We came across an interesting passage last night in our weekly study of Revelation . . .it has been my contention that even though there is a great acceptance in most religious circles concerning the rebuilding of the temple . .that I personally don't believe it's ever going to happen due to the fact that I feel that's a door God closed and no man can open.
Well . . .out of the blue, this question came up about the connection between this and a passage out of Jeremiah. It's easy to remember because as a child John 3:16 was predominantly engrained into our brains . .and this one is the same . . .only in Jeremiah instead.
14Turn back, O backsliding sons, An affirmation of Jehovah. For I have ruled over you, And taken you one of a city, and two of a family, And have brought you to Zion, 15And I have given to you shepherds According to Mine own heart, And they have fed you with knowledge and understanding.
16And it hath come to pass, when ye are multiplied, And have been fruitful in the land, In those days -- an affirmation of Jehovah, They say not any more, `The ark of the covenant of Jehovah,' Nor doth it go up on the heart, Nor do they remember concerning it, Nor do they inspect, nor is it made again.
17At that time they cry to Jerusalem, `O throne of Jehovah,' And gathered unto her hath been all the nations, For the name of Jehovah, to Jerusalem, Nor do they go any more after the stubbornness of their evil heart. 18In those days do the house of Judah Go unto the house of Israel, And they come together from the land of the south, unto the land That I caused your fathers to inherit. 19And I have said, How do I put thee among the sons, And give to thee a desirable land, A beauteous inheritance of the hosts of nations, And I say, My father -- ye do call to Me, And from after Me ye do not turn back.
As near as I can tell . . . Scripture is saying the tabernacle as they knew it to be, would never be rebuilt again . .including the animal sacrifices and everything that went with it.
QuoteAs near as I can tell . . . Scripture is saying the tabernacle as they knew it to be, would never be rebuilt again . .including the animal sacrifices and everything that went with it.
Yes, of course, why would we ever go back to animal sacrifice? That priesthood (Levite) ended when John the Baptist handed the baton over to the new priesthood in Christ Jesus at the river Jordan.
Jesus told the Pharisees,
"Behold, I leave your house desolate."There is no longer any need of the Levite priesthood. It has been replaced.
It's interesting that there has not been a legitimate Levite priesthood since that time, nor animal sacrifice, nor a Temple. The ark of the covenant has gone missing, as have the ten lost tribes of Israel--only God knows who they are.
This is not to say they won't try. It's not clear to me how far they will get before God puts an end to it himself. These are those, including now deceived Christians, who do not think the Messiah has come, yet. They read the traditions of men, not their own Holy Bible, the word of God.
"In recounting this historical record in his commentary to the Mishna, the great Maimonides ends with the enigmatic statement: "... and the tenth red heifer will be accomplished by the king, the Messiah; may he be revealed speedily, Amen, May it be God's will."
:"
http://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/tenth_red_heifer.htm
[I removed some of that because they don't want us copying text from their website. But they think the Messiah himself will officiate at the sacrifice of the red heiffer when he comes, presumably at the rebuilt Temple.]
First the Natural,as was With the First Adam,the Old Covenant, The shadow then the Reality, the New C, etc,
A Temple Build With Hands Has gone and WONT be for mine again,...
I dont read, Natural then spiritual then Back to Natural :dontknow:
Yup, yup, yup . . .I just didn't realize it was so blunt in Scripture. I love how often we'll see something and then "later" come across the Scriptures that affirm what is written in our hearts.
Quote from: Nathan on December 18, 2008, 08:37:20 PM
Yup, yup, yup . . .I just didn't realize it was so blunt in Scripture. I love how often we'll see something and then "later" come across the Scriptures that affirm what is written in our hearts.
This is so central to the understanding of the Messiah, that it amazes me that churches never teach it.
I have never heard any church teaching on the Melchizedek priesthood, in person, on radio, or on tv.
Why the silence?
We are to be the Temple of God, not some building. Or maybe they don't want us to know that?
1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. --Isa 66
For I have ruled over you, And taken you one of a city, and two of a family, And have brought you to Zion,..
--Jeremiah 3:14
Jeremiah 31:12
Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
1His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
3Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.
4I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
5And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.
6The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
7As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.
--Psalm 87
We too could consider this:-
They WORSHIPPED in the Temple MADE of Hands....
We Worship IN SPIRIT and TRUTH,..Which IS again ( CHRIST in US,)
Christ In us Is the True Life spirit, the quickening ZOE life he blew into those at RE-BIRTH, starting at Pentecost , The TRUTH which bears witness to HIM....IS HIM...,MEANS Christ IN US.
This again for me Bears witnes to My postings In The Wheat and Tares,,tis all the same.
Phl 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
we know the story 5 Husbands Equate to the 5 books of the Torah, 5 synonomous with Grace bearing winess to the LAW again parabolic, Types \shadows
Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Jhn 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
Jhn 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
Jhn 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Jhn 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
Jhn 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This is one of the platforms they use to prove the temple will be rebuilt. As is this one in Daniel 12
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Hmmm . . . must be talking about a different temple other than a physical one then eh?
But what if John wrote Revelation 96 A.D. and he was in spirit in the future day of the Lord and in that future day saw and wrote this:
Rev 11:1 And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it."
If that is the case then there is a yet future temple.
I believe this to be the case. Once that temple is desecrated by the man of lawlessness then there will be 3 1/2 years of tribulation for the Jewish Christians in Israel.
We believers of the nation will be taken out before this occurrs.
Tony
Test
For some reason, it won't let me respond on the other thread . . .and it doesn't appear to be locked so I don't know what's going on with it. The last post on this topic stated as follows . . .
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But what if John wrote Revelation 96 A.D. and he was in spirit in the future day of the Lord and in that future day saw and wrote this:
Rev 11:1 And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it."
If that is the case then there is a yet future temple.
I believe this to be the case. Once that temple is desecrated by the man of lawlessness then there will be 3 1/2 years of tribulation for the Jewish Christians in Israel.
We believers of the nation will be taken out before this occurrs.
Tony
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I want to respond to this because I do think it's important that we realize that it would be so detrimental for man to try to rebuild what God removed. It's not cooincidence that ever since the tabernacle was first built . . and then moved into the temple of Solomon . .ever since that was first constructed, the enemies of Israel came in, destroyed the city and raided then destroyed the temple . .and EVERY time they were able to go back and rebuild the temple and continue on with their animal sacrifices . . .UNTIL . . .when Christ came as the ultimate sacrifice.
After that, when Rome destroyed them in A.D. 70 the prophetic words of Jesus in Matthew 24 were fulfilled. Not one stone was left on top of the other. But it not only was the buildings Jesus was referring to, but also the entire religious system. And for anyone to rebuild it would essentially mean that Christ means nothing. He was "not" the ultimate sacrifice . . . he didn't die once and for all . . . and even though it was God who closed the door . .man can open what God closes . . . God is not going to have men return to the very system that Jesus replaced . .that doesn't fit with anything at all.
And as to John looking in to the future . . .which again, is to ignore all of the "the time is at hand . . ." and "to THIS generation . . ." passages which I choose not to ignore . .but be that as it may . . .for John to be seeing a temple of the future would be another lie . . .because John was actually shown just the OPPOSITE.
Revelation 21
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
That which was given to measure was Christ himself, I see that A reed is symbolic to a Message and THE Rod is the One from Jesse, a( Message of Correction.) Christ Is the MEASURE of the Temple, for men are of Small measure, yet to be converted, Faith Makes ONE WHOLE, Complete and He is the Measure of it.
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Mat 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put [it] upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
Mat 27:30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head
1Ki 14:15 For the LORD shall smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water, and he shall root up Israel out of this good land, which he gave to their fathers, and shall scatter them beyond the river, because they have made their groves, provoking the LORD to anger.
:2c:
Quote from: Nathan on December 19, 2008, 05:30:36 PM
For some reason, it won't let me respond on the other thread . . .and it doesn't appear to be locked so I don't know what's going on with it. The last post on this topic stated as follows . . .
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But what if John wrote Revelation 96 A.D. and he was in spirit in the future day of the Lord and in that future day saw and wrote this:
Rev 11:1 And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it."
If that is the case then there is a yet future temple.
I believe this to be the case. Once that temple is desecrated by the man of lawlessness then there will be 3 1/2 years of tribulation for the Jewish Christians in Israel.
We believers of the nation will be taken out before this occurrs.
Tony
------------------------------------------------
I want to respond to this because I do think it's important that we realize that it would be so detrimental for man to try to rebuild what God removed. It's not cooincidence that ever since the tabernacle was first built . . and then moved into the temple of Solomon . .ever since that was first constructed, the enemies of Israel came in, destroyed the city and raided then destroyed the temple . .and EVERY time they were able to go back and rebuild the temple and continue on with their animal sacrifices . . .UNTIL . . .when Christ came as the ultimate sacrifice.
After that, when Rome destroyed them in A.D. 70 the prophetic words of Jesus in Matthew 24 were fulfilled. Not one stone was left on top of the other. But it not only was the buildings Jesus was referring to, but also the entire religious system. And for anyone to rebuild it would essentially mean that Christ means nothing. He was "not" the ultimate sacrifice . . . he didn't die once and for all . . . and even though it was God who closed the door . .man can open what God closes . . . God is not going to have men return to the very system that Jesus replaced . .that doesn't fit with anything at all.
And as to John looking in to the future . . .which again, is to ignore all of the "the time is at hand . . ." and "to THIS generation . . ." passages which I choose not to ignore . .but be that as it may . . .for John to be seeing a temple of the future would be another lie . . .because John was actually shown just the OPPOSITE.
Tony's reply:
But dear Nathan, it does not ignore "the time is at hand" nor ignore "this generation."
If you go here to this study on "This Generation" http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HeShallSaveHisPeople/thisgen.html
you will see that in no way does John seeing into the future ignore this.
Quote
Nathan wrote:
Revelation 21
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
That is on the new earth. There is no temple on the new earth except for God and Christ being the temple. John not only saw the 1000 year future age in which the temple was to be measured (You can't measure God), he also saw the new earth age.
Tony
The bottom line bro is the "DAY of the Lord ",...you see it in the Future as do some , others see it NOW,...so everything above that common denominator will differ from each ones pespective, therefore, never shall the twain meet :icon_flower:
The Scriptures could possibly anticipate a future Temple being rebuilt in Israel. But it would be no different than a Krishna Temple -- absolutely meaningless paganism to God. If He accepted animal sacrifices, then it would violate multiple covenants of the Scriptures. Roughly a dozen of them, of which I'll only mention 3 for brevity:
1. The covenant of the remission of sin through Jesus Christ having been the lamb of God.
2. The Hosea 2:18 covenant that says that God's causing these animals to lie down in safety. A knife to the throat isn't safety. The sacrifice and oblation has ceased per this covenant.
3. Christ Jesus' clear comment that the Kingdom had been taken completely away from Israel. They'll never have it back. That was a permanent removal. The close of Jeremiah 31 is interpreted for us in Hebrews with the city not made with hands that's in the heavens. I know what Romans 11 says, but that's not a matter of God restoring us to Israel, that's the rest of Israel, i.e. the rest of the natural branches embracing the Lordship of Christ Jesus. They reconcile themselves with us rather than the other way around because of some idea somewhere about God having unconditional covenants with Israel that are most definitely conditional all over the Bible (ex: Deuteronomy chapters 28 and 30). Plus, God is a debtor to no man and to no tribe:
So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it... Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass. (Joshua 21:43,45)
God owes natural Israel NOTHING, but He will bring them to Christ Jesus in the fullness of time when it suits Him. Christ Jesus is the center of eschatology and not Israel. Israel is the rich man that's still burning in Hell, desiring a drop of water for their tongue and warnings to be given to their descendants.
The most holy has been anointed and everlasting righteousness has been brought in, therefore Daniel's 70th week is totally fulfilled. We still have time because of numerous Scriptures like Isaiah 53 that say that God would prolong days so that the pleasure of the Lord could prosper in His hand. God takes pleasure in the prosperity of His servants, according to the Psalms. The millenium isn't already here, so don't confuse what I'm saying with amillenialism. The millenium is yet totally future, if we didn't enter it with this decade and some unusual prophetic fulfillments that began this decade. The millenium isn't begun by the return of Christ Jesus. It's begun with an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Jesus fighting with the sword of His mouth is a common picture in Scripture with regards to the gifts of the Spirit operating in the lives of believers.
People are raised from the dead in Revelation 20 to reign with Christ, but is Christ raised from the dead at that time? No, He was raised from the dead 2000 years ago and has been reigning all of this time after the Order of Melchezedec. Reigning with Christ doesn't imply Christ Jesus being bodily among us. I've been reigning with the anointing all of this time 'cause of Romans 5 and countless other passages. Christ Jesus's coming is in Revelation 21:3, if not a few verses earlier with the raising of the dead to face the White Throne Judgment. The Greek says in Revelation 20 that the souls of those that had been martyred with an actual ax are raised to reign with Christ. It doesn't even say that their bodies are raised from the dead. Scripturally, He's obligated to give no one immortality prior to 1Corinthians 15:28. Believers that reign with Christ during the thousand years are the same ones that are reigning with Him now through the Word, faith, His Blood, and the anointing. There's nothing in Scripture that necessitates that they're immortals during the millenium. Christians are blessed with Abraham, according to Romans 4 and Galatians 3, "for whom those things were written," that they're heir of the world. The whole Creation is ours now. Jew/Gentile distinctions have been taken away in Christ and will never be restored.
During the millennium they will bring sacrifices:
Isa 56:7 I bring them also to My holy mountain, and I make them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascent approaches and their sacrifices shall ascend for acceptance on My altar, for My house a house of prayer shall be called, for all the peoples,
Isa 66:20-23 And they bring all your brethren from all the nations as an approach present to Yahweh, on horses, and in chariots, and in coaches, and on mules, and in saddle baskets, to My holy mountain, Jerusalem,says Yahweh, "As the sons of Israel are bringing their approach present in a clean vessel to the house of Yahweh." (21) And moreover, from them, to Me will I take for priests and for Levites,says Yahweh." (22) For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make, will stand before Me,averring is Yahweh, "So stand shall your seed and your name." (23) And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,says Yahweh."
Jer 33:18 And to the priests--the Levites, Not cut off from before Me is one, Causing a burnt-offering to ascend, And perfuming a present, and making sacrifice--all the days.'"
Zec 14:16-21 And it shall come to be that everyone left of all the nations coming against Jerusalem, shall also go up, a quota, year by year, to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, and to celebrate the celebration of booths." (17) And it comes, whoever will not go up from the families of the earth, to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, then the downpour shall not come on them." (18) And if a family of Egypt shall not go up, and shall not come, then it is not on them; to it shall come the stroke with which Yahweh will strike all the nations, which will not go up to celebrate the celebration of booths." (19) This shall be the sin of Egypt, and the sin of all the nations, that will not go up to celebrate the celebration of booths." (20) In that day there shall be on the horse shades: Holy to Yahweh of hosts. And the pots in the house of Yahweh shall be as sprinkling bowls before the altar. (21) And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall come to be holy to Yahweh of hosts. And all who are sacrificing shall come and take of them and cook in them. And no longer shall there be a trafficker in the house of Yahweh of hosts, in that day."
Mal 3:3-4 And he shall sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and gold. And he shall cleanse the sons of Levi, and cupel them as gold and as silver. And they shall come to be for Yahweh, bringing close the approach present in righteousness." (4) Then the approach present of Judah and Jerusalem is congenial to Yahweh, as in the days of the eon, and as in former years."
The Mosaic covenant is done away by the new.
The millennium will not be a time of returning to the old covenant but going forward to the new. "Heb 7:12 For, the priesthood being transferred, of necessity there is coming to be a transference of law also.
Jesus will be physically present instead of the Shechinah glory presence along with the ark of the covenant; a new priestly order from the sons of Zadok (Ezek. 40:46; 43:19; 48:11) instead of the Levites. There will be a new Temple measuring one mile square (Ezek. 40:48-41:26) instead of the much smaller one Solomon constructed.
There are references to the sacrificial systems:
These references include: "new moons and Sabbaths . . . all the appointed feasts" (Ezek. 44:24; 45:17; 46:3,11-12), "daily offerings" (Ezek. 46:13-14),"burnt offerings, grain offerings, and the libations" (Ezek.45:17; 46:2, 4, 11-15), "blood sacrifices" (Ezek.43:20), an "altar" for burnt offering (Ezek. 40:47;43:13-27), an "altar" for incense offering (Ezek. 41:22),"boiling places" to "boil the sacrifices of the people" (Ezek. 46:23-24); a "Zadokite" priesthood to "offer Me the fat and the blood" (Ezek. 40:46;42:13-14: 43:19; 44:15-16; 48:11), a "Levitical" priesthood to "slaughter the burnt offering" (Ezek. 44:10-11; 48:22). Furthermore, the offerings are stated to be for "a sin offering" (Ezek. 43:22, 25;44:24, 29) and to "make atonement" (Ezek. 43:20;45:25). Since the sacrifices andsacrificial personnel are so prominent throughout these chapters, the future sacrifices cannot be avoided.
By the way, Taffy or Nathan, did you go here: "This Generation" http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HeShallSaveHisPeople/thisgen.html
What exactly is wrong with it if there is something wrong with it?
Tony
Quote from: MartinReigning with Christ doesn't imply Christ Jesus being bodily among us.
Yes, I just realized that recently. But doesn't it require that we be perfected in Him? Doesn't it require us to be also part of the priesthood? And, having the mind of Christ?
QuoteThere's nothing in Scripture that necessitates that they're immortals during the millenium.
If we are part of the Melchizedek priesthood, we are immortal by definition.
Tony, give me one good reason in your own words why God would return to animal sacrifice after the cross. It makes no sense.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
--Hebrews 10
Quote from: Molly on December 19, 2008, 08:42:29 PM
Quote from: MartinReigning with Christ doesn't imply Christ Jesus being bodily among us.
Yes, I just realized that recently. But doesn't it require that we be perfected in Him? Doesn't it require us to be also part of the priesthood? And, having the mind of Christ?
QuoteThere's nothing in Scripture that necessitates that they're immortals during the millenium.
If we are part of the Melchizedek priesthood, we are immortal by definition.
Molly,
For mine as weve talked about on a few occasions, the last one on the 1000 yr thread, what we reign over IS DEATH,...
Is this what youve come to se, if not what do we reign ove
QuoteBy the way, Taffy or Nathan, did you go here: "This Generation" http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HeShallSaveHisPeople/thisgen.html
not as yet Tony, but im sure it will be a Mixing of the spiritual and Natural, like everything else i seem to read...
:icon_flower:
Yo Martin
Im with you with much of what You state,...but theres a few areas Im a Miss on...I cant always read you Bro , Not your fault , a Little like Craig you talk over my head,...I often get my wife , whos far more educated than I , to read too,...as I hope to Glean something through what you post...but she too struggles.
:icon_flower:
I am still unable to reply to the other thread.
Tony, I read "portions" of the website . . .and the more I read, the more it felt like chains were being wrapped around me. I know that sounds like I'm over dramatizing it but there "is" this "binding" feeling when I read articles that want me to relive a part of my life that's in my past.
It is as Taf has said. We are coming at this from two opposite spectrums. And in the flesh it's very frustrating because you aren't swaying me and I'm not swaying you. But I can't help but look at the over all spiritual body . .why do I want to be the one that changes the minds of others when my own message is one that speaks to the fact that it's not men changing the minds of men, but it's the Spirit of Life. Perhaps where you are both spiritually and physically, you are needed to see things as you do in order for God to use you in the pocket of humanity that you physically live in. Any body MUST have opposites to have any balance.
But what makes the body as one body is when these opposites come under the direction and instruction of the head. There are a lot of things a right hand can do . . .but there are a lot of things a right hand can't do. You ever try to scratch your right shoulder with your right hand? Or . . .if you surgically removed your left hand and sew on another right hand . . . do you still think you could scratch your right shoulder?
On this forum, there are many body parts. One of our problems with the church in general is that each church tries to reproduce "one" body part. Rather than each church consisting of all different parts, it has convinced itself that each church "must" be "one" part. But that's not what being "one" in Christ is. Being one in Christ is understanding we're coming from different perspectives and as we post on the boards, we "allow" each other to share what is in the right hand, and what is in the left hand . .so the whole body in the forum can benefit from both. We may be opposites, but that's what is required in order for there to be a perfect fit.
You ever use your right hand to try to shake someone else's right hand? Yeah, it fits perfectly doesn't it. Know why? Because the two people facing each other are facing "opposite" directions.
I guess what I'm saying is . . .it's important everyone reading the boards has the opportunity to see all sides to the issues without those presenting their side either coming under attack from another, or going on attack against another. Let the body benefit from both spectrums. There's no condemnation.
That's not to say we still won't frustrate each other from time to time . .and in those times, I pray that God will again remind me, the body needs both hands in order to function effectively.
Okay, having said that . . . my deal on the temple is . . .if rebuilding it doesn't really mean anything . .then why was it so necessary for it to be detroyed in the first place?
Quote from: Molly on December 19, 2008, 08:52:40 PM
Tony, give me one good reason in your own words why God would return to animal sacrifice after the cross. It makes no sense.
I'll give you a couple instead of one:
- The bible says there will be sacrifices
- Because it is a means that God will use to show them the real meaning of sacrifice.
- Besides that, I don't think that the sacrifices are for sin but for approach.
Quote
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
That is saying Christ can't come and be a sacrifice for sins again.
Quote from: Nathan on December 19, 2008, 09:40:35 PM
I am still unable to reply to the other thread.
Tony, I read "portions" of the website . . .and the more I read, the more it felt like chains were being wrapped around me. I know that sounds like I'm over dramatizing it but there "is" this "binding" feeling when I read articles that want me to relive a part of my life that's in my past.
What is binding to one man is another man's freedom from binding.
I'll make it very simple so you won't need that Malox moment:
"UNDER no circumstances
should you be finishing the cities of Israel till the Son of Mankind
may be coming" (Matt.10:23b).
"Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances
should be tasting death till they
should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom" (Matt.16:28; cp Luke 9:27). "Verily I am saying to you that by no means
may this generation be passing by till all these things
should be occurring" (Matt.24:34; cp Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32).
Jim Coram wrote:
"It is indeed important to believe what the Scriptures say. Yet the deeper question still remains: In what sense is what the Scriptures say to be understood. As we approach this question of the time of Christ's appearing, whether it is past or future, it should first of all be noted that in the Original, each of these statements of Jesus concerning His appearing (e.g., Matt.10:23b; 16:28; 24:34) is expressed in the subjunctive mood, sometimes with the conditional particle
an (EVER) included. These grammatical features are reflected in the Concordant Version by the auxiliaries "
should" and "
may.""
The "subjuntive mood" is just saying one thing depends upon another. For instance, I have a pen in my hand. The pen
may be falling
should I loose my grip on the pen.
Do you see that? Should and may represent provisional statements. It is to be understood that certain things may come to pass based upon certain things coming to pass which would cause what Christ said should come to pass.
Be loosed from your binding in Jesus Name!
Tony
Quote from: Taffy on December 19, 2008, 09:05:15 PM
Yo Martin
Im with you with much of what You state,...but theres a few areas Im a Miss on...I cant always read you Bro , Not your fault , a Little like Craig you talk over my head,...
I'm a little over my own head, right now. I just know what God's been speaking to me about for a couple of years. I was premillenial dispensationalist all of the days of my life until 2 years ago. And then, first, it was an odd correcting that started happening through my preaching. I started talking about Christ not coming back until the New Earth. I'd never heard of it before. Had never read the writings of B.B. Warfield, H.A.W. Meyer, Loraine Boettner, and R. J. Rushdoony. To be perfectly honest, I still haven't. Would probably clear some things up for me quicker if I would, but I've been taking it slowly since even my premillenialism came under attack by the Holy Spirit.
When that started happening to me a couple of years ago, I started reading [aloud] the book of Revelation from the Concordant and from Scarlett's from start to finish four to six times a day and doing a whole lot of praying. Last year in frustration, or not really frustration, but just being a little tired 'cause although I was seeing a lot out of reading Revelation for myself rather than relying on what I'd been taught all of my life, but I wasn't satisfied that I was seeing the whole picture yet. I happened to google the book of Revelation and wikipedia's article on it came up. And within a link or two of that page I bumped into their article on Postmillenialism and realized that that's where I'd been going. I'd never heard of it before. John Calvin's exegesis of the Lord's prayer supposedly goes there with the Postmillenial perspective, and Spurgeon supposedly defended Postmillenialism in one message that I haven't found yet -- yet at all other times he was emphatically Premillenial. I haven't found that Spurgeon sermon either, but being the T.D. Jakes of his day, I can easily understand how some moments for him would have been more inspired than others. I could show you a stack of videos where T.D. Jakes is emphatically and very, very dogmatically UR -- to the point where he makes most of us look totally backslidden from it -- and yet at other times his theology gets in the way with the traditional view.
Many days I'm studying this about 16+hrs a day 'cause I'm determined to have it worked out before my 34th birthday. I've seen enough to where I don't think that I could return to Premillenialism. There's just enough annoyances to keep me from going there again. It's sorta like an ETer seeing some of the promises without the religious lenses and seeing through the aion shell game played by the theologians. Although they might still be annoyed by not yet being at rest by ages of ages, the occasional destruction passage, and maybe Matthew 25 if they haven't gotten that fully worked out yet, they can still be at the place where they know it's between UR and Annihilationism. That's sorta where I'm at. I'm fully UR, so don't misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that the coming of the Lord after the millenium is way too plain to me, and Revelation 19 not being the Second Coming is way too plain to me. Other things are likewise way too plain to me.
Yet, I still don't have answers for all that Tony's brought up yet. I know that the Scriptures don't contradict each other, and that the Hosea 2:18 covenant is a covenant of deliverance for the animals from all of this. I'm confident that the timing on that is now 'cause of Mark 5, Isaiah 30, and numerous other passages. Partial preterism makes sense to me 'cause futuristic perspectives on prophecy have seldom not been fully clear to me. St. Paul was speaking some things to his world without a doubt when he said that marriage isn't the best of ideas and getting really comfortable in your marriage isn't a good idea because this world -- not our world, but his world -- is about to go straight to Hell. And it did with 70AD and other calamities. I don't have all of the answers, but per Mark 11:24, I will have 'em very soon. Can't remember if it's Andrew Jukes or whose book it was that said "name a subject where there aren't these apparent contradictions at first, second, and third glance!"
I'm certain that it's Andrew Jukes' book that says that the very form that the written Word is in is a part of our disciplining from our Father. I've wondered, off and on over the years, since so many of the prophecies were written to Israel -- how many of them could follow the same format as the promises that if they do this, then God will do that, but if they do this, then God will do something else entirely to where it's God's invitation to us to be co-re-Creators with Him. So that it's not so much a contradiction but a choice on the world that we have, whether a Judaized one or an Intergalactic one. St. Paul said what he said. Yet we still have page after page after page in the Old Testament where God was going to smash into a greasy spot all of these filthy Gentiles. Same with the animals, yet Jeremiah 31:27-28 says all of that's over. Same with the two possible types of Temples. Same with the timing of our immortality. Same with demensions of choice and Sovereignty. Same with having lost the soul or having a soul that's under the altar. Are we entering into His rest, or into more religion?
I had some books when I was a little kid where you'd read to a certain point and then choose the next step and based on your choice you'd go to a certain page to read the rest of the story or until you had to pick the next change in the future. This could get deep quickly with parallel worlds being created with each choice and how Christ Jesus would tie all of the strands of time and space back together and reunite all of the alternative realities back into the Kingdom of God per Ephesians 1:10 and that conversation hasn't always gone over well 'cause too many around here couldn't entertain the free will implication even hypothetically.
Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God? Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured? just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn :thumbsup:.
Quote from: Tony N on December 19, 2008, 08:38:59 PM
During the millennium they will bring sacrifices:
Yup Tony
sure will be sacrifices bud, those which RISE, as a BURNT offering of incense( prayers of Righteousness), that which are set before the ALTER....
Luk 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much
incense, that he should
offer [it] with the""""
prayers of all saints """""upon the
golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the
smoke of the incense, [which came] with
the prayers of the saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Psa 141:2 """
Let my prayer be set forth"" before thee [as] incense; [and] the lifting up of my hands [as] the""""
evening sacrifice. """"""""
Psa 66:15 I will offer unto thee
burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the
incense of rams; I will offer
bullocks with goats. Selah. Exd 30:7 And Aaron shall
burn thereon sweet incense every morning: when he
dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it. and He wasnt Lying
Exd 30:8 And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it,
a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations Deu 33:10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put
incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar Lev 16:12 And he shall take a
censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands
full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring [it]
within the vail: WHOPPEEEDO DA DAY :HeartThrob:
Lev 16:13 And he shall put the
incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the
cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that [is] upon the testimony, that he die not: Just a few thoughts On the sacrifices which are Made NOW :icon_flower:
Again ALWAYS first the Natural which is the shadow, then the spiritual which is the REALITY, we just need to be able to see how that Applies...which isnt alsways easy, until its revealed
always enjoyed Jukes."law of the Sacrifices", Cant remember if he talked Much on Incense thou.... :HeartThrob:
Martin
Thanks for being straight Bud,..... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on December 20, 2008, 12:28:04 AM
Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God? Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured? just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn :thumbsup:.
I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not the mountain that the Jewish Temple was built on could accomodate a mile in diameter temple. Doesn't seem like it's that big from the pictures that I've seen of the one that some people are insisting is the less ambitious tribulation temple. So, if it's supposed to be a mile, that could already tell you that it's talking about something else unless Scripture allows for it being somewhere else. And we are the Temple. And to be brutally honest, with the perspective that I've had over the last 7 years, we have had the Temple with the continual animal sacrifices with people still living in the old paradigm regarding animals. That's been going on virtually unchallenged 50% to 75% of the time during the last two thousand years. If we argue for certain centuries not having particularly been Christian centuries, you're still looking at a thousand years of that having already transpired.
The measurements in the Scriptures often teach lessons completely unrelated to the particular thing that they're measuring, like with the tabernacle of Moses being full of lessons about the righteousness of Christ Jesus, our liberty in Him with all of the repeated 50s associated with it, etc. I genuinely don't believe that those stop with the Mosaic law. We just don't have very many people that can do their own digging and they start assuming that all that can be dug out has already been dug out just because they know of authors that have traced 1% of 1% of the types, shadows, symbols, names, choices in spelling, ordering of events, numerology of the Scriptures, and taking into account what we're deliberately told [and how] and contrasting that with what we're deliberately not told and all of the how, why, and when associated with each of those details that are sorta the Calculus, Trigonometry, Geometry, and Advanced Algebra of the Scriptures if we were to assume a whole lot of [deliberate] layers to Scripture and it's Inspiration.
When you're dealing with the Scriptures, Pythagoras's maxim universally applies that "all is number." I've heard very good teaching over the years from quite a few Bible teachers that certain events in the Bible meant certain things because they were done in certain places, but had those exact same things been done elsewhere, then those very actions would have meant something entirely different elsewhere. So, if there isn't a going of the second mile in the Scriptures without it's own unique significance, then none of us are looking at the Scriptures with a powerful enough of a microscope
yet.
Quote from: martincisneros on December 20, 2008, 02:17:23 AM
And to be brutally honest, with the perspective that I've had over the last 7 years, we have had the Temple with the continual animal sacrifices with people still living in the old paradigm regarding animals. That's been going on virtually unchallenged 50% to 75% of the time during the last two thousand years. If we argue for certain centuries not having particularly been Christian centuries, you're still looking at a thousand years of that having already transpired.
Very interesting. I was a vegetarian for about 5 years...been thinking lately about your veganism...and I agree, we are clearly told we are the temple, and that God doesn't dwell in houses made of hands...so for me, right now, I'd have to think even if there was another brick and stone temple built, it would be man's doing (?)...there's WAY much sacred symbolism about the veil being torn, not one stone upon another, "temple torn down and rebuilt in 3 days", etc., and the immesurable significance of all that...
QuoteWhen you're dealing with the Scriptures, Pythagoras's maxim universally applies that "all is number." I've heard very good teaching over the years from quite a few Bible teachers that certain events in the Bible meant certain things because they were done in certain places, but had those exact same things been done elsewhere, then those very actions would have meant something entirely different elsewhere. So, if there isn't a going of the second mile in the Scriptures without it's own unique significance, then none of us are looking at the Scriptures with a powerful enough of a microscope yet.
If your saying what I think your saying.. :dontknow: then welcome to my world of thought
Quote from: jabcat on December 20, 2008, 12:28:04 AM
Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God? Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured? just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn :thumbsup:.
The church is called out people
Not a building with a steeple
Could a building with a steeple be like Him?
Not a hand and not a hammer
Not a whisper, not a stammer
Builds the Temple of His people once again.
Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.' "
Quote from: Molly on December 20, 2008, 02:43:24 AM
The church is called out people
Not a building with a steeple
Could a building with a steeple be like Him?
Not a hand and not a hammer
Not a whisper, not a stammer
Builds the Temple of His people once again.
Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.' "
:thumbsup:...I like that..."not made by man"!!!!
30:8 And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations
1 Thessalonians 5:17
Pray without ceasing.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
"incense"
G2368
θυμίαμα
thumiama
thoo-mee'-am-ah
From G2370; an aroma, that is, fragrant powder burnt in religious service; by implication the burning itself: - incense, odour.
"he shall burn incense"
H6999
קטר
qâṭar
kaw-tar'
A primitive root (rather identical with H7000 through the idea of fumigation in a close place and perhaps thus driving out the occupants); to smoke, that is, turn into fragrance by fire (especially as an act of worship): - burn (incense, sacrifice) (upon), (altar for) incense, kindle, offer (incense, a sacrifice).
Quote from: jabcat on December 20, 2008, 12:28:04 AM
Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God? Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured? just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn :thumbsup:.
Yea, but there comes a time when a thread has to be locked just so no one's pet theory is threatened, if you know what I mean :icon_flower:
If people are the temple of God how does the antichrist or man of lawlessness get inside that temple since the holy spirit will not share space with satan in the same body?
Also, if the man of lawnessness has already done his trick as stated here:
2Th 2:3-4 No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction, (4) who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
So if the man of lawlessness did his trick of seating himself in the temple of God in 70 A.D. and actually
DEMONSTRATED THAT HE HIMSELF IS GOD in 70 A.D., then all the believers of the nations prior to that time have been taken with Christ and we are no longer under grace or under Paul's evangel for the last almost 2000 years.
Now you can lock the thread.
"Verily, I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances shall be tasting death - till they shall be perceiving - the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."
The Kingdom is within by and through His Spirit in the time, specified: "First the physical, then, the Spiritual."
And, it is indeed important to believe what the Scriptures say – without a doubt.
So, is the Spirit given, temporarily? Or, a peremptory mandamus of Christ?
peacemaker
2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
--Malachi 3
So it will not be until the priests are themselves purified whereby their offering will be righteousness, that is, Christ---that they will enter into the new priesthood. It is only Christ which is pleasing to the LORD.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Quote
If people are the temple of God how does the antichrist or man of lawlessness get inside that temple since the holy spirit will not share space with satan in the same body?
ya could re read the Wheat and Tares Thread ..says the same thing......
The Tares which dwells with The wheat , let them GROW together, Untill a Time the of Unveiling is Revealed :icon_flower:
The soul Of Man is What sits in the Temple , claiming its self to Be GOD ......(""""so they wish to be GODS like US""")
The Son of Pedition is within ALL men.
Quote from: peacemaker on December 20, 2008, 04:09:17 AM
"Verily, I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances shall be tasting death - till they shall be perceiving - the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."
The Kingdom is within by and through His Spirit in the time, specified: "First the physical, then, the Spiritual."
And, it is indeed important to believe what the Scriptures say – without a doubt.
So, is the Spirit given, temporarily? Or, a peremptory mandamus of Christ?
peacemaker
Dear peacemaker,
if the kingdom of God already came, why did Jesus state it was still future:
Mar 14:25 "Verily, I am saying to you that no longer under any circumstances may I be drinking of the product of the grapevine till that day whenever I may be drinking it new in the kingdom of God."
If the kingdom of God was already present when Christ walked the earth why was Joseph still anticipating it?:
Mar 15:43 Joseph from Arimathea, a respectable counselor, who himself also was anticipating the kingdom of God, coming with daring, entered in to Pilate and requests the body of Jesus."
If the disciples were still seeking the kingdom of God, how could it already have come? . . .
Luk 12:31 However, be seeking the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added to you."
Did the 12 see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God? . . .
Luk 13:28 There will be lamentation and gnashing of teeth, whenever you should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, yet you cast outside."
The Pharisees were looking for the kingdom of God . . .
Luk 17:20 Now, being inquired of by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God is coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with scrutiny."
In other words, one won't have to squint to see if it has come because it will be like lightening flashing:
Luk 17:24 For even as the lightning, flashing out from here under heaven to there under heaven, is shining, thus will be the Son of Mankind in His day."
They were expecting the kingdom of God to be coming at any time:
Luk 19:11 "Now at their hearing these things, adding, He spoke a parable because of His being near Jerusalem, and they are supposing that instantly the kingdom of God is about to be looming up."
But it didn't come.
"The Kingdom of God is very seldom mentioned in the epistles, stress being laid upon its character. It is never, however, spoken of as a present reality upon the earth. It is spoken of as future (1 Cor.6:9,10; 15:50; Gal.5:21; Eph 5:5; 1 Thess.2:12; 2 Thess.1:5; 2 Tim.4:1,18). It is associated with the Circumcision (Col.4:11). The phrase "the kingdom of God is within you," so often quoted to show a present mysterious immanence is a mistranslation. When the Greek "en," in, is used with a plural, it should be rendered "among." The Lord said "the kingdom of God is among you." It had drawn very nigh in those days." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.1)
Even in the Acts period when the spirit was given, the disciples were looking for the kingdom to come:
Act 1:6 Those, indeed, then, who are coming together, asked Him, saying, "Lord, art Thou at this time restoring the kingdom to Israel?
Shalom, peace and all that jazz :drummer: :angelharp: :banana:
Quote from: Taffy on December 20, 2008, 02:37:19 PM
Quote
If people are the temple of God how does the antichrist or man of lawlessness get inside that temple since the holy spirit will not share space with satan in the same body?
ya could re read the Wheat and Tares Thread ..says the same thing......
The Tares which dwells with The wheat , let them GROW together, Untill a Time the of Unveiling is Revealed :icon_flower:
The soul Of Man is What sits in the Temple , claiming its self to Be GOD ......(""""so they wish to be GODS like US""")
The Son of Pedition is within ALL men.
Dear Taffy, having wheat (believers) dwelling
with tares (seed of Satan) is not the same as Satan dwelling inside of believers.
Mat 13:38 Now
the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are
the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are
the sons of the wicked one."
Mat 13:39 Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers.
The conclusion of the eon has not occurred yet. When Jesus comes He will judge the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and judge Israel and cast out of the kingdom He sets up the sons of the wicked one.
Quote from: Tony N on December 20, 2008, 02:54:40 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 20, 2008, 02:37:19 PM
Quote
If people are the temple of God how does the antichrist or man of lawlessness get inside that temple since the holy spirit will not share space with satan in the same body?
ya could re read the Wheat and Tares Thread ..says the same thing......
The Tares which dwells with The wheat , let them GROW together, Untill a Time the of Unveiling is Revealed :icon_flower:
The soul Of Man is What sits in the Temple , claiming its self to Be GOD ......(""""so they wish to be GODS like US""")
The Son of Pedition is within ALL men.
Dear Taffy, having wheat (believers) dwelling with tares (seed of Satan) is not the same as Satan dwelling inside of believers.
Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."
Mat 13:39 Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers.
The conclusion of the eon has not occurred yet. When Jesus comes He will judge the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and judge Israel and cast out of the kingdom He sets up the sons of the wicked one.
Hi Tony
as Explained
They are seen two fold, one as a People ,aka the pharisees and those under law, but speaks also of the Hidden Man which is to be revealed .
they also Grow inward but are shown outwardly as The pharisees
Maybe you dont see that Christ is the Kingdom HIDDEN in all men, Until he comes as As theif in the Night to
restore what is Rightfully His..well you do, but not in the manner some understand it.
The secret of the ages which paul speaks of...the wheat Is Hidden behind the veil, the soul of Man is the tare which LOOKS like wheat,the god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God, ....
The message is repeated time and Time again, just spoken differently
:icon_flower:
The topic of the end of the world has alos been touched on Tony, but again you see it differently
Be blessed bro in what you are led too see and share .
Quotethe god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God,
Taffy, the man of lawlessness is DEMONSTRATING that he is God.
2Th 2:3-4 No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction, (4) who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God,
demonstrating that he himself is God?It is one thing to "proclaim to be God" and quite another to "demonstrate that he himself is God."
QuoteThe secret of the ages which paul speaks of...the wheat Is Hidden behind the veil, the soul of Man is the tare which LOOKS like wheat,the god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God, ....
Taffy, I don't know where you are getting your information but Paul never spoke of "the wheat hidden behind the veil" as a secret. The Bible also knows no such thing as "the soul of man is the tare which looks like wheat."
The point is this, and is inescapable as to the conclusion to be drawn:
If the man of lawlessness has already demonstrated he is God in the temple then the body of Christ was withdrawn almost 2000 years ago. The nations have been under the iron club of the 12 apostles for almost 2000 years with their headquarters in Israel (that's if the new heavens and new earth didn't come almost 1000 years ago). We are not under grace if we've been under the 12.
Quote from: Tony N on December 20, 2008, 03:30:54 PM
Quotethe god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God,
Taffy, the man of lawlessness is DEMONSTRATING that he is God.
2Th 2:3-4 No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction, (4) who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
It is one thing to "proclaim to be God" and quite another to "demonstrate that he himself is God."
QuoteThe secret of the ages which paul speaks of...the wheat Is Hidden behind the veil, the soul of Man is the tare which LOOKS like wheat,the god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God, ....
Taffy, I don't know where you are getting your information but Paul never spoke of "the wheat hidden behind the veil" as a secret. The Bible also knows no such thing as "the soul of man is the tare which looks like wheat."
The point is this, and is inescapable as to the conclusion to be drawn:
If the man of lawlessness has already demonstrated he is God in the temple then the body of Christ was withdrawn almost 2000 years ago. The nations have been under the iron club of the 12 apostles for almost 2000 years with their headquarters in Israel (that's if the new heavens and new earth didn't come almost 1000 years ago). We are not under grace if we've been under the 12.
Tony
we are POLES apart Bud ...Light yrs :laughing7:
The Soul of Man is the Heart and Mind ,again revIEw that thread, tis this which Demostrates HE is God , HE that sits In the Temple, THat Temple which sould be The HEART and MIND of Christ given in the NEW C...HENSE we WHO are In Him and HIM in Us are that Temple.
Paul NEVER spoke about the Hidden man( Christ, Wheat ,zoe spirit, etc) behind the Veil, what scriptures do you read Tony?
The parables are all about the Hidden Man of the Heart , the Kngdom of God which lays within ALL men Until revealed...
QuoteIf the man of lawlessness has already demonstrated he is God in the temple then the body of Christ was withdrawn almost 2000 years ago. The nations have been under the iron club of the 12 apostles for almost 2000 years with their headquarters in Israel (that's if the new heavens and new earth didn't come almost 1000 years ago). We are not under grace if we've been under the 12.
now ya lost me with this bit...could ya explain again :icon_flower:
ps
as for infomation from elsewhere...Nah dont read folk much T , I knida make it up as I go along ,,, :happy3:
For me the Original invite was to his country men who denied Him, the many who were called But only a Few Chosen,like the apostles :dontknow:
we see that The MANY Refused the Invite , so BOTH GOOD AND BAD were gathered,again could be veiw outward and Inwardly ...Two Type of folk , good and Bad , but we Know No one is GOOD,..but it could also Imply the GOOD and Bad with In, Likened to the Tares and Wheat , the Soul of Man v The life giving zoe SPIRIT, seen also as Jew and Gentile
The
One Ommitted is the One NOT covered ....
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found,
both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
Tony Im not here to defend Just share what I see Bro,....
Tony is saying that things have to happen in a certain order.
The question is what things in what order...
I tend to agree that there are certain physical manifestations in the real world that we still have to look forward to. For instance, I don't believe that all the good people will disappear (rapture), but rather that they will fill the whole earth. At the moment, evil is filling the whole earth. In my opinion, this is not a good outcome..I need something better to look forward to.
So Tony maybe you could just give a list of the order in which things play out according to you.
Unfortunately for me . . . I can not respond to anything on this part of the board. The only way it works is to start a new thread . . and even then, I can't respond to my own new thread . .I'm thinking of perhaps registering in a new name and seeing if that will remedy my problem.
This particular board is one that has gone deeply in my heart. The book of Revelation is an experience in me, no longer instilled through knowledge and study . . .both of those things are still obtained in me, but not through the laboring of defining every word or comparing every translation or reference.
Ever since I was young, my eyes have required assistance to see things clearly. In my earlier years of adulthood, I elected to forego wearing glasses due to my belief that they would clash with how good looking I was. But eventually, reality took over and I decided it's best to see the beautiful girls that turn me down, than to not see at all. In the end, God fixed that little issue by having one of them marry me. . . who knew?
But my point is, once my glasses became a part of me . . .there was no going back. And that's the way it is for me spiritually. There is a realm here where EVERYTHING fits together and it's purpose for the spirit to reveal the "mysteries" the Paul does indeed speak of (some referred to them as secrets) is not to lift any one person above another, but it's to bring all attention to the glory and love of God to man.
Pursuing the natural aspects of these things in Revelation or any other book, does many things . .but illuminating the glory and love doesn't seem to be at the top. Literal interpretation brings division because everyone has their own interpretation of what literally is supposed to happen. It brings condemnation, all though I'm pleasantly surprised that the conversations these last couple days have not come to this as of yet.
But for me, most importantly, it distracts us "from" God who is spirit, and it puts all the focus on the destruction of man . .who is flesh. The over all message for me that Revelation brings is that man overcomes his flesh through the finished work of the cross of Christ. Our discussions quickly push aside the fact that this entire book is a revealing of Jesus. It's not about a building of brick and mortar being rebuilt. It's not about one world government or leader. It's not about evil men dictating their evil nature over a powerless world.
It is a revelation of Jesus who is what? A spirit. This is a revelation of a Spirit of God. And yes, God does use natural things to reveal spiritual truths . .but this is not a revelation of a spiritual truth . .this is a revelation of The Spirit. And as is with other spiritual language . .all of these things are signs . . .they are not literal. There is not a literal bottomless pit with literal locusts flying out. There are not constant lightnings and deafening thunderings in the natural . these are all spiritual realities.
Look . . all through Scripture leading up to this, the message was that we are not of this world . .we are not bound to the laws any longer. We are aliens. The things that we thrive on are not physical but spiritual. Jesus is a spirit, I am a spirit. Scripture even states that His spirit speaks to "my" spirit . . . so why is there such an embrace to the natural when the message is a continuance of the spiritual?
It is clear that there is a chasm between the two sides on this thought. I've stated this before on previous threads in this forum and it's still true . . . these two premises will never blend as one because one is embracing natural while the other is embracing spiritual and you can't mix oil with water.
For me, walking in faith is to "trust" in the invisible things of God without demanding proof every step of the way. The Bible is not the final word. Church has taught us that it is, but it's not. It is a sign that points to the final Word. But it's not the final word itself. Why? Because in it we're told that God will "no longer" write his laws in stone . . .meaning there is a change in the way God communcates to us. But now, he's writing his Word in OUR HEARTS . . .which is not my head, it's my spirit. It's not in the natural things, they are simply signs pointing to the deeper things.
So, with these new perscriptions, I "look for" the spiritual pictures as I read the sign in Scripture. The natural is always the most obvious and even though I am not a full preterist, I do beleive that the things naturally written were to a natural people that already experienced these things naturally. Even though . . .the whole world didn't see the sun go black, the moon turn red . . all that . .those are "signs" implying other things . . it wasn't about a literal moon going black . . and if you think about it . . the literal interpretation just makes no sense.
According to the literalists, there is still to be a remnant of people that survive the destruction of the earth . . .do you have any idea of what would happen to the earth if the sun went black ??? They say that if the earth moves just one fraction closer to the sun, it'll burn up . .and a fraction away from the sun, we'll freeze solid . .but they want you to believe the sun will be removed all together and people survive? All the stars are supposedly supposed to fall to the earth . . .there are planets out there that are so big compared to the earth that literally, the earth is the size of the tiniest pinhead you could imagine . . .and yet "all" the stars are supposed to fall "on" the earth??
Pursue the spirit . .that's the only place where you will find life that you can live in. In the natural, we've been dying since the day we were born.
Quote from: NathanLook . . all through Scripture leading up to this, the message was that we are not of this world . .we are not bound to the laws any longer. We are aliens. The things that we thrive on are not physical but spiritual. Jesus is a spirit, I am a spirit. Scripture even states that His spirit speaks to "my" spirit . . . so why is there such an embrace to the natural when the message is a continuance of the spiritual?
Because that is what Jesus brought to us. He is the Word become flesh. He is the Spiritual come down to the physical. That is where you get miracles, at this intersection when Spirit interacts with the physical world. This is the way I see it, that Spirit is to transform the very day to day physical that we were born into.
Even so, his miracles always made the lives of people better--food, physical and emotional healing, raising from the dead--because he is all about everything this world is not: Life beyond measure. The miracle is his pure love.
John 6:26
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Dearest Tony,
It is nice to meet you, and thank you for the response. :hihat:
I like to think of heaven as having hearty purposes and extraordinary remedies.
To be perceiving is to attain awareness or understanding of; unearthing an obscured truth and grasping the nature of that something, bringing to light that which was forgotten or hidden. Seeing the true light of that something derives from the "Spirit of truth" which dwells within – living it, as contrasted with that of simply being told.
I have often found that:
"Man cannot comprehend the existence of error; when to deeply immersed in it."
The phrase "the kingdom of God is within you," so often quoted to show a present mysterious immanence is a mistranslation. When the Greek "en," in, is used with a plural, it should be rendered "among." The Lord said "the kingdom of God is among you."
Actually, it is in the midst of, as hidden in the trees; the people.
It takes considerable time for man to let go of the teachings of other men, while these men literally make a fortune "among" themselves – as they see it.
The kingdom of God is not coming with scrutiny ...as Taffy would say, tis true!
But many are syncretistic in their demons of idolatry with the natural desires of the flesh, and fleshly wisdom with spiritual understanding. Thus, they seek a sign for the Kingdom of heaven, as in "the" article, or "an" anti-Christ, yet, there are many.
Shalom (peace) of God to you, as well.
peacemaker
" Trust in The LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths." (Proverbs 3:5-6) :Book:
Taffy, I'm real busy so will be short and sweet:
Jesus spoke about the wheat and tares. He started out with a parable using figures of speech (wheat and tares) and explained the literalness of those figurative expressions by stating this:
Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."
Now you want to reverse the literalness of what Jesus said the ideal seed and darnel is and make it figurative again and your figurative idea does not match up whith what Jesus said.
You can't say: The wheat are the sons of the kingdom and then you turn that into meaning "the soul." Jesus didn't say the tare (darnel) is the soul. He said the tare (darnel) is the sons of the wicked one. The wicked one is Satan. Jesus did not say the wheat is hid behind the veil.
I said earlier
If the man of lawlessness has already demonstrated he is God in the temple then the body of Christ was withdrawn almost 2000 years ago. The nations have been under the iron club of the 12 apostles for almost 2000 years with their headquarters in Israel (that's if the new heavens and new earth didn't come almost 1000 years ago). We are not under grace if we've been under the 12.
And you replied:
now ya lost me with this bit...could ya explain again :icon_flower:
Tony's reply:
2Th 2:6 And now you are aware what is detaining, for him to be unveiled in his own era."
Concerning the man of lawlessness coming. I believe as long as we believers of the nations are not snatched away to meet the Lord in the air . . .
1Th 4:17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."
That we are the ones detaining him. Once we are taken out, once the complement of the nations is entering:
Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering"
once that happens then around that time the man of lawlessness will be revealed.
So, if the man of lawlessness came in 70 A.D. then the body of Christ left to be with Christ before 70 A.D. and so till about 1070 A.D. the earth went through the millennial reign of Christ being under the iron club of the 12 disciples and around 1070 A.D. the earth was someone destroyed by fire, all the dead, great and small were resurrected and stood before the great white throne, Satan was captured and has remained captured since that time and God and Christ have been ruling the earth from Jerusalem in righteousness.
Taffy, I'm real busy so will be short and sweet:
QuoteJesus spoke about the wheat and tares. He started out with a parable using figures of speech (wheat and tares) and explained the literalness of those figurative expressions by stating this:
Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."
Now you want to reverse the literalness of what Jesus said the ideal seed and darnel is and make it figurative again and your figurative idea does not match up whith what Jesus said.
You can't say: The wheat are the sons of the kingdom and then you turn that into meaning "the soul." Jesus didn't say the tare (darnel) is the soul. He said the tare (darnel) is the sons of the wicked one. The wicked one is Satan. Jesus did not say the wheat is hid behind the veil
Hi Tony
Hope your day is a Good one Bro, even if ya are Busy.
Yup your right ,
The Field is the WORLD, thats everyone Both Natural and what consists Inwardly , man Himself made from the Dust of the Earth.
As Ive endeavoured to share, tis two fold the Natural bearing witness to the Spiritual, but this is where we differ.
So, Naturally Christ uses the Pharisees, Likened to the Tares( those of LAW, Hidden behind the veil to Explain whats Hidden WITHIN)
Which is as Paul came to see the secret or Mystery of the ages,which is Christ( WHEAT= The New Soul ,Breath of Life , ZOE spirit) and the The Tare( that which is the Soul of man, the enmity of the heart and Mind) which Both dwell WITHIN man, but the the TRUE life spirit, Christ WHEAT is Hidden Until HES revealed.
Tony,to RE- VEAL means to Un vieil what was already there, its Not New , but its perceived to be New,
Did Paul see this..yes he did, Christ Revealed himself to Him, removing the scales from His eyes( understanding) to SEE WHAT was Hidden all along,..the Tearing of the Veil in the literal Temple when Christ died On the Cross, MAking Entry to the Holy of Holies Possible....Its all the same message Tony.
WHo are Blind,?..well those who dont see, and who those who dont see?. those shown after SAUL, those hidden behind the veil because of their Pride in the LAW,..tis a simple as chips as we say here.
ever Notice the Wisdom of this world is Devilish ,speaks of Mans perceived Wisdom, Knowledge of LAW,..Therefore they are Blind to the TRUTH which set them FREE, they cling to the Form not the reality
Come on Tony Just who did Christ Preach To....Ill hazard a Guess..Catholics?......No, Jews....
He circled Galilee speaking to HIS country men Bro..the message was for the People of the DAY bud....
He spoke figurativly But even having explained to the Disciples I dare say them really grasped what Christ was saying.
The flesh Tony is what paul speaks of , tis the Soul of man which consists of the HEART and Mind , weird egh, that In the NEW God promises a NEW HEART AND NEW MIND, ...seems to me ,it replaces the Old..First the Natural, then the spiritual....
The oLd perishes Tony , burns up, comes at The END of the WORLD, and age or era and that Era Ended with Christ,
Likened to the Tares which is The soul of Man, again tis all the same...
The secret Bro is Christ In us..who is HIDDEN until hes revealed..
Psa 25:14 The
secret of the LORD [is] with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
Psa 31:20
Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues
Psa 91:1 He that
dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall
abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Pro 3:32 For the
froward [is] abomination to the LORD: but
his secret [is] with the righteous Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been
kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Rom 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the
revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to
whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
Gal 1:16 To
reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
The Law is the Shadow of the reality which was to come
Deu 29:29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.
See it with the Newness of their SOUL
Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].
The DAY of The LORD revealed in the Hearts of men
Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
we enter through the veil via faith ,is the WHEAT\Corn not the BREAD of Life
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the
day when the Son of man is revealed. Rom 1:17 For therein is the
righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
That Via His Garce all the WORLD should be made ONEm that the secret be unveiled equally to them
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Are not the Wicked the same as the tares...which really speaks for the Soul of man
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Tony bro...speak as you will , youll not convince me otherwise.
Christ dwells in the Hearts OF ALL men, Till the time its RE-VEALED...tis the Mystery even Now very few seem to Understand
Sgs 7:2 Thy navel [is like] a round goblet, [which] wanteth not liquor: thy
belly [is like] an heap of wheat set about with lilies. Luk 12:25 And which of you with taking thought
can add to his stature one cubit? Luk 12:26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
Luk 12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Luk 12:28 If then
God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and
to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
Man will promptly defend any thought, not at variance with his expectations, nor contrary to his own interests, as the eyes can only see what the mind has, is, and will be prepared to comprehend. And, no matter what we do in the letter of the law (in the flesh), it cannot result in life in the Spirit, unless, God through Christ changes the individuals heart, or the heart of a nation.
It's a matter of the heart, within, and the removal of undesirable elements that were cultivated from the very beginning in the imaginations and beliefs of men.
There is a changing of our heart, and renewing of our mind from the past, to the present and into future generations that must take place - until, "All shall come to the knowledge of the truth!"
Life isn't about waiting for a neon sign, nor for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain, by the light of His Spirit.
One Bible passage that often comes to mind from the heart of the Spirit, time and time again, when considering this poisonous seed is:
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings." (Hosea 6:6)
Which is also mentioned by Jesus:
"Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matthew 9:13)
"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent."(Matthew 12:7)
However, there is no love without forgiveness; for what power has love, but forgiveness.
peacemaker
Tony wrote:
Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."
Now you want to reverse the literalness of what Jesus said the ideal seed and darnel is and make it figurative again and your figurative idea does not match up whith what Jesus said.
You can't say: The wheat are the sons of the kingdom and then you turn that into meaning "the soul." Jesus didn't say the tare (darnel) is the soul. He said the tare (darnel) is the sons of the wicked one. The wicked one is Satan. Jesus did not say the wheat is hid behind the veil.
Actually I can and the reson I can is that last little stance at the very end of what Jesus was explaining on this subject "he that hath an ear . . ." This to me, is Jesus saying there is more to this than what you're seeing on the surface . . .seeing things spiritually simply means you are applying them "internally" in the sense that it's not about God and men, but God and "man" . .my man . .my inner man. In this way, the wheat is my spirit, the tares are my flesh.
God doesn't want the saints separated from the sinners .. . he wants to reach the sinners "through" the saints . . .kinda hard to do if ya got them separated from each other.
I'm sorry Taffy, but I just do not agree with you.
If Jesus wanted us to know that the wheat is what you said it is, He would not have said the wheat is the sons of the kingdom.
If Jesus wanted us to know that the tares are what you said they are, He would not have said the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
When Jesus comes back he is going to separate the wheat from the tares. He is going to cast out of the kingdom those doing wickedly.
This isn't about the soul and the flesh but about the kingdom of God and who is going to be in it and not in it during the 1000 year reign.
Love ya anyway.
Tony
Quote from: Tony N on December 22, 2008, 03:04:21 PM
I'm sorry Taffy, but I just do not agree with you.
If Jesus wanted us to know that the wheat is what you said it is, He would not have said the wheat is the sons of the kingdom.
If Jesus wanted us to know that the tares are what you said they are, He would not have said the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
When Jesus comes back he is going to separate the wheat from the tares. He is going to cast out of the kingdom those doing wickedly.
This isn't about the soul and the flesh but about the kingdom of God and who is going to be in it and not in it during the 1000 year reign.
Love ya anyway.
Tony
Hi Tony No probs Bud...Non at all :icon_flower:
Love ya too Bro :icon_flower:
Thanks for chatting
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 18, 2008, 08:16:24 PM
First the Natural,as was With the First Adam,the Old Covenant, The shadow then the Reality, the New C, etc,
A Temple Build With Hands Has gone and WONT be for mine again,...
I dont read, Natural then spiritual then Back to Natural :dontknow:
Hiya!
I know this is from far back in it this thread.
Speaking along those lines, I am still amazed how many people think they will be raised up in natural bodies that will be made immortal, instead of going from a natural death and remaining dead. Yes, I understand that sounds strange, though the resurrection body is not a nutural body transformed, but a completely new spiritual body.
I do not read us ever going back to a natural body.
I also believe that this new body, is the true Temple.
The Sons of the kingdom - Who are they?
And, the Sons of the wicked one - Who are these?
The answer depends on one's understanding of who the Son's are; those of God, or those of man!
Because there are only two, unless Christ was more than both; the Son of God and Son of man.
It amazes me, that most do not understand, "He was tempted, as we are." Yet, He sinned, not! (perhaps, another thread?)
If there are other posts, or threads on the forum with respect to anything brought up herein – please let me know, and I will read them before opening up another discussion. Especially, in reference to demons, devils and Satan.
Thanks!
peacemaker
"A thousand years is but a day."
Quote from: YoungYuni on December 22, 2008, 10:23:00 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 18, 2008, 08:16:24 PM
First the Natural,as was With the First Adam,the Old Covenant, The shadow then the Reality, the New C, etc,
A Temple Build With Hands Has gone and WONT be for mine again,...
I dont read, Natural then spiritual then Back to Natural :dontknow:
Hiya!
I know this is from far back in it this thread.
Speaking along those lines, I am still amazed how many people think they will be raised up in natural bodies that will be made immortal, instead of going from a natural death and remaining dead. Yes, I understand that sounds strange, though the resurrection body is not a nutural body transformed, but a completely new spiritual body.
I do not read us ever going back to a natural body.
I also believe that this new body, is the true Temple.
Why would God go to all the trouble of opening up millions of tombs and graves of dead saints, and with increddible power bring their bodies back to life and then have them come out of those tombs and graves to meet those who are alive in the air if all they get are spiritual bodies?
Don't make a lick 'o sense to me.
Furthermore it is "first the soulish then the spiritual":
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
Right now humanity is soulish. Does that mean we don't have flesh and bones and blood, only souls? It just means our makeup is controlled more by the soul. . . . soulish desires.
Likewise when we are "spiritual" it does not mean we won't have flesh and bones just like Jesus had when He ascended into heaven and will come back like He left.
Luk 24:39 Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for
a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."
So being "spiritual" does not mean we won't have a body with bones any more but that we will be controlled by the spirit rather than the soul.
Tony
http://saviourofall.org
Quote from: peacemaker on December 23, 2008, 06:38:26 AM
The Sons of the kingdom - Who are they?
And, the Sons of the wicked one - Who are these?
The answer depends on one's understanding of who the Son's are; those of God, or those of man!
Because there are only two, unless Christ was more than both; the Son of God and Son of man.
It amazes me, that most do not understand, "He was tempted, as we are." Yet, He sinned, not! (perhaps, another thread?)
If there are other posts, or threads on the forum with respect to anything brought up herein – please let me know, and I will read them before opening up another discussion. Especially, in reference to demons, devils and Satan.
Thanks!
peacemaker
"A thousand years is but a day."
Dear peacemaker, the quote which ends your post is suspect:
2Pe 3:8 Now of this one thing you are not to be oblivious, beloved, that one day is with the Lord
as a thousand years and a thousand years
as one day."
It is a figure of speech called a simile. It is not saying one day is a thousand years or a thousand years is one day but that it is as . . . . or "like".
Furthermore, Jesus told us what the tares and wheat represent:
Mat 13:37-42 Now He, answering, said, "He Who is sowing the ideal seed is the Son of Mankind." (38) Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one." (39) Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers. (40) Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon." (41) The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, (42) and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
Sower = Son of Mankind = Jesus
Field = world
ideal seed = sons of the kingdom
darnel = sons of the wicked one
Enemy sower = Adversary = Satan
harvest = conclusion of the eon
furnace of fire = eonian chastening along with the nations that did not succor Jesus' brethren (Matt.25:31-46).
Jesus did not say the sons were either sons of God or sons of man as you imply. They are either sons of the kingdom or sons of the wicked one. (period).
Tony
Quote from: Tony N on December 19, 2008, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 19, 2008, 08:52:40 PM
Tony, give me one good reason in your own words why God would return to animal sacrifice after the cross. It makes no sense.
I'll give you a couple instead of one:
- The bible says there will be sacrifices
- Because it is a means that God will use to show them the real meaning of sacrifice.
- Besides that, I don't think that the sacrifices are for sin but for approach.
Quote
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
That is saying Christ can't come and be a sacrifice for sins again.
Been wanting to respond to this one to . . .
To the first one, our discussion derives from the fact that one thinks the Bible says it's going to happen, and the other believes that part of the law is already fulfilled . . .so you're really not answering the question.
Second . . really have a hard time digesting that one . . .
What your'e saying is . .the cross then, wasn't enough . .now God is going to go "back" to the very thing that "he" violently removed because it was never intended to be permenant, but always was to be a pattern of Christ, the ultimate sacrifice. And God allowed the slaughter of those who chose to take the curse upon themselves rather than accept Christ as the Messiah, just so now, God can "return" to the pattern after Christ again in order to . . .how'd you put it . . .
show them the real meaning of sacrifice Seriously???
So Jesus dying on the cross wasn't the "real" meaning of sacrifice? OR . . . the labor of the priests really "do" cause one to achieve righteousness? You're killin' me!!
Then the number three seemed to revert to logistics . . .
I am convinced . . .what God opens, no man can close, and what God closes, no man can open. It was God who brought an end to the sacrifices . .that was the shaking Hebrews 12 is referring to. It was the final shaking of Israel to loose them from conforming to the old religious system. I take the Bible just as literal as the next guy . . .but I try to keep it within the generation to who it was literally written to.
I mean . .if we really think about this. . .the Jews have ALWAYS wanted to go back to their original way of worship . . .just like they did way back in the Old Covenant . . .somebody would come along go to war, kick their little butts . . wipe out the city, tear down the temple . . .and leave . .the Jews would come back in . . pick up the pieces, rebuild said temple, and continue on with their ritualistic worship . .and that's great, they were supposed to because Christ had not yet come.
BUT . . .when Christ "did" come . . .enemy comes in, they go to war, kick their butts, destroy the city . . .demolish the temple . . and leave . . .but FOR SOME STRANGE REASON it's been 2000 years and nobody has BEEN ABLE to rebuild the thing . .even though the desire for it has never faltered, no one has rebuilt it. Doesn't that seem just a little odd to you?
Unless . . .
What God tears down, can not be rebuilt.
Hi crowbar--
Makes sense to me. :thumbsup:
But that's not to say they won't try. I know they want to...
What worries me, if they do try, all hell will break lose, because that is one of the holiest places to 1 billion muslims.
Quote from: crowbar on December 23, 2008, 07:49:25 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 19, 2008, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 19, 2008, 08:52:40 PM
Tony, give me one good reason in your own words why God would return to animal sacrifice after the cross. It makes no sense.
I'll give you a couple instead of one:
- The bible says there will be sacrifices
- Because it is a means that God will use to show them the real meaning of sacrifice.
- Besides that, I don't think that the sacrifices are for sin but for approach.
Quote
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
That is saying Christ can't come and be a sacrifice for sins again.
Been wanting to respond to this one to . . .
To the first one, our discussion derives from the fact that one thinks the Bible says it's going to happen, and the other believes that part of the law is already fulfilled . . .so you're really not answering the question.
Second . . really have a hard time digesting that one . . .
What your'e saying is . .the cross then, wasn't enough . .now God is going to go "back" to the very thing that "he" violently removed because it was never intended to be permenant, but always was to be a pattern of Christ, the ultimate sacrifice. And God allowed the slaughter of those who chose to take the curse upon themselves rather than accept Christ as the Messiah, just so now, God can "return" to the pattern after Christ again in order to . . .how'd you put it . . .show them the real meaning of sacrifice Seriously???
So Jesus dying on the cross wasn't the "real" meaning of sacrifice? OR . . . the labor of the priests really "do" cause one to achieve righteousness? You're killin' me!!
Then the number three seemed to revert to logistics . . .
I am convinced . . .what God opens, no man can close, and what God closes, no man can open. It was God who brought an end to the sacrifices . .that was the shaking Hebrews 12 is referring to. It was the final shaking of Israel to loose them from conforming to the old religious system. I take the Bible just as literal as the next guy . . .but I try to keep it within the generation to who it was literally written to.
I mean . .if we really think about this. . .the Jews have ALWAYS wanted to go back to their original way of worship . . .just like they did way back in the Old Covenant . . .somebody would come along go to war, kick their little butts . . wipe out the city, tear down the temple . . .and leave . .the Jews would come back in . . pick up the pieces, rebuild said temple, and continue on with their ritualistic worship . .and that's great, they were supposed to because Christ had not yet come.
BUT . . .when Christ "did" come . . .enemy comes in, they go to war, kick their butts, destroy the city . . .demolish the temple . . and leave . . .but FOR SOME STRANGE REASON it's been 2000 years and nobody has BEEN ABLE to rebuild the thing . .even though the desire for it has never faltered, no one has rebuilt it. Doesn't that seem just a little odd to you?
Unless . . .
What God tears down, can not be rebuilt.
crowbar, I like your handle.
Obviously God did not tear down the sacrificial system because it is going to be re-instituted during the 1000 year reign.
It doesn't seem odd to me that no one has rebuilt the temple yet for almost 2000 years. That is because it is not time yet. I imagine the man of lawlessness must be the one to do it and then he will show that he is God then Christ comes back and kicks his butt.
Anyway, the sacrifices of the Mosaic law looked forward to the death of Christ. They did not replace Christ's death and in fact could not make anyone righteous. The sacrifices in the future, which the Scriptures, which cannot be annulled, say must occur, look backwards to the death of Christ. Again, they cannot make anyone righteous as the sacrifice of Christ only can.
QuoteObviously God did not tear down the sacrificial system because it is going to be re-instituted during the 1000 year reign.
To what purpose? Is this something that man is going to do on his own? Or, is God in favor of this?
Quote from: crowbar on December 23, 2008, 07:49:25 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 19, 2008, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 19, 2008, 08:52:40 PM
Tony, give me one good reason in your own words why God would return to animal sacrifice after the cross. It makes no sense.
I'll give you a couple instead of one:
- The bible says there will be sacrifices
- Because it is a means that God will use to show them the real meaning of sacrifice.
- Besides that, I don't think that the sacrifices are for sin but for approach.
Quote
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
That is saying Christ can't come and be a sacrifice for sins again.
Been wanting to respond to this one to . . .
To the first one, our discussion derives from the fact that one thinks the Bible says it's going to happen, and the other believes that part of the law is already fulfilled . . .so you're really not answering the question.
Second . . really have a hard time digesting that one . . .
What your'e saying is . .the cross then, wasn't enough . .now God is going to go "back" to the very thing that "he" violently removed because it was never intended to be permenant, but always was to be a pattern of Christ, the ultimate sacrifice. And God allowed the slaughter of those who chose to take the curse upon themselves rather than accept Christ as the Messiah, just so now, God can "return" to the pattern after Christ again in order to . . .how'd you put it . . .show them the real meaning of sacrifice Seriously???
So Jesus dying on the cross wasn't the "real" meaning of sacrifice? OR . . . the labor of the priests really "do" cause one to achieve righteousness? You're killin' me!!
Then the number three seemed to revert to logistics . . .
I am convinced . . .what God opens, no man can close, and what God closes, no man can open. It was God who brought an end to the sacrifices . .that was the shaking Hebrews 12 is referring to. It was the final shaking of Israel to loose them from conforming to the old religious system. I take the Bible just as literal as the next guy . . .but I try to keep it within the generation to who it was literally written to.
I mean . .if we really think about this. . .the Jews have ALWAYS wanted to go back to their original way of worship . . .just like they did way back in the Old Covenant . . .somebody would come along go to war, kick their little butts . . wipe out the city, tear down the temple . . .and leave . .the Jews would come back in . . pick up the pieces, rebuild said temple, and continue on with their ritualistic worship . .and that's great, they were supposed to because Christ had not yet come.
BUT . . .when Christ "did" come . . .enemy comes in, they go to war, kick their butts, destroy the city . . .demolish the temple . . and leave . . .but FOR SOME STRANGE REASON it's been 2000 years and nobody has BEEN ABLE to rebuild the thing . .even though the desire for it has never faltered, no one has rebuilt it. Doesn't that seem just a little odd to you?
Unless . . .
What God tears down, can not be rebuilt.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on December 23, 2008, 08:34:53 PM
Hi crowbar--
Makes sense to me. :thumbsup:
But that's not to say they won't try. I know they want to...
What worries me, if they do try, all hell will break lose, because that is one of the holiest places to 1 billion muslims.
why does that worry you Molly??
You said . . .
Obviously God did not tear down the sacrificial system because it is going to be re-instituted during the 1000 year reign.
Which I find extremely funny . . .because I believe the exact same thing. God did not tear down the sacrifice because it is going to be rebuilt. He tore it down because THERE'S NO USE FOR IT ANYMORE . . .I think you forgot to add that part on the end.
Seriously . . . to say what you're saying . .then Jesus lied . . .it "isn't" finished . .and he didn't die once . .and . . .for . . .ALL.
Up to this point, I have understood your argument. I wholly understand your premise and reasoning. Like you with me, I've disagreed with you . . .but now at this point, I'm somewhat surprised that you truly feel that even though the tabernacle was patterned after Christ . . and even though when Christ came, that Levitical order was removed as the New order under the line of Melchezedec came in . .that you "still" think the Bible teaches that after all of that . . .the old order is going to be "re" established . .that is truly a head-scratcher. I'm at a loss of words . . .I'm sure they'll eventually come . . .but I'm not sure anything I say at this point is going to be of any benefit.
I Think Tony mentioned its for the Folk to UNDERSTAND the purpose of the Sacrifices :icon_flower:
my guess is, is it's because Tony thinks Israel was "set aside", to be dealt with at a later time; while the "chuch age of grace" is going on now.
Quote from: Zeek on December 23, 2008, 09:07:47 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 23, 2008, 08:34:53 PM
Hi crowbar--
Makes sense to me. :thumbsup:
But that's not to say they won't try. I know they want to...
What worries me, if they do try, all hell will break lose, because that is one of the holiest places to 1 billion muslims.
why does that worry you Molly??
Because, among other things, it will mean world war three, and millions of people will die--needlessly.
Quote from: TonyTaffy, the man of lawlessness is DEMONSTRATING that he is God.
2Th 2:3-4 No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction, (4) who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
It is one thing to "proclaim to be God" and quite another to "demonstrate that he himself is God."
Tony, if the temple of God is the body (which we know it is) why can't this be referring to satan entering a human body and lording it over the world with signs and wonders? Maybe pretending to be the returning Messiah...and duping the whole world...
What makes you think this is referring to some temple in Jerusalem?
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. --Mat 24
actually Molly, if one would look at the definition of that word "temple" in 2 Thessalonians, one would find that it's the exact same Greek word Paul used when he stated "What, know ye not that you are a "temple" of the Holy Ghost????
Same word . .same meaning. The temple really is you and the man of lawlessness is your soul . . .your carnal mind. It's is is your Eve that is constantly desiring after your Adam. Always wanting the control . .my mind is always wanting to "understand" everything before I "decide" whether or not it's acceptable. . . .the mind is always that part of us that wants everything done . .and not only just "done" but "done a certain way". The spirit is like the wind . . .there is no real logic or reasoning as to where it comes from or where it goes . .but the carnal mind likes everything in straight order.
When I give in to my carnal mind, I am letting "that" take the throne of my "temple"
What? Know ye not that you are the "temple"? Built with living stones with Christ as the cornerstone. He did as he said he would do . . .'tear this temple down (flesh) and in three days (resurrection) I (not man) will build it up . . .we are in the third day.
"temple"
G3485
ναός
naos
nah-os'
From a primary word ναίω naiō (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple: - shrine, temple. Compare G2411.
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
--Acts 7:48
Quote from: Nathanwe are in the third day.
:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan
we are in the third day.
Nathan, Would you please explain. Are you saying two thousand years have past and we are in the 3rd thousand years? How far into this 3rd day before the return of Christ? At the beginning or toward the end? Or, do you see this in another way?
CHB
Dear peacemaker, the quote which ends your post is suspect:
Dearest Tony,
"Knowing is power; understanding is wisdom."
2Pe 3:8 Now of this one thing you are not to be oblivious, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." It is a figure of speech called a simile. It is not saying one day is a thousand years or a thousand years is one day but that it is as . . . . or "like".
But of course...
Obviously, God did not tear down the sacrificial system because it is going to be re-instituted during the 1000 year reign.
Is a simile, "like" a sacrificial system, equal to a literal one-thousand years?
"To freeze a moment in time is to be forever stuck in the same place."
Furthermore, Jesus told us what the tares and wheat represent:
"God looks at the heart, not at the label."
Living according to the prince of the air - that which is unseen (i.e., the wicked one) is to walk after the "lusts of our flesh" which comes from within us, based on our heart condition - not from anything outside of us.
David's lust (temptation) which led to adultery and murder came from within "the heart of man." As everyone is tempted by his own inordinate desires; a snare of the intents of the heart, which is, then, conceived in the mind.
Our sinful heart is the father of lies; the seed of corruption.
"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)
And, Jesus said, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornication, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man."
The heart of man will misuse the Holy Word of God, and many false prophets will come, professing to be an angel (messenger) of light – truth.
According to the Scriptures, the heart is the center of all the operations of human life – and "so as a man thinks." The nature of man's deepest, most sincerest feelings and beliefs, come from the heart; the spirit of man!
When we speak a lie, it is not from some evil spirit being that has entered us -"For nothing that has entered, can defile a man." But that which comes out of their mouth! A mind has the capacity to reason; but the impulse of the heart wants the final say.
The idea of something entering Judas, may have actually been the thoughts of others - those who were an adversary (Satan) of Christ. But Judas was the responsible party, in Christ own words:
"Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!"
"What you are going to do, do quickly."
Judas wasn't a robot (without a mind of his own), but he may have been a puppet on someone's satanic string.
It is man who chooses to smoke, drink, curse, steal, lie, hate, and betray others – including the murdering of the innocent. Our Father, the true and living God, does not cause us to sin!
"If you defile a river with sewage; the water is not potable."
To desire anything earnestly is from the heart, and the condition of determines our health.
One of the definitions of the word "accusation" deals with charging someone with a crime based on mere words, thus, we are convicted upon "suspicion" caused by the accuser and charged judicially with an offense; to be suspected of wrong – a public process!
The tongue can be sharper than a needle filled with a lethal injection; extremely venomous.
God knew what Joseph's eleven brothers had intended, and our Father knew what would happen to his Christ - "Let us crucify, him!"
They publicly sacrificed the "innocent" of God, who exposed them for who and what they are – giving his life in the process. Yet, many do not truly understand the story:
"If I be lifted up; put to death."
True correction comes from the Spirit. And all will come to the knowledge of the truth, for we will all wake up on the other side of the bed - the right side of the story:
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."
Of course, I will be accused of heresy by some, as they return to their former way of life. Not willing to suffer with him, rather, they will continue to paint the story of having him suffer for them, while they collect millions.
Have you ever been told, that "you" would crucify him, all over again? Think about that one for a few hundred years.
In the scheme of things the beast-man recuperates his old traditions, missing the mark as he lives in a wilderness museum of the natural; the blind guides, fools, whitewashed tombs that are full of corruption, lawless men, serpents, snakes - a brood of vipers - seed counting, gnat straining, camel swallowing murderers.
But, the water of life will destroy the adulterous and perjured woman, in due time! There is a season for everything.
So, how much has man added, or taken away from the truth? Appears, he has been a liar, an accuser, and a murderer of the innocent from the beginning – just to name a few.
The Atonement is to be AT ONE MENT with God, and this is the work of Christ; His Spirit. It wasn't merely a "substitution theory" of, as we continue to die in our sin - "for the wages of sin is death!"
Those who see only his outward form on the cross of humanity for their sin, do not understand the grace he brought to them:
"Reconciliation, in the blood of the innocent."
In the case of Jesus' death, something else happened other than his just being a scapegoat or blood sacrifice to many, thus, we are forced to confront the reality of the cross because he did not stay sacrificed. He was only wounded for our transgressions, being the "sacrifice to end all sacrifices" from the very foundation of the world. And He lives.
Is there a cure for cancer? Yes, of course there is, but the community at large still prefers to maintain an economical foundation based on the continuation of sacrifice.
These indoctrinations of men, such as; tithing, hell fire, blood atonements, imaginary serpents and the victimization of the innocent are fugacious at best. An "us" and "them" mentality.
If we do not change our lifestyle and eating habits, especially of adhering to the thoughts of the majority - we will not understand the true cure, rather, one will continue in the sacrificing of the innocent, and the lies of the serpent.
"He takes no pleasure in the death of another."
Man seems to be satisfied and concerned about their ransom which governs their life, but not for that of the innocent.
We have no obligation to the sinful nature (the wicked one), nor to any thought that is dubious, rather, let His Spirit lead you - transcending the minds of men from death to life, according to His Will.
Many, unwittingly, have suppressed the truth, so as a man thinks.However, a negative cannot exist without a positive, else we'd have no charge.
It was their hands that lifted him up to the cross, yet, he lays down his life willingly in order to draw all men to himself.
"When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself." (John 12:32).
When he was put to death, his Spirit came to all men, each in due time and order.
Perhaps thoughts of the ascension of Jesus may come to mind - Jesus going up higher and higher on a staircase of clouds - undeniably powerful and almighty.
Being lifted up has many connotations of honor and glory. The only problem, I see, is that Jesus wasn't referring to any of this, as nowhere in the Bible does it suggest that God's followers are supposed to "lift him up" or "crucify him."
You only depend on textural proof? Then, how do you even know that Jesus spoke that which is written? How did Peter know who Christ was?
"...But what about you, he asked ...Who do you say I am?"
This question was not answered through a public opinion poll.
"Blessed are you ...for this was not revealed to you by man ...but by my Father (Spirit) in heaven."
What a revelation!
The right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment. And, we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong. May we merit to always make the proper selection!
Giving us a choice, is not at the expense of his Sovereignty, nor does this subject God to our thoughts and ways.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit, not in the lusts of the flesh. Nor in the demons of the mind that have been placed there by the fallen messengers of times past.
For this reason, I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord from whom all in the heavens and earth is named, in order that He might give us according to the riches of His power, to be strengthened in the inner man through His Spirit, that He might dwell in our hearts (renewing our mind) through faith; having become rooted and grounded in love in order that we might be strengthened to firmly grasp with all wisdom, what is the width, length, depth and height – and to know the love of God which surpasses all human understanding in order that we be filled to the completeness of Him, who is able to do exceedingly above all we ask or think according to the power that is working in us!
"So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal ...we live by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 4:18 and 5:7)
Was the Bible ever intended to be understood, as literal - a news report? Or are the Scriptures designed to reach into the deepest regions of the soul, transforming each of us into a new person. If so, are we prepared to accept this transformation?
"Those that do not remember the past, merely repeat it."
And, my apologies for the shortness of this response ...with love!
peacemaker
The only one in the temple of God at present, other than His Spirit, is you! (Just a closing thought.)
Quote27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
What does that mean? He's going to be everywhere at once?
The sons? :mshock:
:bigGrin:
Quote from: Molly on December 24, 2008, 09:27:20 AM
Quote27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
What does that mean? He's going to be everywhere at once?
The sons? :mshock:
:bigGrin:
No. When it is dark out and you see lightning from the east and it goes to the west it is very apparent that you just saw a lightning bolt. You don't have to squint to see it or try to find its appearing. So also it will be like that when the Son of man comes. It will be very apparent to all.
Obviously Jesus didn't come in 70 A.D. because it was apparent to no one.
Let's see, if God specially chose you to be a special nation, a light to the world; placed you in a special garden, formed covenant/relationship with you, saved you from slavery in Egypt, parted the Red Sea for you, and over and over and over again showed you his mercy and love; gave you the ark, the temple, the law, etc, etc; and disciplined you as a father to a child, etc. etc...
and then brought John the Baptist years later onto the scene, then Jesus himself full of signs and wonders, then the cross, and the resurrection, and then the incredible signs and work of the apostles; and despite all this; you chose to still stay attached to the physical temple and all it's ordinances, despite warnings and warnings, signs and signs; and the spreading of the gospel to the whole world, and the message of repent, turn from the physical to the spiritual; and still rebellion, the message of TIME is AT HAND
and then,
WAM,
your temple and Holy city are destroyed; that wouldnt' be as a lightning bolt, a big wake up call, a shame brought upon you and your people;
a "seeing your house come crashing down".
How do you know that it OBVIOUSLY wasn't known to covenant Israel??
Quote from: crowbar on December 23, 2008, 10:57:39 PM
actually Molly, if one would look at the definition of that word "temple" in 2 Thessalonians, one would find that it's the exact same Greek word Paul used when he stated "What, know ye not that you are a "temple" of the Holy Ghost????
Same word . .same meaning. The temple really is you and the man of lawlessness is your soul . . .your carnal mind. It's is is your Eve that is constantly desiring after your Adam. Always wanting the control . .my mind is always wanting to "understand" everything before I "decide" whether or not it's acceptable. . . .the mind is always that part of us that wants everything done . .and not only just "done" but "done a certain way". The spirit is like the wind . . .there is no real logic or reasoning as to where it comes from or where it goes . .but the carnal mind likes everything in straight order.
When I give in to my carnal mind, I am letting "that" take the throne of my "temple"
What? Know ye not that you are the "temple"? Built with living stones with Christ as the cornerstone. He did as he said he would do . . .'tear this temple down (flesh) and in three days (resurrection) I (not man) will build it up . . .we are in the third day.
Actually, the "You" is plural in "you are a temple of God" is "you, plurality of believers, are a temple of God and when someone comes into your assembly with teaching which corrupts or with corrupting actions then God will be corrupting that person.
1Co 3:17 If anyone [singular] is corrupting the temple of God, God will be corrupting him [singular], for the temple of God is holy, which you [plural] are."
The man of lawlessness is not "your soul . . . your carnal mind." First of all the soul is not the carnal mind. Secondly, the 2 thessalonians passage harks back to this:
Dan 9:27 Then he will be master of a covenant with many for one seven: At half of the seven, he will cause to cease the sacrifice and the approach present; on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations. Till the conclusion of the era the decided conclusion will be poured forth on the desolation."
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Surely you don't believe that the soul can demonstrate that it is God?
Jesus said that a house divided cannot stand. Satan and God cannot dwell in the same house (body). We have the holy spirit. The man of lawlessness will be Satan personified.
Quote from: Zeek on December 24, 2008, 04:08:31 PM
Let's see, if God specially chose you to be a special nation, a light to the world; placed you in a special garden, saved you from slavery in Egypt, parted the Red Sea for you, and over and over and over again showed you his mercy and love; gave you the ark, the temple, the law, etc, etc; and disciplined you as a father to a child, etc. etc...
and then brought John the Baptist years later onto the scene, then Jesus himself full of signs and wonders, then the cross, and the resurrection, and then the incredible signs and work of the apostles; and despite all this; you chose to still stay attached to the physical temple and all it's ordinances, despite warnings and warnings, signs and signs; and the spreading of the gospel to the whole world, and the message of repent, turn from the physical to the spiritual; and still rebellion, the message of TIME is AT HAND
and then,
WAM,
your temple and Holy city are destroyed; that wouldnt' be as a lightning bolt, a big wake up call, a shame brought upon you and your people;
a "seeing your house come crashing down".
How do you know that it OBVIOUSLY wasn't known to covenant Israel??
This isn't about "a house come crasing down." The context of the lightning flashing from east to west is about Christ's return. It will be obvious to all.
Quote from: Tony N on December 24, 2008, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 24, 2008, 04:08:31 PM
Let's see, if God specially chose you to be a special nation, a light to the world; placed you in a special garden, saved you from slavery in Egypt, parted the Red Sea for you, and over and over and over again showed you his mercy and love; gave you the ark, the temple, the law, etc, etc; and disciplined you as a father to a child, etc. etc...
and then brought John the Baptist years later onto the scene, then Jesus himself full of signs and wonders, then the cross, and the resurrection, and then the incredible signs and work of the apostles; and despite all this; you chose to still stay attached to the physical temple and all it's ordinances, despite warnings and warnings, signs and signs; and the spreading of the gospel to the whole world, and the message of repent, turn from the physical to the spiritual; and still rebellion, the message of TIME is AT HAND
and then,
WAM,
your temple and Holy city are destroyed; that wouldnt' be as a lightning bolt, a big wake up call, a shame brought upon you and your people;
a "seeing your house come crashing down".
How do you know that it OBVIOUSLY wasn't known to covenant Israel??
This isn't about "a house come crasing down." The context of the lightning flashing from east to west is about Christ's return. It will be obvious to all.
It's all about the house come crashing down, "Natural to Spiritual"
Quote from: Tony N on December 24, 2008, 04:15:55 PM
Quote from: crowbar on December 23, 2008, 10:57:39 PM
actually Molly, if one would look at the definition of that word "temple" in 2 Thessalonians, one would find that it's the exact same Greek word Paul used when he stated "What, know ye not that you are a "temple" of the Holy Ghost????
Same word . .same meaning. The temple really is you and the man of lawlessness is your soul . . .your carnal mind. It's is is your Eve that is constantly desiring after your Adam. Always wanting the control . .my mind is always wanting to "understand" everything before I "decide" whether or not it's acceptable. . . .the mind is always that part of us that wants everything done . .and not only just "done" but "done a certain way". The spirit is like the wind . . .there is no real logic or reasoning as to where it comes from or where it goes . .but the carnal mind likes everything in straight order.
When I give in to my carnal mind, I am letting "that" take the throne of my "temple"
What? Know ye not that you are the "temple"? Built with living stones with Christ as the cornerstone. He did as he said he would do . . .'tear this temple down (flesh) and in three days (resurrection) I (not man) will build it up . . .we are in the third day.
Actually, the "You" is plural in "you are a temple of God" is "you, plurality of believers, are a temple of God and when someone comes into your assembly with teaching which corrupts or with corrupting actions then God will be corrupting that person.
1Co 3:17 If anyone [singular] is corrupting the temple of God, God will be corrupting him [singular], for the temple of God is holy, which you [plural] are."
The man of lawlessness is not "your soul . . . your carnal mind." First of all the soul is not the carnal mind. Secondly, the 2 thessalonians passage harks back to this:
Dan 9:27 Then he will be master of a covenant with many for one seven: At half of the seven, he will cause to cease the sacrifice and the approach present; on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations. Till the conclusion of the era the decided conclusion will be poured forth on the desolation."
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
Surely you don't believe that the soul can demonstrate that it is God?
Jesus said that a house divided cannot stand. Satan and God cannot dwell in the same house (body). We have the holy spirit. The man of lawlessness will be Satan personified.
"you, pleurality of believers, are a temple of God.."
In my Father's house are many mansions..The house is the temple, and each of us are mansions within the house--the house of God within the house of God--wheels within wheels...each a lively stone building the temple of God...
...the tabernacle of God is with men.. [Rev 21]
'with' = Greek: meta:
amidst [men]
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 24, 2008, 04:43:16 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 24, 2008, 03:56:18 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 24, 2008, 09:27:20 AM
Quote27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
What does that mean? He's going to be everywhere at once?
The sons? :mshock:
:bigGrin:
No. When it is dark out and you see lightning from the east and it goes to the west it is very apparent that you just saw a lightning bolt. You don't have to squint to see it or try to find its appearing. So also it will be like that when the Son of man comes. It will be very apparent to all.
Obviously Jesus didn't come in 70 A.D. because it was apparent to no one.
East and west in reards to the stones of the temple (sons of God) sorta like a like shining in a dark place? Inwardly?
I mean they COULD discern the face of the sky but not His coming unto them right?
yup sorta see this along the lines of the times and the seasons...HIS appointed Time :dontknow:
Quote from: Zeek on December 24, 2008, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 24, 2008, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 24, 2008, 04:08:31 PM
Let's see, if God specially chose you to be a special nation, a light to the world; placed you in a special garden, saved you from slavery in Egypt, parted the Red Sea for you, and over and over and over again showed you his mercy and love; gave you the ark, the temple, the law, etc, etc; and disciplined you as a father to a child, etc. etc...
and then brought John the Baptist years later onto the scene, then Jesus himself full of signs and wonders, then the cross, and the resurrection, and then the incredible signs and work of the apostles; and despite all this; you chose to still stay attached to the physical temple and all it's ordinances, despite warnings and warnings, signs and signs; and the spreading of the gospel to the whole world, and the message of repent, turn from the physical to the spiritual; and still rebellion, the message of TIME is AT HAND
and then,
WAM,
your temple and Holy city are destroyed; that wouldnt' be as a lightning bolt, a big wake up call, a shame brought upon you and your people;
a "seeing your house come crashing down".
How do you know that it OBVIOUSLY wasn't known to covenant Israel??
This isn't about "a house come crasing down." The context of the lightning flashing from east to west is about Christ's return. It will be obvious to all.
It's all about the house come crashing down, "Natural to Spiritual"
Actually you are going from natural to soulish. If you went from natural to spiritual you'd agree with Christ.
Jesus said nothing about lightning flashing from the east to the west is representative of "the house come crashing down." Can't you read? Jesus said it is about His return.
Gheesh.
He ha Tony..Tis Nothing to do with READING..tis to do WITH undestanding the LIGHT of Knowledge Bro... :bgdance:
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 02:39:20 AM
He ha Tony..Tis Nothing to do with READING..tis to do WITH undestanding the LIGHT of Knowledge Bro... :bgdance:
It actually has to do with believing what Jesus said.
I find more and more that people want to believe their own little world-view their minds make up rather than what Jesus said.
If Jesus said that His return will be as apparent as the lightening shining from the east to the west, then that is exactly what he meant. If someone comes along and says the lightening flashing from east to west represents grasshoppers crawling out of your nose, well, then, I have a problem with that. But most here would probably be impressed by such a grand NEW revelation that God did not give them.
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 02:39:20 AM
He ha Tony..Tis Nothing to do with READING..tis to do WITH undestanding the LIGHT of Knowledge Bro... :bgdance:
It actually has to do with believing what Jesus said.
I find more and more that people want to believe their own little world-view their minds make up rather than what Jesus said.
If Jesus said that His return will be as apparent as the lightening shining from the east to the west, then that is exactly what he meant. If someone comes along and says the lightening flashing from east to west represents grasshoppers crawling out of your nose, well, then, I have a problem with that. But most here would probably be impressed by such a grand NEW revelation that God did not give them.
Hello......What Jesus spoke to the public was
figurative, scripture tells us so, (its that what we believe).
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all [these] things are done in parables:
So he BEGAN to teach the great Multidude AS HE Entered the SHIP and SAT in the SEA, and the WHOLE multidue was BY the SEA on the LAND.
Mar 4:1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.
Mar 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine
So Im afraid thats the WORLD I and some others live in Tony... :cloud9: in the Clouds bro, tis a Covering , sorta Brings rain with it too ... :cloud9: Its a Language for all , for all that LIVES is AROUND US,..but one first has to SEE the natural to understand the Spiritual, then we compare the spiritual with the Spiritual..iT seems Paul realised this too Bro
Be blessed
G
Quote from: peacemakerThe only one in the temple of God at present,other than his spirit, is you!
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
If Jesus said that His return will be as apparent as the lightening shining from the east to the west, then that is exactly what he meant. If someone comes along and says the lightening flashing from east to west represents grasshoppers crawling out of your nose, well, then, I have a problem with that. But most here would probably be impressed by such a grand NEW revelation that God did not give them.
I agree with you, AS apparent as lightning shining from east to west.
If you were God's covenant people, who he dealt with as a father for many years, etc etc. (see previous post) then Jesus came, died, rose again, and then the apostles came on the scene full of signs and wonders; and you still hung onto your "old MINDSET", and then YOUR HOUSE CAME CRASHING DOWN (which is MUCH more than just a literal building falling to the ground, but a SHAME that would last to the end of the ages), YOU would be VERY aware
(AS LIGHTNING SHINING FROM THE EAST TO THE WEST).
At least you are seeing the lightning as a metaphor. Your problem imo is you
assume that no one knew or was effected by this. I have no problem with that, it is your belief; and you have done a nice job of explaining it;
until
you for some reason decided to start throwing in "cut down's" and "lies". I would like an apology.
Your attempts to defend your belief to me, imo are "below the belt", first implying "I can't read" and attempting to make me feel "ridiculed", and now implying that I'm saying "grasshoppers coming out of someone's nose", which I never implied or even left the context of old covenant Israel and the transition to NEW.
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 03:42:03 PM
Its a Language for all , for all that LIVES is AROUND US,..but one first has to SEE the natural to understand the Spiritual, then we compare the spiritual with the Spiritual..iT seems Paul realised this too Bro
Be blessed
G
Hi T/G
I agree, for me;
learning of the literal that happened then during the first century, which I believe was
also spiritual; as it represented a covenental change from old to new. So I think literal events can have huge spiritual implication.
Now with that peace, knowing we are under the NEW whether we believe it or not; has opened up for me; how the Father is revealing HIMSELF to me, "is, was and will be" through figurative/symbolic language. Really summed up as LOVE
It has been the path for me, that opened up without the desire for it to.
thanks my friend for your grace as you've helped open my eyes to grace.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 02:39:20 AM
He ha Tony..Tis Nothing to do with READING..tis to do WITH undestanding the LIGHT of Knowledge Bro... :bgdance:
It actually has to do with believing what Jesus said.
I find more and more that people want to believe their own little world-view their minds make up rather than what Jesus said.
If Jesus said that His return will be as apparent as the lightening shining from the east to the west, then that is exactly what he meant. If someone comes along and says the lightening flashing from east to west represents grasshoppers crawling out of your nose, well, then, I have a problem with that. But most here would probably be impressed by such a grand NEW revelation that God did not give them.
Hello......What Jesus spoke to the public was figurative, scripture tells us so, (its that what we believe).
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Umm, Taffy, Jesus was not speaking in parables to His disciples in Matthew 24 or 25. And He was not speaking to the "public" in Matthew 24 or 25.
Here's proof:
Mat 24:1-3 And, coming out, Jesus went from the sanctuary. And
His disciples approached to exhibit to Him the buildings of the sanctuary." (2) Yet He, answering,
said to them, "Are you not observing all these? Verily, I am saying
to you, Under no circumstances may a stone here be left on a stone, which shall not be demolished." (3) Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives,
the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "
Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?
It is in that context that Jesus told them that His appearing would be like lightning appearing from the east to the west. It would be so apparent you can't miss it.
Next.
Quote from: Zeek on December 25, 2008, 05:04:11 PM
At least you are seeing the lightning as a metaphor. Your problem imo is you assume that no one knew or was effected by this. I have no problem with that, it is your belief; and you have done a nice job of explaining it;
until
you for some reason decided to start throwing in "cut down's" and "lies". I would like an apology.
No apology from me will be forthcoming. You are the one that needs to apologize for saying misleading statements about what Jesus said.
Jesus himself said this:
Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west,
thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
You take Jesus' words and make them say something altogether different from what He said.
Please say you are sorry.
Tony
blessings to all.
time to go spend christmas with my family.
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 05:50:09 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 02:39:20 AM
He ha Tony..Tis Nothing to do with READING..tis to do WITH undestanding the LIGHT of Knowledge Bro... :bgdance:
It actually has to do with believing what Jesus said.
I find more and more that people want to believe their own little world-view their minds make up rather than what Jesus said.
If Jesus said that His return will be as apparent as the lightening shining from the east to the west, then that is exactly what he meant. If someone comes along and says the lightening flashing from east to west represents grasshoppers crawling out of your nose, well, then, I have a problem with that. But most here would probably be impressed by such a grand NEW revelation that God did not give them.
Hello......What Jesus spoke to the public was figurative, scripture tells us so, (its that what we believe).
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Umm, Taffy, Jesus was not speaking in parables to His disciples in Matthew 24 or 25. And He was not speaking to the "public" in Matthew 24 or 25.
Here's proof:
Mat 24:1-3 And, coming out, Jesus went from the sanctuary. And His disciples approached to exhibit to Him the buildings of the sanctuary." (2) Yet He, answering, said to them, "Are you not observing all these? Verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances may a stone here be left on a stone, which shall not be demolished." (3) Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?
It is in that context that Jesus told them that His appearing would be like lightning appearing from the east to the west. It would be so apparent you can't miss it.
Next.
.
Tony Bro :icon_flower:
When spoke at the passover."EAT this BREAD and Drink THIS wine", who was He speaking to THEN..the MULTITUDE?....
Figurative Dont ya Think? :icon_flower:
Using the Natural to Explain the Spiritual, but figurative...Tis Like Revelation....Or maybe you CANT Read...Tis signified...
That Is ,WORDED in symbols....
Im just waiting on this Beast Rising from the SEA with several heads and Crowns....If ya See Him Be sure to take a Picture or Two and Post it on Tent, just in case Me misses it :icon_flower:
Seeing is Believing egh :icon_flower:
Good questions, Fire, and I look your approach here, throwing out some food for thought...I'm afraid I don't "get it" on that right now though, someone else will have to answer...
I do have some thoughts though for the 'fam' ..."As I understand it, IMO, what's been revealed to me so far is, as I see it, I believe, I think, I hope, what do you think, I may be wrong, but..."
God's blessing, James.
P.S. Jesus is alive every day. "Merry Living in Him", everyone!
I meant 'like' your approach... :Oops:....anyway, yep! I guess we can't help but wonder about things...
Quote from: Zeek on December 25, 2008, 06:07:47 PM
blessings to all.
time to go spend christmas with my family.
Enjoy Bro :icon_flower:
Quote from: TonyMat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
"Thus shall be the presence of the Son of Adam."
He is talking about the sons of God--they will appear everywhere at once.
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.--Mat 24
10The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see
the salvation of our God.
--Isa 52
Y'shuah 'ĕlôhîym44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
--Daniel 2
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
--Acts 9
Paul says he is the first to receive salvation--that he will be an example to all who will receive salvation.
There are other men on that road with Paul, but they have a different experience. They hear a voice, but we are not told what it said to them. They see no man. They see no light. But, Paul sees a blinding light and the Lord Jesus. He says, Who are you? Paul is left blinded by the light and the others have to carry him home.
Why don't the others see it? Paul's experience is different than theirs. I think it is because this blinding light is coming from the inside. He is being shown the Christ within.
Quote from: Molly on December 25, 2008, 10:43:56 PM
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
--Acts 9
Paul says he is the first to receive salvation--that he will be an example to all who will receive salvation.
There are other men on that road with Paul, but they have a different experience. They hear a voice, but we are not told what it said to them. They see no man. They see no light. But, Paul sees a blinding light and the Lord Jesus. He says, Who are you? Paul is left blinded by the light and the others have to carry him home.
Why don't the others see it? Paul's experience is different than theirs. I think it is because this blinding light is coming from the inside. He is being shown the Christ within.
ya on a roll Molly :icon_flower:
Hsa 6:2 After
two days will he revive us: in the
third day he will raise us up, and
we shall live in his sight.
10The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
--Isa 52
Y'shuah 'ĕlôhîym--the salvation of our God
That's His Christmas present to me--a name.
....all the ends of the earth shall see Y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym.
That's our name. Why has no one said anything? Isn't it marvelous?
"Yah's salvation gods"
That's us!
Christ is a troop, a multitude, a host--the vessels which carry him to the world.
God has left the planet,--ha!-- his work is finished, but ours is just begun.
21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion, to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be Jehovah's.
--Obadiah 1
6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
--2Cor 4
Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
19And [so that you can know and understand] what is the immeasurable and unlimited and surpassing greatness of His power in and for us who believe, as demonstrated in the working of His mighty strength,
20Which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His [own] right hand in the heavenly [places],
21Far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named [above every title that can be conferred], not only in this age and in this world, but also in the age and the world which are to come.
--Eph 1
Colossians 3:1
IF THEN you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, thus sharing His resurrection from the dead], aim at and seek the [rich, eternal treasures] that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
1 John
5 And who is the one who conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Rom 8
37Yet amid all these things we are more than conquerors and gain a surpassing victory through Him Who loved us.
Rev 3
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
--Acts 15
12And it was told King David, The Lord has blessed the house of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom into the City of David with rejoicing;
13And when those who bore the ark of the Lord had gone six paces, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling.
14And David danced before the Lord with all his might, clad in a linen ephod [a priest's upper garment].
15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet.
--2 Samuel 6
17They brought in the ark of the Lord and set it in its place inside the tent which David had pitched for it, and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the Lord.
--2 Sam 6
11 In that day
I will restore the fallen booth of David:
I will repair its gaps,
restore its ruin,
and rebuild it as in the days of old,
12 so that they may possess
the remnant of Edom
and all the nations
that are called by My name —
[this is] the LORD's declaration—
He will do this.
--Amos 9
5 For He will conceal me in His shelter
in the day of adversity;
He will hide me under the cover of His tent;
He will set me high on a rock.
6 Then my head will be high
above my enemies around me;
I will offer sacrifices in His tent with shouts of joy.
I will sing and make music to the LORD.
7 LORD, hear my voice when I call;
be gracious to me and answer me.
8 In Your behalf my heart says, "Seek My face."
LORD, I will seek Your face
--Psa 27
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 06:10:39 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 05:50:09 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 02:39:20 AM
He ha Tony..Tis Nothing to do with READING..tis to do WITH undestanding the LIGHT of Knowledge Bro... :bgdance:
It actually has to do with believing what Jesus said.
I find more and more that people want to believe their own little world-view their minds make up rather than what Jesus said.
If Jesus said that His return will be as apparent as the lightening shining from the east to the west, then that is exactly what he meant. If someone comes along and says the lightening flashing from east to west represents grasshoppers crawling out of your nose, well, then, I have a problem with that. But most here would probably be impressed by such a grand NEW revelation that God did not give them.
Hello......What Jesus spoke to the public was figurative, scripture tells us so, (its that what we believe).
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Umm, Taffy, Jesus was not speaking in parables to His disciples in Matthew 24 or 25. And He was not speaking to the "public" in Matthew 24 or 25.
Here's proof:
Mat 24:1-3 And, coming out, Jesus went from the sanctuary. And His disciples approached to exhibit to Him the buildings of the sanctuary." (2) Yet He, answering, said to them, "Are you not observing all these? Verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances may a stone here be left on a stone, which shall not be demolished." (3) Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?
It is in that context that Jesus told them that His appearing would be like lightning appearing from the east to the west. It would be so apparent you can't miss it.
Next.
.
Tony Bro :icon_flower:
When spoke at the passover."EAT this BREAD and Drink THIS wine", who was He speaking to THEN..the MULTITUDE?....
Figurative Dont ya Think? :icon_flower:
Using the Natural to Explain the Spiritual, but figurative...Tis Like Revelation....Or maybe you CANT Read...Tis signified...
That Is ,WORDED in symbols....
Im just waiting on this Beast Rising from the SEA with several heads and Crowns....If ya See Him Be sure to take a Picture or Two and Post it on Tent, just in case Me misses it :icon_flower:
Seeing is Believing egh :icon_flower:
Taffy, again, Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables so they would not see, hear or have their hearts open so that Isaiah's prophecy would come to pass.
Now then, Jesus saying "this is my body, this is my blood" is not a parable. It is a figure of speech and was told to His disciples, not the multitudes.
He is not using the natural to explain the spiritual but used a figure of speech to explain His death.
Jesus saying His return would be as apparent as lightning shining from the east to the west. That is not a parable but a FACT.
Tony--
Don't you know that Solomon's temple is in the shape of a man--with the holy of holies being the head, the cherabim the eyes, the ark the nose(breath) and mouth(speech), the holy place the trunk of the body, the altar of incense the heart, the priests chambers on the right and left the two arms, the 5 lavars on each side the fingers of each hand, the pillars of Jachim and Boaz the legs, the altar of sacrifice the feet?
Tony, how is it that Jacob could fall asleep on a rock pillow and climb a staircase to God--entering into the holy of holies directly and meeting God face to face?
O such myteries! It's all spiritual!
How is it that King David of the tribe of Judah, the tribe of kings, can put on the ephod of the high priest and dance before the open tent housing the ark atop mount Zion in the city of David--dance and sing before the ark for all to see?
Adam, too, is king and priest, as is our Lord Jesus.
We, also, a holy people, a set apart people, a royal priesthood, representing Christ, ambassadors of God, returning from heaven and beseeching others: be ye reconciled to God.
Quote from: Tony N on December 26, 2008, 08:27:20 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 06:10:39 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 05:50:09 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 02:39:20 AM
He ha Tony..Tis Nothing to do with READING..tis to do WITH undestanding the LIGHT of Knowledge Bro... :bgdance:
It actually has to do with believing what Jesus said.
I find more and more that people want to believe their own little world-view their minds make up rather than what Jesus said.
If Jesus said that His return will be as apparent as the lightening shining from the east to the west, then that is exactly what he meant. If someone comes along and says the lightening flashing from east to west represents grasshoppers crawling out of your nose, well, then, I have a problem with that. But most here would probably be impressed by such a grand NEW revelation that God did not give them.
Hello......What Jesus spoke to the public was figurative, scripture tells us so, (its that what we believe).
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Umm, Taffy, Jesus was not speaking in parables to His disciples in Matthew 24 or 25. And He was not speaking to the "public" in Matthew 24 or 25.
Here's proof:
Mat 24:1-3 And, coming out, Jesus went from the sanctuary. And His disciples approached to exhibit to Him the buildings of the sanctuary." (2) Yet He, answering, said to them, "Are you not observing all these? Verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances may a stone here be left on a stone, which shall not be demolished." (3) Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?
It is in that context that Jesus told them that His appearing would be like lightning appearing from the east to the west. It would be so apparent you can't miss it.
Next.
.
Tony Bro :icon_flower:
When spoke at the passover."EAT this BREAD and Drink THIS wine", who was He speaking to THEN..the MULTITUDE?....
Figurative Dont ya Think? :icon_flower:
Using the Natural to Explain the Spiritual, but figurative...Tis Like Revelation....Or maybe you CANT Read...Tis signified...
That Is ,WORDED in symbols....
Im just waiting on this Beast Rising from the SEA with several heads and Crowns....If ya See Him Be sure to take a Picture or Two and Post it on Tent, just in case Me misses it :icon_flower:
Seeing is Believing egh :icon_flower:
Taffy, again, Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables so they would not see, hear or have their hearts open so that Isaiah's prophecy would come to pass.
Now then, Jesus saying "this is my body, this is my blood" is not a parable. It is a figure of speech and was told to His disciples, not the multitudes.
He is not using the natural to explain the spiritual but used a figure of speech to explain His death.
Jesus saying His return would be as apparent as lightning shining from the east to the west. That is not a parable but a FACT.
Tony , thought Id mentioned it was figurative , although I may not have explained it well enough , never the less,the Point being Terms in the Natural are used to unveil spiritual Truths ...,
while you are still determined to see these terms Literally ....
Rom 1:20 For the
invisible things of him from the
creation of the world are clearly seen, being
understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: or this maybe? """""""""""""" signifying""""""""""""""
Voice, Heaven Earth :icon_flower:
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Hbr 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:
Hbr 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Hbr 12:27 And this [word], Yet once more,
signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
First the natural THEN the Spiritual
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as
lively stones, are built up a
spiritual house, an
holy priesthood, to
offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Tony .youll see what you see , :icon_flower:
Be blessed
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 26, 2008, 10:01:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 20, 2008, 02:43:24 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 20, 2008, 12:28:04 AM
Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God? Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured? just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn :thumbsup:.
The church is called out people
Not a building with a steeple
Could a building with a steeple be like Him?
Not a hand and not a hammer
Not a whisper, not a stammer
Builds the Temple of His people once again.
Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.' "
Im reading this thread from the beginning and this verse right here is proceeded by a false witness account of what Jesus said, not a true witness, look here starting with Mark 14:57
Mark 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying, We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man
Just thought I'd bring that forward here
Very tough to just read all the way through to catch up without wanting to respond to each post. But to this raising up of the temple . . .there was a question asked as to whether we were in that third day from Jesus saying those words . . and my answer to that would be a resounding YES . . . a day is as a thousand years . . . the "like as" principle is really one of the great keys to seeing things spiritually rather than morally (2nd dimension) or literally (1st dimension). There have been countless references to the "last days" people have surmized over the years. Peter said 2,000 years ago that the upper room experince was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy which stated "last days" . . .and yet the rapture holders still perceive we are in the last days . . .which has been going on for 2,000 years?
And now, to that I can say, yes, but they aren't seeing it the same way as I (imagine that!)
There is much controversy over timelines. . . but when following strictly with the geneologies documented, you can measure it was 4 thousand years from Adam to Jesus . . .4 days . . .on the 4th day of creation, the sun, moon and stars where created . .things that project and reflect light upon the earth. And on that 4th day, Jesus proclaimed that 3 days from there, "he" would build this church that was torn down by the blindness and rebellion of men. And that was stated 2,000 years ago . . .which is two complete days. Which then means that we are NOW entering into the THIRD DAY of the fulfillment of that temple being built.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 25, 2008, 11:01:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 25, 2008, 10:43:56 PM
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
--Acts 9
Paul says he is the first to receive salvation--that he will be an example to all who will receive salvation.
There are other men on that road with Paul, but they have a different experience. They hear a voice, but we are not told what it said to them. They see no man. They see no light. But, Paul sees a blinding light and the Lord Jesus. He says, Who are you? Paul is left blinded by the light and the others have to carry him home.
Why don't the others see it? Paul's experience is different than theirs. I think it is because this blinding light is coming from the inside. He is being shown the Christ within.
Which would make sense why Paul said that God revealed His Son in me so THAT I might preach Him
Ha! I am not what I perceive or feel I am . . .I am what he's proclaimed me to be . . a priest and a king! (and that's just for starters.)
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 24, 2008, 03:09:08 PM
Me too, I cant yet understand why a third physical building would be needed, we have Jerasalem below and we have the Jerusalem above, the one below is spiritually called Sodom Egypt where our Lord was crucified. We have a rebuilding of of a temple yet we are told that WE are the temple where the Spirit of God actually is and that we are to build each other up, that WE are the living stones of this great temple where God and Christ are the true temple of it offering spiritual sacrifices (so sacrifices are there but spiritually understood according to the spiritual priesthood) given we are a holy nation not a geographical location according to that which is above. I mean even our evening prayer with outstreched hands are as the insence (prayers of the saints in the house of prayer) is as a sacrifice as even the fruit of our lips is counted as one etc etc etc.
You can even similitude of the temple "adorned" (which the disciples beheld) and actually admired and the reproof of letting ourselves not seek the outer adornment but of the inner adornment etc.
Then the "measure" of the temple, is not Christ our full measure unto which we are to grow up into? Did He not speak of the cubit of our stature and is not cubits also part of the picture? Is not the perfect man (even the measure of a man, that of an angel) even Christ (as Paul indicates them recieving him as) some sort of spiritual truth in regards to 144 when you see Job (also named the perfect man) who lived 140 years and 4 generations? I mean theres something hidden in all this as I see it, I dont have it figured out but theres no doubt something isnt in all these things as they are worded like this everywhere. Look at the first and last stone that too is Christ who also represents the same stone when it speaks of the building of the wall, its the same stone as seen on the throne, its the same stone laid in Zion, its the same stone which reflects light in her, symbolism is beautiful and perfect and melt together as one. So I cant say theres no temple because WE are the temple, yet in the same breath it says there is no temple and that God and the Lamb are the temple and when it comes to measuring the temple what then is measured? And in regards to measures (as mentioned throughout) we receive a measure of faith, Gods love is expressed in heights, depths, lengths and widths, and the full measure of Christ is mentioned etc etc. Its really endless. But something tells me I just cant grasp what might be spoken of in spiritual truths and the confusion that might exist is with the mixture of fleshly understanding verses spiritual because I still see in part here.
I can't find the post I read that you also wrote when dealing with chamber rooms . .but for me, the first thing that comes to mind is intimacy. God doesn't want us to know "about" him, he wants us to know things intimately "in" him. It's not about what my head has figured out by applying Scripture literally . .that's why I do believe it's worth the time to push others past their comfort zones of thinking . .there's so much more "in" God than there is "about" God.
And to this measuring the outer temple . . . Molly has a great perspective in seeing the tabernacle, both Moses and Solomon's, is orchestrated AFTER THE IMAGE of Christ. The outercourt is his body . . .it is our natural efforts. It is the infancy stages of a believer (salvation and water baptism). And when John is told "not" to measure the outer court . .for me, that means we're not to judge each other by their works . . their outer efforts . . .their actions, lifesyles . . .
Nuts, wife's calling . .I gotta go pick up a truck in the shop.
Blessings to you . . I'll try to drop in later again.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 02:13:59 AM
Quote from: Nathan on December 27, 2008, 01:33:49 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 26, 2008, 10:01:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 20, 2008, 02:43:24 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 20, 2008, 12:28:04 AM
Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God? Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured? just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn :thumbsup:.
The church is called out people
Not a building with a steeple
Could a building with a steeple be like Him?
Not a hand and not a hammer
Not a whisper, not a stammer
Builds the Temple of His people once again.
Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.' "
Im reading this thread from the beginning and this verse right here is proceeded by a false witness account of what Jesus said, not a true witness, look here starting with Mark 14:57
Mark 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying, We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man
Just thought I'd bring that forward here
Very tough to just read all the way through to catch up without wanting to respond to each post. But to this raising up of the temple . . .there was a question asked as to whether we were in that third day from Jesus saying those words . . and my answer to that would be a resounding YES . . . a day is as a thousand years . . . the "like as" principle is really one of the great keys to seeing things spiritually rather than morally (2nd dimension) or literally (1st dimension). There have been countless references to the "last days" people have surmized over the years. Peter said 2,000 years ago that the upper room experince was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy which stated "last days" . . .and yet the rapture holders still perceive we are in the last days . . .which has been going on for 2,000 years?
And now, to that I can say, yes, but they aren't seeing it the same way as I (imagine that!)
There is much controversy over timelines. . . but when following strictly with the geneologies documented, you can measure it was 4 thousand years from Adam to Jesus . . .4 days . . .on the 4th day of creation, the sun, moon and stars where created . .things that project and reflect light upon the earth. And on that 4th day, Jesus proclaimed that 3 days from there, "he" would build this church that was torn down by the blindness and rebellion of men. And that was stated 2,000 years ago . . .which is two complete days. Which then means that we are NOW entering into the THIRD DAY of the fulfillment of that temple being built.
In regards to the one who was bearing a false witness against him seems to repeat what he thought he heard, but interestingly it does show what was said (in ones own words) that was considered a false witness against Christ's words. Even if it was simply repeating what they thought they understood him saying, them stating that in two ways is listed as a false witness. Yikes huh?
His words are recorded, the destroying of the temple he was speaking of was His own body (which WE are now) and given He was raised up arent we raised up with Him?
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
They then refer to the temple it took them 46 years to build (you know this ofcourse)
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of HIS BODY
Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise US up, and we shall live in his sight.
Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
20 Therefore the Jews said, "This sanctuary took 46 years to build, and will You raise it up in three days?" --John 2
The Pharisees misunderstood him, too. That's because he was standing in front of the temple when he said it. So, they decided he was a terrorist who was going to destroy the temple, (and somehow supernaturally build it again in three days).
"His words are recorded, the destroying of the temple he was speaking of was His own body (which WE are now) and given He was raised up arent we raised up with Him?"
Yes, but as Reformer keeps telling us ("Jesus wants his body back"), it's not complete, yet.
I love that teaching, Nathan, that we are in the third day of the completion of God's temple.
wow And he was raised up in the morning, at the beginning of the third day. :mshock:
We could be close!
1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so they could go and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they went to the tomb at sunrise. 3 They were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone from the entrance to the tomb for us?" 4 Looking up, they observed that the stone—which was very large—had been rolled away. 5 When they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; they were amazed and alarmed.
6 "Don't be alarmed," he told them. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has been resurrected! He is not here! See the place where they put Him. 7 But go, tell His disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you to Galilee; you will see Him there just as He told you.'
--Mark 16
[ahead of you into] "Galilee"
G1056
Γαλιλαία
Galilaia
gal-il-ah-yah
Of hebrew origin [H1551]; Galilaea (that is, the heathen circle), a region of Palestine: - Galilee.
H1551
גּלילה גּליל
gâlîyl gâlîylâh
gaw-leel', gaw-lee-law'
The same as H1550; a circle (with the article); Galil (as a special circuit) in the North of Palestine: - Galilee.
H1550
גּליל
gâlîyl
gaw-leel'
From H1556; a valve of a folding door (as turning); also a ring (as round): - folding, ring.
Quote from: FireI think I missed what reformer might have said, I didnt catch it, I'll go back and read it
So were not raised up with Him in some other sense?
Wheres the study on the third day Im missing out on?
It's just something that Reformer puts at the end of all his posts, lol.
"Jesus wants his body back." I think I have that right, I've read it enough.
Nathan on the third day is a few posts back. He said we are in the third day of Christ raising his temple (year 3000).
Do you think he's raising up the Melchizadek priests first? :mshock:
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Hi I can now post in here wow ! I was locked out for the longest time
:thumbsup: Hi all ............
Christ being the Head , seems Reformer has a signature that says ''Jesus wants His body Back '' :winkgrin:
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Jhn 21:14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
do we also get to be raised up the 3rd day ?
I know Laurus was on the 4th day ? and Jesus raised him up out of sleep/death
they, the disciples thought he was sleeping
Jhn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
uho ! Molly already answered , sorry i am soooo slow again , its looking up scriptures that slows me down :msealed:
1 The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky proclaims the work of His hands.
2 Day after day they pour out speech;
night after night they communicate knowledge.
3 There is no speech; there are no words;
their voice is not heard.
4 Their message has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.
In the heavens He has pitched a tent for the sun.
5 It is like a groom coming from the bridal chamber;
it rejoices like an athlete running a course.
6 It rises from one end of the heavens
and circles to their other end;
nothing is hidden from its heat.
7 The instruction of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the LORD is trustworthy,
making the inexperienced wise.
8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
making the heart glad;
the commandment of the LORD is radiant,
making the eyes light up.
9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever;
the ordinances of the LORD are reliable
and altogether righteous.
10 They are more desirable than gold—
than an abundance of pure gold;
and sweeter than honey—
than honey dripping from the comb.
11 In addition, Your servant is warned by them;
there is great reward in keeping them.
12 Who perceives his unintentional sins?
Cleanse me from my hidden faults.
13 Moreover, keep Your servant from willful sins;
do not let them rule over me.
Then I will be innocent,
and cleansed from blatant rebellion.
14 May the words of my mouth
and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable to You,
LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.
--Psa 19
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 03:17:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 27, 2008, 02:56:13 AM
Quote from: FireI think I missed what reformer might have said, I didnt catch it, I'll go back and read it
So were not raised up with Him in some other sense?
Wheres the study on the third day Im missing out on?
It's just something that Reformer puts at the end of all his posts, lol.
"Jesus wants his body back." I think I have that right, I've read it enough.
Nathan on the third day is a few posts back. He said we are in the third day of Christ raising his temple (year 3000).
Do you think he's raising up the Melchizadek priests first? :mshock:
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
We know God does nothing before he checks with other folks words first :grin: :grin: I mean was it a scripture verse? :grin: Thats what I was asking too, to look at reformers post (or signature) for a verse :grin: Unless its just because he says so? :grin:
Christ was raised the third day and so you count one thousand years as one day since Christ? Is that how you guys are figuring it? I'm new here I dont get how you guys arrive at stuff yet, HELP ME HERE :grin:
haha
I believe everything Reformer says, assuming I can understand it. :laughing7:
Not exactly a scripture verse--but I assume referring to this verse among others:
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.We are waiting for the fulness of the Gentiles, and then the blindness of Israel will be gone.
Yes, that's what Nathan said, we are beginning the third day since Christ.
Don't you think something strange is going on out there in the world? I sure do.
I dont want to get off topic , but :laughing7:
when Reformer says'' Jesus want His body Back '', I think he means it is scattered abroad like seeds in the world maybe ??and we are that Body being Joined back to Him ??
1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
:dontknow: I think I should let him speak for himself :mshock:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 03:23:31 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 27, 2008, 02:59:28 AM
Hi I can now post in here wow ! I was locked out for the longest time
:thumbsup: Hi all ............
Christ being the Head , seems Reformer has a signature that says "Jesus wants His body Back " :winkgrin:
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Jhn 21:14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
do we also get to be raised up the 3rd day ?
I know Laurus was on the 4th day ? and Jesus raised him up out of sleep/death
they, the disciples thought he was sleeping
Jhn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Hey Rosie, glad you could finally get on :bigGrin: yes I see the third "time" he showed himself to his disciples, are you associating that third time with a third day in anyway?
Good point concerning raising Lazarus in four days, who knows? :grin:
glad to be able to post in this place again , some how it now lets me in , I am not complaining lol ....
I always check Genesis and see what was going on the 3rd Day and 4 th day to see if there is anything in that :bigGrin: pertaining to Christ in the begining .......
on ther 3rd Day Christ rose .......... seems the first book of Genesis , is a little book all my itself ? complete and than there is Chapter 2
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind,
whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And
to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the
fourth day.
when the light of Christ come into Lazurus ?
it may be a stretch tosome folks , but for me I can see that lol .......
"It can be concluded that there exists no time interval during which a human being is free from a direct lightening strike."
When you hear the sound of thunder, ka-boom, you are probably within range. And the adversary within will fall, just like Saul, denoting a change of heart.
Hypothetically speaking, I would say that if a lightning strike could stop your heart, then, a second coming would act like a defibrillator!
peacemaker
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 03:56:04 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 27, 2008, 03:30:49 AM
I dont want to get off topic , but :laughing7:
when Reformer says" Jesus want His body Back ", I think he means it is scattered abroad like seeds in the world maybe ??and we are that Body being Joined back to Him ??
1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
:dontknow: I think I should let him speak for himself :mshock:
:grin: I still stumble over other peoples words, I always have I think I always will, but I think thats why revelation jumps out at me when His words are used because there is nothing better then our Lords words. They do help me personally
Me too sis , but when the Spirit quickens the Word , than I really get a blessing , its the Best!!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on December 27, 2008, 02:56:13 AM
Quote from: FireI think I missed what reformer might have said, I didnt catch it, I'll go back and read it
So were not raised up with Him in some other sense?
Wheres the study on the third day Im missing out on?
It's just something that Reformer puts at the end of all his posts, lol.
"Jesus wants his body back." I think I have that right, I've read it enough.
Nathan on the third day is a few posts back. He said we are in the third day of Christ raising his temple (year 3000).
Do you think he's raising up the Melchizadek priests first? :mshock:
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Yeah, the reigning with Christ a thousand years . .this entire spiritual concept really does fit together like a spiritual puzzle . .. but often times, we get into discussions on one point that we don't quite get to see the entire picture. But the thousand year reign for me IS A PICTURE of the holy of holies . . . it's not about the thousand years, it's about finding "rest". The thousand year part is simply the sign, signifying where the rest is established . . ."in Christ" which is the Holy of holies . . .it's where the presence of God resides upon the MERCY SEAT . . . it's a SEAT . . .it's where Christ is SEATED in God's throne room.
The Melchezedek order is the order of the thousand year reign . .it's still revealing Christ. It's not how long people will be with him in a specific state of mind before that one ends and we go to another . . .the thousand year reign is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The coming of the third day is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The destruction of the carnality of man is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The woes that were proclaimed again, to the carnal flesh of man is a revelation of Jesus Christ. When you put the pieces all together, you do not have the destruction of God's creation in the flesh . . .you have a revelation of Jesus Christ in the Spirit.
Quote from: peacemaker on December 27, 2008, 03:41:57 AM
"It can be concluded that there exists no time interval during which a human being is free from a direct lightening strike."
When you hear the sound of thunder, ka-boom, you are probably within range. And the adversary within will fall, just like Saul, denoting a change of heart.
Hypothetically speaking, I would say that if a lightning strike could stop your heart, then, a second coming would act like a defibrillator!
peacemaker
The lightning, for me, is a result of climatic change. When there is a clash of opposing air pressures, it creates friction . . .and when looking at it from global point of view, the friction manifests by way of lightning . .and the speed of the light breaks the natural sound barrier . . . creating the thunder. I see the reason it's seen so much in revelation is because for one, Jesus brings change in every person who looks upon him as the Messiah. And because he is spirit and up to the birth of this new life in him, I have been led by the flesh . .so when spirit meets flesh, there is a clashing of oposing climates within me . .creating the storms that bring life to everything dead. It rains on the just and the unjust. Just because I've experience lightning and thunder once in me, doesn't mean it won't happen again and again.
Another piece to the lightning . . it doesn't come down from above . . .it actually is the opposite. The things protruding most from the face of the earth, are most prone to trigger the charged clouds of change . . .it all depends on how hungry you are. If you choose to pursue Christ with unabandon . . .your hunger is so great that you don't care what kind of flesh you have to stomp on to reach out to the over-hanging clouds of rain, you are most apt to feel the fire of his electricity illuminate your carnal nature to the point of destruction.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 03:56:04 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 27, 2008, 03:30:49 AM
I dont want to get off topic , but :laughing7:
when Reformer says" Jesus want His body Back ", I think he means it is scattered abroad like seeds in the world maybe ??and we are that Body being Joined back to Him ??
1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
:dontknow: I think I should let him speak for himself :mshock:
:grin: I still stumble over other peoples words, I always have I think I always will, but I think thats why revelation jumps out at me when His words are used because there is nothing better then our Lords words. They do help me personally
This always reminds me of the passage that states the earth groans to see the sons of God. When the sons manifest, the body of Christ manifests.
Quote from: Nathan on December 27, 2008, 04:09:35 AM
Yeah, the reigning with Christ a thousand years . .this entire spiritual concept really does fit together like a spiritual puzzle . .. but often times, we get into discussions on one point that we don't quite get to see the entire picture. But the thousand year reign for me IS A PICTURE of the holy of holies . . . it's not about the thousand years, it's about finding "rest". The thousand year part is simply the sign, signifying where the rest is established . . ."in Christ" which is the Holy of holies . . .it's where the presence of God resides upon the MERCY SEAT . . . it's a SEAT . . .it's where Christ is SEATED in God's throne room.
The Melchezedek order is the order of the thousand year reign . .it's still revealing Christ. It's not how long people will be with him in a specific state of mind before that one ends and we go to another . . .the thousand year reign is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The coming of the third day is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The destruction of the carnality of man is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The woes that were proclaimed again, to the carnal flesh of man is a revelation of Jesus Christ. When you put the pieces all together, you do not have the destruction of God's creation in the flesh . . .you have a revelation of Jesus Christ in the Spirit.
EXACTLY, Amen. The third day is the same as the 7th day, it is like a double Sabbath, and they ARE the Spirit which is Christ, a many membered Spirit body, manifesting through a many membered glorified body.
Matt. 24: 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert (outer court); go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers (inner court); believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The "lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth unto the west, is the sun. The sun's path came through the outer court and had there been no coverings upon the two other parts, would have risen pointing into the Holy of Holies.
Since the outer court (east facing) speaks of the flesh of man(kind), He was saying that He would come in the same way He came before......in the flesh of MAN, but this time a many membered man, which is why we were told above to not look in one place, as if looking for one singular man. Just as the High Priest walked in from outer court, to inner court, to Holy of Holies, like the path of the sun, so He has come, He will come, and He is to come, ever increasing in a body of people who are called by His name/nature.
He is coming in the clouds of glory alright. Clouds means DUST, which is why people in Jude are spoken of as clouds without water (without the Spirit). Clouds are also in thought as the smallest particle of something, which is the translation of the word twinkling, as in twinkling of an eye, the Greek word atomos, where we get the word atom from.
When He has made His holy incense (ground us to powder/dust), compounded it together (compacted together with what every joint supplieth = His perfected love), He will take two handfuls to offer up on the "day of Atonement", ie. the morning and the evening sacrifice, His left and right hand (no one can take us out of His hands).
The cloud of witnesse(S), two is the number of witness = those that have died in Christ already and those that are alive in Christ and remain, at His coming, ie. the two handfuls. They, without us cannot be made perfect, or complete (number 7 means perfect, complete, sacred) in Him.
Malachi 4: 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the SUN of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. Blessings....
..with healing in his wings..
The wings are the chambers of the priests.
Cardinal! :cloud9:
"sun"
H8121
שׁמשׁ
shemesh
sheh'-mesh
From an unused root meaning to be brilliant; the sun; by implication the east; figuratively a ray, that is, (architecturally) a notched battlement: - + east side (-ward), sun ([rising]), + west (-ward), window. See also H1053.
:cloud9: Yes, and ray and chamber are connected as is the "rib" (redeemed soul) that is returning through the wound in His side......chamber and rib are the same. Good to be rejoicing with you again, Molly! Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 27, 2008, 05:31:33 AM
Quote from: Nathan on December 27, 2008, 04:09:35 AM
Yeah, the reigning with Christ a thousand years . .this entire spiritual concept really does fit together like a spiritual puzzle . .. but often times, we get into discussions on one point that we don't quite get to see the entire picture. But the thousand year reign for me IS A PICTURE of the holy of holies . . . it's not about the thousand years, it's about finding "rest". The thousand year part is simply the sign, signifying where the rest is established . . ."in Christ" which is the Holy of holies . . .it's where the presence of God resides upon the MERCY SEAT . . . it's a SEAT . . .it's where Christ is SEATED in God's throne room.
The Melchezedek order is the order of the thousand year reign . .it's still revealing Christ. It's not how long people will be with him in a specific state of mind before that one ends and we go to another . . .the thousand year reign is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The coming of the third day is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The destruction of the carnality of man is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The woes that were proclaimed again, to the carnal flesh of man is a revelation of Jesus Christ. When you put the pieces all together, you do not have the destruction of God's creation in the flesh . . .you have a revelation of Jesus Christ in the Spirit.
EXACTLY, Amen. The third day is the same as the 7th day, it is like a double Sabbath, and they ARE the Spirit which is Christ, a many membered Spirit body, manifesting through a many membered glorified body.
Matt. 24: 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert (outer court); go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers (inner court); believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The "lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth unto the west, is the sun. The sun's path came through the outer court and had there been no coverings upon the two other parts, would have risen pointing into the Holy of Holies.
Since the outer court (east facing) speaks of the flesh of man(kind), He was saying that He would come in the same way He came before......in the flesh of MAN, but this time a many membered man, which is why we were told above to not look in one place, as if looking for one singular man. Just as the High Priest walked in from outer court, to inner court, to Holy of Holies, like the path of the sun, so He has come, He will come, and He is to come, ever increasing in a body of people who are called by His name/nature.
He is coming in the clouds of glory alright. Clouds means DUST, which is why people in Jude are spoken of as clouds without water (without the Spirit). Clouds are also in thought as the smallest particle of something, which is the translation of the word twinkling, as in twinkling of an eye, the Greek word atomos, where we get the word atom from.
When He has made His holy incense (ground us to powder/dust), compounded it together (compacted together with what every joint supplieth = His perfected love), He will take two handfuls to offer up on the "day of Atonement", ie. the morning and the evening sacrifice, His left and right hand (no one can take us out of His hands).
The cloud of witnesse(S), two is the number of witness = those that have died in Christ already and those that are alive in Christ and remain, at His coming, ie. the two handfuls. They, without us cannot be made perfect, or complete (number 7 means perfect, complete, sacred) in Him.
Malachi 4: 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the SUN of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. Blessings....
wowza..
Great to see around these parts once more sis... :icon_flower:
Such an enjoyable thread :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 26, 2008, 09:43:21 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 26, 2008, 08:27:20 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 06:10:39 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 05:50:09 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 02:39:20 AM
He ha Tony..Tis Nothing to do with READING..tis to do WITH undestanding the LIGHT of Knowledge Bro... :bgdance:
It actually has to do with believing what Jesus said.
I find more and more that people want to believe their own little world-view their minds make up rather than what Jesus said.
If Jesus said that His return will be as apparent as the lightening shining from the east to the west, then that is exactly what he meant. If someone comes along and says the lightening flashing from east to west represents grasshoppers crawling out of your nose, well, then, I have a problem with that. But most here would probably be impressed by such a grand NEW revelation that God did not give them.
Hello......What Jesus spoke to the public was figurative, scripture tells us so, (its that what we believe).
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Umm, Taffy, Jesus was not speaking in parables to His disciples in Matthew 24 or 25. And He was not speaking to the "public" in Matthew 24 or 25.
Here's proof:
Mat 24:1-3 And, coming out, Jesus went from the sanctuary. And His disciples approached to exhibit to Him the buildings of the sanctuary." (2) Yet He, answering, said to them, "Are you not observing all these? Verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances may a stone here be left on a stone, which shall not be demolished." (3) Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?
It is in that context that Jesus told them that His appearing would be like lightning appearing from the east to the west. It would be so apparent you can't miss it.
Next.
.
Tony Bro :icon_flower:
When spoke at the passover."EAT this BREAD and Drink THIS wine", who was He speaking to THEN..the MULTITUDE?....
Figurative Dont ya Think? :icon_flower:
Using the Natural to Explain the Spiritual, but figurative...Tis Like Revelation....Or maybe you CANT Read...Tis signified...
That Is ,WORDED in symbols....
Im just waiting on this Beast Rising from the SEA with several heads and Crowns....If ya See Him Be sure to take a Picture or Two and Post it on Tent, just in case Me misses it :icon_flower:
Seeing is Believing egh :icon_flower:
Taffy, again, Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables so they would not see, hear or have their hearts open so that Isaiah's prophecy would come to pass.
Now then, Jesus saying "this is my body, this is my blood" is not a parable. It is a figure of speech and was told to His disciples, not the multitudes.
He is not using the natural to explain the spiritual but used a figure of speech to explain His death.
Jesus saying His return would be as apparent as lightning shining from the east to the west. That is not a parable but a FACT.
Tony , thought Id mentioned it was figurative , although I may not have explained it well enough , never the less,the Point being Terms in the Natural are used to unveil spiritual Truths ...,
while you are still determined to see these terms Literally ....
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
or this maybe? """""""""""""" signifying""""""""""""""
Voice, Heaven Earth :icon_flower:
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Hbr 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:
Hbr 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Hbr 12:27 And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
First the natural THEN the Spiritual
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Tony .youll see what you see , :icon_flower:
Be blessed
Taffy, what is the natural and the spiritual of these two sayings of Jesus:
"Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Mat 26:26-28 "Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, "Take, eat. This is My body." (27) And taking the cup and giving thanks, He gives it to them, saying, "Drink of it all, (28) for this is My blood of the new covenant, that is shed for many for the pardon of sins."
QuoteTaffy, what is the natural and the spiritual of these two sayings of Jesus:
"Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Mat 26:26-28 "Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, "Take, eat. This is My body." (27) And taking the cup and giving thanks, He gives it to them, saying, "Drink of it all, (28) for this is My blood of the new covenant, that is shed for many for the pardon of sins."
Hi Tony,
There are a few suggestions else where on this thread which for me give a very good explaination of Lightening Coming from the East to the West , spoken After the Literal Temple.
I see Lightening AS a Brightness( SUN, DAY, LIGHT,Revelation, UNVEILING,Righteousness etc) , A LIGHT in regards to Christ, The LIGHT which SHINES in the Heart Of Men ,The MORNING Star Rising in our Hearts..as expounded some by Nathan , Cardinal :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
His written wording of the Natural ,physical to explain the Spiritual Reality regarding the Literal and Spiritual Temple.
Christ , The Hidden Manna, the Hope within US all, whos body (Bread) was Broken and Blood Spilt ( wine) for the remission of Sins, Who is the New Covenant., Each to Partake of This Bread and wine making US whole AND Complete In HIM, receiving a Portion of Faith, Christ who is the Substance of IT, till WE ALL be Brought to the UNITY in HIM.
:icon_flower:
"Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
The only place I've seen lightning do that is in Kansas. A boyfriend dragged me out in a field during a thunderstorm to see the lightning (stupid, I know). No trees--so you have a 360degree panorama of the entire sky, and yes the lightning would do that --all across the horizon--jumping from cloud to cloud --it was everywhere at once and spectacular. So that is the literal meaning of it to me--all eyes will see it because it will happen everywhere at once. Christ will be everywhere. And, again, literally, I'm not sure how that could happen unless he is appearing suddenly in every son scattered across the earth.
Again, literally, from Ezekiel, the east gate of the temple is closed until the prince appears. It is now literally closed in the temple of Jerusalem (not that there's any temple there anyways). I read that when the muslims occupied that city during the ottoman empire, they closed that gate because of the prophecy and put a cemetary there to bar it. But east to west connotes entering by the king's gate and walking straight through to the holy of holies, which only the high priest could do.
1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
--Eze 44
:cloud9: I'll get back to you later today Fireinfolding, thanks for the imput, Amen. What I love about the symbolism, is do you realize that right now it is happening in that when two (or more) "clouds" are getting together, we have "lightning"/illumination? Blessings....
Yo Fire
Great Post ... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:.
Clouds are quite facinating,like ya mentioned , A covering, Messengers, Christ himself depicted Many times as Single Cloud
Exd 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
Exd 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, [from] before the people
I cant help again to this in relation to the Two Cs.... :dontknow:
are there Not two Pillars at the Door of the Temple?
Deu 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.
2Ch 3:15 Also he made before the house two pillars of thirty and five cubits high, and the chapiter that [was] on the top of each of them [was] five cubits.
2Ch 3:16 And he made chains, [as] in the oracle, and put [them] on the heads of the pillars; and made an hundred pomegranates, and put [them] on the chains.
2Ch 3:17 And he reared up the pillars before the temple, one on the right hand, and the other on the left; and called the name of that on the right hand Jachin, and the name of that on the left Boaz.
maybe someone can throw some light on this :icon_flower:
Twas something we talking about the Other day...Twin Towers(Pillars) :dontknow:
"Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks will receive, and anyone who seeks will find, and the door will be opened to those who knock. Would any of you who are fathers give your son a stone when he asks for bread? Or would you give him a snake when he asks for a fish? As bad as you are, you know how to give good things to your children. How much more, then, will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" (Matthew 7:7-11)
"If anyone hears my voice and opens the door [of their heart], I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20)
So, I say, keep on asking, searching, and knock, knock, knocking on heavens door!
Much truth and comfort, as He never fails to respond, and is ALWAYS present.
Excellent write my friends; brothers and sisters.
peacemaker
God thunders marvellously with his voice; great things does he, which we cannot comprehend.
Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou [on] the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
Job 37:7 He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work.
Job 37:8 Then the beasts go into dens, and remain in their places.
Job 37:9 Out of the south cometh the whirlwind: and cold out of the north.
Job 37:10 By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened.
Job 37:11 Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud:
Job 37:12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Job 37:13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy. !! three reasons why !!
Job 37:14 Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.
Job 37:15 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine?
Job 37:16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
more on Jobs Clouds /WITNESSES :thumbsup:
Mar 9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receives me: and whosoever shall receive me, receives not me, but him that sent me. !! 3 fold witness
QuoteProv 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
False ministers even as clouds without rain
As Rosie would say Sis" Good to see ya Back in the Saddle" :icon_flower:
Yup, with out RAIN, DRY and Arid Speaking Dead Mans Dust( food) :icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on December 27, 2008, 08:05:55 PM
God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.
Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou [on] the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
Job 37:7 He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work.
Job 37:8 Then the beasts go into dens, and remain in their places.
Job 37:9 Out of the south cometh the whirlwind: and cold out of the north.
Job 37:10 By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened.
Job 37:11 Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud:
Job 37:12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Job 37:13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy. !! three reasons why !!
Job 37:14 Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.
Job 37:15 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine?
Job 37:16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
more on Jobs Clouds /WITNESSES :thumbsup:
Mar 9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receives me: and whosoever shall receive me, receives not me, but him that sent me. !! 3 fold witness
Yehaaa, ya posted over me sis..... :icon_flower:
Amen! :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 27, 2008, 08:08:00 PM
QuoteProv 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
False ministers even as clouds without rain
As Rosie would say Sis" Good to see ya Back in the Saddle" :icon_flower:
Yup, with out RAIN, DRY and Arid Speaking Dead Mans Dust( food) :icon_flower:
hee hee , yeppers trying to keep the adders off the horses heels , so we can ride in the saddle again :winkgrin:
Dan/judges shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that bites the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Gen 49:18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
I wait for the Lord , His docrtine /teaching as the dew of Heaven :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Trip momentarily delayed........great word coming forth everybody! And so, Fireinfolding first post, Amen, Galilee = circuit. We are "caught up" in a circuit, in the sense of one revolution, as in a whirlwind being composed of revolutions. Generation means the same thing. So when revelation of the Spirit comes to us, quickening us, we are at that moment, caught up in the Spirit another revolution "higher". This "whirlwind" IS the pillar of cloud, and the cloud we were told to meet Him in.
And so by this process, we no longer know Him after the flesh, but after the Spirit (revelation), and once we see Him in this "new" form, the flesh of Him disappears, and we begin to only see Him as He is now. As He is now, is in the twinkling of an eye, the split second the new revelation of His nature is revealed to you. It is not a moment in time, but a "non-moment" of Spirit which is eternal, ie. heaven/spirit and earth "met". In this process we are translated out of the kingdom of darkness (carnal mind) and into the kingdom of light (mind of Christ), a little at a time, awaiting the final trump (revelation) that brings about the redemption of our body. Blessings.....
so true! , i love Job one of my most fav books of the Word . :HeartThrob:
QuoteThis is definately something I need to study more about G, but yes I see them as you put them forth its just connecting them to Him aright in my own studies, which may be why I didnt catch the twin towers Im coming up behind on this, you think these might play into the part Samson had in seeking placement between two pillars who killed more in his death then in His life, in somekind of similitude or maybe it has no relevance at all? Not sure but something I'd like to seek out and understnad more of myself
Likewise sis , need to see more connections and a Bigger picture me self,..Pomegrantes always come acroos as statutes of LAW,..96 Rows'''', "sown to the pahrisees , specially upon their Shoulders,,"Burden,..can see some things,,but just need to Understand more for confirmation..Nice point on solomon.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: peacemaker on December 27, 2008, 07:57:48 PM
"Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks will receive, and anyone who seeks will find, and the door will be opened to those who knock. Would any of you who are fathers give your son a stone when he asks for bread? Or would you give him a snake when he asks for a fish? As bad as you are, you know how to give good things to your children. How much more, then, will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" (Matthew 7:7-11)
"If anyone hears my voice and opens the door [of their heart], I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20)
So, I say, keep on asking, searching, and knock, knock, knocking on heavens door!
Much truth and comfort, as He never fails to respond, and is ALWAYS present.
Excellent write my friends; brothers and sisters.
peacemaker
Hi PM,
This threads been so active , ya post got by me Bro..... :thumbsup:
Christ In us Our HOPE of Glory :icon_flower:
:cloud9: What He gave me on not discerning the Lord's body is that it is when we don't yet have the revelation that His body is Spirit now, and that He is in EVERYONE, ie. He is the light of ALL MEN that come into the world. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 27, 2008, 08:49:09 PM
:cloud9: What He gave me on not discerning the Lord's body is that it is when we don't yet have the revelation that His body is Spirit now, and that He is in EVERYONE, ie. He is the light of ALL MEN that come into the world. Blessings....
Kinda see it this way meself, making Christ Of NON EFFECT
For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For those who fell from Grace ,For if we JUDGE ourselves , we will NOT be judged.
1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
QuoteWell until some kind of clarity comes bursting in
Tis one which sits with you UNTIL...yup I agree :icon_flower:
:cloud9: The way He gave it to me is this.......there were two trees in the midst of the garden = table of shewbread and the golden candlestick. If then, the inner court is the midst of HIS garden, then the whole thing, including the outer court which is representative of all men (as opposed to the Spirit filled HG baptized spiritual priesthood of the inner court realm),then the whole garden is His. He is the treasure hid in the field, the pearl of great price.
We are asleep (dead) unawakened until Christ has begun to rise in our hearts (daystar arising). He is there, but not rising/resurrecting. This is why He said I have a baptism to be baptized with and how I am bound or constrained until it be accomplished. He is bound in us, until the Spirit baptism of the HG baptizes us.
Ge 22:13 - "And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a RAM caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son."
The RAM was BOUND, and offered up for a burnt offering. And so, in the repeat of this pattern, Christ the "ram" is bound in us, until presented for a burnt offering, ie. the Holy Ghost comes upon us with tongues of FIRE. Christ IS the firstfruits offering, and G-d will supply the offering.
And it is this same fire of G-d that begins to consume all that which is not like G-d, ie. the tares of Matt. 13, as the angels (messages of TRUTH, or messengers of TRUTH), come at the order of G-d to do His bidding, which is to throw the tares into the fire, that the end of this "world" or fleshly dominion (empowered by Satan through the tares he planted while man slept in the dust), ends. Blessings....
PS. This is why the gospel is stated to be......the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Hear that in a different way......He is "dead" (outer court/not known even as we are known), buried (inner court/flesh of Him no longer seen), and resurrected (Holy of Holies/manifested son/s) IN US.
Quote from: Taffy on December 27, 2008, 08:58:45 PM
Kinda see it this way meself, making Christ Of NON EFFECT
For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For those who fell from Grace ,For if we JUDGE ourselves , we will NOT be judged.
1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Right, Taffy, He is made of none effect by not pressing in to see Him as He is now, also. It is imperative that we press in to see Him as He is now, and see His body in all, because without this revelation we are not permitted to partake of communion (being fed the Christ nature/bread contained in His secret pavilions), which is the basis for the feast of tabernacles being fulfilled in the Spirit. Blessings....
Wow! What a great time of revelating in the Spirit!!! This is so exciting to read your thoughts and see how things fit, yet there is still much growth transpiring at the same time.
One of the predominant things that has been resonating in me today as I play catch up on this conversation is . . .two-fold. One piece is birthing from the clouds . . .the other from the pillars . . . I see the two pillars as the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation, referrenced as the anointed ones of Zechariah 4 . .which for me, is the Holy Spirit and the Son that stand before the Father's throne . . .which of course would be God.
And yet another . . .this is like observing a diamond . . .it's the same diamond, but as you turn it, you see innumerable things each time the light hits it from a different angle. In this case, the pillars are my diamond. And as I mentioned, they appear to me as the Spirit and Son that support the foundation (cornerstone anyone?) of the house of God . . .which is again, us . . .and it is me. Then in turning this diamond, I also see the pillars representing the former and latter rain . . .these two rains are what the kingdom is made of . . .they are what create such a great bounty that the reaper over-runs the planter . . .that Ephraim overruns the inheritance of Menessah.
When you are in the spirit, everything is at lightning speed.
As it was in the days of Noah .. .so shall it be in the time of the coming of the son of man. We discussed yesterday that the 7th day and the 3rd day are one and the same. The third day from Christ, who came on the 4th day, becomes the 7th day. We are "in" the last day of the last days. Can you imagine??? All your friends and family seeing what you're seeing . .sharing what you're sharing . .because in the last days . . .there will be no teaching . .it will all be based on "seeing-only" relationship in Christ.
Flesh and blood can not teach what you are sharing. This is why some tend to struggle with these kinds of conversations. You can quote the Scripture that "led" you to this place, but it doesn't explain it. It's simply a sign that points to the gate, the door . .which is Christ, who is the volume of the book. But it's not the book itself that does the revealing. It's the Spirit that inspired the book to be written. And the Word changes form . .from that which is without, to that which is within.
Using the Word for proof of what you're sharing is not faith. And as mentioned earlier . . .if your not living in faith, you're living in sin (missing the mark).
Hmmm . . .missing the "mark". What is the mark? Knee-jerk response is that it's the mark of the beast . .but that's nothing more than a copy-cat of the true mark. Because in Ezekiel we see that it was those who longed for the presence of God that had the mark upon their foreheads (renewed minds) which protected them from the ominous judgment of the first destruction of the original temple by the Babylonians. So for me, sin simply means we're walking in the wrong mark. We're walking by the mark of man rather than the mark that the message of truth embeds in our hearts and minds.
"The pillars, appear to be two inflectional points of an apparent path; life and death."
For example, a drought and a flood are not disconnected events, but opposite aspects of rainfall.
peacemaker
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 10:25:27 PM
Boy that was a mess! sorry :grin:
Nah it wasnt , I can see what ya saying too, but also In what Nat has Shared .
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 09:10:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 27, 2008, 08:58:45 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 27, 2008, 08:49:09 PM
:cloud9: What He gave me on not discerning the Lord's body is that it is when we don't yet have the revelation that His body is Spirit now, and that He is in EVERYONE, ie. He is the light of ALL MEN that come into the world. Blessings....
Kinda see it this way meself, making Christ Of NON EFFECT
For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For those who fell from Grace ,For if we JUDGE ourselves , we will NOT be judged.
1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Ok I can see the effect verses the no effect here
Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and THE EFFECT of righteousness quietness and ASSURANCE for ever.
Ephes 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by THE EFFECTUAL working of his POWER
1Thes 1:5 For our gospel came NOT unto you in word only, but also IN POWER, and in the Holy Ghost, and in MUCH ASSURANCE; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
I guess verses NONE ASSURANCE huh? :grin:
here...
Duet 28:66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have NONE ASSURANCE of thy life:
His words are so perfect!
Just read Cards Post..My understanding come another ways sis..An Unveiling of whats was already there, To RE-veal, is something which has always BEEN there But HID, like the Treasure in the Feild,....
Theres Nothing which is HID which SHALL not be REveiled...
The secret hidden in the Chambers,...etc
Quoteif your not living in faith, you're living in sin
Nice to see ya about Nat....
Like Fire,, i come to see it the ways she explained on the third day , Likened to the FIRST Day which Is the LAST Day Likened to the Sabbath...HIS REST. :icon_flower:
and Yup that which is NOT faith IS SIN.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 27, 2008, 09:25:17 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 27, 2008, 08:58:45 PM
Kinda see it this way meself, making Christ Of NON EFFECT
For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For those who fell from Grace ,For if we JUDGE ourselves , we will NOT be judged.
1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Right, Taffy, He is made of none effect by not pressing in to see Him as He is now, also. It is imperative that we press in to see Him as He is now, and see His body in all, because without this revelation we are not permitted to partake of communion (being fed the Christ nature/bread contained in His secret pavilions), which is the basis for the feast of tabernacles being fulfilled in the Spirit. Blessings....
A "pressing In" regard to Tribulation,Child birth ,....
Im not sure all at the Time Understood Pauls words but perceived them only to Be of Them,..but the Bigger picture may have come to many later , as it did with Paul , The Secret Hid within :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 11:11:13 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 27, 2008, 10:47:20 PM
Quoteif your not living in faith, you're living in sin
Nice to see ya about Nat....
Like Fire,, i come to see it the ways she explained on the third day , Likened to the FIRST Day which Is the LAST Day Likened to the Sabbath...HIS REST. :icon_flower:
and Yup that which is NOT faith IS SIN.... :icon_flower:
He is the first and the last and the beginning and the end, it sure seems to testify of Him in these things for sure :bigGrin:
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 27, 2008, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 10:25:27 PM
Boy that was a mess! sorry :grin:
Nah it wasnt , I can see what ya saying too, but also In what Nat has Shared .
:icon_flower:
You were always good at overlooking my messes :grin:
((hugs)) :HeartThrob:
YOUR messes..ya say..he ha...me cant shpell
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 11:23:08 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 27, 2008, 11:17:46 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 27, 2008, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 10:25:27 PM
Boy that was a mess! sorry :grin:
Nah it wasnt , I can see what ya saying too, but also In what Nat has Shared .
:icon_flower:
You were always good at overlooking my messes :grin:
((hugs)) :HeartThrob:
YOUR messes..ya say..he ha...me cant shpell
:HeartThrob:
I overlook yours too then :grin: :grin:
(psst! I always considered them typos bro, Im not keeping a record) :grin:
Ya too Kind sis........I even edit then two or three times and there still Poor... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 09:51:25 PM
Yes, ok Cardinal I do like alot of what your sharing here and I do realize our life is HID in Christ and theres a looking forward to a when Christ who is our life APPEARS is very similiar to the SIGN OF the son of man IN the Clouds (where he was both received and in that which HID Him from sight) wherewith is makes even more sense not to know others after the flesh, some clouds have rain and others dont? Dark clouds and rain clouds? :grin:
Yes, I see what you said this way too; His Spirit IS life, the Spirit that is Christ as He is now, appears in our heavens (mind of Christ) with each revelation. That is His appearing, comparing natural (outer court/east) things to spiritual (Holy of Holies/west), as He when He appears He always reveals the natural witness along with the spiritual meat. In this way, we know His appearing, because the natural creation and the Word that is letter, cannot lie, they are both witnesses, depending on what aspect of Truth is being revealed to you. Blessings....
:cloud9: Yes, Amen Nathan......I see the pillars also as Moses and Elijah, to whom it was given to sit on His left and His right, because of a revelation given to me pertaining to the whirlwind/cloud, also. Ultimately, our heart becomes His throne, once the "works" are done, He sits upon it. To sit is a Hebraism meaning, work is done.
Moses/letter/bread/cold wind and Elijah/Spirit/wine/hot wind (fire). Just as in the natural it takes a cold wind coming into contact with a hot wind to produce a whirlwind, so too does it take both the letter and the Spirit to produce the Son in the midst. True communion is partaking of the bread/letter with the wine/Spirit, and this "whirlwind" is what raises up the Son in us, which is what raises US up, because the wheat and the "tares" are raised up together. Again, this is the (pillar of) cloud we were told to meet Him in.
To sin means to miss the mark, this mark is the mind of Christ. And yes, we are in the last days chronologically. But we are also becoming one with the day of the Lord, ie. no part darkness. Blessings...
Quote from: Taffy on December 27, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
A "pressing In" regard to Tribulation,Child birth ,....
Im not sure all at the Time Understood Pauls words but perceived them only to Be of Them,..but the Bigger picture may have come to many later , as it did with Paul , The Secret Hid within :icon_flower:
I've wondered if Paul himself understood all that he was given, as I would think it would be a most terrible burden to fully see what you cannot attain, only because you are a "man out of season". Blessings...
:cloud9: By natural creation, I mean the natural creation by it's very design displays some aspect(s) of His glory/nature. It has to, it came forth out of Him, and "how can He be any less than what He is?", ie. a question He put to me once regarding this. Blessings....
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 28, 2008, 01:44:17 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 28, 2008, 01:08:14 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 09:51:25 PM
Yes, ok Cardinal I do like alot of what your sharing here and I do realize our life is HID in Christ and theres a looking forward to a when Christ who is our life APPEARS is very similiar to the SIGN OF the son of man IN the Clouds (where he was both received and in that which HID Him from sight) wherewith is makes even more sense not to know others after the flesh, some clouds have rain and others dont? Dark clouds and rain clouds? :grin:
Yes, I see what you said this way too; His Spirit IS life, the Spirit that is Christ as He is now, appears in our heavens (mind of Christ) with each revelation. That is His appearing, comparing natural (outer court/east) things to spiritual (Holy of Holies/west), as He when He appears He always reveals the natural witness along with the spiritual meat. In this way, we know His appearing, because the natural creation and the Word that is letter, cannot lie, they are both witnesses, depending on what aspect of Truth is being revealed to you. Blessings....
Cardinal blessing to you too, though I dont know about the natural creation not lying :grin: I mean ya can set a flame in a bush and burn that bad boy to a crisp :grin: except when God did otherwise in the burning bush deal :grin: Just an example or two... I mean if you consider stuff like Samson having long hair and God taking off when he had it cut (losing what it signified) but the very opposite seems true regarding men having long hair (as Samson is shown having in scripture) and yet Paul had to appeal to "nature" to teach them that (over scripture itself) in relation to this. Sometimes I see more of a conflict between the letter of the word and nature especially in these particular instances to name a couple. They sure do appear to show the exact opposite (after the letter of the word) ofcourse. Like it dont always work out that way between the letter and nature itself as witnesses you think? Not withstanding the *invisible* power of God is made known through the things made, but comparing spiritual things with spiritual would certainly not have that burning bush in question :grin: and then again... Pauls appeal to *nature* regarding the hair deal would not be a contradictory move on his part either then :grin: In relation to the letter (and nature) that is :grin:
Hair is another study in and of itself as well when hovering over things of a revelating nature. For me, anything seen pertaining to the head is connected to the mind of man. Anything connected to man is pertaining to carnality. Hair is what covers the head . . . there are as many hairs on ones head as there are sands of the sea . . .as many thoughts of a bottomless pit. When God knows the number of hairs on ones head . . .God knows the thoughts of a man's heart. Absolom was known for his hair as well. Interestingly enough, his hair was what got him murdered by David's chief of his army. He got his hair "caught" in the thorns of a grove of thorn trees while running for his life . . .it was his carnal desires that caused him to try to overthrow his father . . .and the thorns . .which always represent curse, are what got him tangled up . . "cursed is any man who hangs from a tree".
Think about that . . . it's a passage of Scripture. And when you realize men are trees . . . cursed is anything that grows from the carnality of a man's mind. I'm sure you've heard the saying "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree" . . .in referring to the offspring of an individual. Well, it's the same way inwardly. When I act on my own fruit of natural thinking and reasoning, there is no good that can come from it . .because the source of good is in faith, which is believing what can't be naturally seen, accepting what can't be naturally understood.
This curse is what Adam had to deal with . .as well as Cain. No matter how much they would till the ground, it would still produce thorns and thistles. No matter how much we apply our natural reasoning to seeds of life planted within us and others, we still will not be able to comprehend the spiritual reality of all that God has established in and around us.
Scripture says to fill your MIND with HEAVENLY (spiritual) thoughts (not the natural experiences and events around your physical world). When your mind is full of heaven, your hair is connected to that as the thoughts from within, manifest without. Samson's hair was a manifestation that his mind belonged to God. But when he turned his passion over to another, she buzzed his hair and he lost his power as he no longer had the mind of God, but of man.
In bondage, he found power in his origin which manifested in his hair once again . . . even though his physical eyes were removed . . .to also show he let his natural desires blind him from his spiritual purpose, in spite of his weakness, grace manifested and the carnal man was again dealt with as the power of God returned to a mortal body.
:thumbsup:
Jesus filled his mind with heavenly thoughts--what else was he doing in all those hours spent in prayer off by himself in gardens and on top of mountains?
He also fed the poor, healed the sick, and got in the faces of the evil leaders of his society.
So, there you have it--you can do both.
In fact, both are probably required...
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 28, 2008, 07:07:46 PM
Quote from: crowbar on December 28, 2008, 07:22:38 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 28, 2008, 01:44:17 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 28, 2008, 01:08:14 AM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 27, 2008, 09:51:25 PM
Yes, ok Cardinal I do like alot of what your sharing here and I do realize our life is HID in Christ and theres a looking forward to a when Christ who is our life APPEARS is very similiar to the SIGN OF the son of man IN the Clouds (where he was both received and in that which HID Him from sight) wherewith is makes even more sense not to know others after the flesh, some clouds have rain and others dont? Dark clouds and rain clouds? :grin:
Yes, I see what you said this way too; His Spirit IS life, the Spirit that is Christ as He is now, appears in our heavens (mind of Christ) with each revelation. That is His appearing, comparing natural (outer court/east) things to spiritual (Holy of Holies/west), as He when He appears He always reveals the natural witness along with the spiritual meat. In this way, we know His appearing, because the natural creation and the Word that is letter, cannot lie, they are both witnesses, depending on what aspect of Truth is being revealed to you. Blessings....
Cardinal blessing to you too, though I dont know about the natural creation not lying :grin: I mean ya can set a flame in a bush and burn that bad boy to a crisp :grin: except when God did otherwise in the burning bush deal :grin: Just an example or two... I mean if you consider stuff like Samson having long hair and God taking off when he had it cut (losing what it signified) but the very opposite seems true regarding men having long hair (as Samson is shown having in scripture) and yet Paul had to appeal to "nature" to teach them that (over scripture itself) in relation to this. Sometimes I see more of a conflict between the letter of the word and nature especially in these particular instances to name a couple. They sure do appear to show the exact opposite (after the letter of the word) ofcourse. Like it dont always work out that way between the letter and nature itself as witnesses you think? Not withstanding the *invisible* power of God is made known through the things made, but comparing spiritual things with spiritual would certainly not have that burning bush in question :grin: and then again... Pauls appeal to *nature* regarding the hair deal would not be a contradictory move on his part either then :grin: In relation to the letter (and nature) that is :grin:
Hair is another study in and of itself as well when hovering over things of a revelating nature. For me, anything seen pertaining to the head is connected to the mind of man. Anything connected to man is pertaining to carnality. Hair is what covers the head . . . there are as many hairs on ones head as there are sands of the sea . . .as many thoughts of a bottomless pit. When God knows the number of hairs on ones head . . .God knows the thoughts of a man's heart. Absolom was known for his hair as well. Interestingly enough, his hair was what got him murdered by David's chief of his army. He got his hair "caught" in the thorns of a grove of thorn trees while running for his life . . .it was his carnal desires that caused him to try to overthrow his father . . .and the thorns . .which always represent curse, are what got him tangled up . . "cursed is any man who hangs from a tree".
I have huge studies on the hair, I see it as signified in scripture as well so I dont need a lecture on studying it trust me :grin: my point in the post was regarding the LETTER of the word and NATURE they conflicted as two perfect witnesses and where is "letter and nature regarded as two perfectt witnesses that dont lie" ? :grin:
QuoteThink about that . . . it's a passage of Scripture. And when you realize men are trees . . . cursed is anything that grows from the carnality of a man's mind. I'm sure you've heard the saying "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree" . . .in referring to the offspring of an individual. Well, it's the same way inwardly. When I act on my own fruit of natural thinking and reasoning, there is no good that can come from it . .because the source of good is in faith, which is believing what can't be naturally seen, accepting what can't be naturally understood.
Yes I know People are as trees, what makes you think I havent thought about it? :grin: When I realize?? :grin:
You act on your natural reasoning (or logic) everyday when you put gas in your car, drive down the street, go food shopping and tons of other things, unless YOU pray between isles start speaking in tongues and fall illogically in every isle :grin: Then I'd admit you are irrational and incapable of natural reasoning and no good can come from "that"
QuoteThis curse is what Adam had to deal with . .as well as Cain. No matter how much they would till the ground, it would still produce thorns and thistles. No matter how much we apply our natural reasoning to seeds of life planted within us and others, we still will not be able to comprehend the spiritual reality of all that God has established in and around us.
Scripture says to fill your MIND with HEAVENLY (spiritual) thoughts (not the natural experiences and events around your physical world). When your mind is full of heaven, your hair is connected to that as the thoughts from within, manifest without. Samson's hair was a manifestation that his mind belonged to God. But when he turned his passion over to another, she buzzed his hair and he lost his power as he no longer had the mind of God, but of man.
In bondage, he found power in his origin which manifested in his hair once again . . . even though his physical eyes were removed . . .to also show he let his natural desires blind him from his spiritual purpose, in spite of his weakness, grace manifested and the carnal man was again dealt with as the power of God returned to a mortal body.
Nat thats ALL I did for half my entire life is FILL my thoughts with minding heavenly things and completely IGNORING the affairs od the world around me. Are you trying to lecture me by leveraging that ONE isolated thread about FACTUAL events against me as if I can only understand the letter of the word and am constantly carnally minded? I can look at both now without trying make myself look so "spiritually above" all that. I just had a church feeling flashback :grin:
If I see a natural train coming and decide to stand on the tracks it would be called suicide. So I dont think its an unreasonable thing to tell others about a train coming :winkgrin: Consider me unspiritual I could care less :grin:
Its been real :grin:
The grinding you're hearing are my gears as I back up out of this muck I seem to have gotten myself in. There was no intention of directing one post at one person . .unless I mention someone by name, when I write, I simply write to a "group". Sorry you've taken it as an attack . . .never meant to, never intended to. I will avoid further misunderstandings with you in the future . . .
Seriously, I'm terribly sorry.
.
Quote
Nat its no biggy but I'm not going to say anything. You specifically quoted me so its pretty safe to believe you were speaking to me, not to mention I was the one on the one thread to speak about the upcoming worldly events I wanted isolated on that thread. To both quote me then to bring that up seemed pretty intentional is all, how could I conclude otherwise when you came onto the other thread with sarcasm then mention it here? Why not try "writing to a group" by not quoting anyone in particular (one can get away with it much easier) even though you didnt quote ME on the other thread that once but still directed your thoughts at me with your response
It was just the way you worded it and if you feel you must avoid further misunderstandings by blowing past me then thats ok too. I dont hold it against you or anything I just called you on it and adressed it thats how I see it. Maybe I was too harsh? Then I appologize as well, Im sorry if I over reacted to your response and didnt realize you were talking to the group because it didnt appear that way at all is all.
Peace
Kim
Again, I'm really sorry to have offended you.
Ha! Hardly!!!
Just kidding . . . there's nothing for me to really forgive, I'm the one that instigated this. :IloveU:
Quote from: Tony N on December 27, 2008, 04:25:00 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 26, 2008, 09:43:21 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 26, 2008, 08:27:20 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 06:10:39 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 05:50:09 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 25, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 25, 2008, 02:39:20 AM
He ha Tony..Tis Nothing to do with READING..tis to do WITH undestanding the LIGHT of Knowledge Bro... :bgdance:
It actually has to do with believing what Jesus said.
I find more and more that people want to believe their own little world-view their minds make up rather than what Jesus said.
If Jesus said that His return will be as apparent as the lightening shining from the east to the west, then that is exactly what he meant. If someone comes along and says the lightening flashing from east to west represents grasshoppers crawling out of your nose, well, then, I have a problem with that. But most here would probably be impressed by such a grand NEW revelation that God did not give them.
Hello......What Jesus spoke to the public was figurative, scripture tells us so, (its that what we believe).
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Umm, Taffy, Jesus was not speaking in parables to His disciples in Matthew 24 or 25. And He was not speaking to the "public" in Matthew 24 or 25.
Here's proof:
Mat 24:1-3 And, coming out, Jesus went from the sanctuary. And His disciples approached to exhibit to Him the buildings of the sanctuary." (2) Yet He, answering, said to them, "Are you not observing all these? Verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances may a stone here be left on a stone, which shall not be demolished." (3) Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?
It is in that context that Jesus told them that His appearing would be like lightning appearing from the east to the west. It would be so apparent you can't miss it.
Next.
.
Tony Bro :icon_flower:
When spoke at the passover."EAT this BREAD and Drink THIS wine", who was He speaking to THEN..the MULTITUDE?....
Figurative Dont ya Think? :icon_flower:
Using the Natural to Explain the Spiritual, but figurative...Tis Like Revelation....Or maybe you CANT Read...Tis signified...
That Is ,WORDED in symbols....
Im just waiting on this Beast Rising from the SEA with several heads and Crowns....If ya See Him Be sure to take a Picture or Two and Post it on Tent, just in case Me misses it :icon_flower:
Seeing is Believing egh :icon_flower:
Taffy, again, Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables so they would not see, hear or have their hearts open so that Isaiah's prophecy would come to pass.
Now then, Jesus saying "this is my body, this is my blood" is not a parable. It is a figure of speech and was told to His disciples, not the multitudes.
He is not using the natural to explain the spiritual but used a figure of speech to explain His death.
Jesus saying His return would be as apparent as lightning shining from the east to the west. That is not a parable but a FACT.
Tony , thought Id mentioned it was figurative , although I may not have explained it well enough , never the less,the Point being Terms in the Natural are used to unveil spiritual Truths ...,
while you are still determined to see these terms Literally ....
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
or this maybe? """""""""""""" signifying""""""""""""""
Voice, Heaven Earth :icon_flower:
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Hbr 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:
Hbr 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Hbr 12:27 And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
First the natural THEN the Spiritual
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Tony .youll see what you see , :icon_flower:
Be blessed
Taffy, what is the natural and the spiritual of these two sayings of Jesus:
"Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Mat 26:26-28 "Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, "Take, eat. This is My body." (27) And taking the cup and giving thanks, He gives it to them, saying, "Drink of it all, (28) for this is My blood of the new covenant, that is shed for many for the pardon of sins."
Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Literal . . . Israel, the nation experienced the presence of the Son of Mankind in judgment for their rejection. East from west = complete separation our sins are cast as far as the east is from the west. Israel was completely destroyed as a nation.
Spiritual (using Scripture to interpret Scripture) Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea
The "light" of the Lord will shine from the east (resurrection) to the west (rest = setting of the sun/Son)
Carnal nature / natural reasoning sees all things from a fallen perspective . . .destructive nature, death and darkness, doom and gloom
Spiritual nature / seeing things from a resurrected perspective. Light and life in everything seen. Always beneficial to our own maturity in our relationship with Christ.
Flesh profits nothing, spirit is eternal . . .blah blah blah . . . :soap:
what's your take on the abomination of desolation? Pretrib rapturers think it's the anti-christ (future) sitting in the (rebuilt?) temple ..hmmmm....maybe not ...
Also, if the temple's not rebuilt, then the sacrifice and grain offering verse is also a bit problematic wrt to futurism, huh? ...
I haven't followed every post on this VERY long thread...if this is getting too off topic, maybe you could answer me on the "Is rebuilding the temple unscriptural?" thread...THANKS
I used to be one of those that thought the thsi abomination of desolation was the antichrist of the future. But I've sinced crossed over to seeing it another way. The word for "temple" there is the same word Paul uses when he states "What, know ye not that YOU are a "Temple" of the Holy Ghost?" Which puts your passage in an entirely different light. The antichrist is that which is against God. Paul says that would be the mind of man . .it's always at "enmity" which means to be at war with.
The abomination of desolation for me is when my antichrist mind sets it's doctrines and beliefs up above what the Word has declared . .both written and spoken. When I cover my eyes and plug my ears to truth so that I may keep my own beliefs intact. That is how I see one worshiping "self". I'm more than happy to sacrifice you to serve me better. Which is to say I put to death anything others say that would be against what I believe my superior mind understands. It's the opposite of putting others first, decreasing that He may increase, being last and letting others become first. Trading humility for pride . . .it's all stemming from the power of my carnal mind always striving for that control to get everyone to be in agreement with everything I do and say.
As far as the rebuilding of the temple, If you've read any of my posts, you'll know that I for one beleive that there is a reason why one has not been already built. The excuse is due to the fact there's already another temple built in the same place where this one is to be built. Which tells me that these guys are so worried about achieving "their" standards of perfection that they've already overlooked the real purpose for it all in the first place. If they really wanted to receive their atonement through the animal sacrifices, you'd think that "where" in the holy city the sacrificing was done wouldn't be that big of an issue. But that's just it . . .they would rather not sacrifice at all, than to sacrifice in a location where it's not already sanctified by God . .because God would never accept that sacrifice.
This whole concept of rebuilding the temple is ignoring the fact that for them to do so would be a public decree that Jesus was not the Messiah . . . God is the one that brought it down to nothing and replaced it with his own Son as the High priest . . . To go back to temple worship is to reject the work of the cross. God closed that door . . and no man will be able to open it. No matter how much press we hear about the rebuilding . .I still stand on the fact that it's not going to happen. It hasn't happened in the past 2000 years, it's not going to happen at all.
The passage out of Jeremiah 3:16 is merely icing on the cake for me . .. for the fundamental literists . . . now they to can see that even Scripture states it's not going to be rebuilt. Not by man anyway. It was Jesus who said "tear down this temple and in three days "I'll" rebuild it." And yes, Scripture goes on to say that "they" thought he meant the literal building and "he" was actually referring to his body as the temple . . .which kind of swings back to the abomination of desolation subject again.
But to take it to the next step, are "we" not a corporate temple? Are we not living stones that God has cut (circumcised) not with human hands as he fits us together to become one unit within which his glory and presence manifests? Yeah, "this" is the house that God built. And . . .we are entering into the 3rd day of that three days . . .in other words, there is a completion, an assembling of the wholeness and fulfillment of this spiritual temple . . . and "this" generation is the framework of that temple as we are in the dawning of that 3rd day . . .which is also the last of the 7 days . .which is the Sabbath Day of REST.
Soak on this one . . .As it was in the days of NOAH . .so shall it be in with the coming of the Son of Man . . . Noah literally means . .rest. We are entering that now . . .but it's a choice for the breathing man. You can "see" from the perspective (person) of rest, or continue to walk according to you're "own" understanding . . .just remember . . . his ways are "not" my ways and his thoughts are "not" my thoughts. The realm of God is not the same as the realm of natural reasoning.
How can everything be seen as metaphorically/allegorically/spiritually? Easy . .Romans 1:20 is the platform for seeing things in patterns. God uses the natural things around us, to reveal spiritual truths to, and within us. It's all for the benefit of edifying each other and illuminating Christ in all things.
If there is not going to be a rebuilding of the temple and most everything has already been fulfilled...I would like to know what is in the furure? What do we have to look for? What is next?
Jesus told his disciples, that they would know the end was near even at the doors. It says also that nothing will be done that isn't revealed to his disciples first.
CHB
For me, there will be a day when order is restored as it was in the garden. Where spirit will be as predominant as natural is now . .and the natural will be as invisible, but still very much existing, as spiritual is now. There will be a time when "every knee WILL bow" I'm not a full preterist either . . I think there are still some things yet to manifest. But I think all things are already completed . .it all depends on what realm you choose to dwell in.
Quote from: CHB on January 10, 2009, 05:50:54 PM
If there is not going to be a rebuilding of the temple and most everything has already been fulfilled...I would like to know what is in the furure? What do we have to look for? What is next?
Jesus told his disciples, that they would know the end was near even at the doors. It says also that nothing will be done that isn't revealed to his disciples first.
CHB
for me, human nature is to always look for "greener" pastures; is this it? this is all i have to look forward to?? always looking for "healing" in the future; with despair based on "past" experiences.
in other words, carrying past baggage, and hoping for future salvation. Never living in the NOW
IMO, NOW, is the only place where peace, joy and love are experienced.
For me, it's an ever growing journey in LOVE.
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 05:57:20 PM
For me, there will be a day when order is restored as it was in the garden. Where spirit will be as predominant as natural is now . .and the natural will be as invisible, but still very much existing, as spiritual is now. There will be a time when "every knee WILL bow" I'm not a full preterist either . . I think there are still some things yet to manifest. But I think all things are already completed . .it all depends on what realm you choose to dwell in.
Hi Nathan,
Do you believe there has already been one resurrection,..{besides Christ}..but that there will be another one? How many resurrections do you think there are?
Do you believe there will be a judgment day, or has that already happened?
Do you think (Zech. chapter 14) has already been fulfilled?
CHB
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 05:31:13 PM
Soak on this one . . .As it was in the days of NOAH . .so shall it be in with the coming of the Son of Man . . . Noah literally means . .rest. We are entering that now . . .but it's a choice for the breathing man. You can "see" from the perspective (person) of rest, or continue to walk according to you're "own" understanding . . .just remember . . . his ways are "not" my ways and his thoughts are "not" my thoughts. The realm of God is not the same as the realm of natural reasoning.
How can everything be seen as metaphorically/allegorically/spiritually? Easy . .Romans 1:20 is the platform for seeing things in patterns. God uses the natural things around us, to reveal spiritual truths to, and within us. It's all for the benefit of edifying each other and illuminating Christ in all things.
:cloud9: Amen to all that you said, but I wanted to add a tidbit to this part. The end of all flesh came before God when Noah was 600 years old. The end of all flesh is in the process of coming before Him now, as it is roughly 6000 years or 6 days completed. Knowledge (of the risen Lord) has increased because it is this knowledge or wisdom that is building our "ark", that we might be RAISED above the judgment coming to the flesh of man. Fortunately for all, the waters of judgment are only there to lift us up to "rest" upon a mountain, if so be we have made of ourselves a living sacrifice, choosing His ways over our own (carnal mind's ways). :winkgrin: Blessings....
Quote from: Zeek on January 10, 2009, 06:09:20 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 10, 2009, 05:50:54 PM
If there is not going to be a rebuilding of the temple and most everything has already been fulfilled...I would like to know what is in the furure? What do we have to look for? What is next?
Jesus told his disciples, that they would know the end was near even at the doors. It says also that nothing will be done that isn't revealed to his disciples first.
CHB
for me, human nature is to always look for "greener" pastures; is this it? this is all i have to look forward to?? always looking for "healing" in the future; with despair based on "past" experiences.
in other words, carrying past baggage, and hoping for future salvation. Never living in the NOW
IMO, NOW, is the only place where peace, joy and love are experienced.
For me, it's an ever growing journey in LOVE.
This couldn't be more true. The flesh is never satisfied with "now". Which may work both for and against us. It works for us in the sense that when it comes to the things of the kingdom of God, I'm always hungering and thirsting for more. When it works against, is at those times when refreshing does come through us and we're almost indignant that the world still doesn't notice us. No matter how great God is to us, we always expect bigger and better.
I'm with you man, until I learn to be content with now, I'll never be happy with what's still yet to come. I think that all has to do with entering into that Rest Hebrews 4 speaks to us about.
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 07:41:06 PM
I'm with you man, until I learn to be content with now, I'll never be happy with what's still yet to come.
and the interesting thing is, the more
I try to be content with "now", the less content I am.
But the more I am willing to let myself be "not content with now", but be aware that i'm not; Peace is released.
weird paradox.
blessings
Quote from: CHB on January 10, 2009, 06:40:51 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 05:57:20 PM
For me, there will be a day when order is restored as it was in the garden. Where spirit will be as predominant as natural is now . .and the natural will be as invisible, but still very much existing, as spiritual is now. There will be a time when "every knee WILL bow" I'm not a full preterist either . . I think there are still some things yet to manifest. But I think all things are already completed . .it all depends on what realm you choose to dwell in.
Hi Nathan,
Do you believe there has already been one resurrection,..{besides Christ}..but that there will be another one? How many resurrections do you think there are?
Do you believe there will be a judgment day, or has that already happened?
Do you think (Zech. chapter 14) has already been fulfilled?
CHB
Confession time . . .
I've seen this conversation before and I've stayed out of it. And the reason why is, I really don't know. When I share, it's because usually, God has shown me something in one area or another . . .I have my favorites . . and Revelation "is" one of them, but even then, I can only share what I see. And when it comes to multiple resurrections I may be a few showers short of seeing the intent of it's purpose. In other words, nothing has dropped in my spirit on the issue.
All I see with it is, Resurrection was THE reason why Christ came. But death and burial is all the carnal mind dwells on. I've said this before as well . . that Jesus didn't come just to die for sin . .but he came to give resurrection life. But in order to do that, he first had to die. So resurrection is a spiritual experience for me. And what happens in the spirit, affects the flesh. When I read you guys as you converse with each other . . .the conversations between Kim, Taf, Rose, Cardinal, Willie, Bob, Zeek and others cause a quickening in me that as Kim has stated more than once . . these experiences and feelings are so hard to put into words. But when you guys begin to revelate . . . those are seeds that resurrect. And this quickening I experience, is a result of that resurrecting message that manifests as the conversations play out.
So in that sense, Christ has resurrected, is resurrecting, and continues to resurrect.
As far as the text of "this is the first resurrection" or whatever it actually says . .I can't really say because as i mentioned earlier about Cardinal's explanation on how the Spirit . .jeeze . . how'd she put that, I forgot already and I'm the one that ranted and raved over it when she said it. I'm gonna cheat and repaste what she wrote . . .
in the beginning the Word defines your experience with the Spirit, but after a while the Spirit defines your experience with Word I just LOVE that!!!
So again, to dissect that piece, I've not been led into it to that degree as some others have been. I'm wondering if more, or maybe "different" emphasis on the word "first" might include the idea that it's the "chief" resurrection, rather than a numerical resurrection. I don't know if that fits or not without reading the whole context on it.
But "if" there is going to be a world-wide resurrection . . where is that going to take place do you think? In the flesh? Or in the spirit? If it is in the spirit, then I'd lean toward it happening in the NOW while we are actively being intimate with the Father and he with us that his resurrection nature manifests itself through us as a result. Food for thought.
Quote from: Zeek on January 10, 2009, 07:48:16 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 07:41:06 PM
I'm with you man, until I learn to be content with now, I'll never be happy with what's still yet to come.
and the interesting thing is, the more I try to be content with "now", the less content I am.
But the more I am willing to let myself be "not content with now", but be aware that i'm not; Peace is released.
weird paradox.
blessings
Now for me . . ."that" is how God thinks. Very well said my friend! I actually get what you're saying!! It's all about being in that "I must decrease that He may increase" mentality. As soon as you stop trying, the ability to achieve whatever it was you were "trying" to acheive manifests in you. This is some really good stuff Zeek.
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 08:01:55 PM
Quote from: Zeek on January 10, 2009, 07:48:16 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 07:41:06 PM
I'm with you man, until I learn to be content with now, I'll never be happy with what's still yet to come.
and the interesting thing is, the more I try to be content with "now", the less content I am.
But the more I am willing to let myself be "not content with now", but be aware that i'm not; Peace is released.
weird paradox.
blessings
Now for me . . ."that" is how God thinks. Very well said my friend! I actually get what you're saying!! It's all about being in that "I must decrease that He may increase" mentality. As soon as you stop trying, the ability to achieve whatever it was you were "trying" to acheive manifests in you. This is some really good stuff Zeek.
It's kind of like the more we try, the more "fig leaves" we cover ourselves with; and the more we hide the part that needs to be exposed/naked before Him.
But when we "give up", and allow ourselves to be "naked", to be human (fears, emotions and all) before the Father ; we are clothed with HIM.
thanks brother.
Z
Yup, yup, yup!!
God "knew" we were naked from the beginning. Not once did he imply it was shameful. But the moment they acted on their own observations, they manifested their faith, but it was not faith in God . . .it was faith in the carnality of knowledge . . .dark faith. "Who told you, you were naked" . . .that was one of the first revelations that started me down this long and liberating road from law into life.
Quote from: CHB on January 10, 2009, 06:40:51 PM
Do you think (Zech. chapter 14) has already been fulfilled?
Zechariah 14 is one of those messes of Scripture where, like the New Testament does partial quotations of the Old Testament because they were dealing in partial fulfillments at that time, like when Jesus was preaching in Nazareth it wasn't yet the day of veangeance spoken of in Isaiah 61, so He stopped quoting the text in mid-verse, and then with Isaiah 61 the day of vengeance was on the Cross, and we're the ministers that close the chapter that are supposed to be boasting in having the wealth of the nations, not just the nations themselves but their actual $$$$$ so that with that we can feed them with the covenant heritage that God has for them in all of the ways that they're currently feeding on the devil with Hollywood, their internet sites, their magazines, their DVDs, etc. Takes beaucoup $$$$$$$$ when you're going to disciple nations as we're called to do in this hour, whether we like it or not! Zechariah 14 is a chapter that covers as much as 8,000 to 12,000 years because it includes statements about the New Earth and then later about the all in all existence. It covers 70AD, as well as Armageddon in the next few years, as well as a reference to the sacrifices that have been going on all of this time, as well as a fleeting reference to the Hosea 2:18 Covenant that's relevant from this decade onwards. Zechariah is one of those prophets like Isaiah and Hosea that saw the whole plan of God from beginning to all in all. But Zechariah's prophecies, like many of the rest of the prophecies in the Bible, go all over the place rather than have a modern Western expectation of a clearly distinguished beginning, middle, and end without having to hunt for it.
Thanks Martin, Nathan,
There is so much I think I know but when I start reading and thinking on it, I find I don't know much of anything.
Just wanted to get everyone's ideas on these things. I am keeping an open mind on things like resurrection, judgment, temple, thousand years. These things I am not so sure of. I have been leaning toward a resurrection that has already happened in 70AD. Am not certain of that though. There are so many scriptures that speak of the return of Christ in 70AD. I do believe a lot has already been fulfilled though.
CHB
Mind if I grow "with" you? There are countless (literally) things I don't know either. But the Spirit that is you and me . . and the others that make up this crazy and wonderful family, the spirit that is in us does know these things . . . let the spirit flow . . .understanding will come. Always hungry for more.
The Bible doesn't say the Temple will be rebuild. It says part of the Temple will be rebuild.
YLTMatt 24
1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,
2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'
ἱερόν
hieron
Thayer Definition:
1) a sacred place, temple
1a) used of the temple of Artemis at Ephesus
1b) used of the temple at Jerusalem
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G2413
Citing in TDNT: 3:230, 349
YLTRev 11
1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;
ναός
naos
Thayer Definition:
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice
YLTRev 11
2 and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;
Does that mean the whole world, except the Temple/naos is the court (after the 42 months)..... :boogie:
/Edit My :2c: <--- For James :thumbsup:
Am I to understand that you take the Book of Revelation as literal, when you say the whole world?
To be honest I wasn't thinking about literal and/or spiritual.
The only reason I posted the above was to show exactly what I wrote. Completely destroyed and partly rebuild.
I have no problem as viewing it both literal and spiritual.
BTW I think the renting of the Temple curtain has a similar symbology.
Quote from: wwThe Bible doesn't say the Temple will be rebuild. It says part of the Temple will be rebuild.
YLTMatt 24
1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,
2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'
QuoteYLTRev 11
1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;
ναός
naos
Thayer Definition:
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice
QuoteDoes that mean the whole world, except the Temple/naos is the court (after the 42 months).....
Interesting.
19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
--John 2
The body of Christ is the naos, the sanctuary. That's what is raised up in three days.
The sanctuary has two rooms? But the resurrected Christ [also the transfigured Christ] only has one room, with the rent veil, like King David's tabernacle.
Something interesting is going on there. Help me out.
Two rooms Molly?
Isn't it just one room with the veil of the cherubim between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place?
A second veil, without cherubim, was between the Holy place and the outer court realm.
That second veil was rent just before Jesus died. The Sanhedrin courtroom (Chamber of hewed stone) in which de mock trial of Jesus took place was permanently destroyed. Jesus was the last One judged in that room. I think that has a highly symbolic meaning.
QuoteIsn't it just one room with the veil of the cherubim between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place?
It was a real room with a veil. Isn't a veil just like a door? If I replaced the doors inside my house with curtains does that mean my house suddenly has one room?
Thought:
Veil
===> Being veiled as is no contact with the truth.
===> Father(s plan) unveiled as in Father revealed.
It was one structure with no interiors walls. One room with a veil of Cherubim who are still at work.
:cloud9: The veil is rent, the Father "descends" into the first two, filling all in all with Himself. It's just like the waters above the firmament descending into the waters below the firmament.
The knowledge (in the sense of being one with; Adam KNEW his wife and they were one) of the Lord covering the earth as the waters cover the sea. Blessings...
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 29, 2010, 07:34:13 AM
It was one structure with no interiors walls. One room with a veil of Cherubim who are still at work.
But for me that veil made it 2 rooms. It had a function of a door. I guess it depends a bit on what the exact definition of a room is...
Interesting site: Click the many links. (http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/)
(http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLE00000021.gif)
(http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLE00000018.jpg)
Quote from: Molly on September 29, 2010, 06:22:45 AM
...
Interesting.
19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
--John 2
The body of Christ is the naos, the sanctuary. That's what is raised up in three days.
The sanctuary has two rooms? But the resurrected Christ [also the transfigured Christ] only has one room, with the rent veil, like King David's tabernacle.
Something interesting is going on there. Help me out.
In Rev. 11:1, John is given a reed like a rod, and then he is told to measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Revelation 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But only one dimension is mentioned, its
height. [Rev. 11:19]
The length and breadth are described in Ezekiel's prophecy, chapters 40-48, where Ezekiel describes the temple being measured by an angel; these dimensions show it to be larger than the entire city of Jerusalem. And when Ezekiel wrote, there was no temple standing in Jerusalem, just as when John gave his prophecy about measuring the temple. It is not a temple made with hands, that John wrote about.
The significance of the dimensions given by Ezekiel seem to be that the temple and the holy city are both to be identified with the church. And in Revelation 21, the entire city of the New Jerusalem is contained in the temple, which is the Lord God Almighty, and the Lamb:
Revelation 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. So this is a spiritual city. Everyone who is in the holy city is said to be
"in Christ." It is one of the apostle Paul's favorite phrases in his epistles.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.Isaiah, too, spoke of Zion and Jerusalem as one; together he called them "the mountain of the Lord's house," which was to be raised up, above the hills, above all the high mountains, and nations would "flow" into it; a paradox, as "flow" is usually downhill. But the prophecy is fulfilled in the New Testament, and in the gospel, when Christ, the true temple, was caught up to heaven, to the throne of the Father; the saints are "seated together with him in heavenly places," Paul said, Eph. 2:6.
Isaiah 2:1-3
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. The holy city "Jerusalem" is the name that John applies to the saints, those who are sealed with the Spirit of Christ. Also Hebrews 12:22-23, Galatians 4:26. David spoke of Zion, a name for the temple, as "the city of the great King."
Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.Jesus also referred to Jerusalem as the city of the great King; IMO, he meant the city of the saints in heaven, not the earthly one.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Worth noting is that it had no roof, it was, basically, a Tent covered in skin and cloth.
:cloud9: Sounds familiar doesn't it, since we're basically a tent covered with skin and cloth.
Which makes me think even more that the skins God covered Adam with, was this same temporary dwelling place we're walking around in, a tent of flesh. Blessings.....
2 Peter 1:13 (NIV)
I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,
2 Corinthians 5:1 (CLV)
For we are aware that, IF our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens.
Back a few posts to Molly's question pertaining to the veils . . there were actually three. One led into the outer court, the second led into the temple itself, the third led into the holy of holies. It's all patterned after "God" who manifests in three major dimensions in the Father, Son and Spirit. It brings divine fullness in us and us in him. We are again, three dimensional beings in body, soul and spirit as well. Scripture is written to all men, religious men, and men who have intimacy with the Father . . .dimensions of three. The underlying factor in "threes" is resurrection . . .it all pertains to being resurrected from the death of our "self" into life in Him.
So the veils are that which define one dimension from another. Yet only one of the three is to actually be pursued over the other two. Spirit is over flesh and mind. Intimacy is over knowledge and of course, ignorance all together. In Revelation John was told to measure . .why? Because the Father was "revealing" his nature to him and the measuring implies "identifying with" that which was being revealed. John was not to measure the temple according to his own assessment, but he "was given" a rod to measure with.
He was measuring according to God's perspectives . . .when God measures us, it's through grace due to the finished work of the cross through Christ . . that's what John was measuring with. He wasn't to measure the outer court as that was where the Gentiles tread . . .the outer court in the tabernacle is the introductory level of our salvation. It's the elementary stage. Altar of sacrifice and the laver are the only two elements in the outer court. One is indicating salvation, the water is indicating baptisms.
It's connected to when Jesus stated that many will call him Lord, but he'll still say "depart from me you WORKERS of iniquity . . .I never KNEW you". This whole thing as far as God is concerned, has always been geared toward intimacy. If there's no intimacy, there's no authority. The same also is with the passage to those who have the power to loose and to bind . . .it's to those who the Father is "revealing" truth to because they have an intimate relationship with the Son.
So . . .the veil ripped at the death of Jesus . .why? Because "up to" that point, the holy place, the inner court . .not the holy of holies, but the place where the candlestick stood, the altar of incense, the table of shewbread . ."that" place is all about labor and religious activity. It was required in the Old Testament, but you still couldn't enter into the place of intimacy unless one, you were "the" high priest, which there was to be only one. and two, you could only go in there once a year . .and even "then" they were terrified that if their sacrifice was rejected, that God would kill them on the spot.
But when Jesus "became" the sacrifice, all that ministry activity transformed as the veil was torn . .not so God could get out, but so man could get in. And NOW it "is" all one room because in his intimacy, all that activity has been fulfilled so that even though we are still involved in ministries, it's not to be from a perspective of labor/slavery but it's to be because of intimacy with the Father, the ministries we're invovled in are a result of that intimacy and we do them "in his Rest" rather than through our labor. Huge difference because if it's through our labor, it will absoluelty burn us out. If it's done in his rest, it will invigorate us instead.
But the church today has done the same that the priests did when the veil was torn, they went on as if the veil was still in place. The religious activity is like show biz . . the show must go on . .even though the very Person the activity was to symbolize, showed up and fulfilled it, pressed down, shaken together and running over . . they still choose to emphasize how important it is to be involved in a ministry and study and knowledge . . . oh that the world may come and KNOW (intimately) that the Sabbath is come to man.
Amen Nathan,
Knowingly and willingly being involved in a ministry carrying a false message of death is an abomination.
Shame on them.
Quote from: Nathan on September 29, 2010, 05:39:47 PM
Back a few posts to Molly's question pertaining to the veils . . there were actually three. One led into the outer court, the second led into the temple itself, the third led into the holy of holies. It's all patterned after "God" who manifests in three major dimensions in the Father, Son and Spirit.
Inside the temple, there was a section called the "holy of holies," where the priest entered once a year, and where the ark was located, at least in the temple of Solomon; the holy of holies was separated from the other section of the temple by an elaborate curtain or veil, and this veil was rent when Jesus died; Hebrews suggests it represents Christ's flesh.
Hebrews 10:19-20
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; It only takes one curtain to separate an enclosed space into two sections; when the veil that separated the holy of holies from the other parts of the temple was rent, the way was
symbolically open for all Israel to enter in to the very presence of God.
Paul also talks about another barrier, the "wall of partition," that kept Gentiles or unclean folk from entering the inner courts and the temple itself, being broken down; this concept symbolically showed that the Gentiles who believed in Christ were now allowed to enter into the areas of the temple that were previously only permitted to those who were circumcised in the flesh; they were
circumcised in the heart, and did not require the outward fleshly rite of circumcision to become Abraham's children and heirs of the promises, like Isaac.
The wall of partition was not a curtain or a veil, but a low wall, presumably having one or more gates, which may have been guarded or monitored. Certainly there were signs posted warning Gentiles against entering.
So, the temple had a veil, and a wall of partition, which created three areas; (1) the outer court where Gentiles were permitted to enter, (2) the temple proper and inner courts where Israelites only could enter, and (3) the holy of holies that was behind the veil, where only the high priest could go.
If you have some scriptures to defend your idea that there were "three veils," I would be interested in seeing the evidence for it. Also, your suggestion about such veils representing three "dimensions," i.e., Father, Son and Spirit, seems alien to the OT, IMO.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Outer Court, Inner Court, Holy of Holies
Faith Hope and Love
And the greatest of these??? love/holy of holies . . .intimacy.
Quote from: Doug on September 29, 2010, 08:03:39 PM
Quote from: Nathan on September 29, 2010, 05:39:47 PM
Back a few posts to Molly's question pertaining to the veils . . there were actually three. One led into the outer court, the second led into the temple itself, the third led into the holy of holies. It's all patterned after "God" who manifests in three major dimensions in the Father, Son and Spirit.
Inside the temple, there was a section called the "holy of holies," where the priest entered once a year, and where the ark was located, at least in the temple of Solomon; the holy of holies was separated from the other section of the temple by an elaborate curtain or veil, and this veil was rent when Jesus died; Hebrews suggests it represents Christ's flesh.
Hebrews 10:19-20
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
It only takes one curtain to separate an enclosed space into two sections; when the veil that separated the holy of holies from the other parts of the temple was rent, the way was symbolically open for all Israel to enter in to the very presence of God.
Paul also talks about another barrier, the "wall of partition," that kept Gentiles or unclean folk from entering the inner courts and the temple itself, being broken down; this concept symbolically showed that the Gentiles who believed in Christ were now allowed to enter into the areas of the temple that were previously only permitted to those who were circumcised in the flesh; they were circumcised in the heart, and did not require the outward fleshly rite of circumcision to become Abraham's children and heirs of the promises, like Isaac.
The wall of partition was not a curtain or a veil, but a low wall, presumably having one or more gates, which may have been guarded or monitored. Certainly there were signs posted warning Gentiles against entering.
So, the temple had a veil, and a wall of partition, which created three areas; (1) the outer court where Gentiles were permitted to enter, (2) the temple proper and inner courts where Israelites only could enter, and (3) the holy of holies that was behind the veil, where only the high priest could go.
If you have some scriptures to defend your idea that there were "three veils," I would be interested in seeing the evidence for it. Also, your suggestion about such veils representing three "dimensions," i.e., Father, Son and Spirit, seems alien to the OT, IMO.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Sorry, I don't use Scripture as a defense of anything. It's what I see because of where I am, nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2010, 04:40:10 PM
:cloud9: Sounds familiar doesn't it, since we're basically a tent covered with skin and cloth.
Which makes me think even more that the skins God covered Adam with, was this same temporary dwelling place we're walking around in, a tent of flesh. Blessings.....
He hedged us in.
A tent within a tent.
A garden within a garden.
A Chariot of Fire.
Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2010, 04:40:10 PM
:cloud9: Sounds familiar doesn't it, since we're basically a tent covered with skin and cloth.
Which makes me think even more that the skins God covered Adam with, was this same temporary dwelling place we're walking around in, a tent of flesh. Blessings.....
Don't know for sure how I missed this one Card . . .but thank you for posting this. You're the only other person I know of that has seen this as well. It's always been "assumed" that it was the animal skins that apparently God sacrificed . . .to himself? On behalf of Adam and Eve's sin. It was supposedly to replace their attempt to cover themselves with fig leaves.
But I beleive it had to do with them leaving a spiritual realm and passing into a natural one. Man has had to live in the disorder of Adam ever since. But only according to our flesh. When we walk in the spirit, we can return back to the garden, the spirit of Eden. Even though our bodies are conformed to the laws of the natural realm . .we're born, we live, we die . . .all the process of life in the natural. Death rules this realm, but Life rules the spirit realm. We can walk in the life of his Light while still passing through this realm of death . . .yea tho I walk through the shadow of death . . .the shadow of death is simply my experiences through life in this realm . . .I will fear no evil for you are with me in this realm of death yet I walk in resurrection.
Yes and amen.
:2c: When death severed Adam the effect was like unplugging my laptop. The little green light in the power reservoir stays on for awhile but eventually it goes out. When someone reconnects to God through Christ the lil green light comes back on, the severing undone, the breach repaired, the power restored. When death is swallowed up by immortality the body will be spiritual- Paul says it is sown natural...it is raised spiritual. John says we know not yet what we shall be, but we know that we shall be like Him. Jesus testified that He was not only spirit- saying that " a spirit has not flesh and bones as you now see I do". He ate some fish, and He passed through a wall.
Maybe the fish slid down the wall if it was still in His hand when He left the room :icon_jokercolor:.
At any rate- there are so many things we see through a glass darkly, but the resurrection of the body is like a time marker on the completion of the pledge on our sonship inheritance. Even as Jesus was "declared a son by resurrection from the dead" so also we will be declared sons, by the redemption of our bodies. What we have now is the Spirit- the down payment guaranteeing the purchased possession.
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge/earnest of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:13-14)
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
(Rom 1:4)
Rom 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
(2Co 5:1-5)
Quote from: Nathan on October 04, 2010, 08:28:33 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2010, 04:40:10 PM
:cloud9: Sounds familiar doesn't it, since we're basically a tent covered with skin and cloth.
Which makes me think even more that the skins God covered Adam with, was this same temporary dwelling place we're walking around in, a tent of flesh. Blessings.....
Don't know for sure how I missed this one Card . . .but thank you for posting this. You're the only other person I know of that has seen this as well. It's always been "assumed" that it was the animal skins that apparently God sacrificed . . .to himself? On behalf of Adam and Eve's sin. It was supposedly to replace their attempt to cover themselves with fig leaves.
But I beleive it had to do with them leaving a spiritual realm and passing into a natural one. Man has had to live in the disorder of Adam ever since. But only according to our flesh. When we walk in the spirit, we can return back to the garden, the spirit of Eden. Even though our bodies are conformed to the laws of the natural realm . .we're born, we live, we die . . .all the process of life in the natural. Death rules this realm, but Life rules the spirit realm. We can walk in the life of his Light while still passing through this realm of death . . .yea tho I walk through the shadow of death . . .the shadow of death is simply my experiences through life in this realm . . .I will fear no evil for you are with me in this realm of death yet I walk in resurrection.
Yes and amen.
" You're the only other person I know of that has seen this as well."
Ummmm... Nathan — are you sure you're not missing someone???
Oops . . .sorry, should have worded that one a little differently. :Oops: :punish: :doh:
Y'know,
There was a thread, or at least part of a thread, about this topic sometime ago.
I think the member CHB was in on it and we were far out numbered by those who think otherwise.
Most seem to think we're wearing lambskin, and in a Christ we are, but in the natural it's just Adam's thick hide that was made apparent.
p.s.
No apology necessary, I'm just teasing.
Even as anyone who believes Messiah passes from death into life; So also Adam passed from life into death- for death reigned from Adam to Christ. I have always though the flaming sword that guards the entrance to the garden (realm of life) is the sword that comes out of His mouth, living and active.... the flames that are in His eyes.... the fire that consumes the adversaries. If we are carnal we are "cast out" and are "dead even as we live". If we are spiritual "the veil is removed" and we "walk in the light as He is in the light and have koinonea(union/harmony/fellowship) together.
There is a verse somewhere something like "I will be a wall of fire surrounding Zion". Well, a wall of fire keeps the ones "inside" protected, yet they had to "pass through the fire" to get in.
As we "press on to know the Lord" and "press on towards the mark of the prize of the upward call of God in Christ" we go through the trials that are for the "purifying of our faith which is more precious than gold tried in the fire". We purchase of Him gold tried in the fire. We receive the "crown of life" and as overcomers, are re-admitted into the paradise of God.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
how much time do you think we have left?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJhaFzij7a8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJhaFzij7a8)
I think that God can do things according to his timing. E.g we are living in times of technological progress and this is becoming to hot to handle for sinfull man. So if you are worried we can in fact pray that God destroys technological progress, I belive God can do this as he also confused the people of babylon and stopped them from building a tower to heaven by confusing their language, so God can also confuse the mind of scientists to stop them from creating evil inventions. This will give us more time and for future generations to live in a free world and witness people to christ. :2c:
I just have two words for the temple rebuilders: pathological narcissism.
'I have always harboured an exaggerated view of my self-importance,' he wrote. 'To put it bluntly, I fancied myself as some kind of god or an economic reformer like Keynes, or, even better, like Einstein. My sense of reality was strong enough to make me realise that these expectations were excessive, and I kept them hidden as a guilty secret. This was a source of considerable unhappiness through much of my adult life. As I made my way in the world, reality came close enough to my fantasy to allow me to admit my secret, at least to myself. Needless to say, I feel much happier as a result.'"
--George Soros
:sigh: Looks like ole George certainly fits the two words....
"It is sort of a disease when you consider yourself some kind of God, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out."
--George Soros
Sorry I had to :hijacked: but something Nathan said in the first few posts really blessed me and put words on something I felt but was unable to explain, had to share.
Thank you Nathan!
QuoteTony, I read "portions" of the website . . .and the more I read, the more it felt like chains were being wrapped around me. I know that sounds like I'm over dramatizing it but there "is" this "binding" feeling when I read articles that want me to relive a part of my life that's in my past.
Nice discussion overall, keep it up guys.
:happygrin:
:cloud9: :hijacked: :laughing7: Not overdramatizing.....that's another hidden precept. Those bindings are soul ties trying to take ahold again for the purpose of pulling us back into the grave (flesh). Same as the bindings that were burned on the 3 Hebrew children when the true fire came on the scene. Same as Jacob (the flesh/heel catcher) taking hold of the last part of us as we ascend to walk in the Spirit in heavenly places. Same as the "goodly Babylonianish garment", that when you run it down, means, VINE, ie. something that chokes the life out of the good seed that was planted.
A friend and I were allowed to literally feel them "snap" off us one time when He was sending us somewhere against a lot of opposition from family members, ect. Blessings....
Same as the "grave cloth" that the disciples unwrapped from Lazarus when He was raised from the dead. :nod:
:cloud9: Amen Eaglesway, I just love it when you speak my language, LOL.... :icon_jokercolor: :thumbsup:
So much for those theologians accusing us of seeing spiritual symbolism where we should only understand with the flesh. :thumbdown:
Amen to both of you! :thumbsup:
I feel a snap every now and then.....sort of like your ears popping when you are going higher! :boydance:
:cloud9: And this, and many other reasons, is why we're called heretics :winkgrin: :laughing7: It's like we're living the opening of the original Star Trek, ie. going where no man has gone before (cept Christ) LOL Blessings....
Amen!
but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
(1Co 2:9-10)
ENGAGE!
I just went through another bees nest this week with an email loop that must have upwards of 30 or 40 people on it that are connected through a Wisconsin church and a various network of friends and relatives with people of that church . . .at any rate, I'd responded to something I saw in one of their daily Scripture verses they post to all on the list and that led to one of them asking me a question . .oh . .the subject was dealing with hell by the way . . .and the question was to have me explain the rich man and Lazarus passage . . yeah, I know, that one's been hit pretty hard on this forum . .but they still use it for their defense and doctrinal platform.
So I shared in my usual, short-version (as if) way and I'd made a comment pertaining to that particular story being more of what we'd consider a fable-type story than anything else (I think I actually heard that from here first). . .that must have hit a nerve because after that, emails started flying all over the place. I did, however, get a good number of emails of encouragment, but it all goes back to what you guys are sharing here about how people . .one . . .don't want to remove the grave clothes. And two, if someone does have them removed, they're quickly black-balled by those that are still bound by them. It seems to be a never-ending cycle.
It takes a brave man to Live...but any coward can die.
I'm with you Nathan but as we go from victory to victory, our spirit is uplifted to be abe to have part in the sufferings of Christ!
That's what I've been experiencing amidst all these theological discussions, it is easy to see who is confused about what they THINK they believe, while my mind is at peace being infused with life by the Spirit of Truth, it is really a blessing to have part in these persecutions.
On that note, a brother, in yet another discussion, quoted a verse which said that those preaching the truth were persecuted. I asked: are you persecuted Alex?
Because I am.
And I never was before.
You are a blessing Nathan, may God work more and more through you for His glory, shine like the sun my friend!