Universalism, the banned subject

[SpiritDriven]

Hey Gang!

I have been banned from my share of forums as well, for talking about Universal Salvation and Reconcilliation through Christ Jesus, being the Will of God.

I have the distinct feeling however, that our place is to visit these forums never the less, because there are those who attend these forums who are predestined to hear and believe the Good News !

Do not ever feel bad about being banned from these Forums, the Pharisees stoned Stephen to death, because what Stephen had to say greived them.

The Christian Pharisee of today does not want to hear about how you should Love your enemies because God already does.
They want to hear how God is going to torture their enemies forever....

Grace and Peace to you all....always!

[NinjaWizards777]

The Christian Pharisee of today does not want to hear about how you should Love your enemies because God already does.
They want to hear how God is going to torture their enemies forever....

This is kindof a gross generalization.


Not everyone that believes in ET is like "OH YEAH PEOPLE GET TO BE SEPERATED FROM GOD FOREVER SERVES THEM RIGHT HA!!!!*points finger*. Ive been a christian 7 years and until recently didnt even KNOW of any alternitive view besides ET...and I wasnt like that.

I think people(including myself) have problems looking at the bible in diffrent ways than theyve been taught...they cant look past the filter of mainstream christianity not because their "bad" people or selfish christians...but because its uncomfortable

[WhiteWings]

In my short and minimal religious/UR experience I've learned that the answers will likely be:


What is the gospel?
-> They cut and paste the Protestant view.

What kind of God creates hell as the default destination for mankind?
-> I was created for the devil but humankind choose to join the devil.

What kind of God gives me the power to damn myself eternally?
-> A loving God that respects the choice of His creation.

I have heard that you go to hell if you don't believe in the trinity, is that the same as "I want to be in constant agony and mental torment for all eternity?"
-> God justice/love/... is infinite therefore his wrath/justice has to be infinite too.


Can you trust that kind of God?
-> YES!

If God had forknowledge, why did He create hell?
-> Because people chose that path.
-> It will be reveiled later on.
-> Because he has every right to do with His creation what He wishes too.
-> You don't see because Satan blinded you.

If God is Love, why did He create Hell?
-> See above. Plus because part of His creation doesn't want to be with Him.

If God is all powerful, why did He create Hell?
-> That's not for us to question.

What's so great about heaven if my family is in hell?
-> You will enjoy knowing perfect justice has been done.

Sarah,
Don't get me wrong. You made a list with good questions. All I want to show is that its easy to turn and twist to whatever your denomination is.

[Chris]

David Taylor, another head mod over at bibleforums.org, had this to say:

Peter's away right now, but here's the short answer.

UR has been debunked on this forum...it's been debunked a hundred times, maybe a thousand times.

The scriptures involving it have been presented, explained and reexplained.

The reason it has become a topic of non-Advancement, is because we as a Mainstream Protestant body agree with the historical stance the mainstream Christian church has held in regards to this view since the apostolic days, that it is a heresy, that could potential lead people to eternal hell....one of which UR proponents don't even believe in.

We do allow it to be debunked, we just do not allow it to be advanced and promoted, because this isn't a UR advancement Forum...just like it isn't a Pro-Koran or Pro-David Koresh forum either. Pretty simple.

If this were a Chevy website, our focus would be on promoting Chevys, not promoting Fords...so when a Ford guy wanted to show up and argue and debate against Chevys in favor of Fords, it wouldn't be beneficial to our membership.

This is a Mainstream Protestant Membership, which like historic Christianity before us, doesn't accept Universalism therefore, we don't allow it to be advanced and argued.

For those who want to debunk it, there are dozens and dozens of threads in our archives that do this. Using the [Search] feature isn't difficult.

Similarly, bringing up a new topic asking why it is a heresy and why it should be rejected is fine. That happens all the time in both the Bible-Chat forum, the Apologetics Forum, and the World Religions Forum.

Where the problem lies with topics like Universalism, is when folks want to come here and argue in favor of, and advance it or other unChristian doctrines that are against the rules because of all I've stated above.

If someone came here from another website and they reacted the way your quotes say, that tells me they weren't coming here to find out why UR is wrong and should be rejected, but rather to argue and debate UR. Otherwise, their attitude and reaction would have been completely different. They guy came here with the idea that this board couldn't argue away UR, therefore it must be right, and we dismiss the topic because we don't have an answer for it.

Wrong.

There are pages and pages and pages in the archives that do answer why it is a rejectable and damnable heresy.

Start searching if you want, but good grief cut out this carrying on about UR. Someone who wants the truth will seek it in a meek, humble, thoughtful, and understanding manner...not go out throwing around words and phrases like: "they refuse", "it is silly", "they accused me", "they're judgmental", there not "thinking", There not allowing speech "freely", "are arrogant", "can't wriggle", are "weak", etc...

Anyone coming here peddling comments like that are simply here to sew discord, not to search for truth and become a edifiable part of the fellowship here.

That's it.

He's obviously not familiar with actual church history...  :grin:

(emphsais mine)

The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, p. 96


The earliest system of Universalistic theology was by Clement of Alexandria (q.v.), who was the head of the theological school in that city until 202 A.D. His successor in the school was the great Origen (q.v.) who was the most distinguished advocate of this doctrine in all time. His mind has something of the largeness of Plato combined with Christian piety, and his influence was felt for many centuries throughout the East and to some extent in the West. The next great philosophical theologian in the East was Gregory of Nyssa (q.v.) Then came Theodore Mopsuestia (q.v.), distinguished as the promulgator of the grammatico-historical exegesis (see EXEGESIS OR HERMENEUTICS, III., 3; and ANTIOCH, SCHOOL OF), and of a Biblical scientific theology containing a portion of the theory of evolution applied to the history of mankind. His influence for some centuries was more extensive than that of Augustine. Johannes Cassianus (q.v.) should also be mentioned. He was the author of Semipelagianism (q.v.). Under the instruction of these great teachers many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church (q.v.) until after 500 A.D. was inclined to it.

In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.

Universalism was not considered/labeled "heresy" until after 500AD -AFTER- the move was made from Greek to Latin, particularly in the west, with the help of Augustine.

[SpiritDriven]

The Christian Pharisee of today does not want to hear about how you should Love your enemies because God already does.
They want to hear how God is going to torture their enemies forever....

This is kindof a gross generalization.

Not at all, the Christain Phrisees are a hard nosed lot high to low, because it is God hardening them....be assured when you encounter sombody God is hardening, you will know.

Not everyone that believes in ET is like "OH YEAH PEOPLE GET TO BE SEPERATED FROM GOD FOREVER SERVES THEM RIGHT HA!!!!*points finger*. Ive been a christian 7 years and until recently didnt even KNOW of any alternitive view besides ET...and I wasnt like that.

True....most believe God is going to be mercyless to their Enemies and then turn around and show mercy to them, because of false teaching, but the Holy Spirit still Guides those God is not hardening to Forums like Tent Maker

I think people(including myself) have problems looking at the bible in diffrent ways than theyve been taught...they cant look past the filter of mainstream christianity not because their "bad" people or selfish christians...but because its uncomfortable

Agreed Christianity has become a Cult in that regard....and is the worst offender by far when it comes to....programing.... cult members in what to believe.

[NinjaWizards777]

The Christian Pharisee of today does not want to hear about how you should Love your enemies because God already does.
They want to hear how God is going to torture their enemies forever....

This is kindof a gross generalization.

Not at all, the Christain Phrisees are a hard nosed lot high to low, because it is God hardening them....be assured when you encounter sombody God is hardening, you will know.

Not everyone that believes in ET is like "OH YEAH PEOPLE GET TO BE SEPERATED FROM GOD FOREVER SERVES THEM RIGHT HA!!!!*points finger*. Ive been a christian 7 years and until recently didnt even KNOW of any alternitive view besides ET...and I wasnt like that.

True....most believe God is going to be mercyless to their Enemies and then turn around and show mercy to them, because of false teaching, but the Holy Spirit still Guides those God is not hardening to Forums like Tent Maker

I think people(including myself) have problems looking at the bible in diffrent ways than theyve been taught...they cant look past the filter of mainstream christianity not because their "bad" people or selfish christians...but because its uncomfortable

Agreed Christianity has become a Cult in that regard....and is the worst offender by far when it comes to....programing.... cult members in what to believe.

ET being "false teaching" is an opinion, just as much as UR being damnable heresy is an opinion. Neither side has really convinced me of anything because both are full of pride in thinking they just "understand the scriptures because God has enlightend them more than most"

[Apocatastasis]

Neither side has really convinced me of anything because both are full of pride in thinking they just "understand the scriptures because God has enlightend them more than most"

Indeed.

[martincisneros]

Currently, I am posting at bibleforums.org, where one of the head mods, "project peter" recently asserted that UR is a damnable doctrine and that Christian Universalists are not relly Christians.  When I asked him to explain his reasoning, he basically said that he would not waste his time explaining himself to me.  What is wrong with these people?

What is wrong with these people?  Depends on which people you're talking about.  Many Christians aren't scared of how things will turn out, but are frightened of Christian Universalists that they've seen that aren't sound in other areas of Biblical doctrine.  That's not universally the case, but the noisier ones on other forums tend to have a very sketchy understanding of other things that the Scriptures say and many times the areas of Biblical doctrine they know the least about are the areas that they decide to be as equally critical of as they are of ET to where they lose absolutely all of their credibility as people with a sound Scriptural perspective that's backed with a sound lifestyle that's Scripturally based and Holy Spirit POSSESSED. 

I'm sincerely the only Christian Universalist that I know of right now that EMPHASIZES the Blood of Christ, repentance, what the Scriptures say about proving one's repentance by one's deeds, and being conformed to the image of God's dear Son NOW.  A "someday they'll repent" message doesn't cut it either Scripturally or to any sound mind.  Repentance is a NOW word that must be done in the NOW.  I'm not saying that I'm the only Christian Universalist that believes these things.  I'm saying that I'm the only one that I know of that's continuously vocal about it online whether on boards or via emails or on my own webpages. 

Andrew Murray and Andrew Jukes are cherished by all segments of the Body of Christ because they focused on enriching the lives of everyone everywhere on more than just the restitution of all things.  William Barclay was the same way, that although few might agree with all of his conclusions, you at least know that he devoted a fair amount of attention to the whole New Testament.  Karl Barth ditto.  George MacDonald ditto. 

If I mentioned a couple dozen folks on Christian television that are as deeply persuaded [dogmatically persuaded] of the Universal Restoration as I am, for equally weighty Scriptural reasons, many people who visit these boards would be absolutely furious at them for not trumpeting the Universal Restoration from the rooftops rather than celebrating that they're leavening the Body of Christ on the areas that there's currently open doors into their hearts for.  A Biblically maturing Christian would celebrate their soundness in faith in other areas beyond eschatology and a narrow focus on this one aspect of soteriology. 

There's a gullible idea among many of us that presupposes that God doesn't want them to be effective in ministry or that somehow the only way they can be effective in ministry is by being outed about being voracious readers of a couple of UR websites and many UR books.  Teaching people how to sow and reap effectively and how to inherit the blessing is as much of a part of St. Paul's Gospel as the Universal Restoration and in our own ranks there's the equal problem of teaching "another Gospel" because of not being sound in all of it. 

Teaching people how to live in newness of life, daily presenting themselves to God as alive from the dead and their members as instruments of righteousness that are under grace and cleansed of all unrighteousness, is as much the Gospel of the New Testament as 1Corinthians 15:22.  Being the express image of the invisible Christ is just as much St. Paul's focus as the reconciliation of all seen and unseen principalities and powers through the Blood of Christ.  Show them over a broad enough period of time that we're actually Christians and sound in all areas of Scripture and they may actually someday invite us back to their websites in order to deal with the difference between ourselves and the UUA that's mostly pagan. 

Show them that we can talk about all areas of Christian doctrine without just having a point to prove about Hell and they'll even GIVE US our own television and radio programs because their hearts really are [generally speaking] burning for the recovery of the sheep that have gone astray and are in the pigpens of life with broken relationships, broken dreams, broken minds, broken emotions, broken finances, broken bodies, etc.

[Apocatastasis]

Good post, martin.  I have noticed the same things.  A well-rounded Christian Universalist is hard to come by.

I'm curious about something you said:

A "someday they'll repent" message doesn't cut it either Scripturally or to any sound mind.  Repentance is a NOW word that must be done in the NOW

. 

Are you saying that post-mortem repentance is a false idea?

[Sarah]

Sarah,
Don't get me wrong. You made a list with good questions. All I want to show is that its easy to turn and twist to whatever your denomination is.

I would expect those answers,parroting doctrine, but the mental gymnastics is astounding!
ex;
If God had forknowledge, why did He create hell?
-> Because people chose that path.
    This is circular reasoning, people chose hell because God chose it to be the  
    alternative option.
-> It will be reveiled later on. Cop out! In other words "I don't have the answer"
   
-> Because he has every right to do with His creation what He wishes too.
    Yes, but when He chose to create hell as heaven's default, my service to Him is out of fear and distrust if I'm honest.
-> You don't see because Satan blinded you. Just weird.

Martin has some very good points. Show yourself a follower of Christ before trying to win them to UR.

[martincisneros]

Are you saying that post-mortem repentance is a false idea?

No, I'm saying for us to let the New Testament be our example that although it's mentioned, it's not the focus.  St. Paul who was perhaps the clearest writer in the New Testament about it was an "in your face" preacher about repenting NOW, having faith in our Lord Jesus NOW -- not because of what He'll someday do as His greatest achievement in abolishing anything/everything that's ever or will ever be called death, but because God raised Him from the dead so that at this point He alone rightly discerns the states and statuses of the living and the dead. 

Thank God that there's a safety net and that if someone's last act in this life is to fall into sin that they're not thereby damned for all of eternity -- not because of eternal security, but because of the ransom for all that's ever-living to make intercession for all.  Some of the ETers want to single out suicide as the only sin that one could possibly commit as a Christian as the last sin they commit that they can't repent of, but what if they lied to their spouse about their level of physical pain and discomfort because of a disease or a horrific accident in their dying moments?  By the logic of the view of many Christians regarding suicide those Christians died in a sin of lying that was motivated by wanting to comfort those that would continue to live this life after they were gone are now irrevocably bound for an eternal death. 

What if during war time someone's last act in some other part of the world is to steal a morsel of food while the bombs are falling and though they were sincere Christians all of their lives; perhaps holier than we'll ever be, yet in that last fateful moment they were overcome by their hunger and weighing it verses an immediate opportunity for something in an abandoned kitchen or home?  On the mainstream paradigm of ET, then all hope is lost.  Thankfully, we have something better to share with their bereaved families at the funeral and in the years following when their stomach's in knots as they're discovering the circumstances that their loved one died in.

But those aren't the issues related to most people's lives and the authors of the New Testament under the direction of THE AUTHOR of the New Covenant made passing comments along those lines while focusing on successful Christian living that's deeply rooted in thanksgiving, every care being cast upon Him without exception and without qualification, and any imaginations that are directly opposed to the promises being cast down and brought into obedience to Christ Jesus their High Priest. 

The focus was on successfully overcoming their enemies with love and taking control of their minds, bodies, finances, and nations with the finished work of Christ rather than in spelling out every possible dealing of God with those that died unrepentant.  They'd simply point us back to the Old Testament for the types and shadows to explore on any questions that they didn't have time to get into in their writings since the patterns of God dealing with sins to the third and fourth generation were already there, as well as all of the laws of restitution, and the different times and seasons when we could look with anticipation towards [in this life] for cleansing and the annihilation of all of our debts and other bondages. 

The principle of Scripture is resurrection.  As our lives are figuratively pulled out of the pit by the anointing of God that we're drawing upon Jesus's Priesthood and the Holy Spirit within us for, we ought to at the exact same time be expecting the anointing to flow from us to the ground beneath our feet in the emptying of Hell of more and more souls.  It's not one or the other, either the practical or the metaphysical.  The anointing corrodes and destroys EVERY yoke.  But Romans 10 says not to look to the grave for a resurrection but to look within one's self for the resurrection of anointings of previous eras so that both the living and the dead in our lives can be dealt with because as Paul explains later in the New Testament, we're the Body of the Anointed One.  Well, we can't be the Body of the Anointed One without being the Body of that Anointing which Isaiah 10:27 calls burden removing, yoke removing, and yoke destroying power.

Perhaps it's my Word of Faith heritage that's clarified this in my mind recently, but sowing and reaping happens here.  The Biblical pattern is for the anointing to flow to and through the living to affect all things living and death.  Our focus shouldn't be on God saving those that have died in their sin, but upon God's power flowing to us, in us, and through us until the gates of Hell can't prevail against us and our raising of the dead as His Body in the earth that are doing greater things than He did according to John 14:12.  Our focus shouldn't be on debating whether or not the dead can remain in Hell, but upon whether or not we're going to leave 'em there: LAZARUS, COME FORTH!!

[Cardinal]

  Our focus shouldn't be on debating whether or not the dead can remain in Hell, but upon whether or not we're going to leave 'em there: LAZARUS, COME FORTH!!

:cloud9: EXACTLY!  :thumbsup: What good are all the doctrines we know if we can't get to a place in Him and by Him and through Him, that the POWER of those things we know are released? Might as well go back to reading the morning newspaper (only) as I used to do, if that is all there is, or ever gonna be. My  :2c:  Blessings...

[ScarletWren]

The problem that I see with that Martin, is that those espousing ET, use the fear of hell first and foremost to get people to repent. So that's how they come at either getting someone to turn to Christ, or to spur their fellows on to good works. Their take on the good news message is that, we all deserve hell but hey, Jesus paid the price IF we accept what he did.  So there's not a whole lot of agreement on the what and what Jesus actually saved us from.  How can you have a legitimate conversation with them about sanctification? 

I remember a series a former minister did on grace/works.  The first 2 weeks he did a splendid job of speaking of how it was all God's work that brings us to salvation, then the third week he started in on the works but he could not see how that contradicted his first messages.  It's just like how I read where they preach a back door salvation by works message.  Calvinism is simpler in a way, but unless you have works it proves you weren't really saved.

I've been on many boards and just read and can't find much to share because their focus isn't on Christ doing the work in us it's more about what we do to either deserve or repay Him and make ourselves worthy of this great gift He offers us.   Also, so many I've been to pretty much discuss the different doctrines--Trinity, consciousness after death, etc.

Obviously you've found someone willing to discuss deeper things but how effective is it when you're coming from different premises?  If they accept that you're universalistic, and then want to discuss walking in a more intimate way with God, that could work some, but usually once they know where you're coming from, they don't trust anything you say, that's been my experience.

[Doc]

I agree with both Martin and Scarlet Wren.  :sigh:

Martin, you're absolutely right. Scarlet Wren is also right, though. If you're coming from completely different POV's, there will probably be mistrust.



Unfortunately, there will always be resistance to the truth (well, at least in this age); particularly it seems, among those who should know better.

[SpiritDriven]

The Christian Pharisee of today does not want to hear about how you should Love your enemies because God already does.
They want to hear how God is going to torture their enemies forever....

This is kindof a gross generalization.

Not at all, the Christain Phrisees are a hard nosed lot high to low, because it is God hardening them....be assured when you encounter sombody God is hardening, you will know.

Not everyone that believes in ET is like "OH YEAH PEOPLE GET TO BE SEPERATED FROM GOD FOREVER SERVES THEM RIGHT HA!!!!*points finger*. Ive been a christian 7 years and until recently didnt even KNOW of any alternitive view besides ET...and I wasnt like that.

True....most believe God is going to be mercyless to their Enemies and then turn around and show mercy to them, because of false teaching, but the Holy Spirit still Guides those God is not hardening to Forums like Tent Maker

I think people(including myself) have problems looking at the bible in diffrent ways than theyve been taught...they cant look past the filter of mainstream christianity not because their "bad" people or selfish christians...but because its uncomfortable

Agreed Christianity has become a Cult in that regard....and is the worst offender by far when it comes to....programing.... cult members in what to believe.

ET being "false teaching" is an opinion, just as much as UR being damnable heresy is an opinion. Neither side has really convinced me of anything because both are full of pride in thinking they just "understand the scriptures because God has enlightend them more than most"

Et is a False teaching....full stop.

To be labelled as a Universalist is a tag.....we are actualy the especially of believers mentioned in I Timothy 4

That God is the saviour of all Man Kind especially of believers is declared as a fact in Gods word, Universalist theology as it is labelled, is the actual Good News of the Gospel.

Not only that, the labelled Universalist Theology is the only theology that can be prooven beyond doubt from declarations in Gods word that, first proceeded out of the mouth of God.

Any other teaching is based on Demonic and false teaching, forwarned about at the begining of I Timothy 4.

More importantly, it is not so much the theology it is more what God reveals to us personaly.
That we see backed up in his word.

We recognise the Sovereign Power and Will of God at all times in all things.

Peace

[Akira Takahashi]

I think RaptureReady bans the subject as well.  It stinks because my mom loves it on there.