Universal Reconcilliation =+= All The Proofs! And All The Questions!

[laren]

Because the gospel hasn't really BEEN preached? 

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Rom 1:8  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

[autoimmune]

Hi, Mary Ellen,

"Christ is God's mercy."  That's a great way of putting it.  I also agree that there will be some formula of mercy and justice which will seem reasonable to us.

 It doesn't seem reasonable to me that God will overlook what a Hitler did, or even somehow restore him.

God taught me to identify assumptions and then re-ask questions.  The assumption I see here is that Merciful Love is overlooking a wrong-doing.  Because human reason cannot comprehend the Love or Mercy of God satisfactorily in this life, we find it hard to believe even a person like Hitler can be restored by God's grace and power.

I gave an anecdote in this thread a few pages back when I didn't want to respond theologically any more.  It was about my father who had seriously abused me.  Because I am human and equated justice with punishment, I figured God would somehow punish my father for what he had done to me.  Instead, after my father's death, I found myself being asked to forgive him so he could "go to heaven."  Not just that, but I had to be HAPPY as I gave him permission to go.

That experience was the beginning of a deeper understanding of what mercy and justice is all about.  How what we do for others in Love becomes our own link to further Love, and those who are forgiven then extend that mercy and love back to us and then outward to others.

Previous to that God had gifted me with a touch of his Love when I was 33 and I believe it was the first experience that gave meaning to the second, and I don't think I would have been able to understand what I do about UR without the two together.

During a particular weekend I first experienced His Love as "unitive" . . . I experienced what it means to find my identity IN God . . . and, for me, that was as perfect Freedom and Love. The Love was experienced from within, as total awareness of Life, an ecstatic feeling, because it was shared by two millenia of other members of the Body of Christ. It flowed in a never ending circle within that Body.

The next day the same experience began, but this time it was external, like something pouring over me. I fell to my knees within seconds and actually yelled out in pain, "Overload, God! Overload! Please, stop this or I'll die!"

I actually felt as if every cell in my brain and body and soul had ignited and were on fire, like an overloaded circuitry burning out in a flash of flaming pain. It was a pain beyond anything I had ever experienced before.  Excruciating--and hell--are the only words I can think of to describe the experience.

I came to realize over time that it was the same experience of God's Love, but the first was how Love is experienced when we are IN God because Christ is in us.  The second is when we experience that Love alone.  We simply cannot bear such overpowering Love without the aid of the Spirit of God.

And that's what "hell" will be like, imo. Because we refused Love in this life, never made the "connections" with others, the Love will have nowhere to go, our individual "circuitry" will burn with a fire we can't imagine, and it will hurt to be THAT alone and see ourselves in the Light of God's Love and Truth.

I believe what Jesus said, that His Father's sun (Love) shines on the just and the unjust alike, that He rains (his Love) on the good and the evil.

How we experience that Love will depend on the choices we make now.

What I've come to understand since, because of the experience after my father's death,  is that this is the purpose of our calling and being chosen as Christians--to prepare as part of the Body of Christ to help those we love bear God's Love they refused in this lifetime. We are to be to them as Christ was to us.  Mercy. We are to suffer innocently for and with them, as He suffered innocently for and with us.  We are to follow Him and walk and do exactly as He did.

It isn't a pleasant thing to contemplate stepping willingly into that burning Love again with people I know who are totally unprepared for it.  I know what it will be like and in some ways I dread it, for all that I am willing if called to do so.  

In some ways I wish I could back to thinking "lucky me, I've been saved." :)

But just as God's grace enabled me to forgive my father and be happy for him to have Love at last, I'm sure His grace will suffice for the Body as well.

My father wasn't able to accept God in his lifetime.  I believe that in the end, through my mercy on him, despite my desire for some sort of "payback" initially, he came to see what real Love is and his "metanoia" happened.

Hitler may have to stand unprotected in God's Love for a while as he asks for and receives forgiveness of all the wrong he did, but I believe it will happen and even he will ultimately be restored.
 
It would be hard for me to explain the mental image I have of the last judgment so many Christians fear so much. Much like the internet, I see a web of connections growing from Christ, to His Body, to the people those in His Body knew in this life, to those THEY knew and so forth, to all of creation.  One link at a time, but not really in time anymore.  A series of links that spans both time and people.  It grows until at last all IS all in Christ and He gives all creation back to the Father able to love Him at last as He loves us.

My 2 cents at least :)

   14Some people naturally obey the Law's commands, even though they don't have the Law. 15This proves that the conscience is like a law written in the human heart. And it will show whether we are forgiven or condemned, 16when God appoints Jesus Christ to judge everyone's secret thoughts, just as my message says.

--Romans 2

Those who truly pick up their crosses and follow Christ cannot do so without being sorely tested in their lifetimes on the issue of forgiveness, imo.  We are not saved from hell, but from condemnation.

All that means is that we will not stand convicted at the judgment because we are IN Christ.  Condemnation is simply a process of law, not a handing down of punishment.  Two separate things. Mercy is what mitigates the Justice as each person condemned learns to forgive.  

Christ is my mercy.  In Christ I become His mercy to those I knew in this life.

For instance, my husband is an atheist.  He knows my beliefs, that when he stands alone before God I will (with God's grace) stand with him.  Right now he thinks this is totally unfair.  Why should I suffer with him?  It's his choice to accept God's existence or not.

I usually laugh and say "Well, if you're right then it's a moot question anyway, honey. We'll both blink out into non-existence.   So, allow me my beliefs for now.'

The point is that even though my hubby can see no purpose to Christ's death for our sins or His Love for us by doing that, I CANNOT imagine him being unmoved by my sharing his pain in the Light of God's Love for him.  That kind of love he will understand, and it will, I believe, make him drop to his knees when he understand that it is only by the power of Jesus Christ's love for me that I would be able to love him (the hubby) that much as well.

He will undertand Love because of me personally, but it will be Christ IN me doing that loving.

I hope this helps you see a possibility for even Hitler, Molly.  Perhaps this also might help James as he seeks to discover the answers to his why me, why now, how does this all work questions.

It's still all through a mirror darkly to me, but I am satisfied with what God has given me to know so far.  Perhaps someday I will move into a more Love is All and nothing else is required understanding, but for now I'm content with this understanding of what Jesus meant in the many passages that talked about condemnation and judgment.

Sorry it was so long, but I figured it was time to give a clearer explanation of what I actually do believe.

ME

ME

[autoimmune]

Because the gospel hasn't really BEEN preached? 

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Rom 1:8  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

I apologize, Laren.  I was making a generalization and thought that was understood.  Not that the gospel has never been preached, but that for centuries it has been preached inaccurately, and perhaps that is why so much evil exists in this world.

ME

[Molly]

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

--1 Cor 3



12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

--Hebrews 5



If he fed us with meat, we would not be able to bear it, he says.  Why is that?  Strong meat, he says, belongs to them who by reason of use have exercised their senses to discern both good and evil.  What does that mean?

Is he explaining why we all instinctively turn away from evil?  Who can bear to look it in the face?  And, if you did, and learned it was bottomless, what then?  And, if you did, and learned that it describes everyone, including yourself, what then?  What if, forcing yourself to look at evil, you found you couldn't stop crying?  What if there were not enough tears in the world to wash it away?

We are afraid, and so we look away.  But what strong meat is fed to those who are of full age?

"...to discern good and evil."  What does that word mean?  Does it have overtones of judgment?

[pneuma]

If I do not STATE the exact word, is to surmise assumption in and of my words...

Willie everyone makes assumptions bro even you, did you not make an assumption that because Mary did not provide you scriptural reference that what Mary believed was not based on scripture?

You are aware that in this whole thread I have but quoted  one scripture are you not, so would you say that what I believe is not based on scripture also?

Willie it all comes down to how one likes to post, most times I am like you and quote many scriptures, but sometimes I just like talk as I would in a conversation with someone.

Believe it or not bro some people relate better to just speaking to them then when we overload them on scripture.

No brother, I do NOT consider it WRONG... I consider it VEILED... there is a difference... and there IS a PURPOSE in it's presence in Christian thought...

Albeit a clumsy illustration...

If GOD has a large locked garage in which a certain number of cars are parked... and I determine by information HE has to date, provided me that the number is four, when it is actually two...

The VEIL (lack of revelation) is that which has prevented me from KNOWING the EXACT number, and my best "observation" is not a determination which is WRONG...
it is a determination which (by GOD's decision) is made by lack of VISION of the CORRECT number...

I do not determine another WRONG, because that in essence, would be according to MY VIEW as compared to THEIRS... However...

If you and I are in DISCUSSION, and I show BIBLICAL basis for a given thing, and you argue with me STRICTLY from your viewpoint and DO NOT produce BIBLICAL basis... then the VEIL which in part, exists is the refusal to cooperatively address our two views as COMPARED to SCRIPTURE, not compared to ONE ANOTHER...

Mary continuously refused to reveal her view as it is founded in the Word...

Actually Willie we all make arguments from our view point, whether or not scripture is used. How many times have you seen a scripture quoted and an argument break out over the different views of how one interprets that scripture? It happens all the time.

So just because one does not quote scripture back at you does not mean one is refusing to cooperate in a discussion. But I do believe Mary said that she would provide you scripture if you needed it to understand her position.

But even if she supplied the scripture Willie then the debate would have just turned into a debate over what that scripture really means. It's really a no win situation.

pneumaQuote
So Mary was not baring false witness of you bro, she may have misunderstood your meaning just as I would have and so to I believe would others.

Now you may not have meant it that way bro but that how it comes across.

Sorry Scott... I appreciate what you say here, ...but it is NOT acceptable to me... As I explained above, VEILED as opposed to INCORRECT or WRONG is my observation...


Just as JESUS "came across" to the Pharisees (religious of their day/people of God)... so is this situation...

Because the answer is UNAVAILABLE to a given person, does not equate them to being WRONG... I do not percieve Mary to be WRONG, and have told her so... She or you don't accept that... not my problem bro...


The JEWS to which JESUS spoke PARABLES to, ...were NOT WRONG as they surmised Him ..."killing Himself" or ...wondered "HOW JESUS could re-erect in THREE DAYS, that which took Years to erect", etc...

UNDERSTANDING of what was TRULY being stated by CHRIST in SPIRITUAL terms, was WITHHELD from their NATURAL view of those terms...

So their view of His Words remained a NATURAL (veiled) observation, not a WRONG observation...

Potato, patato bro you say it is veiled from them which is just another way of saying they are to IMMATURE to see the deep things of God so all they can eat right now is breast milk. For if one is perceiving things from the NATURAL they are yet carnal, to which Paul says they are babes in Christ.

But all this is neither here nor there Willie, all I was trying to show you was how your own words could be misconstrued, if you cannot see this you cannot see this.

I'll get to the rest later brother, gotta go play some tunes...

Whenever you have the time bro, but just so you understand all I was doing was showing how what Mary believed was indeed based on scripture. She might have had other scriptures in mind when she was speaking then the ones I provided but the ones I provided should be enough to show that what she said was based on scripture.

[laren]

Because the gospel hasn't really BEEN preached? 

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Rom 1:8  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

I apologize, Laren.  I was making a generalization and thought that was understood.  Not that the gospel has never been preached, but that for centuries it has been preached inaccurately, and perhaps that is why so much evil exists in this world.

ME

I was quoting those scriptures to show that the gospel had been preached to "the whole world", and to "every creature" and that it has been  "heard". 


and in Col 1:5, it was an accurate gospel:

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth

and in Col 1:23 what was preached was the "hope of the gospel" to all creatures, "which Paul was a ministe of". 

I don't think Paul was a minister of an innacurate gospel.

and that the gospel "had been heard" throughout the whole world


heard:
G191
ἀκούω
akouō
ak-oo'-o
A primary verb; to hear (in various senses): - give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), ([shall]) hear (-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.


So anyway, my opinion; the gospel has been preached to the whole world, the true gospel, and it has been "heard".  so I personally don't think that an "innacurate" preaching of the gospel is why "so much evil is in the world"


just my two cents.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I apologize, Laren.  I was making a generalization and thought that was understood.  Not that the gospel has never been preached, but that for centuries it has been preached inaccurately, and perhaps that is why so much evil exists in this world.

I don't pretend to understand it, but if I am to try to see things in scripture then I have to at least see that scripture says, God created evil,  and we were subject to it unwillingly so that we could learn to understand hope that we also are subject to. 

The scriptures say we are given an experience to humble us. 

I think that the lack of preaching the gospel or at least the teachings that cause contempt and hatred when you do not agree with who is treaching is also evil, rather than that being the reason.

Here is also another scripture that leads me to believe along these lines.

"And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not trouble: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet" (Matt. 24:6).

If something must come to pass, then how will it not come to pass?

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:


If it has a stated (appointed) time, what will keep it from happening?


Now,  some have said that this is just generally speaking because of the limited list following the verse in eccesiastes.   Well, I think we can reasonably say that the list is indeed a general list to give us the idea that whatever we think shouldn't of happened, did indeed happen for a reason.

[pneuma]

Hi Laren, hows it going brother?

Yes the gospel was preached to the whole world during THIS TIME, but since the days of the apostles have faded into history the gospel has been misreprehened.

Paul preached a true gospel as did the rest in thier day, but it is not so now.

To make Paul's statement mean that the gospel being preached in the whole world to mean OUR DAY is a bit of a streach don't you think?

It HAD been preached, but it is not so NOW.

see what I mean?

[laren]

Hi Laren, hows it going brother?

Yes the gospel was preached to the whole world during THIS TIME, but since the days of the apostles have faded into history the gospel has been misreprehened.

Paul preached a true gospel as did the rest in thier day, but it is not so now.

To make Paul's statement mean that the gospel being preached in the whole world to mean OUR DAY is a bit of a streach don't you think?

It HAD been preached, but it is not so NOW.

see what I mean?

Hi Scott, been doing pretty good, how are things with yu?

What I find interesting, and what leans me toward a preterist view is that the gospel was preached to the whole world, just as the verses say, and you agree with.

and then we have this verse:

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


etc.  I'm sure u have read the imminent text's.


So, for me;

I agree there is a gospel preached out there that is preached that is not the true gospel, of unconditional LOVE. 

but this imo,is done in ignorance of what has already been accomplished.  I have no problem seeeing an internal (inward) working of the gospel in us; but do think if we place a hope of some "return of Christ" to punish/correct the "evil out there" and save "us" (us versus them belief) rather than an "evil" in us being burned up, and a "Christ in us' being preserved then we are in for a fulfillment of this:

Pro 13:12  Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.


I think we too often look at the external world, and then say, "proof" the old covenant (between God and man) is still mostly in effect while only a few have been given eyes to see. 

Then we have to come up with some theories on how to explain the verse that the gospel was preached to the whole world, and therefore the end came. 


just where i'm at in my walk.

blessings

laren

[Taffy]

Gee guys

This thread has grown some.... :icon_flower:

Some posts  back a few words were added encouraging Willieh to bow out .

Id like to also mention that this is a discussion forum , if members are going to respond to a Post then at Least expect a response from the poster .

If one chooses to respond thereafter, then also expect another response , if you dont wish to discuss with certain individuals then I suggest dont entice be it  them to do so.


Thank you.

Blessings
Taffy

[pneuma]

Hi Scott, been doing pretty good, how are things with yu?

Same here, pretty good

What I find interesting, and what leans me toward a preterist view is that the gospel was preached to the whole world, just as the verses say, and you agree with.

and then we have this verse:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


etc. I'm sure u have read the imminent text's.


So, for me;

I agree there is a gospel preached out there that is preached that is not the true gospel, of unconditional LOVE.

but this imo,is done in ignorance of what has already been accomplished. I have no problem seeeing an internal (inward) working of the gospel in us; but do think if we place a hope of some "return of Christ" to punish/correct the "evil out there" and save "us" (us versus them belief) rather than an "evil" in us being burned up, and a "Christ in us' being preserved then we are in for a fulfillment of this:

Pro 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.


I think we too often look at the external world, and then say, "proof" the old covenant (between God and man) is still mostly in effect while only a few have been given eyes to see.

Then we have to come up with some theories on how to explain the verse that the gospel was preached to the whole world, and therefore the end came.


just where i'm at in my walk.

I have no problem relating scripture inwardly either Laren, but also see how what is worked inwardly by the Spirit is also worked out naturally, first the natural then the spiritual.

Therefore to me it is both, I still see God working throughout the ages to be applied naturally.

Here a reply I made to Matt Slick regarding this because he said God does not get what God wills.



Now that's a well thought out explanation Matt Just gave IF God only dealt with man in this age. But we are all well aware God does not just deal with man in this age but also in the age to come.

When God said I will accomplish all My good pleasure and that He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will Is.46:10 & Eph.1:11 it is incumbent on the child of God to believe just what God Himself proclaims.

Matt does not believe Gods will, will be done because Matt is only looking at the present age we now live it where Gods will is not yet being done.

Jesus taught us to pray Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Mt.6:9-10

To me it is obvious the Fathers kingdom has not yet come nor is His will yet being done on earth.

Thus Matt concludes because the Fathers will is not yet done on earth as it is in heaven that the Fathers will, will be thwarted, but this is just not the case, for God Himself proclaimed I will accomplish ALL my good pleasure.

In the age to come when His kingdom is on the earth His will, will be done and He will accomplish ALL His good pleasure.

When the child of God looks to understand God and His purpose they must come into the realisation that He is the everlasting God or literally the God of the ages, and when they come into this realisation then Gods word does not contradict itself.

Isaiah 55:10-11
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The WORD did come out from God, made in the likeness of flesh for the salvation of the whole world. And as the WORD was sent forth it will not return void but shall accomplish EVERYTHING that it was sent to do.

Why do so many still believe His WORD came in vain? The salvation of the whole world was His purpose in coming so what can we say if He does not fulfill His purpose? There is only one conclusion, His WORD returned void. Believe what you will, I believe His WORD will do exactly what He came to do. Like it or not brothers and sisters Gods WORD Jesus Christ will fulfill to the fullest exactly what He came to do, THE SALVATION OF ALL.

So if Gods kingdom has already come and His will already done on earth then what Jesus taught us to pray becomes redundant.

It is only when we keep His commandments can we enter within the gates of the city.

Also read my first post in this thread to see the differences of how I see God working by His different names.

God bless

[Molly]

Why do so many still believe His WORD came in vain?

um...maybe because we look around and see things getting worse and worse?

I like what you said about "God of the ages."

So--what is the purpose of this age?

And when will the next age arrive?  date and time please because I'm on my last nerve.

[laren]

I have no problem relating scripture inwardly either Laren, but also see how what is worked inwardly by the Spirit is also worked out naturally, first the natural then the spiritual.

Therefore to me it is both, I still see God working throughout the ages to be applied naturally.

God bless

So do you see this verse as fulfilled? 

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



since the gospel was preached to the whole world, why didn't the end come??  why is there ages yet to come??

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott...  :happygrin:

The biggest objection I have with Mary Ellen's views are that she does NOT FOUND them in the WORD...

I don't mind opposition, and I know that ALL of us have many things to learn and are each in need correction as we search... but it must be done from the BIBLE, not from opinion, which is where Mary basically lives...

No matter what view we have of YHVH, we must base that view from His WORDS... otherwise, it shall soon morph into complete fallacy...

Willie Mary's view is based on scripture bro, not everyone speaks after the same fashion as you know. Some of us speak using a lot of scriptures and some of us just like to talk about their hope in Him instead of getting into scripture after scripture.

Myself I enjoy reading both ways and when one just speaks of their hope in Christ I can read between the lines so to speak and see the scripture references.

As you just stated YOUR preferences and observations, so do I brother Scott... That Mary abstains from Scriptural support of her beliefs is OK with you... NOT with me...

There are many which visit Tentmaker which no literally NOTHING of the content of Scripture, nor the need to base our beliefs UPON IT... and posts such as Mary Ellen's "style" displays... can potentially mislead those who are not as "well-read" as is Mary, you or I... And THAT is WHY I object to her presentations...

You don't object to this, and I respect your right to do so... as far as I am concerned, I DO OBJECT to it, and equally hold that right to do so...  :dontknow:

Without going into all of yours and Mary's posts I am only going to give you a couple of example.

Example: (1) Mary said something about littler sins and you said there is no scripture that says anything about littler sins. And although the scripture do not use the term littler sins, I understand scripture to express just that. (2)  Two sets of scriptures that come to my mind upon reading Mary's littler sins are where it says 6 things God hate, yea even 7 and then proceeds to name these 7 sins God hates, are there more sins then 7? Surely, but it does not say God hates them. (3)  This to me would indicate that above all other sins God places these in a higher order if you will. The other scripture that comes to mind is the blaspheme of the Holy Ghost which implies it is a blaspheme greater then other blasphemes.

(1) "Not going into" the posts shows what you have NOT SEEN in those posts Scott...  :mshock:

The point was not as much "littler sins" Scott... (although that designation is NOT Scriptural and IS contested by me), it was about THIS:

Mary Ellen stated (in those posts into which you have NOT LOOKED) that JESUS covers the "Littler sins" and WE are RESPONSIBLE for the BIGGER ONES...   

Which is to say that JESUS' sacrifice TOOK AWAY the "littler sins" (stealing a piece of bubble gum) but not the BIGGER ones (grand theft auto)  :dontknow:  Sorry Scott,  ...THIS statement is UNSCRIPTURAL, regardless of how you might or might not view, ..."littler sins"...

(2)  Scripture does designate that GOD "hates" specific things... but on closer observation of the word HATE as translated into English... the word flows in meaning toward ENEMIES... and though it is not the specific word for ENEMIES in Hebrew it IS translated so, in 2 Sam 19:6...

My point here is that HATE and ENEMIES are of the same breeding... GOD actually "HATES" ALL that takes LIFE from His SON... even the stealing of bubblegum...  :dontknow: (I do not believe HATE proceeds from LOVE - I believe that it is Divine distaste which GOD condescends with the word HATE, that we might "get" His drift)...

(3)  You are welcome to assume that there is a set of levels which GOD observes SIN... But SCRIPTURE does NOT set those LEVELS... That GOD would find SIN detestable in any form is a more (IMO) accurate observation of SIN, not the NATURAL observation made by SINNERS of degrees...

As far as the "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit"... again you resort to ASSUMING it to be apart from other sin IN LEVEL... but Scripture does NOT state this.  It states that concerning forgiveness (it WILL be FORGIVEN)... that in the AGE this sin was described, and the AGE to come, it would not be FORGIVEN...

If this SIN were UNFORGIVEABLE, because its LEVEL were higher than other SIN, then JESUS did not TAKE AWAY the SIN of the WORLD, ...for the "Blasphemy of the HS" ...is a PART of the SIN of the WORLD... therefore John 1:29 is compromised, as well as 2 Cor 5:19

The next example is Mary said something about us needing (1) to accept Christ and you said no scripture state such. (2) But they do imply it bro. the scripture that comes to my mind is every knee bowing and tongue CONFESSING that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Confess-

1)   to confess
2)   to profess
2a)   acknowledge openly and joyfully
2b)   to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
2c)   to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage


Accept-

come to terms with something: to acknowledge a fact or truth and come to terms with it
believe something: to acknowledge that something is true

Let me address the above before moving on bro... with all due respect to you as my brother (and I DO respect both YOU and your knowledge of Scripture - you know that!)...

(1)  I stand by what I said... this marks TWO EXAMPLES in which you note IMPLICATION, as opposed to QUOTING plainly that the Scripture verifies the implication... Your own definitions of "ACCEPT" and "CONFESS" differ with one another...  Even in the HIGHLIGHTS you have done... CONFESS says "acknowledge openly and joyfully"  and ACCEPT says "acknowledge that something is TRUE"...  the word TRUE is absent in your defintion of CONFESS...

1.  I can ACCEPT something WITHOUT CONFESSING that acceptance, nor by that ACCEPTANCE do I necessarily make an acknowledgement of TRUTH, ...for instance, I can "ACCEPT" a given candidate in an ELECTION, and vote for him, without necessarily acknowledging BY CONFESSION to others, that all he says or does is TRUE...

...AND

2.  it is entirely possible to CONFESS something that one ...does NOT "ACCEPT"... I ACCEPT the citation that an officer gives me for speeding... but make NO CONFESSION of GUILT by that ACCEPTANCE... 

The common belief of "accepting CHRIST" is the "born again" belief... meaning that because one uttered a few words at church (sinners prayer), that from that point on, ...its "all good"...and they can behave as do those who haven't CONFESSED or ACCEPTED... and still, ..."its all good"...

This is in part, what CHRIST was speaking of in Matt 7:21-23... these surely CONFESSED... for they called JESUS Lord... (1 Cor 12:3)

How MISLEADING is all this Scott?  :mshock:  Many if not MOST Christians are Sunday believers, carrying with them and counting on their church attendance and eventual "CONFESSION"... as their "following of CHRIST"... believing their other 6 days of purposed and willful misbehavior are covered by this "fire insurance" the preacher sold them at the Sunday service! 

(2)  The definitions you give above for CONFESS and ACCEPT are NOT completely parallel... and ONE can live without the other present.

Plus we do have a few scriptures that attest to accepting Him

Acts 2:39-41
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received/ACCEPTED his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

This is a STRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRETCH and you know it brother Scott... continue reading the passage bro, and you will arrive at Acts 2:47... which shows GOD ADDING these to His church, by His DOING, not via ...their "acceptance"...

The word "received" in this verse amounts to HEARING... not "acceptance"...

(Rom 10:17)  FAITH cometh BY HEARING and HEARING, ...BY the WORD of GOD...

In other words HEARING which produces FAITH, is enabled TO the listener BY the WORD... the WORD opens the ears... and IN rushes FAITH...

We HEAR because GOD gives the EARS to HEAR His WORD (Rev 2:29 / 3:22)  Not because WE decide to "accept it"...

"ACCEPTING" in ORTHODOXY is a decision MADE by the INDIVIDUAL and is PREACHED as such... I spent around 25 years in the Orthodox church and am well aware of their methods...

In Acts 2 ...it is GOD who ADDS to His church, ...the church or individuals of that church do NOT, ...ADD THEMSELVES... (Acts 2:47) ...which appears to be what you propose (adding themselves via their "receiving/acceptance") ...6 verses before... 

Not everything is as it seems bro, and sometimes we have to look behind the words when one just speaks to see the scriptures being used.

God bless

"Not everything is as it seems bro"... Pneuma

If someone wishes to POSE beliefs... I believe those beliefs must be substanciated by the WORDS of GOD which in the end is OUR foundational WITNESS, ...our words standing alone are opinion only, whose essence  is weakly implied, ...not garnished WITH POWER, GLORIFYING the One whose WORDS should be GLORIFIED...

I certainly agree with this statement Scott... and may I make the same SUGGESTION to you my dear brother...  :shakepoint: :IloveU:

Blessed are the peacemakers Scott... God bless you for you words to me...  :cloud9:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[Molly]

I have no problem relating scripture inwardly either Laren, but also see how what is worked inwardly by the Spirit is also worked out naturally, first the natural then the spiritual.

Therefore to me it is both, I still see God working throughout the ages to be applied naturally.

God bless

So do you see this verse as fulfilled? 

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



since the gospel was preached to the whole world, why didn't the end come??  why is there ages yet to come??

Not that I know, but it could be that it was the end of the age of Law [ministration of condemnation] and the beginning of the age of grace [ministration of righteousness], and the grafting in of the Gentiles...

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


It just amazes me that the temple has never been rebuilt since 70 ad, and that this time was the end of animal sacrifice and the priesthood of Aaron.

So-- one could call this the "Messianic age."




9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

--2 Cor 3

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother Scott...  :icon_flower:

If I do not STATE the exact word, is to surmise assumption in and of my words...

Willie everyone makes assumptions bro even you, did you not make an assumption that because Mary did not provide you scriptural reference that what Mary believed was not based on scripture?

No I did not... I asked her to prove that her belief was Scriptural by noting those upon which she based those beliefs... that is no assumption that she did not base her beliefs on Scripture, it was a request she do so, that others including myself, might see where she is coming from...

She opts not to do this, so her beliefs remain visibly based solely upon her words and not upon GOD's WORDS... (until such time, if ever, ...she reveals the foundational setting in Scripture upon which her beliefs rest)...

You are aware that in this whole thread I have but quoted  one scripture are you not, so would you say that what I believe is not based on scripture also?

You are not trying to propose or substanciate your beliefs Scott...

You are analyzing the convo between Mary and myself... and therefore have no reason to substanciate your observation of that convo in Scripture...

You DO mention a Scripture below, and I have commented upon it...  :mwink:

Willie it all comes down to how one likes to post, most times I am like you and quote many scriptures, but sometimes I just like talk as I would in a conversation with someone.

Believe it or not bro some people relate better to just speaking to them then when we overload them on scripture.

I often speak without noting Scripture when I am not proposing that GOD says something in His WORD, which I BELIEVE... Such as the interaction of this post to this point... You and I are not discussing particular BELIEFS brother, we are discussing the manner in which BELIEFS are substanciated... (or not substanciated)

No brother, I do NOT consider it WRONG... I consider it VEILED... there is a difference... and there IS a PURPOSE in it's presence in Christian thought...

Albeit a clumsy illustration...

If GOD has a large locked garage in which a certain number of cars are parked... and I determine by information HE has to date, provided me that the number is four, when it is actually two...

The VEIL (lack of revelation) is that which has prevented me from KNOWING the EXACT number, and my best "observation" is not a determination which is WRONG...
it is a determination which (by GOD's decision) is made by lack of VISION of the CORRECT number...

I do not determine another WRONG, because that in essence, would be according to MY VIEW as compared to THEIRS... However...

If you and I are in DISCUSSION, and I show BIBLICAL basis for a given thing, and you argue with me STRICTLY from your viewpoint and DO NOT produce BIBLICAL basis... then the VEIL which in part, exists is the refusal to cooperatively address our two views as COMPARED to SCRIPTURE, not compared to ONE ANOTHER...

Mary continuously refused to reveal her view as it is founded in the Word...

Actually Willie we all make arguments from our view point, whether or not scripture is used. How many times have you seen a scripture quoted and an argument break out over the different views of how one interprets that scripture? It happens all the time.

So just because one does not quote scripture back at you does not mean one is refusing to cooperate in a discussion. But I do believe Mary said that she would provide you scripture if you needed it to understand her position.

But even if she supplied the scripture Willie then the debate would have just turned into a debate over what that scripture really means. It's really a no win situation.

I fully realize this brother... the point is that how may a differentiation which is ABOUT Scripture even be made, when the Scriptures are not even NOTED?  :dontknow:

There is no debate!  She refuses to name what might even propose a debate!  :laughing7:

pneumaQuote
So Mary was not baring false witness of you bro, she may have misunderstood your meaning just as I would have and so to I believe would others.

Now you may not have meant it that way bro but that how it comes across.

Sorry Scott... I appreciate what you say here, ...but it is NOT acceptable to me... As I explained above, VEILED as opposed to INCORRECT or WRONG is my observation...


Just as JESUS "came across" to the Pharisees (religious of their day/people of God)... so is this situation...

Because the answer is UNAVAILABLE to a given person, does not equate them to being WRONG... I do not percieve Mary to be WRONG, and have told her so... She or you don't accept that... not my problem bro...


The JEWS to which JESUS spoke PARABLES to, ...were NOT WRONG as they surmised Him ..."killing Himself" or ...wondered "HOW JESUS could re-erect in THREE DAYS, that which took Years to erect", etc...

UNDERSTANDING of what was TRULY being stated by CHRIST in SPIRITUAL terms, was WITHHELD from their NATURAL view of those terms...

So their view of His Words remained a NATURAL (veiled) observation, not a WRONG observation...

Potato, patato bro you say it is veiled from them which is just another way of saying they are to IMMATURE to see the deep things of God so all they can eat right now is breast milk. For if one is perceiving things from the NATURAL they are yet carnal, to which Paul says they are babes in Christ.

Tom A to... Tom AH to...  :pointlaugh:

If the shoe fits, ...well, one knows what to do with it...  :dontknow:

The fact remains that I DID NOT say she was IMMATURE... she provides herself such labels (without my assistance) with her inability or refusal to note the portions of GOD's WORD upon which she establishes her beliefs...

As far as NATURAL... a portion of ALL of our views is in this state...  for we look through a lens which is clouded by Darkness... and no one "knows it all"... 

NO one is completely VEILED or REVEALED, it is a process we SUBMIT to over a lifetime, that GOD is enacting in us... That process includes both veiling and revelation... when someone is veiled he/she is not incorrect or wrong, their view of the TRUTH is shrouded purposely by GOD...  One is WRONG when another, by comparison to their own view, determines the other INCORRECT...

When we present our beliefs, GOD is able and DOES change those FALSE images that we ALL have over time, according to HIS PURPOSES for us.

RIGHT and WRONG?  I don't see it... I used to,  :sigh: ...and found that GOD revealed ME as INCORRECT for determining another INCORRECT...

In this He showed me that ALL humans are partially veiled and revealed...

Some in Christianity are VEILED from certain SPIRITUAL things,  that Hindus, Shintoists, Moslems, or Buddhists KNOW and daily practice... in turn, ...CHRIST is REVEALED to the "CHRISTIAN"... a TRUTH of which, the Hindus, Shintoists, Moslems and Buddhists shall one day find was Veiled from their vision...

GOD is thereby keeping all men humble by this...  :blush: :GBlush:

When someone refuses to name Scripture upon which they base their beliefs... it indicates concerning Scriptural foundation/substanciation, that either...

(1) They do not know where the verses ARE...
(2) Do not know if there ARE verses...
(3) Haven't looked to see if there ARE verses...
(4) ARE clinging to something another has told them, in whom they trust...
(5) They KNOW there ARE not verses which provide that foundation...
(6) ARE obstinate and possibly unsure of those verses...

What does this mean?  It means they ARE willing abstainers from the WORD.

But all this is neither here nor there Willie, all I was trying to show you was how your own words could be misconstrued, if you cannot see this you cannot see this.

I know I am misundertood and that I am capable of misunderstanding... and I have noted several times, that I appreciate your endeavor to help both Mary and myself as a 3rd party observer, find peace in our interaction...  :Peace2:

I'll get to the rest later brother, gotta go play some tunes...

Whenever you have the time bro, but just so you understand all I was doing was showing how what Mary believed was indeed based on scripture.

She might have had other scriptures in mind when she was speaking then the ones I provided but the ones I provided should be enough to show that what she said was based on scripture.

Though you do, ...I do not believe you have necessarily done that Scott... and besides, it is not up to you to provide Scriptural foundation for her beliefs...

THAT is up to her... and is and will be her right to abstain from doing so, regardless of your interventions here... or my objections to that abstaination...

It does not matter what "Scriptures" she "had in mind"... we can't read her "mind" and she (at least for now) is unwilling to reveal what is in "her mind" concerning Scripture...  :dunno:

But once again, thanks  :giveheart:  ...for your efforts on behalf of peace!   :Peace:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[pneuma]

As you just stated YOUR preferences and observations, so do I brother Scott... That Mary abstains from Scriptural support of her beliefs is OK with you... NOT with me...

There are many which visit Tentmaker which no literally NOTHING of the content of Scripture, nor the need to base our beliefs UPON IT... and posts such as Mary Ellen's "style" displays... can potentially mislead those who are not as "well-read" as is Mary, you or I... And THAT is WHY I object to her presentations...

You don't object to this, and I respect your right to do so... as far as I am concerned, I DO OBJECT to it, and equally hold that right to do so...

Willie you were NOT objecting to Mary's presentation bro, you were saying what she believes is NOT based on scripture. A big difference.

But as to writing styles, its like I said bro some people can relate better to one who does not over load them on scripture. You can object to that style of writing as is your right, but it simply is NOT your call, and you cannot force anyone to write after your style.

I to like people to point out what scriptures they are referring to as it makes it easier to understand where their coming from, but I do not need them to.

(1) "Not going into" the posts shows what you have NOT SEEN in those posts Scott...

The point was not as much "littler sins" Scott... (although that designation is NOT Scriptural and IS contested by me), it was about THIS:

Mary Ellen stated (in those posts into which you have NOT LOOKED) that JESUS covers the "Littler sins" and WE are RESPONSIBLE for the BIGGER ONES...

Which is to say that JESUS' sacrifice TOOK AWAY the "littler sins" (stealing a piece of bubble gum) but not the BIGGER ones (grand theft auto) Sorry Scott, ...THIS statement is UNSCRIPTURAL, regardless of how you might or might not view, ..."littler sins"...

I disagree brother for I do see that recorded in scripture.

1 John 5:14-17
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:  15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

And

Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS.

You can disagree with that interpretation of those SCRIPTURES Willie, but your disagreement does not mean that my interpretation is not based on scripture.

(2) Scripture does designate that GOD "hates" specific things... but on closer observation of the word HATE as translated into English... the word flows in meaning toward ENEMIES... and though it is not the specific word for ENEMIES in Hebrew it IS translated so, in 2 Sam 19:6...

My point here is that HATE and ENEMIES are of the same breeding... GOD actually "HATES" ALL that takes LIFE from His SON... even the stealing of bubblegum... (I do not believe HATE proceeds from LOVE - I believe that it is Divine distaste which GOD condescends with the word HATE, that we might "get" His drift)...

(3) You are welcome to assume that there is a set of levels which GOD observes SIN... But SCRIPTURE does NOT set those LEVELS... That GOD would find SIN detestable in any form is a more (IMO) accurate observation of SIN, not the NATURAL observation made by SINNERS of degrees...

There is a sin UNTO DEATH and there is a sin NOT unto death, this tells me that there is littler sins bro, you can disagree with my interpretation but you cannot say its UNSCRIPTURAL.

As far as the "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit"... again you resort to ASSUMING it to be apart from other sin IN LEVEL... but Scripture does NOT state this. It states that concerning forgiveness (it WILL be FORGIVEN)... that in the AGE this sin was described, and the AGE to come, it would not be FORGIVEN...

If this SIN were UNFORGIVEABLE, because its LEVEL were higher than other SIN, then JESUS did not TAKE AWAY the SIN of the WORLD, ...for the "Blasphemy of the HS" ...is a PART of the SIN of the WORLD... therefore John 1:29 is compromised, as well as 2 Cor 5:19

Willie again and again your disagreement with how one understands scripture does NOT make it UNSCRIPTURAL, which is what this is about. You said Mary's belief was not based on scripture, I gave you scripture that shows Mary's belief IS based on scripture.

Let me put it this way bro, do you honestly think I would have agreed with Mary's answers to you if I did not see scriptural references in her answers?

As to how Jesus takes away the sin of the world Willie I understand that differently then you do. But I am not going to go into it as I am trying to stay away from debates as it more time then not seems to lead to a fight and hard feelings and I am just plain tired of it.

Let me address the above before moving on bro... with all due respect to you as my brother (and I DO respect both YOU and your knowledge of Scripture - you know that!)...

(1) I stand by what I said... this marks TWO EXAMPLES in which you note IMPLICATION, as opposed to QUOTING plainly that the Scripture verifies the implication... Your own definitions of "ACCEPT" and "CONFESS" differ with one another... Even in the HIGHLIGHTS you have done... CONFESS says "acknowledge openly and joyfully" and ACCEPT says "acknowledge that something is TRUE"... the word TRUE is absent in your defintion of CONFESS...

1. I can ACCEPT something WITHOUT CONFESSING that acceptance, nor by that ACCEPTANCE do I necessarily make an acknowledgement of TRUTH, ...for instance, I can "ACCEPT" a given candidate in an ELECTION, and vote for him, without necessarily acknowledging BY CONFESSION to others, that all he says or does is TRUE...

...AND

2. it is entirely possible to CONFESS something that one ...does NOT "ACCEPT"... I ACCEPT the citation that an officer gives me for speeding... but make NO CONFESSION of GUILT by that ACCEPTANCE...

The common belief of "accepting CHRIST" is the "born again" belief... meaning that because one uttered a few words at church (sinners prayer), that from that point on, ...its "all good"...and they can behave as do those who haven't CONFESSED or ACCEPTED... and still, ..."its all good"...

This is in part, what CHRIST was speaking of in Matt 7:21-23... these surely CONFESSED... for they called JESUS Lord... (1 Cor 12:3)

How MISLEADING is all this Scott? Many if not MOST Christians are Sunday believers, carrying with them and counting on their church attendance and eventual "CONFESSION"... as their "following of CHRIST"... believing their other 6 days of purposed and willful misbehavior are covered by this "fire insurance" the preacher sold them at the Sunday service!

(2) The definitions you give above for CONFESS and ACCEPT are NOT completely parallel... and ONE can live without the other present.

Again bro it comes down to the way you read things, but that does not mean it is not based on scripture just because you do not agree with it.

This is a STRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRETCH and you know it brother Scott... continue reading the passage bro, and you will arrive at Acts 2:47... which shows GOD ADDING these to His church, by His DOING, not via ...their "acceptance"...

The word "received" in this verse amounts to HEARING... not "acceptance"...

(Rom 10:17) FAITH cometh BY HEARING and HEARING, ...BY the WORD of GOD...

In other words HEARING which produces FAITH, is enabled TO the listener BY the WORD... the WORD opens the ears... and IN rushes FAITH...

We HEAR because GOD gives the EARS to HEAR His WORD (Rev 2:29 / 3:22) Not because WE decide to "accept it"...

"ACCEPTING" in ORTHODOXY is a decision MADE by the INDIVIDUAL and is PREACHED as such... I spent around 25 years in the Orthodox church and am well aware of their methods...

In Acts 2 ...it is GOD who ADDS to His church, ...the church or individuals of that church do NOT, ...ADD THEMSELVES... (Acts 2:47) ...which appears to be what you propose (adding themselves via their "receiving/acceptance") ...6 verses before...

Its not a STRRRRRRRRRRRETCH Willie it just the difference between how we both view scripture. You say it does not mean this or that and I say it does, and you can believe it is a STRRRRRRRETCH as is your right, but that does not make me veiled as you put it because for all you know I have the right of it and you are the one being veiled.

That's why I said even if Mary posted scripture it would not do any good because it would not matter what scripture she gave, you would just disagree with her interpretation of scripture, it's a no win situation bro.

"Not everything is as it seems bro"... Pneuma

If someone wishes to POSE beliefs... I believe those beliefs must be substanciated by the WORDS of GOD which in the end is OUR foundational WITNESS, ...our words standing alone are opinion only, whose essence is weakly implied, ...not garnished WITH POWER, GLORIFYING the One whose WORDS should be GLORIFIED...

I certainly agree with this statement Scott... and may I make the same SUGGESTION to you my dear brother...

Again bro it comes down to what YOU BELIEVE must be done, but again bro that ain't your call. You can believe people have to post scripture in order to substantiate their belief or its just their opinion all you like, but that does NOT mean their opinion is not based on scripture, which is what you said of Mary.

Do you not believe the Spirit can show one about Christ without the use of scripture? If so why cannot Mary's words used without scripture be used of the Spirit to show forth Christ?

Blessed are the peacemakers Scott... God bless you for you words to me...

This made me laugh bro, kind of funny to me to think others might see me as a peacemaker after all the battles I have been in over scripture on this board.

So when its all said and done Willie you can believe that Mary is veiled but you cannot state that what she believes is not based on scripture just because she did not use any.

God bless bro.

[pneuma]

So do you see this verse as fulfilled?

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



since the gospel was preached to the whole world, why didn't the end come?? why is there ages yet to come??

Laren Jesus is answering some questions put to Him by His disciples who asked  "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

World here is AGE

So Jesus answering said And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The end of what?

The AGE

[laren]

So do you see this verse as fulfilled?

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



since the gospel was preached to the whole world, why didn't the end come?? why is there ages yet to come??

Laren Jesus is answering some questions put to Him by His disciples who asked  "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

World here is AGE

So Jesus answering said And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The end of what?

The AGE

I think I get what u are saying: so, the end of "the age", but not the end of "ages".   and that "thy coming is not the same as the end of the age??  In other words the age ended, but thy coming did not occur???

What age do you think followed the end of that "age"?? 

and what determines in your opinion, the end of "ages".  Does this happen collectively, all at once; or is this an ongoing individual thing?  and do you see physical death as the end of ages for a person?? 



hopefully this is not too far of a sidetrack of the thread, and if so, moderators move it.  thanks



thanks

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Although it has been quite a while, it seems that you and I once we get involved in discussion, rarely see eye to eye...

We've danced this tango before brother, and I see no point in going back & forth, with neither of us gaining anything by it... I shall not be moved, and neither shall you...  so after this answer, I shall leave you to your deductions of Scripture and of me as well, which from my vision, are quite inaccurate...

Many of the things written, if not MOST are SPIRITUAL (even though the Natural is both referenced and noted)... and there are multiple and layered meanings within those SPIRITUAL notations...

I do not deduce you wrong... as it seems you wish to do with me... so rather than spend much more time in the mud with you... I leave you to your conclusions and you and Mary are welcome to them...

No hard feelings... but you admitted that you had not looked into the thread concerning Mary and I, yet proceeded to comment nevertheless... bull in a china shop...  :dontknow:

Willie you were NOT objecting to Mary's presentation bro, you were saying what she believes is NOT based on scripture. A big difference.

I do not object to anyones beliefs... you are welcome bro, to believe airplanes fly underwater if you choose, no sweat...

I object to statements which are aimed at the WORD which do not use it... whether you like it or not... it is my right to object...

But as to writing styles, its like I said bro some people can relate better to one who does not over load them on scripture. You can object to that style of writing as is your right, but it simply is NOT your call, and you cannot force anyone to write after your style.

If you wish to observe this, it is fine, but do not insist the method of observation I have to be as is yours...  :thumbdown:  Otherwise you are simply doing what you accuse me of doing to her!   :dontknow:

I to like people to point out what scriptures they are referring to as it makes it easier to understand where their coming from, but I do not need them to.

That's nice... I'm glad for you...  :laughing7: 

That does not do it for me... for it is unhelpful to those observing, to abstain from Scripturally proving ones views... Not everyone is as "versed and knowledgeable as are you", Scott... :rolleye:

(1) "Not going into" the posts shows what you have NOT SEEN in those posts Scott...

The point was not as much "littler sins" Scott... (although that designation is NOT Scriptural and IS contested by me), it was about THIS:

Mary Ellen stated (in those posts into which you have NOT LOOKED) that JESUS covers the "Littler sins" and WE are RESPONSIBLE for the BIGGER ONES...

Which is to say that JESUS' sacrifice TOOK AWAY the "littler sins" (stealing a piece of bubble gum) but not the BIGGER ones (grand theft auto) Sorry Scott, ...THIS statement is UNSCRIPTURAL, regardless of how you might or might not view, ..."littler sins"...

I disagree brother for I do see that recorded in scripture.

1 John 5:14-17
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:  15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

And

Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS.

You can disagree with that interpretation of those SCRIPTURES Willie, but your disagreement does not mean that my interpretation is not based on scripture.

As I see it these Scriptures you pose are proposals of FEAR, and Mary's Littler/bigger SIN philosphy is embedded in the same essence... You both are welcome to it...  :dontknow:

You and I have not been discussing YOU Scott... we were discussing the interaction between Mary and I... try to stay focused...  :dontknow:

I am surprised that you cannot see the essence Scott... YOU are posing SCRIPTURE for your "interpretation" or "observation"... and are welcome to that interpretation, and at least it finds SCRIPTURAL validity ...as it RESTS upon the Scripture YOU NOTED...

Willie again and again your disagreement with how one understands scripture does NOT make it UNSCRIPTURAL, which is what this is about. You said Mary's belief was not based on scripture, I gave you scripture that shows Mary's belief IS based on scripture.

If Mary does not indicate Scripture for her beliefs, it is not MY assignment to find them so that I might gain her perspective....

As far as NOT basing them ON SCRIPTURE, it was my continuing request that she PROVIDE the "Scriptures" upon which she based her beliefs... she didnt do it, and still, despite your interventions on her behalf, YOU did not do it either...

As I have stated to many... I could care less what you believe... also, ...it is your right to believe whatever you do... and finally... It is NOT on my agenda to convince YOU of ANYTHING...

Let me put it this way bro, do you honestly think I would have agreed with Mary's answers to you if I did not see scriptural references in her answers?

It does not matter and never has mattered to me, ...that you and I "agree" about anything bro...  :laughing7:  Its nice when folks agree, but part of the placement of DISAGREEMENT in our scenarios has to do with GOD's PURPOSE for us...  I accept it... and suggest that you would doing yourself a favor, in gaining the insight that everyone is not going to agree with you Scott...

As to how Jesus takes away the sin of the world Willie I understand that differently then you do. But I am not going to go into it as I am trying to stay away from debates as it more time then not seems to lead to a fight and hard feelings and I am just plain tired of it.

He TAKES sin AWAY... that is plain and simple... HE saves that which IS LOST, by doing so... believe whatever you shall...  :dontknow:  If your vision of His work is any more complicated than that, then I believe it to be TOO COMPLICATED... SIMPLE as that...  :dontknow:

Let me address the above before moving on bro... with all due respect to you as my brother (and I DO respect both YOU and your knowledge of Scripture - you know that!)...

(1) I stand by what I said... this marks TWO EXAMPLES in which you note IMPLICATION, as opposed to QUOTING plainly that the Scripture verifies the implication... Your own definitions of "ACCEPT" and "CONFESS" differ with one another... Even in the HIGHLIGHTS you have done... CONFESS says "acknowledge openly and joyfully" and ACCEPT says "acknowledge that something is TRUE"... the word TRUE is absent in your defintion of CONFESS...

1. I can ACCEPT something WITHOUT CONFESSING that acceptance, nor by that ACCEPTANCE do I necessarily make an acknowledgement of TRUTH, ...for instance, I can "ACCEPT" a given candidate in an ELECTION, and vote for him, without necessarily acknowledging BY CONFESSION to others, that all he says or does is TRUE...

...AND

2. it is entirely possible to CONFESS something that one ...does NOT "ACCEPT"... I ACCEPT the citation that an officer gives me for speeding... but make NO CONFESSION of GUILT by that ACCEPTANCE...

The common belief of "accepting CHRIST" is the "born again" belief... meaning that because one uttered a few words at church (sinners prayer), that from that point on, ...its "all good"...and they can behave as do those who haven't CONFESSED or ACCEPTED... and still, ..."its all good"...

This is in part, what CHRIST was speaking of in Matt 7:21-23... these surely CONFESSED... for they called JESUS Lord... (1 Cor 12:3)

How MISLEADING is all this Scott? Many if not MOST Christians are Sunday believers, carrying with them and counting on their church attendance and eventual "CONFESSION"... as their "following of CHRIST"... believing their other 6 days of purposed and willful misbehavior are covered by this "fire insurance" the preacher sold them at the Sunday service!

(2) The definitions you give above for CONFESS and ACCEPT are NOT completely parallel... and ONE can live without the other present.

Again bro it comes down to the way you read things, but that does not mean it is not based on scripture just because you do not agree with it.

:laughing7:  You did not address what I said... and besides, does it not come down to "the way YOU read things" as well?  Please...

This is a STRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRETCH and you know it brother Scott... continue reading the passage bro, and you will arrive at Acts 2:47... which shows GOD ADDING these to His church, by His DOING, not via ...their "acceptance"...

The word "received" in this verse amounts to HEARING... not "acceptance"...

(Rom 10:17) FAITH cometh BY HEARING and HEARING, ...BY the WORD of GOD...

In other words HEARING which produces FAITH, is enabled TO the listener BY the WORD... the WORD opens the ears... and IN rushes FAITH...

We HEAR because GOD gives the EARS to HEAR His WORD (Rev 2:29 / 3:22) Not because WE decide to "accept it"...

"ACCEPTING" in ORTHODOXY is a decision MADE by the INDIVIDUAL and is PREACHED as such... I spent around 25 years in the Orthodox church and am well aware of their methods...

In Acts 2 ...it is GOD who ADDS to His church, ...the church or individuals of that church do NOT, ...ADD THEMSELVES... (Acts 2:47) ...which appears to be what you propose (adding themselves via their "receiving/acceptance") ...6 verses before...

Its not a STRRRRRRRRRRRETCH Willie it just the difference between how we both view scripture. You say it does not mean this or that and I say it does, and you can believe it is a STRRRRRRRETCH as is your right, but that does not make me veiled as you put it because for all you know I have the right of it and you are the one being veiled.

I have never said that I was the one REVEALED... I am searching daily for that REVELATION... I also have not said that you are VEILED either, so you argue upon FALSE basis...

I quoted that in the continuing CONTEXT (Acts 2:47), that it was GOD ADDING to the church, the "church" was not ADDING itself by ITS "receiving" (acceptance)...  :dontknow: 

You are very welcome to willfully refuse to see that GOD is the one who ADDS to His church... believing instead, that human "acceptance" accomplishes this...

FAITH (believing via HEARING) is the vehicle that GRACE saves us by, ...and IS also PROVIDED by GOD, we do not "muster it up" of ourselves, by our "acceptance"... (Eph 2:8-9)

Believe what you will...  :dontknow:

That's why I said even if Mary posted scripture it would not do any good because it would not matter what scripture she gave, you would just disagree with her interpretation of scripture, it's a no win situation bro.

Scott... you are quite hard headed aren't ya... I was asking Mary to quote basis for her beliefs... I was NOT requesting them that I might AGREE with them... YOU choose to look at this NEGATIVELY, I do NOT... I believe it IS a WIN-WIN situation, bro!

Discussion is... "I think this, what do you think"... "well I don't agree with that, here is what I think"... within DISCUSSION interaction which USES God's WORDS, ...GOD shall possibly UNVEIL to either or BOTH sides... However, if one side ABSTAINS... then the other, is left outside the benefit of what the "abstainer" might know and present...

You look at this (disagreement thing) as if it is in vain... I look at it as ALWAYS POSITIVE to discuss the WORD... For how can VANITY be found when the WORD of LOVE appears?

Many of the things I believe today (though they are yet in process of REVELATION by GOD of course), were in part assisted by those which I discussed (God using such as yourself, as a tool in REVELATION to me, and vice versa)... Those discussions might not always end in agreement... but later reflection (of something you or maybe Mary said) sometimes occurs as I continue to dig for God's TRUTH...

No ACTIVITY of the WORD of YHVH shall be in vain... For GOD stated such: (Is 55:11)...  If you and I are discussing the WORD and using it IN the DISCUSSION... that WORD is gone out to both of us, regardless of our individual and present observations of it...

"Not everything is as it seems bro"... Pneuma

If someone wishes to POSE beliefs... I believe those beliefs must be substanciated by the WORDS of GOD which in the end is OUR foundational WITNESS, ...our words standing alone are opinion only, whose essence is weakly implied, ...not garnished WITH POWER, GLORIFYING the One whose WORDS should be GLORIFIED...

I certainly agree with this statement Scott... and may I make the same SUGGESTION to you my dear brother...

Again bro it comes down to what YOU BELIEVE must be done, but again bro that ain't your call. You can believe people have to post scripture in order to substantiate their belief or its just their opinion all you like, but that does NOT mean their opinion is not based on scripture, which is what you said of Mary.

Of course it is "my call" Scott... and it is not "your call" to say that UNSUBSTANCIATION must be accepted by me...  :laughhand:

I am completely PROUD of the WORD of my Maker... and shall use it, and require it as I see fit in my experience... If you choose to abstain, you shall find yourself questioned by me... and it does not matter to me that you object to that questioning...

As far as noting OPINION without SCRIPTURAL support... that OPINION  remains standing SOLELY upon the sand of OPINION without it... and that IS my call...  :laughing7:

One cannot go into a courtroom, without SUPPORTING evidence to PROVE their case... those who enter into BIBLICAL discussions which willingly do not provide the EVIDENCE in the SCRIPTURE of their claims, are spitting into the wind as far as I am concerned... and that too, is MY CALL...  :laughing7:

Do you not believe the Spirit can show one about Christ without the use of scripture? If so why cannot Mary's words used without scripture be used of the Spirit to show forth Christ?

I do believe this to be so, for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD... however, a willful unwillingness to bear the WORD to me that that WORD is not worthy to be stood upon by the claimant...

Those who do NOT have the WORD, can be enlightened without it by GOD, but those who are chosen to BEAR it before the world, and do not do so... in my observation are ashamed of it...

Blessed are the peacemakers Scott... God bless you for you words to me...

This made me laugh bro, kind of funny to me to think others might see me as a peacemaker after all the battles I have been in over scripture on this board.

Made you LAUGH?   :omg:

UNBELIEVEABLE...

Enough with the "bro" pretentions Pneuma...

You are so about yourself, ...that you cannot even graciously recieve a kind, humble and thankful word from me???  ...  :thumbdown:

So when its all said and done Willie you can believe that Mary is veiled but you cannot state that what she believes is not based on scripture just because she did not use any.

God bless bro.

God bless WHO Pneuma?  Keep your new age blessing to yourself...

If you wish that GOD bless ME, ...then say so...

As far as saying Mary is VEILED, I can and WILL say so...

I will also say that YOU are VEILED as well Scott! 

And in HUMILITY, of which you are devoid, ...so too am I VEILED...

Wherever GOD has not REVEALED Himself to us, we are VEILED... for we ALL only KNOW only IN PART...

Her stand remains UNSUPPORTED, despite your efforts here to deflect that fact!   :heat: :sweat: :faint:

PeaCe...
...willieH  :mwink:

[willieH]

willieH: Hello Scott...  :sigh:

you quoted the following without elaborating...

I disagree brother for I do see that recorded in scripture.

1 John 5:14-17
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:  15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Do you know what the SIN unto DEATH is Scott?

What SIN would John be recommending we NOT pray for?

It is a SIN which GOD shall not find forgiveness for until RESURRECTION of Judgement, when ALL sin is dealt with...

Annanias and Sapphira LIED to the Holy Spirit... (Acts 5:1-10) and UNTO DEATH they both went...

To BLASPHEME the Holy Spirit is the SIN which should NOT be prayed for... Because JESUS stated that this particular SIN would NOT be forgiven in the Age in which He spoke, NOR... in the AGE to come...

To pray for one committing such a SIN would be blatantly disobedient to the WORDS of CHRIST... which in essence such a prayer would be blatant DISBELIEF of His WORDS...

Asking YHVH, that the blasphemer be forgiven... when CHRIST plainly said this WOULD NOT HAPPEN...

Does this mean that the BLASPHEMY of the Holy Spirit is the "LARGEST SIN"? ...no, it does not... If it was so, the WORD would say so, but it does NOT...

It is a SIN for which forgiveness shall be witheld unto the LAST...

For it is the one SIN which man can commit, ...that REVELATION of Who and What our GOD actually IS... would NEVER have been even considered by those with that REVELATION... and which those repenting of it, shall MOST GLORIFY God... as will ALL OTHERS, as they DO...

(Rev 21:4)  and GOD shall WIPE AWAY ...all TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE SORROW, nor CRYING, neither shall there be any more PAIN, for the former things ARE PASSED AWAY!

Ever wonder who these (THEIR) are Scott?

GOD is saving the BEST for last... because ALL of HEAVEN shall PRAISE YHVH, as He forgives even those who DISSED Him, and considered Him worthless...  LOVINGLY picking up each those despondent ones and PERSONALLY DRYING the tears from their eyes... to the cheer and praise of EVERY living being...

Wait & see Scott, if what I say is not so...

What do you think Pneuma?  What's your take? 

PeaCe...
...willieH  :mwink:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Your teaching below, is FEAR Scott... and it is not founded in PEACE which in FACT, the GOSPEL IS (Eph 6:15 / Rom 10:15)...

Nor does it represent the GOD of PEACE... (Heb 13:20 / Rom 15:33)...

Rather is steeped in VENGENCE that CHRIST plainly taught was no longer the WAY... (Matt 5:44 / Luke 6:28)

and is seen denying,

Jude 24  now unto Him that IS ABLE to KEEP YOU from FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy...

Why can He not keep THESE in Heb 10:26 from falling Scott?

Does this verse or the CONTEXT, ...SAY that any FELL? 

Or is it just a STRONG enforcment, which was given to the early PIONEERS of the GOSPEL of PEACE... which actually KNEW the (untainted) TRUTH, before it became diluted with the garbage of the ages...

Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS

What is the Knowledge of the TRUTH Scott?  Do you think that you have it?   :Chinscratch: 

The "truth" is, that the "KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH" is not known by ANYONE in totality, ...so that PORTION of TRUTH, of which we have no KNOWLEDGE of is easily COMPRIMISED by ALL of us miserably DUMB, and sinfully WEAK, ...sheep...

Shall GOD remove His "sacrifice" for SIN, from you, if you wilfully sin, while only having a PART of the knowledge of the TRUTH?  :mshock: Treading upon that which you do not even KNOW, and then holding you responsible for those mis-steps?

Give me a break!  If your view of Heb 10:26 is actually so... we are ALL in DEEP trouble... and GOD is NOT all that forgiving as He expects us to be... :rolleye:

Do you act IN FAITH at ALL TIMES Scott? (remember, whatsoever is not OF FAITH is SIN - Rom 14:23) 

If you are so brazen and arrogant as to make this claim, then what of 1 John 1:8, "brother"? ...

(1 John 1:8)  If we SAY we have NO SIN we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is not IN US...

And if we look upon Heb 10:26 as applicable to ALL,

What of Eph 5:26, which is speaking of the "Sanctified"? ...

(Eph 5:26)  That He might SANCTIFY and cleanse it with the washing of the water by the WORD, that He might present it [the "sanctified" church] to Himself, a glorious church, not having SPOT or WRINKLE, or ANY such thing, but that it should be Holy and without BLEMISH.

The original Twelve Apostles... KNEW the TRUTH FIRSTHAND, Scott... we, sorrowfully, have no such access to it as did they...

If we did, MIRACLES of MAGICAL and HOLY proportions would be flowing from the followers of GOD, but instead, we argue, fight, and often times show more HATE than LOVE to one another...

Since their "day"... we NOW have the tainted scrambled eggs of mistranslations, religious ambiguities, and purposed deceptions of Centuries, ...to search through... in hopes of even gaining even a tidbit of the TRUTH which was referred to  and KNOWN, in Heb 10:26!

The Apostles I believe, had the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH... and those FEW HEBREWS which actually had access to the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH, are ...LONG GONE, ...and now we have BENNY HINN, JOEL OSTEEN and JERRY FALWELL and many, many others in their place! :rolleye: 

Which mainly preach in order to lavish in the lap of MONETARY gain always begging for more money, that they might wallow in its pleasure... Instead of seeking the majesty of HUMILITY before the throne of HOLINESS and GRACE... by seeing to the needs of the Children instead of themselves...

You attempt to make "LEVELS of SIN" where there are none... and you here apply Scripture to those to which it was not written (gentiles)...

The GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS ->>> PERIOD!  Scott...

Why not present the LOVE of GOD, not the FEAR of Him?  ...and I (do not require, but only) suggest you consider casting away the "levels of sin" (which Mary equates to "Littler & Bigger")... knowing that JESUS died for ALL SIN, not just the "littler" ones...

Whose MIGHTY WORK, brings ALL home FOREVER, ...to the kind and LOVING Father of us ALL...

:bowing:  YHVH God...  :LoveH1:

PeaCe...
...willieH  :mwink: