Gospel Of Thomas 44

[DeeDee]

Hi all, I am very interested in Universalism as a Religion and think its absolutely wonderful. I must admit though that "The unpardonable sin" thing still puts a damper on it for me a bit though. I understand how the Matthew, Mark and Luke versions can be explained as not being eternal damnation (sort of) , but then today I came across the Gospel of Thomas (line 44). This version speaks of not forgiven here or in Heaven. Now I am really confused. Please help. Thanks. :sigh:

[pneuma]

Hi all, I am very interested in Universalism as a Religion and think its absolutely wonderful. I must admit though that "The unpardonable sin" thing still puts a damper on it for me a bit though. I understand how the Matthew, Mark and Luke versions can be explained as not being eternal damnation (sort of) , but then today I came across the Gospel of Thomas (line 44). This version speaks of not forgiven here or in Heaven. Now I am really confused. Please help. Thanks. :sigh:

Hi Dee, not sure how much weight I would put on the Gospel of Thomas, mainly because I have never read it. But if we go by the other gospels it is clear that there is no sin that is NEVER forgiven.

This is taken from my rebuttal to Matt Slick

Lets look at those same scriptures from Interlinear Original Language Texts

Amen/verily I am saying to you/to ye that all shall-be-being-from-let/shall be being pardoned to the/the sons of the humans the miss-effects/penalties of sins and the harm-averments/blasphemes as much as/whatever if ever they shall be harm-averring/the shall be blaspheming

Who yet ever should be harm-averring /should be blaspheming into the spirit the holy not is having from-letting/pardon into the eon but liable is of eonian miss-effect/penalty of the sin.

Again we can see no mention of a sin that NEVER can be forgiven. Again we see EON or AGE in place of the word NEVER and we also see that it is an EONIAN/AGE-LASTING sin, not a sin without end.

Thus Matt's case for a eternal sin falls flat, what Mk.3:28-29 is really saying is that if one blasphemes the Holy Spirit one is not forgiven in this age or in the age to come.

Note: before the death of Christ everyone was under the age of the law, after Christ death everyone is under the age of grace. It is these two ages Mark is speaking of, blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven under law, nor is it forgiven under grace, for everyone reaps what they have sown. But during the age of Judgment or as some call it the millennium age those still in sin are pruned without the gate and once the pruning is complete they have right to the tree of life as I already have shown in Rev.22.

But lets just suppose there is a sin that NEVER can be forgiven as Matt says, what would happen?

Jesus Christ is then being eternally tormented for if we do not forgive men their trespasses then neither will the Father forgive us.Mt.6:15

Therefore if Jesus does not forgive us then He is not forgiven Himself and must be then eternally tormented.

But the good news is Jesus forgave even those who crucified Him saying Father forgive them as they no not what they do.Lk.23:34   

[WhiteWings]

DeeDee since this is you 1st post:

Welcome to TentMaker but stay out of my laboratory!!!!




Signed your brother Dexter.
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:pbCPrwum66zLFM:http://www.natch.net/misc/0407/DEXTER.gif)

[DeeDee]

LOL! Thanks guys  :Sparkletooth: The reason the whole blasphemy bit bothers me so much is that since i came across the concept in the three gospels (matt,mark,luke) its been worrying me so much that i might have said something unto the H.S when i was younger. That thought only made it worse as it started to trigger lots and lots of blasphemous thoughts unto the H.S. I was even so stupid as to let it slip to my husband what i was thinking! So i verbalised one of my thoughts!

Pneuma here is what the gospel of Thomas line 44 reads -

Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the Son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either on earth or in heaven."

God bless

Dee

[WhiteWings]

Matthew 12:31-32  Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.  And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

world = aion = age/period of time

[pneuma]

Dee what does the heaven mean in the book of thomas?

According to the interlinier coptic version it is translated SKY not heaven

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/x_transl.htm


But like I said, i don't know how much weight I would give to the gospel of Thomas, if it is a true gospel then its meaning will be the same as the other gospels and as I already pointed out NEVER be forgiven is NOT recorded in scripture.

[DeeDee]

Pneuma, thanks once again. Guess I am just so used to feeling damned (been almost two months now that I can't sleep, can't eat and I worry constantly - lost like 7kg's), that I can't stop obsessing. You are really helping me alot.

See to give you a little background info on me. I always felt really close to God and really really enjoyed my life, then a few weeks ago I was reflecting back on my life and feeling guilty so I repented and started to read the bible intensely (King James Version).
Since It's a very "poetic" version I started to look up scriptures online. Now I had never heard of anything like an unpardonable sin up to that point, so when I came upon it I was horrified! like i said I know I was a very rebelious child and I used to blaspheme members of the trinity when I got upset. I stopped doing that though and it used to make me feel really bad. I never thought anything like that could be considered unpardonable! Then came the blasphemous thoughts (mainly based on the fact that i was obsessing about did i or didnt i commit this sin) and as i said before i even verbalised one by accident to my husband to explain what i was obsessing over.

This is an amazing website and i really look forward to learning more about Christian Universalism - I still have a bit of the "is it to good to be true" syndrome since this is something i always believed in but didnt know existed.

Faith In Christ
Dee

[WhiteWings]

like i said I know I was a very rebelious child and I used to blaspheme members of the trinity when I got upset.

God doesn't care would be a bit to strong answer.
Look the people so loved by God throughout the Bible. They are seen as role models for many Christians.
Yet they don't have exatly a spotless soul. Just to name two keywords: Adultary and murder.
The apostles of Jesus wheren't exactly sinless to put it mildly. And yet Jesus trusted the with such a huge task as spreading the word of God.
Think about that!

It's a bit like Dexter and DeeDee.
Dexter gets mad when DeeDee wrecks his stuff. But still he loves her :HeartThrob:

[pneuma]

I started to look up scriptures online. Now I had never heard of anything like an unpardonable sin up to that point, so when I came upon it I was horrified!

Hi Dee, that in itself should tell you something sis.

If there is an unpardonable sin why did you not see it by yourself, why did it take man to point it out to you?

[DeeDee]

Suppose that makes some sense  :happy3:

Just for interest sake, have you ever worried that you might have committed this sin? Am I bonkers?

[pneuma]

Suppose that makes some sense  :happy3:

Just for interest sake, have you ever worried that you might have committed this sin? Am I bonkers?

Dee I don't have to worry about if I commited this sin or not, I know that I have and I have reaped the sowing (DEATH) because of it.

Remember it not a UNFORGIVABLE SIN Dee, it a SIN that is NOT FORGIVEN until after the JUDGEMENT, or until after the ministration of death (the law) has been applied to the saving of the soul, which is our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

[DeeDee]

Thanks again guys. It helps so much to know that others understand where I am coming from. Good news tho, I have actually gotten some sleep for two nights in a row!

You are all wonderful, wonderful people and I am so blessed to have found you all!

God Bless
Dee

[pneuma]

Thanks again guys. It helps so much to know that others understand where I am coming from. Good news tho, I have actually gotten some sleep for two nights in a row!

You are all wonderful, wonderful people and I am so blessed to have found you all!

God Bless
Dee

:thumbsup:

[martincisneros]

Here's a good Bible study on the supposed "Unpardonable sin."  Perhaps one of the better online studies about it:

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/unpardonable.html

I've been told that J. Preston Eby's writings are really good, but I've found it difficult to get into his writings.  Not sure why.  I have read a couple of his pamphlets though and have enjoyed them enormously.  I've read his Restitution of all things and Reconciliation in the heavenlies.  And I believe that I've read his God will have all men to be saved, if it's the one that ends with the chapter on why to preach the Gospel.

[jabcat]

DeeDee, yes I've worried about that (as well as a million other things).  One thought might be, that if you had committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit;

wouldn't God have already convicted you of it and you would have already experienced that "wedge" in your relationship with Him that occurs when we are in open, sinful rebellion?  Sounds like your relationship was fluid, open, and blessed.  I can't say for sure for each instance, but Satan will sieze even the Word, and use the "letter" to wield as a weapon of condemnation against you, with the hope of ruining your joy and close communion with the Father..

also,  wouldn't you be in such a debased state the YOU WOULDN"T CARE that you had blasphemed?  Sometimes (personal experience) our own carnal mind can latch onto something and then just obsess and ruminate with excessive worry, which  we're told is not of God. 

As part of Martin's tag line says, "Casting all your worries on Him, for He cares for you."

Jesus, visit your dear child and sister right now, give her peace that passes all understanding...and comfort, in Jesus' name..so be it.

God's blessings, James

[Paul Hazelwood]

My question has been, why do UR people still call it the unpardonable sin?

If all sin is eventually forgiven, it is not possible for it to be unpardonable.   Even in the Doctrine of eternal punishment the term is questionable because the bible specifies a time frame and we are only left with the silence of the bible concerning a declaration that it will be forgiven one day.

However, to me it has been a piece of evidence to the UR position of the bible.  I think it is an automatic piece of knowledge that if our correction is temporary and things to our perspective happens in frames of time, then blasphemy will be forgiven but only at a different time frame than other things.

[Nathan]

ARGH!! I had this really great response on this topic . .took forever to write it . .and in the middle somewhere, my log-in time ran out and erased the whole stupid thing! (grrr!)

IN SHORT . . . (as if) . . .
I actually believe every living believer has committed this sin at one time or another.  When I look at the usages of "blasphemy" in Scripture (10 times in the New Testament) I find that it seems to show two different meanings.  In one sense, it leans toward speaking "against" another.  In another sense, it speaks of assuming the authority of another.  Jesus was accused of blaspheme by the Pharisees when he admitted he was the Son of God.  He wasn't speaking against God, he was telling them that he was in essence, God.  And in their eyes, there is only "one" God. . and he wasn't it.  Thus, "blasphemy".

And I believe that in that light, many blaspheme the Holy Spirit every time we sign on the forums, every time we step out the door, every time we assume the activity that was never meant to be ours.  And that is, the ministry of "conviction". 

Have you ever wondered how a goose knows when it's time to fly south?  Have you ever seen anybody standing out at the edges of the rivers and ponds, explaining to the geese preaching to them that winter is coming and they MUST fly south or else they'll freeze to death?  No?  Didn't think so. 

But yet we do this all the time with each other.  From what I understand Phillippians to say about this is, God's spirit is at work "in" me, giving me, changing my will to be in alignment with his will to both "want to" and "do" his good pleasure.  Yes?  Is not his spirit in every one of us giving us both to will and to do his good pleasure?  If this is true, then how is it we still believe we must take it upon ourselves to preach things to each other that the Spirit has already instilled in us?

I do it all the time.  I had a relative that I knew was messing around with her boyfriend and it was killing me to let her continue to think nobody was aware of it.  Even though she denied to anyone who approached her about it that anything was going on, I still thought I should take her aside . .as a Pastor of course and "counsel" her (I convinced myself that's what it was).  And all it did was cause her to pull away even more.

Did I think that she didn't already know it was a wrong thing to do?  Did I think that she didn't already realize that it was a dangerous road to travel?  Didn't matter, I still thought it was my responsibility to straighten her out . . .she needed to know what direction south was and that winter was coming . . .

the truth is, it's not my responsibility to tell you what the Spirit is already fully capable of telling you.  I'm not here to straighten you out, I'm just a farmer . .I plant.  I don't separate.  If I truly think that you are so far off, the most effective way I could ever change your direction would not be to approach you and talk to your mind . .which apparently is in control of your spirit or you wouldn't be making such a dangerous decision like sleeping with your boyfriend.  But if I truly wanted to reach the "inner" you, the way to do that is to go to my knees and get into the same realm that the inner you lives in.  Praying in the spirit can do wonders.

But yet, there are so many threads of so many topics of people preaching to the ponds around them trying to explain what truly is not their job to push, but it's the Holy Spirit's responsibility . . .so when I cross that line, I then blaspheme the Holy Ghost.  I assume to be the convictor. 

I think the blood of the Lamb covers all sins.  But this one carries with it a consequence.  Can't very well be cleansed by the Spirit when I'm the one trying to assume the role that is already the Spirits now can I?  Rather than judging one another of how inadequate they are with their conversations and opinions, wouldn't it be cool to have every post be one of pure friendship and absolutely no demeaning comments or biting remarks all the time . . . if our Father is LOVE . . .and we're the offsprings of that, would that not be so hard to do then?

No longer necessary to be preaching to the pond anymore, let the "in"stinct tell them when it's time to fly . . .yes?

[onlytruth]

hallelujah! amen.

[jabcat]

Wow, Brother Nathan...what a can of worms.  You planning on going fishing?  :mpardon:

Really, I like the tone of what you say, and IMO, I see many truths in it.  However, don't you think there's a place for instruction, teaching, and even confrontation within the body?  And that the Spirit also works through that?  I know what you say about the Spirit's workings are true, I just personally don't believe it's a total "either/or situation".  I DO REALIZE WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THIS. Everyone's own conscience before the Lord, not judging, interacting in love, etc.  However, there seems to be plenty of evidence in scripture where we are to speak up at times.


Just a few examples...
we are to "entreat with sound teaching as well as to expose those who contradict."

Titus 1:9  "holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict."


Titus 2:1-15 (in part) You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men... teach the older women...teach what is good. Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled....so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."

I know, easy does it, and we best be led by the Spirit when we say anything along these lines.  Maybe this isn't exactly what you were addressing...just some thoughts I had.  Maybe you have further thoughts on how these scriptures and ideas conform/comply/ or not with what you're saying.  God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

Suppose someone comes on TM tonight and says "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe the cross or the blood of Jesus was necessary, Paul was totally wrong and made stuff up, and there's 4 Gods in a Godhead that we really need to worship".  As a believer, would you ignore it, "support him", or in love attempt to point out scripture and reason with the person?  In essence, while attempting to help him, yet also for the sake of others exposing him and contradicting his false doctrine?  Or some other option?  (Martin, I have a pretty good idea what you'd do  :laughing7: :gthumbsup:...thank goodness.)

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."  Quote, the Holy Spirit through Paul.   :mshock:.

[jabcat]

Yeah, seems to me 'unpardonable' is based upon the ET paradigm.   And :Oops: I realize my last 2 responses weren't completely related to this thread, was "going with the flow" :punish:.

[DeeDee]

The reason this specific Gospel had me concerned is that there are apologetics websites using this Gospel along with the other three (that mention it) and saying its simple to see that the sin is a one time verbal anything against the H.S. - They add, one strike and you're out.

Okay I pretty much get that that specific sin is the one of calling good works evil when the H.S is involved. What happens then to those people that thought it or said in in this day and age but did'nt really mean it at the time because they did'nt understand the Bible yet or the workings of Jesus?

[jabcat]

Started to post earlier about my recent leaning that most if not all of what Jesus said was specifically directed to the Jews of/at that time ("I come not except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel").  My question was going to be, "can we even commit this sin today" then?  Decided not to post it, didn't want anyone to stumble on it, and still don't...SO DON'T TAKE THIS AS ABSOLUTE, I'M WONDERING.

Then in response to DeeDee's last post, I went to a source I respect a lot, J. Preston Eby...he has a long discertation on this topic here   htp://www.godfire.net/eby/unpardonable.html  but I cut and pasted this very interesting piece from it:

THERE IS NO UNPARDONABLE SIN!  I am glad that Jesus said that all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men. I believe that is true. ALL manner. There is no kind of sin, which because of its kind, or manner, is unpardonable. The enemies of the truth of the ultimate salvation of all men have relied on this dissertation about the unpardonable sin given by our Lord, as their outstanding bulwark of defense against those who affirm that Christ is indeed the Saviour of all men, the Saviour of the world.


"This age" plainly indicates the age of Law. Jesus came under the age of the Law. "But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, MADE UNDER THE LAW, to redeem them that were under the law..." (Gal. 4:4-5). The age that was to come, the age then imminent and impending was this present age of the church. The two ages of unforgiveness are thus clearly defined as the law age and the grace age. These words could not in any manner apply to any except people then living prior to Calvary and the birth of the church age on the day of Pentecost. You will never in a million years understand the deep mystery and meaning of Jesus' teaching on this subject until you grasp the significant fact that He was not talking to New Testament saints - He was not talking to YOU, precious friend of mine - His words were sent directly to those first-century rulers of the kingdom of Judah!   J. Preston Eby

[jabcat]

When Jesus spoke this, he was directly addressing the Pharisees. Are you a Pharisee? What was He addressing? He was addressing their continual refusal by way of hardening their hearts, to accept Him as the Messiah. Have you hardened your heart against Jesus being the Messiah? How did they do this? Because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit." (Mark 3:30). More importantly, they believed this in their callused hearts. This took place while Jesus was in non glorified human form, performing miracles through the Holy Spirit. Is Jesus still in non glorified human form performing miracles here on earth through the Holy Spirit?
Is there any passage outside of the who, what, when, where and how of this particular event that is mentioned anywhere else in the Bible? One would think that if something of this magnitude reached outside of this particular instance, it would have been addressed elsewhere (in the real Bible). 

Brian

Exactly...who was Jesus speaking to in His earthly ministry, and about what?  His being the Messiah, His kingdom that the religious leaders would not inherit, that they were about to lose their inheritance of privilege for a season, because in the end "all Israel will be saved"!!!!  ALL Israel, EVEN THOSE THAT WERE BLASPHEMING???   :boogie:.

"The love of God, how rich and pure
how marvelous and strong
It shall forever more endure
the saints and angels song".

Praise be to God.  God's blessing, James.

[WhiteWings]

Brain,

That would mean we can remove many of the verses found in the Bible. Afteral they where not written for us but for a long died audience.
Somehow, don't ask me how because I can't answer, every letter is a lesson for everyone that will ever exist.

????