Rebuiding of the Temple unscriptural?

[Nathan]

For me, there will be a day when order is restored as it was in the garden.  Where spirit will be as predominant as natural is now . .and the natural will be as invisible, but still very much existing, as spiritual is now.  There will be a time when "every knee WILL bow"  I'm not a full preterist either . . I think there are still some things yet to manifest.  But I think all things are already completed . .it all depends on what realm you choose to dwell in.

Hi Nathan,

Do you believe there has already been one resurrection,..{besides Christ}..but that there will be another one? How many resurrections do you think there are?

Do you believe there will be a judgment day, or has that already happened?

Do you think (Zech. chapter 14) has already been fulfilled?

CHB

Confession time . . .
I've seen this conversation before and I've stayed out of it.  And the reason why is, I really don't know.  When I share, it's because usually, God has shown me something in one area or another . . .I have my favorites . . and Revelation "is" one of them, but even then, I can only share what I see.  And when it comes to multiple resurrections I may be a few showers short of seeing the intent of it's purpose.  In other words, nothing has dropped in my spirit on the issue.  

All I see with it is, Resurrection was THE reason why Christ came.  But death and burial is all the carnal mind dwells on.  I've said this before as well . . that Jesus didn't come just to die for sin . .but he came to give resurrection life.  But in order to do that, he first had to die.  So resurrection is a spiritual experience for me.  And what happens in the spirit, affects the flesh.  When I read you guys as you converse with each other . . .the conversations between Kim, Taf, Rose, Cardinal, Willie, Bob, Zeek and others cause a quickening in me that as Kim has stated more than once . . these experiences and feelings are so hard to put into words.  But when you guys begin to revelate . . . those are seeds that resurrect.  And this quickening I experience, is a result of that resurrecting message that manifests as the conversations play out.

So in that sense, Christ has resurrected, is resurrecting, and continues to resurrect.  

As far as the text of "this is the first resurrection" or whatever it actually says  . .I can't really say because as i mentioned earlier about Cardinal's explanation on how the Spirit  .  .jeeze . . how'd she put that, I forgot already and I'm the one that ranted and raved over it when she said it.  I'm gonna cheat and repaste what she wrote . . .

in the beginning the Word defines your experience with the Spirit, but after a while the Spirit defines your experience with Word  I just LOVE that!!!

So again, to dissect that piece, I've not been led into it to that degree as some others have been.  I'm wondering if more, or maybe "different" emphasis on the word "first" might include the idea that it's the "chief" resurrection, rather than a numerical resurrection.  I don't know if that fits or not without reading the whole context on it.

But "if" there is going to be a world-wide resurrection . . where is that going to take place do you think?  In the flesh?  Or in the spirit?  If it is in the spirit, then I'd lean toward it happening in the NOW while we are actively being intimate with the Father and he with us that his resurrection nature manifests itself through us as a result.  Food for thought.

[Nathan]

I'm with you man, until I learn to be content with now, I'll never be happy with what's still yet to come. 

and the interesting thing is, the more I try to be content with "now", the less content I am.

But the more I am willing to let myself be "not content with now", but be aware that i'm not; Peace is released. 

weird paradox. 

blessings

Now for me . . ."that" is how God thinks.  Very well said my friend!  I actually get what you're saying!!  It's all about being in that "I must decrease that He may increase" mentality.  As soon as you stop trying, the ability to achieve whatever it was you were "trying" to acheive manifests in you.  This is some really good stuff Zeek.

[Zeek]

I'm with you man, until I learn to be content with now, I'll never be happy with what's still yet to come. 

and the interesting thing is, the more I try to be content with "now", the less content I am.

But the more I am willing to let myself be "not content with now", but be aware that i'm not; Peace is released. 

weird paradox. 

blessings

Now for me . . ."that" is how God thinks.  Very well said my friend!  I actually get what you're saying!!  It's all about being in that "I must decrease that He may increase" mentality.  As soon as you stop trying, the ability to achieve whatever it was you were "trying" to acheive manifests in you.  This is some really good stuff Zeek.

It's kind of like the more we try, the more "fig leaves" we cover ourselves with; and the more we hide the part that needs to be exposed/naked before Him.   

But when we "give up", and allow ourselves to be "naked", to be human (fears, emotions and all) before the Father ; we are clothed with HIM. 

thanks brother.

Z

[Nathan]

Yup, yup, yup!!
God "knew" we were naked from the beginning.  Not once did he imply it was shameful.  But the moment they acted on their own observations, they manifested their faith, but it was not faith in God . . .it was faith in the carnality of knowledge . . .dark faith.  "Who told you, you were naked" . . .that was one of the first revelations that started me down this long and liberating road from law into life.

[martincisneros]

Do you think (Zech. chapter 14) has already been fulfilled?

Zechariah 14 is one of those messes of Scripture where, like the New Testament does partial quotations of the Old Testament because they were dealing in partial fulfillments at that time, like when Jesus was preaching in Nazareth it wasn't yet the day of veangeance spoken of in Isaiah 61, so He stopped quoting the text in mid-verse, and then with Isaiah 61 the day of vengeance was on the Cross, and we're the ministers that close the chapter that are supposed to be boasting in having the wealth of the nations, not just the nations themselves but their actual $$$$$ so that with that we can feed them with the covenant heritage that God has for them in all of the ways that they're currently feeding on the devil with Hollywood, their internet sites, their magazines, their DVDs, etc.  Takes beaucoup $$$$$$$$ when you're going to disciple nations as we're called to do in this hour, whether we like it or not!  Zechariah 14 is a chapter that covers as much as 8,000 to 12,000 years because it includes statements about the New Earth and then later about the all in all existence.  It covers 70AD, as well as Armageddon in the next few years, as well as a reference to the sacrifices that have been going on all of this time, as well as a fleeting reference to the Hosea 2:18 Covenant that's relevant from this decade onwards.  Zechariah is one of those prophets like Isaiah and Hosea that saw the whole plan of God from beginning to all in all.  But Zechariah's prophecies, like many of the rest of the prophecies in the Bible, go all over the place rather than have a modern Western expectation of a clearly distinguished beginning, middle, and end without having to hunt for it.

[CHB]

Thanks Martin, Nathan,

There is so much I think I know but when I start reading and thinking on it, I find I don't know much of anything.

Just wanted to get everyone's ideas on these things. I am keeping an open mind on things like resurrection, judgment, temple, thousand years. These things I am not so sure of. I have been leaning toward a resurrection that has already happened in 70AD. Am not certain of that though. There are so many scriptures that speak of the return of Christ in 70AD. I do believe a lot has already been fulfilled though.

CHB

[Nathan]

Mind if I grow "with" you?  There are countless (literally) things I don't know either.  But the Spirit that is you and me . . and the others that make up this crazy and wonderful family, the spirit that is in us does know these things . . . let the spirit flow . . .understanding will come.  Always hungry for more.

[WhiteWings]

The Bible doesn't say the Temple will be rebuild. It says part of the Temple will be rebuild.

^YLTMatt 24
1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,
2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'

ἱερόν
hieron
Thayer Definition:
1) a sacred place, temple
1a) used of the temple of Artemis at Ephesus
1b) used of the temple at Jerusalem
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G2413
Citing in TDNT: 3:230, 349


^YLTRev 11
1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;

ναός
naos
Thayer Definition:
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice

^YLTRev 11
2 and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;

Does that mean the whole world, except the Temple/naos is the court (after the 42 months)..... :boogie:

/Edit  My :2c:  <--- For James  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

/Edit  My :2c:  <--- For James  :thumbsup:

:punish:

[micah7:9]

Am I to understand that you take the Book of Revelation as literal, when you say the whole world?

[WhiteWings]

To be honest I wasn't thinking about literal and/or spiritual.
The only reason I posted the above was to show exactly what I wrote. Completely destroyed and partly rebuild.
I have no problem as viewing it both literal and spiritual.

BTW I think the renting of the Temple curtain has a similar symbology.

[Molly]

The Bible doesn't say the Temple will be rebuild. It says part of the Temple will be rebuild.

YLTMatt 24
1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,
2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'

YLTRev 11
1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;

ναός
naos
Thayer Definition:
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice

Does that mean the whole world, except the Temple/naos is the court (after the 42 months).....

Interesting.
19Jesus answered them,  "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

--John 2


The body of Christ is the naos, the sanctuary.  That's what is raised up in three days.

The sanctuary has two rooms?  But the resurrected Christ [also the transfigured Christ] only has one room, with the rent veil, like King David's tabernacle.

Something interesting is going on there.  Help me out.

[Beloved Servant]

Two rooms Molly?

Isn't it just one room with the veil of the cherubim between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place?

A second veil, without cherubim, was between the Holy place and the outer court realm.

[WhiteWings]

That second veil was rent just before Jesus died. The Sanhedrin courtroom (Chamber of hewed stone) in which de mock trial of Jesus took place was permanently destroyed. Jesus was the last One judged in that room. I think that has a highly symbolic meaning.

Isn't it just one room with the veil of the cherubim between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place?

It was a real room with a veil. Isn't a veil just like a door? If I replaced the doors inside my house with curtains does that mean my house suddenly has one room?

Thought:
Veil
===> Being veiled as is no contact with the truth.
===> Father(s plan) unveiled as in Father revealed.

[Beloved Servant]

It was one structure with no interiors walls. One room with a veil of Cherubim who are still at work.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The veil is rent, the Father "descends" into the first two, filling all in all with Himself. It's just like the waters above the firmament descending into the waters below the firmament.

The knowledge (in the sense of being one with; Adam KNEW his wife and they were one) of the Lord covering the earth as the waters cover the sea. Blessings...

[WhiteWings]

It was one structure with no interiors walls. One room with a veil of Cherubim who are still at work.

But for me that veil made it 2 rooms. It had a function of a door. I guess it depends a bit on what the exact definition of a room is...

Interesting site: Click the many links.

(http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLE00000021.gif)
(http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLE00000018.jpg)

[Doug]

...

Interesting.
19Jesus answered them,  "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

--John 2


The body of Christ is the naos, the sanctuary.  That's what is raised up in three days.

The sanctuary has two rooms?  But the resurrected Christ [also the transfigured Christ] only has one room, with the rent veil, like King David's tabernacle.

Something interesting is going on there.  Help me out.

In Rev. 11:1, John is given a reed like a rod, and then he is told to measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Revelation 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

But only one dimension is mentioned, its height. [Rev. 11:19]

The length and breadth are described in Ezekiel's prophecy, chapters 40-48, where Ezekiel describes the temple being measured by an angel; these dimensions show it to be larger than the entire city of Jerusalem. And when Ezekiel wrote, there was no temple standing in Jerusalem, just as when John gave his prophecy about measuring the temple. It is not a temple made with hands, that John wrote about.

The significance of the dimensions given by Ezekiel seem to be that the temple and the holy city are both to be identified with the church. And in Revelation 21, the entire city of the New Jerusalem is contained in the temple, which is the Lord God Almighty, and the Lamb:

Revelation 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

So this is a spiritual city. Everyone who is in the holy city is said to be "in Christ." It is one of the apostle Paul's favorite phrases in his epistles.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Isaiah, too, spoke of Zion and Jerusalem as one; together he called them "the mountain of the Lord's house," which was to be raised up, above the hills, above all the high mountains, and nations would "flow" into it; a paradox, as "flow" is usually downhill. But the prophecy is fulfilled in the New Testament, and in the gospel, when Christ, the true temple, was caught up to heaven, to the throne of the Father; the saints are "seated together with him in heavenly places," Paul said, Eph. 2:6.

Isaiah 2:1-3
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

The holy city "Jerusalem" is the name that John applies to the saints, those who are sealed with the Spirit of Christ. Also Hebrews 12:22-23, Galatians 4:26. David spoke of Zion, a name for the temple, as "the city of the great King."

Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Jesus also referred to Jerusalem as the city of the great King; IMO, he meant the city of the saints in heaven, not the earthly one.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Beloved Servant]

Worth noting is that it had no roof, it was, basically, a Tent covered in skin and cloth.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Sounds familiar doesn't it, since we're basically a tent covered with skin and cloth.

Which makes me think even more that the skins God covered Adam with, was this same temporary dwelling place we're walking around in, a tent of flesh. Blessings.....

[Beloved Servant]

2 Peter 1:13 (NIV)

I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,

[Beloved Servant]

2 Corinthians 5:1 (CLV)

For we are aware that, IF our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens.

[Nathan]

Back a few posts to Molly's question pertaining to the veils . . there were actually three.  One led into the outer court, the second led into the temple itself, the third led into the holy of holies.  It's all patterned after "God" who manifests in three major dimensions in the Father, Son and Spirit.  It brings divine fullness in us and us in him.  We are again, three dimensional beings in body, soul and spirit as well.  Scripture is written to all men, religious men, and men who have intimacy with the Father . . .dimensions of three.  The underlying factor in "threes" is resurrection . . .it all pertains to being resurrected from the death of our "self" into life in Him.

So the veils are that which define one dimension from another.  Yet only one of the three is to actually be pursued over the other two.  Spirit is over flesh and mind.  Intimacy is over knowledge and of course, ignorance all together.  In Revelation John was told to measure . .why?  Because the Father was "revealing" his nature to him and the measuring implies "identifying with" that which was being revealed.  John was not to measure the temple according to his own assessment, but he "was given" a rod to measure with.

He was measuring according to God's perspectives . . .when God measures us, it's through grace due to the finished work of the cross through Christ . . that's what John was measuring with.  He wasn't to measure the outer court as that was where the Gentiles tread . . .the outer court in the tabernacle is the introductory level of our salvation.  It's the elementary stage.  Altar of sacrifice and the laver are the only two elements in the outer court.  One is indicating salvation, the water is indicating baptisms.

It's connected to when Jesus stated that many will call him Lord, but he'll still say "depart from me you WORKERS of iniquity . . .I never KNEW you".  This whole thing as far as God is concerned, has always been geared toward intimacy.  If there's no intimacy, there's no authority.  The same also is with the passage to those who have the power to loose and to bind . . .it's to those who the Father is "revealing" truth to because they have an intimate relationship with the Son.

So . . .the veil ripped at the death of Jesus . .why?  Because "up to" that point, the holy place, the inner court . .not the holy of holies, but the place where the candlestick stood, the altar of incense, the table of shewbread . ."that" place is all about labor and religious activity.  It was required in the Old Testament, but you still couldn't enter into the place of intimacy unless one, you were "the" high priest, which there was to be only one.  and two, you could only go in there once a year . .and even "then" they were terrified that if their sacrifice was rejected, that God would kill them on the spot.

But when Jesus "became" the sacrifice, all that ministry activity transformed as the veil was torn . .not so God could get out, but so man could get in.  And NOW it "is" all one room because in his intimacy, all that activity has been fulfilled so that even though we are still involved in ministries, it's not to be from a perspective of labor/slavery but it's to be because of intimacy with the Father, the ministries we're invovled in are a result of that intimacy and we do them "in his Rest" rather than through our labor.  Huge difference because if it's through our labor, it will absoluelty burn us out.  If it's done in his rest, it will invigorate us instead.

But the church today has done the same that the priests did when the veil was torn, they went on as if the veil was still in place.  The religious activity is like show biz . . the show must go on . .even though the very Person the activity was to symbolize, showed up and fulfilled it, pressed down, shaken together and running over . . they still choose to emphasize how important it is to be involved in a ministry and study and knowledge . . . oh that the world may come and KNOW (intimately) that the Sabbath is come to man.

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Nathan,
Knowingly and willingly being involved in a ministry carrying a false message of death is an abomination.
Shame on them.

[Doug]

Back a few posts to Molly's question pertaining to the veils . . there were actually three.  One led into the outer court, the second led into the temple itself, the third led into the holy of holies.  It's all patterned after "God" who manifests in three major dimensions in the Father, Son and Spirit.

Inside the temple, there was a section called the "holy of holies," where the priest entered once a year, and where the ark was located, at least in the temple of Solomon; the holy of holies was separated from the other section of the temple by an elaborate curtain or veil, and this veil was rent when Jesus died; Hebrews suggests it represents Christ's flesh.

Hebrews 10:19-20
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

It only takes one curtain to separate an enclosed space into two sections; when the veil that separated the holy of holies from the other parts of the temple was rent, the way was symbolically open for all Israel to enter in to the very presence of God.

Paul also talks about another barrier, the "wall of partition," that kept Gentiles or unclean folk from entering the inner courts and the temple itself, being broken down; this concept symbolically showed that the Gentiles who believed in Christ were now allowed to enter into the areas of the temple that were previously only permitted to those who were circumcised in the flesh; they were circumcised in the heart, and did not require the outward fleshly rite of circumcision to become Abraham's children and heirs of the promises, like Isaac.

The wall of partition was not a curtain or a veil, but a low wall, presumably having one or more gates, which may have been guarded or monitored. Certainly there were signs posted warning Gentiles against entering.

So, the temple had a veil, and a wall of partition, which created three areas; (1) the outer court where Gentiles were permitted to enter, (2) the temple proper and inner courts where Israelites only could enter, and (3) the holy of holies that was behind the veil, where only the high priest could go.

If you have some scriptures to defend your idea that there were "three veils," I would be interested in seeing the evidence for it. Also, your suggestion about such veils representing three "dimensions," i.e., Father, Son and Spirit, seems alien to the OT, IMO.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?