When I told a girlfriend of mine that I don't believe in everlasting Hell, because God is not that cruel, she asked me a contra-question: "Is God cruel for allowing people to suffer on Earth today? He will allow the unbelievers to suffer eternally for the same reason he allows people to suffer on Earth".
Looks we have an article here: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
What do you think?
QuoteHe will allow the unbelievers to suffer eternally for the same reason he allows people to suffer on Earth".
And what is the reason your girlfriend gives?
Emmm... I dunno.
its an interesting thought, you might ask your girl friend:
does God make people suffer on earth or does he just allow that they suffer?
if she says God allows it only, then ask her, why should God torture people for ever and ever? - there is no immortal soul, so if there would be eternal hell, it would be not because its the natural consequence, but because God would want it that way, keeping people alive only to torture them.
she might get problems to answer this, if this is really her believe.
Eternal Suffering verses suffering on this planet for a few hundred years at the absolute most. I don't see the connection. Does she have emotional problems or other logic issues? And the reason I say in comparison with suffering on this planet for a few hundred years at the absolute most is because I'm still hearing fish stories about how long some people are living in certain parts of the world, still plowing their fields at 120 and 130, etc., mystics in India claiming to be 300 years old, etc. Allowing for all of that to be true, inspite of our inherent tendency to roll our eyes about it when we hear about it, but just allowing the possibility for a minute for the sake of argument. It still doesn't follow that although someone's varying degrees of suffering in this life could be prolonged by that much that therefore eternal torment is absolutely true in another world, in another state, or in another form. Makes about as much sense as saying that because kitchen stoves are hot, therefore Hell is hot.
Quote from: martincisneros on December 11, 2008, 08:42:59 PM
still plowing their fields at 120 and 130, etc., mystics in India claiming to be 300 years old, etc.
They just look that old Martin :laughing7:
Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
The One pulling all the strings seems to claim 120 is the max..... Or not?
QuoteI don't see the connection.
I think that the connection is that if God is against suffering He can use His powers to stop the suffering immediately.
QuoteThey just look that old Martin
Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
The One pulling all the strings seems to claim 120 is the max..... Or not?
Yo WW, can anyone give an Answer... :icon_flower:
There's never been a limit imposed directly by God on man's age. The reference in Genesis is to 120 years until Noah's Flood happened from when God said that. The reference in Psalm 90 about 70 or 80 years old is addressed to people that were under God's curse for having refused to go and take the Promised Land under His leadership. God was systematically eliminating a generation so that He could take the younger generation into the Promised Land. And He does do the same thing to the present day when He has purposes of grace and a message to take into a new generation and the older generation is stuck in their religious traditional ways and refuses either the baptism with the Holy Spirit, or a change in perspective about God's deepening grace and mercy, a new level of teaching, or various other things/purposes.
But there is no universal law set up by God that says that you can't live to be a thousand or even ten thousand years old. It's all diet, attitude, and paradigm about how long people live. There have been people that have been traumatized by the death of a loved one or by someone being "Missing In Action" that have had to be committed to mental health care facilities for the rest of their lives and it's documented that 30 to 50 years later they're not physically a day older than when they shut down waiting on a loved one to return from a war or whatever.
Train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he's older he'll not depart from it, according to Proverbs. We're taught to die at less than 120, but it wasn't this way from the beginning.
Martin
QuoteThere's never been a limit imposed directly by God on man's age. The reference in Genesis is to 120 years until Noah's Flood happened from when God said that.
I've found several commentaries saying the same. People had 120 years to repent.
Quote from: Taffy on December 11, 2008, 09:40:21 PM
QuoteThey just look that old Martin
Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
The One pulling all the strings seems to claim 120 is the max..... Or not?
Yo WW, can anyone give an Answer... :icon_flower:
I gave my answer just above your 1st post. I can understand the question of B_T girlfriend very well. I have similar thoughts.
It just seems too extreme to me that God would bring billions of people into existence in this sin sick world with all of its darkness and destruction, famine and all the evils that go along with it and these billions of people suffer for their entire lives only to stand before the God of Christendom and He has to tell them that if they thought their life on earth was bad they aint seen nothin yet. And He has to tell them to depart into eternal hell fires where the torment is never ending. Is that really the kind of God we want to present to the billions of people on this earth that are already suffering?
Can anyone truly love such a God?
Do such Christians that believe in the above kind of God love Him because they fear His diabolicalness?
Is such a love a truly genuine kind of love? Or is it just a fire insurance kind of love?
I'm so glad we have a God we can share with the world that is a kinder, gentler God who truly is fond of humanity and seeks the highest for their good. His Son's death assures us that He truly loves all mankind.
Tony
Quote from: B_T on December 11, 2008, 07:51:36 PM
When I told a girlfriend of mine that I don't believe in everlasting Hell, because God is not that cruel, she asked me a contra-question: "Is God cruel for allowing people to suffer on Earth today? He will allow the unbelievers to suffer eternally for the same reason he allows people to suffer on Earth".
Looks we have an article here: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
What do you think?
What if God has left the planet?
What if God sent Adam instead, and then Jesus?
What if how this planet goes is up to us?
We are given our choice between death and life, and if we keep choosing death, we will get death.
But it's not as if the final ante won't be totalled up at the end.
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
--Mat 25
Hi Molly, I'm curious what your thoughts are on this passage?
Jam 4:13-16 Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain--" (14) who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing--" (15) instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that." (16) Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.
What does it say to you?
One time I was praying about the topic of suffering in the World and complaining to God about how I didn't understand it. And in addition to the typical topics which are used to help someone worrying about suffering, the Spirit emphasized the doctrine of the separation to me. And I mean EMPHASIZED! This natural realm is totally separated from God because of the fall. The World and all flesh are dying consequently. Not to mention the curses against the natural realm. And so I began to understand that the separation between this realm and God is the reason for suffering. And that separation is absolutely TOTAL. And understanding this makes the importance of prayer clearer. Prayer is the only thing which can bridge(Christ) the gulf of separation between our World and God. So, how important do you think prayer is!?
Also, with regards to what your girlfriend said. A question to her! If God does not allow unending suffering in our World, why would God allow it in the next life? I would love to hear what her answer is.
Quote from: Tony N on December 13, 2008, 02:46:18 PM
Hi Molly, I'm curious what your thoughts are on this passage?
Jam 4:13-16 Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain--" (14) who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing--" (15) instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that." (16) Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.
What does it say to you?
I would say that even though God has left the planet, he has left behind his servants who are to be
a city on a hill to those who do not know him. As such, these ambassadors have their citizenship in another country, the kingdom of God, and are here as angels[messengers] of God.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.--Mat 5
Hi Molly,
Thanks for your sharing. I'm curious when God left the planet? especially when:
"in Him we are living and moving and are" (Act 17:28) and Paul told that to the Athenian unbelievers.
And we have God dwelling in the corporate body of believers, how can He leave the planet?
Thanks for your input.
Love and peace,
Tony
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."
--John 16
33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "
--Mat 13
Quote from: Molly on December 13, 2008, 09:51:58 PM
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."
--John 16
33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "
--Mat 13
And so you are saying your verses contradict the other Scriptures of the Bible which say God is still here?
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Judas hung himself
Then Judas, His betrayer.....[said], "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood."
--Mat 27
Mat 2:3 Now, hearing of it, King Herod was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.
Not one sparrow falls without your Father. In him we live and move and have our being, absolutely. God and creation cannot be separated as He actively sustains life and existence for all. The only separation is in our minds, not in spiritual reality. As we understand this so the world will transformed until the knowledge of glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.
Jesus said he was going away, why? So that the Holy Spirit could come to us. The Holy Spirit OF God. So we are not limited to a physcial man in a particular place in the world to comfort and teach us.
The act of suffering is an experience of evil so we can enjoy the experience of health and well being in much greater abundance. No matter how hard I try, I can't imagine realizing how great feeling good is until I've felt awful for a time. We've all seen the result of sheltering and providing to our children whatever they desire--spoiled children who not many people like to be around. It's amazing how preachers can talk about God torturing humanity endlessly and not seem to feel any sorrow or horror, but that it is just and what unbelievers deserve.. I really didn't hear many sermons on hell growing up. I guess our preachers didn't feel comfortable with it. I can't even remember where I first heard or read about tee mainstream concept of it now. I'm just thrilled I know the true heart of the Father.
Very good firstborn.
There is a verse in the Bible that says something like: If God withdraws His spirit they all perish.
But I can't find it. So we know if God really "left the building" we would not be viewing this message right now but would all be dead.
I think that what Molly is saying (and I could be wrong) but what I think she is saying that since, to her, Jesus is God, and since Jesus left for that "far away country" that therefore God left this earth.
But the question needs to be asked: Since Jesus said He is not God nor the Father by means of saying this:
Joh 20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God"
in what sense is Jesus God when some verses ascribe this title to Him? It is in the sense of Jesus being the Subjector. When the Jews were about to stone Him for making himself God He replied to them: Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? " So Jesus was saying, look, I am a subjector just like you are subjectors.
So even though Jesus did ascend to heaven, we are still, as you rightly say: In Him (that is "in God") we live and move and have our being.
Quote from: Tony N on December 14, 2008, 02:26:06 PM
Very good firstborn.
There is a verse in the Bible that says something like: If God withdraws His spirit they all perish.
But I can't find it. So we know if God really "left the building" we would not be viewing this message right now but would all be dead.
I think that what Molly is saying (and I could be wrong) but what I think she is saying that since, to her, Jesus is God, and since Jesus left for that "far away country" that therefore God left this earth.
But the question needs to be asked: Since Jesus said He is not God nor the Father by means of saying this:
Joh 20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God"
in what sense is Jesus God when some verses ascribe this title to Him? It is in the sense of Jesus being the Subjector. When the Jews were about to stone Him for making himself God He replied to them: Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? " So Jesus was saying, look, I am a subjector just like you are subjectors.
So even though Jesus did ascend to heaven, we are still, as you rightly say: In Him (that is "in God") we live and move and have our being.
Sounds right to me, Tony. And I'll give a second amen to Firstborn's post.
Yes, of course I believe Jesus is God. God has many names in the Bible relating to his function in relationship to man. The whole Bible is about God and man. The whole New Testament is about Jesus, Yah's Salvation, Y'shuah.
Zephaniah 3:17
The LORD your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing."
23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
--Mat 1
In this case given by Tony, Jesus cannot be touched by an [unclean] human because he is about to go into the Most Holy Place as High Priest [himself] to present the unblemished sacrifice [himself] to God [himself]. That's the way I read it. Jesus is the whole ball of wax.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
But, I don't want to hijack this thread. That's another thread. If you knew who Jesus the man was, you would know who you are.
Nevertheless, the question is does God cause the suffering in the world--and my answer is no, evil man causes it. God doesn't steal, cheat, lie, and murder people by the millons--evil man does that.
Jeremiah 32:18
You show lovingkindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them—the Great, the Mighty God, whose name is the LORD of hosts.
"Mighty God"
'El Gibbôr
Quote from: ScarletWren on December 14, 2008, 02:19:22 PM
No matter how hard I try, I can't imagine realizing how great feeling good is until I've felt awful for a time.
I remember once being so sick for a couple of weeks and I finally decided "If I could just feel 'normal' again I will never complain about anything ever again for the rest of my life". :boyheart:
Hi Molly,
If Jesus is God, then Who sent Him into the world to save sinners?
If Jesus is God (in the absolute kind of way . . . the invisible Deity which fills heaven and earth) how was it that Jesus, while He was on earth taught His disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven" if God and the Father were on the earth teaching the disciples to pray?
If Jesus is God, Who was that in heaven speaking down to earth saying: "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased!"?
If Jesus is God, what do you make of these verses:
46 Now about the ninth hour Jesus exclaims with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi! Eloi! Lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God! My God ! Why didst Thou forsake Me?"
Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus implores with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi! Eloi! Lema sabachthani?" which is, being construed, " My God! My God ! Why didst Thou forsake Me?"
If Jesus was God why didn't He say "Myself! Myself! Why didst I forsake Myself?
Jesus said:
"Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, `Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God .'"
Yep, that's right. You heard it firsthand right from the Saviour's mouth. He has a God and is going to that God. And He is not their God but is going to their God.
John 1:18 God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God , Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him
Interesting how that they saw Christ. If Christ were THAT God then John could not write that no one has seen God since they saw Christ. That is why God needed someone to unfold Him who is invisible.
Rom.1:8 "First, indeed, I am thanking My God through Jesus Christ"
See there? Paul's God was not Jesus Christ. He was thanking his God THROUGH Jesus Christ.
1Cor.1:4 I am thanking my God always concerning you over the grace of God which is being given you in Christ Jesus, 5 for in everything are you enriched in Him, in all expression and all knowledge, 6 according as the testimony of Christ was confirmed among you, 7 so that you are not deficient in any grace, awaiting the unveiling of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 Who will be confirming you also until the consummation, unimpeachable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Faithful is God , through Whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Here again Paul is thanking God Who is not Jesus Christ and shows a distinction between the two.
2Cor.1:3 "Blessed is the God...of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of pities"
Yep, that's right, Jesus has a God. Do you believe it? Or can you just hurl insults?
Eph 1:3 "Blessed be the God...of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Did you see that? Jesus has a God.
Eph 1:16 "...making mention in my prayers 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory"
Got goose bumps now? Yep, Jesus has a God.
1Tim.2:5 For there is one God , and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus, 6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all"
Wow! talk about a Nicene Creed buster! Not Three Gods, not two Gods, not three in one God but One God AND one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus.
Col1:3 "We are thanking the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, always praying concerning you,
Rev 3:2 Become watchful, and establish the rest who were about to be dying; for I have not found your acts completed in the sight of My God.
Yep that is right, Jesus has a God. Says so right there.
Rev.3:12 "`"The one who is conquering, him will I [Jesus] be making a pillar in the temple of My God , and he may be coming out nevermore, and I will be writing on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which is descending out of heaven from My God, and My new name. 13 "`"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias."'
That's right...Jesus has a God.
Remember, Molly, if there are Scriptures which contradict these scriptures then both sets of Scriptures are wrong. The question to ask is: In what sense can Jesus carry the title "God"?
But since we have the definitive verses which show Jesus has a God, Jesus therefore cannot be THAT God. Right?
Quote from: B_T on December 11, 2008, 07:57:56 PM
Emmm... I dunno.
Kind of hard to respond without knowing that.
Quote from: TonyBut since we have the definitive verses which show Jesus has a God, Jesus therefore cannot be THAT God. Right?
It's hopefully being made clear to you that God is not a man. God is Spirit. Lest you are tempted to start worshipping your next door neighbor or your President or some rock star...
As for Y'shuah--we have a special case--
the unique Son of God--
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11
...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2Peter 3:18
To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12
...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:1
...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10
..a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24
..by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
[T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3
"..who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5
... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. --Matthew 4:10
And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6
"But unto the SON he saith, 'Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom'...And, 'Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.'" -- Hebrews 1:8, 10
Quote from: Molly on December 15, 2008, 06:13:12 PM
It's hopefully being made clear to you that God is not a man. God is Spirit.
Isn't being one of the pleasures of being God that you can be everything you wish to be?
What if God is like man . . .or man is like God . . .I am a Spirit (God) that has a soul (Holy Spirit/convictions) that lives in a body (Christ manifested).
When Christ manifested in the flesh, our limited little minds picture him "leaving" one place to show up in another. But how big is God? What if the entire creation . .all galaxies are "in" God? Christ could manifest as the Son in the flesh, without ever really leaving God as he is still in him. Can your soul be separated from your body? Can any one part of you be removed from you? No. Not without inflicting death.
Just as you can't remove any part of you to create another entity of "you". . .you can't separate Christ from the Father . . .they are one in Spirit, beit separate in dimension.
Seems to be where I am with it today.
Quote from: Nathan on December 15, 2008, 07:38:32 PM
What if God is like man . . .or man is like God . . .I am a Spirit (God) that has a soul (Holy Spirit/convictions) that lives in a body (Christ manifested).
When Christ manifested in the flesh, our limited little minds picture him "leaving" one place to show up in another. But how big is God? What if the entire creation . .all galaxies are "in" God? Christ could manifest as the Son in the flesh, without ever really leaving God as he is still in him. Can your soul be separated from your body? Can any one part of you be removed from you? No. Not without inflicting death.
Just as you can't remove any part of you to create another entity of "you". . .you can't separate Christ from the Father . . .they are one in Spirit, beit separate in dimension.
Seems to be where I am with it today.
Help me with this. I am seeing another dimension of God these days, in the relationship between men. He stands in the midst--whenever two or more of you are gathered in my name, I am there--He is there in the transaction between two or more of his own--
If man removes him from the transaction--the whole thing collapses--as we are seeing in the world today..We are in such trouble...
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. --Acts 17
Molly, where was God when Jesus said while he was on the earth:
"I am ascending to my God and your God and my Father and your Father" ?
If Jesus is God, how could He ascend to where God was in heaven?
If Jesus is not the disciple's God then how can Jesus be God?
If Jesus is not the disciple's Father, then how can Jesus be the disciple's Father?
Quote from: Tony N on December 15, 2008, 08:37:30 PM
Molly, where was God when Jesus said while he was on the earth:
"I am ascending to my God and your God and my Father and your Father" ?
If Jesus is God, how could He ascend to where God was in heaven?
If Jesus is not the disciple's God then how can Jesus be God?
If Jesus is not the disciple's Father, then how can Jesus be the disciple's Father?
Those are questions I asked myself when I was eight years old.
Who was Jesus praying to? I asked myself.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
--Phil 2
"in fashion" [as a man]
G4976
σχῆμα
schēmaskhay'-mah
From the alternate of G2192; a figure (as a mode or circumstance), that is, (by implication)
external condition: - fashion.
Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Let me ask you this . . .who are you speaking to when you're talking to yourself? How many conversations are occuring inside your head? who's talking to whom?
When one is ascended, in is simply in a realm "higher than" another. It's not by a measure of distance, but by dimension. They are three, yes, but if you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father . . .it's a spiritual mystery that goes beyond the boundaries of the mind's ability to fully understand.
Quote from: Tony N on December 15, 2008, 01:55:51 PM
Remember, Molly, if there are Scriptures which contradict these scriptures then both sets of `Scriptures are wrong. The question to ask is: In what sense can Jesus carry the title "God"?
But since we have the definitive verses which show Jesus has a God, Jesus therefore cannot be THAT God. Right?
Jn 10:30 I and the Father, We are one.
1C 8:5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords,
1C 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we into Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
Key words "out of Whom" "through Whom"
Phl 2:6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
Phl 2:7 but nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
We must see the order and purpose that scripture explains.
Separate but one at the same time, ever expanding, never truly apart, we aren't either.
Ps 82:6 I Myself have said: you are elohim, And sons of the Supreme are all of you.
Jn 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that `I say you are gods'?
"... feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with his OWN BLOOD."
--Acts 20:28
Quote from: Brian on December 15, 2008, 10:12:38 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 15, 2008, 08:37:30 PM
Molly, where was God when Jesus said while he was on the earth:
"I am ascending to my God and your God and my Father and your Father" ?
If Jesus is God, how could He ascend to where God was in heaven?
If Jesus is not the disciple's God then how can Jesus be God?
If Jesus is not the disciple's Father, then how can Jesus be the disciple's Father?
From: http://www.tommybertoli.com/Trinity-Study.html
The Deity of Jesus Christ in the New Testament
1. The prologue of John (1:1-18)
a. The Word is eternal; v.1 (co-eternal with God). The tense of the verb "was" expresses continuous action in the past. This indicates that the Word was in existence, not came into existence. The text is implying no matter how far one goes back in time, (In the beginning) the Word always existed at that particular time.
"When all things began, the Word already was" (New English Translation)
Tony's reply:
The first red flag is: "The Word is eternal; v.1 (co-eternal with God)." The Bible never says God is eternal. The Bible never says the Word is eternal. This is just Platonistic theology.
Quoteb. The Word existed in a relationship with God in the beginning; v.1. The preposition "with" emphasizes a personal relationship (eternal fellowship) existing between two persons. The Greek word with (pros) is translated "face to face" in 1Cor.13:12
Tony's reply: Again, the Bible knows no such Platonistic idea as "eternal fellowship" and "two persons." God and the holy spirit are never said to be "persons."
Quote"Jesus Christ did not at some point in time come into existence or begin a relationship with the Father. In eternity past the Father (God) and the Son (the Word) have always been in a loving communion with each other.
Tony's reply:
Again, more Platonistic theology. For instance, an easy way to disprove that the Son was co-eternal in the past is the very term "Son." If Jesus, as the Son was co-eternal then He could never have become a Son and God could never have fathered the Son since, according to the Platonistic idea, they were both "co-eternal".
Quotec. The Word was God; v.1 (co-equal with God). The absent of the article "the" before God, is purposely left out by John to maintain a distinction between the Word and God. John is not trying to prove that the Word is God but that the Word is equal to God but apart from being God the Father in this
13
________________________________________
verse. The Word as a distinct person is God as to His nature but apart from the Father.
Both Father and Son are God, yet there are not two Gods." The Son is co-eternal, co-equal, and consubstantial (same essence) with the Father.
Tony's reply:
Again, just more non-Scriptural platonistic terminology such as "co-eternal". And there is nothing in the Bible about "consubstantial." Whenever someone has to make up a term not found in the Bible it should be suspect and it usually hides more than it reveals.
If Jesus as the Son is co-eternal then when did His Sonship begin? The very term "son" carries with it the idea of "beginning." Otherwise, if the son is co-eternal with the father how could he begin being a son? And the very second the son was begotten was the very second God became Father. Otherwise, He could not carry the title "Father" if the Son is co-eternal. In other words, He could never beget the Son if the Son always was a Son. Get it?
Quote(6) Jesus Christ, God the Son, has made the Father known, who no one has ever seen (vs.18)
Jesus Christ is God in Human flesh, the eternal Creator of all things, "the one and only Son" (only begotten) who has made known to us God the Father.
The passage above (the prologue of John), if interpreted apart from the Trinitarian doctrine (the Triune God), would make absolutely no sense unless we subscribe to polytheism
Tony's reply: The Bible knows no such term as "God the Son." It is always "Son of God." The Bible knows no such moster as "the Triune God" either.
As to everything else the writer wrote I will take Jesus' own words:
"I am ascending to My God and your God and My Father and your Father."
In other words Jesus is telling the disciples "I am not your God and I am not your Father." I am going to where your God is and where your Father is.
Quote from: Brian on December 15, 2008, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 15, 2008, 01:55:51 PM
Hi Molly,
If Jesus is God, then Who sent Him into the world to save sinners?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with, God [YHVH] and the Word was God [YHVH].
John 1:1
Sorry Brian but that does not answer my question.
Joh 3:17 For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."
God dispatched His Son into the world so that the world would be saved through him.
John 3:17 does not say that "God sent Himself into the world."
While Jesus was on the earth He heard God's voice above coming from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus is God, was He the greatest ventriloquist ever?
While Jesus was on earth he taught His disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in Heaven." He did not teach them to pray "Your Father which is right in front of you."
Tony, "If" Jesus is a Son as your mind sees a son to be, when did Jesus then "become" this son?
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2008, 02:54:17 AM
Tony, "If" Jesus is a Son as your mind sees a son to be, when did Jesus then "become" this son?
Good question!
Since God sent His Son into the world, I believe Jesus was His Son before He sent Him into the world.
The Bible does not say exactly when Jesus became His son, but it had to be before all in the heavens and on the earth was created.
One thing is for certain though, the Bible never says that God and His Son are co-eternal or of the same substance or any such Church ideas from Rome.
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2008, 08:03:58 AM
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 02:11:28 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 15, 2008, 10:12:38 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 15, 2008, 08:37:30 PM
Molly, where was God when Jesus said while he was on the earth:
"I am ascending to my God and your God and my Father and your Father" ?
If Jesus is God, how could He ascend to where God was in heaven?
If Jesus is not the disciple's God then how can Jesus be God?
If Jesus is not the disciple's Father, then how can Jesus be the disciple's Father?
From: http://www.tommybertoli.com/Trinity-Study.html
The Deity of Jesus Christ in the New Testament
1. The prologue of John (1:1-18)
a. The Word is eternal; v.1 (co-eternal with God). The tense of the verb "was" expresses continuous action in the past. This indicates that the Word was in existence, not came into existence. The text is implying no matter how far one goes back in time, (In the beginning) the Word always existed at that particular time.
"When all things began, the Word already was" (New English Translation)
Quote
Tony's reply:
The first red flag is: "The Word is eternal; v.1 (co-eternal with God)." The Bible never says God is eternal. The Bible never says the Word is eternal. This is just Platonistic theology.
A habitation [is] the eternal God, And beneath [are] arms age-during. And He casteth out from thy presence the enemy, and saith, `Destroy!'
Deuteronomy 33:27 YLT
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable; Romans 1:20 YLT
Note These are the only two verses in the Young's Literal translation containing the word "eternal".
I'll get to the rest tomorrow. Bedtime now
"the habitation of Elohim
aforetime. And beneath are the arms
eonian. He shall drive out the enemy from your presence and shall say:Exterminate him! (Dt. 33:27) (Concordant Version)
Rom 1:20 For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides
His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless, (Concordant Literal).
In Dt. 33:27
aforetime is strongs 6924 qedem and has nothing to do with eternity. It is often translated almost always as "east" and "eastward", once or twice as "ancient", once "of old", but once "eternal" in Dt.33:27 in the King James. Also "olam" is used where the CLNT has eonian. Olam is never used to mean "eternal".
Concerning Aidios:
[H]aides is a noun and names the UN-PERCEIVED. Aidios is an adjective and describes what is UN-PERCEIVED. It has an exact equivalent in our word imperceptible.
Aidios is usually derived from aei, always, just like aionios. This word comes from two elements a, un- and ei, if, and means UN-IF, ever, that is, without question (not eternally). Pilate had ever aei granted a prisoner to the Jews at the Passover. He surely did not do this in eternity past or future (Mark 15:8). This is the word which has been the innocent cause of untold error. Because it is the basis of aion, EVER-BEING, men have given the word the idea of endlessness. It simply means that which exists without question. (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.
From Scarlett's translation notes we have this:
<center>AIDIOS IN JUDE</CENTER>
"I would therefore remind you, who once knew this, that the Lord, after saving his people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those who did not believe. 6 and he hath reserved in
unseen chains, under darkness, against the judgment of the great day, those angels who did not keep their proper abode: 7 even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the circumjacent cities with them giving themselves up to lewdness, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of
aeonian fire."
"Most Lexicon-writers derive the word
aidios from
aei, ever, or
always: but it may have the same etemology as
hades, which they derive from
a negative, and
idein, to see; and therefore it signifies
invisible, unseen, or
unknown. In Rom.1:20 where it is applied to the power of the Deity, it means
unknown; becuase we see or know only a very small part of God's power. the word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks: thus Thucydides has this phrase–
othen aidion misboqboran uparchein, from whence he expected a perpetual salary." But this could be only a salary
during his life: therefore the word here in Thucydides means a period
unknown; though it will certainly end."
Taken from "A Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek" by Nathaniel Scarlett 1798.
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2008, 02:54:17 AM
Tony, "If" Jesus is a Son as your mind sees a son to be, when did Jesus then "become" this son?
Good question!
Since God sent His Son into the world, I believe Jesus was His Son before He sent Him into the world.
The Bible does not say exactly when Jesus became His son, but it had to be before all in the heavens and on the earth was created.
One thing is for certain though, the Bible never says that God and His Son are co-eternal or of the same substance or any such Church ideas from Rome.
I still see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as "one". You've not really put to rest the passage that states if we've seen the Son, we've seen the Father, and all of the passages that Jesus refers to himself and the Father being "one". For me, it's one body. Christ is the extension of God, just like my hand is the extension of my body. I send my hand to do a task, God sent Christ to do a task. When it's finished, my hand returns to my body . . .Just as Christ returns to the body of the Father . . .and when we come to Christ, we become a part of that same body as we are all living stones and Christ is the cornerstone, the foundation of the body of the Father.
Many times Jesus refers to this oneness, one of the more predominant places is in his prayer to the Father in John 17. I'd put the whole chapter in, but I don't want to lose the point on this, so I'm honing in on just those that refer to the oneness of the God-head.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evilI wanted to throw this one in here because for me, it would appear that those who believe in the rapture are actually believing against the very thing Jesus was praying. His desire is not that we are to find an escape route out of this decaying life, but that we introduce life rather than be infuenced by death.
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. This was already done before the foundation of the world. What we saw 2,000 years ago is simply the completion in the physical realm of what was already accomplished in the spiritual. This oneness is the same thing. It's a spiritual mystery. You can't use natural reasoning to explain and separate God for Christ or Christ from God . .they are one. It seems to revert back to an interesting question posed elsewhere . . .which do we want? Are we willing to consider our thinking could be skewed and in faith, receive the truth? Or are we just accepting the dogma?
The spiritual experiences are not happening so the natural reasoning can understand. It's the natural experiences that are used of God to explain spiritual realities to the "heart" (not head) of man.
It's just as it was with me and UR as with some others I've noticed by their comments. My heart already knew the UR understanding to be true, but my head had never heard of it before. My head didn't come into it until I came into this forum and learned there is a name for what my heart had already led me into. And . . . I'm learning that there is more than just one route to enter into this understanding. Mine was by way of patterns in Revelation. Others came by literal applications . . .and both end up in truth.
Hi Nathan,
Since Jesus said he is not the disciple's God nor the disciple's Father when he stated he was ascending to their God and their Father and to his God and his Father, in what way are we to take the passage in which he truthfully states that he and the Father are one?
We must also ask, in what way are the disciples to be one "according as We are One"?
Joh 17:20-26 Yet not concerning these only am I asking, but also concerning those who are believing in Me through their word, (21) that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me." (22) And I have given them the glory which Thou has given Me, that they may be one, according as We are One, (23) I in them and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in one, and that the world may know that Thou dost commission Me and dost love them according as Thou dost love Me." (24) Father, those whom Thou hast given Me, I will that, where I am, they also may be with Me, that they may be beholding My glory which Thou has given Me, for Thou lovest Me before the disruption of the world." (25) Just Father, the world, also, knew Thee not, yet I knew Thee. And these know that Thou dost commission Me." (26) And I make known to them Thy name, and I shall make it known, that the love with which Thou lovest Me may be in them, and I in them."
The oneness of the disciples is to be like the oneness of the Father and the Son. It does not mean that the disciples become the Father and become "G-O-D". Peter and the eleven are not GOD now. Jesus is not G-O-D in the absolute sense of the word but He reveals God to us by His words and actions.
Yes Jesus was "out of the Father" and he is the only way to the Father.
When Jesus said: "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" He said this in the sense that the disciples saw the attributes of the Father. Jesus could not literally be the Father for if he was he could not be the son of God.
When my dad was still alive I told him I finally figured out the verse: "The pure in heart shall see God." He replied "Oh?" and I answered that when I see him I see God. But did I mean by that that my dad is the invisible God which fills heaven and earth? No.
"FOR US there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (1 Cor.8:6).
It does not say: "For us there is one God, the Father and Jesus Christ." It states there is one God who is the source of all and one Lord who is the channel of all.
Of course there are verses which state Jesus is God. But in what sense? Since there is only one God and not two or three, how is it possible for Jesus to carry the title God? Moses was told by God that Moses would be God and Aaron his prophet when dealing with Pharaoh. Is Moses now part of a quadrinity? Moses was to be God to pharaoh in that he was to subject Pharaoh to what God wanted. In the Psalms it is written to the Jews that "I say ye are Gods." They carry the title "God" in the sense that they were to subject Israel to the law. They were arbiters. In the same sense Jesus carries the title "God" in that all mankind will be subjected to him (1 Cor.15:22-28). But God is the only one not subjected to Christ (1 Cor.15:27).
"I am ascending to my God and your God" Jesus said. My God and your God is above, not on the earth. I am going to where your God and my God is. If I were your God I would be ascending to myself.
"Hereby perceive we the love of GOD, because he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us...
--1 John 3:16
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 05:29:09 PM
Hi Nathan,
Since Jesus said he is not the disciple's God nor the disciple's Father when he stated he was ascending to their God and their Father and to his God and his Father, in what way are we to take the passage in which he truthfully states that he and the Father are one?
We must also ask, in what way are the disciples to be one "according as We are One"?
Joh 17:20-26 Yet not concerning these only am I asking, but also concerning those who are believing in Me through their word, (21) that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me." (22) And I have given them the glory which Thou has given Me, that they may be one, according as We are One, (23) I in them and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in one, and that the world may know that Thou dost commission Me and dost love them according as Thou dost love Me." (24) Father, those whom Thou hast given Me, I will that, where I am, they also may be with Me, that they may be beholding My glory which Thou has given Me, for Thou lovest Me before the disruption of the world." (25) Just Father, the world, also, knew Thee not, yet I knew Thee. And these know that Thou dost commission Me." (26) And I make known to them Thy name, and I shall make it known, that the love with which Thou lovest Me may be in them, and I in them."
The oneness of the disciples is to be like the oneness of the Father and the Son. It does not mean that the disciples become the Father and become "G-O-D". Peter and the eleven are not GOD now. Jesus is not G-O-D in the absolute sense of the word but He reveals God to us by His words and actions.
Yes Jesus was "out of the Father" and he is the only way to the Father.
When Jesus said: "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" He said this in the sense that the disciples saw the attributes of the Father. Jesus could not literally be the Father for if he was he could not be the son of God.
When my dad was still alive I told him I finally figured out the verse: "The pure in heart shall see God." He replied "Oh?" and I answered that when I see him I see God. But did I mean by that that my dad is the invisible God which fills heaven and earth? No.
"FOR US there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (1 Cor.8:6).
It does not say: "For us there is one God, the Father and Jesus Christ." It states there is one God who is the source of all and one Lord who is the channel of all.
Of course there are verses which state Jesus is God. But in what sense? Since there is only one God and not two or three, how is it possible for Jesus to carry the title God? Moses was told by God that Moses would be God and Aaron his prophet when dealing with Pharaoh. Is Moses now part of a quadrinity? Moses was to be God to pharaoh in that he was to subject Pharaoh to what God wanted. In the Psalms it is written to the Jews that "I say ye are Gods." They carry the title "God" in the sense that they were to subject Israel to the law. They were arbiters. In the same sense Jesus carries the title "God" in that all mankind will be subjected to him (1 Cor.15:22-28). But God is the only one not subjected to Christ (1 Cor.15:27).
"I am ascending to my God and your God" Jesus said. My God and your God is above, not on the earth. I am going to where your God and my God is. If I were your God I would be ascending to myself.
But for me, you are still trying to break down a spiritual reality by way of natural means. I am spirit . . .my soul is one with my spirit as they both live "in" one body . .but I am still three . .body, soul and spirit.
How can Jesus be a literal "son" to God? Who is the Mother? The Holy Ghost? Literally, you can divide, but they just don't fit. Spiritually, they were always one . . . and they all three converse one with another. God speaks to us through the experience of 'faith' in the cross by way of revelation "in" the Spirit . . .all three manifest, and all three are one.
I'm cool with your point of view . . . I just see it a little different is all.
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
--1 John 5:7
The last verse quoted about "our Father which art in "heaven" . . ." Heaven, for me, is among us . . just in a different realm. It's not far off in the outer galaxy somewhere . . .it "is" right here among and "in" us . . .just in the spirit . . .which is the natural, turned inside out.
1Jn 5:6 This is He Who is coming through water and blood and spirit--Jesus Christ--not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood. And the spirit it is which is testifying, for the spirit is the truth,
1Jn 5:7 seeing that three there are that are testifying,
1Jn 5:8 the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing.
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2008, 07:35:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2008, 07:11:56 PM
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
--1 John 5:7
"Nowhere in Scripture does it say God is a "three headed monster!"
And yet there it is. An inarguable statement; THESE THREE ARE ONE.
There are words added in some translations that are not in the manuscripts. The added words are the bias that the Trinity theory is correct, not that scripture inarguably contain those words.
1 john 5:6
"This is the one coming thru water and blood Jesus annointed not in the water only but in the water and in the blood and the spirit is the one witnessing that the spirit is the truth"
1 john 5:7 the manuscripts only contain this phrase.
"seeing that" "They are" "the testifying"
1 john 5:8
"the spirit and the water and the blood and the three into the one are"
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2008, 07:11:56 PM
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
--1 John 5:7
Molly, 1 John 5:7 is totally bogus and not in any good Greek texts.
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2008, 07:16:11 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 02:19:37 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 15, 2008, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 15, 2008, 01:55:51 PM
Hi Molly,
If Jesus is God, then Who sent Him into the world to save sinners?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with, God [YHVH] and the Word was God [YHVH].
John 1:1
Quote
Sorry Brian but that does not answer my question.
Joh 3:17 For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."
God dispatched His Son into the world so that the world would be saved through him.
John 3:17 does not say that "God sent Himself into the world."
While Jesus was on the earth He heard God's voice above coming from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus is God, was He the greatest ventriloquist ever?
While Jesus was on earth he taught His disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in Heaven." He did not teach them to pray "Your Father which is right in front of you."
Well, I'd say you're not taking into consideration the role of the Son of Man.
Now tell me how John can say He was God.
How can Thomas can call Him "my Lord and my God."
How Paul can call Him "our great God and Savior"
Without bearing false witness and committing blasphemy?
How Tony, how?
Hi Brian,
This is simple really. Thomas was saying "My Lord and my subjector/placer."
Paul said "to us there is one God, the Father." So in what way are we to take "our great God and Saviour"? Jesus can carry the title God. Jesus is our great subjector and Lord.
Surely you would not want the Scriptures to contradict Scriptures would you?
Since Jesus said he was ascending to the disciple's God, he was surely saying that, in the absolute sense, "I am not your God. I am ascending to where your God is, in heaven. Not only that but I am ascending to your Father. I am not your Father. Your Father is in heaven, hallowed be His name!
God told Moses that he, Moses, is God to pharaoh and Aaron was his prophet. Was God raising up a false God to pharaoh?
So in the sense that God made Moses "God" or "Subjector" so did God make Jesus God or "Subjector" of the whole human race.
:bdh:
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2008, 08:05:06 PM
:bdh:
That Poor Horse , Tis Dead Beat :icon_jokercolor:
Now back to the topic...
I'm pulling this information from a thread, I started on another Forum...
I want to start a topic on EVIL! There seems to be quite a bit of variations of beliefs on this subject. I think it would be a good study to look into! What does Evil mean? How did it come about? Was evil created, or did it come about on it's own accord? Who and what is Satan? Did he fall like Adam or was he created the "adversary" from the very beginning? Or as some few might believe, is Satan actually just the fallen nature of man and not really a being at all?
These are tough questions for mature Christians! I'm not seeking opinions! My 7 year old has opinions! I'M LOOKING FOR SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM!
Like I said at the beginning of my "Trinity Talk" thread! No one wants to believe a lie. So be respectful. If you disagree with some one then explain yourself without getting emotional! Use scripture but at the same time explain why you believe the verse means what it says!
Now to the definitions! No two parties can discuss an issue unless they agree on the meaning of the words being discussed! So I feel at this time it's important to start with a universal understanding of the Hebrew and Greek words for EVIL...
Unless otherwise contested, shall we agree with these definitions?
First we will start with the Hebrew:
Strongs: H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]
Word Study: H7451 רע ra‛, ָרָעה
rā‛āh: An adjective meaning bad, evil. The basic meaning of this word displays ten or more various shades of the meaning of evil according to its contextual usage. It means bad in a moral and ethical sense and is used to describe, along with good, the entire spectrum of good and evil; hence, it depicts evil in an absolute, negative sense, as when it describes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen_2:9; Gen_3:5, Gen_3:22). It was necessary for a wise king to be able to discern the evil or the good in the actions of his people (Ecc_12:14); men and women are characterized as evil (1Sa_30:22; Est_7:6; Jer_2:33). The human heart is evil all day long (Gen_6:5) from childhood (Gen_8:21); yet the people of God are to purge evil from among them (Deu_17:7). The Lord is the final arbiter of whether something was good or evil; if something was evil in the eyes of the Lord, there is no further court of appeals (Deu_9:18; 1Ki_14:22). The day of the Lord's judgment is called an evil day, a day of reckoning and condemnation (Amo_6:3). Jacob would have undergone grave evil (i.e., pain, misery, and ultimate disaster) if he had lost Benjamin (Gen_44:34). The word can refer to circumstances as evil, as when the Israelite foremen were placed in a grave situation (Exo_5:19; 2Ki_14:10).
The word takes on the aspect of something disagreeable, unwholesome, or harmful. Jacob evaluated his life as evil and destructive (Gen_47:9; Num_20:5); and the Israelites considered the wilderness as a threatening, terrifying place. The Canaanite women were evil in the eyes of Isaac (i.e., displeasing [Gen_28:8]). The rabble's cry within Israel for meat was displeasing in the eyes of Moses (Num_11:10). This word describes the vicious animal that killed Joseph, so Jacob thought (Gen_37:33). The despondent countenances of persons can be described by this word; the baker's and the butler's faces were downcast because of their dreams (Gen_40:7). It can also describe one who is heavy in heart (Pro_25:20).
In a literal sense, the word depicts something that is of poor quality or even ugly in appearance. The weak, lean cows of Pharaoh's dream were decrepit, ugly-looking (Gen_41:3, Gen_41:20, Gen_41:27); poisonous drinking water was described as bad (2Ki_2:19; 2Ki_4:41). From these observations, it is clear that the word can be used to attribute a negative aspect to nearly anything.
Used as a noun, the word indicates realities that are inherently evil, wicked, or bad; the psalmist feared no evil (Psa_23:4). The noun also depicts people of wickedness, that is, wicked people. Aaron characterized the people of Israel as inherently wicked in order to clear himself (Exo_32:22). Calamities, failures, and miseries are all connotations of this word when it is used as a noun.
[COLOR="blue"]Now let's look at the Greek! [/COLOR]
Word Study
G2556
κακὸς
kakós; fem. kakḗ, neut. kakón, adj. Bad, worthless externally. Of a soldier, cowardly. In the NT evil, wicked, from the verb cházō or cházomai (n.f.), to give back, recede, retire, retreat in battle. One who is evil in himself and, as such, gets others in trouble.
(I) In a moral sense meaning wicked, vicious, bad in heart, conduct, and character (Mat_21:41; Mat_24:48; Phi_3:2; Rev_2:2, impostors). Of things (Mar_7:21, evil thoughts; Rom_13:3, evil works; 1Co_15:33, evil conversations; Col_3:5; Sept.: Pro_6:18; Pro_15:3). In the neut. tó kakón, and pl., tá kaká, evil, evil things, wickedness, fault, crime (Mat_27:23; Mar_15:14; Luk_23:22; Joh_18:23; Act_23:9; Rom_1:30; Rom_2:9; Rom_3:8; Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21; Rom_9:11; Rom_13:4; Rom_16:19; 1Co_10:6; 2Co_5:10; 2Co_13:7; 1Ti_6:10; Heb_5:14; Jam_1:13; 1Pe_3:12; 3Jo_1:11; Sept.: Pro_3:7).
(II) [/b]Actively causing evil[/b], i.e., hurtful, harmful (Rom_14:20; Tit_1:12, "ravenous beasts" [a.t.]; Rev_16:2; Sept.: Pro_16:4; Amo_6:3). In the neut., to kakón, evil, i.e., cause or source of evil (Jam_3:8); evil done to anyone, harm, injury (Act_16:28; Act_28:5; Rom_12:17, Rom_12:21; Rom_13:10; 1Co_13:5; 1Th_5:15; 1Pe_3:9, 1Pe_3:11). In words, evil speaking (1Pe_3:10; Sept.: Mic_7:3). Pl., tá kaká, evils, i.e., troubles, afflictions (Luk_16:25; Act_9:13; 2Ti_4:14; Sept.: Gen_44:34; Gen_48:16; Isa_46:7; Jer_14:8).
Deriv.: ákakos (G172), one without evil, upright; anexíkakos (G420), without evil, longsuffering; ekkakéō or egkakéō (G1573), to treat badly; kakía (G2549), wickedness, trouble; kakopoiós (G2555), evildoer; kakoúrgos (G2557), one who works evil; kakouchéō (G2558), to suffer adversity; kakóō (G2559), to ill-treat; kakṓs (G2560), badly.
Syn.: ponērós (G4190), malicious which indicates willful harm to others, an element not necessarily found in kakós.; kakía (G2549), wickedness, iniquity, evil, affliction.; phaúlos (G5337), trivial, bad in the sense of being worthless; saprós (G4550), corrupt, rotten, unfit for use, putrid; phthartós (G5349), corruptible; átopos, amiss, out of place; áthesmos (G113), contrary to custom; ánomos (G459), lawless as a characterization of the person himself in regard to obedience to the law.
Ant.: agathós (G18), beneficial in addition to being good; kalós (G2570), that which is intrinsically good, beautiful; chrēstós (G5543), good, gracious, kind, smooth; asteíos (G791), urbane, fair.
Strongs
G2556
κακός
kakos
kak-os'
Apparently a primary word; worthless (intrinsically such; whereas G4190 properly refers to effects), that is, (subjectively) depraved, or (objectively) injurious: - bad, evil, harm, ill, noisome, wicked.
G2549
Strongs
κακία
kakia
kak-ee'-ah
From G2556; badness, that is, (subjectively) depravity, or (actively) malignity, or (passively) trouble: - evil, malice (-iousness), naughtiness, wickedness.
G2549
Word Study
κακία
kakía; gen. kakías, fem. noun from kakós (G2556), bad. Wickedness as an evil habit of the mind, while ponēría (G4189) is the active outcome of the same. Ponēría is malevolence, not only doing evil, but being evil.
(I)Evil in a moral sense meaning wickedness of heart, life, and character (Act_8:22; 1Co_14:20 [cf. Mat_18:3; Jam_1:21; 1Pe_2:16; Sept.: Exo_32:12; Isa_29:20]).
(II)In an act. sense, especially where joined with ponēría (G4189), malevolence, malice, (1Co_5:8), as if ponēría, the endeavor to do evil to others, emanates from being inherently evil (kakía). See Eph_4:31; Col_3:8; Tit_3:3; 1Pe_2:1; Sept.: Pro_1:16; Nah_3:19.
(III) Evil, i.e., trouble, affliction (Mat_6:34; Sept.: Ecc_7:4).
Syn.: anomía (G458), lawlessness; hamartía (G266), sin; adikía (G93), unrighteousness; paranomía (G3892), transgression; húbris (G5196), insult, harm, reproach; phaúlon, the neut. of phaúlos (G5337) used as a noun, that which is trivial; adíkēma (G92), injustice, iniquity.
G4190
Strongs
πονηρός
ponēros
pon-ay-ros'
From a derivative of G4192; hurtful, that is, evil (properly in effect or influence, and thus differing from G2556, which refers rather to essential character, as well as from G4550, which indicates degeneracy from original virtue); figuratively calamitous; also (passively) ill, that is, diseased; but especially (morally) culpable, that is, derelict, vicious, facinorous; neuter (singular) mischief, malice, or (plural) guilt; masculine (singular) the devil, or (plural) sinners: - bad, evil, grievous, harm, lewd, malicious, wicked (-ness). See also G4191.
G4190
Word Study
πονηρός
ponērós; fem. ponērá, neut. ponērón, adj. from pónos (G4192), labor, sorrow, pain. Evil in a moral or spiritual sense, wicked, malicious, mischievous
.
(I) In an act. sense, evil which corrupts others, evil-disposed, malevolent, malignant, wicked.
(A) Of persons (Mat_5:45; Mat_7:11; Mat_12:34-35; Mat_13:49; Mat_18:32; Luk_6:35, Luk_6:45; Luk_11:13; Act_17:5; 2Th_3:2; Sept.: Est_7:6; Job_21:30). Pneúmata ponērá (pneúmata [G4151], spirits), evil spirits, malignant demons (Mat_12:45; Luk_7:21; Luk_8:2; Luk_11:26; Act_19:12-13, Act_19:15-16; Sept.: 1Sa_16:14 f.). With the def. art. ho ponērós, the evil one, Satan (Mat_13:19, Mat_13:38; Eph_6:16; 1Jo_2:13-14; 1Jo_3:12; 1Jo_5:18). See also Mat_5:37; Mat_6:13; Luk_11:4; Joh_17:15; 1Jo_5:19.
(B) Of things, such as the eye, an evil eye referring to envy (Mat_20:15; Mar_7:22); evil thoughts (1Ti_6:4; Jam_2:4). Particularly as causing pain or hurt, hurtful, with injurious words (Mat_5:11; Act_28:21; 3Jo_1:10; Sept.: Psa_64:6). Also painful, grievous (Rev_16:2; Sept.: Deu_28:35, Deu_28:59). The neut. with the def. art. tó ponērón, evil, evil intent, malice, wickedness (Mat_5:37, Mat_5:39). Also evil as inflicted, calamity, affliction.
(II) In the pass., evil, made evil, evil in nature or quality, bad, ill, vicious.
(A) Morally, of persons, meaning wicked, corrupt, an evildoer (1Co_5:13; 2Ti_3:13); an evil generation (Mat_12:39, Mat_12:45; Mat_16:4; Luk_11:29); evil age (Gal_1:4; Sept.: Deu_21:21; Isa_1:4; Isa_9:16); of a servant, remiss, slothful (Mat_25:26; Luk_19:22); of things, wicked, corrupt, as of works (Joh_3:19; Joh_7:7; Col_1:21; 2Ti_4:18; 1Jo_3:12; 2Jo_1:11); criminality (rhadioúrgēma [G4467]; Act_18:14; 1Th_5:22, "from every form of evil" [a.t.]; Heb_3:12; Heb_10:22; Jam_4:16; Sept.: Deu_17:7; 2Ki_17:13); of times, particularly as full of sorrow and affliction, evil, calamitous (Eph_5:16; Eph_6:13; Sept.: Gen_47:9; Psa_94:13). In the neut. with the def. art., tó ponērón, evil, wickedness, guilt (Luk_6:45; Rom_12:9; 1Jo_5:19). In the pl. tá ponērá, evil things, wicked deeds (Mar_7:23; Sept.: Deu_17:2; Jdg_2:11; Ecc_8:12); without the art. (Sept.: Psa_97:10; Hos_7:15).
(B) In a physical sense, as of external quality and condition, evil, bad, bad fruit (Mat_7:17-18). Of persons in reference to external state, dress (Mat_22:10, "bad and good," meaning high and low, rich and poor, a figure of speech indicating totality [merism]).
Deriv.: ponēría (G4189), evil, wickedness, maliciousness.
Syn.: kakós (G2556), bad character but not necessarily hurtful or malicious; phaúlos (G5337), slight, trivial, mean, bad, in the sense of being worthless, contemptible; kakoúrgos (G2557), an evil worker, malefactor; áthesmos (G113), lawless, contrary to custom; ánomos (G459), lawless; parabátēs (G3848), a transgressor; hamartōlós (G268), a sinner; ádikos (G94), unrighteous; kakopoiós (G2555), an evildoer; aschḗmōn (G809), uncomely; anáxios (G370), unworthy.
Ant.: agathós (G18), intrinsically good; kalós (G2570), practically good, for appearance or use; chrēstós (G5543), gentle, smooth, easy; agathopoiós (G17), a doer of good; aretḗ (G703), virtue; euschḗmōn (G2158), comely; áxios (G514), worthy.
Now that we have established the basics!
How did evil come into being?
Remember, be nice! As we are all seekers of the truth!
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2008, 07:01:55 PM
But for me, you are still trying to break down a spiritual reality by way of natural means. I am spirit . . .my soul is one with my spirit as they both live "in" one body . .but I am still three . .body, soul and spirit.
How can Jesus be a literal "son" to God? Who is the Mother? The Holy Ghost? Literally, you can divide, but they just don't fit. Spiritually, they were always one . . . and they all three converse one with another. God speaks to us through the experience of 'faith' in the cross by way of revelation "in" the Spirit . . .all three manifest, and all three are one.
I'm cool with your point of view . . . I just see it a little different is all.
Hi Nathan,
I'm glad you are cool with my point of view.
Even though you are composed of body, soul and spirit, that does not mean that there are three distince beings which make up Nathan.
Besides, the holy spirit is not a distince, separate entity apart from God. It is God's spirit.
You asked "How can Jesus be a literal "son" to God? Who is the Mother? The Holy Ghost?" Good question!
There were sons of God before the world was created. Also, Adam is called a son of God yet he had no mother.
When God begot the Son He immediately became the Father. He begot Jesus without a mother just as He begot all the other sons of God as in Job's day:
(Job 1:6) There was a day when the sons of God would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.
(Job 2:1) The day came around again when the sons of God came to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst to station himself before Yahweh.
(Job 38:7) When the stars of the morning jubilated together, And all the sons of God shouted with joy?
God could not eternally be the Father for the very terms "Father" and "Son" preclude eternalness from being inherrent in such terms. They actually show beginningness.
I am matching spiritual words with spiritual blessings (1 Cor.2:13).
Again pulling from the other forum...
Yes, indeed. This is a very good verse to start with. However, many here would say this is a mis-translation! They would start to show our modern bibles have replaced the word "evil" with calamity or disaster as representing the true meaning.
NASB Isa 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
NIV Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
ESV Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.
CEV Isa 45:7 I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all of this.
Now how is a Christian to get at the truth? We have the majority of bibles before the 1960's that read evil, and almost all bibles after that time reading calamity, and or disaster! What's going on? One could come to the conclusion that men are trying to alter the scriptures to remove any association of evil from God Himself! However, it did not start in the 1960's!
(Coverdale 1535) Isa 45:7 It is I yt created the light and darcknes, I make peace and trouble: Yee euen I the LORDE do all these thinges.
(Bishops 1568) Isa 45:7 It is I that created light and darknesse, I make peace and trouble: yea euen I the Lorde do all these thinges.
To clarify both of these Bibles are a translation from the Latin Vulgate with the Coverdale also including German text.
Latin Vulgate Isa 45:7 formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec
Malum From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Malum in se (plural mala in se) is a Latin phrase meaning wrong or evil in itself. This concept is a part of the "value consensus model" explanation of the origins of the criminal law. The phrase is used to refer to conduct thought to be inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct. It is distinguished from malum prohibitum, which is wrong only because it is prohibited. For example, murder of human beings is universally agreed to be wrong by other human beings, regardless of whether a law exists or where the conduct occurs, and is thus recognizably malum in se. In contrast, consider driving laws. In the US, people drive on the right-hand side of the road. In the UK and other states of the Commonwealth, people drive on the left-hand side. This is an example of a malum prohibitum law because the act is not inherently bad, but is forbidden by policy, as set forth by the policy-makers of the jurisdiction. Malum prohibitum crimes are criminal not because they are inherently bad, but because the prohibited act is forbidden by the policy of the state. Crimes such as larceny, rape and murder are considered malum in se. This concept was used to develop the various common law crimes. [1]
So where did the translators of the Coverdale and Bishops get the idea of trouble? As it appears Malum has moral deeds associated with it? I then thought it best to look at the Septuagint, as this translations was done directly by the Jews' themselves. Who better to understand their own language. What Greek word did they use for the hebrew word ra?
LXX Isa 45:7 εγω κατασκευασας ] φως και ποιησας σκοτος ο ποιων ειρηνην και κτιζων κακα [COLOR="SeaGreen"][SIZE="2"]2556[/SIZE][/COLOR] εγω κυριος ο θεος ο ποιων ταυτα παντα
So we have the Greek word κακα 2556 in place of Ra.
Word Study
G2556
κακὸς
kakós; fem. kakḗ, neut. kakón, adj. Bad, worthless externally. Of a soldier, cowardly. In the NT evil, wicked, from the verb cházō or cházomai (n.f.), to give back, recede, retire, retreat in battle. One who is evil in himself and, as such, gets others in trouble.
(I) In a moral sense meaning wicked, vicious, bad in heart, conduct, and character (Mat_21:41; Mat_24:48; Phi_3:2; Rev_2:2, impostors). Of things (Mar_7:21, evil thoughts; Rom_13:3, evil works; 1Co_15:33, evil conversations; Col_3:5; Sept.: Pro_6:18; Pro_15:3). In the neut. tó kakón, and pl., tá kaká, evil, evil things, wickedness, fault, crime (Mat_27:23; Mar_15:14; Luk_23:22; Joh_18:23; Act_23:9; Rom_1:30; Rom_2:9; Rom_3:8; Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21; Rom_9:11; Rom_13:4; Rom_16:19; 1Co_10:6; 2Co_5:10; 2Co_13:7; 1Ti_6:10; Heb_5:14; Jam_1:13; 1Pe_3:12; 3Jo_1:11; Sept.: Pro_3:7).
(II) Actively causing evil, i.e., hurtful, harmful (Rom_14:20; Tit_1:12, "ravenous beasts" [a.t.]; Rev_16:2; Sept.: Pro_16:4; Amo_6:3). In the neut., to kakón, evil, i.e., cause or source of evil (Jam_3:8); evil done to anyone, harm, injury (Act_16:28; Act_28:5; Rom_12:17, Rom_12:21; Rom_13:10; 1Co_13:5; 1Th_5:15; 1Pe_3:9, 1Pe_3:11). In words, evil speaking (1Pe_3:10; Sept.: Mic_7:3). Pl., tá kaká, evils, i.e., troubles, afflictions (Luk_16:25; Act_9:13; 2Ti_4:14; Sept.: Gen_44:34; Gen_48:16; Isa_46:7; Jer_14:8).
We now have a slight problem arising. The Greek word in no way suggest "trouble' or clamity. In fact, the Hebrew already have a word for "calamity!"
Let's now look at the Jewish Publication Society Bible of 1917.
JPS Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
It would appear that men, some in the past and definitely in modern times are trying to remove the word evil from our bible when it is associated at any time with God. This is what is making our study into evil much more difficult! Using the Septuagint as a guide, I would like to look at several O.T. verses associating evil with God. The LXX, does not uses the same greek word for evil every time. What does this mean?
So before we get into why evil exist, let's get a better picture of evil existing when associated with God. This should help us get a better understanding of how, when, and why, then hopefully what it means? As I'm learning right along with you, in this study. However, it does appear that the word evil in Isa 45;7 is used very much like the Hebrew word Ra when it is offered in the understanding of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. ( Gen 2:17 ) It is NOT the tree of the knowledge of Good and Calamity! This much is for sure!
Quote from: Pierac on December 16, 2008, 08:15:27 PM
Now back to the topic...
Now that we have established the basics!
How did evil come into being?
God brought evil into being.
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness,
Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim,
made all of these things."
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Here is another interesting verse. The correct read here is also evil! However, one needs to put this verse in context! If you keep reading you will see the evil is a reward of the deeds of sin.
Lam 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
I believe the Net Bible gives a good commentary on this verse!
Net Bible commentary: tn Heb "concerning his punishment." The noun חֵטְא ((ח) khet') has a broad range of meanings: (1) "sin," (2) "guilt of sin" and (3) "punishment for sin," which fits the context of calamity as discipline and punishment for sin (e.g., Lev_19:17; Lev_20:20; Lev_22:9; Lev_24:15; Num_9:13; Num_18:22; Num_18:32; Isa_53:12; Eze_23:49).
The metonymical (cause-effect) relation between sin and punishment is clear in the expressions חֵטְא מִשְׁפַט־מָוֶת ((ח) khet' mishpatmavet, "sin deserving death penalty," Deu_21:22) and חֵטְא מָוֶת (khet' mavet, "sin unto death," Deu_22:26). The point of this verse is that the punishment of sin can sometimes lead to death; therefore, any one who is being punished by God for his sins, and yet lives, has little to complain about.
Paul
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 08:23:21 PM
Quote from: Pierac on December 16, 2008, 08:15:27 PM
Now back to the topic...
Now that we have established the basics!
How did evil come into being?
God brought evil into being.
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness,
Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim,
made all of these things."
Keep reading Tony :thumbsup:
I ask myself how one book could create such a diversity of beliefs. The last I heard there are approximately 30 thousand different denominations of the church in the world today. How can this be? One book spinning off thousands of different beliefs? What's God doing? Why is this allowed? I believe the study of evil will offer some clues, maybe not any answers but surely more questions!
Let's continue...
KJV Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
NASB Amo 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?
Clark commentary:
Shall a trumpet be blown - The sign of alarm and invasion.
And the people not be afraid? - Not take the alarm, and provide for their defense and safety?
Shall there be evil in a city - Shall there be any public calamity on the wicked, that is not an effect of my displeasure? The word does not mean moral evil, but punishment for sin; calamities falling on the workers of iniquity. Natural evil is the punishment of moral evil: God sends the former when the latter is persisted in.
Let's look at this in practice.
Hab 1:6 "For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, That fierce and impetuous people Who march throughout the earth To seize dwelling places which are not theirs. 7 "They are dreaded and feared; Their justice and authority originate with themselves. 8 "Their horses are swifter than leopards And keener than wolves in the evening. Their horsemen come galloping, Their horsemen come from afar; They fly like an eagle swooping down to devour. 9 "All of them come for violence. Their horde of faces moves forward. They collect captives like sand. 10 "They mock at kings And rulers are a laughing matter to them. They laugh at every fortress And heap up rubble to capture it. 11 "Then they will sweep through like the wind and pass on. But they will be held guilty, They whose strength is their god."
Now look at why the prophet is so up set! God uses the "evil" Chaldeans to bring judgment. Here's what he has to say to God.
Hab 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they?
Yes, the prophet is confused as to why God would use evil to destroy/punish a lesser evil. So make no mistake with Amos! When he writes: "shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? You better believe the people will not just experience calamity but evil greater than themselves!
So here we have again evil, but evil used in a judgment situation. Much like in Lam 3;38-39.
So far the focus is that God is using existing evil, but Himself not the cause of it. This may very well be brought over into Isa 45:7. yet, it's a little more difficult because punishment of sins is not the focus here, but the power and might of God Himself!
The point I want to make is that most of the verses speaking of God creating evil in some way can be shown to lead towards the judgment of sin itself. Yes, it may be more difficult in some verses but not completely outside the possibility. More of an idea of God using evil than creating it altogether. So this puts us back to square one. Did God create evil? If so, how and why?
HOWEVER, The book of Job offers many clues, I would say many more questions than actual answers! Any thoughts on Job?
Paul
Quote from: TonySince Jesus said he was ascending to the disciple's God, he was surely saying that, in the absolute sense, "I am not your God. I am ascending to where your God is, in heaven. Not only that but I am ascending to your Father. I am not your Father. Your Father is in heaven, hallowed be His name!
No where in scripture does Jesus say, "I am not your God."
Not that Jesus in his human incarnation was our God in an absolute sense because he was also fully man.
But, he never stops anyone from worshipping him, as the angels do.
Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
Quote from: firstborn888 on December 14, 2008, 09:32:42 AM
Not one sparrow falls without your Father. In him we live and move and have our being, absolutely. God and creation cannot be separated as He actively sustains life and existence for all. The only separation is in our minds, not in spiritual reality. As we understand this so the world will transformed until the knowledge of glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.
AMEN! :boogie:
(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
PeacE...
...willieH :ty:
This is a much more difficult topic than many would agree upon! A person on the other forum stated..."never was any function or purpose for evil, except to manifest itself and thereby stand to be eliminated by God."
I think this would go against what God has to say on this subject! Yes, I would agree on the understanding of the Spiritual realm, but just what is happening in this Spiritual realm? I believe the book of Job offers some insight in several different ways.
We all know the story so I will only cover specific details. First, let's look at Job, the man.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.
We are told up front that Job was blameless, upright, and turned away evil. Yet, Job experienced severe evil at the hand of Satan. Why? Why did God do this to him? Yes, it was God that was the cause.
Job 1:8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
Who brought up the topic of Job? Satan or God? Yes, it was God. Since you already know the story, you know that Job was a pawn in a conversation between Satan and God. So did Job suffered evil to prove a point for God? Did this happen to Job so God could be correct in His assessment? What did Satan say?
Job 1:11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your
face."
Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Now why did God put Job in Satan's hands? And not use His own?
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
It was because God could not! As shown in James 1:13. God could not tempt Job to curse Him! But Satan could!
Job knew very well what he was experiencing was evil and not some calamity!
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
We would all agree that God does not use evil without purpose! So what was the purpose here with Job? Are we to be like Job when he says:
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
So what was the reason? Why did Job, an upright man, suffer evil at the hand of Satan?
So what is the purpose of evil for the Christian? For we surely experience it!
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
We would all agree that we wrestle against spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places! But where did these forces come from?
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
I thought Satan created evil? Yet, Col 1:16 is telling us all thrones or dominions or authorities were created by God! Let's see how evil is used against Christians.
Rev 2:10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
We are tested by it!
2Co 12:7 So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated.
CLV Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
We are humbled by it!
Mat 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus *said to him, [COLOR="red"]"I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.[/COLOR]
Mat 5:39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 [COLOR="red"]"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.[/COLOR]
We are brought into obedience by it!
Heb 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Jesus suffered much evil from the hands of men!
With the help of Christ in us we can overcome it!
1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
Rev 2:7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
Rev 2:11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Evil is part of our training process! Without evil, we could not know good. Evil is used through out our Bible, for both positive and what would appear negative purposes.
I think what the Bible tells us about Satan holds many clues to the concept of evil, and they do not hold to the views of orthodox Christianity. Why is this mysterious character of the Bible, whom we are taught is the creator of evil allowed so much control?
Paul
Stay on topic people, I don't want to see this thread locked. :sigh:
Paul
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 08:23:21 PM
Quote from: Pierac on December 16, 2008, 08:15:27 PM
Now back to the topic...
Now that we have established the basics!
How did evil come into being?
God brought evil into being.
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness,
Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim,
made all of these things."
Yes, it was the tree in the garden that al Adam was instructed not to touch, remember?
16 But the Lord God warned him, "You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden—17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die."--Gen 2
Quote from: TonyBesides, the holy spirit is not a distince, separate entity apart from God. It is God's spirit.
Really. So how does Jesus order God to send us his Spirit? Does God follow Jesus' instructions? Is Jesus higher than God, therefore?
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.--John 16
And, why is one of the names for Jesus, "Counselor" ? Isn't the Counselor the Holy Spirit?
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
"If" the Holy Spirit is a separate entity . .then why did Jesus have to wait until he ascended into the Spirit in order for the Spirit to be poured out on all flesh??? Unless IT WAS THE SAME SPIRIT IN CHRIST THAT IS IN US.
willieH: Hi brother T... :hithere:
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2008, 02:54:17 AM
Tony, "If" Jesus is a Son as your mind sees a son to be, when did Jesus then "become" this son?
Good question!
Since God sent His Son into the world, I believe Jesus was His Son before He sent Him into the world.
The Bible does not say exactly when Jesus became His son, but it had to be before all in the heavens and on the earth was created.
One thing is for certain though, the Bible never says that God and His Son are co-eternal or of the same substance or any such Church ideas from Rome.
My :2c:
IN TIME...As I see it, there is no "when" in ETERNITY... only in TIME...
Scripture designates that,
JESUS and
YHVH reflect the SAME attribute by noting they are both UNCHANGING... (
Heb 13:8 / Mal 3:6)
Anything which
"BECOMES" something, has to have
changed from what it
was before it "became" what it NOW
is...
JESUS, in the ETERNAL realm ...never "BECAME" a SON... He ALWAYS ...
IS... a SON.
Any SON, ...(
JESUS... being the FIRST [spiritual son] in
THIS WORLD), is a SON in THIS WORLD with a beginning, because he/she entered TIME which has beginnings and endings...
IN ETERNITY... The "spoken" WORD is a "SON" to the SILENT THOUGHT or knowledge... which does not mean it had a "beginning" ...if... indeed, ...the THOUGHT is ETERNAL... :dontknow:
For example: If GOD ALWAYS
KNEW ALL things in His heart, does it mean that in SPEAKING those things, that the KNOWLEDGE imparted in the SPOKEN WORD, ...
began... at the moment of His SPEECH???
Or is it better observed, that His KNOWLEDGE ...found manifest IN His SPEECH, ...is ETERNAL because it emerged from His HEART?
The "AUDIBLE manifestation" has a "beginning", but its ESSENCE which is found in the THOUGHT, is the
SAME as is the THOUGHT, ...
ETERNAL... :thumbsup:
ALL SONS are of the ESSENCE of
YHVH... which means He, in the ETERNAL, ...
IS...
ALL IN ALL... :yes:
btw...
There IS
no "Problem with EVIL"... EVIL is part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD, and GOOD is part of the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL... NO PROBLEM! :laugh:
They are
ONE KNOWLEDGE, being both sides of that
ONE KNOWLEDGE... found rooted in
ONE TREE.
Just as is UP part of DOWN, or EAST dependent upon WEST... :dontknow:
Is UP a "problem" for DOWN? :pointlaugh:
Or IN a "problem" for OUT? :pointlaugh:
(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
PeacE...
...willieH :ty:
willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:
No offense sister M, ...but this post is just more of your continuing
LITERAL vision of the WORD...
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2008, 04:08:25 PM
What if God has left the planet?
What if God sent Adam instead, and then Jesus?
What if how this planet goes is up to us?
Then GOD is no longer ALMIGHTY, because it is now NOT "up to Him"...
QuoteWe are given our choice between death and life, and if we keep choosing death, we will get death.
If that "choice" is ours alone, without aid or involvement from Him, ...again... He's NO LONGER, ALMIGHTY...
The TRUTH is that GOD set up what the DARKNESS of death IS...
(1) How it comes about,
(2) when it comes about,
(3) why it comes about, and
(4) its eternal deletion in favor of LIFE and LIGHT
QuoteBut it's not as if the final ante won't be totalled up at the end.
It WILL, and in THAT END... Every knee will have bowed and tongue confessed, which IS the POINT of this whole thing...
These quoted verses have to do with NOW, not later:
Quote14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
--Mat 25
Many, in reading, studying and following
CHRIST often make... this life to be a competition in which WE ACHIEVE things, which are due "REWARD" in Eternity... and read the Scripture accordingly... seeking REWARD in Eternity...
My :2c: ...I see this as amiss... for our SEEKING should not encompass the desire for GAIN
for ourselves within its motive... rather, it is to SEEK to KNOW, that we might have MORE to GIVE...
to others... :happygrin: ...NOT to obtain an extra "swimming pool" for ourselves in Heaven... :sigh:
The KINGDOM of HEAVEN is NOW... the OUTER DARKNESS (outside the LIGHT) is NOW... The JOY of the Lord is NOW... MEN serve themselves or God, NOW... Men recieve or don't recieve REWARD, NOW
Those who faithfully serve will be given MORE of GOD and His truth... If we serve lightly or dont indulge ourselves in His WORD, we are as the servant who buried his given talent... but if we DILIGENTLY seek, then MORE is availed... which means MORE of HIS TRUTH is become IN US... to impart to, and BENEFIT, others...
When men believe, SEEK, and then preach and partake according to ELECTION (choosing of GOD), then men are part of the KINGDOM of HEAVEN, ...NOW...
When men do not believe in GOD, or believe his own distorted variations of GOD (which is also GOD's choosing), then he IS in OUTER DARKNESS (outside the LIGHT), ...NOW...
If men believe in GOD NOW, then they are ENTERED and are part of the JOY of LORD, ...NOW...
(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
PeacE...
...willieH :ty:
Quote from: WillieHNo offense sister M, ...but this post is just more of your continuing LITERAL vision of the WORD...
LOL. That's me. I always do things backwards. I started in the spiritual and now I am in the literal.
QuoteThen GOD is no longer ALMIGHTY, because it is now NOT "up to Him"...
Sure he is--if it was his decision to leave it to his bondservants and servants. Then he has made the sovereign choice to leave it up to us [for a time].
QuoteThese quoted verses have to do with NOW, not later:
Isn't that what I just said in my post?
QuoteMany, in reading, studying and following CHRIST often make... this life a competition in which WE ACHIEVE things, which are due "REWARD" in Eternity... and read the Scripture accordingly... seeking REWARD in Eternity...
My ...I see this as amiss... for our SEEKING should not encompass the desire for GAIN for ourselves within its motive... rather, it is to SEEK to KNOW, that we might have MORE to GIVE... to others... ...NOT to obtain an extra "swimming pool" for ourselves in Heaven...
I don't believe I ever said that. However, Paul did, hoping for a 'better resurrection,' and 'running the race ..[for the prize].
QuoteIf men believe in GOD NOW, then they are ENTERED and are part of the JOY of LORD, ...NOW...
Yes, I agree--tada! But, my thoughts are for the others...
Quote from: Pierac on December 16, 2008, 08:42:05 PM
Stay on topic people, I don't want to see this thread locked. :sigh:
Paul
Paul, I think you might be asking for the impossible.
But in a sense they are staying on track. You see, Paul, it was brought up that God is currently bringing evil on the earth. Then Molly stated that God left the earth when Christ left the earth. Then we got on the subject of if God indeed did leave the earth in order to prove that God is still here and still bringing about evil.
The basic meaning of evil is "smashing."
What is evil? Read the book of Job and see all that happened to Job, his family and possessions. Then read this:
Job 42:11 All his brothers and all his sisters came to him and all his acquaintances from before, and they ate bread with him in his house.
Then they condoled with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him. Each of them gave to him one kesitah, and each, one pendant of gold.
Once you see all that came upon Job, then you will get an inkling of what evil is.
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 08:00:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2008, 07:16:11 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 02:19:37 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 15, 2008, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 15, 2008, 01:55:51 PM
Hi Molly,
If Jesus is God, then Who sent Him into the world to save sinners?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with, God [YHVH] and the Word was God [YHVH].
John 1:1
Quote
Sorry Brian but that does not answer my question.
Joh 3:17 For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."
God dispatched His Son into the world so that the world would be saved through him.
John 3:17 does not say that "God sent Himself into the world."
While Jesus was on the earth He heard God's voice above coming from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus is God, was He the greatest ventriloquist ever?
While Jesus was on earth he taught His disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in Heaven." He did not teach them to pray "Your Father which is right in front of you."
Well, I'd say you're not taking into consideration the role of the Son of Man.
Now tell me how John can say He was God.
How can Thomas can call Him "my Lord and my God."
How Paul can call Him "our great God and Savior"
Without bearing false witness and committing blasphemy?
How Tony, how?
Hi Brian,
This is simple really. Thomas was saying "My Lord and my subjector/placer."
Paul said "to us there is one God, the Father." So in what way are we to take "our great God and Saviour"? Jesus can carry the title God. Jesus is our great subjector and Lord.
Surely you would not want the Scriptures to contradict Scriptures would you?
Since Jesus said he was ascending to the disciple's God, he was surely saying that, in the absolute sense, "I am not your God. I am ascending to where your God is, in heaven. Not only that but I am ascending to your Father. I am not your Father. Your Father is in heaven, hallowed be His name!
God told Moses that he, Moses, is God to pharaoh and Aaron was his prophet. Was God raising up a false God to pharaoh?
So in the sense that God made Moses "God" or "Subjector" so did God make Jesus God or "Subjector" of the whole human race.
Not meaning to chime in but, there's no such word as "Subjector".
God told Moses that, He God, would make Moses
like God to Pharaoh.
Isaiah, John, Thomas and Paul are not God. God can say "I will make you
like God" without committing blasphemy because He's
God.
Isaih, John, Thomas and Paul are not God. Show one place where anyone besides God refers to Moses as God in any way. And Isaiah, John, Thomas and Paul don't say
like God.
How do you want to reword,
"
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Is.9:6
That's two times he's called God in one sentence.
Are you a "Jehovah's Witness" by any chance? :dontknow:
Peace.
Quote from: MacphersonThat's two times he's called God in one sentence.
:thumbsup:
(Three times for us 'trinitarians': Counsellor (Holy Spirit), the Mighty God (El Gibbor), and the everlasting Father.)
willieH: Hi Mac... :hithere:
Nice to see you, "jumping right in!" :thumbsup:
Just for fun... "SUBJECTOR" is in fact, ...a WORD...
Quote from: MacPherson on December 17, 2008, 09:55:10 PMNot meaning to chime in but, there's no such word as "Subjector".
Of course there IS bro!
Tony just used it! That it does not currently appear in the dictionary does NOT mean it is NOT a "word"... There are many words which have come to BE found defined in the Dictionary of the English language, after ENOUGH usage of them necessitates them to be defined... Because they are not DICTIONARY defined, does not mean they are not WORDS...
A DICTIONARY, is but a History of specific letter groupings, in a given language, which gives definitions of those letter groupings, ...NOT a "written in stone" EVERLASTING notation of what IS or IS NOT a "word", or CAN or CANNOT BE considered a "word"! :laughing7:
Example: "AIN'T"... this word CURRENTLY appears in the DICTIONARY of the English language, but upon its first appearance of lingual usages in English, was NOT a member of that collection, nor "defined" by it. :dontknow:
How about "HOOD"... which by "STREET" definition is COMMONLY USED as a WORD understood and meaning "NEIGHBORHOOD", ...but is currently, NOT found DEFINED as such in the DICTIONARY? :dontknow:
MERRIAM-WEBSTER online dictionary:
hood
10 entries found.
1hood (noun)
2hood (noun)
3hood (noun)
-hood
Hood
Hood
Hood
Robin Hood
Hood, Mount
Hood Canal
Main Entry: 1hood
Pronunciation: \ˈhu̇d\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hōd; akin to Old High German huot head covering, huota guard
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1): a flexible covering for the head and neck (2): a protective covering for the head and face b: a covering for a hawk's head and eyes c: a covering for a horse's head ; also : blinder
2 a: an ornamental scarf worn over an academic gown that indicates by its color the wearer's college or university b: a color marking or crest on the head of an animal or an expansion of the head that suggests a hood
3 a: something resembling a hood in form or use b: a cover for parts of mechanisms ; specifically : the movable metal covering over the engine of an automobile cchiefly British : a top cover over the passenger section of a vehicle usually designed to be folded back d: an enclosure or canopy provided with a draft for carrying off fumes, sprays, smokes, or dusts e: a covering for an opening (as a companion hatch) on a boat
— hood transitive verb
— hood·like \-ˌlīk\ adjective As we move in time, ...current definitions within the Dictionary are evolving to gain additional meanings as well...
GAY, for instance! It once by Dictionary definition only meant "HAPPY" or "MERRY"... but today also means "homosexual" and, in street lingo... "lame"... :laughing7:
WORDS are WORDS, if someone uses them (subjector)... or gain new perspectives, as people apply them in a new usage (gay)... :cloud9:
Not trying to stir you up new brother... :mblush: just noting that such indications as noting ..."subjector" as not a WORD, is a "straw man" proposal which distracts from the point you, in following its notation, endeavor to make... :declare:
I'll answer the rest your post, in my next post... :wink1:
(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
PeacE...
...willieH :ty:
Quote from: Mollee on December 17, 2008, 10:06:31 PM
Quote from: MacphersonThat's two times he's called God in one sentence.
:thumbsup:
(Three times for us 'trinitarians': Counsellor (Holy Spirit), the Mighty God (El Gibbor), and the everlasting Father.)
And for "quatritarians" (Prince of Peace) :laughing7:
And for "quintritarains" (Wonderful) :laughing7:
Jus kidn' ya sister M... :cloud9:
If the notations given in
Isaiah 9:6, were indicating the number of "persons", then there are FIVE, not THREE! :dontknow:
However, a number of "persons" is not what is therein being stated... these notations are of ONE BEING which is continually noted by Isaiah in his writings as
YHVH -- ALONE, and IS all these things:
(Is 44:8 / 43:11 / 45:5, 14, 15, 18, 22) ...which is the Father
and Son as well as being Counsellor, Wonderful and Prince of Peace...
YHVH is ALL in ALL... the ALL that He is "IN", is found to be Himself... spin that around your crib a taste!
Order is defined in LIFE, by a FATHER being first, and from Him, emerges sons... Name one species that changes this order... :dontknow:
YHVH began the human race from ONE FATHER -- Adam, from which ALL subsequent "SONS" came forth...
A SON is
ALWAYS preceeded by his FATHER.... a FATHER is
NEVER preceeded by HIS SON... :dontknow:
It is soooooooo simple, yet most don't get it... :sigh:
His FATHER was
YHVH, ...no one "sired"
YHVH, however ALL have come forth from...
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Quote from: MacPherson on December 17, 2008, 09:55:10 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 08:00:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2008, 07:16:11 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 16, 2008, 02:19:37 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 15, 2008, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: Tony N on December 15, 2008, 01:55:51 PM
Hi Molly,
If Jesus is God, then Who sent Him into the world to save sinners?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with, God [YHVH] and the Word was God [YHVH].
John 1:1
Quote
Sorry Brian but that does not answer my question.
Joh 3:17 For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."
God dispatched His Son into the world so that the world would be saved through him.
John 3:17 does not say that "God sent Himself into the world."
While Jesus was on the earth He heard God's voice above coming from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus is God, was He the greatest ventriloquist ever?
While Jesus was on earth he taught His disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in Heaven." He did not teach them to pray "Your Father which is right in front of you."
Well, I'd say you're not taking into consideration the role of the Son of Man.
Now tell me how John can say He was God.
How can Thomas can call Him "my Lord and my God."
How Paul can call Him "our great God and Savior"
Without bearing false witness and committing blasphemy?
How Tony, how?
Hi Brian,
This is simple really. Thomas was saying "My Lord and my subjector/placer."
Paul said "to us there is one God, the Father." So in what way are we to take "our great God and Saviour"? Jesus can carry the title God. Jesus is our great subjector and Lord.
Surely you would not want the Scriptures to contradict Scriptures would you?
Since Jesus said he was ascending to the disciple's God, he was surely saying that, in the absolute sense, "I am not your God. I am ascending to where your God is, in heaven. Not only that but I am ascending to your Father. I am not your Father. Your Father is in heaven, hallowed be His name!
God told Moses that he, Moses, is God to pharaoh and Aaron was his prophet. Was God raising up a false God to pharaoh?
So in the sense that God made Moses "God" or "Subjector" so did God make Jesus God or "Subjector" of the whole human race.
Not meaning to chime in but, there's no such word as "Subjector".
God told Moses that, He God, would make Moses like God to Pharaoh.
Isaiah, John, Thomas and Paul are not God. God can say "I will make you like God" without committing blasphemy because He's God.
Isaih, John, Thomas and Paul are not God. Show one place where anyone besides God refers to Moses as God in any way. And Isaiah, John, Thomas and Paul don't say like God.
How do you want to reword,
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Is.9:6
That's two times he's called God in one sentence.
Are you a "Jehovah's Witness" by any chance? :dontknow:
Peace.
Nope, never been a Jehovah's Witness.
Literally in the Hebrew it is "to Pharaoh God I give you see! Moses" It stands on its own.
QuoteIsaiah, John, Thomas and Paul are not God.
I never said nor intimated they were.
The basic idea behind "Theos" is "Placer." If you place a person somewhere you theos (or a derivative of theos) them somewhere.
The Hebrew "Elohim" would be "Theos" in Greek and can be Placer or Subjector.
QuoteHow do you want to reword,
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Is.9:6
"For a Boy, He is born to us,
A Son, He is given to us,
And the chieftainship shall come to be on His shoulder,
And one chall call His name Marvelous;
Counsel to the master shall he bring,
Unto the chief, well-being" (Concordant Version Isaiah 9:6)
So God is still here on the earth and in heaven (He fills both). If evil hath overtaken a city, did God not do it?
Isa 9:6 For3588 unto us a child3206 is born,3205 unto us a son1121 is given:5414 and the government4951 shall be upon5921 his shoulder:7926 and his name8034 shall be1961 called7121 Wonderful,6382 Counselor,3289 The mighty1368 God,410 The everlasting5703 Father,1 The Prince8269 of Peace.7965
"Father"
H1
אב
'âb
awb
A primitive word; father in a literal and immediate, or figurative and remote application: - chief, (fore-) father ([-less]), X patrimony, principal. Compare names in "Abi-"
H1. You can't get more Alpha than that.
Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Quote
Nope, never been a Jehovah's Witness.
Is there any particular sect or denomination you learned this from?
Quote
Literally in the Hebrew it is "to Pharaoh God I give you see! Moses" It stands on its own.
Nonetheless it was God Himself who conferred it and not through anyone else.
And the above is still worded differently than what the prophet and apostles said to and about Jesus.
QuoteIsaiah, John, Thomas and Paul are not God.
Quote
I never said nor intimated they were.
I was making a point that the only reference you have so far for "Placer or Subjector" is God talking directly to Moses.
Quote
The basic idea behind "Theos" is "Placer." If you place a person somewhere you theos (or a derivative of theos) them somewhere.
The Hebrew "Elohim" would be "Theos" in Greek and can be Placer or Subjector.
Where can I find this from someone who's considered a respected authority?
QuoteHow do you want to reword,
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Is.9:6
Quote
"For a Boy, He is born to us,
A Son, He is given to us,
And the chieftainship shall come to be on His shoulder,
And one chall call His name Marvelous;
Counsel to the master shall he bring,
Unto the chief, well-being" (Concordant Version Isaiah 9:6)
What does it say in the original Hebrew?