Another mystical experience, this time pro-UR

[Tony N]

Hi Nancy, it was given to the apostle Paul "to complete the word of God" (Col.1:25).

We don't need someone listening to familiar spirits to get further ideas beyond what the Bible says.

The idea the spiritist promotes that one has to purifiy oneself or one can't come into God's presence is pure bunk.

The way into God's presence is not by our purification but due to being "in Christ."

But...unless there really is a mistranslation issue...dont certain parts of the bible give an idea of eternal hell, and other of ultimate reconcilliation? I understand what your saying and I kindof agree, but somtimes I think people forget the bible was written BY listening to, what seemed to be, God that inspired them, and reaccounting their interactions with him. thats what the bible is. and some of those books, various accounts...are left out.

Yes, some translations say there is an "eternal hell". But are they proper translations of aionios? Ah, there's the rub.

[Tony N]

Exactly. That is why salted sacrifices has nothing whatsoever to do with Gehenna.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched... For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

For = because.  Connecting thoughts.

The fire of judgment salts.

Zepheniah 3:8 "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal. 9 "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, That all of them may call on the name of the LORD, To serve Him shoulder to shoulder. 10 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, Will bring My offerings. 11 "In that day you will feel no shame Because of all your deeds By which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst Your proud, exulting ones, And you will never again be haughty On My holy mountain. 12 "But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people, And they will take refuge in the name of the LORD. 13 "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong And tell no lies, Nor will a deceitful tongue Be found in their mouths; For they will feed and lie down With no one to make them tremble."

The future remant of Israel
- HAD rebelled against God
- HAD BEEN haughty
- HAD BEEN liars
- ARE cast into the fire of judgment
- ARE devoured by the fire of God's zeal

and EXIT that judgment with
- purified lips
- to call upon the name of the Lord
- to serve Him
- no more lies
- no more decietful tongue
etc.

i.e. salted with "fire" which fire refers to judgment.

So what's happening above?
1. sinners are being cast into fire of judgment
2. righteous people emerging

Sound familiar?

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear

Dear Bobf,
You are making an improper deduction. You see fire in one verse and improperly equate that fire with the fire of Gehenna. The nations that mistreated Christ's brethren are not allowed in the kingdom. Inside that kingdom is Gehenna. In that Gehenna is where dead bodies are dumped and eaten by worms or burned by fire.
The bad apples of Israel also are cast out of the kingdom and away from Jerusalem. They too enter into the fire eonian but not Gehenna.
Also, Gehenna is not a furnace of fire. It is a trash dump. The furnace is used in Scripture as intense persecution of judgment on Israel by other nations.
When Israel was in the furnace and were wailing and gnashing their teeth they were in bondage to Egypt 400 years. They were not in Gehenna.
I don't know how to make it any plainer to you.

[barbierir]

:cloud9: Hi; I want you to know I'm not picking on you here and I thank you for adding some more, but I also have to be honest and tell you from my view it doesn't change the problem. ie. plural voices, being one of the main problems. What this actually is, is the sin of necromancy, which is seeking information from disembodied entities, which are demons impersonating the dead.

I'm sorry if my post may give rise to arguments, I never meant to justify UR on such tales. I agree with you that one must be extremely careful in reading such things but if your opinion is that all mystics must be ignored because they're either liars or deceived by the devil, then I must politely disagree. I prefer to ponder each case carefully to see if it consistent or not with the Word. As said before this different view may depend on our background. What do you think about the mystical experience of George de Benneville or Hannah Whitall Smith ? Were they deceived by the devil?

Second, evil is not, "good never done". Evil is not merely an action or lack of action (works) but the very spirit behind it, the embodiment of all that God isn't. The thief cometh not except to kill, steal and destroy.

I must confess I can't really see the problem here, yes evil is the devil who opposes God and who tries men to do evil actions or not to do good actions (sins of omission).

Renzo

[bobf]

Dear Bobf, You are making an improper deduction. You see fire in one verse and improperly equate that fire with the fire of Gehenna.

1. It is an improper deduction to assume gehenna is used literally by Christ.
2. The only "fire" in the context of Jesus saying everyone must be salted by fire is gehenna fire and the two thoughts are connected by the word "for".
3. The purpose of the Zeph. passage was to provide an example of judgment, likened to fire, salting sinners.

[WhiteWings]

Hi Renzo,

Hi Renzo,

For me personally the main problem with the site you posted and all other similar sites is; how can I know it's true?
If it's totally oposite to the Bible things are clear. It's fake.

But what if it is in total agreement with (your view of) the Bible? Then it can just be fake to. Just write a story based on sound Bible knowledge and it sounds it could be true. But still it's fake. But because it uses sound Bibical principles no harm is done.

The third variant is the most dangerous. It's 99% Biblical. But what about the additional 1%?
Satanic lies?
Misundertanding?
Jesus really revealed a new thing to be shared with the world.


Basicly I'm kinda sceptical about such things. We all dream. About all kind of things. Sometimes about unimportant things like a movie you saw last night. Sometimes about things that are very important for you.

[barbierir]

Regarding the argument about Gehenna I must say that I agree with all the view above at the same time, because I never understood it as carrying only one litteral meaning. To me it is both the garbage dump of Jerusalem AND an allegory of the suffering and purification of the sinners. I don't believe the actual "hell" is called Gehenna or that it has anything to do with that dump. Its name is only a symbolic way to make a spiritual thing understandable with human categories and it can carry different symbolic meanings according to the context.
I think the same is true for many parables, take for instance the parable of Dives, it is both an allegory of the of relation Israel/Gentiles AND an allegory of the retribution of the sinner so much as the judgement, exile and restoration of Israel is both that AND a foreshadow of the judgment, exile and restoration of each individual sinner. I never thought that such meanings could be mutually exclusive, to me they're simply different level or readings that complement each other! Well, I know I'm strange...

Renzo

[Sarah]

Very well put Renzo.

[jabcat]

Agreed Sarah  :thumbsup:.

Hi Renzo,

Hi Renzo,

If it's totally oposite to the Bible things are clear. It's fake.

The third variant is the most dangerous. It's 99% Biblical. But what about the additional 1%?
Satanic lies?
Misundertanding?

Basicly I'm kinda sceptical about such things. We all dream. About all kind of things. Sometimes about unimportant things like a movie you saw last night. Sometimes about things that are very important for you.
I can't speak for every similar website but I think often ordinary dreams are misunderstood for visions/revelations.

Sorry WW, I originally modified your original post above by accident, but restored it...that's why my name's in there as "edited by Jabcat".  No harm done I think, all you initially said is back in there.  My bad  :thumbdown:.


Again, not necessarily specific to this OP, but thoughts in general.  I agree WW, and I was thinking about this very thing.  If something's really really close to being reconcilable to scripture, and just a little off here and there to where it's only discernable to those who are both "searching the scriptures to see if they are true (Bereans)" and are actually then led by the Spirit within those truths...that's perhaps the most dangerous type of deception...hard to detect, but yet another real step in leading the body away from God's truths.  After awhile, there's a cumulative effect, and we find ourselves wandering, believing all sorts of myths and fables..basically, ungrounded..."blown by every wind of doctrine"...

God's blessing, James.

[Tony N]

Dear Bobf, You are making an improper deduction. You see fire in one verse and improperly equate that fire with the fire of Gehenna.

1. It is an improper deduction to assume gehenna is used literally by Christ.
2. The only "fire" in the context of Jesus saying everyone must be salted by fire is gehenna fire and the two thoughts are connected by the word "for".
3. The purpose of the Zeph. passage was to provide an example of judgment, likened to fire, salting sinners.

Concerning "salted with fire"
Wesley wrote:
"Mar 9:49 - Every one - Who does not cut off the offending member, and consequently is cast into [Gehenna], shall be, as it were, salted with fire, preserved, not consumed thereby whereas every acceptable sacrifice shall be salted with another kind of salt, even that of Divine grace, which purifies the soul, (though frequently with pain) and preserves it from corruption."

A.E. Knoch wrote:
And everyone will be salted with fire (Mark 9:49), for these are the two great enemies of corruption. Salt prevents it, fire removes it.


SALTED SACRIFICES

     Every sacrifice offered to God in this scene of corruption and decay must be salted with salt. This must never be lacking (Lev.2:13; Mark 9:49).

49 Since the kingdom has been rejected, entrance into it is necessarily a path of judgment. Salt is a preservative. During the kingdom era corruption will be stayed. The salt that counteracts the corruption of that day will be fire, a judgment. As already elaborated, nothing that offends can enter that kingdom. It must be judged. If not, it will drag down those who harbor it into Gehenna and its fires. (end of quote)

It is perfectly logical to conclude that when Christ said "Gehenna" He meant the literal, physical Gehenna.

The "for" of verse 49 harks back to those who do something worthy of having their dead bodies cast into the literal Gehenna so that the kingdom can be preserved from such foulness.

There is nothing in the Zepheniah passage about being salted with fire.

[bobf]

It is perfectly logical to conclude that when Christ said "Gehenna" He meant the literal, physical Gehenna.

Perfectly logical doesn't make it necessarily right.  It was perfectly logical for Christ's "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again" to be taken literally.

There is nothing in the Zepheniah passage about being salted with fire.

Tony, it doesn't have to say "salt" to say what the salt metaphor refers to.  The people coming out of the fiery judgment in Zeph have the characteristics associated with being salted.

For example:
Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
Zepheniah 3 For then will I turn to the people a pure language...shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth.

So they are salted with fire.

Also, Mark 9 says "FOR EVERYONE will be salted with fire..." not just some, but your literal interpretation says "some dead criminals at the end of the age will have their bodies burned in a dump."

Why would a dead criminal care what happens to his dead body or how long worms are eating it?  Jesus wasn't warning his disciples not to become criminals, he was warning them not to sin lest they be judged.

[WhiteWings]

Sorry WW, I originally modified your original post above by accident, but restored it...that's why my name's in there as "edited by Jabcat".  No harm done I think, all you initially said is back in there.  My bad  :thumbdown:.

No worries. I've been Mod/Admin myself and know that the quote and edit button can be mis-clicked.  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

 :mpardon:  thanks

[Tony N]

It is perfectly logical to conclude that when Christ said "Gehenna" He meant the literal, physical Gehenna.

Perfectly logical doesn't make it necessarily right.  It was perfectly logical for Christ's "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again" to be taken literally.

There is nothing in the Zepheniah passage about being salted with fire.

Tony, it doesn't have to say "salt" to say what the salt metaphor refers to.  The people coming out of the fiery judgment in Zeph have the characteristics associated with being salted.

For example:
Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
Zepheniah 3 For then will I turn to the people a pure language...shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth.

So they are salted with fire.

Also, Mark 9 says "FOR EVERYONE will be salted with fire..." not just some, but your literal interpretation says "some dead criminals at the end of the age will have their bodies burned in a dump."

Why would a dead criminal care what happens to his dead body or how long worms are eating it?  Jesus wasn't warning his disciples not to become criminals, he was warning them not to sin lest they be judged.

Why do you think I would think a dead criminal would care what happens to his dead body? Did I say they would care? The point is that "everyone" of the context which Jesus just spoke of, "everyone" who does not take care what he does and what he thinks is in danger of Gehenna when the kingdom comes. The "salted with fire" has to do with their bodies being burned up so as to preserve the kingdom from their foulness. It's not that difficult, Bob.

Jesus was not talking about everyone in the whole world was going to end up in Gehenna if they broke the laws He laid down for the kingdom. This only has to do with those IN the kingdom during that time. It is not for the Jews today nor for the non-jewish nations in the future.

[bobf]

Why do you think I would think a dead criminal would care what happens to his dead body? Did I say they would care?

Because (according to my understanding of your literal interpretation) is the gist Christ's warning to the disciples runs like this:  "Do X or your dead body might end up in a garbage dump full of worms at the end of the age along with the rest of the criminals."

When a warning is given, the audience of the warning MUST CARE about the warning.  Why would the disciples care about the dispostion of their dead bodies some time off in the future.

The point is that "everyone" of the context which Jesus just spoke of, "everyone" who does not take care what he does and what he thinks is in danger of Gehenna when the kingdom comes. The "salted with fire" has to do with their bodies being burned up so as to preserve the kingdom from their foulness. It's not that difficult, Bob.

I don't find it difficult at all Tony.  My interpretation makes complete sense to me.

Gehenna is a symbol for downward judgment, wrath of God, reaping what is sown to the flesh
Gehenna literally is a fiery dump full of worms consuming dead bodies.
Gehenna spritually is fiery judgment that consumes the soul of a person who worships the flesh

Jesus is warning his disciples because it (judgment, wrath of God) not only could happend to them, buy it absolutely would happen to them if they refused to heed the warning.

End of the age literally is the end of an actual time period in history.
End of the age spiritually is when God decides it's time for judgment to begin, within the lifetime of a person who is sowing to the flesh.

For example:
1 Corinthianbs 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Turning the man over to judgment (gehenna) for the destruction (worms & fire) of the flesh (carnal mind worshipping the flesh) that the spirit may be saved (via salting fire) in the day of the LORD (when the judgment fulfills it's purpose).

So Tony, that is the symbolism I see.  It is not found in the letter, so there is no way for me to prove it.

Every tree that does not bear fruit will be cut down and burned
= Every person who does not do what Christ says will be judged by Christ's Word at the appointed time

and when God's judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteosness.

Warning ---> Warning Ignored ---> Judgment (Fire, Day of the Lord) ---> Learn Rightesouness ---> Salted by Fire

What you see as literal events in history, I see as shadows of spiritual events in the lifetime of a person whom God has chosen to draw to Christ, and to conform to the image of Christ.

My view does not exclude a literal view as well.  It simply says that the literal events are shadows of spiritual events.


God bless,
Bob

[sven]

i think there is too much speculation about Gehenna, Gehenna is literally the Valley of Hinnom - the rest is speculation, the dead are judged in front of the White Throne as the bible says.

[bobf]

i think there is too much speculation about Gehenna, Gehenna is literally the Valley of Hinnom - the rest is speculation, the dead are judged in front of the White Throne as the bible says.

It is also speculation to say that Jesus was speaking literally.

[sven]

yeah but Jeremiah said, the Valley of Hinnom will be called the Valley of slaughter, he didn't said, it will be called "hell" or "purgatory"

it seems also that Gehenna refers to the body not to the soul, in my opinion Gehenna is not a "realm of souls" as Sheol is but the Valley of past and future "slaughter"

When a warning is given, the audience of the warning MUST CARE about the warning.  Why would the disciples care about the dispostion of their dead bodies some time off in the future.

Ecclesiastes 6,3

If a man beget a hundred sons, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, but his soul be not filled with good, and also he have no burial, I say an untimely birth is better than he.

as far is i know a proper burial was important for ancient Hebrews, i think some believed, people that had be burnt won't be resurected

@ topic, the view hold by this woman reminds be a bit of the jewish concept of purgatory, though i think it's unbiblical i have some sympathy for this concept

as i said before, to be not accused of beeing unbiblical we should reject such experiences, but it's a good anti-argument against those who use similar experiences to "prove" hell, at least it's interesting to discuss about.

[Tony N]

Sven, you are correct concerning the shame associated with not being burried after one dies.
Another shame was when someone had lived a dispicable life such as some kings did in Hebrew history and their bodies or bones were taken out of their tombs and burnt to ashes and then scattered.

For a Jew to hear Jesus's words concerning Gehenna they would also remember Isaiah's prophecy of his last chapter and last verse. The shame of having one's dead body cast out into the open to be viewed at by family, friends and the like would be extremely humiliating especially when they see the worms eating up the body or the flames burning away the flesh.

Gehenna will be used as the ultimate preservative against the doers of evil during the millennium as the lake of fire will be during the new earth. There is no such thing as a "spiritual Gehenna."

[bobf]

yeah but Jeremiah said, the Valley of Hinnom will be called the Valley of slaughter, he didn't said, it will be called "hell" or "purgatory"]

it seems also that Gehenna refers to the body not to the soul, in my opinion Gehenna is not a "realm of souls" as Sheol is but the Valley of past and future "slaughter"

I don't see that that matters if a metaphor is being used.  We all know that literally-speaking gehenna deals with dead flesh.  That doesn't mean that a metaphor employing gehenna as a symbol also deals with dead-flesh or a body rather than a soul.  It would be like saying that since fire is about heat and consumption of physical matter so it can't be a metaphor for judgment or trying of faith which deal with the soul.

Besides Jesus said to fear Him who can destory body AND SOUL in gehenna.

[Sarah]

Gehenna will be used as the ultimate preservative against the doers of evil during the millennium as the lake of fire will be during the new earth. There is no such thing as a "spiritual Gehenna."

I'm confused. Do you believe that this valley in Israel is a place where evil doers during the time of Christ are purified or kept until a later judgement?  And what is the judgement?

[peacemaker]

This is not Burger King  :king: no one can have it their way literally speaking!
But we can speak the language of the day, adding salt to the flame broiled whopper.

peacemaker

[sven]

i must admit

And if your eye makes you sin, pluck it out! Better that you should be one-eyed but enter the Kingdom of God, rather than keep both eyes and be thrown into Gei-Hinnom, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 Indeed, everyone is going to be salted with fire.

this verse i have my problems with, does the fire everyone is salted with refer to Gehenna?

[bobf]

i must admit

And if your eye makes you sin, pluck it out! Better that you should be one-eyed but enter the Kingdom of God, rather than keep both eyes and be thrown into Gei-Hinnom, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 Indeed, everyone is going to be salted with fire.

this verse i have my problems with, does the fire everyone is salted with refer to Gehenna?

Why not.... fire is a symbol for judgment and judgment salts.

[Tony N]

This is not Burger King  :king: no one can have it their way literally speaking!
But we can speak the language of the day, adding salt to the flame broiled whopper.

peacemaker

Dear peacemaker,
In the really old Testament the person bringing a sacrifice was to salt it. This was so it would not putrify prior to being a burnt offering. God did not want any putrifying sacrifice. The salt was to preserve the sacrifice.

Carry this idea into the New Testament.

(Mat 5:13) You are the salt of the earth. Now, if the salt should be made insipid, with what will it be salted? For nothing does it still avail except to be cast outside, to be trampled by men.

Being the salt of the earth they were what preserves.

(Mar 9:49) For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt. "

You could say that everyone will be preserved with fire just as every sacrifice will be salted with salt or preserved with salt.


(Mar 9:50)  Ideal is the salt, yet if the salt should be becoming savorless, with what will you be seasoning it? Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another."

Salt can also be used to make food more savorable. By having salt in yourself you are making your self more savorable, more palatable.

(Luk 14:34)  Ideal, then, is salt. Yet if even the salt should be made insipid, with what shall it be seasoned?

Don't lose your savor.

(Col 4:6)  your word being always with grace, seasoned with salt, perceiving how you must answer each one."

Make your words so that they have more savor and are more palatable to those you talk to.

What is really sad is that often I have not seasoned my words with salt but often have made my words not very palatable. BTW, it doesn't have to be iodized salt.  :laughing7:

[peacemaker]

This is not Burger King  :king: no one can have it their way literally speaking!
But we can speak the language of the day, adding salt to the flame broiled whopper.

peacemaker

Dear peacemaker,
In the really old Testament the person bringing a sacrifice was to salt it. This was so it would not putrify prior to being a burnt offering. God did not want any putrifying sacrifice. The salt was to preserve the sacrifice.

Carry this idea into the New Testament.

(Mat 5:13) You are the salt of the earth. Now, if the salt should be made insipid, with what will it be salted? For nothing does it still avail except to be cast outside, to be trampled by men.

Being the salt of the earth they were what preserves.

(Mar 9:49) For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt. "

You could say that everyone will be preserved with fire just as every sacrifice will be salted with salt or preserved with salt.


(Mar 9:50)  Ideal is the salt, yet if the salt should be becoming savorless, with what will you be seasoning it? Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another."

Salt can also be used to make food more savorable. By having salt in yourself you are making your self more savorable, more palatable.

(Luk 14:34)  Ideal, then, is salt. Yet if even the salt should be made insipid, with what shall it be seasoned?

Don't lose your savor.

(Col 4:6)  your word being always with grace, seasoned with salt, perceiving how you must answer each one."

Make your words so that they have more savor and are more palatable to those you talk to.

What is really sad is that often I have not seasoned my words with salt but often have made my words not very palatable. BTW, it doesn't have to be iodized salt.  :laughing7:

Now that response had spirit and character, a topical antiseptic, not lacking in taste.

Although salt was well-regarded in its day, there was no reason for a sacrifice, especially, if we are seasoned with the Spirit of truth:

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

The uptake of monovalent anions (negative charges) of such an iodide salt (spirit) can happen in two seconds, like Paul on the road to Damascus; a (blue) light. Interesting how this corresponds in nature, character, or function with Nathan's post on lightning. It also applies to the red blood cells of life ... and through the secretion of saliva in anticipation of seasoned food.

However, this is only food for thought to sustain growth, repair, and a vital processes.

Something that nourishes without being insipid!

Peacemaker