Universal Reconcilliation =+= All The Proofs! And All The Questions!

[autoimmune]

Hi, Willie.  You go a bit overboard with your colors, emoticons, and glaring, large-type warnings of my spiritual immaturity and "blatant ignorance" of grace and other spiritual truths, but I'll do a critique of your reply nonetheless.

I appreciate your concern for my orthodoxy, but I don't apologize for it, nor am inclined to take your sage advice and give it up.  That would be a step backward for me.  I've already taken a 25 year journey "outside the box," and God led me back almost full circle to those orthodox doctrines I once discarded, but with a deeper understanding of their underlying truths, why I misunderstood them, and how they all work together in a marvelous and loving plan for all creation to be returned to the Father through Christ.

Truth is truth, Willie, and when I find it I praise God for the grace He gave me to see what I once was blind to.  I've read all that you've said and there isn't one thing in it I haven't examined for myself in the past and then let go of.

For someone to tell me I should discard these precious truths about myself, God and the world, only fills me with a tender compassion for your obvious and enthusiastic belief that only you know the truth from scripture and all the rest of us are blind.

I'd have preferred you accepted the spirit in which I entered this conversation--sharing what we each believe.  I have no problem with someone saying they disagree with me and why.  However, you have not yet learned to allow the other person their belief while standing fast in your own.  There is a big difference between saying, "I disagree with you because ________" and "You are 'blatantly ignorant' because you disagree with me.  The truth is _________."

You ignore what the person has said they mean and, instead rant at them based on your assumption of what they MUST mean in order for you to be right.  That's a very unproductive way to learn anything yourself or teach someone else.

I've read your replies and we'll have to agree to disagree on most of them.  I don't believe in a quietist, predeterminist, I-have-no-responsibility-cause-God-does-it-all kind of faith that thinks Love is a one way flow from God.  To BE Love, it takes two and must be reciprocal. And that requires our free choice, which places a responsibility on us for the Love given so freely.  We cannot truly love others as Christ commanded without understanding that. 

I won't go over the same arguments again.  I've explained what I believe and why.  If you cannot accept that, I have no problem with it. Since I have no desire to disprove your point of view, I see no point in repeatedly saying "That's not what I said, Willie" and then re-explaining what I previously said.  You asked, I told you what I believe.  Not much more I can say.

I choose not to spend time answering the rest of your questions on the list because you don't seem to want to hear what I've said to understand what I believe and why. Any reply would simply be fodder for more "this is why you are wrong, Mary" replies from you.  My sincere thanks for your desire to show me where I am wrong, Willie, but the Holy Spirit is my teacher and I'm not looking for a new one.

May God bless you, Willie, and keep you always.

Mary Ellen

[autoimmune]

Hi Mary E, I don't know what else took place in this thread, just read the last few replies, and for myself I agree with you on the answers you gave to Willies questions.

I don't know why Willie asked those questions but I agree with your answers

God bless

Hello, pneuma.  Thank you for your kind words.  I believe in universal restoration, have for many years, but it took years of scriptural searches and prayers for God to answer the many questions I had about how it related to other things within scripture.  I wanted it to be true because I know God in the way John did, as Perfect Love, and UR made sense.  Yet, I also knew that unless UR could answer the questions I had about the things Jesus said, I couldn't just accept it because it felt right or good.  It had to be THE Good and that meant agreeing with Jesus' teachings and the rest of scriptures as fulfilled in Him.

Thankfully, God showed me that UR does not contradict anything Jesus said, taught or did.

Willie's questions have to do with my belief that God's Justice is not done away with because of His Love.  I believe that God's Justice executed through His Mercy is Love.  He disagrees with me, so I agreed to answer some of his questions.  Have to admit that it was refreshing to be called "orthodox."  Most other places I'm viewed as the radical, heretical Christian:)

I hope to see you throughout other threads and get a chance to share with you more deeply.

Thanks again,
Mary Ellen

[pneuma]

Hi Willie long time no talk to

I don't have to read the whole tread to understand Mary's answers to your questions.
I can see the questions and see Mary's reply, and I agree with her replies.

But that does not mean I don't agree with you also.

Let me explain that if I can.

I think the difference between what you are sharing and what Mary is sharing is the different views of God shown in scripture.

Your view of God is that of the MOST HIGH God or EL Elyon, This is the highest view of God recorded in scripture, it shows forth His eternal (as in without beginning and without end) nature. Everything in this view stems from His infinite being where all things are done by Him and through Him. Everything starts with Him and ends with Him.

You know what I am referring to as I have seen many of your posts speaking of things outside of time, and that is the view of EL Elyon.

But that is not the only view of God recorded in scripture, we also have Elohim, Jehovah, El Shaddai (God Almighty), Adonai (Lord), El Olam (God of the ages) and Jehovah Sabaoth (Lord of Hosts).

So to say someone is in error or wrong or immature because they see God by the view of El Olam (God of the ages) or by one of the other different views expressed in His names is an error in itself.

For if God shows someone a view of Himself as El Olam  how can that view of Him be in error?

When God deals with man in time He expresses Himself by that name, which is El Olam (God of the ages). This view is how God deals with man throughout every age, and He does not change from this view until man is outside of time.

In each view we see a different aspect of who God is, in one we see God in His creative works, in another we see God in covenant to man etc.

In each of these views we see something expressed of El Elyon (Most High God) because El Elyon is the overshadowing principal of all other views of God. For it shows God before the beginning and it shows Him after all time comes to an end. It show Him before creation, before covenant, before the different ages etc. It is the highest view or aspect of God, and it shows forth LIFE which is much more then the LIFE we experience in the created LIFE, in the covenant LIFE, in the LIFE of the ages etc. Each aspect of God shown throughout scripture bring us more fully into the LIFE of the MOST HIGH GOD, EL ELYON.

So what I see the difference between what you have given forth and what Mary has given forth come from two different aspects or views of God.

Neither are wrong or in error or immature.

You see God in the LIFE we will all have, Mary sees God in the LIFE we have right now.
You see God as having finished it all, Mary sees God as we are experiencing Him right now. Which view is that of God working in man and WITH man.

Hope you and Mary can understand what I am saying here, if not do a study on the names of God for every name has its own nature or LIFE aspect.

God bless

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Mary... :hithere:

I'll call this post

THE NAME IT GAME...  :laughing7:

Those points which need BIBLE SUPPORT will be REQUIRED in this GAME, from either YOU or ME... ahead of time, I'll insert MINE... that way, you don't have to hold your breath, as I DO have BIBLE SUPPORT for what I believe...  :nod: let's see if YOU DO...   :reachout:

The following are quotes of your statements which are UNBIBLICAL or erroneous quotation from the BIBLE as it IS WRITTEN... deal with them as you will.  If they have BIBLICAL support, then NAME it (book/chapter/verse-s), if not your SILENCE is answer enough:

(1)

Hello, Willie.  I agree with this: ultimately it is Christ's death which rectifies it all. 

But, as I've asked elsewhere, do you see any difference between punishment and restitution in the name of Justice one makes for harms done others?  Yes, Christ's death is the mercy that will transform that justice into Love, but is the Love available without that restitution being accepted first?

There is no BIBLE verse to my knowledge, that states "ACCEPTING" CHRIST OR "RESTITIUTION" is necessary... NAME IT...

(2)

And how does someone who has not accepted Christ in this life do so in the next--

Already addressed "accepting CHRIST"....

There is no "NEXT LIFE" or "AFTERLIFE", ...NAME IT...

(3)

without doing what those who are called in this age must do, which is to allow GOd's Love to burn away everything in our egos that separates us from Him?

There is no verse that states our EGO's separate us from Him, ...NAME IT...

On the contrary... the WORD says NOTHING can SEPARATE us from the LOVE of GOD (Rom 8:38-39)

(4) 

At death do those who never accepted salvation through Christ simply rise to a Loving life in God without any form of trial or condemnation taking place as Jesus said and as is explicit in many scriptural passages?  Is Justice simply eliminated in favor of Love?

No verse says SALVATION must be ACCEPTED... NAME IT...

(5)

Sounds good . . . until we take into consideration the number of people in this life who seem to prosper from sin, who indisriminately hurt others and get away with it on a major scale.  Your statement would not satisfy any of the billions of people who have suffered injustice at the hand of a despot of some sort who lived life to a ripe old age surrounded by their ill gotten gains.  As I said, it sounds good, but it doesn't answer the practical questions people ask when faced with real life injustice that too often acts with impunity.

This is not a "God gets even thing" Mary...

And furthermore, it is not about SATISFYING billions of people... what they think and do, is inconsequential... What GOD thinks and DOES in HIS PURPOSES is ultimately what must BE...

I'm banking that you will wish that the SIN which you committed in life, is going to be forgiven, no?  With no PUNISHMENT for it, forthcoming?  GOD is no respecter of persons kiddo... Some were beautiful and some were UGLY in this world... are we to expect GOD to make a reversal of this in ETERNITY to "satisfy" billions of people?

(6)

... and the FLESH which each of us SINS in, DIES and returns to the dust...

And when that flesh rises as we've been promised?

Where does it say that FLESH rises Mary?  And where is this PROMISED? (flesh rising) ...NAME IT...

(7)

Where is the sin?  What account can be made for sin people did not submit to Jesus for payment then?  How is all recgtified at that point?

The "SIN" is TAKEN AWAY:  (John 1:29) or do believe what the LAMB TOOK AWAY, is still there?  :mshock:

As far as submission to CHRIST:

At the LAST DAY shall resurrection and Judgment take place (John 6:44 / John 12:48) in the resurrection, shall knees BOW that have not yet BOWED, and shall tongues CONFESS that have not yet CONFESSED... (Phil 2:10-11 / Rom 14:11) 

There Mary, ...I NAMED IT...  :laughing7:

(8)

The assumption that it all just "disappears" regardless of how men accept Jesus' gift in this aeon or not baffles me.

If men simply died and never rose I might be able to accept your argument, but that ignores resurrection and the role of the second death.

YOUR perception of what the 2nd Death IS... is what is instrumental in baffling you Mary...

As JESUS said:  Let him WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone... we are all UNWORTHY to cast a stone at a SINNER, as we are found to hold that undistinguished title, ourselves...  :winkgrin:

(9)

No doubt, and that's why Jesus commanded us not to judge others.  Yet, He did speak frequently of judgment and condemnation.

So frequently that you did not name even one verse in which He did...

(10)

Unless we can rectify those things with UR, keeping the character of God intact without eliminating either His Love or His Justice, we've got just another gnostic concept of how it all works according to our minds, and not the mind of God expressed in scriptures.

More UNBIBLICAL Hoo-ha... GNOSTIC ...schmostic... :pointfinger:

Who are YOU to determine what another sees in Scripture... You fail to name Bible verses continually... likely because there is little to support your beliefs...

I have already noted that GOD's JUSTICE is not MAN'S justice... which is the "JUSTICE" you (naturally) entertain as being, His (spiritually)...

It is why there is an OLD TESTAMENT and a NEW TESTAMENT... the OLD was the picture of the NATURAL, ...the NEW is the TRUTH of the SPIRITUAL... and was WHY CHRIST said to LOVE your ENEMIES... which BY NATURE, we DO NOT DO...  :dontknow:

(11)

The observation of HITLER is an assumption that in some way, you consider your life a more worthy life than was his, based upon YOUR LIFE by comparision is it not?  Not picking on you, just trying to get you to see... we ALL deserve death, for even ONE SIN, sends CHRIST to the cross to redeem us!)

We all make assumptions, willie; you did , too, in assuming that "worthiness" instead of some concept of God's holines and justice leads one to ask the question AoT did.  Yes, Christ's death paid for our littler sins as surely as it paid for the many of Hitler's, yet, you are suggesting that without recourse to Christ Hitler can be automatically forgiven at death.

My favorite!  "LITTLER SINS"!  CHRIST's death paid for our "littler sins", but the biggies are still ripe for the pickin eh?   :laughing7:

LITTLER SINS...  NAME IT...

(12)

I certainly do believe God wills Hitler's salvation and that Christ has purchased that for him.  Yet, Hitler must take the same responsibility for his many "big" sins as I and others have for our many "smaller" ones before that mercy can be applied.

:Yeahright:  CHRIST took away the "Littler sins", but we are ALL are RESPONSIBLE for the BIG'NS?  Unbiblical...

...NAME IT...

Or did you come to Jesus Christ without some sense of metanoia/repentance?

I see nothing in your argument that requires a Hitler or a person at a mall with an AK47 to repent for their lack of love to others.  They simply die and the wage (death) is paid?

That is WHAT the WORD SAYS Mary... (Rom 6:23)  CHRIST tasted DEATH for EVERY MAN... (Heb 2:9)  YET... YET... we all STILL DIE a physical DEATH... so obviously PHYSICAL DEATH is that which is PAID for SIN... by US in the FLESH because we SINNED in it... BY CHRIST FOR US to LIVE... because HE did NOT... 

Once again... I NAMED IT!

(13)

It seems as if you are equating human death with Mercy. A very weak argument I do not accept in the least.

WHO CARES that YOU don't "accept it"?  Not me!  :cloud9:  I am not trying to convince YOU of anything!  You are welcome to believe RHINO's can fly if you like!  :pointlaugh:

There is no "afterlife" Angel... this is an UNBIBLICAL observation...

Upon the conclusion of this life, Our SPIRIT, ...RETURNS to where we emerged -- GOD...

(14)

If you are Christian, then where does resurrection fit into this picture, willie?

RESURRECTION is of the SOUL which DIED... (Ez 18:20)

The SOUL that sinneth [all souls sin], it SHALL DIE...  Man, in the FLESH is a LIVING SOUL... (Gen 2:7)

The SPIRIT which GOD gave in the breath of LIFE, is returned to HIM... the thoughts of MAN perish as this occurs: (Ps 146:4 / Ecc 9:5 / Ecc 12:7)

Once again, ...I NAMED IT... your turn!  :dontknow:

(15)

Since you say the afterlife is an unbiblical observation, I feel you've opened the door to debate based on scripture.   So, please provide the scriptures for what you said next:

In order to RETURN, one must have previously been there... We came FROM GOD... we RETURN to Him... in ETERNITY we ALWAYS are... TIME is a temporal "classroom" in which the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is gained, and in gaining that knowledge we become AS IS our Father and HIS Son... (Gen 3:22)

LIFE in ETERNITY ...always IS... all SONS have ALWAYS BEEN... LIFE beyond TIME is not AFTERLIFE, nor BEFORELIFE... it is ETERNAL LIFE which has no beginning or end.

Job 38:7  ...when the morning stars sand together and ALL the SONS of GOD shouted for joy... (all the SONS means ALL the SONS... the word BEN is in this text, and is the UNIVERSAL Hebrew word used for SONS [offspring] throughout the OT Scriptures...)

(Luke 15:12) A certain man had TWO SONS... the younger of them said to his father, Father give me the portion of goods that falleth to me and He divided unto them, his living.  In order for the SON to LEAVE and go to a FAR COUNTRY, he was ORIGINALLY there...  :dontknow:

Thereyago... I NAMED IT!

(16)

That last was straight out of Genesis and is the precise definition of original sin:  thinking we can discern good and evil through knowledge to become as gods . . .

Definitely gnostic, willie :) . . . and certainly a reversal of scripture, to say the least.

ORIGINAL SIN... NAME IT... 

So how many do you percieve are LOST, Angel?   Did CHRIST accomplish His mission?  At it's end, did He not say "IT IS FINISHED"? 

If there is still more to do (such as you suggest above in blue), why did He say it was finished?

(17)

In the same way you indicated above--not in temporal time, but in the Eternal Now of God.  It is the same "It is finished" as we hear in the Book of Revelation, willie, which has not yet occured in our time frame.  Both events are one, but separated through linear time.  When one was accomplished in the Eternal Now, the other was as well. But in linear time, only one has occured, the other is yet to come for us.  Just as some are now found and some yet to be found in linear time who are still lost..

Don't mistake the entire process in the eternal now for the separate events as we perceive them in linear time.  So, yes, in linear time, the only time man perceives and that GOd works with in His Love and Mercy, "there is still more to do."  Meaning people remain responsible for what they do within this time frame, even though in the eternal now they have been forgiven and restored to the Father.

Mary Ellen

Sorry Mary... but there is NOT still MORE TO DO... IT ...IS... FINISHED... which means WHAT it SAYS... That manifestations of that FINISHED work are yet to be observed in time by TIME dwellers such as ourselves, ...does not PREVENT the COMPLETION, nor does it indicate there is MORE to DO...  :dontknow:

TIME must follow its order... but IN TIME, ...SALVATION and its COMPLETION as a work is DONE... 2000yrs ago DONE...

Believe what you will... I believe CHRIST when He said IT IS FINISHED, and take Him at His WORD...

I do not try to use my limited vision of that work and note it as incomplete because I am FINITE, and cannot see that COMPLETION...

You are welcome to view it as you will...  :happygrin:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[pneuma]

Hello, pneuma.  Thank you for your kind words.

Your most welcome sis, glad to make your Acquaintance.

Scott

[autoimmune]

Hi, Willie.  I choose not to play the game.  Thank you for the invitation, though. 

Mary Ellen

[autoimmune]

Hello, Scott.  Nicely worded post and you may be correct in your estimation of the two different perspectives taken.   It isn't that I don't comprehend the concept of the Eternal Now in which all processes are complete, or that I cannot see how the paradox of the eternal now and temporal events work together. It's that the original poster was a young man asking questions about how UR relates to specific scripturally orthodox questions, so I framed my answers in those terms.

I do appreciate your post and the intention behind it; not to mention it is something to think on (which I will).  Thank you.

Mary Ellen.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Mary... :hithere:

Hi, Willie.  I choose not to play the game.  Thank you for the invitation, though. 

Mary Ellen

You choose not to...

Simply because you CANNOT NAME Scripture to support your beliefs...  :shakepoint:

Whateversville...    :dontknow:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Mary...  :cloud9:

Still can't find the quotes eh?  :laughing7:

Or ..."LITTLER SINS" ...in the Bible...  :Chinscratch:

Hi, Willie.  You go a bit overboard with your colors, emoticons, and glaring, large-type warnings of my spiritual immaturity and "blatant ignorance" of grace and other spiritual truths, but I'll do a critique of your reply nonetheless.

Critique?  Please...  :laugh:

Not only do you bear false witness concerning me and quotations, but now you resort to EXAGGERATION... I stated "blatant ignorance" of GRACE in light of your insistence to be part of SALVATION, and part of RESPONSIBILITY, and therefore part of RESTITUTIONS... etc... 

Though I DID state it, ...I DID NOT put the words "blatant ignorance" in LARGE type... and you know this is a further FALSE WITNESS... which GOD is noting and observing and which you shall REGRET... whether you admit to it or not...  :sigh:

That is your opinion, and as always, you are welcome to it... all it really amounts to is your opinion, which is mostly what your posts are... :rolleye:

You don't like my style Mary?  :shakepoint:  ...too bad!  :sigh:

:Yeahright:  I'll try and pick up the pieces, ...go cry on my wife's shoulder for a couple of hours,  and then hopefully, move on... hoping not to toss & turn all night over it...  :laughing7:

Next:

I appreciate your concern for my orthodoxy, but I don't apologize for it, nor am inclined to take your sage advice and give it up.

Who said I was CONCERNED about your ORTHODOXY Mary?  And... when did I ASK YOU to "give it up"?  Please...

Not only do you not support your beliefs with Scripture, ...but you have on several occasions PUT WORDS in MY MOUTH which I did not SAY... BEARING FALSE WITNESS...  :pitiful:

Please, if you will ...quote me:

(1) where I stated concern for your ORTHODOXY????  and...

(2) where I asked you to give it up????  If you cannot, then these assertions are LIES aren't they?  Or at the very least, GROSS MISREPRESENTATIONS of me...  :dontknow:

That would be a step backward for me.  I've already taken a 25 year journey "outside the box," and God led me back almost full circle to those orthodox doctrines I once discarded, but with a deeper understanding of their underlying truths, why I misunderstood them, and how they all work together in a marvelous and loving plan for all creation to be returned to the Father through Christ.

More yadda-yadda... I glad you found your way back into wherever you are... Personally I have moved forward continuously since my journey began... learning and standing upon that which GOD has taught me, ...sorry to hear about your wild goose chase...  :crywipe:

Truth is truth, Willie, and when I find it I praise God for the grace He gave me to see what I once was blind to.  I've read all that you've said and there isn't one thing in it I haven't examined for myself in the past and then let go of.

Show me oh enlightened one... where I am in error... and, by the way... try using the Bible as you do INSTEAD of your OPINION...

I will really appreciate your attempt, but don't really expect it... why should you do something for me?  If I am in the prison of misunderstanding that YOU think I am, and YOU are the one which has found the LIGHT... let's discuss it... If I'm wrong and the BIBLE shows me this... I will be more than happy to conform...

For someone to tell me I should discard these precious truths about myself, God and the world, only fills me with a tender compassion for your obvious and enthusiastic belief that only you know the truth from scripture and all the rest of us are blind.

In my discussion with you I have admitted that I do not know everything... Also, in my discussion with YOU I have NOT asked you to DISCARD anything...

If I have asked you to DISCARD your ORTHODOXY, you will have no trouble quoting this statement, right?  ... :rolleye:  FALSE WITNESS!  :pitiful:

I'd have preferred you accepted the spirit in which I entered this conversation--sharing what we each believe.  I have no problem with someone saying they disagree with me and why.  However, you have not yet learned to allow the other person their belief while standing fast in your own.

Once again, all you do is yammer on with your UNSCRIPTURAL opinions... I do not stand idle in the face of FALSE teaching...  Just so you can "share it" with others...

You are welcome to ignore my challenges, but to date, you have NOT responded with SCRIPTURE, verifying yourself and your beliefs... and you HAVE in this process, stated that I have said things which I HAVE NOT SAID... misrepresenting ME in your lack...

There is a big difference between saying, "I disagree with you because ________" and "You are 'blatantly ignorant' because you disagree with me.  The truth is _________."

You ignore what the person has said they mean and, instead rant at them based on your assumption of what they MUST mean in order for you to be right.  That's a very unproductive way to learn anything yourself or teach someone else.

Mary... just use the BIBLE when you state a belief... it will disband with all this unnecessary clatter...

I've read your replies and we'll have to agree to disagree on most of them.  I don't believe in a quietist, predeterminist, I-have-no-responsibility-cause-God-does-it-all kind of faith that thinks Love is a one way flow from God.  To BE Love, it takes two and must be reciprocal. And that requires our free choice, which places a responsibility on us for the Love given so freely.  We cannot truly love others as Christ commanded without understanding that.

More opinion without SCRIPTURE... My Bible says (Eph 1:11) that YHVH God is WORKING ALL [not some] THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL...  which means your "free choice" is an illusion, as well as your "reciprocal" requirement which is NATURAL in perspective... for when GOD REVEALS Himself, no one can resist HIS love... It is not necessary for it to be generated from WICKED MEN... it is to be generated from CHRIST within, and REVEALED without...

You wish to make me out as a Hard-A__ which has no FAITH according to you, and has no RESPONSIBILITY according to you, and because I lay ALL GLORY at the feet of GOD, you put me down for that to in your "GOD DOES IT ALL" address of me...

You SHALL find yourself changed in these things, that is a prophecy for you...

GOD IS ALL in ALL... and does not require YOUR selfish little PART to be that... Nor your "reciprocation", nor your "free choice", nor your "responsibility"...

Your insistence on RESPONSIBILITY is unfounded and NOT in the Scriptures, for GOD is He who JUSTIFIES, ....not on the basis of what YOU do or dont do... but based upon WHAT HE DOES...

(1 Cor 1:29) No FLESH shall GLORY before HIM, by placing their "reciprocal", "free choice", "responsibility" package as evidence of their "part" in His PURPOSE... as was first attempted by CAIN...

I won't go over the same arguments again.  I've explained what I believe and why.

Yes you have, ...but you have done so, without SCRIPTURE, so they remain as just beliefs that reside on the sand of self...

If you cannot accept that, I have no problem with it.

I could care less if you believe in santa claus or the tooth fairy, Mary Ellen... My concern is for those you might INFLUENCE with your UNBIBLICAL statements...

You are welcome to believe France is in Colorado, fine with me...  :laughing7:

However if you SAY to others that France is in Colorado, I will take exception to it...  :dontknow:

Since I have no desire to disprove your point of view

Your way of saying... you Can't DISPROVE my point of view...

I choose not to spend time answering the rest of your questions on the list because you don't seem to want to hear what I've said to understand what I believe and why.

First... Establish your beliefs in the Bible Mary E... if you cannot, then they are NOT Biblically based... simple as that...

Second... You have noted that I have stated things which I did NOT state... and have FAILED to show where I said them as well...

Third... I don't listen to EXTRA BIBLICAL beliefs... there are enough of them in the various RELIGIONS of the World, ...I find it sad that most in Christianity are like yourself... Believing and stating things which are NOT even IN the WORD... such as LITTLER SINS, and that we are RESPONSIBLE for the BIGGER SINS, ...and then FALSIFYING me in the process of your folly... by saying things I did NOT SAY...

All I get from you is a continuing whining  :gmad: reprimand from you that I should NOT object to your RELIGION... whilst you fail to note the WORDS of GOD upon which it is based?  :faint:

Any reply would simply be fodder for more "this is why you are wrong, Mary" replies from you.

More of things I have NEVER SAID... I have NOT SAID you are WRONG about anything... I have BIBLICALLY objected to your UNBIBLICAL statements...

As I said... QUOTE please where I said YOU were WRONG... it aint there and you know it!  FALSE WITNESS!  :pitiful:

You self decieve about Scripture, and then wish to blame me... saying that I said you are WRONG, when I have said NO SUCH THING...

My sincere thanks for your desire to show me where I am wrong, Willie, but the Holy Spirit is my teacher and I'm not looking for a new one.

I have NEVER tried to show you where you were WRONG Mary... I have posed BIBLICAL OPPOSITION to your unfounded B.S...

If the HOLY SPIRIT were your teacher Mary... you would ENLIST His WORD in your statements... which you DO NOT...

In all our conversation, I do not recall you using ONE VERSE from SCRIPTURE (The WORDS of the Holy Spirit YHVH) on which you base your beliefs Mary...  :dontknow:

Not ONE!  :sigh:

May God bless you, Willie, and keep you always.

Mary Ellen

Same to you Mary... I pray you shall soon scrutinize the lack of GOD's WORD in the presentation of your beliefs...

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[Taffy]

Hi Willie. :icon_flower:

Its more than evident that ME no longer wishes to continue in sharing with you bro , Please can we just leave it there ? and move on. :icon_flower:

Many Thanks :icon_flower:
Taffy

[Taffy]

Your view of God is that of the MOST HIGH God or EL Elyon, This is the highest view of God recorded in scripture, it shows forth His eternal (as in without beginning and without end) nature. Everything in this view stems from His infinite being where all things are done by Him and through Him. Everything starts with Him and ends with Him.

You see God in the LIFE we will all have, Mary sees God in the LIFE we have right now.
You see God as having finished it all, Mary sees God as we are experiencing Him right now. Which view is that of God working in man and WITH man.

Hi Scott.. :icon_flower:

Good to see back around these parts bro :icon_flower:

Thanks for sharing on the thread it was enjoyable....I must admit ,I too see similar to willie in ones understanding of THE MOST HIGH GOD .

Blessings Bro :icon_flower:
Taffy

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

How are you brother!  Hope you are doing well...  :HeartThrob:

I do appreciate your peacemaking efforts brother... and note that each person is on his/her particular pathway, of which GOD is completely cognizant and in control...

Instead of a long winded reply... I DID NOT say that Mary was WRONG about anything... She drummed it up... because I opposed her in this discussion...

I specifically did NOT say she was WRONG... I do not do this... I DID state that ALL MEN are either VEILED or REVEALED in any given area... which means that NOBODY "knows-it-all"...  :laughing7:

As far as a notation of her as IMMATURE... I don't recall stating this, ...and skimmed over my posts and did not find it...

If she or you could point out the specific place where I used this term... I would be happy to reword it... if in fact it was said...

The biggest objection I have with Mary Ellen's views are that she does NOT FOUND them in the WORD...

I don't mind opposition, and I know that ALL of us have many things to learn and are each in need correction as we search... but it must be done from the BIBLE, not from opinion, which is where Mary basically lives...  :dontknow:

No matter what view we have of YHVH, we must base that view from His WORDS... otherwise, it shall soon morph into complete fallacy...

There were SEVERAL occasions where Mary bore FALSE WITNESS of me... Stating I had said this or that, (one of which is the "wrong" thing), ...which I did NOT say... and she FAILED to quote me,  simply because this was not stated BY ME...

You know what I am referring to as I have seen many of your posts speaking of things outside of time, and that is the view of EL Elyon.

But that is not the only view of God recorded in scripture, we also have Elohim, Jehovah, El Shaddai (God Almighty), Adonai (Lord), El Olam (God of the ages) and Jehovah Sabaoth (Lord of Hosts).

So to say someone is in error or wrong or immature because they see God by the view of El Olam (God of the ages) or by one of the other different views expressed in His names is an error in itself.

I agree, no one is WRONG or RIGHT... we are ALL, either VEILED or REVEALED in any given observation of GOD or HIS WORD...  :dontknow:

Which is why I have no desire to try to convince anyone of anything... but I do and will pose opposition to UNBIBLICAL presentations, which is IN FACT, what I did with Mary Ellen...

I absolutely, ...did NOT say she was WRONG about ANYTHING!  ...and could not find where she alledges that I said she was immature (though I may have to stand corrected on that one.)

Again, thanks for a "peaceful" intervention bro...  :friendstu:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[pneuma]

Your view of God is that of the MOST HIGH God or EL Elyon, This is the highest view of God recorded in scripture, it shows forth His eternal (as in without beginning and without end) nature. Everything in this view stems from His infinite being where all things are done by Him and through Him. Everything starts with Him and ends with Him.

You see God in the LIFE we will all have, Mary sees God in the LIFE we have right now.
You see God as having finished it all, Mary sees God as we are experiencing Him right now. Which view is that of God working in man and WITH man.

Hi Scott.. :icon_flower:

Good to see back around these parts bro :icon_flower:

Thanks for sharing on the thread it was enjoyable....I must admit ,I too see similar to willie in ones understanding of THE MOST HIGH GOD .

Blessings Bro :icon_flower:
Taffy

Hi Taffy, I to see the Most High God in much the same manner as Willie expressess Him, there are differances of course but on the whole I can agree with him.

But I don't just see God by this perspective, I see Him also in how He is working in man and WITH man.

One is a vision of what we will optain in Christ, the others are how God is working NOW throughout the ages.

It like this to me, we all know that death has been defeated, but we do not yet see death under His feet but we see Jesus.
The view of the Most High God shows forth death defeat, the God of the ages show forth how God is working out that defeat in our lives.

I wish I had the words to express this better bro, but just think of what is transpiring in our lives, we still sin and must repent of our sins, why if everything has been already done by the Most High God? is it not because we are yet experiancing or growing into the fullness of His life? Even a child knows thier parents, but thier knowledge of all that thier parent is, a child cannot comprehend, this knowledge only comes by way of experiance or growth. Thus the Most High God shows Himself to us through the other names He has revealed Himself to us by.

Simply put bro we must first experiance God by each of His manifestations before we experiance the fullness of who He is.

No one except Christ has experiance God in His fullness YET, but we see His fullness by revelation.

If one thinks they have experianced His fullness (Most High God) and beleive all things have already been done, they run the risk of falling behind in the race that is set before us, for if they stop running thinking the race is finished they won't continue to press toward the mark of the HIGH calling in Christ.

To the Most High all things are complete, but to us experiance tells us it is not, and the reason is because God is still dealing with man in time.

That's the best I can explain it bro, hope it is of some help.

[pneuma]

Hello, Scott.  Nicely worded post and you may be correct in your estimation of the two different perspectives taken.   It isn't that I don't comprehend the concept of the Eternal Now in which all processes are complete, or that I cannot see how the paradox of the eternal now and temporal events work together. It's that the original poster was a young man asking questions about how UR relates to specific scripturally orthodox questions, so I framed my answers in those terms.

I do appreciate your post and the intention behind it; not to mention it is something to think on (which I will).  Thank you.

Mary Ellen.

Hi again Mary, I did not mean for my post to say you did not see or comprehend the Most High God, every aspect of God brings us further and further into compreheding the Most High God. God uses His other names for the exact purpose of revealing this to us.

I to see the Most High God, but experiance tells me I have YET to experiance Him, as long a sin is in my life I have yet to experiance His fullness because if I had His fullness I could not sin, it would simply be impossible.

The Most High God is only seen by revelation as of YET, no one but Christ has experianced His fullness, but we press towards the HIGH calling in Christ.

For myself I want that fullness of God, to experiance ALL of who He is.

[Molly]

for when GOD REVEALS Himself, no one can resist HIS love... It is not necessary for it to be generated from WICKED MEN...

11The LORD said to Moses, " I have done great things for these people, and they still reject me by refusing to believe in my power. 12So they will no longer be my people. I will destroy them, but I will make you the ancestor of a nation even stronger than theirs."




26The LORD told Moses and Aaron 27-28to give this message to the people of Israel:

   You sinful people have complained against me too many times! Now I swear by my own life that I will give you exactly what you wanted.  29You will die right here in the desert, and your dead bodies will cover the ground. You have insulted me, and none of you men who are over twenty years old 30will enter the land that I solemnly promised to give you as your own--only Caleb and Joshua  will go in. 31You were worried that your own children would be captured. But I, the LORD, will let them enter the land you have rejected. 32You will die here in the desert! 33Your children will wander around in this desert forty years, suffering because of your sins, until all of you are dead. 34I will cruelly punish you every day for the next forty years--one year for each day that the land was explored. 35You sinful people who ganged up against me will die here in the desert.

[Molly]

There is no BIBLE verse to my knowledge, that states "ACCEPTING"CHRIST OR "RESTITIUTION" is necessary... NAME IT...




11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. --John 1





Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

[Molly]

My favorite!  "LITTLER SINS"!  CHRIST's death paid for our "littler sins", but the biggies are still ripe for the pickin eh?   

LITTLER SINS...  NAME IT...

31But you prove that you really are the relatives of the ones who killed the prophets. 32So keep on doing everything they did. 33You are nothing but snakes and the children of snakes! How can you escape going to hell?

    34I will send prophets and wise people and experts in the Law of Moses to you. But you will kill them or nail them to a cross or beat them in your meeting places or chase them from town to town. 35That's why you will be held guilty for the murder of every good person, beginning with the good man Abel. This also includes Barachiah's son Zechariah,  the man you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I can promise that you people living today will be punished for all these things!



35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. --Matthew 23

[pneuma]

Instead of a long winded reply... I DID NOT say that Mary was WRONG about anything... She drummed it up... because I opposed her in this discussion...

As far as a notation of her as IMMATURE... I don't recall stating this, ...and skimmed over my posts and did not find it...

There were SEVERAL occasions where Mary bore FALSE WITNESS of me... Stating I had said this or that, (one of which is the "wrong" thing), ...which I did NOT say... and she FAILED to quote me, simply because this was not stated BY ME...

Hi Willie, brother I do not say this to hurt or shame you but so you can maybe see where Mary is comming from.

one does not have to say the exact word to express one believes the other to be in error or immature.

Let me give you an example, you said

We are the ETERNAL Sons of GOD... we have ALWAYS BEEN... you just see yourself as FINITE, because your view is from the NATURAL... and is of OTHRODOX roots...

And

Nothing wrong with sticking to the love of JESUS Mary Ellen... but rash statements such as you have made in this thread, shall be noted as ORTHODOX and unfounded concerning Scriptural basis...

Now if you said that my views were NATURAL and ORTHODOX, to me you are expressing that I would be IMMATURE and in ERROR. For the NATURAL mind cannot comprehend the things of God and I know you believe the ORTHODOX to be in ERROR/WRONG.

ORTHODOX teaches eternal torment correct? And you do believe eternal torment to be wrong do you not?

So Mary was not baring false witness of you bro, she may have misunderstood your meaning just as I would have and so to I believe would others.


Now you may not have meant it that way bro but that how it comes across.

The biggest objection I have with Mary Ellen's views are that she does NOT FOUND them in the WORD...
I don't mind opposition, and I know that ALL of us have many things to learn and are each in need correction as we search... but it must be done from the BIBLE, not from opinion, which is where Mary basically lives...
No matter what view we have of YHVH, we must base that view from His WORDS... otherwise, it shall soon morph into complete fallacy...

Willie Mary's view is based on scripture bro, not everyone speaks after the same fashion as you know. Some of us speak using a lot of scriptures and some of us just like to talk about their hope in Him instead of getting into scripture after scripture.

Myself I enjoy reading both ways and when one just speaks of their hope in Christ I can read between the lines so to speak and see the scripture references.

Without going into all of yours and Mary's posts I am only going to give you a couple of example.

Example: Mary said something about littler sins and you said there is no scripture that says anything about littler sins. And although the scripture do not use the term littler sins, I understand scripture to express just that. Two sets of scriptures that come to my mind upon reading Mary's littler sins are where it says 6 things God hate, yea even 7 and then proceeds to name these 7 sins God hates, are there more sins then 7? Surely, but it does not say God hates them. This to me would indicate that above all other sins God places these in a higher order if you will. The other scripture that comes to mind is the blaspheme of the Holy Ghost which implies it is a blaspheme greater then other blasphemes.

The next example is Mary said something about us needing to accept Christ and you said no scripture state such. But they do imply it bro. the scripture that comes to my mind is every knee bowing and tongue CONFESSING that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Confess-

1)   to confess
2)   to profess
2a)   acknowledge openly and joyfully
2b)   to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
2c)   to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage


Accept-

come to terms with something: to acknowledge a fact or truth and come to terms with it
believe something: to acknowledge that something is true

Plus we do have a few scriptures that attest to accepting Him

Acts 2:39-41
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received/ACCEPTED his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Not everything is as it seems bro, and sometimes we have to look behind the words when one just speaks to see the scriptures being used.

God bless

[Molly]

ORIGINAL SIN... NAME IT... 

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die,...

[autoimmune]

Good afternoon, Willie.  I don't bait easily. :)

I'm sincerely sorry that disturbs you, but we each learn in our own ways.  I've learned not to accept invitations to scriptural battles because the intention always stems from ego, and the result is rarely edification of the Body.  I refused for my good as well as yours. 

FTR:  without the Holy Spirit, I am a sarcastic, cynical, loud mouth New York Sicilian who cannot refuse a dare when it comes to my intellect.  Believe me, my natural skill in the arena of forum sarcasm far surpasses what you exhibited in your last reply--and I can do it with a finesse you would envy if you could.  I also have the tenacious, Sicilian vindictiveness that would enable me to outlast you at your game, and then savor my vengeance as a dish served cold.  LOL! We could make quite a spectacle for onlookers if I agreed to your game :)

By God's grace, though, I no longer enjoy such things.  He humbled me, showed me that such antics were not of Him (no matter how much I might protest I am doing it for His glory), and that I shouldn't take part in them anymore.  You remind me so much of myself, Willie, that I can't help but love you. I pray for all God's best blessings to be bestowed on you.

Mary Ellen

[autoimmune]

Hello, Molly.  Thank you for taking the time to provide the scriptures Willie was curious about.  It's not that I can't provide the scriptural background material underlying what I believe, it just that I won't when it becomes a requirement to "prove" that what I believe is the "correct" interpretation of scripture.  A fine point, I know, but one God holds me to.

If Willie truly wanted to know those scriptures because he had listened to my point of view and wanted to investigate the idea further, or because he simply wanted to be sure that what he believes isn't contradicted someplace in scripture, I'd have provided them.  I won't do it when it is placed in the context of a contest or game.

A long while back I engaged in such a scriptural battle with a co-worker to prove that Christian women are not subservient to men.  I knew what the man believed, which scriptures he would use to prove his point--and which I could use to baffle him.  I deliberately used my intellect to step-by-step crack the foundation of his beliefs, leading him exactly where I knew he would go passage by passage so I could strike the final scriptural blow. 

I left him feeling smugly confident that I had helped another Christian rid himself of an erroneous belief.   

I found out the next morning that after I left him he "lost it" and ended up being taken to a mental ward in a straitjacket, screaming about women and scripture . . .

I had misused a wonderful gift from God terribly, was guilty of intellectual pride, self-righteousness and, worse of all, a egregious lack of love.

God used that to teach me many things; but the most important lesson for me was that it is better to be thought "wrong" and remain loving, than be "right" in our own eyes, but lacking in His Love for others.

Love trumps scriptural knowledge every time in my book :)

Once again, thank you for taking the time to do what I could not.

Mary Ellen
 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Wish to dance  :bgdance: ...with me again doya?  :dontknow:

for when GOD REVEALS Himself, no one can resist HIS love... It is not necessary for it to be generated from WICKED MEN...

11The LORD said to Moses, " I have done great things for these people, and they still reject me by refusing to believe in my power. 12So they will no longer be my people. I will destroy them, but I will make you the ancestor of a nation even stronger than theirs."




26The LORD told Moses and Aaron 27-28to give this message to the people of Israel:

   You sinful people have complained against me too many times! Now I swear by my own life that I will give you exactly what you wanted.  29You will die right here in the desert, and your dead bodies will cover the ground. You have insulted me, and none of you men who are over twenty years old 30will enter the land that I solemnly promised to give you as your own--only Caleb and Joshua  will go in. 31You were worried that your own children would be captured. But I, the LORD, will let them enter the land you have rejected. 32You will die here in the desert! 33Your children will wander around in this desert forty years, suffering because of your sins, until all of you are dead. 34I will cruelly punish you every day for the next forty years--one year for each day that the land was explored. 35You sinful people who ganged up against me will die here in the desert.

(Rom 9:16)  So then it is NOT of him that WILLETH, NOT of him that RUNNETH, but OF GOD that sheweth mercy...  :dontknow:

(Rom 9:18)  THEREFORE, hath HE mercy on whom HE WILL, and whom HE WILL, ...HE HARDENETH...  :dontknow:

(Rom 9:19  Thou wilt SAY then unto me, WHY doth HE yet ...FIND FAULT?  For ...WHO hath RESISTED HIS WILL?   :dontknow:

(Rom 9:20)  Nay but O ...MAN... who art THOU that repliest [talks back] against GOD?  Shall the thing FORMED say to Him that FORMED it,  WHY hast THOU ...MADE ME... thus?  :dontknow:

(Rom 9:21)  Hath not the POTTER, power OVER the CLAY, of the same lump to MAKE one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?  :dontknow:

Something that is MADE is not in the actual decision making process...  :dontknow:

If you don't GET IT... you don't GET IT...  :dontknow:  ...And dear sister Molly, ...you have already sufficiently shown beforehand and, NOW... BY this post, that YOU don't GET IT...  :dontknow:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[willieH]

Good afternoon, Willie.  I don't bait easily. :)

I'm sincerely sorry that disturbs you, but we each learn in our own ways.  I've learned not to accept invitations to scriptural battles because the intention always stems from ego, and the result is rarely edification of the Body.  I refused for my good as well as yours. 

FTR:  without the Holy Spirit, I am a sarcastic, cynical, loud mouth New York Sicilian who cannot refuse a dare when it comes to my intellect.  Believe me, my natural skill in the arena of forum sarcasm far surpasses what you exhibited in your last reply--and I can do it with a finesse you would envy if you could.  I also have the tenacious, Sicilian vindictiveness that would enable me to outlast you at your game, and then savor my vengeance as a dish served cold.  LOL! We could make quite a spectacle for onlookers if I agreed to your game :)

By God's grace, though, I no longer enjoy such things.  He humbled me, showed me that such antics were not of Him (no matter how much I might protest I am doing it for His glory), and that I shouldn't take part in them anymore.  You remind me so much of myself, Willie, that I can't help but love you. I pray for all God's best blessings to be bestowed on you.

Mary Ellen

:Yeahright:   :laughing7: ...My inclination is to tell you to "bring it on", if you are able,  ...I'm Italian myself...  :laughing7:

You have no idea of what I am capable... but before this escalates any further...

I will be consulting with TAFFY and in prayer before any further conversation with you...

No apology for your FALSE WITNESS of me?  ...  :sigh:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[Paul Hazelwood]

If you don't GET IT... you don't GET IT...  :dontknow:  ...And dear sister Molly, ...you have already sufficiently shown beforehand and, NOW... BY this post, that YOU don't GET IT...  :dontknow:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

The greater misunderstanding is probably she doesn't get you Willie and that is of no consequence.


For someone to say that no one can resist Gods love when God reveals himself is not a solid stand to take when there are scriptures that appear to show that God did reveal himself and they still rejected.

For if God intended for them to resist, even though he revealed himself to them, they indeed still resisted at the advent of him being revealed by all the things he did.

Possibly the message in that passage is that God is in control and no matter the reason for someones resistance, even if by Gods own hand, he will forgive them. 

In any event, was Gods Love revealed to them in this passage or not?   And did they resist or not?


11The LORD said to Moses, " I have done great things for these people, and they still reject me by refusing to believe in my power. 12So they will no longer be my people. I will destroy them, but I will make you the ancestor of a nation even stronger than theirs."

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am a race car driver on occasion, if a friend is in town and in the racing scene there is what is called bench racing where guys can boast about how fast what they want to build would be and how it could beat someone elses.

But this is gotta be the first thread where I have witnessed Bench Posting,  and maybe thats not the right word for it.

Believe me, my natural skill in the arena of forum sarcasm far surpasses what you exhibited in your last reply--and I can do it with a finesse you would envy if you could.

You have no idea of what I am capable

Mary Ellen and Willie   start your engines.....  VAROOOOOOOOOMMMMM