What about problem of evil?

[ScarletWren]

Very good firstborn.

There is a verse in the Bible that says something like: If God withdraws His spirit they all perish.
But I can't find it. So we know if God really "left the building" we would not be viewing this message right now but would all be dead.

I think that what Molly is saying (and I could be wrong) but what I think she is saying that since, to her, Jesus is God, and since Jesus left for that "far away country" that therefore God left this earth.

But the question needs to be asked: Since Jesus said He is not God nor the Father by means of saying this:

Joh 20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God"

in what sense is Jesus God when some verses ascribe this title to Him? It is in the sense of Jesus being the Subjector. When the Jews were about to stone Him for making himself God He replied to them: Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? " So Jesus was saying, look, I am a subjector just like you are subjectors.

So even though Jesus did ascend to heaven, we are still, as you rightly say: In Him (that is "in God") we live and move and have our being.

Sounds right to me, Tony.  And I'll give a second amen to Firstborn's post.

[Molly]

Yes, of course I believe Jesus is God.  God has many names in the Bible relating to his function in relationship to man.  The whole Bible is about God and man.  The whole New Testament is about Jesus, Yah's Salvation, Y'shuah.

Zephaniah 3:17
The LORD your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing."


23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

--Mat 1

In this case given by Tony, Jesus cannot be touched by an [unclean] human because he is about to go into the Most Holy Place  as High Priest [himself] to present the unblemished sacrifice [himself] to God [himself].  That's the way I read it.  Jesus is the whole ball of wax.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

But, I don't want to hijack this thread.  That's another thread.  If you knew who Jesus the man was, you would know who you are.

Nevertheless, the question is does God cause the suffering in the world--and my answer is no, evil man causes it.  God doesn't steal, cheat, lie, and murder people by the millons--evil man does that.


Jeremiah 32:18
You show lovingkindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them—the Great, the Mighty God, whose name is the LORD of hosts.


"Mighty God"

'El Gibbôr

[firstborn888]

No matter how hard I try, I can't imagine realizing how great feeling good is until I've felt awful for a time. 

I remember once being so sick for a couple of weeks and I finally decided "If I could just feel 'normal' again I will never complain about anything ever again for the rest of my life".  :boyheart:

[Tony N]

Hi Molly,
If Jesus is God, then Who sent Him into the world to save sinners?

If Jesus is God (in the absolute kind of way . . . the invisible Deity which fills heaven and earth) how was it that Jesus, while He was on earth taught His disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven" if God and the Father were on the earth teaching the disciples to pray?

If Jesus is God, Who was that in heaven speaking down to earth saying: "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased!"?

If Jesus is God, what do you make of these verses:

46  Now about the ninth hour Jesus exclaims with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi! Eloi! Lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God! My God ! Why didst Thou forsake Me?"

Mark 15:34  And at the ninth hour Jesus implores with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi! Eloi! Lema sabachthani?" which is, being construed, " My   God! My God ! Why didst Thou forsake Me?"

If Jesus was God why didn't He say "Myself! Myself! Why didst I forsake Myself?


Jesus said:
"Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to  My  Father. Now go to  My  brethren, and say to them that I said, `Lo! I am ascending to  My  Father and your Father, and  My God and your God .'"

Yep, that's right. You heard it firsthand right from the Saviour's mouth. He has a God and is going to that God. And He is not their God but is going to their God.

John 1:18  God  no one has ever seen. The only-begotten  God , Who is in the bosom  of  the Father, He unfolds Him

Interesting how that they saw Christ. If Christ were THAT God then John could not write that no one has seen God since they saw Christ. That is why God needed someone to unfold Him who is invisible.


Rom.1:8  "First, indeed, I am thanking My God  through Jesus Christ"

See there? Paul's God was not Jesus Christ. He was thanking his God THROUGH Jesus Christ.

1Cor.1:4  I am thanking my  God  always concerning you over the grace  of   God  which is being given you in Christ Jesus,  5  for in everything are you enriched in Him, in all expression and all knowledge,  6  according as the testimony  of  Christ was confirmed among you,  7  so that you are not deficient in any grace, awaiting the unveiling  of  our Lord Jesus Christ,  8  Who will be confirming you also until the consummation, unimpeachable in the day  of our Lord Jesus Christ.  9  Faithful is  God , through Whom you were called into the fellowship  of  His Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Here again Paul is thanking God Who is not Jesus Christ and shows a distinction between the two.


2Cor.1:3 "Blessed is the God...of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of pities"

Yep, that's right, Jesus has a God. Do you believe it? Or can you just hurl insults?


Eph 1:3 "Blessed be the God...of  our Lord Jesus Christ"

Did you see that? Jesus has a God.


Eph 1:16 "...making mention in my prayers  17  that the  God   of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father  of  glory"

Got goose bumps now? Yep, Jesus has a God.


1Tim.2:5  For there is one  God , and one Mediator  of   God  and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,  6  Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all"

Wow! talk about a Nicene Creed buster! Not Three Gods, not two Gods, not three in one God but One God AND one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus.

Col1:3  "We are thanking the  God  and Father  of  our Lord Jesus Christ, always praying concerning you,

Rev 3:2  Become watchful, and establish the rest who were about to be dying; for I have not found your acts completed in the sight of My God.

Yep that is right, Jesus has a God. Says so right there.

Rev.3:12  "`"The one who is conquering, him will I [Jesus] be making a pillar in the temple of  My   God , and he may be coming out nevermore, and I will be writing on him the name of  My   God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which is descending out of heaven from My God, and  My  new name.  13  "`"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias."'

That's right...Jesus has a God.

Remember, Molly, if there are Scriptures which contradict these scriptures then both sets of Scriptures are wrong. The question to ask is: In what sense can Jesus carry the title "God"?

But since we have the definitive verses which show Jesus has a God, Jesus therefore cannot be THAT God. Right?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Emmm... I dunno.

Kind of hard to respond without knowing that.

[Molly]

But since we have the definitive verses which show Jesus has a God, Jesus therefore cannot be THAT God. Right?

It's hopefully being made clear to you that God is not a man.  God is Spirit.  Lest you are tempted to start worshipping your next door neighbor or your President or some rock star...

As for Y'shuah--we have a special case--the unique Son of God--



Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.



"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2Peter 3:18



To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12

...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:1



...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10

..a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11



I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24

..by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16

All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3



I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17



[T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3

"..who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5



... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. --Matthew 4:10

And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6



"But unto the SON he saith, 'Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom'...And, 'Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.'" -- Hebrews 1:8, 10

[WhiteWings]

It's hopefully being made clear to you that God is not a man.  God is Spirit. 

Isn't being one of the pleasures of being God that you can be everything you wish to be?

[Nathan]

What if God is like man . . .or man is like God . . .I am a Spirit (God) that has a soul (Holy Spirit/convictions) that lives in a body (Christ manifested).

When Christ manifested in the flesh, our limited little minds picture him "leaving" one place to show up in another.  But how big is God?  What if the entire creation . .all galaxies are "in" God?  Christ could manifest as the Son in the flesh, without ever really leaving God as he is still in him.  Can your soul be separated from your body?  Can any one part of you be removed from you?  No.  Not without inflicting death.

Just as you can't remove any part of you to create another entity of "you". . .you can't separate Christ from the Father . . .they are one in Spirit, beit separate in dimension.

Seems to be where I am with it today.

[Molly]

What if God is like man . . .or man is like God . . .I am a Spirit (God) that has a soul (Holy Spirit/convictions) that lives in a body (Christ manifested).

When Christ manifested in the flesh, our limited little minds picture him "leaving" one place to show up in another.  But how big is God?  What if the entire creation . .all galaxies are "in" God?  Christ could manifest as the Son in the flesh, without ever really leaving God as he is still in him.  Can your soul be separated from your body?  Can any one part of you be removed from you?  No.  Not without inflicting death.

Just as you can't remove any part of you to create another entity of "you". . .you can't separate Christ from the Father . . .they are one in Spirit, beit separate in dimension.

Seems to be where I am with it today.

Help me with this.  I am seeing another dimension of God these days, in the relationship between men.  He stands in the midst--whenever two or more of you are gathered in my name, I am there--He is there in the transaction between two or more of his own--

If man removes him from the transaction--the whole thing collapses--as we are seeing in the world today..We are in such trouble...


29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

--Acts 17

[Tony N]

Molly, where was God when Jesus said while he was on the earth:

"I am ascending to my God and your God and my Father and your Father" ?

If Jesus is God, how could He ascend to where God was in heaven?

If Jesus is not the disciple's God then how can Jesus be God?
If Jesus is not the disciple's Father, then how can Jesus be the disciple's Father?

[Molly]

Molly, where was God when Jesus said while he was on the earth:

"I am ascending to my God and your God and my Father and your Father" ?

If Jesus is God, how could He ascend to where God was in heaven?

If Jesus is not the disciple's God then how can Jesus be God?
If Jesus is not the disciple's Father, then how can Jesus be the disciple's Father?

Those are questions I asked myself when I was eight years old.

Who was Jesus praying to?  I asked myself.




5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.




--Phil 2



"in fashion" [as a man]

G4976
σχῆμα
schēma
skhay'-mah
From the alternate of G2192; a figure (as a mode or circumstance), that is, (by implication) external condition: - fashion.



Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

[Nathan]

Let me ask you this . . .who are you speaking to when you're talking to yourself?  How many conversations are occuring inside your head?  who's talking to whom?

When one is ascended, in is simply in a realm "higher than" another.  It's not by a measure of distance, but by dimension.  They are three, yes, but if you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father . . .it's a spiritual mystery that goes beyond the boundaries of the mind's ability to fully understand.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Remember, Molly, if there are Scriptures which contradict these scriptures then both sets of `Scriptures are wrong. The question to ask is: In what sense can Jesus carry the title "God"?

But since we have the definitive verses which show Jesus has a God, Jesus therefore cannot be THAT God. Right?

Jn 10:30 I and the Father, We are one.

1C 8:5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords,

1C 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we into Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.


Key words  "out of Whom"  "through Whom"


Phl 2:6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
Phl 2:7 but nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,

We must see the order and purpose that scripture explains.

Separate but one at the same time, ever expanding, never truly apart, we aren't either.

Ps 82:6 I Myself have said: you are elohim, And sons of the Supreme are all of you.

Jn 10:34 Jesus answered them,  "Is it not written in your law, that  `I say you are gods'?

[Molly]

"... feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with his OWN BLOOD."


--Acts 20:28

[Tony N]

Molly, where was God when Jesus said while he was on the earth:

"I am ascending to my God and your God and my Father and your Father" ?

If Jesus is God, how could He ascend to where God was in heaven?

If Jesus is not the disciple's God then how can Jesus be God?
If Jesus is not the disciple's Father, then how can Jesus be the disciple's Father?

From: http://www.tommybertoli.com/Trinity-Study.html

The Deity of Jesus Christ in the New Testament
         
1. The prologue of John (1:1-18)
               a. The Word is eternal; v.1 (co-eternal with God). The tense of the verb "was" expresses continuous action in the past. This indicates that the Word was in existence, not came into existence. The text is implying no matter how far one goes back in time, (In the beginning) the Word always existed at that particular time.
"When all things began, the Word already was" (New English Translation)

Tony's reply:
The first red flag is: "The Word is eternal; v.1 (co-eternal with God)." The Bible never says God is eternal. The Bible never says the Word is eternal. This is just Platonistic theology.


 

b. The Word existed in a relationship with God in the beginning; v.1. The preposition "with" emphasizes a personal relationship (eternal fellowship) existing between two persons. The Greek word with (pros) is translated "face to face" in 1Cor.13:12

Tony's reply: Again, the Bible knows no such Platonistic idea as "eternal fellowship" and "two persons." God and the holy spirit are never said to be "persons."

"Jesus Christ did not at some point in time come into existence or begin a relationship with the Father. In eternity past the Father (God) and the Son (the Word) have always been in a loving communion with each other.

Tony's reply:
Again, more Platonistic theology. For instance, an easy way to disprove that the Son was co-eternal in the past is the very term "Son." If Jesus, as the Son was co-eternal then He could never have become a Son and God could never have fathered the Son since, according to the Platonistic idea, they were both "co-eternal".


   

c. The Word was God; v.1 (co-equal with God). The absent of the article "the" before God, is purposely left out by John to maintain a distinction between the Word and God. John is not trying to prove that the Word is God but that the Word is equal to God but apart from being God the Father in this
13
________________________________________
verse. The Word as a distinct person is God as to His nature but apart from the Father.
Both Father and Son are God, yet there are not two Gods." The Son is co-eternal, co-equal, and consubstantial (same essence) with the Father.

Tony's reply:
Again, just more non-Scriptural platonistic terminology such as "co-eternal". And there is nothing in the Bible about "consubstantial." Whenever someone has to make up a term not found in the Bible it should be suspect and it usually hides more than it reveals.

If Jesus as the Son is co-eternal then when did His Sonship begin? The very term "son" carries with it the idea of "beginning." Otherwise, if the son is co-eternal with the father how could he begin being a son? And the very second the son was begotten was the very second God became Father. Otherwise, He could not carry the title "Father" if the Son is co-eternal. In other words, He could never beget the Son if the Son always was a Son. Get it?

(6) Jesus Christ, God the Son, has made the Father known, who no one has ever seen (vs.18)
Jesus Christ is God in Human flesh, the eternal Creator of all things, "the one and only Son" (only begotten) who has made known to us God the Father.
The passage above (the prologue of John), if interpreted apart from the Trinitarian doctrine (the Triune God), would make absolutely no sense unless we subscribe to polytheism

Tony's reply: The Bible knows no such term as "God the Son." It is always "Son of God." The Bible knows no such moster as "the Triune God" either.
As to everything else the writer wrote I will take Jesus' own words:

"I am ascending to My God and your God and My Father and your Father."

In other words Jesus is telling the disciples "I am not your God and I am not your Father." I am going to where your God is and where your Father is.

[Tony N]

Hi Molly,
If Jesus is God, then Who sent Him into the world to save sinners?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with, God [YHVH] and the Word was God [YHVH].
John 1:1

Sorry Brian but that does not answer my question.
Joh 3:17 For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."

God dispatched His Son into the world so that the world would be saved through him.
John 3:17 does not say that "God sent Himself into the world."

While Jesus was on the earth He heard God's voice above coming from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus is God, was He the greatest ventriloquist ever?

While Jesus was on earth he taught His disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in Heaven." He did not teach them to pray "Your Father which is right in front of you."

[Nathan]

Tony, "If" Jesus is a Son as your mind sees a son to be, when did Jesus then "become" this son?

[Tony N]

Tony, "If" Jesus is a Son as your mind sees a son to be, when did Jesus then "become" this son?

Good question!
Since God sent His Son into the world, I believe Jesus was His Son before He sent Him into the world.

The Bible does not say exactly when Jesus became His son, but it had to be before all in the heavens and on the earth was created.

One thing is for certain though, the Bible never says that God and His Son are co-eternal or of the same substance or any such Church ideas from Rome.

[Tony N]

Molly, where was God when Jesus said while he was on the earth:

"I am ascending to my God and your God and my Father and your Father" ?

If Jesus is God, how could He ascend to where God was in heaven?

If Jesus is not the disciple's God then how can Jesus be God?
If Jesus is not the disciple's Father, then how can Jesus be the disciple's Father?

From: http://www.tommybertoli.com/Trinity-Study.html

The Deity of Jesus Christ in the New Testament
         
1. The prologue of John (1:1-18)
               a. The Word is eternal; v.1 (co-eternal with God). The tense of the verb "was" expresses continuous action in the past. This indicates that the Word was in existence, not came into existence. The text is implying no matter how far one goes back in time, (In the beginning) the Word always existed at that particular time.
"When all things began, the Word already was" (New English Translation)

Tony's reply:
The first red flag is: "The Word is eternal; v.1 (co-eternal with God)." The Bible never says God is eternal. The Bible never says the Word is eternal. This is just Platonistic theology.

A habitation [is] the eternal God, And beneath [are] arms age-during. And He casteth out from thy presence the enemy, and saith, `Destroy!'
Deuteronomy 33:27 YLT

For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable; Romans 1:20 YLT

Note These are the only two verses in the Young's Literal translation containing the word "eternal".

I'll get to the rest tomorrow. Bedtime now

"the habitation of Elohim aforetime. And beneath are the arms eonian. He shall drive out the enemy from your presence and shall say:Exterminate him! (Dt. 33:27) (Concordant Version)

Rom 1:20 For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless, (Concordant Literal).

In Dt. 33:27 aforetime is strongs 6924 qedem and has nothing to do with eternity. It is often translated almost always as "east" and "eastward", once or twice as "ancient",  once "of old", but once "eternal" in Dt.33:27 in the King James. Also "olam" is used where the CLNT has eonian. Olam is never used to mean "eternal".

Concerning Aidios:

[H]aides is a noun and names the UN-PERCEIVED. Aidios is an adjective and describes what is UN-PERCEIVED. It has an exact equivalent in our word imperceptible.

     Aidios is usually derived from aei, always, just like aionios. This word comes from two elements a, un- and ei, if, and means UN-IF, ever, that is, without question (not eternally). Pilate had ever aei granted a prisoner to the Jews at the Passover. He surely did not do this in eternity past or future (Mark 15:8). This is the word which has been the innocent cause of untold error. Because it is the basis of aion, EVER-BEING, men have given the word the idea of endlessness. It simply means that which exists without question. (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.

From Scarlett's translation notes we have this:

<center>AIDIOS IN JUDE</CENTER>

"I would therefore remind you, who once knew this, that the Lord, after saving his people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those who did not believe. 6 and he hath reserved in unseen chains, under darkness, against the judgment of the great day, those angels who did not keep their proper abode: 7 even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the circumjacent cities with them giving themselves up to lewdness, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of aeonian fire."

"Most Lexicon-writers derive the word aidios from aei, ever, or always: but it may have the same etemology as hades, which they derive from a negative, and idein, to see; and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or unknown. In Rom.1:20 where it is applied to the power of the Deity, it means unknown; becuase we see or know only a very small part of God's power. the word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks: thus Thucydides has this phrase&#150;othen aidion misboqboran uparchein, from whence he expected a perpetual salary." But this could be only a salary during his life: therefore the word here in Thucydides means a period unknown; though it will certainly end."
Taken from "A  Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek" by Nathaniel Scarlett 1798.

[Nathan]

Tony, "If" Jesus is a Son as your mind sees a son to be, when did Jesus then "become" this son?

Good question!
Since God sent His Son into the world, I believe Jesus was His Son before He sent Him into the world.

The Bible does not say exactly when Jesus became His son, but it had to be before all in the heavens and on the earth was created.

One thing is for certain though, the Bible never says that God and His Son are co-eternal or of the same substance or any such Church ideas from Rome.

I still see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as "one".  You've not really put to rest the passage that states if we've seen the Son, we've seen the Father, and all of the passages that Jesus refers to himself and the Father being "one".  For me, it's one body.  Christ is the extension of God, just like my hand is the extension of my body.  I send my hand to do a task, God sent Christ to do a task.  When it's finished, my hand returns to my body . . .Just as Christ returns to the body of the Father . . .and when we come to Christ, we become a part of that same body as we are all living stones and Christ is the cornerstone, the foundation of the body of the Father.

Many times Jesus refers to this oneness, one of the more predominant places is in his prayer to the Father in John 17.  I'd put the whole chapter in, but I don't want to lose the point on this, so I'm honing in on just those that refer to the oneness of the God-head.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them

15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil

I wanted to throw this one in here because for me, it would appear that those who believe in the rapture are actually believing against the very thing Jesus was praying.  His desire is not that we are to find an escape route out of this decaying life, but that we introduce life rather than be infuenced by death.

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.  22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

This was already done before the foundation of the world.  What we saw 2,000 years ago is simply the completion in the physical realm of what was already accomplished in the spiritual.  This oneness is the same thing.  It's a spiritual mystery.  You can't use natural reasoning to explain and separate God for Christ or Christ from God . .they are one.  It seems to revert back to an interesting question posed elsewhere . . .which do we want?  Are we willing to consider our thinking could be skewed and in faith, receive the truth?  Or are we just accepting the dogma?

The spiritual experiences are not happening so the natural reasoning can understand.  It's the natural experiences that are used of God to explain spiritual realities to the "heart" (not head) of man.

It's just as it was with me and UR as with some others I've noticed by their comments.  My heart already knew the UR understanding to be true, but my head had never heard of it before.  My head didn't come into it until I came into this forum and learned there is a name for what my heart had already led me into.  And . . . I'm learning that there is more than just one route to enter into this understanding.  Mine was by way of patterns in Revelation.  Others came by literal applications . . .and both end up in truth. 

[Tony N]

Hi Nathan,
Since Jesus said he is not the disciple's God nor the disciple's Father when he stated he was ascending to their God and their Father and to his God and his Father, in what way are we to take the passage in which he truthfully states that he and the Father are one?

We must also ask, in what way are the disciples to be one "according as We are One"?
Joh 17:20-26  Yet not concerning these only am I asking, but also concerning those who are believing in Me through their word,  (21)  that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me."  (22)  And I have given them the glory which Thou has given Me, that they may be one, according as We are One,  (23)  I in them and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in one, and that the world may know that Thou dost commission Me and dost love them according as Thou dost love Me."  (24)  Father, those whom Thou hast given Me, I will that, where I am, they also may be with Me, that they may be beholding My glory which Thou has given Me, for Thou lovest Me before the disruption of the world."  (25)  Just Father, the world, also, knew Thee not, yet I knew Thee. And these know that Thou dost commission Me."  (26)  And I make known to them Thy name, and I shall make it known, that the love with which Thou lovest Me may be in them, and I in them."

The oneness of the disciples is to be like the oneness of the Father and the Son. It does not mean that the disciples become the Father and become "G-O-D". Peter and the eleven are not GOD now. Jesus is not G-O-D in the absolute sense of the word but He reveals God to us by His words and actions.

Yes Jesus was "out of the Father" and he is the only way to the Father.

When Jesus said: "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" He said this in the sense that the disciples saw the attributes of the Father. Jesus could not literally be the Father for if he was he could not be the son of God.

When my dad was still alive I told him I finally figured out the verse: "The pure in heart shall see God." He replied "Oh?" and I answered that when I see him I see God. But did I mean by that that my dad is the invisible God which fills heaven and earth? No.

"FOR US there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (1 Cor.8:6).

It does not say: "For us there is one God, the Father and Jesus Christ." It states there is one God who is the source of all and one Lord who is the channel of all.

Of course there are verses which state Jesus is God. But in what sense? Since there is only one God and not two or three, how is it possible for Jesus to carry the title God? Moses was told by God that Moses would be God and Aaron his prophet when dealing with Pharaoh. Is Moses now part of a quadrinity? Moses was to be God to pharaoh in that he was to subject Pharaoh to what God wanted. In the Psalms it is written to the Jews that "I say ye are Gods." They carry the title "God" in the sense that they were to subject Israel to the law. They were arbiters. In the same sense Jesus carries the title "God" in that all mankind will be subjected to him (1 Cor.15:22-28). But God is the only one not subjected to Christ (1 Cor.15:27).

"I am ascending to my God and your God" Jesus said. My God and your God is above, not on the earth. I am going to where your God and my God is. If I were your God I would be ascending to myself.

[Molly]

"Hereby perceive we the love of GOD, because he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us...


--1 John 3:16

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,
Since Jesus said he is not the disciple's God nor the disciple's Father when he stated he was ascending to their God and their Father and to his God and his Father, in what way are we to take the passage in which he truthfully states that he and the Father are one?

We must also ask, in what way are the disciples to be one "according as We are One"?
Joh 17:20-26  Yet not concerning these only am I asking, but also concerning those who are believing in Me through their word,  (21)  that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me."  (22)  And I have given them the glory which Thou has given Me, that they may be one, according as We are One,  (23)  I in them and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in one, and that the world may know that Thou dost commission Me and dost love them according as Thou dost love Me."  (24)  Father, those whom Thou hast given Me, I will that, where I am, they also may be with Me, that they may be beholding My glory which Thou has given Me, for Thou lovest Me before the disruption of the world."  (25)  Just Father, the world, also, knew Thee not, yet I knew Thee. And these know that Thou dost commission Me."  (26)  And I make known to them Thy name, and I shall make it known, that the love with which Thou lovest Me may be in them, and I in them."

The oneness of the disciples is to be like the oneness of the Father and the Son. It does not mean that the disciples become the Father and become "G-O-D". Peter and the eleven are not GOD now. Jesus is not G-O-D in the absolute sense of the word but He reveals God to us by His words and actions.

Yes Jesus was "out of the Father" and he is the only way to the Father.

When Jesus said: "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" He said this in the sense that the disciples saw the attributes of the Father. Jesus could not literally be the Father for if he was he could not be the son of God.

When my dad was still alive I told him I finally figured out the verse: "The pure in heart shall see God." He replied "Oh?" and I answered that when I see him I see God. But did I mean by that that my dad is the invisible God which fills heaven and earth? No.

"FOR US there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (1 Cor.8:6).

It does not say: "For us there is one God, the Father and Jesus Christ." It states there is one God who is the source of all and one Lord who is the channel of all.

Of course there are verses which state Jesus is God. But in what sense? Since there is only one God and not two or three, how is it possible for Jesus to carry the title God? Moses was told by God that Moses would be God and Aaron his prophet when dealing with Pharaoh. Is Moses now part of a quadrinity? Moses was to be God to pharaoh in that he was to subject Pharaoh to what God wanted. In the Psalms it is written to the Jews that "I say ye are Gods." They carry the title "God" in the sense that they were to subject Israel to the law. They were arbiters. In the same sense Jesus carries the title "God" in that all mankind will be subjected to him (1 Cor.15:22-28). But God is the only one not subjected to Christ (1 Cor.15:27).

"I am ascending to my God and your God" Jesus said. My God and your God is above, not on the earth. I am going to where your God and my God is. If I were your God I would be ascending to myself.

But for me, you are still trying to break down a spiritual reality by way of natural means.  I am spirit . . .my soul is one with my spirit as they both live "in" one body . .but I am still three . .body, soul and spirit.

How can Jesus be a literal "son" to God?  Who is the Mother?  The Holy Ghost?  Literally, you can divide, but they just don't fit.  Spiritually, they were always one . . . and they all three converse one with another.  God speaks to us through the experience of 'faith' in the cross by way of revelation "in" the Spirit . . .all three manifest, and all three are one.

I'm cool with your point of view . . . I just see it a little different is all.

[Molly]

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."


--1 John 5:7

[Nathan]

The last verse quoted about "our Father which art in "heaven" . . ." Heaven, for me, is among us . . just in a different realm.  It's not far off in the outer galaxy somewhere . . .it "is" right here among and "in" us . . .just in the spirit . . .which is the natural, turned inside out.