Tentmaker Forum

Hi again all  :girlheart:

Since I am still very new to all this and lots of you have been living "The Good Christian Life" for a while now (not that I never believed in God Almighty and Lord Jesus Christ - just never really lived as best I could), I thought you could give your thoughts and outlines (supported biblically of course) of how to live the way God wants us to. Things like should we give up television or sport or music.

Looking forward to all your answers

Dee

Quote from: DeeDee on November 03, 2008, 03:25:00 PM
Hi again all  :girlheart:

Since I am still very new to all this and lots of you have been living "The Good Christian Life" for a while now (not that I never believed in God Almighty and Lord Jesus Christ - just never really lived as best I could), I thought you could give your thoughts and outlines (supported biblically of course) of how to live the way God wants us to. Things like should we give up television or sport or music.

Looking forward to all your answers

Dee

Dee no one can answer that question to everyones satisfaction, I'll only say whatever the Lord tells YOU to do do it, don't worry about what others are doing or thier opinion on what you should be doing.

If the Lord don't tell you to do anything don't do anything,just wait on Him.

Dee,

Your post made me think of an essay I read a while back about what the Bible has to say about lifestyle rules.  Of course I can't find the essay now that I need it, but I found another essay that makes a similar point:

"One kind of literature that you do not find [in the Bible] is an architectural manual or rulebook telling us how to play the game called Christianity.  If we construe Christianity as a rulebook then God gave us the wrong book!"  (Allan McNicol in "Living Under the Word.") 

I like this quote because it parallels Scripture:

"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. (1 Corinthians 10:23)

The bottom line is, I agree with pneuma -- these things are a matter of prayer and discernment.

Thanks again to all.

I just get so scared I am doing something wrong. I have not lived the most moral life. Even now I still have issues. I am at the point that I worry about everything I do and say. Because I am so scared of slipping I do often. I know God loves us all, I just want to do right by Him.

I look at people around me that are'nt exactly the spokes people for Christian Moral Life. I get so sad. I am quite the same as them. I hope the Lord will bare with me long enough for me to start getting it right.

Blessing to you all
Dee

QuoteThanks again to all.

I just get so scared I am doing something wrong. I have not lived the most moral life. Even now I still have issues. I am at the point that I worry about everything I do and say. Because I am so scared of slipping I do often. I know God loves us all, I just want to do right by Him.

I look at people around me that are'nt exactly the spokes people for Christian Moral Life. I get so sad. I am quite the same as them. I hope the Lord will bare with me long enough for me to start getting it right.

Blessing to you all
Dee

Dee Dee, 

I can tell you this.  Your intentions are good, but they won't get you anywhere.  Let's flip your very good question this way.  Would it be better to "live a christian life"? Or to "live life in Christ?" Think about for a moment.  You see, it all starts with God.  He's the one who must reveal to you (if its His will from the beginning) how much He ALREADY loves you.  Many people try to live a "christian moral life", and can't get there because living a "christian moral life" is man attempting to EARN God's love through human effort via religion.  Whereas "life in Christ" is man LIVING in the reality of God's love.  This "Life in Christ" is accomplished through GOD'S efforts.   Do you see the difference?

We read in 1 John 4:19 

19 We love because he first loved us.

Unless God puts it on your heart that your efforts to EARN His love are distracting you from His purpose and clouding your intentions to do right by Him, you won't be able to "get it".  However, once He reveals who He is in Christ, then you get to EXPERIENCE His great love.  It all starts with Him.  My suggestion, for all it's worth (which is to say "not much"), is to ask Him in prayer that, if it be His will.  God reveal to you how much He loves you.  Him doing that revelation will sow the seed for you the bear His fruit of moral living.  Sure, you'll struggle, but it's part of learning.   

In a nutshell.  NONE OF US can live Godly by OUR human understanding, only by God's Holy Spirit can this be done.  Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:14

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

May God reveal His love for you as today progresses.

Ches

willieH: Hi DeeDee... :hithere:

Great name!  :ok:  DeeDee is my (33yr old) daughter's nickname!   :HeartThrob:  :laughing7:

Quote from: DeeDee on November 09, 2008, 02:12:29 PM
Thanks again to all.

I just get so scared I am doing something wrong. I have not lived the most moral life. Even now I still have issues. I am at the point that I worry about everything I do and say. Because I am so scared of slipping I do often. I know God loves us all, I just want to do right by Him.

I look at people around me that are'nt exactly the spokes people for Christian Moral Life. I get so sad. I am quite the same as them. I hope the Lord will bare with me long enough for me to start getting it right.

Blessing to you all
Dee

None of us can claim the "goody two shoes" trophy DeeDee!  :first: :declare: :mnah:

Scott (Pneuma) gave real good advice (in reply #1)... for we are ALL a work in progress, which means that there is correction due in ALL of our lives, ...ALL of our lives!  :yes:

As he said... do what you hear GOD telling you to do... and if you don't hear him (but just hear others telling you)... WAIT on Him, till you KNOW HE is telling you... :director: :icon_queen:  :boogie:

Quote from: DeeDee on November 09, 2008, 02:12:29 PM
Thanks again to all.

I just get so scared I am doing something wrong. I have not lived the most moral life. Even now I still have issues. I am at the point that I worry about everything I do and say. Because I am so scared of slipping I do often. I know God loves us all, I just want to do right by Him.
Dee

There should be no fear that you are doing something wrong if your heart is desired to do what is good. Mistakes, stumbles and new discoveries are all part of life and it should not be clouded with any looming fear. Their is a good fear, a self-awareness, and then there is a bad fear, a terror. There is no terror in God and should you fall, He is there to pick you up.

Some people have no respect for God, and so they do not have any understanding that not all fear is evil. These people will cause you more trouble in your life if you listen to them because they themselves are decieved in what is good and what is evil in order to live to what is good.

willieH: Hi DeeDee... :hithere:

Always remember this dear one:

1 John 4:18  ...there is NO FEAR, ...in LOVE;  but PERFECT LOVE, ...CASTETH OUT FEAR... because FEAR hath TORMENT.  He that FEARETH is NOT MADE PERFECT, ...in LOVE.

GOD is not about making you afraid... MEN, in their CARNAL WRECKLESSNESS and Corrupted THEOLOGY... seek to instill FEAR in their readers...

GOD is LOVE... as John noted in 1 John 4:8... which a few verses later notes in 1 John 4:14  that LOVE sent His Son to SAVE THE WORLD... and then proceeds to tell us that OUR LOVE is made PERFECT [complete] by our confession of CHRIST as the Son of God: 1 John 4:15-17... and then concludes by noting that FEAR is NOT a PART of LOVE... 1 John 4:18

He concludes in 1 John 4:19-21 that as we LOVE our brothers whom we CAN SEE, is the verification of CHRIST and LOVE, present in our lives, CASTING OUT FEAR.

If you have confessed CHRIST as the SON of GOD, and you LOVE your brothers, ...then you have nothing to FEAR, for it is IN that CONFESSION, that you are made PERFECT concerning LOVE 1 John 4:17...

This context is very self explanatory... and many (supposed) THEOLOGIANS shall try to lead you down the trail of FEAR... instead of the TRAIL of LOVE...  If you are wise, you will not heed such men/women... :mnah:

GOD uses and is WORKING ALL THINGS within His PURPOSE, and according to HIS WILL... as is PLAINLY noted in Eph 1:9-11

I'm not going to address the fear piece here, it appears that's been covered thoroughly.  But to me, the fear is not your issue.  Fear is the symptom.  What the issue seems to be to me is, your ego has a picture of what it's convinced a Christian is, and your mind is trying to measure up to that and can't.

To that I (and I think it's safe to say "we") can say . .WELCOME TO THE CLUB!!! 

Not one of us can live up to the standards of our own natural reasoning.  That's what's so liberating in these days of Christ we now live in.  We're finding just how far his Grace does go in our inarrant ways of thinking.  Even in the arugments that arise from time to time on the forums are covered by Grace.

That's the crux of our relationship with Christ.  We've learned that we did nothing to be a sinner . . .we were born into it.  And just as we did nothing to be a sinner, we also did nothing to become redeemed.  We were born "again" into that as well.  But there are still parts of our fallen nature that tries to pull us back into our old nature again.  But this is where 2 Corinthians 10 comes into play . . .take captive those thoughts.  Why?  Because they are lies.

Your ego will tell you that you are a substandard product.  You don't really fit in with other Christians.  You're a fake.  The reason these things are being said to you in your head are because the carnal thinking in you does not have the capacity to comprehend that you actually do get something for nothing here.  You get LIFE just by believing . .not by doing.  Romans says that this carnal mind in us is always at enmity with God, or it's always at war with God.  It's always arguing against the godly things that try to take root in us.  It's used to controling your thougt patterns and it's used to living on the surface of your feelings.

But there's been a resurrection in the spirit of you that your mind can not comprehend, nor can it control.  So in response, it inflates these lies to bring you into a state of guilt and shame and . .yes . .fear.  But TRUTH says, you have been not only called, but also chosen.  You are a king . .you are a priest.  You are not a failure, you are a conqueror.  You do realize don't you that when you were conceived, there were actually millions of other seeds that were all pursuing the same egg within your mother's womb, but God chose you to manifest.  You were already a fulfillment of his plan before you were even able to learn how to speak.

And now, there is a deeper calling that goes beyond your head.  Your head can never enter into these spectacular realms of glory.  What does happen is, your heart reveals these glorious things to your head and understanding begins to form and change your personality and desires.  The key is, you must let your spirit lead your mind.  In other words . . .you don't need to try to figure everything out and conjure up a plan of action.  Trust the Lord that there is something great about to manifest in you and lay your mind down to it. 

Heck, if you've read many of these threads, you see that there are people swimming in Truth and have been for some time and still have problems trying to put in to words what their spirit is seeing.  Just enjoy the ride . . . as God told Moses "Stand back and see what the Glory of the Lord is about to do."

We're in this with ya!

As I said, there are those who do not have any fear and do evil unknowingly because of it, do not listen to these men because they do not know what fear means. They take the English word for 'fear' and apply broadly across the board to believe fear means 'terror' and to their own folly lead people astray. Committing a fallacy, they do evil in their life and feel justified for it. God will deal with them justly.

Philippians 3:18-21
For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Self-awareness of one's actions is also a fear mentioned in Scripture as 'fear', there is also reverence of God who is all-powerful and all-knowing never decieved or blinded which is in Scripture is known as 'fear' but neither of these is a fear of torment or terror, it is an understanding that evil leads to evil and good leads to good. Those who cannot distinguish between good and evil are infants and in need of milk.

2 Corinthians 5:10-15
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Acts 9:31
Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.

Those who cannot distinguish between good and evil are infants and in need of milk.

Really?  "That's" how you judge between a mature Christian and an infant?

This person we're responding to has been badly scarred by the things of her mind and the best you can do is stomp all over someone elses attempt to comfort her?

I understand you and Willie have a rift . . .but you really need to get over yourself with this.  It's getting sickening to see your wet-blanket theology expose your coldness every time you see an opportunity. 

I'm sure I'm going to get a rebuke from you on this and frankly, I don't care . .it's to the point where I wonder if being on this forum is even worth it anymore. 

There are truly people out there that are hurting and need an extra effort to really feel the Love of Christ through others and every time, to me, every time the momentum picks up, something has to be thrown out to douse the fire . .all in the name of God?  I just don't see the benefit of tearing people down just because you don't agree with them.

Your Good and evil theology is abusive.  God doesn't want us to go around with this rod of iron accusing people of who is good and who is evil.  He didn't want Adam to be a part of this tree from the beginning.  The truth is, the one who is mature is the one who does discern good from evil . . .AND STILL CALLS FORTH THE GOOD. 

I'm done.

QuoteThose who cannot distinguish between good and evil are infants and in need of milk.

Really?  "That's" how you judge between a mature Christian and an infant?

Where did I say that is how I judge a mature Christian and an infant?

Hebrews 5:11-14
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 3Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

If you cannot distinguish between good from evil, then you are an infant. If you are an infant, than you are still in disunity with the Body of Christ being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

Ephesians 4:10-15
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

If you cannot tell the difference between guilt and conviction, or righteousness and condemnation, or awareness and fear, then you are an infant and you do not know the things of God and have no business teaching on such things.

God is judge, and a righteous judge who acts out of love, mercy and faithfulness but that does not nullify justice either.

Romans 1:18-32
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

1 Peter 2:15-16
For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

QuoteI understand you and Willie have a rift . . .but you really need to get over yourself with this.  It's getting sickening to see your wet-blanket theology expose your coldness every time you see an opportunity.

I'm sure I'm going to get a rebuke from you on this and frankly, I don't care . .it's to the point where I wonder if being on this forum is even worth it anymore.

What wet-blanket theology and what coldness? The only ones who have problems with it, are those who live hedonistic lives based on their emotions and cannot distinguish a truth from a lie and do everything in their power to run from the light when the light has come.

John 3:19-21
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

HERE IS A REALITY

The Truth will expose everyone for who they are and at the time it will appear to feel cold, but that is because it strips you of your pride and you have nowhere to hide, naked before God. Better for the one who recognizes it now in this life, then appear before God in the next one confessing a self-deception which is indeed as obvious to them as it is to God.

If you want to live a good moral Christian life, you need to know what a good moral Christian life is. If you do not know, you will not live it, plain and simple.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

2 Timothy 3:2-6
People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

2 Peter 2:1
There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

It is very obvious, and those who cannot see it, also do not understand the Grace of God in such circumstances either.

2 Corinthians 5:2-5
Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

We do not want to be found naked when we see Him, but clothed in our heavenly dwelling not lies and self-deceit. We were created in Jesus Christ to do good, and those who do continue to do what is good are clothed in Him and have nothing to hide. He has made us for this very purpose.

Doing good is not easy, but that is why His grace is sufficient for us and in our time of need we can walk boldly into that throne room of Grace.

Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2008, 10:01:35 PM
Those who cannot distinguish between good and evil are infants and in need of milk.
Really?  "That's" how you judge between a mature Christian and an infant?

Actually, that's how the Bible distinguishes them in Hebrews 5:12-14, as well as 1Corinthians 3, and there's a disputed phrase in the opening of 1Peter 2 along these lines about desiring the sincere milk of the Word that you may grow thereby.  I can't remember which translations that I've seen that word it a little differently in 1Peter 2, but my NASB and Concordant include it, so that means it's got manuscript support.  If the jury of some scholars is still out on that one, the Hebrews 5 and 1Corinthians 3 passage are still clear about it, and possibly from different authors.  And what I mean by possibly is that if it wound up being someone in St. Paul's circle that wrote Hebrews, it would still likely reflect his teachings even if on a technicality someone else's finger prints were on the originals.

Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2008, 10:01:35 PM
This person we're responding to has been badly scarred by the things of her mind and the best you can do is stomp all over someone elses attempt to comfort her?

Comfort must remain Scripturally balanced, otherwise someone will walk away from momentary comfort only to have the Scriptures torment them later if they haven't had what they're reading clarified for them by the Holy Spirit and/or by these open doors for others into the subject.

Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2008, 10:01:35 PM
I understand you and Willie have a rift . . .but you really need to get over yourself with this.  It's getting sickening to see your wet-blanket theology expose your coldness every time you see an opportunity.

WillieH and Craig can get pretty emotional, but right now you seem to be having the meltdown, bro!

Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2008, 10:01:35 PM
I'm sure I'm going to get a rebuke from you on this and frankly, I don't care . .it's to the point where I wonder if being on this forum is even worth it anymore.

The forum can be challenging to the best of us, but as a minister you need both the challenges and the openness to reevaluate your own beliefs.  Not jumping on you.  On the freewill/hell thread we had going for a while, I got deeply turned off by the Predeterminist point of view, but I see it enough in the Scriptures to where I've been willing to get chatty on it with the Predeterminists around here on the George MacDonald thread that I'd started a while back.  When we're very deeply dissatisfied by what we're hearing from others, sometimes that's our own hearts reaching out to the Holy Spirit for a deeper revelation of some truth.  Voice of experience talking here on that.

Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2008, 10:01:35 PM
There are truly people out there that are hurting and need an extra effort to really feel the Love of Christ through others and every time, to me, every time the momentum picks up, something has to be thrown out to douse the fire . .all in the name of God?  I just don't see the benefit of tearing people down just because you don't agree with them.

Wanting to remain firmly Scripturally rooted isn't of itself an attempt at tearing anyone down.  And you've been around long enough to know that when some of these guys wanna make it personal, it can be a bit more biting.

Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2008, 10:01:35 PM
Your Good and evil theology is abusive.

It can be.  We've all gotten our share of licks from it.  But it's how God has chosen to structure the Scriptures.  Does the pottery have the right to say to the Potter, what the heck are you doing, and why are you doing it that way?  There's much at these boards to challenge the level of Scriptural and Holy Spirit authority that all of our beliefs have.  As an example of what I'm going through: I'm comfortable in my theology without the Predeterminist perspective since I've heard so little of it taught in my life time.  But I see enough of it in Scripture to not turn a deaf ear to those that spend the most time praying and meditating on those particular parts of Scripture.  I'm not choosing sides here and I'm more than aware of the history of these boards and that neither Craig nor WillieH are innocent of having smacked each other around a few times, as well as others.  But don't let what you see of other people's growing pains and what's probably a fair amount of not knowing how to take someone in an environment that has zero facial expressions and voice tones -- don't let what's just honestly a certain amount of you're being sick and tired of hearing such and such blind you to what the Holy Spirit may be moving you into a position to hear from Him if you don't entertain an offense.  I'm personally rereading some stuff on other threads that's partially going down like very strong alcohol because I don't want to let my initial knee jerk reactions keep me from getting from the Holy Spirit what my Lord wanted me to get out of something that He drew my attention to on these boards.  I do believe that our Lord brought you to these boards, Nathan.  If you need space/time to process, pray, and find your peace again, absolutely all of us will understand that.  But please do come back after you've been refreshed by the Presence of our Lord.

Dee Dee,

I just read this, and I am touched.

Let me say first of all, you are free to do anything you want, anything at all, and the action itself is of no greater or lesser value to God than any other. There is no right and wrong, only love. Pursue love, allow love to move you, be God's channel of love into this world, and that is ALL that is required, seriously, that's all.

Mar 12:28  One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"   29  Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;  30  AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31  "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'   There is no other commandment greater than these."  

Don't sweat it, all you need to know is here in these 4 verses..the rest is commentary!
Paul

Quote from: SOtW on November 12, 2008, 10:15:45 PM

QuoteThose who cannot distinguish between good and evil are infants and in need of milk.

Really?  "That's" how you judge between a mature Christian and an infant?

Where did I say that is how I judge a mature Christian and an infant?

Hebrews 5:11-14
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 3Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

If you cannot distinguish between good from evil, then you are an infant. If you are an infant, than you are still in disunity with the Body of Christ being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

Ephesians 4:10-15
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

If you cannot tell the difference between guilt and conviction, or righteousness and condemnation, or awareness and fear, then you are an infant and you do not know the things of God and have no business teaching on such things.

God is judge, and a righteous judge who acts out of love, mercy and faithfulness but that does not nullify justice either.

Romans 1:18-32
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

1 Peter 2:15-16
For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

QuoteI understand you and Willie have a rift . . .but you really need to get over yourself with this.  It's getting sickening to see your wet-blanket theology expose your coldness every time you see an opportunity.

I'm sure I'm going to get a rebuke from you on this and frankly, I don't care . .it's to the point where I wonder if being on this forum is even worth it anymore.

What wet-blanket theology and what coldness? The only ones who have problems with it, are those who live hedonistic lives based on their emotions and cannot distinguish a truth from a lie and do everything in their power to run from the light when the light has come.

John 3:19-21
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

HERE IS A REALITY

The Truth will expose everyone for who they are and at the time it will appear to feel cold, but that is because it strips you of your pride and you have nowhere to hide, naked before God. Better for the one who recognizes it now in this life, then appear before God in the next one confessing a self-deception which is indeed as obvious to them as it is to God.

If you want to live a good moral Christian life, you need to know what a good moral Christian life is. If you do not know, you will not live it, plain and simple.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

2 Timothy 3:2-6
People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

2 Peter 2:1
There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

It is very obvious, and those who cannot see it, also do not understand the Grace of God in such circumstances either.

2 Corinthians 5:2-5
Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

We do not want to be found naked when we see Him, but clothed in our heavenly dwelling not lies and self-deceit. We were created in Jesus Christ to do good, and those who do continue to do what is good are clothed in Him and have nothing to hide. He has made us for this very purpose.

Doing good is not easy, but that is why His grace is sufficient for us and in our time of need we can walk boldly into that throne room of Grace.

A grand collection of self originated LEGALISM... If GOD is not WORKING, than the WORK is in VAIN...

Ps 127:1  Except YHVH ...BUILD the HOUSE...  they labour in VAIN that BUILD IT... Except YHVH keep the city, the watchmen waketh but in VAIN...

Seek GOD in your heart, and the truth of HIS WORD's will FIND YOU, as HE sets before you, the course of your life's trail...  For it is the WORK of the SHEPHERD, to FIND the SHEEP!  :dsunny:

Read PIERAC's (reply #14) post for some solidly good and SPIRITUAL advice...  :boogie:

You don't know what Legalism is Willie, anyone who knows me, knows I am the least legalistic person they know. So I guess you don't know me either. More meaningless rhetoric from WillieH that has no substance or foundation but Ad Hominem attacks, that is, insults and arguments against the person rather than the truth.

DeeDee, you may see this thread and wonder, but you read my website and none of these guys who insult me know who I am.

You need to be careful not to listen to those who say there is not right and wrong, good or evil, Scripture calls them evil. They invented a doctrine that there is no right and wrong, because they are still scared and fearful of what happens when they are wrong. Instead of confronting the fact that God is a God of love, they threw away the baby with the bathwater and just came up with this evil doctrine which says there is no right and wrong.

This is the truth:  You need to know is there is a right and wrong, but it doesn't matter if your heart is pure and you are pursuing God. If your heart is always to God, doing wrong is nothing to fear because He will set your pathes straight. That is what His grace is sufficient for. So whether or not you are doing right or you are found doing wrong, God is Love and if your motivation is pure, all things are pure.

Quote from: SOtW on November 13, 2008, 04:02:45 AM
You don't know what Legalism is Willie, anyone who knows me, knows I am the least legalistic person they know. So I guess you don't know me either. More meaningless rhetoric from WillieH that has no substance or foundation but Ad Hominem attacks, that is, insults and arguments against the person rather than the truth.

You do not have a clue as to what I "KNOW"...  as far as LEGALISM goes... I have dealt with this premise for YEARS so please don't pretend to insinuate to me that I do not KNOW its meaning...  If you truly KNEW its meaning, you would preach premises other than you do, in a way other than you do...

LEGALISM:  To ADHERE STRICTLY to a specific RELGIOUS code, especially as a means of gaining approval... which in essence is WHAT YOU PREACH Craig...

You think to KNOW everyone else, but NO ONE KNOWS you eh?  Please... :rolleye:

I said NOTHING about you... just commented on the legalistic ..."work your way to heaven" ..."get a reward"  ..."to hell with whoever disagrees with me", philosphy you preach...   :sigh:  ...which unfortunately misses the point...  :sigh:

GOD is LOVE... which is what I preach and pursue...  THAT is what I recommended in the post,

PIERAC notes to LOVE GOD with all your heart, strength, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself... THAT is the GOSPEL in a nutshell...

You are welcome to try to earn your way to Heaven if you must... and to condemn everyone else to lesser than yourself postions... As for me, I will recommend GOD and HIS LOVE above any other thing...

Ad hominem, ad shmominem Craig... get over your demands... No one said ANYTHING personal about you... Just found your recommendations less than PIERAC's...  :dontknow:

No "ad nasueum" attacks sotw... just the straight poop... can't handle it, get out, ...the water...

I got nothing against you Craig...  Learn to LOVE a little bro...  It really blows my mind that after 4 years of our bickering that you do not see that GOD has put us together to LOVE one another...  :HeartThrob:

When is it going to happen?  :dunno:

I'm willing, ...are you?  :friendstu:

Whatever floats your boat WillieH.

Thank you ALL. You are ALL wonderful and I love you ALL and I value what ALL of you have to say to me.

Willie and Craig - you both help me and you both make me feel better. You are both very passionate about God and have amazing faith in Him. You both clearly have love for your fellow man 2. That is why you are both so passionate in your answers. No one wants to lead anyone astray or down the wrong path. I get that and I am so thankful to both of you.

Nathan, you touch my heart deeply 2 and please don't worry I have never felt like anyone here is trying to break me down or upset me. It really means a great deal to me that you care so very very much about me and my feelings and you don't even know me. Please don't leave the boards.

God Bless all of you my dear dear friends

Dee

Literally it is written:  "...beside the good and the evil."  What is "beside" the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? The tree of life, from which it is granted to Overcomers to eat.  But there's more!  "Thy loving kindness is better than life."  This "loving-kindness" is hesed or "mercy."  It is covenant love in action.  It is the ardor to meet the need, to fulfill.  ("I will pour floods upon the dry ground.")  It is the throne, the MERCY Throne upon which the glory rests.  The fountain of waters of life is between the two trees in the midst of the garden, beside both the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life.  Beyond these creation's trees we're summoned into the uncreated being of God.  Shekinah his bride in union with Him is being readied to sit with Him in His throne.  The woman is the glory of the man.  We are His bride.  The reign of God is in MERCY.

At the center of the world is God's nation.  At the center of His nation is Jerusalem.  At the center of the Holy City of temples is the Temple.  At the center of The Temple is the Holy of Holies.  At the center of the Holy of Holies is the Throne of God and of the Lamb:  The MERCY Throne.  At The Center, ruling over all, the Word, Who is the Image and Glory of God, rests upon The MERCY Throne.

Jesus said, "Of my own self I can do nothing."  Why would our confession be any different?  If Jesus cannot live "the Christian life" why would we think we can?  He said, "It is the Father Who is with me, He does the works."

QuoteWillie and Craig - you both help me and you both make me feel better. You are both very passionate about God and have amazing faith in Him. You both clearly have love for your fellow man 2. That is why you are both so passionate in your answers. No one wants to lead anyone astray or down the wrong path. I get that and I am so thankful to both of you.

I am glad you can see that. I also care about your feelings, though I do not appeal to emotion to get those feelings. If we are anchored in the truth, emotion will flow and because the truth sets us free, those feelings should be freedom not bondage. All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial. I like to see a wound healed which sometimes involves pain, rather than just covering it up with comfortable bandages but the wound still exist.

Thanks Craig  :Sparkletooth:

God has given us everything we need to live wonderful lives here on earth--even if we were to live for eternity.   He has given us great abundance and the brilliant minds to tap into it, unlimited sources of energy, a way to live in peace with our neighbors, enough food and shelter for all 6 billion people on the planet.

Then why is there so much death, despair, and poverty?  Why is there always so much fighting amongst brothers?

There is another force at work that is in opposition to God.  It is based on lies, greed, a desire for power equal to, but not derived from, God.  Every indication says that this is the dominant power in control of the world today.

Let's take something like illegal drugs.  A small group of men realized they could get very rich by running a billion dollar tax free drug business.  Not only that, but they could control large groups of drug addicted people--keep them passive and out of it, and focused on nothing more than their next fix.

Great bureaucracies could be grown up around the drug trade, giving employment to a small private army who would by definition never solve the problem, lest they be out of a job.  The war on drugs, like the war on terror, is not meant to ever be won.

Another system of drug rehabilitation facilities make large profits treating drug users.

Another system of prisons employs thousands to house and guard the hapless users, using them as slave labor.

Drugs are big business.   And, drugs destroy generation after generation--rendering them useless if not outright killing them.  And, the drug lords kill everyone who comes against them.

A great way to control people and get rich in the bargain.  And, what do the drug lords do with their huge fortunes?  They turn it into political power to keep their business safe.

Everyone who is not on drugs ignores the problem--it is not their problem, after all.  This includes all the Christian churches because if the Christian churches made this their problem, it would stop overnight.

How might Jesus feel about this?


18"The Lord's Spirit

   has come to me,

   because he has chosen me

   to tell the good news

   to the poor.

   The Lord has sent me

   to announce freedom

   for prisoners,

   to give sight to the blind,

   to free everyone

   who suffers,

    19and to say, `This is the year

   the Lord has chosen.' "

--Luke 4



And, we as the agents of Christ, what are we to do?




Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matthew 10:38
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2008, 01:14:50 PM
Everyone who is not on drugs ignores the problem--it is not their problem, after all.  This includes all the Christian churches because if the Christian churches made this their problem, it would stop overnight.

I don't ignore it,  but I'm interested in your theory on how the churches could stop this overnight, explain.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 13, 2008, 02:56:23 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2008, 01:14:50 PM
Everyone who is not on drugs ignores the problem--it is not their problem, after all.  This includes all the Christian churches because if the Christian churches made this their problem, it would stop overnight.

I don't ignore it,  but I'm interested in your theory on how the churches could stop this overnight, explain.

The church is God's army on earth.

God requires us to worship him in spirit and truth.

If we, as Christians, are swallowing lie after lie, and looking the other way, nothing will change.

Evil wins when good men do nothing.

Not one of our candidates mentioned drugs, did they?

Nothing but garbage--hope change hope hope hope--,mavricky mavericks.

Hope is as worthless as the currency it is written on, empty lies.

When this people stands up and demands the truth, and demands that their God be worshipped in spirit and truth--yes things will change overnight.

No liars and thieves allowed in our government.

There are good men, but they are few and far between, and they are regularly crucified.

I personally couldn't care less about the political arena because that is one other problem,  people think the government can solve the moral state of man.

There is no perfect man, so there can be no perfect moral man in political office in the first place. 

Hope is not worthless, because this war we wage is not about flesh and blood, it is not about laws and useless wars on drugs.   I used drugs because my spirit was empty,  no law and no person fixed me,  God fixed me in his time.  When he presented me with the light, I was able to choose.  I did choose many times to ignore the light, I finally chose to accept the light when my life was so dark and useless I had no where else to turn.

Messages that thats just how I was supposed to be kept me in darkness.  Messages about how bad and pathetic I was kept me in darkness.  It indeed was a glimpse of hope that could not be proven to me that saved me from eartly destruction, but my spirit was not yet healed.

There is no promise in the bible of this utopian earthly life, so I do not seek something that is not promised.

The message is about the hope beyond this life, and hope is not useless or the bible would not talk about how great it is to hope for the unseen.

People can have their dim bulbs of light in politics,  its one of the more useless illuminations.

well, that's the typical Christian response, one of total passivity--God will take care of it for me--and self indulgence.  I have been guilty of the same, mind you, which is how I know it so well.

I'm glad God saved you, but thousands of our children are not so lucky.

They need men of God to save them.   They are waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.  Thousands of them die waiting.

And, yes, there is a promise in the Bible of this utopian earthly life, if only one would read it.




34As you watched, a stone was cut from a mountain--but not by human hands. The stone struck the feet, completely shattering the iron and clay. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed and blown away without a trace, like husks of wheat at threshing time. But the stone became a tremendous mountain that covered the entire earth.

--Daniel 2


1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.



2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

--Rev 21

Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2008, 04:07:07 PM
well, that's the typical Christian response, one of total passivity--God will take care of it for me--and self indulgence.  I have been guilty of the same, mind you, which is how I know it so well.

Never said God did it for me, I said I ignored the light many times and it was not the "typical" answers to the drug problem that helped me.

Total passivity!!!!  LOL,  Nope, sorry, you have missed the threads where I write against the fuzzy wuzzy gospel that my friend has grasped on to.  He is in the same boat I once was, and I do not give up on him, and encourage him and speak against the things that I believe keep him in darkness.

QuoteI'm glad God saved you, but thousands of our children are not so lucky.
They need men of God to save them.   They are waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.  Thousands of them die waiting.

Waiting for the great political leader to save them will kill more, so like I said, you can have your garbage politics, its worthless.

Quote
And, yes, there is a promise in the Bible of this utopian earthly life, if only one would read it.

Nope, if only people would stop scripture mining.


Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


The spiritual life is the only place where peace will abound.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 13, 2008, 04:19:32 PM

Nope, if only people would stop scripture mining.


Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


The spiritual life is the only place where peace will abound.

I agree. 

QuoteWaiting for the great political leader to save them will kill more, so like I said, you can have your garbage politics, its worthless.

I am not waiting for any great political leader.  I am waiting for the sons of God to wake up and become agents of Christ on this earth.   Christ himself was the greatest political leader who ever lived.

QuoteNope, if only people would stop scripture mining.


Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


The spiritual life is the only place where peace will abound.

Do you really think 'spiritual' has nothing to do with this earth?  Do you think that truth has nothing to do with this earth?  If truth cannot be found on this earth, then how could anyone speak it?   Everyone on earth is destined to speak lies for their entire life?

A spiritual war is being fought every day on this earth.

De- nile is a river in Egypt and we are told to come out of Egypt.

You don't expect to ever see Jesus on this earth again?  Is that it?

How can one be faithful and true if one supports lies and corruption?



11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

---Rev 19

QuoteI am not waiting for any great political leader.  I am waiting for the sons of God to wake up and become agents of Christ on this earth.   Christ himself was the greatest political leader who ever lived.

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Ro 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

QuoteDo you really think 'spiritual' has nothing to do with this earth?  Do you think that truth has nothing to do with this earth?  If truth cannot be found on this earth, then how could anyone speak it?   Everyone on earth is destined to speak lies for their entire life?

Lk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

This is the implication that He will not. 

Ro 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,


I'm all for the promotion of good things for a better earth, but bitterness will come from believing in false hopes.


Want to plant a seed of hope,  find people near you and tell them of the hope that is in YOU, not the bitterness that no one is doing anything.

Mt 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?


When the world comes crashing down and people can watch it in the understanding that it will all pass away and that we did our duty to promote the change in people spirits, then it will be understood why we try to change others.  It is not to promote a utopian earth that is not promised, it is to promote the integrity of spirit to one another.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Quote
How can one be faithful and true if one supports lies and corruption?

True, the lie that God promises the earth can be a utopia is one of them I reject, thanks

QuoteRo 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,


I'm all for the promotion of good things for a better earth, but bitterness will come from believing in false hopes.

You didn't finish that scripture--


in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2008, 05:20:28 PM

QuoteRo 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,


I'm all for the promotion of good things for a better earth, but bitterness will come from believing in false hopes.

You didn't finish that scripture--


in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Didn't need to finish it for the point it applies to because the rest of it does not contradict what I am saying.   But the fact that you brought it up points out something.   "SHALL be"

That means it will happen.  If you are pointing this out to promote the possibility of utopian physical earth, then you must stop worrying, because thats a promise it will happen.

But, thats not where the hope and promise lies,  because there would be no reason for this heaven and earth to pass away.


Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 13, 2008, 05:27:42 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2008, 05:20:28 PM

QuoteRo 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,


I'm all for the promotion of good things for a better earth, but bitterness will come from believing in false hopes.

You didn't finish that scripture--


in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Didn't need to finish it for the point it applies to because the rest of it does not contradict what I am saying.   But the fact that you brought it up points out something.   "SHALL be"

That means it will happen.  If you are pointing this out to promote the possibility of utopian physical earth, then you must stop worrying, because thats a promise it will happen.

But, thats not where the hope and promise lies,  because there would be no reason for this heaven and earth to pass away.


Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Yes, it has to pass away because it is not his kingdom--remember?

And, you, are you a new creation in Christ?  Did your old self pass away?

Then you should want to step into the new heavens and the new earth, into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

He knows the desires of our hearts because he put them there.

This is the great hope he's given us, --one which we have seen begin to be realized.  A young idea--liberty, justice,  and freedom for all.   Is it not our commission as agents of Christ to continue it and protect it?  And, how can we do that if we turn our backs and strain at gnats and swallow camels?


for the former things are passed away.

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

--Rev 21

We have a difference of opinion on how that manifests Molly.

I believe it is the combination of the false teaching of salvation within Christianity and the influence of the delusion of altered states of consciousness that the people with in christianity has promoted that influences this misunderstanding. 

My thinking has changed, but not all of it, and I can accept Christ,  but I do not follow all his commandments.

Do you follow all his commandments Molly?   I could be guilty of being accusatory, but that is not my intent.  It is to get people to realize that we try to love Christ, but as Peter did, we deny him every day,  EVERYONE does.   

So when someone cries out that no one is doing anything, it is always someone who refuses to see the greater spiritual dilemma that man faces.

So indeed,  quit straining at the gnat of this fleeting physical earth.

Could it be one point of view is looking at the fulfillment of Scriptures is to happen literally and the other view is that it's happening spiritually?

I've always been one to believe that you can't legislate spiritual truth . . . which to me means that regardless of who is in the white house, it's not going to advance or retard the plan of God for this nation, and for that matter, for the world. 

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

No matter how much darkness there is out there, it's never greater than the light that is also in our midst.  We just have to stop feeding the one and turn to the other and let the dead bury the dead.

Quote from: Nathan on November 13, 2008, 06:17:20 PM
Could it be one point of view is looking at the fulfillment of Scriptures is to happen literally and the other view is that it's happening spiritually?

I've always been one to believe that you can't legislate spiritual truth . . . which to me means that regardless of who is in the white house, it's not going to advance or retard the plan of God for this nation, and for that matter, for the world. 

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

No matter how much darkness there is out there, it's never greater than the light that is also in our midst.  We just have to stop feeding the one and turn to the other and let the dead bury the dead.

I pretty much agree Nathan.

My next point is not to focus only on one issue, but to use it because it is an example in my life.  not going to go down the trail of this singular issue if others respond that way.

The point I try to make is a road I have been down.  I used to rail against abortion, alot, was very involved against it, not necessarily an unworthy cause, but what good did I do when I propped myself up pointing the finger at others for not doing enough, when I couldn't treat my wife the way I was supposed to in my own home.

There are people I worked with in that realm  that believed the greater cause was served so that these other things were worthy sacrifices.  I followed their lead and it was a road to spiritual destruction.

I know a single mother who I worked with on the issue, and she was hailed in church as this tenacious person who loved God so much.  Yet, all her children were in therapy due to her broken marriage and the neglect of her children while she faught aginst abortion.  She found the road to spiritual destruction.

I know married couples that appear to be great, working for the cause,  you will also find them in marriage counseling as the time they spend on this so called worthy cause has destroyed their relationship.  They found the road to spiritual destruction.

As I saw this happening around me I left the cause, and was hated for it, accused of forsaking God and I was just giving up and allowing Satan to take my place, all kinds of nasty stuff.  What they didn't realize is I was neglecting the spirits of my family and I did follow God as I saw the evil I was in the midst of.

Thats one thing that is very difficult is taking something religious people have assigned the word Godly to and seeing it for the evil it is.

Does this mean we overlook abortion?  No,  but  later that single mother had to deal with her own daughter getting pregnant and getting an abortion.  Why, because she was led to believe that the physical world around her can actually be cured by what we do.  It's not meant to be cured, it is meant to pass away.  It is meant to be a training ground.

"The inhabitants of the earth will learn righteousness"

I can go on, but the problem is the misplaced duty we think we have to correct all the physical things in the earth.

Yes, love one another, be kind and share the hope that is within us, not the hope made from the physical realm.

Judgment starts in the house of God.  Is that this physical earth, or is that us and that is the house where God resides?

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  John 2:19

Everything is spiritual . . .I agree with you all the way.

Quote from: Zeek on November 13, 2008, 04:21:53 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 13, 2008, 04:19:32 PM

Nope, if only people would stop scripture mining.


Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


The spiritual life is the only place where peace will abound.

I agree. 

I agree.

QuoteIt is to get people to realize that we try to love Christ, but as Peter did, we deny him every day,  EVERYONE does.

Acts 5:15
Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2008, 08:18:55 PM

QuoteIt is to get people to realize that we try to love Christ, but as Peter did, we deny him every day,  EVERYONE does.

Acts 5:15
Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Sick people get healed on earth, that does not invalidate a thing I have said.

You can be healed of cancer and be spiritually DEAD.


Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


You can do all kinds of things in Jesus name and be spiritually dead.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

The biggest issue is, there are some here who know you should not have any condemnation in Christ Jesus. They do not recognize it is not because there is no right or wrong, or that nobody sins. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus because they walk after the Spirit and not after the things of the flesh. There is a right and a wrong way of doing things, that is why not all things are beneficial, and without recognizing right and wrong there is no repentance. Without repentance there is no change in a person's life. Moral subjectivity is not the answer to the freedom we have in Christ Jesus, it is grace and truth which is the freedom we have in Christ Jesus. 

Then there are those that seem to twist things that weren't actually said.  They did not say that there is no right and wrong.  What they said was, the truly mature ones do see right and wrong, but choose not to point out the wrong because as they grow in Christ, the come to realize, everyone has wrong in them, including themselves . .so they choose to work out there "own" salvation and if they see wrong in others . . .if there is an invitation for advice, it's freely shared IN LOVE. . .if it's not, then they don't assume they are "the" authority by pointing out the wrong any way.

Any adolescent believer will be quick to slap the hand of a wrong-doer and use their never-ending knowledge (be it by natural reasoning rather than spiritual revelation) to justify their constant finger pointing.

If I am as mature as I think I am, then the true manifestation comes out by the way I respond to another who I deem to be in the wrong.  No matter how much I am convinced they are wrong . . .when I ignore the fact that I do not have authority over them and choose to point out the wrongs anyway, then I am no better than those who I perceive to be wrong.

Law is the knowledge of sin . . . (Romans 3) emphasizing what's missing . .or who is missing the mark is to live according to the law.  There is no freedom there no matter how much the carnal mind is convinced that it's all Biblical.  The true plumb line is when that which is uttered either brings life or death.  Some are very clever in how they use their words to point out how wrong everyone else is, but in most cases, it's little more than clanging noise of brass.

It is not I that said you can't sin, it was Paul . . .other than denying it's truth, there's no other explanation given by the accuser.  My entire point of view has always been, and will continue to be that if I can get my head out of the equasion and be led by my heart, life will abound.  Freedom will come, and Truth will manifest.  If there is a fire that God has started in you that I don't fully understand, I promise you I will not throw a bunch of Scriptures at you telling you that fire burns.  Instead, I will rejoice with you that God is manifesting his light in you so that all others who live in darkness around you will benefit from it's warmth and light.

Be influenced by the fear of sinning if you wish, but there's a whole other realm within your reach once you just lay self down and let God do with it as he so chooses.  I choose the liberty of Christ, the easy yoke he's offered, the light burden he gives in return for simply believing "in" him.  And yes, there is NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.  Another sign of who's in and who's not.

QuoteThen there are those that seem to twist things that weren't actually said.

There is no twisting going on on my end. Plenty on yours and others.

Quote from: NathanThis person we're responding to has been badly scarred by the things of her mind and the best you can do is stomp all over someone elses attempt to comfort her?

Where was I addressing you or anyone else? I trampled over nobody else's attempt to comfort her. That is your insecurity and that is your fear.

Quote from: WillieHGOD is not about making you afraid... MEN, in their CARNAL WRECKLESSNESS and Corrupted THEOLOGY... seek to instill FEAR in their readers...

We find out later WillieH was talking about me. Where did I say God is making you afraid? I didn't, where do I instill fear in their readers? I didn't.

Quote from: NathanAny adolescent believer will be quick to slap the hand of a wrong-doer and use their never-ending knowledge (be it by natural reasoning rather than spiritual revelation) to justify their constant finger pointing.

I manipulated nothing. Pointing out wrong is what you did when you gave your big expose against me. A reply you were reprimanded for.

I spoke in general terms, there is right and there is a wrong. I did not nullify or excuse Love from this equation. Love overcomes all of this. Though you did not want to see this and neither do a few others.

Quote from: rhellisThere is no right and wrong, only love.

That is not what Scripture says, nor is this the Spirit speaking. There is a right and wrong, and there is love. Love is still the greatest but it does not rejoice in evil.

1 Corinthians 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

When a child does wrong before a loving father, he is disciplined. That doesn't mean his love changes for his son (a wicked father would).

So it is you who has the problem. It is you who is scared of any other message but your own. It is you who is scared not to be heard. It is you who insults others both public and in private. It is you who initiated this misunderstanding by your reply and it was you who was reprimanded for your insecurity because of it. You do not know forgiveness, and therefore you cannot know what it means to love.

1 John 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.

You stumbled, my reply is biblical sound and cannot be refuted except by opinions of others without foundation.

Then there are those who reject that there is anything right to do and if you fit in that category, read closely.

1 John 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

I rest this case. You reject right and wrong, you are not a child of God. You do not love your brother, you are not a child of God. Period. No way around it, there are some of you in this forum who serve Hedone, not the Father God and since you do not know what is wrong to repent of it you will be disciplined acordingly. If you are scared, then you are not yet perfect.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Surprising how people always forget to post the second part of that verse.

Nathan,

One of the responces I got when talking about my friends drug habits and how that is hurting his wife is that God is doing it and thats just the way it is.  That whatever will be will be till God decides otherwise.  The implication is that God is tempting him, when scripture states God will not do that but provide the escape.

The way of escape is just whatever will be will be?   

The implication was that my friend was doing nothing wrong.   I see someone saying "there is no right and wrong only Love"

ok, I know we are to love one another, but the implication of this feel good message is that if anything makes you feel bad then it is not of God,  that is ridiculous.

My friend has come close to killing his wife through neglect because of medical problems she has.  My friend states full well he knows he is aware of what he is doing and continues without trying because it makes him feel bad to try not to do it and if God didn't want him to do it, he would be prevented.  It's ridiculous to sit around and approve of that message.  That is not the message of scripture.

No right or wrong only love?  Maybe I am not to come down on my friend with a message of hate and condemnation, but I refuse to see in scripture that I am not to try to get my friend to see the scriptural nature of his plight especially when he claims to believe.

Of course I must look at myself as well and look to myself to see the nature in which I want to correct my friend.  But there are verses telling us to show one another the error of our ways.   Christianity teaches primarily that once you say your saved, then your no longer subject to the same judgment as the heathens in thw world and since God is going to cast away everyone that does not listen, they are taught to treat others accordingly.

So we have both side of the message that are taken to the extreme, when the bible says moderation in all things. 

Love sometimes creates the worst feeling we can ever imagine as the old ways are ripped from us, but we cannot sit back and just let things be when we are shown something is amiss.

I do not hate my friend, I do not rail on and on in condemnation to my friend, but I do not allow his comments that there is nothing he can do to stand without an admonishment to point out that he should try and keep trying no matter how futile or uncontrollable it seems and that,  yes,  God can work through with him and his addictions.   

But just to smile at my friend and say, go ahead, its alright, that is not love.

QuoteLove sometimes creates the worst feeling we can ever imagine as the old ways are ripped from us, but we cannot sit back and just let things be when we are shown something is amiss.

I thought that's what I've been saying...

QuoteBut just to smile at my friend and say, go ahead, its alright, that is not love.

That is right

Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 12:26:20 AM

QuoteLove sometimes creates the worst feeling we can ever imagine as the old ways are ripped from us, but we cannot sit back and just let things be when we are shown something is amiss.

I thought that's what I've been saying...

If I have misunderstood you then I apologize.  What I am talking about is the spiritual nature of things.   I also see the extremes.  I will not say abortion is ever right, but I will not forgo the spiritual things in my life to try to stop it.

I want my friend to stop using drugs, but not at the expense of his spirituality by stopping because he fears burning in hell forever.

Jesus admonished the pharasees,  he was kind to the prostitute, however he did not leave the prostitute with a mesage of do as thou will.   The message concerning the prostitute I see is as follows.

The pharasees are like the abortion right activists always pointing fingers at the baby killers wanting the law changed and casting the message of hatred at anyone who does not agree with everything they do.

Jesus came to show us that trying to correct the physical state on the earth through law is not how to go about it, but as we see with the prostitute he showed her the spirit and gave her light before telling her the responsibility she now has.

I think maybe where I misunderstood you molly is when you say "you" are waiting for someone else to do something.   We are never told to wait on anyone,  we are to do and not become bitter because things are not progressing how we like. 

I also do not believe we are to operate in a fashion towards others for things that we are not promised will happen.  A lot of things can be wrongly said to people when you think they can all make this earth a utopia and you expect them to do it.   It is the spirit we should be seeking to share.

QuoteI think maybe where I misunderstood you molly is when you say "you" are waiting for someone else to do something.   We are never told to wait on anyone,  we are to do and not become bitter because things are not progressing how we like. 

I am waiting for the stone uncut by human hands, for the numbers to reach critical mass, for the feet of clay and iron to be smashed, for the mountain that will fill the earth.  It's not so much to ask for--a world filled with truth, if only evil men would repent.


Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Not just me--all of creation is waiting.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 13, 2008, 09:07:25 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2008, 08:18:55 PM

QuoteIt is to get people to realize that we try to love Christ, but as Peter did, we deny him every day,  EVERYONE does.

Acts 5:15
Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Sick people get healed on earth, that does not invalidate a thing I have said.

You can be healed of cancer and be spiritually DEAD.

My point was--Peter changed.

Nevertheless, even as his old clueless self, he loved Christ and followed him everywhere.


Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 02:00:39 AM

QuoteI think maybe where I misunderstood you molly is when you say "you" are waiting for someone else to do something.   We are never told to wait on anyone,  we are to do and not become bitter because things are not progressing how we like. 

I am waiting for the stone uncut by human hands, for the numbers to reach critical mass, for the feet of clay and iron to be smashed, for the mountain that will fill the earth.  It's not so much to ask for--a world filled with truth, if only evil men would repent.

Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Not just me--all of creation is waiting.

Well, the issue is spiritual to me and it will happen.  Men will repent or there is no point in believing the UR message, but I do not ask for the physical things the bible makes no promise for.

well, I'm talking about Christians--per the title of this thread. 

And these sure sound like promises to me--





9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

--Isa 11





1The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

2It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

3Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

4Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

--Isa 35

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 04:39:00 AM
Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Of course--because he is kicking off a spiritual battle between good and evil which good will win--if only enough would join the army.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 04:44:16 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 04:39:00 AM
Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Of course--because he is kicking off a spiritual battle between good and evil which good will win--if only enough would join the army.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 05:11:22 AM
Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

Quote from: SOtW on November 14, 2008, 05:23:14 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 05:11:22 AM
Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

yeah tell that to all the parents of the kids who are dying of drug overdose--while the Christian population of this country does nothing--year after year.

Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 05:24:54 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 14, 2008, 05:23:14 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 05:11:22 AM
Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

yeah tell that to all the parents of the kids who are dying of drug overdose--while the Christian population of this country does nothing--year after year.

I do,  I tell them to never give up on thier kids, never let them think there is no hope and one day they will see the spiritual light. The problem most wont see is Romans 8:20

Our freedom is misunderstood, we have the freedom to make choices amongst a corrupt sin filled earth.  Paul one of the saints did things he did not want to do because sin was within him. 

And the verse that keeps getting ignored for what it says.  JESUS DID NOT COME TO BRING PEACE ON EARTH.

So if our peace is set in stone it cannot be in the hope for an earthly peace, the only thing left is spiritual.

But until people are given a spiritual light,  we cannot be all distraught that Christians aren't doing anything many of them call themselves Christians and haven't been given the light yet either.

Thats why I do not side with total freedom of will and circumstance nor side with the totality that we are just puppets and whatever is is.   There is a balance because if there is moderation in all things, then that includes what our will is and isn't capable of at any given moment.

We cannot live our lives trying to fix a corrupt earth that is not fixable through us.  We must live our lives to share the hope that is within us with faith and hope that when this earth passes away, the rewards have not vanished with it.

Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 05:24:54 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 14, 2008, 05:23:14 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 05:11:22 AM
Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

yeah tell that to all the parents of the kids who are dying of drug overdose--while the Christian population of this country does nothing--year after year.

You have no disagreement, that is my beef with Christians and those who think there is no right and wrong in God's creation that we are accountable and responsible for. We should be doing more than just sitting around on our thumbs.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

You are misunderstanding Paul's point, there those who we cannot reach and suffering does exist. Though there is something deeper which sets creation free from suffering and that is the Spirit of God. That doesn't stop us from going out and reaching those who are indeed reachable and living a life of servitude to God for all men as Ambassadors.

Quote from: SOtW on November 14, 2008, 05:43:13 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 05:24:54 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 14, 2008, 05:23:14 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 05:11:22 AM
Good does win because everyone joins.  Spiritually.

Indeed.

yeah tell that to all the parents of the kids who are dying of drug overdose--while the Christian population of this country does nothing--year after year.

You have no disagreement, that is my beef with Christians and those who think there is no right and wrong in God's creation that we are accountable and responsible for. We should be doing more than just sitting around on our thumbs.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

You are misunderstanding Paul's point, there those who we cannot reach and suffering does exist. Though there is something deeper which sets creation free from suffering and that is the Spirit of God. That doesn't stop us from going out and reaching those who are indeed reachable and living a life of servitude to God for all men as Ambassadors.

Agreed.

Quote from: DeeDee on November 03, 2008, 03:25:00 PM
Hi again all  :girlheart:

Since I am still very new to all this and lots of you have been living "The Good Christian Life" for a while now (not that I never believed in God Almighty and Lord Jesus Christ - just never really lived as best I could), I thought you could give your thoughts and outlines (supported biblically of course) of how to live the way God wants us to. Things like should we give up television or sport or music.

Looking forward to all your answers

Dee

Hi DeeDee,

Sorry I did not address your question directly.   The main problem I see with most religious instruction on how to live a Godly life is that there is not just one way of instruction.  You can buy as many books and get as many opinions and many of them leave you empty and frustrated and unpeaceful or discontent.

But many have one false thing in common and that is the belief that the more you do right the more you are pleasing God and therefore the better your life will be.

The circumstances your in has nothing to do with how much you please or don't please God.  If you have done wrong things, it is most likely that you simply are Reaping what you Sow. And then there is just life that brings the things it does and our personal actions probably had nothing to do with it.


Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


Whether you are reaping physical consequenses , emotional or spiritual, none of it has anything to do with Gods displeasure in you.   The teachings that God gives and withholds blessings in that manner is a lie.

I read the other day where someone wrote  "I am glad God is on my side, or rather I'm on his" 

Someone asked, "what do you mean"  The person responded that their circumstances worked out how they liked it because they served God"

As difficult as it is to critisize a view like that, it is a lie.

Because that lie will make you think that everytime you do something wrong that God is there pulling the plug on his spirit.

The other side of things is that God is so fuzzy wuzzy that it does not matter what you do.   Of course there is a right and wrong, but God is there as a father to teach us what is right, to help us understand that we are to repent so that we can grow and help others grow, not so we can avoid the monster.

Changes within us can be painful, they can be difficult, but the end result is that we are perfected in christ.   Yes, I believe we should try to correct our bretheren, NOT in condemnation, but for the hope and glory of their spiritual growth.

Take heart, that there is nothing you can do, really, nothing,  that will separate you from God, nothing that will cause him to love you less.   He wants you to repent and he will guide you to it,  it is his promise, even if he seems vacant sometimes.


2Pt 3:9 . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


He is not willing for DeeDee to perish, he is longsuffering to DeeDee and that She should come to repentance.

Thats Gods promise for you.

QuoteBecause that lie will make you think that everytime you do something wrong that God is there pulling the plug on his spirit.

King David found out that wasn't a lie, didn't he?


7And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

8And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

9Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

10Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

12For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

--2 Samuel 12

Quote
Because that lie will make you think that everytime you do something wrong that God is there pulling the plug on his spirit.

Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 05:37:01 PM
King David found out that wasn't a lie, didn't he?

He reaped what he sowed,  God loved David no less than he did before. 

Bad things happen to people and some Christians teach a lie that if something bad happens it was because you was not pleasing God enough.

It works multiple ways, our actions have consequenses, but this corrupt life also exists and we are subject to  it.  It has nothing to do with our ability to please God to avoid these things.  It is a lie to teach such nonsense.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 05:46:26 PM

Bad things happen to people and some Christians teach a lie that if something bad happens it was because you was not pleasing God enough.

It works multiple ways, our actions have consequenses, but this corrupt life also exists and we are subject to  it.  It has nothing to do with our ability to please God to avoid these things.  It is a lie to teach such nonsense.

Love what you said Paul here
  you know Peter  really blessed me here to say that  God will/desire  it that you suffer for doing good instead of evildoing   
and lot of the way we speak and treat one another carrys  a lot of weight , with God anyways  , the world will hate you it hated Christ presence first
and the Presence of Christs spirit in you will be no different ......

but keeping your COOL is so much easier said, than done  :msealed:


1 PETER 3 ;9not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

10For,
         "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS,
         MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.
    11"HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD;
         HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.
    12"FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
         AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER,
         BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL."

13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?

14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

part of the Holy Spirit conviction  to me is knowing your conscience  and being aware of it troubling you ,for harming in anger and lack of control , I am so guilty of this  personally 
   such a big difference  from the devils accusing spirit when you KNOW you are innocent  from the accusations  being made 

GOD sees it , hears it and Knows it too !  the  perfect  Judge is present
  to give  sentance   and  what if they/you  do the tresspass / it ignorantly 

  without knowledge ?  thats where I think they stay in a place of  being watched  by the Lord    and if they do it knowing the Truth  there is no more excuse  , Jesus did not die in Vain /for nothing 

 

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 05:46:26 PM

Bad things happen to people and some Christians teach a lie that if something bad happens it was because you was not pleasing God enough.

It works multiple ways, our actions have consequenses, but this corrupt life also exists and we are subject to  it.  It has nothing to do with our ability to please God to avoid these things.  It is a lie to teach such nonsense.

That's what Job's 'friends' said--you must have done something to bring this on yourself.

But, we know that isn't true, because we know the whole story--the discussion that went on in heaven.

Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 06:33:42 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 05:46:26 PM

Bad things happen to people and some Christians teach a lie that if something bad happens it was because you was not pleasing God enough.

It works multiple ways, our actions have consequenses, but this corrupt life also exists and we are subject to  it.  It has nothing to do with our ability to please God to avoid these things.  It is a lie to teach such nonsense.

That's what Job's 'friends' said--you must have done something to bring this on yourself.

But, we know that isn't true, because we know the whole story--the discussion that went on in heaven.

Yes, in Jobs case circumstances beyond his control did not happen because of his displeasure to God.

However, if a person jumps off the roof of a 3 story building,  you reap the consequenses of that action.

If you do not live a good life, indeed, you may miss out on eartly treasures and rewards. But I won't sugar coat that we may have to suffer through our accountability. None of that has to do with God loving us more or less. 


I believe the issue DeeDee is facing is living a life less than desirable and feeling as if God may love Her less and therefor directly acting to make her life less desirable that what she might physically hope for.

If anyone teaches that DeeDee should feel as if God loves her less and that is the cause of many of her circumstances, it is a Lie.   And no, I will not sit around doing nothing while lies are being taught like that because it is a spiritual thing to understand that in the midst of what we might believe is utter failure, God is not willing that our spirit perish.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 14, 2008, 12:04:36 AM

Nathan,

One of the responces I got when talking about my friends drug habits and how that is hurting his wife is that God is doing it and thats just the way it is.  That whatever will be will be till God decides otherwise.  The implication is that God is tempting him, when scripture states God will not do that but provide the escape.

The way of escape is just whatever will be will be?   

The implication was that my friend was doing nothing wrong.   I see someone saying "there is no right and wrong only Love"

ok, I know we are to love one another, but the implication of this feel good message is that if anything makes you feel bad then it is not of God,  that is ridiculous.

My friend has come close to killing his wife through neglect because of medical problems she has.  My friend states full well he knows he is aware of what he is doing and continues without trying because it makes him feel bad to try not to do it and if God didn't want him to do it, he would be prevented.  It's ridiculous to sit around and approve of that message.  That is not the message of scripture.

No right or wrong only love?  Maybe I am not to come down on my friend with a message of hate and condemnation, but I refuse to see in scripture that I am not to try to get my friend to see the scriptural nature of his plight especially when he claims to believe.

Of course I must look at myself as well and look to myself to see the nature in which I want to correct my friend.  But there are verses telling us to show one another the error of our ways.   Christianity teaches primarily that once you say your saved, then your no longer subject to the same judgment as the heathens in thw world and since God is going to cast away everyone that does not listen, they are taught to treat others accordingly.

So we have both side of the message that are taken to the extreme, when the bible says moderation in all things. 

Love sometimes creates the worst feeling we can ever imagine as the old ways are ripped from us, but we cannot sit back and just let things be when we are shown something is amiss.

I do not hate my friend, I do not rail on and on in condemnation to my friend, but I do not allow his comments that there is nothing he can do to stand without an admonishment to point out that he should try and keep trying no matter how futile or uncontrollable it seems and that,  yes,  God can work through with him and his addictions.   

But just to smile at my friend and say, go ahead, its alright, that is not love.

Very busy thread here . . .
Paul . .and others who seem to have misunderstood my point of view dealing with sin and such . . .

This example you've given above is no where near what I've been trying to project.  I have never implied that when we sin, it's God's fault so whatever will be will be.  I have never implied that there are not consequences for our actions.  This story you shared is tragic to say the least, but this guy has serious issues with his theology. 

It's difficult to try to share differences on a mature level when things keep getting taken out of context and the mudslinging begins . .which I then become part of the problem by slinging mud back and no one benefits from any of it.  The idea that you can live in sin and not face consequences is nuts.  I never have said that . .and if it came across that way, I apologize.

My message to any who's willing to read it "within it's context" is that you not walk around, beating yourself up over the fact that you can't live up to your own brand of Christian standards.  To do so is to ignore the finished works of the cross that gave you access to living in righteousness . . .despite your carnal mind in you.  . . me  . . in all of us. 

Balance . . .great, let's talk balance.  In any given day, there is a measure of pleanstries and a measure of discomforts that we all experience.  Just how healthy is it for me to continually focus on the problems I had today?  Is that my identity?  If someone asks how my day is, how do I respond?  Do I respond according to my present state?  If things have not been going in my favor, does that constitute a bad day?  Or, is it more healthier for me to "look for" the postitive things I've experienced and keep my mind from staying in those low places?

It's the same thing I've been trying to say on a spiritual plain.  We all have sin in our lives.  But just how healthy is it to dwell on the fact that I can not live up to the law?  I don't have the ability to fulfill any of it.  Jesus said if you break one, you've broken all of them.  We become so sin-concious that we miss out on the blessings not only that were given to us, but we also miss out on being a blessing to someone else . .all because we continue to focus on who is living right and who isn't.  And to those who are not, we take it upon ourselves to assume the role of the Holy Spirit to turn them around.

This guy who's addicted to drugs . . . the fact that he's taking drugs . . . does that make him any more or less righteous before God?  Because as near as I can tell, what makes me righteous is not what I do, but what has already been done.  Did this guy not already know taking drugs are wrong?  It appears he's already ignored that fact . . . let me get off your friend specifically because I don't want you to think I'm condemning you in dealing with him. 

Say it's anyone . . .there are many here on these forums that have no problem drinking beer . . . yet it's one of the biggest killers we have in our society.  Does drinking a beer make me any less worthy?  Does shooting up?  Sleeping around?  Is there any act that I do that makes me any less righteous?  To say there is, would be to say that what ever the sin was, it's stronger than the blood of the Lamb. 

Okay, so . . . it doesn't affect my righteousness.  Does that make doing it OK?  Of course not.  But it's not worthy of religious condemnation either.  Now, on the other hand, it "does" have other adverse affects.  Say the drugs for instance . . .my body becomes addicted to a poison that will eventually kill me if I don't get some sort of control over it.  It most definitely will destroy my relationships.  It destroys my income abilities . .. it has all kinds of negative affects in that way.

So . . .if I have someone who's into drugs and I approach them about it . . . what's my agenda?  If it doesn't affect their righteousness . .they why quote Scripture at them?  They're already addicted to fleshly desires and all my attempts to religionize them is only going to drive them further away from me, and deeper into their addiction . .only now, they have the added shame of realizing other people think they are now a substandard product. 

But on the other hand, if I can leave my doctrine at the door and just be their friend and try to work "with" them and give them support, and yes true love, and companionship . .and in some cases, space . . . over a committed amount of time, there is a greater chance that they could kick this habit through that rather than through me telling them how far outside of God's will they really are. 

Even if they're quoting Scripture defending their actions . . .where do you suppose they got that tactic from?  They got it mostly from whatever church they have been in contact with sometime in their life, by someone to misinterpreted the Word and quoted a bunch of stuff out of context and got them all messed up in their own mind.  The more I point out the shadows in you, the less you're going to want to hang around me.

Is not God's light strong enough to drive out the darkest nature in man?  That's why I take the position I do.  I do believe light truly is stronger than darkness and if I discern darkness from the light, why would I choose to point out the darkness?  If I pursue the light, that act in and of itself will drive out the darkness on it's own merit.

You can tell wrong from right?  Great!  Fabulous!  Now what?  Point out the wrong?  Or pursue the right?  I think that's what Paul was also eluding to when he stated he is only to preach Christ and him crucified.  it's not about all of those different shades of understanding in doctrines and theology.  Pursue love and that love will transform you and reproduce through you into others. 

I really don't care how rediculous it sounds . . .it's not about wrong and right.  If I'm wrong and your right . . .big deal . .now what?  If I'm right and you're wrong . .same thing . .big deal.  Who gets the glory in that?  If I'm right . . .I get the glory of proving my rightness . .if you're right . .you get the glory . . .either way, we're putting Christ in the back seat every time we let ourselves get caught up in these petty arguments.

But if we can lay our knowledge of what's right and wrong down and just love through all of it . .then God gets the glory and "that" is so much more benefiicial to all of us.

Forgive me Nathan, I should have quoted what I was responding to from your message in reference to saying no one was saying there are no rights and wrongs.

But I can move on from that, I do not really disagree with you for the most part.

Some things can be petty, but the realm of someones spiritual well being and the ways that it can be strengthened or weakened is not one I'll apologize for engaging in.   :happy3:

Quote from: NathanSay it's anyone . . .there are many here on these forums that have no problem drinking beer . . . yet it's one of the biggest killers we have in our society.  Does drinking a beer make me any less worthy?  Does shooting up?  Sleeping around?  Is there any act that I do that makes me any less righteous?  To say there is, would be to say that what ever the sin was, it's stronger than the blood of the Lamb. 

Okay, so . . . it doesn't affect my righteousness. 

Yes I think it does affect your righteousness, your relationship with God, in the moment.

That's the whole point of King David.   He pays the consequences of his sin, which once unleashed, moves to lies, adultery, and murder.

God's protection is removed from him, meaning God is turning his face away from him.

Interestingly, it is God who seems really hurt during the exchange with David.  God says to David, I gave you everything and if that was not enough I would have given you more.  And, this is how you repay me?

Our sin is all sin against God.  God cannot be in the presence of sin--that is why he sends Nathan to talk to David.

That said, we are able to be restored through Jesus, but it is up to us to repent, meaning to turn towards God once again.


Psalm 27:9
Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

Sorry, Molly, I can't agree with the part about the sin affecting the righteousness.  Grace is so much more powerful than my sin.  My sin may affect my perspectives of spiritual things, but it does not affect my state of righteousness.  Remember, Abraham was called as righteous "before" he was circumcised. 

When Jesus breathed his last breath, he did an act that no other act can over-ride.  Interesting to believe in UR but also in works-based righteousness. 

The affects of the first Adam has reached every breathing man . . .yet the affects of the last Adam reach to greater parts than the first.  Death where is your victory, grave where is your sting?  The power of the cross is stronger than anything our minds can comprehend. 

The issue with David, that was one of the most blatant sins . . not just the adultery . . and not even the killing of the husband . .but this husband was one of the reknown mighty men in David's army that would literally risk his own life for the protection of Davids.  And yet, David used him like toilet paper. 

But even there, it did "not" affect his righteousness in God. 

If we look at all the Old Testament characters from a New Testament perspective, you would never know they were normal people with blemishes in their spiritual walks at all.  Job according to the New Testament is a saint for never giving up the faith while enduring what was apparently needless suffering.  But when you read the book of Job . . it's tough to read through all of the whining and grumbling.

Abraham . . considered in the New Testament as "the" patriarch of Faith.  Yet when you read his story, you see his faith wasn't as great as it's portrayed to be because he didn't wait for the prophetic word to come to pass, he took matters into his own hands as a result of natural reasoning, and created a whole other nation that was constantly at war with the nation that finally did come about as promised.

And David is no different.  According to the New Testament, the coined phrase on him was not about his failures, but that he was a man after God's own heart.

There are tons of opportunities to dwell on the fodder of the flesh, but the example is all through the New Testament that God IS BLIND to the fodder more than our limited minds are willing to admit. 

The actions of David carried great consequences . .but it didn't affect his relationship with God.  In fact, I'd say the consequences were a result of the fact that the relationship remained entact.  I don't measure my relationship with God by the level of my confidence in myself.  Infact, I don't measure my relationship with God at all.  It's immeasurable.  And it's constant . .and without end.  It's immovable and unshakable.  Not because of anything I do or don't do . . "inspite" of what I do or don't do . .it remains constant (faithful).  Grace is just that powerful.

well, I don't generally think in terms of grand schemes and big pictures with regard to God.  God is found for me in the moments of each day.  To that extent I am able to deal with the issues that I need to deal with as they come up.  Certainly, it all worked out well for David in the end, but the living through it was very tough for him.  Maybe that's why they say, the devil is in the details.


13And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

15And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

16David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

17And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

--2 Sam 12

BIBLE:  :2c:

Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth

willieH:  :sigh:

Quote from: WillieHGOD is not about making you afraid... MEN, in their CARNAL WRECKLESSNESS and Corrupted THEOLOGY... seek to instill FEAR in their readers...

Quote from: SOtW on November 13, 2008, 11:28:19 PMWe find out later WillieH was talking about me. Where did I say God is making you afraid? I didn't, where do I instill fear in their readers? I didn't.

Oh but you do!  Not just in posting in this thread... but in YOUR observation and judgment of others (of whom you know NOTHING about)...

You continuously perpetuate PERSONAL "REPONSIBILITY" for SIN... which was LONG AGO, ...NEUTRALIZED by GRACE... BEFORE a man was even existently IN NEED of that GRACE... (from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD)...

Nowhere is it stated WE are RESPONSIBLE... only ACCOUNTABLE... (Rom 14:12)...

CHRIST counsels us to clothe ourselves with Him, that our SHAME [account] might be covered in the Judgment (Rev 3:18)... otherwise our INCORRUPT DEEDS and their subsequent NAKEDNESS, shall appear before the THRONE of JUDGMENT... to tearful dismay...

The WORK of GRACE is NOT VENGENCE, rather, it is to RECLAIM that which has gone astray and become found in the disarray of loss... read the parables...  :dontknow:

In TRAFFIC court, someone is held in ACCOUNT [us] for a given offense... (facing the music), but then, if they are without the funds to pay the fines due... and another [CHRIST] steps forward and PAYS...  The REPONSIBILITY for PAYMENT is thereby RELIEVED...   They still found their SHAME [accountability] before the court... but the PAYMENT for the OFFENSE [responsibility] was found done by ANOTHER...

CHRIST took ALL SIN to His Cross... yet sotw... you would have its RESPONSIBILITY continue, and furthermore... its PAYMENT to be MADE by those who "KNOW NOT what THEY DO"...  :thumbdown:

Paul amply noted the principle and POWER of GRACE... but sotw... you would enact your own judgments as to WHO is in the body of CHRIST, and then proceed to determine their lives concerning the unity of that Body... without KNOWING those lives (which are IN the hands of CHRIST, the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our FAITH)...  :thumbdown:

Rom  5:20  Moreover the LAW [which indicates SIN] entered, that the OFFENSE [SIN] might abound.  But WHERE SIN ABOUNDED... GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND...

This Scripture is NOTING that the TEMPORAL CONDEMNATION of SIN [by the LAW] in any amount or degree, as taught by SOME [sotw], is that men are somehow RESPONSIBLE for that SIN, ...which in TRUTH, is found DWARFED by presence and ETERNAL POWER of GRACE...

And Scripture also notes, that GOD does the DRAWING of men into that GRACE which DRAWING, brings them into TRUTH, and PROVIDES the WAY, thereby gaining the LIFE, provided IN and BY the sacrifice of His Son who AUTHORS and FINISHES the FAITH to BELIEVE that TRUTH:

Heb 12:2  ...looking unto JESUS, the AUTHOR [alpha] and FINISHER [omega] of FAITH...

Once the FAITH is "AUTHORED" it is processed unto it's COMPLETION... not by the one in which it was AUTHORED, but by the ONE which AUTHORED it... as HE "FINISHES" that FAITH according to HIS WILL, which is the only WILL that is INCORRUPT... dealing with the INCORRUPTIONS inherent in the lives of the one PROCESSED... unto its COMPLETION which results in INCORRUPTION (1 Cor 15:42-44 / 52-58) NOT due to US, but DUE to HIM... As follows:

John 14:6  ...I am the way the TRUTH and the life, ...NO MAN comes unto the Father, BUT ...BY... ME...

CHRIST is the only "route" to Heaven... but MAN cannot INITIATE that route:

John 6:44  ...no MAN CAN come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me, DRAW him...

The FATHER [not sotw], DRAWS the one CORRUPT, and IN that DRAWING, brings them into INCORRUPT understandings ACCORDING to HIS WILL and WORK... (Eph 1:11)... bringing ALL unto Himself in due time:

1 Tim 2:6 ...who gave Himself a RANSOM for ALL, to be TESTIFIED, in DUE TIME...

John 12:32  ...and If I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW ALL MEN, unto Me.

You internally observe that the WORK of righteousness as done... in and by YOU... and thereby PRETEND to observe others [without knowledge of them] as in unrighteousness, having forgotten that YOUR WORK is filthy... and FORGET [if you ever knew] that only WORK done BY CHRIST, ...in you... has any redeeming value...

To include the misobservations of YOURSELF and, the misobservations of OTHERS yet in the DRAWING processes...  Calling them as in DISUNITY of the BODY... as if YOUR (unrighteous) postion is worthy of making that judgment... :pitiful:

peacE...
willieH      :cloud9:

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast give great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme....

--2 Sam 12


What does this mean?

Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2008, 12:04:09 AM
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast give great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme....

--2 Sam 12


What does this mean?

It means by your own deeds, you have caused many to stumble and reject Him based on false pretenses that your actions caused..

Romans 2:24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

1 Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

Quote from: SOtW on November 15, 2008, 12:08:11 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2008, 12:04:09 AM
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast give great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme....

--2 Sam 12


What does this mean?

It means by your own deeds, you have caused many to stumble and reject Him.

Romans 2:24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

Why are they called enemies of the LORD and how are they blaspheming?

The name of God is defamed because of you?  wow that's heady stuff.. :mshock:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

well, I'm going to jump in here on the division of things and let the chips fall where they may.

If you start back through the thread Craig was posting his thoughts as we all ought to be allowed to do here, he singled out no one, he might have made some remarks about how some people look at things, but that is not wrong because sometimes it is good to see a perspective that might fit us even if our name is not mentioned.  


I think we should have the liberty to indirectly address a post so that we are not directly condemning someone personally.

Nathans first responce singled Craig out.

QuoteReally?  "That's" how you judge between a mature Christian and an infant?

This person we're responding to has been badly scarred by the things of her mind and the best you can do is stomp all over someone elses attempt to comfort her?

Willie also singled Craig out with this comment.

Quote

"A grand collection of self originated LEGALISM..."

Go read the first page of the thread and see if I am wrong, I will stand corrected if it is shown that Craig named names and directly created a divisive post.    I am not saying anyone is perfect,  but the first page is fairly easy to see where it originated this time.

willieH: Hi  :icon_king:-s  &  :icon_queen: -s

Want some PERSONAL comments?

Well, ...here is some PERSONAL commentary... found in THIS THREAD, in replies #18 & #19:

Quote from: willieH on November 13, 2008, 08:11:41 AM
I got nothing against you Craig...  Learn to LOVE a little bro...  It really blows my mind that after 4 years of our bickering that you do not see that GOD has put us together to LOVE one another...  :HeartThrob:

When is it going to happen?  :dunno:

I'm willing, ...are you?  :friendstu:

To which I received the immediate (...LOVING???) comment from Craig:

Quote from: SOtW on November 13, 2008, 08:21:12 AM
Whatever floats your boat WillieH.

:omg:

If my wife and I were in a disagreement which causes a temporary separation, In which She said: "dont you realize that GOD has put us together to LOVE one another, ...I'm willing, are you?"

And I immediately replied with:  "whatever floats your boat"...

Do-ya think that she's gonna run up and give me a hug?  :faint:

If you think so, ...you are definitely  :wacko2:

Is my response to her a LOVING comment?  :mshrug:  Is it POSTIVE in any way?  :dunno:  Is it one with the potential END the disagreement/separation?  :dunno2:

YOU do the MATH!  :dontknow:  And THEN get back to me... about disunity...  :sigh:

PS... sorry DeeDee and all others, for this sidetracking... and for my portion of the current dissensions  between Craig and I (4 yrs and counting), that you have suffered through in this thread...  :blush:

Brother Willi, you've got a lot to offer.  Thanks for your insightful posts.  Maybe there's another topic you can help on.  God's blessing, James.

Quote from: jabcat on November 15, 2008, 07:00:13 AM
Brother Willi, you've got a lot to offer.  Thanks for your insightful posts.  Maybe there's another topic you can help on.  God's blessing, James.

Thanks bro... for your uplifting encouragements...  :friendstu:

Hey Nathan, you said you're "done"...don't go anywhere, except at the appropriate point and time, away from fruitless struggles .  Speak the truth and then move on to the next glory.  I'm benefiting from your posts.  God is using you brother. 


Also Paul, I liked your post about the abortion issue...as much as it goes against my "moral" fiber, I agree, we should not be condemning, but speak the truth in love..showing the light and the way [Jesus] out of the darkness...

God bring that about in my being...

God's blessing, James.

Knowing what is wrong, is not condemnation. Who ever taught people that definition is mentally unstable and unlearned and in need of serious therapy because they have a victim's mentality and a sin consciousness where all they can see is sin. Jesus did not lie when He said, it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean but what comes out. From the abundance of the heart, the mouth always speaks. People who see skeletons around every corner, suffer from skeletons; people who see condemnation around every instruction, suffer from condemnation.  There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, and yet there is still judgment concerning right and wrong; there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus but we are still judged according to our deeds and our words; we may be found wrong, but He is merciful and forgiving and able to bring correction by His power and His might; we may be doing wrong, but He has given us grace sufficient in our time of need and a mind and spirit of repentance so that we may continue to do what is good.

It is not good and moral to abort children, but those who abort their children suffer the consequences of their actions and already received their reward in full. It is not good and moral to fornicate and commit adultery with one another, but those who fornicate and commit adultery already received their reward in full. It is not good to horde your wealth while your neighbor starves, but those who horde their wealth already received their reward in full.

In everything I have ever wrote, there has NEVER been condemnation. How one feels when presented with the knowledge of good and evil, is irrelevant because we are wretched men but without excuse to continue in wickedness. Most of all condemnation in this thread is done by self and not others, and sadly this very fact is what why we see this problem play out every day, month and year. The feeling of fear and condemnation is not evidence of fear or condemnation except in the mind and heart of the one who feels it. In other words, it is not an external battle, but an inner one that you must take up with God and not against your brother.

As others have already stated in this thread, there is nothing in this thread which I have done in order to receive such treatment and if you find a point, they stated, along with myself, we will admit wrong and repent. Yet, none have done so, through circular reasoning they have taken my replies to their initiated insults out of context and have turned what was meant for good into evil.

To my accusers, I am without condemnation and free from any guilt or wrong committed for I have done nothing wrong in sharing the knowledge of the Truth. My love is never changing, nor do I hate anyone and I do forgive all you for your constant insults and accusations. You have no power over me, and I will not be swayed by any opinion which labels me falsely. Perhaps one day, instead of relying on their own understanding, they will recognize the voice of the Lord in what it means to take the timber out of their eye, before taking the tick out of their neighbor.

Love does not rejoice in evil, and God has warned us all to warned our brothers of the error of their way. The motivation behind any warning in Scripture is not fear, but love because we all reap what we sow. If we can tear up the ground destroying the old seed and planting a new seed through our repentance, our change in mind, we will can prevent a harvest worthy only of destruction and fire, near cursed and partake in a bountiful harvest with the Lord.

For four years, people on this forum have claimed to know me but they do not. They know not one thing about me, just as Judas knew nothing of Jesus who chose him. They boast in their love, and point the finger of disunity and dissension not realizing that finger is what started it in the first place.

If you want to know what makes a good moral Christian life, one must know what is good and moral.

QuoteIf you want to know what makes a good moral Christian life, one must know what is good and moral.

Thats the answer to my question.

Question: "How does one live a good moral christian life?"

Answer: "Knowing what is good and moral and living according to that is what makes a good moral christian.

:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

willieH: Hey Ya'll...  :grouppray:

John 13:35 ...by THIS shall ALL MEN KNOW that ye are MY DISCIPLES:  ...if YE have LOVE... one to another...

Simple as that...  :boogie:  Complicating GRACE with other than LOVE, is to distort GRACE and its IMAGE presented by those claiming its existence within...

By LOVING one another do we display that we are the DISCIPLES of CHRIST...  NOT by demanding to be correct... or determining others INCORRECT...

Some need to TRY this METHOD [LOVE] on for size, instead of dissertations in their own words as to "how to live a good moral Christian life"...

LOVE one another in JESUS, showing ALL observers that LOVE is that which is AT WORK in you... then that LOVE, shall notify others that you are amongst His DISCIPLES...  :dontknow:

The ONLY reward to seek in this life, is that the LORD JESUS CHRIST is made known to others... which is reward enough...

Promote His LOVE, not judgment... His LOVE, not vengence... His LOVE, not fear... His LOVE, by deferring any attention and credit, from yourself, to HIM...  :declare:

Thereby, ...ENLARGING His GRACE...  :angel5:  ...whilst diminishing self...  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jabcat on November 16, 2008, 07:43:47 AM
Hey Nathan, you said you're "done"...don't go anywhere, except at the appropriate point and time, away from fruitless struggles .  Speak the truth and then move on to the next glory.  I'm benefiting from your posts.  God is using you brother. 


Also Paul, I liked your post about the abortion issue...as much as it goes against my "moral" fiber, I agree, we should not be condemning, but speak the truth in love..showing the light and the way [Jesus] out of the darkness...

God bring that about in my being...

God's blessing, James.

:goodpost:  I strongly agree with this James!  :bgdance:

You are a beloved brother, Nathan... stick with us...  :cloud9:

Quote from: DeeDee on November 16, 2008, 10:06:36 AM

QuoteIf you want to know what makes a good moral Christian life, one must know what is good and moral.

Thats the answer to my question.

Question: "How does one live a good moral christian life?"

Answer: "Knowing what is good and moral and living according to that is what makes a good moral christian.

:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

Exactly! And for reasons unknown yet apparently present, for some the knowledge of what is good and moral seems to be a great controversy because there is a false presumption, a false stigma, which states: if one does not live a good and moral life and does not live accordingly, that they are somehow condemned and such standards were fear based and not for the sake of the good we were created to do in the first place. Such slippery slope reasoning is a dangerous precedent because it is this fear of condemnation that keeps them in bondage to fear and condemnation. It is such a sad irony.

So indeed, do what is good and moral and live accordingly, that is what makes a good moral Christian.

Quote from: DeeDee on November 16, 2008, 10:06:36 AM

QuoteIf you want to know what makes a good moral Christian life, one must know what is good and moral.

Thats the answer to my question.

Question: "How does one live a good moral christian life?"

Answer: "Knowing what is good and moral and living according to that is what makes a good moral christian.

:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

Yes, easier said than done, as history has demonstrated.

Not that it should be that complicated--but somehow it turns out that way.

QuoteBy LOVING one another do we display that we are the DISCIPLES of CHRIST...  NOT by demanding to be correct... or determining others INCORRECT...

I don't know, Willie.  Christians don't seem to do very well in the love department.  Germany was one of the great Christian nations of the world, but Hitler and his handlers, having started a war, was responsible for the deaths of about 55 million soldiers and civilians worldwide, give or take a few tens of millions.

I would much rather people get it through their heads what is right and wrong in an absolute sense, than to depend on such love from humans.

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: willieHBy LOVING one another do we display that we are the DISCIPLES of CHRIST...  NOT by demanding to be correct... or determining others INCORRECT...

Quote from: Molly on November 16, 2008, 10:52:44 AMI don't know, Willie.  Christians don't seem to do very well in the love department.

I agree Molly... which is why victory is found in FEW... not MANY...

Quote from: Molly on November 16, 2008, 10:52:44 AMGermany was one of the great Christian nations of the world, but Hitler and his handlers, having started a war, was responsible for the deaths of about 55 million soldiers and civilians worldwide, give or take a few tens of millions.

First... If a MILITARY leader or President begins an atrocious war, are the people under them [common non-military citizens] held responsible for their deeds?  If Obama takes the reigns and convinces the leadership of America to attack another nation... are you and I responsible?  Most, if not ALL nations do not have a "say-so" in military matters at ALL...

Secondly... CHRIST's ...DISCIPLES... are not His DISCIPLES because they CLAIM to be... they are His DISCIPLES when they DO as DID HE... which is LOVE God with ALL His heart... and LOVING His neighbor, ...AS... Himself... which was displayed quite plainly in His life... showing YHVH to be GOD of His heart... for GOD is LOVE...

"Christians" are MANY... and the Lord said THIS about MANY:

Matt 7:22-23 ...MANY... will say to ME in that day:  Lord, Lord [THESE are herein noting Him LORD=believers] have WE [claiming the following as THEIR OWN DOINGS] not PROPHESIED in Thy Name?  and in Thy Name have CAST OUT DEVILS? and in Thy Name DONE many WONDERFUL WORKS? ...and then will I profess unto THEM, I never KNEW you; depart from Me, ye that WORK iniquity!

The "iniquity" they commited wasn't the Prophesying or the Casting Out of Devils, or the Wonderful Works... it was THEM claiming THEY DID these things... instead of giving the GLORY to LOVE, which ...IS... GOD...  Had they LOVED GOD with ALL their Heart, and their neighbor as themselves, they would have been found in HUMILITY instead of BRAGGING to GOD of themselves and all the "DID"...

Quote from: Molly on November 16, 2008, 10:52:44 AMI would much rather people get it through their heads what is right and wrong in an absolute sense, than to depend on such love from humans.

It is not up to YOU or I to "get it through their heads" of right and wrong... that is the WORK of GOD, in us...  If we are submitted to LOVING with ALL that Heart, both GOD first, then our NEIGHBOR, ...then we are become a TOOL in His hand to impart Himself TO them...  the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE...  and WE remain NOTHING but a TOOL...

When one goes out to the garage and builds a cabinet of Wood... the Hammer, saw, nails, garage, and wood don't get the CREDIT for BUILDING the cabinet...  :dontknow:  They were NECESSARY in the building, but the BUILDER gets the credit... and though they were all part, they are NOT to be credited for anything concerning the creation of the cabinet... :mnah:

Ps 127:1  ...except YHVH build the house, they labour in VAIN, that build it... except YHVH keep the city, the watchmen waketh in VAIN...

Unless LOVE is found the SUPREME commander of the Heart... the teachings which pour forth from it, are IN VAIN...   Which is why we must all strive in our lives to DIE DAILY to ourselves, that LOVE [GOD] may bring forth Himself, from our hearts to others...  :HeartThrob:

QuoteFirst... If a MILITARY leader or President begins an atrocious war, are the people under them [common non-military citizens] held responsible for their deeds?  If Obama takes the reigns and convinces the leadership of America to attack another nation... are you and I responsible?

Yes of course we are, especially under our form of government which is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic.   And, if we are too silly and empty headed to hold ourselves responsible, the world will--as they did Germany and the German citizens.  In like manner, we are responsible for our own actions and every idle word.


I just watched a full length movie on youtube about Sophie Scholl.   She was a 21 year old college student in 1942 Nazi Germany who, along with her brother and other young friends,  started secretly printing pamphlets against the reign of the Fuhrer.  They called themselves the 'white rose.'   They were all devout Christians.  In 1943, they were captured by the Gestapo, tried in the People's Court (sounds Communistic, doesn't it?), and sentenced to death for thought crimes (sound familiar?) and hate speech (sound familiar?) and guillotined that same afternoon.   All this for writing a few words on a piece of paper.  Bet you didn't know that the Nazis guillotined 20,000 German dissenters, did you?  Our public education, and even our better colleges, hide such atrocities from all but satan's  initiates, who study real history in the hopes of repeating it.

As for love, where was it?  These young people were surrounded by Germans who clearly felt guilty about what was going on, who somewhere in the dark recesses of their sick minds could feel a twinge of compassion and guilt for what they were doing to their own children, but who had long since compromised their consciences and the Law of God out of existence.

Love is an action, not a feeling.  And, it is an action based on the knowledge and understanding of God's Law.

"We are your bad conscience.  The White Rose will not leave you in peace."

Genesis 4:7
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Proverbs 20:11
Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and right.

Proverbs 21:2-,7-8
2 All a man's ways seem right to him,
      but the LORD weighs the heart.
3 To do what is right and just
      is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
4 Haughty eyes and a proud heart,
      the lamp of the wicked, are sin!
7 The violence of the wicked will drag them away,
      for they refuse to do what is right.
8 The way of the guilty is devious,
      but the conduct of the innocent is upright.

Acts 10:34-36
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Acts 13:9-11
9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."

Romans 2:5-6
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

Romans 12:16-18
16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.
17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Romans 13:1-7
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

2 Corinthians 8:20-22
20We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift. 21For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.

2 Corinthians 13:7
Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong. Not that people will see that we have stood the test but that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed.

Ephesians 6:1
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Philippians 4:8-9
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

2 Thessalonians 3:13
And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right.

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

2 Peter 2:13-15
13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 3:12
Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.

QuoteLove is an action, not a feeling.  And, it is an action based on the knowledge and understanding of God's Law.

When more people recognize this wisdom, the better we will be as a society.

Jeeze, the Pharisees were the most educated on God's law and look how that turned out.

Love doesn't come from man, it comes "through" man "from" God.  Love is a choice.  It's not an emotion.  So many relationships between husbands and wives fall apart because someone convinced them love is an emotion and when they find they don't "feel" love for the other, they assume the relationship is over.

God is not the essence of love, he "is" love.  And as his nature is in us, so is his love.  I'm confused as to how one can illuminate God's love on another and yet the recipient responds with the feeling that it's condescension, piousness, or worse.  Perhaps the view of  love for another isn't as accurate as we would like to think?

I may be convinced I'm doing or speaking out of love, but for me, it's not about what "I" think, the proof is in the puddin'.  True love, for me, is not offensive to any involved.  The recipients may not like what is said or done by a person, but when it's truly done in love, that should still be seen as such . . yes?

Nathan, I am wondering if the statement  "Love is an action based on the understanding of Gods law"  is really a comparison to the pharasees.

The pharasees seemed to see their righteousness was from adherance to the mosaic laws rather than really understanding them.

To me, when I hear Jesus say that I can be a murderer without physically ending someones life then I want to deny just how many people I may have indeed hurt or murdered.

I must seek to not want to hurt someone in my thoughts which is an action based on that understanding.

Just my observation, or maybe if I was to make that statement, thats what I would mean.

For me, Jesus made it clear that there are really only two laws that we really need to concentrait on . . .Love the Father . . .and love your neighbor.  That's what the law of God is to me.

I always wince when "knowledge" get's more attention than relationship.  I think it's why my stuff tends to rub people the wrong way in many of my posts.  I'm always and forever attempting to divert the attention of the subject from what I "know" to what I can "see".  Because relying on what I know is so much more limited than what I can see.  I see much I don't understand . . and that's not a bad thing.  It's the same as the law "you reap what you so".  Seeing is more liberating than knowing. 

Knowing comes, but even then it's limited.  I truly appreciate Proverbs that tells me that I should not rely on my own understanding.  I appreciate even more that it was Peter who God chose to reveal the Messianic nature of Jesus because Peter was just a fisherman . .he was not an educated scholar.  I can very much relate to that as well.

So when a comment is made about my knowledge of God producing love in others comes up, it sounds good, but I know how my mind works and it can't be trusted.  Even in church, in the middle of worship or sermons or what have you . .thoughts come in the mind that have absolutely nothing to do with God or his glory.  My knowledge of God is as vast as my mind allows . . .which is not very much.  So my brand of love may or may not be the same pure love that comes from the Father . . .through the Spirit . .not knowledge . . . that's all I was trying to get at.

QuoteLove doesn't come from man, it comes "through" man "from" God.

  Nate you just say it the right way !! yes God is Love , 

the whole source of Love /action  those deeds/works   is  GOD comin through........1Jo 4:8 He that loves not knows not God; for God is love. 

  One of the most difficult things to describe  in Words is what love is ...
  we know its patient and kind ,  and the unmerited favor  is undeserving 
when you look that up to see it ....
  or how else can you love your enemies or even pray for them without  being  hypocritical ?

God = Love + Humans = Compassion, Grace

Humans + God = Good deeds, Good heart = Love

Ha!

A scholar in fuzzy wuzzy math  :laughing7: