another question on forever and ever stuff, eternal fire etc

[anti_nietzsche]

I was talking about UR with an ET believer and told him the argument that eternal, in greek scripture, doesn't necessarily mean eternal duration but might in fact mean "until something is accomplished", or "enduring until consumed" etc. He said that the same word used here is also used when denoting that the believer will inherit eternal life. Why then do we make a distinction between eternal fire, eternal punishment, etc, and eternal life? How could we prove that one means a duration of limited time, and another means eternality proper?

[firstborn888]

One way is to show systematically that 'olam' and 'aionios' as well as many many other terms that seem to show permanence are used over and over to describe temporary events. After that they'll just have to figure it out.

Have you seen this? The 'Forever Until' principle:

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no
more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will
"restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without
blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a
"perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies
for our sins. We now have a better covenant
established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb.
8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.

God is now calling out "a people for His name"--an
"elect" or chosen priesthood people who will represent
and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few
are chosen--until--the small chosen priesthood people,
by the Spirit, restore "David's tabernacle" so ALL
mankind may inquire of the Lord. Thus we see that the
church is the first-born, the beginning--until--in ALL
(later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will
have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts
15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1 18).

All manner of sin will be forgiven in this AGE as well
as in the AGE (not eternity) to come, except blasphemy
against God's Spirit-until--such blasphemy finds
pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages) when God
unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His
anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt.
12:32; 18:11,21-22, Eph. 1:9-11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic.
7:18-20).

God's wrath has come upon Israel "to the uttermost" (1
Thess. 2:16).  Then scripture promises that ALL Israel
will be saved (Jer. 50:5, Luke 16:19-26, John 12:32,
Romans 11:26-29).

So, Christ will say to unrighteous NATIONS, "Depart
from Me into 'everlasting' fire." And these nations
will go away into "everlasting" (original language:
age-lasting) punishment or pruning, that is--until--by
God's severe mercy shown in judgment, ALL nations He
has made glorify and worship Him. Thus God will
fulfill His covenant with Abraham that in Christ all
the families of ALL the nations will be BLESSED (Gen.
12:3, Ps. 62:12, 67:4, 86:9, Matt. 25:41,46). For
according to Paul (Gal. 3:8), God's covenant with
Abraham means that ALL will be justified and set right
with God. So all flesh will bless His name forever and
ever (Ps. 145:21).

Therefore, ALL scriptural references that speak of
everlasting fire or judgment MUST be understood in
light of God's (Love's) clearly expressed heart,
promise, desire, purpose and will. They ARE
"everlasting"; that is, they are continuous and
on-going--until--God's judgments serve to accomplish
His unchanging will and purpose to unite ALL creation
in Christ. (Gen. 12:3, Romans 4:13, Heb. 6:17).

Truly God's judgments are in the earth-until-mercy
shall triumph over those judgments. (James 2:13)

In Adam ALL died, that is,--until-in Christ shall ALL
be made alive, but each in his own order. (1 Cor.
15:22) Paul reemphasized this important truth in
Romans 5:18. "Through the one man's offense judgment
came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation, that
is,--until-through one Man's righteous act the free
gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of
life." It is righteous AND fair that because all were
condemned to death through Adam's one act of
disobedience that God undo that unrighteous act and
give us all life. We didn't ask to die and we should
have to ask to live. God is God. Why do we get mad
when He becomes good to all just because He delights
in doing good? There is a parable about some workers
who worked all day yet were given the same wages as
those who only worked a short while. Perhaps we,
Christians, should learn the lesson of that parable.
(Matt. 20:1-16) What is in us that doesn't think it's
fair if God gives us all eternal life? After all, did
we earn ours? Maybe that's where the real problem
lies. Many of us have been duped into mixing law and
works with grace thereby falling from grace and
becoming unrighteous judges just like the Pharisees of
old.

Gehenna's fires are not quenched and its worm does not
die--until--the restoration of all things which has
been spoken of by all God's holy prophets (Christ
included) since the world began. For our Savior did
not come to contradict His own prophets. Our Good
Shepherd and Faithful Deliverer came to fulfill the
law and the prophets! Thus our Lord does not cast off
forever (Lam. 3:31-32, Heb. 13:8). He who taught us to
forgive and bless our enemies will surely do the same
for His. For every tongue will give thanks that in Him
they have righteousness and strength. All flesh will
bless His name forever and ever! For our Lord will not
fail or become discouraged until He fulfills all of
God's purpose, word and will. For He tells us that
everyone will be "seasoned" with fire (Matt. 5:17,
Mark 9:42-49, Acts 3:21).

Those who disobey the gospel and persecute Christians
will be repaid with "everlasting" (that is,
continuous) tribulation, destruction and
punishment-until--by such persistent correction God
shows them their need for Christ. So what is written
in the prophets will come to pass, that ALL shall be
taught of God, and everyone who has heard and LEARNED
from the Father (eventually) comes to Christ. Thus,
all the families of the nations will remember Him and
worship before Him. And all will submit to Him and
sing His praise. So God's promise will be fulfilled
that ALL men shall reverence Him proclaim His works,
and wisely consider His doing (Ps. 22:27-28, 64:4-5,
64:9, 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

Paul the apostle understood the "forever until"
principle at work in God's redemptive judgments. He
knew the heart of God, and Paul also knew God's will,
purpose and plan. His knowledge of God's character,
will and purpose governed his understanding of
Scripture. That is why Paul could appear to contradict
the prophet David! Have a look at Romans 11:9-12 in
the NIV translation, where David prophesies in Psalm
69:22:

"May their table become a snare and a trap, a
stumbling block and a retribution to them. May their
eyes be darkened so they cannot see and their backs be
bent FOREVER."

And observe how Paul responds:

"Again I ask: Did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall
beyond recovery? NOT AT ALL! Rather, because of their
transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles
(pagans, all who are spiritually unenlightened) to
make Israel envious. For if their transgression means
RICHES for the WORLD, and their loss means riches for
the gentiles--how much greater riches will their
(Israel's) fullness bring?"

Wow. . . ! In the next three verses Paul assures us:

that Israel's fall is the reconciliation of the WORLD;

that Israel's fall will be (for them and all the
world) life from the dead! (Ez. 37);

Read all of Romans chapter eleven, and the Scriptures
will clearly speak for themselves. Practice reading
all of God's Word in light of His character,
commitment, purpose and reliable good pleasure and
will. Get God's "forever until" policy of judgment
settled in your heart--and get ready!

The "forever until" principle should really more
accurately be termed "present time until" principle,
NOT "forever-until. As the reader can plainly see from
the many Scriptures we quoted, the terms "forever and
ever," "eternal," "everlasting," etc., are
MIStranslations which appear in many of our leading
"selling" translations, but they never appeared in the
original languages of the Scriptures. The wages of sin
have always been DEATH, NOT "everlasting" punishment,
"everlasting" destruction" or burning in a lake of
fire "for ever and ever."

Yes, death, which was IMPUTED to all mankind through
the one unrighteous act of Adam, would send ALL of
mankind to death-until-Jesus would overcome all His
enemies, the last one being death itself. ALL death
will be over come by Jesus. The lake of fire is
defined by the Bible itself as the "second death."
(Rev. 20:14, Rev. 21:8) Death would reign-until Jesus
overcomes it and then Jesus will deliver the kingdom
unto God the Father, that He may be "all in all." (1
Cor. 15:28)

Blessings,
- Byron

[anti_nietzsche]

Thanks firstborn. Now I understand it all better. I'm glad I have this forum here where I can ask such questions and get such good answers which explain the bible instead of relying on reason alone.

[firstborn888]

Thanks firstborn. Now I understand it all better. I'm glad I have this forum here where I can ask such questions and get such good answers which explain the bible instead of relying on reason alone.

Scipture/Logic/Conscience is the 'holy trinity' in my book.  :Sparkletooth:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/382126-comprehensible-trinity.html

blessings,
- Byron