How to live a good moral christian life

[Molly]

I think maybe where I misunderstood you molly is when you say "you" are waiting for someone else to do something.   We are never told to wait on anyone,  we are to do and not become bitter because things are not progressing how we like. 

I am waiting for the stone uncut by human hands, for the numbers to reach critical mass, for the feet of clay and iron to be smashed, for the mountain that will fill the earth.  It's not so much to ask for--a world filled with truth, if only evil men would repent.


Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Not just me--all of creation is waiting.

[Molly]

It is to get people to realize that we try to love Christ, but as Peter did, we deny him every day,  EVERYONE does.

Acts 5:15
Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Sick people get healed on earth, that does not invalidate a thing I have said.

You can be healed of cancer and be spiritually DEAD.

My point was--Peter changed.

Nevertheless, even as his old clueless self, he loved Christ and followed him everywhere.


Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think maybe where I misunderstood you molly is when you say "you" are waiting for someone else to do something.   We are never told to wait on anyone,  we are to do and not become bitter because things are not progressing how we like. 

I am waiting for the stone uncut by human hands, for the numbers to reach critical mass, for the feet of clay and iron to be smashed, for the mountain that will fill the earth.  It's not so much to ask for--a world filled with truth, if only evil men would repent.

Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Not just me--all of creation is waiting.

Well, the issue is spiritual to me and it will happen.  Men will repent or there is no point in believing the UR message, but I do not ask for the physical things the bible makes no promise for.

[Molly]

well, I'm talking about Christians--per the title of this thread. 

And these sure sound like promises to me--





9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

--Isa 11





1The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

2It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

3Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

4Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

--Isa 35

[Paul Hazelwood]

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

[Molly]

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Of course--because he is kicking off a spiritual battle between good and evil which good will win--if only enough would join the army.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Of course--because he is kicking off a spiritual battle between good and evil which good will win--if only enough would join the army.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

[Craig]

Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

[Molly]

Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

yeah tell that to all the parents of the kids who are dying of drug overdose--while the Christian population of this country does nothing--year after year.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

yeah tell that to all the parents of the kids who are dying of drug overdose--while the Christian population of this country does nothing--year after year.

I do,  I tell them to never give up on thier kids, never let them think there is no hope and one day they will see the spiritual light. The problem most wont see is Romans 8:20

Our freedom is misunderstood, we have the freedom to make choices amongst a corrupt sin filled earth.  Paul one of the saints did things he did not want to do because sin was within him. 

And the verse that keeps getting ignored for what it says.  JESUS DID NOT COME TO BRING PEACE ON EARTH.

So if our peace is set in stone it cannot be in the hope for an earthly peace, the only thing left is spiritual.

But until people are given a spiritual light,  we cannot be all distraught that Christians aren't doing anything many of them call themselves Christians and haven't been given the light yet either.

Thats why I do not side with total freedom of will and circumstance nor side with the totality that we are just puppets and whatever is is.   There is a balance because if there is moderation in all things, then that includes what our will is and isn't capable of at any given moment.

We cannot live our lives trying to fix a corrupt earth that is not fixable through us.  We must live our lives to share the hope that is within us with faith and hope that when this earth passes away, the rewards have not vanished with it.

[Craig]

Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

yeah tell that to all the parents of the kids who are dying of drug overdose--while the Christian population of this country does nothing--year after year.

You have no disagreement, that is my beef with Christians and those who think there is no right and wrong in God's creation that we are accountable and responsible for. We should be doing more than just sitting around on our thumbs.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

You are misunderstanding Paul's point, there those who we cannot reach and suffering does exist. Though there is something deeper which sets creation free from suffering and that is the Spirit of God. That doesn't stop us from going out and reaching those who are indeed reachable and living a life of servitude to God for all men as Ambassadors.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

yeah tell that to all the parents of the kids who are dying of drug overdose--while the Christian population of this country does nothing--year after year.

You have no disagreement, that is my beef with Christians and those who think there is no right and wrong in God's creation that we are accountable and responsible for. We should be doing more than just sitting around on our thumbs.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

You are misunderstanding Paul's point, there those who we cannot reach and suffering does exist. Though there is something deeper which sets creation free from suffering and that is the Spirit of God. That doesn't stop us from going out and reaching those who are indeed reachable and living a life of servitude to God for all men as Ambassadors.

Agreed.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi again all  :girlheart:

Since I am still very new to all this and lots of you have been living "The Good Christian Life" for a while now (not that I never believed in God Almighty and Lord Jesus Christ - just never really lived as best I could), I thought you could give your thoughts and outlines (supported biblically of course) of how to live the way God wants us to. Things like should we give up television or sport or music.

Looking forward to all your answers

Dee

Hi DeeDee,

Sorry I did not address your question directly.   The main problem I see with most religious instruction on how to live a Godly life is that there is not just one way of instruction.  You can buy as many books and get as many opinions and many of them leave you empty and frustrated and unpeaceful or discontent.

But many have one false thing in common and that is the belief that the more you do right the more you are pleasing God and therefore the better your life will be.

The circumstances your in has nothing to do with how much you please or don't please God.  If you have done wrong things, it is most likely that you simply are Reaping what you Sow. And then there is just life that brings the things it does and our personal actions probably had nothing to do with it.


Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


Whether you are reaping physical consequenses , emotional or spiritual, none of it has anything to do with Gods displeasure in you.   The teachings that God gives and withholds blessings in that manner is a lie.

I read the other day where someone wrote  "I am glad God is on my side, or rather I'm on his" 

Someone asked, "what do you mean"  The person responded that their circumstances worked out how they liked it because they served God"

As difficult as it is to critisize a view like that, it is a lie.

Because that lie will make you think that everytime you do something wrong that God is there pulling the plug on his spirit.

The other side of things is that God is so fuzzy wuzzy that it does not matter what you do.   Of course there is a right and wrong, but God is there as a father to teach us what is right, to help us understand that we are to repent so that we can grow and help others grow, not so we can avoid the monster.

Changes within us can be painful, they can be difficult, but the end result is that we are perfected in christ.   Yes, I believe we should try to correct our bretheren, NOT in condemnation, but for the hope and glory of their spiritual growth.

Take heart, that there is nothing you can do, really, nothing,  that will separate you from God, nothing that will cause him to love you less.   He wants you to repent and he will guide you to it,  it is his promise, even if he seems vacant sometimes.


2Pt 3:9 . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


He is not willing for DeeDee to perish, he is longsuffering to DeeDee and that She should come to repentance.

Thats Gods promise for you.

[Molly]

Because that lie will make you think that everytime you do something wrong that God is there pulling the plug on his spirit.

King David found out that wasn't a lie, didn't he?


7And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

8And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

9Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

10Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

12For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

--2 Samuel 12

[Paul Hazelwood]

Because that lie will make you think that everytime you do something wrong that God is there pulling the plug on his spirit.

King David found out that wasn't a lie, didn't he?

He reaped what he sowed,  God loved David no less than he did before. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Bad things happen to people and some Christians teach a lie that if something bad happens it was because you was not pleasing God enough.

It works multiple ways, our actions have consequenses, but this corrupt life also exists and we are subject to  it.  It has nothing to do with our ability to please God to avoid these things.  It is a lie to teach such nonsense.

[rosered]

Bad things happen to people and some Christians teach a lie that if something bad happens it was because you was not pleasing God enough.

It works multiple ways, our actions have consequenses, but this corrupt life also exists and we are subject to  it.  It has nothing to do with our ability to please God to avoid these things.  It is a lie to teach such nonsense.

Love what you said Paul here
  you know Peter  really blessed me here to say that  God will/desire  it that you suffer for doing good instead of evildoing   
and lot of the way we speak and treat one another carrys  a lot of weight , with God anyways  , the world will hate you it hated Christ presence first
and the Presence of Christs spirit in you will be no different ......

but keeping your COOL is so much easier said, than done  :msealed:


1 PETER 3 ;9not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

10For,
         "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS,
         MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.
    11"HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD;
         HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.
    12"FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
         AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER,
         BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL."

13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?

14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

part of the Holy Spirit conviction  to me is knowing your conscience  and being aware of it troubling you ,for harming in anger and lack of control , I am so guilty of this  personally 
   such a big difference  from the devils accusing spirit when you KNOW you are innocent  from the accusations  being made 

GOD sees it , hears it and Knows it too !  the  perfect  Judge is present
  to give  sentance   and  what if they/you  do the tresspass / it ignorantly 

  without knowledge ?  thats where I think they stay in a place of  being watched  by the Lord    and if they do it knowing the Truth  there is no more excuse  , Jesus did not die in Vain /for nothing 

 

[Molly]

Bad things happen to people and some Christians teach a lie that if something bad happens it was because you was not pleasing God enough.

It works multiple ways, our actions have consequenses, but this corrupt life also exists and we are subject to  it.  It has nothing to do with our ability to please God to avoid these things.  It is a lie to teach such nonsense.

That's what Job's 'friends' said--you must have done something to bring this on yourself.

But, we know that isn't true, because we know the whole story--the discussion that went on in heaven.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Bad things happen to people and some Christians teach a lie that if something bad happens it was because you was not pleasing God enough.

It works multiple ways, our actions have consequenses, but this corrupt life also exists and we are subject to  it.  It has nothing to do with our ability to please God to avoid these things.  It is a lie to teach such nonsense.

That's what Job's 'friends' said--you must have done something to bring this on yourself.

But, we know that isn't true, because we know the whole story--the discussion that went on in heaven.

Yes, in Jobs case circumstances beyond his control did not happen because of his displeasure to God.

However, if a person jumps off the roof of a 3 story building,  you reap the consequenses of that action.

If you do not live a good life, indeed, you may miss out on eartly treasures and rewards. But I won't sugar coat that we may have to suffer through our accountability. None of that has to do with God loving us more or less. 


I believe the issue DeeDee is facing is living a life less than desirable and feeling as if God may love Her less and therefor directly acting to make her life less desirable that what she might physically hope for.

If anyone teaches that DeeDee should feel as if God loves her less and that is the cause of many of her circumstances, it is a Lie.   And no, I will not sit around doing nothing while lies are being taught like that because it is a spiritual thing to understand that in the midst of what we might believe is utter failure, God is not willing that our spirit perish.

[Nathan]

Nathan,

One of the responces I got when talking about my friends drug habits and how that is hurting his wife is that God is doing it and thats just the way it is.  That whatever will be will be till God decides otherwise.  The implication is that God is tempting him, when scripture states God will not do that but provide the escape.

The way of escape is just whatever will be will be?   

The implication was that my friend was doing nothing wrong.   I see someone saying "there is no right and wrong only Love"

ok, I know we are to love one another, but the implication of this feel good message is that if anything makes you feel bad then it is not of God,  that is ridiculous.

My friend has come close to killing his wife through neglect because of medical problems she has.  My friend states full well he knows he is aware of what he is doing and continues without trying because it makes him feel bad to try not to do it and if God didn't want him to do it, he would be prevented.  It's ridiculous to sit around and approve of that message.  That is not the message of scripture.

No right or wrong only love?  Maybe I am not to come down on my friend with a message of hate and condemnation, but I refuse to see in scripture that I am not to try to get my friend to see the scriptural nature of his plight especially when he claims to believe.

Of course I must look at myself as well and look to myself to see the nature in which I want to correct my friend.  But there are verses telling us to show one another the error of our ways.   Christianity teaches primarily that once you say your saved, then your no longer subject to the same judgment as the heathens in thw world and since God is going to cast away everyone that does not listen, they are taught to treat others accordingly.

So we have both side of the message that are taken to the extreme, when the bible says moderation in all things. 

Love sometimes creates the worst feeling we can ever imagine as the old ways are ripped from us, but we cannot sit back and just let things be when we are shown something is amiss.

I do not hate my friend, I do not rail on and on in condemnation to my friend, but I do not allow his comments that there is nothing he can do to stand without an admonishment to point out that he should try and keep trying no matter how futile or uncontrollable it seems and that,  yes,  God can work through with him and his addictions.   

But just to smile at my friend and say, go ahead, its alright, that is not love.

Very busy thread here . . .
Paul . .and others who seem to have misunderstood my point of view dealing with sin and such . . .

This example you've given above is no where near what I've been trying to project.  I have never implied that when we sin, it's God's fault so whatever will be will be.  I have never implied that there are not consequences for our actions.  This story you shared is tragic to say the least, but this guy has serious issues with his theology. 

It's difficult to try to share differences on a mature level when things keep getting taken out of context and the mudslinging begins . .which I then become part of the problem by slinging mud back and no one benefits from any of it.  The idea that you can live in sin and not face consequences is nuts.  I never have said that . .and if it came across that way, I apologize.

My message to any who's willing to read it "within it's context" is that you not walk around, beating yourself up over the fact that you can't live up to your own brand of Christian standards.  To do so is to ignore the finished works of the cross that gave you access to living in righteousness . . .despite your carnal mind in you.  . . me  . . in all of us. 

Balance . . .great, let's talk balance.  In any given day, there is a measure of pleanstries and a measure of discomforts that we all experience.  Just how healthy is it for me to continually focus on the problems I had today?  Is that my identity?  If someone asks how my day is, how do I respond?  Do I respond according to my present state?  If things have not been going in my favor, does that constitute a bad day?  Or, is it more healthier for me to "look for" the postitive things I've experienced and keep my mind from staying in those low places?

It's the same thing I've been trying to say on a spiritual plain.  We all have sin in our lives.  But just how healthy is it to dwell on the fact that I can not live up to the law?  I don't have the ability to fulfill any of it.  Jesus said if you break one, you've broken all of them.  We become so sin-concious that we miss out on the blessings not only that were given to us, but we also miss out on being a blessing to someone else . .all because we continue to focus on who is living right and who isn't.  And to those who are not, we take it upon ourselves to assume the role of the Holy Spirit to turn them around.

This guy who's addicted to drugs . . . the fact that he's taking drugs . . . does that make him any more or less righteous before God?  Because as near as I can tell, what makes me righteous is not what I do, but what has already been done.  Did this guy not already know taking drugs are wrong?  It appears he's already ignored that fact . . . let me get off your friend specifically because I don't want you to think I'm condemning you in dealing with him. 

Say it's anyone . . .there are many here on these forums that have no problem drinking beer . . . yet it's one of the biggest killers we have in our society.  Does drinking a beer make me any less worthy?  Does shooting up?  Sleeping around?  Is there any act that I do that makes me any less righteous?  To say there is, would be to say that what ever the sin was, it's stronger than the blood of the Lamb. 

Okay, so . . . it doesn't affect my righteousness.  Does that make doing it OK?  Of course not.  But it's not worthy of religious condemnation either.  Now, on the other hand, it "does" have other adverse affects.  Say the drugs for instance . . .my body becomes addicted to a poison that will eventually kill me if I don't get some sort of control over it.  It most definitely will destroy my relationships.  It destroys my income abilities . .. it has all kinds of negative affects in that way.

So . . .if I have someone who's into drugs and I approach them about it . . . what's my agenda?  If it doesn't affect their righteousness . .they why quote Scripture at them?  They're already addicted to fleshly desires and all my attempts to religionize them is only going to drive them further away from me, and deeper into their addiction . .only now, they have the added shame of realizing other people think they are now a substandard product. 

But on the other hand, if I can leave my doctrine at the door and just be their friend and try to work "with" them and give them support, and yes true love, and companionship . .and in some cases, space . . . over a committed amount of time, there is a greater chance that they could kick this habit through that rather than through me telling them how far outside of God's will they really are. 

Even if they're quoting Scripture defending their actions . . .where do you suppose they got that tactic from?  They got it mostly from whatever church they have been in contact with sometime in their life, by someone to misinterpreted the Word and quoted a bunch of stuff out of context and got them all messed up in their own mind.  The more I point out the shadows in you, the less you're going to want to hang around me.

Is not God's light strong enough to drive out the darkest nature in man?  That's why I take the position I do.  I do believe light truly is stronger than darkness and if I discern darkness from the light, why would I choose to point out the darkness?  If I pursue the light, that act in and of itself will drive out the darkness on it's own merit.

You can tell wrong from right?  Great!  Fabulous!  Now what?  Point out the wrong?  Or pursue the right?  I think that's what Paul was also eluding to when he stated he is only to preach Christ and him crucified.  it's not about all of those different shades of understanding in doctrines and theology.  Pursue love and that love will transform you and reproduce through you into others. 

I really don't care how rediculous it sounds . . .it's not about wrong and right.  If I'm wrong and your right . . .big deal . .now what?  If I'm right and you're wrong . .same thing . .big deal.  Who gets the glory in that?  If I'm right . . .I get the glory of proving my rightness . .if you're right . .you get the glory . . .either way, we're putting Christ in the back seat every time we let ourselves get caught up in these petty arguments.

But if we can lay our knowledge of what's right and wrong down and just love through all of it . .then God gets the glory and "that" is so much more benefiicial to all of us.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Forgive me Nathan, I should have quoted what I was responding to from your message in reference to saying no one was saying there are no rights and wrongs.

But I can move on from that, I do not really disagree with you for the most part.

Some things can be petty, but the realm of someones spiritual well being and the ways that it can be strengthened or weakened is not one I'll apologize for engaging in.   :happy3:

[Molly]

Say it's anyone . . .there are many here on these forums that have no problem drinking beer . . . yet it's one of the biggest killers we have in our society.  Does drinking a beer make me any less worthy?  Does shooting up?  Sleeping around?  Is there any act that I do that makes me any less righteous?  To say there is, would be to say that what ever the sin was, it's stronger than the blood of the Lamb. 

Okay, so . . . it doesn't affect my righteousness. 

Yes I think it does affect your righteousness, your relationship with God, in the moment.

That's the whole point of King David.   He pays the consequences of his sin, which once unleashed, moves to lies, adultery, and murder.

God's protection is removed from him, meaning God is turning his face away from him.

Interestingly, it is God who seems really hurt during the exchange with David.  God says to David, I gave you everything and if that was not enough I would have given you more.  And, this is how you repay me?

Our sin is all sin against God.  God cannot be in the presence of sin--that is why he sends Nathan to talk to David.

That said, we are able to be restored through Jesus, but it is up to us to repent, meaning to turn towards God once again.


Psalm 27:9
Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

[Nathan]

Sorry, Molly, I can't agree with the part about the sin affecting the righteousness.  Grace is so much more powerful than my sin.  My sin may affect my perspectives of spiritual things, but it does not affect my state of righteousness.  Remember, Abraham was called as righteous "before" he was circumcised. 

When Jesus breathed his last breath, he did an act that no other act can over-ride.  Interesting to believe in UR but also in works-based righteousness. 

The affects of the first Adam has reached every breathing man . . .yet the affects of the last Adam reach to greater parts than the first.  Death where is your victory, grave where is your sting?  The power of the cross is stronger than anything our minds can comprehend. 

The issue with David, that was one of the most blatant sins . . not just the adultery . . and not even the killing of the husband . .but this husband was one of the reknown mighty men in David's army that would literally risk his own life for the protection of Davids.  And yet, David used him like toilet paper. 

But even there, it did "not" affect his righteousness in God. 

If we look at all the Old Testament characters from a New Testament perspective, you would never know they were normal people with blemishes in their spiritual walks at all.  Job according to the New Testament is a saint for never giving up the faith while enduring what was apparently needless suffering.  But when you read the book of Job . . it's tough to read through all of the whining and grumbling.

Abraham . . considered in the New Testament as "the" patriarch of Faith.  Yet when you read his story, you see his faith wasn't as great as it's portrayed to be because he didn't wait for the prophetic word to come to pass, he took matters into his own hands as a result of natural reasoning, and created a whole other nation that was constantly at war with the nation that finally did come about as promised.

And David is no different.  According to the New Testament, the coined phrase on him was not about his failures, but that he was a man after God's own heart.

There are tons of opportunities to dwell on the fodder of the flesh, but the example is all through the New Testament that God IS BLIND to the fodder more than our limited minds are willing to admit. 

The actions of David carried great consequences . .but it didn't affect his relationship with God.  In fact, I'd say the consequences were a result of the fact that the relationship remained entact.  I don't measure my relationship with God by the level of my confidence in myself.  Infact, I don't measure my relationship with God at all.  It's immeasurable.  And it's constant . .and without end.  It's immovable and unshakable.  Not because of anything I do or don't do . . "inspite" of what I do or don't do . .it remains constant (faithful).  Grace is just that powerful.

[Molly]

well, I don't generally think in terms of grand schemes and big pictures with regard to God.  God is found for me in the moments of each day.  To that extent I am able to deal with the issues that I need to deal with as they come up.  Certainly, it all worked out well for David in the end, but the living through it was very tough for him.  Maybe that's why they say, the devil is in the details.


13And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

15And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

16David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

17And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

--2 Sam 12

[Kevin]

BIBLE:  :2c:

Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth