Universal Reconcilliation =+= All The Proofs! And All The Questions!

[The_Angel_Of_Truth]

I would like to begin by saying that although I am only 14 years old, I spent a great deal of my life worrying about those who were not saved and would go to Hell, such as the one person I care about more than anybody....  :HeartThrob:

I have read this article and it has opened my eyes to Universal Reconcilliation, along with the fact that I feel that God was telling me that it was true and thinking about it more I see even more reasons UR could be true... The article I read is known as http://tentmaker.org/articles/hell_test.html and, if not for it I would have never known about UR.

After reading this my mind changed completely. My mood changed and I stayed up all night thinking seriously about UR and contemplating all the questions in my mind... I have many things that support UR and at the same time many things that deny UR. So I decided, I am going to write all my questions down here and if you can help me out at all then please, feel free to do so. I will also write down the major statements that support the fact of UR, some from my own mind, some from the article...

Here I will start with the statements I have proposed that SUPPORT UR........

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-(*)- If there was a Hell, and if people that were not saved began to enter Hells gates after Jesus ascended into Heaven then what about the people that were around the world when Jesus first ascended. People die every second, so does that mean that, if Hell existed, that one second after Jesus ascended into Heaven someone died and went to Hell? That would not be just and would make God seem like a major liar. And look at every second after that, more deaths around the world, more people going into Hell...  :Shoot:
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-(*)- Probably more than 50% of people on the earth have not even heard of God or Jesus and even if they have many of them that do not believe do not know much about Jesus. So if they heard that they would die and go to Hell one day out of random that would be like you hearing that Santa Claus was going to suck you up when you die and trap you in the North Pole for eternity as an elf. In other words... THEY WOULDNT BELIEVE IT! Although some of them do, not all of them say, Im not siding with God and choose to go to Hell... many just dont believe. It would not be very Just of God to punish them for simply not believing something theres not even much evidence supporting on the earth, expecially by sending them to a Hell for eternity. That would just be horrible.  :sigh:
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-(*)- People say that if you dont believe in God then your not his children, that you are sided with the Devil. Like I said before not everyone will even believe that it is true, much less say "Ok im the Devils." Also God created us, despite what we believe, we are all his creations... we are all his children. If your child suddenly ran to your arch nemesis and joined him that would not stop you from loving him, or stop him from being your child... much less to God who loves us all so eternally much. You would not just disown your child and stick him in a lake of fire, much less would God who is millions of times more merciful than all of us combined.
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-(*)- If ALL people will praise and worship God in the end as said many times in the Bible than Hell cannot exist. If people suffered in agony for all of existense how or why would they praise him? I wouldnt praise my father for throwing me in a pit of fire for eternity, I would hate and despise him! But it says ALL will praise him... You may be thinking, "That only applies to people in Heaven." Well ill take it back when you quote me one verse that says "All people in Heaven, not in Hell will praise him."
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-(*)- I have read a scary article a while back of people who had proof that Hell was in the center of the earth. I even heard an mp3 of people screaming from the core that was recorded by a driller. Well if this was true then what would happen when the earth is destroyed in the end? Hells supposed to be everlasting, not remade. The spirits of evil wont have "time off" from their torture until the new earth is created and even when it is, its supposed to be pure, so there cannot be a Hell in its core.
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-(*)- Here is one statement: If there is a hell where people will be punished for their sins forever, why didn't Jesus go there on our behalf and why isn't he there now? If this is the debt some must pay for their sins, then this debt hasn't been paid yet for anyone? Why doesn't everyone have to suffer this punishment?
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And as we all know, there are many more, too many to count. These are just basic things I thought of and decided to post in detail. Now, I also have many questions that are Anti-UR and, although I am beginning to believe in UR these questions are the only thing holding me back from truly believing.

Some of them I have come up with an answer for, or a Possible Answer that may be true but is not proven, just theorys, but ill still post them with the answer for those who wonder...

Here are the questions...

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Q: If Hell does not exist then what is the punishment for sin? It has to be punished somehow. Its not like Hitler will just be let in the Heavenly gates.

A: The wages of sin is  death,  nothing more nothing less. The lake of fire, hell, is just a correction not a punishment. God is a consuming fire. His ministers are a flame of fire. The works will be burned up not the person. (1 Cor. 3:13-16) Here in the lake of fire you will be baptized with fire.

PA (possible answer): There may be a temporary "Hell" that sinners go to for a short while, like a prision sentence, to atone for sins. Then they will be ""saved"" so to say and be allowed into Heaven. Another possibility is that there could be more to the afterlife than just Heaven. There could be an outside kingdom as well and, although saved people can go outside to the other land surrounding Heaven to see loved ones, only Saved people are actually allowed into Heaven. That way you can still see your friends and relatives but they wont suffer for eternity. They just wont get the best in the afterlife.  :thumbsup:

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Q: Whats the big hype for being saved if Hell is not true? What benefit would it get you besides knowing God...

A: N/A

PA: It could simply be a way for you to know your Lord or, if my PA for the last question is true, it could prevent you from having this temporary punishment and pain after you die.

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Q: What about the mp3 of Hell in the core of Earth? The proof that it was there? Was it fake? What does it mean?

A: N/A

PA: I have a detailed theory about this one... What if, Hell is real in a sence. "Hell" is in the center of the earth and people do go there when you die and are not saved. But, you are only there until God creates his new earth. It did say that evil would be unleashed back onto the earth for a short time. Maybe that simply means that everyone would be back together, good or bad, and soon all the evil would be obliterated and ALL people could finally live in peace, praising God like the scriptures say. Also if you want to hear this mp3 or see the proof here is the site.
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

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Q: If there is no Hell... Where is Satan.

A: I actually have the answer to this one... We all know that there are actually Demons on the earth, (Such as Jesus casting demons into swine) so they are obviously on earth, not in this "Hell." Ive also read, although not sure where, that Satan is reincarnated into a human form, although he still is actually Satan, on the earth. He is not actually in Hell... Remember, it says that there will be many antichrists, and also remember that, the Antichrist is the reincarnation of Satan during the tribulation... so when it says there will be many antichrists, its basicly saying, There will be many reincarnations of Satan.

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These are just a few of the questions I can think of at the time. I will update this regularly and PM me (dont post it, PM it) if you have anymore proofs or questions and I will look at them, study them, and (if its a question) possibly develop an answer or possible answer to it and then post it here...

So check back often. This thread can be used to discuss the questions and proofs, argue against them (as long as flame does not occur), and post answers to them... if you post a legitimate answer, that cannot be argued against, or even a possible answer, I will update the question with your answer or PA.

Have fun discussing... And helping to answer these questions and, hopefully soon many more...

God Bless...

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Angel_O_T


Good questions and I am thankful that God is drawing you to contemplate the true message of his Love.  I will take one question at a time as I do not have time to answer all in one sitting.

Q: If Hell does not exist then what is the punishment for sin? It has to be punished somehow. Its not like Hitler will just be let in the Heavenly gates.

A: N/A

The thing to remember is how people view hell in the first place.  A large number of people don't even know that the word Hell did not always mean eternal damnation.   Go to Dictionary.com and lookup the word hell and scroll clear down to  about the bottom and you will find the original definition was to "cover or conceal".   So, really,  when we say "Hell" does not exist, what maybe we should be saying is that "punishment is not eternal".   A lot of people perceive  when a universalist says hell does not exist that we are ignoring all the verses that contain the word.

I do not ignore them, I see a temporary state rather than an eternal one.  And because of the spiritual nature of the bible I do not see it the same as physical torture.  I do not believe it will be pleasant, but I know how I feel when I truly see where I have been wrong and God works on me to change.

People just don't seem to believe this can take place after we die, I believe it can.

[The_Angel_Of_Truth]

Simply looking into Gods eyes as he tells you your sins would be torture for me. o.O

But I understand what your saying. Ive had similar thoughts before, although they did involve physical pain. just not eternally. Also just having this, almighty, perfect God staring down at them telling them they were wrong would be enough to bring them to their knees crying and repenting...

[CHB]

Q: If Hell does not exist then what is the punishment for sin? It has to be punished somehow. Its not like Hitler will just be let in the Heavenly gates.

Hi,

I can't answer all of your questions now, don't have the time but I am sure they all will be answered by others.

The wages of sin is death, nothing more nothing less. The lake of fire, hell, is just a correction not a punishment. God is a consuming fire. His ministers are a flame of fire. The works will be burned up not the person. (1 Cor. 3:13-16) Here in the lake of fire you will be baptized with fire.

Here is one statement: If there is a hell where people will be punished for their sins forever, why didn't Jesus go there on our behalf and why isn't he there now? If this is the debt some must pay for their sins, then this debt hasn't been paid yet for anyone? Why doesn't everyone have to suffer this punishment?

CHB

[The_Angel_Of_Truth]

CHB I love your answer to the question. ^_^ And ill add your statement. Thanks.  :thumbsup:

[Average_Bear]

Here are the questions...

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Q: Whats the big hype for being saved if Hell is not true? What benefit would it get you besides knowing God...

A: N/A

PA: It could simply be a way for you to know your Lord or, if my PA for the last question is true, it could prevent you from having this temporary punishment and pain after you die.

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Q: What about the mp3 of Hell in the core of Earth? The proof that it was there? Was it fake? What does it mean?

A: N/A

PA: I have a detailed theory about this one... What if, Hell is real in a sence. "Hell" is in the center of the earth and people do go there when you die and are not saved. But, you are only there until God creates his new earth. It did say that evil would be unleashed back onto the earth for a short time. Maybe that simply means that everyone would be back together, good or bad, and soon all the evil would be obliterated and ALL people could finally live in peace, praising God like the scriptures say. Also if you want to hear this mp3 or see the proof here is the site.
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

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:goodpost:
Greetings AOT! First, are sure you're only 14? I rarely hear such wise questions and well thought out answers from someone of your age. Not only that, but you can spell!!!  :thumbsup: I'm very impressed. You want answers and I don't blame you. I want answers too. I urge you to be patient and wait upon the Lord - he will reveal truth to you at just the right time. There are some things we may never understand - but the admonition in scripture is to BELIEVE, not necessarily understand all things.

If you're looking for absolute scriptural proof for UR, you may be disappointed. But seriously, the case (that is, the evidence) for UR is much stronger than that of ET. Let me give one example. Scholars have searched the Old Testament for centuries, hoping to find some evidence of eternal torment in hell there. And guess what - it's just not there. That's right, thousands of years of human history and not so much as a whisper of warning of what awaited the ignorant masses after death. How could God omit such an important doctrine if it's true? Why would the scriptures focus on temporary things such as what kinds of foods you could or could not eat, when a fate a billion trillion times worse than anything that could happen on earth awaited most of humanity? :dontknow:

I'll take a crack at your questions above:
About being saved....
The majority view is that salvation means salvation from hell - a kind of "fire insurance". But the first time "save" is in the N.T. is in Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.
Salvation is from sin, not hell. No where in scripture do we find that salvation is from hell. Just think how many lives are destroyed by all kinds of sin. Wouldn't it be great to be free from sin? This is just a partial answer because salvation is much more than this.

Here is something to read about the recordings from hell:
www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.htm

What scared me more was some people's visions of hell. Many claim to have had visions of hell. But just as many claim to have been reicarnated, or been abducted by aliens, etc. I wouldn't put much faith in a vision or experience, even if it were my own.

Hope this helps.

[The_Angel_Of_Truth]

Here are the questions...

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Q: Whats the big hype for being saved if Hell is not true? What benefit would it get you besides knowing God...

A: N/A

PA: It could simply be a way for you to know your Lord or, if my PA for the last question is true, it could prevent you from having this temporary punishment and pain after you die.

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Q: What about the mp3 of Hell in the core of Earth? The proof that it was there? Was it fake? What does it mean?

A: N/A

PA: I have a detailed theory about this one... What if, Hell is real in a sence. "Hell" is in the center of the earth and people do go there when you die and are not saved. But, you are only there until God creates his new earth. It did say that evil would be unleashed back onto the earth for a short time. Maybe that simply means that everyone would be back together, good or bad, and soon all the evil would be obliterated and ALL people could finally live in peace, praising God like the scriptures say. Also if you want to hear this mp3 or see the proof here is the site.
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

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:goodpost:
Greetings AOT! First, are sure you're only 14? I rarely hear such wise questions and well thought out answers from someone of your age. Not only that, but you can spell!!!  :thumbsup: I'm very impressed. You want answers and I don't blame you. I want answers too. I urge you to be patient and wait upon the Lord - he will reveal truth to you at just the right time. There are some things we may never understand - but the admonition in scripture is to BELIEVE, not necessarily understand all things.

If you're looking for absolute scriptural proof for UR, you may be disappointed. But seriously, the case (that is, the evidence) for UR is much stronger than that of ET. Let me give one example. Scholars have searched the Old Testament for centuries, hoping to find some evidence of eternal torment in hell there. And guess what - it's just not there. That's right, thousands of years of human history and not so much as a whisper of warning of what awaited the ignorant masses after death. How could God omit such an important doctrine if it's true? Why would the scriptures focus on temporary things such as what kinds of foods you could or could not eat, when a fate a billion trillion times worse than anything that could happen on earth awaited most of humanity? :dontknow:

I'll take a crack at your questions above:
About being saved....
The majority view is that salvation means salvation from hell - a kind of "fire insurance". But the first time "save" is in the N.T. is in Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.
Salvation is from sin, not hell. No where in scripture do we find that salvation is from hell. Just think how many lives are destroyed by all kinds of sin. Wouldn't it be great to be free from sin? This is just a partial answer because salvation is much more than this.

Here is something to read about the recordings from hell:
www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.htm

What scared me more was some people's visions of hell. Many claim to have had visions of hell. But just as many claim to have been reicarnated, or been abducted by aliens, etc. I wouldn't put much faith in a vision or experience, even if it were my own.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info.  :bigGrin: God bless.

[SeekerSA]

Hi Arthur

Well I am one that does not believe in any afterlife punishment whatsoever.  IMO the concept of even a temporary hell appears to be very much in line with the RCC purgatory doctrine which like many of them are unscriptural.  I also believe it is a concept of "what if we are wrong?" when folk see a need for an afterlife punishment of sorts.  For some it is just too radical to dismiss hell altogether.

That said temporary is still better than an eternal BBQ.

Sheol/Hades and Gehenna are all found in this life in the grave and a now defunct rubbish dump in Jerusalem which now looks like this:

(http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellPhotos/hinnon8.JPG)

So unless they intend to relight the fires that went out and convert this park again into a crematorium, then I think that it is likely that there IS NO hell whatsoever.

There is of course the Lake of Fire which ironically comes from a book of symbols and allegory, written specifically to the seven churches and is ironic that the beast that comes from the sea head and horns and all is translated to mean the antichrist a "person" that will deceive the "very elect" etc. and also when we get to the LoF it is then taken literally.

Well that is a whooole long topic on its own.  IMO the LoF is found in this life and on this side of the grave.  We ARE NOT resurrected sin and all, we may still have our memories but that in itself will be hell enough for most when you finally meet the Lord face to face and realise how bad you really screwed up and in spite of that, He still welcomes you into the fold.

W/o going into too much detail here, on my blog, I have addressed all the supposed "hell teachings" of Jesus (8) including the teeth gnashers texts etc. and I share a bit more in detail about the meaning there.  Basically, all of the texts in context addressed the religious of the day and NOT sinners or what were termed sinners by the religious elect.

Go to my Blog and scroll down to the listings of all my posts and you will see the links to all the topics.

Blessings

[willieH]

willieH: Hi "AoT"... :hithere:

Welcome to TM!   :welcome:

wonder...

Here are the questions...

Q: If Hell does not exist then what is the punishment for sin? It has to be punished somehow. Its not like Hitler will just be let in the Heavenly gates.

A: The wages of sin is  death,  nothing more nothing less. The lake of fire, hell, is just a correction not a punishment. God is a consuming fire. His ministers are a flame of fire. The works will be burned up :myahoo: not the person. (1 Cor. 3:13-16) Here in the lake of fire you will be baptized with fire.

JESUS CHRIST paid the price for SIN Angel... no amount of "punishment" can rectify even one sin...  This lifetime IS the LAKE of FIRE, in which we suffer for SIN... the FLESH profits NOTHING...  :dontknow:

The FIRE in THIS LIFE consumes THIS LIFE... and the FLESH which each of us SINS in, DIES and returns to the dust...

As JESUS said:  Let him WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone... we are all UNWORTHY to cast a stone at a SINNER, as we are found to hold that undistinguished title, ourselves...  :winkgrin:

The observation of HITLER is an assumption that in some way, you consider your life a more worthy life than was his, based upon YOUR LIFE by comparision is it not?  Not picking on you, just trying to get you to see... we ALL deserve death, for even ONE SIN, sends CHRIST to the cross to redeem us!)

We are not to judge... If GOD WILLS to save HITLER (which HE DOES - 2 Peter 3:9)... that is entirely HIS BUSINESS, and we should REJOICE that the elasticity of His MERCY is able to "stretch" that far!   :myahoo:

We must remain thankful individually, for HIS MERCY toward our own unworthiness, and in that, leave HIM to deal with the unworthiness of everyone else... REJOICING that His Mercy is THAT GREAT!  (Rom 5:20) ...where SIN abounded, GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND! In EVERY CASE!

PA (possible answer): There may be a temporary "Hell" that sinners go to for a short while, like a prision sentence, to atone for sins. Then they will be ""saved"" so to say and be allowed into Heaven.

Why does there have to be a HELL at all, Angel? The only HELL which exists is the proper translation of the word HADES which is GRAVE... and yes... we ALL go on the tour!  :sigh:

The olde English word HEL which was translated in the KJV (from the words Gehenna, hades and tartarus) meant at the time of translation:  covered, concealed, unseen... it's definition further included: a celler or cool storage place where wine or vegetables were stored to PRESERVE them.

Another possibility is that there could be more to the afterlife than just Heaven.

There is no "afterlife" Angel... this is an UNBIBLICAL observation...

Upon the conclusion of this life, Our SPIRIT, ...RETURNS to where we emerged -- GOD...

In order to RETURN, one must have previously been there... We came FROM GOD... we RETURN to Him... in ETERNITY we ALWAYS are... TIME is a temporal "classroom" in which the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is gained, and in gaining that knowledge we become AS IS our Father and HIS Son... (Gen 3:22)

Without this "KNOWLEDGE" we are short of PERFECTION for GOD is PERFECT and He HAS this knowledge!  It is part of the process bro... GOD and HIS WORD are PERFECT (complete) and HAVE the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... without it, we are short of PERFECTION (incomplete)

There could be an outside kingdom as well and, although saved people can go outside to the other land surrounding Heaven to see loved ones, only Saved people are actually allowed into Heaven. That way you can still see your friends and relatives but they wont suffer for eternity. They just wont get the best in the afterlife.  :thumbsup:

This thinking is based upon the WORKS of man... If even ONE WORK in each life is found in CHRIST, then CHRIST is found IN that LIFE... and that LIFE is found IN CHRIST...   ALL works which are found WORTHY are DONE by CHRIST ...IN... the life, NOT by US...

GOD is after an EQUALITY and COMPLETE PERFECTION in His family... to be ALL in ALL... not some in ALL or ALL in some, ...ALL in ALL...

JESUS mission:  (Luke 19:10)  for the Son of man IS COME, to SEEK and to SAVE that which is LOST...

(btw the word translated, LOST in this verse is the Greek word, APOLLUMI (#G622 - strongs - look it up!) -- which means DESTROYED... that which is LOST, in God's eyes, is DESTROYED.  This SAME WORD is used in the (Luke 15) Parables of the LOST SON, the LOST SHEEP, and the LOST COIN... all were eventually, FOUND!

So how many do you percieve are LOST, Angel?   Did CHRIST accomplish His mission?  At it's end, did He not say "IT IS FINISHED"? 

If there is still more to do (such as you suggest above in blue), why did He say it was finished?

GOD is stated as ALL in ALL upon the completion of ALL THINGS subdued unto CHRIST... (1 Cor 15:28)

How can He be ALL in ALL, when some are on the OUTSIDE looking IN?  This theory shows GOD to be MORE in some than in others, by giving them an access to "Heaven" that others do not get...

Get to the rest of your questions & answers tomorrow, have a great night!   :thumbsup:

pEace...

...willieH  :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Q: Whats the big hype for being saved if Hell is not true? What benefit would it get you besides knowing God...

From a religion point of view, souls being saved increases revenue.  Unfortunatly I am not making a joke.

From a scriptural point of view, salvation is actually the perception given to us for the process and journey we are on back to God.

In the Concordant Literal Version in Genesis it speaks of God  "Creating" man in his image, implying that he is not done yet.

In 1 Timothy, we can find the verse talking about all mankind being saved, but along with that we will learn the knowledge of Truth.

In Isaiah we find that all the inhabitants of the earth will learn righteousness.

Salvation is a process of learning and instruction from the very beginning,  sadly religion has separated mankind into the have's and have not's rather than seeing that every person has a purpose no matter how terrible they might be and our actions through choice or otherwise can do nothing to change  the Love God has for us all.

That is not to say we won't progress from a point of unbelief to belief, but we  do so by Gods will (John 6:44) rather than something we can determine for ourselves.  It appears we make the choice of our own free will, but, if the carnal mind is emnity towards God, then on our own we are incapable of making the choice to serve God.

[Craig]

From a religion point of view, souls being saved increases revenue.  Unfortunatly I am not making a joke.

2 Peter 2:1-3
And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction, and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of, and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber.

Not there is anything wrong with giving, and supporting a ministry. Many modern day church exists for the sole purpose to make you their merchandise. They lure you in with cunning and creative charismatics and with doctrines of fear and dependency in order to squeeze every last penny from you and your bank account. You have become merchandise in the eyes of the church, and each church tries to lure you into their lair in order that they may take advantage of your finances. If you don't give,  you are cursed by the church; if you don't give, you are made out to be a greedy person.

It is no joke.

[The_Angel_Of_Truth]

Holy crap WillehH! That... was... good. o.O

But let me ask this question then. We will all be eventually drawn back into our God, what exactly does that mean? Will he be inside us or us inside him... will we be in Heaven, or in God...

And Seeker...

There has to be some punishment. Your basically saying I could go get an MP5 Machine gun and go on a killing spree, set terrorist bombs, torture, and possibly take thousands of lives right now that could have amounted to something amazing in the future and the worst I could suffer is the electric chair...

That cant be right... I know God forgives... but thats just mad. There has to be some kind of temperal punishment for the sin...

[Paul Hazelwood]

But let me ask this question then. We will all be eventually drawn back into our God, what exactly does that mean? Will he be inside us or us inside him... will we be in Heaven, or in God...

I'm not sure we have a physical example that is adequate to explain.  But, scripture is indeed intriguing.

Jn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


Ps 82:6 . I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.


Being Gods,  subject to a Spirit that is inherantly  "LOVE"  perfected as a part of that Spirit in total communion and purpose.

Just amazing to think about.

[SeekerSA]

And Seeker...

There has to be some punishment. Your basically saying I could go get an MP5 Machine gun and go on a killing spree, set terrorist bombs, torture, and possibly take thousands of lives right now that could have amounted to something amazing in the future and the worst I could suffer is the electric chair...

That cant be right... I know God forgives... but thats just mad. There has to be some kind of temperal punishment for the sin...

Well when you find scripture that shows that we have to go though a temporal punishment of any sorts, I would be interested to read that.

Look at what you said:

..the worst I could suffer is the electric chair...

Then you want some "afterlife" punishment too and then this kinda negates the Jesus sacrifice bit too as then He did not cover everything then?  (btw I am not a believer in substitution atonement - deep topic and study - later)

Well if you did what you implied I said you could do (which I didn't) you suffer the consequences in this life.

See with this perspective you haul out a sin list and also grade sins where in the eyes of God, sin is sin.  See it is the church system that introduced a sin list and a grading system.

Well - when you think about it, then it make salvation dependant on us and that is not so.

Read my blog and then ask questions again.

Blessings

[The_Angel_Of_Truth]

And Seeker...

There has to be some punishment. Your basically saying I could go get an MP5 Machine gun and go on a killing spree, set terrorist bombs, torture, and possibly take thousands of lives right now that could have amounted to something amazing in the future and the worst I could suffer is the electric chair...

That cant be right... I know God forgives... but thats just mad. There has to be some kind of temperal punishment for the sin...

Well when you find scripture that shows that we have to go though a temporal punishment of any sorts, I would be interested to read that.

Look at what you said:

..the worst I could suffer is the electric chair...

Then you want some "afterlife" punishment too and then this kinda negates the Jesus sacrifice bit too as then He did not cover everything then?  (btw I am not a believer in substitution atonement - deep topic and study - later)

Well if you did what you implied I said you could do (which I didn't) you suffer the consequences in this life.

See with this perspective you haul out a sin list and also grade sins where in the eyes of God, sin is sin.  See it is the church system that introduced a sin list and a grading system.

Well - when you think about it, then it make salvation dependant on us and that is not so.

Read my blog and then ask questions again.

Blessings

I have no more to say. You've made a good point. The wages of sin, is death. No more, no less... and everyone sins, and everyone dies...

[Craig]

But let me ask this question then. We will all be eventually drawn back into our God, what exactly does that mean? Will he be inside us or us inside him... will we be in Heaven, or in God...

I'm not sure we have a physical example that is adequate to explain.  But, scripture is indeed intriguing.

Jn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


Ps 82:6 . I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.


Being Gods,  subject to a Spirit that is inherantly  "LOVE"  perfected as a part of that Spirit in total communion and purpose.

Just amazing to think about.

I would have to disagree with you.

There is at no time, will we ever be God or Gods. All such teaching, in my opinion, is the lie the serpent told Adam and Eve. Look VERY closely to the words of Jesus, and recognize He did not say 'the Law', or 'God's Law' but 'your law'.

Look again if you wish:

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods'?

What we will be, is like Him. We are beings capable of great love, and that is Who God is. We ourselves are not gods. If you read the context of psalms 82:6, the word 'gods' is used in jest to reveal the arrogant hearts of men who continue to believe they are God.

Throughout Scripture, you find men and women, kings and queens, who have said in their hearts, "I shall be like God", but to all who have desired such position or status, have been cast down from heaven continually in order that they may be humbled and recognize they are just men.

Psalms 82:6-7 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler."

It is a very deceptive doctrine to believe that we were once gods, or will ascend as gods. It is not a subject that should be treated lightly either. Things are not always as they seem on the surface. Jesus at no time ever attributed anywhere that there was truth in the words, 'You are gods'.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Just because a statement in the bible can be taken and made into something it is not, does not mean it is not true and should be discarded.   
The hesitance to think we are Gods comes from religion brow beating society to not believe that there is any form of truth in certain types of beliefs.

We learn to equate certain words and phrases such as ascension, or becoming Gods to cult and newage belief systems and that cannot possibly be what scripture says for us in the context of Gods kingdom rather than mans need for power. 

There is a hint of truth in those beliefs, the difference is the power behind the events.  Man or God?

I have no problem with understanding whats on the surface isn't as it appears.   God is not a literal fire, but the underlying spiritual  or metaphorical meaning will not change the words.

The pharasees were trying to get one up on Jesus by accusing him of saying he was a God among men.  Jesus responce says what is written in the Law that they are Gods themselves.  He did this to point out to them that if they adhere to the law as they did then they were guilty of the same thing.  The point was that there was nothing to be guilty of in that regaurd.

The verse that tells us we will die like mere men is showing the humbling place we will be and to not elevate the concept of being Gods above what it actually is, nor is it possible even if we try.

Jesus said that it is not wrong to see him as equal to the Father, we have no problem saying Jesus is a God, but scripture shows who Jesus is subject to nevertheless. 

[Craig]

I agree you are passionate about this, so it is sensitive to you.

The question I ask is, who is discarding it, Paul?

So I ask you, please consider what I present to you here.

When  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods'? (John 10:34)

Why did He say, 'your' law and not 'God's Law'?

John 19:7
The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."

Did you not know? Not all laws are God's laws, in fact, most of the laws the Jews had were not laws of God at all. Like the Apostle Paul wrote:

Colossians 2:20-23
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Paul even called these things, "The law of our fathers", expressing that he had a zeal for God but no knowledge.

We learn to equate certain words and phrases such as ascension, or becoming Gods to cult and newage belief systems and that cannot possibly be what scripture says for us in the context of Gods kingdom rather than mans need for power.

I respectfully disagree. That is a strawman argument and has no relevance to this discussion. I did not equate certain words or phrases to new age or cult belief systems, and you have yet to demonstrate Scripture even says this. The two Scriptures you have used, have been disqualified based on context and subtext concerning the audience it was addressing.

I find no promise that you will be, or ever be God. There is no promise in Scripture for this, nor has it ever been hinted or declared.

Jesus responce says what is written in the Law that they are Gods themselves.

No, his response was, "It is written in YOUR law, that you are gods.", answering the fools according to their folly.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.

It is a very deceptive doctrine to believe that we were once gods, or will ascend as gods. It is not a subject that should be treated lightly either. Things are not always as they seem on the surface. Jesus at no time ever attributed anywhere that there was truth in the words, 'You are gods'.

Jesus said that it is not wrong to see him as equal to the Father, we have no problem saying Jesus is a God, but scripture shows who Jesus is subject to nevertheless.

Once again, this has nothing to do with being 'God', yourself. You have mixed two different concepts believing them to be one and the same. Jesus's defense, was to the Jews who had their own laws and according to those laws, they became blind to who Jesus was.

Jesus had a right to his defense, because unlike any one of us, He was and is God.

It would be the difference like you running around declaring yourself to be the "President of the United States", and George Bush declaring himself "President of the United States". Who is the President of the United States? Most certainly not you, so you cannot use that defense.

The Jews were blind, the Pharisees were blind, they knew nothing because many their laws were not God's laws, but laws of men. That is why they cannot know anything as long as Moses is read.

This is my opinion, and you don't have to agree with it. I find the concept that we are "God" no where in Scripture other than in the words of the devil himself and hence why I am strong in my opposition to the message that says we are.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi SotW,

First ,I have my point of view based on how I see scripture and I figure you do as well.  I don't consider it to be stubborn or a refusal to consider simply because I don't agree with my opponent after the first reply.

Secondly, with that said, I do not intend to get personal as a means to fortify my position and apologize if my comments seemed to do so.

When  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods'? (John 10:34)
Why did He say, 'your' law and not 'God's Law'?

The pharasees defined their righteousness by adherance to Law, so it was very personal to them. As a group of people it was theirs in the same way Salvation is attributed to us in this passage.

Philippians 2:12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,


Does that mean salvation is of men and not of God since it is our own?


The specific passage in psalms is not known to be of men and abolished by Jesus.

Jesus made his point stronger by getting personal.  That is my answer, so then why did not Jesus say Gods law in this verse? 

Matthew 5:17  "You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

I respectfully disagree. That is a strawman argument and has no relevance to this discussion.

I believe the pattern of thought I expressed is very relevant, you wrote

It is a very deceptive doctrine to believe that we were once gods, or will ascend as gods. It is not a subject that should be treated lightly either.

You call it doctrine, so what beliefs or organizations promote this "doctrine"?   Sure isn't the Southern Baptists

I find no promise that you will be, or ever be God. There is no promise in Scripture for this, nor has it ever been hinted or declared.

It was declared in psalms and your context and subcontext is of your own opinion not an air tight scriptural rebuttle.


Considering the spiritual nature of our existance,  If Jesus is Gods Son and we are his children, then what else would our spiritual destiny be if Jesus also will be subject to the Father as we will be? 

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



Just how would you define this spiritual cohesion?

Jn 14:20 In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.



Galatians 4:6-7 Now, seeing that you are sons, God delegates the spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying  "Abba! Father!"
"So that you are not longer a slave, but a son. Now if a son, an enjoyer also of an allotment from God, through Christ."


Just who are these Gods?

Ps 82:1 . <<A Psalm of Asaph.>> God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Once again, this has nothing to do with being 'God', yourself. You have mixed two different concepts believing them to be one and the same.

What I did NOT say is that we would be God.  We will be equal as Gods in the same way Jesus was.  We will always be subject to God the father,  but humanity is the Sons and Daughters of God, so what else could we be?

[Craig]

I believe you cannot use 'Children of God' as evidence we are God. We are indeed His offspring, but that does not make us God. How do you know Jesus was quoting Psalms? There were dozens of other books which were considered the law, in the eyes of the Jews. Jesus knew them all. Though, Psalms 82:6-7 says, "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." It doesn't mean what you think it means. Once again, 'you are "gods"' is not a declaration of the Truth that they are "God", but rather a re-affirmation that they are indeed 'gods', not God. Let me reaffirm what I just said, they are not 'God', they are 'gods'. Jesus used this Scripture to answer the foolish Jews in their own folly. They cannot stone a man who declares himself 'God', if they have in their own law, that they are called, 'gods'.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Did you miss this? Regardless if we are called 'gods' or 'lords', we are not God or Lord because there is but one God and Lord. I believe you absolutely made a leap in reasoning which is not found anywhere in Scripture, we have not, and will not be God. There is none like Him.

Let me go back to my example: Let us say: Sam Nationalist is the President.

There is but one President of the United States. If the president of the United States, Sam Nationalist, says, "I am the President" his words are true. A rally of American Lawyers accuse Sam Nationalist of treason, simply because he said he was President. Remember what the accusation is, he is being accused of treason, because he calls himself President. So Sam, knowing these men are lawyers, points out that the laws of America state a person can be president of anything. So indeed, anyone is a president and so if those Lawyers actually continue to accused Sam Nationalist of treason for his declaration of President, then even the presidents of their law firms are guilty of treason. Though there are many presidents of many things, and there is only one President. They cannot declare him a traitor guilty of treason simply on the declaration of his presidency. In all this, however, Same Nationalist continues and always has been, the President.

So now back to Jesus. They were angry that He called himself the Son of God, and so picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy. Yet, Scripture states they themselves are declared, 'children of God'. They could not kill him or accuse him of blasphemy for the declaration of being called a 'Son of God', without incriminating themselves.

You need to know law, and how the law works. Jesus knew it better than any of them. Jesus is not a 'child of God', but the 'Son of God', the promised Messiah, God manifest. So are you ready? Jesus was talking about the law, and therefore answered according to the law. He was not affirming they too were "God" or the "Son of God", he was befuddling them.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.

1 Timothy 1:7
They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I believe you cannot use 'Children of God' as evidence we are God.

Regardless if we are called 'gods' or 'lords', we are not God or Lord because there is but one God and Lord. I believe you absolutely made a leap in reasoning which is not found anywhere in Scripture, we have not, and will not be God. There is none like Him.

I never said we would be God.   the closest I have come to that is stating that we will be equal in the same manner that Jesus is equal to his father while still being subject to the father.   

[Craig]

I am not at all offended, and I am sorry if I offended. I do get rather hard-lined and need to kick back myself a bit.

I never said we would be God.

Did you not say?

Being Gods,  subject to a Spirit that is inherantly  "LOVE"  perfected as a part of that Spirit in total communion and purpose.
Just amazing to think about.

Then perhaps we have a misunderstanding, because you did say we are 'Gods', with "G" not "g" and then used some reasoning that I objected because I believe it was New Age or cultic. We are not 'Gods' subject to a Spirit. We are 'gods' subject to 'God', the God of gods. Yet, only 'gods' because He said so, no other reasons. If that is what you meant, then I admit I jumped the gun in my understanding of what you said.

Next.

the closest I have come to that is stating that we will be equal in the same manner that Jesus is equal to his father while still being subject to the father.   

Also I find Scripture says that we are not equal to God, it says we are in Jesus Christ, who is not afraid to call us brothers. Yet, how does that equate to being equal to the Father in the same manner as Jesus was to the Father? Is not all things done through and in Jesus Christ? Do you believe that we will be the Christ? Do you believe like Jesus, that you have the authority to lay down your life and take it back up again? Does not Scripture say, Christ did not consider equality with God was something to be grasped, so being the Nature God, lowered himself and took on the form of a man so that by His obedience He conquered all things and made the Head of all things? Did not Scripture say there is only but One God, and One Lord? So what do you mean by " the closest I have come to that is stating that we will be equal in the same manner that Jesus is equal to his father while still being subject to the father."?

You don't have to answer any of this, because I can chalk this up to misunderstanding on my part. Yet, if it is not, it is there to consider.

[CHB]

Hi Paul,

I believe you are right when you say that we WILL BE GOD'S. If we are children of God, of course we will be gods. We will have our Father's name. (Eph.3:15) "Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named".

Angels are referred to as gods, so is Satan and so are we, because we all are of God.

CHB

[Craig]

The word "gods" in Hebrew is a title, in the same way king, lord, master, is used. It is not because we are all of God.  There is more to studying Scripture, than studying Scripture, one has to study the culture, the context, the references, grammar, figure of speeches, and other details which many do not have time for. Even then, it must be understood also by the spirit in which it was given. There yet has been a case which I have witnessed, which presents itself without fallacy, or error, which asserts that we are God or Gods.

Neither have I seen a proper argument in favor that "God" is a family name like "Smith" or "Cooper" which is passed down to His Children. The Scripture actually says, the whole family in heaven and earth derives their name from the Father. What is His Name? Ephesians continues and tells us, that we are through Christ, rooted and established by Love. What is the Name above all names, in which every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, the very same Name we also are called? Jesus Christ, and how do we know we are His Disciples? By our Love.

Unless this is a misunderstanding. From the presupposition that we are God (or multiples of God) brings no witness by my spirit by His Spirit, nor does it find itself in reason in the road maps provided to us by His Spirit..

[willieH]

willieH: Hi AoT... :hithere:

Here is a continuation of my answer to you...  :reachout:

Q: Whats the big hype for being saved if Hell is not true? What benefit would it get you besides knowing God...

A: N/A

:omg:   BESIDES?   :omg:

What greater benefit can possibly BE, than a deeper and deeper and DEEPEST, relationship with our Creator?  Our GOD, Angel?  :cloud9:

We have been falsely taught by the apostate "church" that "HELL" exists... but HELL, is not what we are SAVED from my friend... We are redeemed from our SIN... which causes DEATH...

We are SAVED OUT of DEATH (caused by SIN/self-exaltation), ...to LIFE (Redemption/self-less exaltation of GOD)...

"HELL", ...is (1) irrelevant and (2) mythical...  :dontknow:  Born in the defiled regions of PAGANISM... and shared by the "church", which claims this LIE to be a part of truth which is HOLY...  :thumbdown:

PA: It could simply be a way for you to know your Lord or, if my PA for the last question is true, it could prevent you from having this temporary punishment and pain after you die.

There is no reason for PUNISHMENT temporary or otherwise...

That which is found to be PUNISHMENT is a PUNITIVE action and a recompense (getting "even"), retaliation... the NATURAL view of an "eye for an eye"... which JESUS taught to be short of SPIRITUAL action... as He taught, to FORGIVE, and to "turn the other cheek", and to "give your cloak, as well as your coat"...etc. 

He taught in speech and action, to refrain from the NATURAL approach to MISBEHAVIOR, which is to "GET EVEN"...  :dontknow:

PUNISHMENT is NOT something that LOVE does.  In this life GOD has given humans  positions of Parenthood, Grandparenthood, teachers, etc... CORRECTION is what proceeds from these positions when LOVE for the child, is contained within the motive as these deal with the child's MISBEHAVIOR.

When PUNISHMENT is done by any of the above noted positional entities with RECOMPENSE and VENGENCE for misdeeds done by child, we quickly see others STAND AGAINST such treatment!

SOCIETY demands that position be REMOVED from that person... CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES will REMOVE the child and bring ACTION against the Parent, Grandparent, or teacher which ABUSES his/her position over the child...

Even in a PRISON, humane treatment is REQUIRED of the Overseers...  :dontknow:

LOVE seeks to CORRECT, and redirect misbehavior onto proper pathways, rather than BEAT, TORMENT or PUNISH the misbehaved, into submission.

Correction is found to be the method of GOD (who is LOVE), by exposing the DARKNESS ...WITHIN us --- TO us, by the LIGHT of JESUS CHRIST...  which produces brokenness in us, ...and through which GOD redeems in the bowing of the knee and confession of the tongue...  :bgdance:

A VICTORY of LOVE over negativity... not BULLYING in "divine proportions" as the "church" proposes with either "HELL" or annhilation... The 2 choices she teaches the World that GOD brings to the table of MISBEHAVIOR...  :sigh: :thumbdown:



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Q: What about the mp3 of Hell in the core of Earth? The proof that it was there? Was it fake? What does it mean?

An "mp3" of "HELL"?  :pointlaugh:  Don't get me wrong brother, I'm not laughing at YOU, ...I'm laughing at this proposition and that anyone would believe such B-S!  As if a so-called, SPIRITUAL PLACE which is called "HELL" can be verified in PHYSICAL terms such as an mp3...  :laughing7:

NEXT they will propose that you can buy LOVE in 12oz cans...  :laugh:  ...or that no more than 2 million angels can at one time, be found standing on the head of a pin!   :LH:  Please! :rolleye:

What this proposition actually "means", is that "science" (which BACKS the theory of evolution), persists in further OUTRAGEOUS fallacies...

It has no such PROOF that it is there!  Have you seen or WITNESSED their "proof"?  Please don't say that PHOTOGRAPHS can be proof (as if they have gone to the CENTER of the earth and "photographed it"),  :laughing7:

And if they DID propose this to be RELIABLE EVIDENCE of "Hell", ...ALL the UFO crowd shall insist their PROOF be so recognized as SOLID verification! (and RIGHTLY so!)

And even if they could produce PHYSICAL evidence (which they cannot), it does not VERIFY ...SPIRITUAL... things...

A: N/A

PA: I have a detailed theory about this one... What if, Hell is real in a sence. "Hell" is in the center of the earth and people do go there when you die and are not saved. But, you are only there until God creates his new earth. It did say that evil would be unleashed back onto the earth for a short time. Maybe that simply means that everyone would be back together, good or bad, and soon all the evil would be obliterated and ALL people could finally live in peace, praising God like the scriptures say. Also if you want to hear this mp3 or see the proof here is the site.
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

:laughing7:  You really believe this Angel?  Even consider it possible?  :mshock:

Anyone can say anything... but this site is as foolish and UNPROVEN a gathering of PROPAGANDA as I have ever seen... Easily refuted... a waste of time... and certainly the only motive established in this site is to INSTILL FEAR... The WORD of GOD says this about THAT:

(1 John  4:14) there is NO FEAR in LOVE; but PERFECT LOVE casteth OUT FEAR because FEAR hath TORMENT.  He that FEARETH is NOT MADE PERFECT in LOVE

You have quite the "imagination" there dear brother... No offense my friend, but this "PA" simply does not make any sense... Why would GOD save some, then torture others for a time, then SAVE them?  It makes more logical sense that HE gathers ALL together at ONE MOMENT, in REDEMPTION, not broken up in scattered and interrupted portions...

Btw... GOD does not allow verification Himself to be done in PHYSICAL terms... which is WHY neither "Ark" has ever been found (either Noah's or "of the covenant").

This is evident in the definition of FAITH:  The SUBSTANCE (verification) of THINGS UNSEEN (not physical) (Heb 11:1)



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Q: If there is no Hell... Where is Satan.

It is an important thing to first DEFINE "satan"... there are many which believe this to be some IMMENSELY and POWERFUL EVIL being... in which is given the attributes of GOD, one of which is OMNIPRESENCE, for it is believed that "satan" TEMPTS us all...

Let it be known to you that I DO NOT embrace this.  The Hebrew word "satan" means adversary... I believe this was created within the makeup of man, and is found within the "ability" or "power" given man, to choose to DISOBEY the command of GOD... which, when it comes down to it, IS what EVIL ...IS...

To answer your question as to "where" satan ...IS...  IT is Within the DESPARATELY WICKED, ...Heart of Man (Jer 17:9) 

We (men) are the TEMPLE of the HOLY SPIRIT... (1 Cor 3:16) As ADVERSITY dwells on the throne (will) of our hearts, denotes SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS in HIGH PLACES (within the Hearts of Men, which are rightly the THRONE of GOD) (Eph 6:12)

A: I actually have the answer to this one... We all know that there are actually Demons on the earth, (Such as Jesus casting demons into swine) so they are obviously on earth, not in this "Hell."

There is NO RECORD that any such DEMONS were created, nor assigned to torment men. (if you have such Scripture references, I would LOVE to see them, thanks!) 

That CHRIST cast out "demons" into swine does not constitute them to be Spirit BEINGS...

Ive also read, although not sure where, that Satan is reincarnated into a human form, although he still is actually Satan, on the earth. He is not actually in Hell... Remember, it says that there will be many antichrists, and also remember that, the Antichrist is the reincarnation of Satan during the tribulation... so when it says there will be many antichrists, its basicly saying, There will be many reincarnations of Satan.

What (I believe) your memory is possibly recalling is the Scripture which states:

(2 Cor 11:14)  And no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

There are a few things to consider in the observation of this verse:

(1) The word "satan" is NOT a proper noun.
(2) All words which refer with pronouns such as he,she,himself, etc... are inserted by the translators
(3) the word angel in this verse is Aggelos which means MESSENGER and does NOT connotate in definition a SPIRIT being, although it can refer to SPIRIT beings.

This verse actually means that ADVERSITY or the ADVERSARY is transformed into a MESSENGER of LIGHT... that being the FALSE teachings of the CHURCH which takes those LIES to the WORLD, witnessing them to be TRUTH (light).

Many, even MOST of the teachings of the Christian church in her many varieties are LIES such as: 

(1) The trinity, (2) rapture,  (3) salvation of few, (4) hell, (5) free will, (6) millenium, (7) sinners prayer, (8) easter, (9) christmas, (10) satan as a fallen angel,(11) eternal separation from God, (12) Sunday worship, (13) 2nd coming of CHRIST, (14) making a "decision" for CHRIST, (15) spiritual Israel, (16) Friday crucifixtion--Sunday resurrection, (17) leading souls to CHRIST...

NONE of these are FOUND in the WORD of GOD... but ALL of which are freely taught in Christianity as TRUTH... and MOST are found in their various DOCTRINAL statements...  :thumbdown:

So the church is ADVERSE to TRUTH, and found to "TRANSFORM" itself, naming ITSELF a MESSENGER of "LIGHT"... when she is found to be "satan" in the end... dealt with distaste BY CHRIST:

(Matt 7:21-22)  Not every one that saith unto Me, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the WILL of My Father which is in heaven... MANY will say to Me in that day, LORD LORD, have we not prophesied [taught] in Thy NAME?  and in Thy NAME, have cast out devils? and in Thy NAME done many wonderful WORKS?

Notice the problem enlarged which is overlooked by the church...  That being:  Did not ...WE... do "this", and do "that"!  Taking credit for themselves, instead of GIVING it to CHRIST...

Their words should have been something like:  "Did not YOU do many wonderful WORKS THROUGH us?"   ...thereby giving the GLORY ...DUE... those wonderful WORKS to the ONE who ...ACTUALLY DID THEM!

This does not negate their SALVATION... for the Scripture cannot be broken, and it states that EVERYONE which CALLS upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved (Rom 10:13)

These which ERR in Matt 7:21-22 are definitely BELIEVERS, for they called Him LORD, which can only be done BY the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT (1 Cor 12:3)  ...but even the followers and believers of CHRIST for the MOST PART shall ERR (as indicated in the verses as MANY)... and the number which shall find the TRUTH shall be FEW...



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These are just a few of the questions I can think of at the time. I will update this regularly and PM me (dont post it, PM it) if you have anymore proofs or questions and I will look at them, study them, and (if its a question) possibly develop an answer or possible answer to it and then post it here...

So check back often. This thread can be used to discuss the questions and proofs, argue against them (as long as flame does not occur), and post answers to them... if you post a legitimate answer, that cannot be argued against, or even a possible answer, I will update the question with your answer or PA.

Have fun discussing... And helping to answer these questions and, hopefully soon many more...

God Bless...

I appreciate anyone who is searching for TRUTH... lay yourself before the throne of GOD, my new friend Angel... and search with ALL your HEART...

Do NOT just take another's "word" (including mine) for truth, ...open the WORD and compare what is claimed by others, to that WORD.

Get a concordance with a Greek--Hebrew dictionary... and DAILY, go to work!

pEace...
...willieH  :icon_king: