What about problem of evil?

[Paul Hazelwood]

1Jn 5:6 This is He Who is coming through water and blood and spirit--Jesus Christ--not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood. And the spirit it is which is testifying, for the spirit is the truth,

1Jn 5:7 seeing that three there are that are testifying,

1Jn 5:8 the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing.

[Paul Hazelwood]

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."

--1 John 5:7

"Nowhere in Scripture does it say God is a "three headed monster!"
And yet there it is. An inarguable statement;  THESE THREE ARE ONE.

There are words added in some translations that are not in the manuscripts.  The added words are the bias that the Trinity theory is correct, not that scripture inarguably contain those words.

1 john 5:6

"This is the one coming thru water and blood Jesus annointed not in the water only but in the water and in the blood and the spirit is the one witnessing that the spirit is the truth"


1 john 5:7   the manuscripts only contain this phrase.

"seeing that" "They are" "the testifying"

1 john 5:8

"the spirit and the water and the blood and the three into the one are"

[Tony N]

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."


--1 John 5:7

Molly, 1 John 5:7 is totally bogus and not in any good Greek texts.

[Tony N]

Hi Molly,
If Jesus is God, then Who sent Him into the world to save sinners?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with, God [YHVH] and the Word was God [YHVH].
John 1:1

Sorry Brian but that does not answer my question.
Joh 3:17 For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."

God dispatched His Son into the world so that the world would be saved through him.
John 3:17 does not say that "God sent Himself into the world."

While Jesus was on the earth He heard God's voice above coming from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus is God, was He the greatest ventriloquist ever?

While Jesus was on earth he taught His disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in Heaven." He did not teach them to pray "Your Father which is right in front of you."

Well, I'd say you're not taking into consideration the role of the Son of Man.

Now tell me how John can say He was God.

How can Thomas can call Him "my Lord and my God."

How Paul can call Him "our great God and Savior"

Without bearing false witness and committing blasphemy?

How Tony, how?

Hi Brian,
This is simple really. Thomas was saying "My Lord and my subjector/placer."
Paul said "to us there is one God, the Father." So in what way are we to take "our great God and Saviour"? Jesus can carry the title God. Jesus is our great subjector and Lord.

Surely you would not want the Scriptures to contradict Scriptures would you?

Since Jesus said he was ascending to the disciple's God, he was surely saying that, in the absolute sense, "I am not your God. I am ascending to where your God is, in heaven. Not only that but I am ascending to your Father. I am not your Father. Your Father is in heaven, hallowed be His name!

God told Moses that he, Moses, is God to pharaoh and Aaron was his prophet. Was God raising up a false God to pharaoh?
So in the sense that God made Moses "God" or "Subjector" so did God make Jesus God or "Subjector" of the whole human race.

[Nathan]

 :bdh:

[Taffy]

:bdh:

That Poor Horse , Tis Dead Beat :icon_jokercolor:

[Pierac]

Now back to the topic...

I'm pulling this information from a thread, I started on another Forum...

I want to start a topic on EVIL! There seems to be quite a bit of variations of beliefs on this subject. I think it would be a good study to look into! What does Evil mean? How did it come about? Was evil created, or did it come about on it's own accord? Who and what is Satan? Did he fall like Adam or was he created the "adversary" from the very beginning? Or as some few might believe, is Satan actually just the fallen nature of man and not really a being at all?

These are tough questions for mature Christians! I'm not seeking opinions! My 7 year old has opinions! I'M LOOKING FOR SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM!

Like I said at the beginning of my "Trinity Talk" thread! No one wants to believe a lie. So be respectful. If you disagree with some one then explain yourself without getting emotional! Use scripture but at the same time explain why you believe the verse means what it says!

Now to the definitions! No two parties can discuss an issue unless they agree on the meaning of the words being discussed! So I feel at this time it's important to start with a universal understanding of the Hebrew and Greek words for EVIL...

Unless otherwise contested, shall we agree with these definitions?

First we will start with the Hebrew:

Strongs:      H7451

   רעה    רע
ra‛  râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]

Word Study:     H7451      רע     ra‛, ָרָעה
rā‛āh: An adjective meaning bad, evil. The basic meaning of this word displays ten or more various shades of the meaning of evil according to its contextual usage. It means bad in a moral and ethical sense and is used to describe, along with good, the entire spectrum of good and evil; hence, it depicts evil in an absolute, negative sense, as when it describes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen_2:9; Gen_3:5, Gen_3:22). It was necessary for a wise king to be able to discern the evil or the good in the actions of his people (Ecc_12:14); men and women are characterized as evil (1Sa_30:22; Est_7:6; Jer_2:33). The human heart is evil all day long (Gen_6:5) from childhood (Gen_8:21); yet the people of God are to purge evil from among them (Deu_17:7). The Lord is the final arbiter of whether something was good or evil; if something was evil in the eyes of the Lord, there is no further court of appeals (Deu_9:18; 1Ki_14:22). The day of the Lord's judgment is called an evil day, a day of reckoning and condemnation (Amo_6:3). Jacob would have undergone grave evil (i.e., pain, misery, and ultimate disaster) if he had lost Benjamin (Gen_44:34). The word can refer to circumstances as evil, as when the Israelite foremen were placed in a grave situation (Exo_5:19; 2Ki_14:10).

The word takes on the aspect of something disagreeable, unwholesome, or harmful. Jacob evaluated his life as evil and destructive (Gen_47:9; Num_20:5); and the Israelites considered the wilderness as a threatening, terrifying place. The Canaanite women were evil in the eyes of Isaac (i.e., displeasing [Gen_28:8]). The rabble's cry within Israel for meat was displeasing in the eyes of Moses (Num_11:10). This word describes the vicious animal that killed Joseph, so Jacob thought (Gen_37:33). The despondent countenances of persons can be described by this word; the baker's and the butler's faces were downcast because of their dreams (Gen_40:7). It can also describe one who is heavy in heart (Pro_25:20).

In a literal sense, the word depicts something that is of poor quality or even ugly in appearance. The weak, lean cows of Pharaoh's dream were decrepit, ugly-looking (Gen_41:3, Gen_41:20, Gen_41:27); poisonous drinking water was described as bad (2Ki_2:19; 2Ki_4:41). From these observations, it is clear that the word can be used to attribute a negative aspect to nearly anything.

Used as a noun, the word indicates realities that are inherently evil, wicked, or bad; the psalmist feared no evil (Psa_23:4). The noun also depicts people of wickedness, that is, wicked people. Aaron characterized the people of Israel as inherently wicked in order to clear himself (Exo_32:22). Calamities, failures, and miseries are all connotations of this word when it is used as a noun.


[COLOR="blue"]Now let's look at the Greek! [/COLOR]

Word Study
G2556

κακὸς
kakós; fem. kakḗ, neut. kakón, adj. Bad, worthless externally. Of a soldier, cowardly. In the NT evil, wicked, from the verb cházō or cházomai (n.f.), to give back, recede, retire, retreat in battle. One who is evil in himself and, as such, gets others in trouble.

(I)   In a moral sense meaning wicked, vicious, bad in heart, conduct, and character (Mat_21:41; Mat_24:48; Phi_3:2; Rev_2:2, impostors). Of things (Mar_7:21, evil thoughts; Rom_13:3, evil works; 1Co_15:33, evil conversations; Col_3:5; Sept.: Pro_6:18; Pro_15:3). In the neut. tó kakón, and pl., tá kaká, evil, evil things, wickedness, fault, crime (Mat_27:23; Mar_15:14; Luk_23:22; Joh_18:23; Act_23:9; Rom_1:30; Rom_2:9; Rom_3:8; Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21; Rom_9:11; Rom_13:4; Rom_16:19; 1Co_10:6; 2Co_5:10; 2Co_13:7; 1Ti_6:10; Heb_5:14; Jam_1:13; 1Pe_3:12; 3Jo_1:11; Sept.: Pro_3:7).

(II) [/b]Actively causing evil[/b], i.e., hurtful, harmful (Rom_14:20; Tit_1:12, "ravenous beasts" [a.t.]; Rev_16:2; Sept.: Pro_16:4; Amo_6:3). In the neut., to kakón, evil, i.e., cause or source of evil (Jam_3:8); evil done to anyone, harm, injury (Act_16:28; Act_28:5; Rom_12:17, Rom_12:21; Rom_13:10; 1Co_13:5; 1Th_5:15; 1Pe_3:9, 1Pe_3:11). In words, evil speaking (1Pe_3:10; Sept.: Mic_7:3). Pl., tá kaká, evils, i.e., troubles, afflictions (Luk_16:25; Act_9:13; 2Ti_4:14; Sept.: Gen_44:34; Gen_48:16; Isa_46:7; Jer_14:8).
Deriv.: ákakos (G172), one without evil, upright; anexíkakos (G420), without evil, longsuffering; ekkakéō or egkakéō (G1573), to treat badly; kakía (G2549), wickedness, trouble; kakopoiós (G2555), evildoer; kakoúrgos (G2557), one who works evil; kakouchéō (G2558), to suffer adversity; kakóō (G2559), to ill-treat; kakṓs (G2560), badly.

Syn.: ponērós (G4190), malicious which indicates willful harm to others, an element not necessarily found in kakós.; kakía (G2549), wickedness, iniquity, evil, affliction.; phaúlos (G5337), trivial, bad in the sense of being worthless; saprós (G4550), corrupt, rotten, unfit for use, putrid; phthartós (G5349), corruptible; átopos, amiss, out of place; áthesmos (G113), contrary to custom; ánomos (G459), lawless as a characterization of the person himself in regard to obedience to the law.

Ant.: agathós (G18), beneficial in addition to being good; kalós (G2570), that which is intrinsically good, beautiful; chrēstós (G5543), good, gracious, kind, smooth; asteíos (G791), urbane, fair.

Strongs
G2556
κακός
kakos
kak-os'
Apparently a primary word; worthless (intrinsically such; whereas G4190 properly refers to effects), that is, (subjectively) depraved, or (objectively) injurious: - bad, evil, harm, ill, noisome, wicked.

G2549
Strongs
κακία
kakia
kak-ee'-ah
From G2556; badness, that is, (subjectively) depravity, or (actively) malignity, or (passively) trouble: - evil, malice (-iousness), naughtiness, wickedness.

G2549
Word Study
κακία
kakía; gen. kakías, fem. noun from kakós (G2556), bad. Wickedness as an evil habit of the mind, while ponēría (G4189) is the active outcome of the same. Ponēría is malevolence, not only doing evil, but being evil.
(I)Evil in a moral sense meaning wickedness of heart, life, and character (Act_8:22; 1Co_14:20 [cf. Mat_18:3; Jam_1:21; 1Pe_2:16; Sept.: Exo_32:12; Isa_29:20]).

(II)In an act. sense, especially where joined with ponēría (G4189), malevolence, malice, (1Co_5:8), as if ponēría, the endeavor to do evil to others, emanates from being inherently evil (kakía). See Eph_4:31; Col_3:8; Tit_3:3; 1Pe_2:1; Sept.: Pro_1:16; Nah_3:19.

(III) Evil, i.e., trouble, affliction (Mat_6:34; Sept.: Ecc_7:4).
Syn.: anomía (G458), lawlessness; hamartía (G266), sin; adikía (G93), unrighteousness; paranomía (G3892), transgression; húbris (G5196), insult, harm, reproach; phaúlon, the neut. of phaúlos (G5337) used as a noun, that which is trivial; adíkēma (G92), injustice, iniquity.

G4190
Strongs
πονηρός
ponēros
pon-ay-ros'

From a derivative of G4192; hurtful, that is, evil (properly in effect or influence, and thus differing from G2556, which refers rather to essential character, as well as from G4550, which indicates degeneracy from original virtue); figuratively calamitous; also (passively) ill, that is, diseased; but especially (morally) culpable, that is, derelict, vicious, facinorous; neuter (singular) mischief, malice, or (plural) guilt; masculine (singular) the devil, or (plural) sinners: - bad, evil, grievous, harm, lewd, malicious, wicked (-ness). See also G4191.

G4190
Word Study
πονηρός
ponērós; fem. ponērá, neut. ponērón, adj. from pónos (G4192), labor, sorrow, pain. Evil in a moral or spiritual sense, wicked, malicious, mischievous
.
(I) In an act. sense, evil which corrupts others, evil-disposed, malevolent, malignant, wicked.

(A) Of persons (Mat_5:45; Mat_7:11; Mat_12:34-35; Mat_13:49; Mat_18:32; Luk_6:35, Luk_6:45; Luk_11:13; Act_17:5; 2Th_3:2; Sept.: Est_7:6; Job_21:30). Pneúmata ponērá (pneúmata [G4151], spirits), evil spirits, malignant demons (Mat_12:45; Luk_7:21; Luk_8:2; Luk_11:26; Act_19:12-13, Act_19:15-16; Sept.: 1Sa_16:14 f.). With the def. art. ho ponērós, the evil one, Satan (Mat_13:19, Mat_13:38; Eph_6:16; 1Jo_2:13-14; 1Jo_3:12; 1Jo_5:18). See also Mat_5:37; Mat_6:13; Luk_11:4; Joh_17:15; 1Jo_5:19.
(B) Of things, such as the eye, an evil eye referring to envy (Mat_20:15; Mar_7:22); evil thoughts (1Ti_6:4; Jam_2:4). Particularly as causing pain or hurt, hurtful, with injurious words (Mat_5:11; Act_28:21; 3Jo_1:10; Sept.: Psa_64:6). Also painful, grievous (Rev_16:2; Sept.: Deu_28:35, Deu_28:59). The neut. with the def. art. tó ponērón, evil, evil intent, malice, wickedness (Mat_5:37, Mat_5:39). Also evil as inflicted, calamity, affliction.

(II) In the pass., evil, made evil, evil in nature or quality, bad, ill, vicious.
(A) Morally, of persons, meaning wicked, corrupt, an evildoer (1Co_5:13; 2Ti_3:13); an evil generation (Mat_12:39, Mat_12:45; Mat_16:4; Luk_11:29); evil age (Gal_1:4; Sept.: Deu_21:21; Isa_1:4; Isa_9:16); of a servant, remiss, slothful (Mat_25:26; Luk_19:22); of things, wicked, corrupt, as of works (Joh_3:19; Joh_7:7; Col_1:21; 2Ti_4:18; 1Jo_3:12; 2Jo_1:11); criminality (rhadioúrgēma [G4467]; Act_18:14; 1Th_5:22, "from every form of evil" [a.t.]; Heb_3:12; Heb_10:22; Jam_4:16; Sept.: Deu_17:7; 2Ki_17:13); of times, particularly as full of sorrow and affliction, evil, calamitous (Eph_5:16; Eph_6:13; Sept.: Gen_47:9; Psa_94:13). In the neut. with the def. art., tó ponērón, evil, wickedness, guilt (Luk_6:45; Rom_12:9; 1Jo_5:19). In the pl. tá ponērá, evil things, wicked deeds (Mar_7:23; Sept.: Deu_17:2; Jdg_2:11; Ecc_8:12); without the art. (Sept.: Psa_97:10; Hos_7:15).

(B) In a physical sense, as of external quality and condition, evil, bad, bad fruit (Mat_7:17-18). Of persons in reference to external state, dress (Mat_22:10, "bad and good," meaning high and low, rich and poor, a figure of speech indicating totality [merism]).
Deriv.: ponēría (G4189), evil, wickedness, maliciousness.
Syn.: kakós (G2556), bad character but not necessarily hurtful or malicious; phaúlos (G5337), slight, trivial, mean, bad, in the sense of being worthless, contemptible; kakoúrgos (G2557), an evil worker, malefactor; áthesmos (G113), lawless, contrary to custom; ánomos (G459), lawless; parabátēs (G3848), a transgressor; hamartōlós (G268), a sinner; ádikos (G94), unrighteous; kakopoiós (G2555), an evildoer; aschḗmōn (G809), uncomely; anáxios (G370), unworthy.
Ant.: agathós (G18), intrinsically good; kalós (G2570), practically good, for appearance or use; chrēstós (G5543), gentle, smooth, easy; agathopoiós (G17), a doer of good; aretḗ (G703), virtue; euschḗmōn (G2158), comely; áxios (G514), worthy.

Now that we have established the basics!

How did evil come into being?

Remember, be nice! As we are all seekers of the truth!

[Tony N]

But for me, you are still trying to break down a spiritual reality by way of natural means.  I am spirit . . .my soul is one with my spirit as they both live "in" one body . .but I am still three . .body, soul and spirit.

How can Jesus be a literal "son" to God?  Who is the Mother?  The Holy Ghost?  Literally, you can divide, but they just don't fit.  Spiritually, they were always one . . . and they all three converse one with another.  God speaks to us through the experience of 'faith' in the cross by way of revelation "in" the Spirit . . .all three manifest, and all three are one.

I'm cool with your point of view . . . I just see it a little different is all.

Hi Nathan,
I'm glad you are cool with my point of view.

Even though you are composed of body, soul and spirit, that does not mean that there are three distince beings which make up Nathan.

Besides, the holy spirit is not a distince, separate entity apart from God. It is God's spirit.

You asked "How can Jesus be a literal "son" to God?  Who is the Mother?  The Holy Ghost?" Good question!
There were sons of God before the world was created. Also, Adam is called a son of God yet he had no mother.

When God begot the Son He immediately became the Father. He begot Jesus without a mother just as He begot all the other sons of God as in Job's day:

(Job 1:6)  There was a day when the sons of God would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.

(Job 2:1)  The day came around again when the sons of God came to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst to station himself before Yahweh.

(Job 38:7)  When the stars of the morning jubilated together, And all the sons of God shouted with joy?

God could not eternally be the Father for the very terms "Father" and "Son" preclude eternalness from being inherrent in such terms. They actually show beginningness.

I am matching spiritual words with spiritual blessings (1 Cor.2:13).

[Pierac]

Again pulling from the other forum...

Yes, indeed. This is a very good verse to start with. However, many here would say this is a mis-translation! They would start to show our modern bibles have replaced the word "evil" with calamity or disaster as representing the true meaning.

NASB Isa 45:7  The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

NIV Isa 45:7  I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

ESV Isa 45:7  I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

CEV Isa 45:7  I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all of this.

Now how is a Christian to get at the truth? We have the majority of bibles before the 1960's that read evil, and almost all bibles after that time reading calamity, and or disaster! What's going on? One could come to the conclusion that men are trying to alter the scriptures to remove any association of evil from God Himself! However, it did not start in the 1960's!


(Coverdale 1535) Isa 45:7  It is I yt created the light and darcknes, I make peace and trouble: Yee euen I the LORDE do all these thinges.

(Bishops 1568) Isa 45:7  It is I that created light and darknesse, I make peace and trouble: yea euen I the Lorde do all these thinges.

To clarify both of these Bibles are a translation from the Latin Vulgate with the Coverdale also including German text.

Latin Vulgate Isa 45:7  formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec

Malum From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Malum in se (plural mala in se) is a Latin phrase meaning wrong or evil in itself. This concept is a part of the "value consensus model" explanation of the origins of the criminal law. The phrase is used to refer to conduct thought to be inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct. It is distinguished from malum prohibitum, which is wrong only because it is prohibited. For example, murder of human beings is universally agreed to be wrong by other human beings, regardless of whether a law exists or where the conduct occurs, and is thus recognizably malum in se. In contrast, consider driving laws. In the US, people drive on the right-hand side of the road. In the UK and other states of the Commonwealth, people drive on the left-hand side. This is an example of a malum prohibitum law because the act is not inherently bad, but is forbidden by policy, as set forth by the policy-makers of the jurisdiction. Malum prohibitum crimes are criminal not because they are inherently bad, but because the prohibited act is forbidden by the policy of the state. Crimes such as larceny, rape and murder are considered malum in se. This concept was used to develop the various common law crimes. [1]

So where did the translators of the Coverdale and Bishops get the idea of trouble? As it appears Malum has moral deeds associated with it? I then thought it best to look at the Septuagint, as this translations was done directly by the Jews' themselves. Who better to understand their own language. What Greek word did they use for the hebrew word ra?

LXX Isa 45:7 εγω  κατασκευασας ] φως  και  ποιησας  σκοτος  ο  ποιων  ειρηνην  και  κτιζων κακα [COLOR="SeaGreen"][SIZE="2"]2556[/SIZE][/COLOR] εγω  κυριος  ο  θεος  ο  ποιων  ταυτα  παντα

So we have the Greek word κακα 2556 in place of Ra.

Word Study
G2556

κακὸς
kakós; fem. kakḗ, neut. kakón, adj. Bad, worthless externally. Of a soldier, cowardly. In the NT evil, wicked, from the verb cházō or cházomai (n.f.), to give back, recede, retire, retreat in battle. One who is evil in himself and, as such, gets others in trouble.

(I) In a moral sense meaning wicked, vicious, bad in heart, conduct, and character (Mat_21:41; Mat_24:48; Phi_3:2; Rev_2:2, impostors). Of things (Mar_7:21, evil thoughts; Rom_13:3, evil works; 1Co_15:33, evil conversations; Col_3:5; Sept.: Pro_6:18; Pro_15:3). In the neut. tó kakón, and pl., tá kaká, evil, evil things, wickedness, fault, crime (Mat_27:23; Mar_15:14; Luk_23:22; Joh_18:23; Act_23:9; Rom_1:30; Rom_2:9; Rom_3:8; Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21; Rom_9:11; Rom_13:4; Rom_16:19; 1Co_10:6; 2Co_5:10; 2Co_13:7; 1Ti_6:10; Heb_5:14; Jam_1:13; 1Pe_3:12; 3Jo_1:11; Sept.: Pro_3:7).
(II) Actively causing evil, i.e., hurtful, harmful (Rom_14:20; Tit_1:12, "ravenous beasts" [a.t.]; Rev_16:2; Sept.: Pro_16:4; Amo_6:3). In the neut., to kakón, evil, i.e., cause or source of evil (Jam_3:8); evil done to anyone, harm, injury (Act_16:28; Act_28:5; Rom_12:17, Rom_12:21; Rom_13:10; 1Co_13:5; 1Th_5:15; 1Pe_3:9, 1Pe_3:11). In words, evil speaking (1Pe_3:10; Sept.: Mic_7:3). Pl., tá kaká, evils, i.e., troubles, afflictions (Luk_16:25; Act_9:13; 2Ti_4:14; Sept.: Gen_44:34; Gen_48:16; Isa_46:7; Jer_14:8).

We now have a slight problem arising. The Greek word in no way suggest "trouble' or clamity. In fact, the Hebrew already have a word for "calamity!"

Let's now look at the Jewish Publication Society Bible of 1917.
JPS Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

It would appear that men, some  in the past and definitely in modern times are trying to remove the word evil from our bible when it is associated at any time with God. This is what is making our study into evil much more difficult! Using the Septuagint as a guide, I would like to look at several O.T. verses associating evil with God. The LXX, does not uses the same greek word for evil every time. What does this mean?

So before we get into why evil exist, let's get a better picture of evil existing when associated with God. This should help us get a better understanding of how, when, and why, then hopefully what it means? As I'm learning right along with you, in this study. However, it does appear that the word evil in Isa 45;7 is used very much like the Hebrew word Ra when it is offered in the understanding of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. ( Gen 2:17 ) It is NOT the tree of the knowledge of Good and Calamity! This much is for sure!

[Tony N]

Now back to the topic...

Now that we have established the basics!

How did evil come into being?

God brought evil into being.

Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness,
Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim,
made all of these things."

[Pierac]

Lam 3:38  Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Here is another interesting verse.  The correct read here is also evil! However, one needs to put this verse in context! If you keep reading you will see the evil is a reward of the deeds of sin.

Lam 3:39  Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

I believe the Net Bible gives a good commentary on this verse!

Net Bible commentary: tn Heb  "concerning his punishment." The noun חֵטְא ((ח) khet') has a broad range of meanings: (1) "sin," (2) "guilt of sin" and (3) "punishment for sin," which fits the context of calamity as discipline and punishment for sin (e.g., Lev_19:17; Lev_20:20; Lev_22:9; Lev_24:15; Num_9:13; Num_18:22; Num_18:32; Isa_53:12; Eze_23:49).

The metonymical (cause-effect) relation between sin and punishment is clear in the expressions חֵטְא מִשְׁפַט־מָוֶת ((ח) khet' mishpatmavet, "sin deserving death penalty," Deu_21:22) and חֵטְא מָוֶת (khet' mavet, "sin unto death," Deu_22:26). The point of this verse is that the punishment of sin can sometimes lead to death; therefore, any one who is being punished by God for his sins, and yet lives, has little to complain about.

Paul

[Pierac]

Now back to the topic...

Now that we have established the basics!

How did evil come into being?

God brought evil into being.

Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness,
Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim,
made all of these things."

Keep reading Tony  :thumbsup:

[Pierac]

I ask myself how one book could create such a diversity of beliefs. The last I heard there are approximately 30 thousand different denominations of the church in the world today. How can this be? One book spinning off thousands of different beliefs? What's God doing? Why is this allowed? I believe the study of evil will offer some clues, maybe not any answers but surely more questions!

Let's continue...

KJV   Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

NASB Amo 3:6  If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?

Clark commentary:

Shall a trumpet be blown - The sign of alarm and invasion.

And the people not be afraid? - Not take the alarm, and provide for their defense and safety?

Shall there be evil in a city - Shall there be any public calamity on the wicked, that is not an effect of my displeasure? The word does not mean moral evil, but punishment for sin; calamities falling on the workers of iniquity. Natural evil is the punishment of moral evil: God sends the former when the latter is persisted in.

Let's look at this in practice.

Hab 1:6  "For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, That fierce and impetuous people Who march throughout the earth To seize dwelling places which are not theirs. 7  "They are dreaded and feared; Their justice and authority originate with themselves. 8  "Their horses are swifter than leopards And keener than wolves in the evening. Their horsemen come galloping, Their horsemen come from afar; They fly like an eagle swooping down to devour. 9  "All of them come for violence. Their horde of faces moves forward. They collect captives like sand. 10  "They mock at kings And rulers are a laughing matter to them. They laugh at every fortress And heap up rubble to capture it. 11  "Then they will sweep through like the wind and pass on. But they will be held guilty, They whose strength is their god."

Now look at why the prophet is so up set! God uses the "evil" Chaldeans to bring judgment.  Here's what he has to say to God.

Hab 1:13  Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they? 

Yes, the prophet is confused as to why God would use evil to destroy/punish a lesser evil. So make no mistake with Amos! When he writes: "shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? You better believe the people will not just experience calamity but evil greater than themselves!

So here we have again evil, but evil used in a judgment situation. Much like in Lam 3;38-39.

So far the focus is that God is using existing evil, but Himself not the cause of  it. This may very well be brought over into Isa 45:7. yet, it's a little more difficult because punishment of sins is not the focus here, but the power and might of God Himself! 

The point I want to make is that most of the verses speaking of God creating evil in some way can be shown to lead towards the judgment of sin itself. Yes, it may be more difficult in some verses but not completely outside the possibility. More of an idea of God using evil than creating it altogether. So this puts us back to square one. Did God create evil? If so, how and why?

HOWEVER, The book of Job offers many clues, I would say many more questions than actual answers! Any thoughts on Job?

Paul

[Molly]

Since Jesus said he was ascending to the disciple's God, he was surely saying that, in the absolute sense, "I am not your God. I am ascending to where your God is, in heaven. Not only that but I am ascending to your Father. I am not your Father. Your Father is in heaven, hallowed be His name!

No where in scripture does Jesus say, "I am not your God."

Not that Jesus in his human incarnation was our God in an absolute sense because he was also fully man.

But, he never stops anyone from worshipping him, as the angels do.

Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.


Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

[willieH]

Not one sparrow falls without your Father. In him we live and move and have our being, absolutely. God and creation cannot be separated as He actively sustains life and existence for all. The only separation is in our minds, not in spiritual reality. As we understand this so the world will transformed until the knowledge of glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

AMEN!   :boogie:

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)


PeacE...
...willieH   :ty:

[Pierac]

This is a much more difficult topic than many would agree upon!  A person on the other forum stated..."never was any function or purpose for evil, except to manifest itself and thereby stand to be eliminated by God."

I think this would go against what God has to say on this subject! Yes, I would agree on the understanding of the Spiritual realm, but just what is happening in this Spiritual realm? I believe the book of Job offers some insight in several different ways.

We all know the story so I will only cover specific details. First, let's look at Job, the man.

Job 1:1  There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.

We are told up front that Job was blameless, upright, and turned away evil. Yet, Job experienced severe evil at the hand of Satan. Why? Why did God do this to him? Yes, it was God that was the cause.

Job 1:8  The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9  Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?

Who brought up the topic of Job? Satan or God? Yes, it was God. Since you already know the story, you know that Job was a pawn in a conversation between Satan and God. So did Job suffered evil to prove a point for God? Did this happen to Job so God could be correct in His assessment? What did Satan say?

Job 1:11  But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your
face."  

Job 1:12  And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Now why did God put Job in Satan's hands? And not use His own?

Jam 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

It was because God could not! As shown in James 1:13. God could not tempt Job to curse Him! But Satan could!

Job knew very well what he was experiencing was evil and not some calamity!

Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

We would all agree that God does not use evil without purpose! So what was the purpose here with Job? Are we to be like Job when he says:

Job 13:15  Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

So what was the reason? Why did Job, an upright man, suffer evil at the hand of Satan?

So what is the purpose of evil for the Christian?  For we surely experience it!

Eph 6:12  For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We would all agree that we wrestle against spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places! But where did these forces come from?

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.

I thought Satan created evil? Yet, Col 1:16 is telling us all thrones or dominions or authorities were created by God! Let's see how evil is used against Christians.


Rev 2:10  'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

We are tested by it!


2Co 12:7  So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated.


CLV Ecc 1:13  I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

We are humbled by it!

Mat 5:44  "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"  22  Jesus *said to him, [COLOR="red"]"I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.[/COLOR]

Mat 5:39  "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40  [COLOR="red"]"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.[/COLOR]

We are brought into obedience by it!

Heb 5:8  Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

Jesus suffered much evil from the hands of men!

With the help of Christ in us we can overcome it!

1Jo 5:4  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Rev 2:7  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

Rev 2:11  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Evil is part of our training process! Without evil, we could not know good.  Evil is used through out our Bible, for both positive and what would appear negative purposes.

I think what the Bible tells us about Satan holds many clues to the concept of evil, and they do not hold to the views of orthodox Christianity. Why is this mysterious character of the Bible, whom we are taught is the creator of evil allowed so much control?

Paul

[Pierac]

Stay on topic people, I don't want to see this thread locked.   :sigh:

Paul

[Molly]

Now back to the topic...

Now that we have established the basics!

How did evil come into being?

God brought evil into being.

Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness,
Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim,
made all of these things."

Yes, it was the tree in the garden that al Adam was instructed not to touch, remember?

16 But the Lord God warned him, "You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden—17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die."

--Gen 2

[Molly]

Besides, the holy spirit is not a distince, separate entity apart from God. It is God's spirit.

Really.  So how does Jesus order God to send us his Spirit?  Does God follow Jesus' instructions?  Is Jesus higher than God, therefore?



5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

--John 16


And, why is one of the names for Jesus, "Counselor" ?  Isn't the Counselor the Holy Spirit?


Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[Nathan]

"If" the Holy Spirit is a separate entity . .then why did Jesus have to wait until he ascended into the Spirit in order for the Spirit to be poured out on all flesh???  Unless IT WAS THE SAME SPIRIT IN CHRIST THAT IS IN US.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother T... :hithere:

Tony, "If" Jesus is a Son as your mind sees a son to be, when did Jesus then "become" this son?

Good question!
Since God sent His Son into the world, I believe Jesus was His Son before He sent Him into the world.

The Bible does not say exactly when Jesus became His son, but it had to be before all in the heavens and on the earth was created.

One thing is for certain though, the Bible never says that God and His Son are co-eternal or of the same substance or any such Church ideas from Rome.

My  :2c:

IN TIME...

As I see it, there is no "when" in ETERNITY... only in TIME...

Scripture designates that, JESUS and YHVH reflect the SAME attribute by noting they are both UNCHANGING... (Heb 13:8 / Mal 3:6)

Anything which "BECOMES" something, has to have changed from what it was before it "became" what it NOW is...

JESUS, in the ETERNAL realm ...never "BECAME" a SON... He ALWAYS ...IS... a SON.

Any SON, ...(JESUS... being the FIRST [spiritual son] in THIS WORLD), is a SON in THIS WORLD with a beginning, because he/she entered TIME which has beginnings and endings...




IN ETERNITY...

The "spoken" WORD is a "SON" to the SILENT THOUGHT or knowledge... which does not mean it had a "beginning" ...if...  indeed, ...the THOUGHT is ETERNAL...  :dontknow:

For example:  If GOD ALWAYS KNEW ALL things in His heart, does it mean that in SPEAKING those things, that the KNOWLEDGE imparted in the SPOKEN WORD, ...began... at the moment of His SPEECH???   

Or is it better observed, that His KNOWLEDGE ...found manifest IN His SPEECH, ...is ETERNAL because it emerged from His HEART?

The "AUDIBLE manifestation" has a "beginning", but its ESSENCE which is found in the THOUGHT, is the SAME as is the THOUGHT, ...ETERNAL...   :thumbsup:

ALL SONS are of the ESSENCE of YHVH... which means He, in the ETERNAL, ...IS... ALL IN ALL... :yes:

btw...
There IS no "Problem with EVIL"... EVIL is part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD, and GOOD is part of the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL... NO PROBLEM!  :laugh:

They are ONE KNOWLEDGE, being both sides of that ONE KNOWLEDGE... found rooted in ONE TREE.

Just as is UP part of DOWN, or EAST dependent upon WEST...  :dontknow:

Is UP a "problem" for DOWN?  :pointlaugh:

Or IN a "problem" for OUT?  :pointlaugh:

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PeacE...
...willieH   :ty:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

No offense sister M, ...but this post is just more of your continuing LITERAL vision of the WORD...

What if God has left the planet?

What if God sent Adam instead, and then Jesus?

What if how this planet goes is up to us?

Then GOD is no longer ALMIGHTY, because it is now NOT "up to Him"...

We are given our choice between death and life, and if we keep choosing death, we will get death.

If that "choice" is ours alone, without aid or involvement from Him, ...again... He's NO LONGER, ALMIGHTY...

The TRUTH is that GOD set up what the DARKNESS of death IS...

(1) How it comes about,
(2) when it comes about,
(3) why it comes about, and
(4) its eternal deletion in favor of LIFE and LIGHT

But it's not as if the final ante won't be totalled up at the end.

It WILL, and in THAT END... Every knee will have bowed and tongue confessed, which IS the POINT of this whole thing...

These quoted verses have to do with NOW, not later:

14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

--Mat 25

Many, in reading, studying and following CHRIST often make... this life to be a competition in which WE ACHIEVE things, which are due "REWARD" in Eternity... and read the Scripture accordingly... seeking REWARD in Eternity...

My  :2c:  ...I see this as amiss... for our SEEKING should not encompass the desire for GAIN for ourselves within its motive... rather, it is to SEEK to KNOW, that we might have MORE to GIVE... to others...  :happygrin: ...NOT to obtain an extra "swimming pool" for ourselves in Heaven...  :sigh:

The KINGDOM of HEAVEN is NOW...  the OUTER DARKNESS (outside the LIGHT) is NOW...  The JOY of the Lord is NOW... MEN serve themselves or God, NOW... Men recieve or don't recieve REWARD, NOW

Those who faithfully serve will be given MORE of GOD and His truth... If we serve lightly or dont indulge ourselves in His WORD, we are as the servant who buried his given talent... but if we DILIGENTLY seek, then MORE is availed... which means MORE of HIS TRUTH is become IN US... to impart to, and BENEFIT, others...

When men believe, SEEK, and then preach and partake according to ELECTION (choosing of GOD), then men are part of the KINGDOM of HEAVEN, ...NOW...

When men do not believe in GOD, or believe his own distorted variations of GOD (which is also GOD's choosing), then he IS in OUTER DARKNESS (outside the LIGHT), ...NOW...

If men believe in GOD NOW, then they are ENTERED and are part of the JOY of LORD, ...NOW...

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)


PeacE...
...willieH   :ty:

[Molly]

No offense sister M, ...but this post is just more of your continuing LITERAL vision of the WORD...

LOL.  That's me.  I always do things backwards.  I started in the spiritual and now I am in the literal.

Then GOD is no longer ALMIGHTY, because it is now NOT "up to Him"...

Sure he is--if it was his decision to leave it to his bondservants and servants.  Then he has made the sovereign choice to leave it up to us [for a time].

These quoted verses have to do with NOW, not later:

Isn't that what I just said in my post?

Many, in reading, studying and following CHRIST often make... this life a competition in which WE ACHIEVE things, which are due "REWARD" in Eternity... and read the Scripture accordingly... seeking REWARD in Eternity...

My    ...I see this as amiss... for our SEEKING should not encompass the desire for GAIN for ourselves within its motive... rather, it is to SEEK to KNOW, that we might have MORE to GIVE... to others...   ...NOT to obtain an extra "swimming pool" for ourselves in Heaven... 

I don't believe I ever said that.  However, Paul did, hoping for a 'better resurrection,' and 'running the race ..[for the prize].

If men believe in GOD NOW, then they are ENTERED and are part of the JOY of LORD, ...NOW...

Yes, I agree--tada!   But, my thoughts are for the others...

[Tony N]

Stay on topic people, I don't want to see this thread locked.   :sigh:

Paul

Paul, I think you might be asking for the impossible.

But in a sense they are staying on track. You see, Paul, it was brought up that God is currently bringing evil on the earth. Then Molly stated that God left the earth when Christ left the earth. Then we got on the subject of if God indeed did leave the earth in order to prove that God is still here and still bringing about evil.

The basic meaning of evil is "smashing."

What is evil? Read the book of Job and see all that happened to Job, his family and possessions. Then read this:

Job 42:11 All his brothers and all his sisters came to him and all his acquaintances from before, and they ate bread with him in his house. Then they condoled with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him. Each of them gave to him one kesitah, and each, one pendant of gold.

Once you see all that came upon Job, then you will get an inkling of what evil is.

[MacPherson]

Hi Molly,
If Jesus is God, then Who sent Him into the world to save sinners?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with, God [YHVH] and the Word was God [YHVH].
John 1:1

Sorry Brian but that does not answer my question.
Joh 3:17 For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."

God dispatched His Son into the world so that the world would be saved through him.
John 3:17 does not say that "God sent Himself into the world."

While Jesus was on the earth He heard God's voice above coming from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus is God, was He the greatest ventriloquist ever?

While Jesus was on earth he taught His disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in Heaven." He did not teach them to pray "Your Father which is right in front of you."

Well, I'd say you're not taking into consideration the role of the Son of Man.

Now tell me how John can say He was God.

How can Thomas can call Him "my Lord and my God."

How Paul can call Him "our great God and Savior"

Without bearing false witness and committing blasphemy?

How Tony, how?

Hi Brian,
This is simple really. Thomas was saying "My Lord and my subjector/placer."
Paul said "to us there is one God, the Father." So in what way are we to take "our great God and Saviour"? Jesus can carry the title God. Jesus is our great subjector and Lord.

Surely you would not want the Scriptures to contradict Scriptures would you?

Since Jesus said he was ascending to the disciple's God, he was surely saying that, in the absolute sense, "I am not your God. I am ascending to where your God is, in heaven. Not only that but I am ascending to your Father. I am not your Father. Your Father is in heaven, hallowed be His name!

God told Moses that he, Moses, is God to pharaoh and Aaron was his prophet. Was God raising up a false God to pharaoh?
So in the sense that God made Moses "God" or "Subjector" so did God make Jesus God or "Subjector" of the whole human race.

Not meaning to chime in but, there's no such word as "Subjector".
God told Moses that, He God, would make Moses like God to Pharaoh.
Isaiah, John, Thomas and Paul are not God. God can say "I will make you like God" without committing blasphemy because He's God.
Isaih, John, Thomas and Paul are not God. Show one place where anyone besides God refers to Moses as God in any way. And Isaiah, John, Thomas and Paul don't say like God.

How do you want to reword,
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Is.9:6

That's two times he's called God in one sentence.

Are you a "Jehovah's Witness" by any chance? :dontknow:

Peace.