2-way chat with God: good Father vs. neverending torture

[Andrew]

Posted by David Ford

"Akathist for the Repose of the Departed"
https://akroasis.org/texts-and-resources/akathists-and-canons/akathist-for-the-respose-of-the-departed/
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Akathists-Saviour-Mother-Various/dp/0884650596/
Kontakion 6.
Terrible is the darkness of a soul separated from God, the torments of conscience, the gnashing of teeth, the unquenchable fire and the undying worm.  I tremble at such a fate and, as for myself, I pray:  O ye that suffer in hades, may our song descend upon you as a refreshing dew:  Alleluia!
Ikos 6.
Thy light, O Christ our God, hath shone upon those that sit in darkness and the shadow of death, and those in hades, who are not mindful of Thee; having descended into the nethermost parts of the earth, do Thou bring out into joy those who have been separated from Thee by sin, but who have not renounced Thee; O Lord, Thy children suffer, forgive them; for they have sinned against Heaven and before Thee, immeasurably serious are their sins, but also infinite is Thy mercy.  Visit the bitter destitution of souls far removed from Thee; O Lord, have mercy on those who hated the truth out of ignorance, let Thy love be to them not a burning fire, but the cool delight of Paradise.


Hi DAVID, Is this related to the Catholic tradition- do you know the back story on "akathist" or maybe what tradition is from - just curious.

[DavidFord]

Is this related to the Catholic tradition- do you know the back story on "akathist" or maybe what tradition is from - just curious.

It's from the Orthodox tradition.  Many Orthodox view Catholics the way many Catholics view Protestants:  as people who broke away from the truest, most-complete faith.
As far as I can tell, Catholics pray for those in 'purgatory,' and do prayers for the dead (who might or might not be in:  purgatory; heaven), but as far as I know, don't pray for those in hell (though they'd be quick to say, 'I have no idea if X is or isn't in hell; who knows, maybe he repented at the last moment and entered purgatory').

Sometimes when people die, they don't get brought to one of the heavenly realms, nor to one of the hellish realms, but instead continue to loiter around earth.  Saying prayers for those dead people can help them move on to where they're supposed to next go.

_The Healing of Families: How To Pray Effectively for Those Stubborn Personal and Familial Problems_ by Yozefu B. Ssemakula
https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Families-Effectively-Stubborn-Personal/dp/0984886214/
_A Guide To Healing the Family Tree_ by Kenneth McAll
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Healing-Family-Tree/dp/1882972643/
_Regions of Captivity_ by Ana Mendez Ferrell
https://www.amazon.com/Regions-Captivity-Ana-Mendez-Ferrell/dp/1933163224/

[GodIsLove]

A Catholic prayer:

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fire of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy.

Many people speak of Catholics without having been one. I've been catholic most of my life. Currently I don't really follow any specific branch of Christianity, but Catholics are allowed to hope and pray that all are saved, or all will be saved, though the reality is left a "mystery" at this time.

I do think the Orthodox faith is most open to UR, with Catholicism second, and Protestant churches I've attended and Protestant friends tell me that their beliefs are more rigid and less open to the idea: they believe often that there is a small percentage going to heaven and the rest to hell. They think that only their branch of Christianity is the road to heaven.

[DavidFord]

Catholics are allowed to hope and pray that all are saved, or all will be saved, though the reality is left a 'mystery' at this time

I regularly pray a modified version of the Orthodox prayers for those in hell.  Are you aware of any Catholic prayers for those in hell?

[GodIsLove]

https://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universal_salvation_roman_catholic.html

If I'm representing the beliefs correctly, I think the Catholics would say there is no escape from hell, but we don't know who, if anyone, is in hell, so they pray for all of the departed... so they'd hope and pray that all the departed were either in purgatory or heaven, and then from there pray for those in purgatory.

It's interesting, purgatory is literally a purging/cleansing fire, which is closer to the idea of a temporary hell for the purposes of refining.

[DavidFord]

Because God became man in Jesus' incarnation, _every_ human is a member of God's family.  Some family members are closer to the King than others.  It'd be great if:
* every member of the family were closer to our Father than I am;
* every family member prayed for all family members-- themselves included-- to become ever-closer to our Father-- and worked toward that end.

The remarks below are said to be from Jesus.

_In the Presence of God:  Meditations with Christ on the Divine Indwelling_ by Clarence J. Enzler (1973), 138pp., 72-74
You Are of God's Family

_... a child is born to us, a son is given us ..."_ (Is. 9:5).

One member of the human race not only has God dwelling in Him, but is Himself God.

This holds special meaning for you.

It means that when you are joined to Me you _belong to My Father's own intimate family_.

Of your own nature you are simply My Father's creature.  But since He wanted you and all men to be more, He implanted in man a super-human life, a wonderful communication of and participation in His own divine life, which you call "grace."  By grace you become not merely My Father's creature but His friend and even His adopted child.

Man lost this gift of grace, thus breaking the line of communication between the Divine Being and himself.  Yet, through the incalculable measure of the Divine Being's love, this loss provided the occasion for the incomparably greater gift that would flow from My Incarnation.

Whereas before, mankind carried in it only an offshoot of the divine life, now as the result of God-made-man, one Man, one Member of your race, _is_ God.

In this singular Man a human nature does not exist by itself.  No, for just this once, a distinct human nature is incorporated into a divine Person, so that the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, possessor of the divine nature, becomes also through his possession of a human nature the son of man.

Somewhat as skin can be engrafted on your body so that it becomes one with and part of your body, so, in a sense, a human nature was instantaneously "engrafted" onto My divine nature, causing the divine and the human to be joined in one Person.

Mark well the phrase, "in _one_ Person;" that is the essence of God-Made-Man.

It means that the Son of Man is not merely a man in whom the nature of God is also somehow present.  _He is God made flesh_.

Rather than being a friend or an adopted human son of the Divine Being by decree or by gift-- which was all that any man previously could be-- I, the Christ, am the Father's _natural_ Son, His Son by inalienable right, His divine Son living in the created universe.

With the Incarnation the _fullness_ of the divine life _belongs_ to one member of the human race.

-- -- --

But, how does this place you in a new relationship to God?  How does it make you a member of God's family?

As My Father's Son, I am one with Him and the Holy Spirit.  As Mary's Son, however, I am a member with you of the human family.  Somewhat as two families are united through intermarriage, the union of My divinity with My humanity unites all members of the human race with the Divine Being.

When the king is your monarch and you are simply his subject, that is one relationship.  But when the king marries into your family, and his love produces a son, you and all members of your family are joined in a new relationship to the king himself.

Somewhat similarly, through My Incarnation, the family of man becomes the family of God.

The entire race, indeed, is lifted up to a kind of one-ness with the ONE WHO IS-- because _humanity is introduced into the Trinity; a man is placed on God's throne_.

This, indeed, is a mind-shattering truth.  The full consequences for mankind are incomprehensible.  Only by reflecting on it at great length can you begin to grasp the inconceivable dignity to which the Incarnation has elevated the human race.

Listen, My other self, to what some of My saints have said as they tried to express the meaning of God-made-man.
Listen to Augustine:  "God has become man that man might become God."
To Cyprian:  "What man is Christ wished to be, that man in turn might be what Christ is."
To Irenaeus:  "He became what we are, in order that He might make us what He is."
To Leo:  "He so united Himself to us and us to Him, that the descent of God to the human level was at the same time the ascent of man to the divine level."
To Athanasius:  "As the Lord became man by putting on our body, so shall we men be deified, assumed by His flesh."

Contemplate these truths, My other self:  Contemplate and begin to know yourself!

[DavidFord]

purgatory is literally a purging/cleansing fire, which is closer to the idea of a temporary hell for the purposes of refining

In Catholic thought, everyone in 'purgatory' is headed to heaven, eventually.
IMO, everyone in gehenna, sheol, and all the hellish afterlife realms is headed to heaven, eventually.  And the prayers of those not in the hellish realms can assist those in the hellish realms.

[DavidFord]

Kevin L. Zadai, in _The Cloud of Witnesses in the Courts of Heaven_, ed. by Robert Henderson (2019), 167pp., 156-157
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0768446473/
Then the angel... said, "You need to read Second Corinthians, chapter 5, especially verse 17.  You have been called to a ministry of reconciliation."  ....he said, "People need to be told that they have been bought and purchased, that all of humanity has been bought and purchased.  They need to be told that the price has already been paid.  You tell them that God has purchased them through Jesus Christ, and this is the powers of the coming age."  .... I can spiritually raise people from the dead just by testifying of Jesus.  Testifying of Christ initiates that resurrection power.  It's a function of the ministry of reconciliation.  The angel.... said [re: 2Cor 5], "You need to learn the whole chapter."

[GodIsLove]

purgatory is literally a purging/cleansing fire, which is closer to the idea of a temporary hell for the purposes of refining

In Catholic thought, everyone in 'purgatory' is headed to heaven, eventually.
IMO, everyone in gehenna, sheol, and all the hellish afterlife realms is headed to heaven, eventually.  And the prayers of those not in the hellish realms can assist those in the hellish realms.

Yes, my belief as well!

[GodIsLove]

Kevin L. Zadai, in _The Cloud of Witnesses in the Courts of Heaven_, ed. by Robert Henderson (2019), 167pp., 156-157
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0768446473/
Then the angel... said, "You need to read Second Corinthians, chapter 5, especially verse 17.  You have been called to a ministry of reconciliation."  ....he said, "People need to be told that they have been bought and purchased, that all of humanity has been bought and purchased.  They need to be told that the price has already been paid.  You tell them that God has purchased them through Jesus Christ, and this is the powers of the coming age."  .... I can spiritually raise people from the dead just by testifying of Jesus.  Testifying of Christ initiates that resurrection power.  It's a function of the ministry of reconciliation.  The angel.... said [re: 2Cor 5], "You need to learn the whole chapter."

Amen

[Andrew]

Hi David,

Kevin L Zandai came and spoke at a church I went to last year and I have one of his books. I did not got the impression that he was a universalist. I believe he said something like "God will still love you even if you end up in hell". The church for sure that I was at when he was there doesn't believe in universalism. Do you know if he now is a universalist? That quote makes it sound like he could be but it doesn't actually say everyone will be saved IMO so I'm not sure. That book it says was written in 2019 and he came to my church in 2019... 

And also is his book that I read he does seem to suggest a forever hell  but if you have other information to the contrary (like sharing more of what he posted from that book that you posted) I would very much like to hear it.

Andrew   

[rosered]

  good stuff David !!    and agree also  our lower thoughts are of the world and carnal and a type of prison from all the voices and  lies  fed to us from  the tree of knowledge of good and evil .  and touching this tree .   


James 4 teaches us that our tongue is the unruly little member, that no man can tame ,  that sets this course of hell  and fire , place of torment , if the mind  is  trapped by  all the voices that  the lies  hold on too .  only than will the TRUTH set us free .     We hear His Voice and LIVE
GODS LOVE IS GREATER THAN SIN  AND DEATH . the temporary abode .. 
  I agree that that raising the dead to Life again , is to plant the tree of   LIFE IN THEM TO EAT OF ...     THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD and the truth  that comes forth out of    faith in HIM by GOD OWN SPIRIT .  we are than connected to the greater   LIGHT & LIFE  full of LOVE . 
This to me is the power  source that is endless  and is limitless that always was and IS  NOW  and will always be ...... 

IT IS THE TRUTH  that sets us free  into the great liberty of being called the sons of God ... spiritual beings  in clay suits .

and His work will only increase  as many come to the Light  and awaken  from the sleep of death in Adam . 

just some excitement on this revelation   of knowing  the truth .    :dsunny:   

[DavidFord]

his book that I read he does seem to suggest a forever hell  but if you have other information to the contrary (like sharing more of what he posted from that book that you posted) I would very much like to hear it.

He wrote only a chapter for the book.  The idea of a forever hell is the conventional view, so chances are that he accepts it.  If he accepts it, I think he needs to revisit the angel's advice to him, and study 2Cor 5 again.

2Corinthians 5:14-21 (Etheridge), http://dukhrana.com
14 For the love of the Meshiha constraineth us, because we judge this,
That if one for every man hath died,
then (was) every man dead.
15 And for every man he died,
that they who live should not live to themselves,
but to him who on their behalf died and arose.
16 And henceforth we no man know according to the flesh;
and if we have known the Meshiha according to the flesh, [Baphgar, "In the body."]
yet from now we know not.
17-18 Whoever therefore is in the Meshiha is a new creature;
the old things have passed,
and every thing hath become new from Aloha,
who hath reconciled us to himself in the Meshiha,
and given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
19 For Aloha is in the Meshiha,
who hath reconciled the world with his greatness;
and he hath not reckoned unto them their sins,
and hath put in us the word of reconciliation.
20 WE are ambassadors then for the Meshiha,
and as if Aloha himself besought you by us:
instead of the Meshiha, [Chaloph Meshiha.] therefore, we beseech,
Be you reconciled unto Aloha.
21 For Him who knew not sin,
on our account hath he made sin,
that we might be in him the righteousness of Aloha.

[DavidFord]

_66 Love Letters: A Conversation with God that Invites You into His Story_ (2009), 400pp. by Larry Crabb; on 264, 265 in the chapter on Ephesians
https://www.amazon.com/66-Love-Letters-Conversation-Invites/dp/0849946409/
And finally, expect opposition.  My enemy will stand against you at every turn.  You are no match for him.  But My Spirit is in you.  My enemy is no match for Him.  ....
* _Keep the helmet of salvation on your head_.  Keep hope alive.  No matter what happens, no matter how you fail, all shall be well and (as Julian of Norwich heard Me say) all manner of things shall be well.
* _Never stop reading my letters_.  My word is My Spirit's sword.  Use it to fight evil, first in you, then around you.
* _Learn to pray_.  Pray in My Spirit, on all occasions, with all kinds of prayers and requests, for everyone you know, especially those who suffer for my sake [6:1-18]."

[DavidFord]

Frank Laubach, _You Are My Friends (1942), 178pp., 48-50
Some of us always walk on the right side of the sidewalk so that Jesus can walk unseen on our left side. We talk to him about the people who are passing. The following conversation with Jesus actually took place on the street:

"I am so glad, dear Christ, that you are unseen by my side. I can see you with my mind's eye, turning your face toward me, putting your arm around me. The other people would be surprised if they saw you that way. They would wonder who you are, wouldn't they, Master?"

"This, my friend, is what I have longed for you to do, since you were a little child. The joy you feel inside your heart is my joy, which I am sharing with you.  ....  Yes, I am looking into their souls. I am watching for occasions to penetrate their hearts. I have been watching all day and all night and all year. This is why I am ultimately undefeatable, because I never grow weary of waiting for my chance until the day when they will grow hungry for me."
....
"What can we do, Master, together, for these people that we meet? What can I do, Lord, to help you, as I go by?"

"You can look into their eyes with love and think of me as you look. Your thought will be like a re-broadcasting station and will help them to open their minds to my spirit. When they look at you, they attune themselves to you, although they are not aware of me. So I reach them through you. That is how each of us helps the other. In such mutual aid our friendship grows closer."
....
We can so train ourselves as to be able to hear his voice, to speak his language, and to know his thoughts.

[marie glen]

:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Frank Laubach, _You Are My Friends (1942), 178pp., 48-50
Some of us always walk on the right side of the sidewalk so that Jesus can walk unseen on our left side. We talk to him about the people who are passing. The following conversation with Jesus actually took place on the street:

"I am so glad, dear Christ, that you are unseen by my side. I can see you with my mind's eye, turning your face toward me, putting your arm around me. The other people would be surprised if they saw you that way. They would wonder who you are, wouldn't they, Master?"

"This, my friend, is what I have longed for you to do, since you were a little child. The joy you feel inside your heart is my joy, which I am sharing with you.  ....  Yes, I am looking into their souls. I am watching for occasions to penetrate their hearts. I have been watching all day and all night and all year. This is why I am ultimately undefeatable, because I never grow weary of waiting for my chance until the day when they will grow hungry for me."
....
"What can we do, Master, together, for these people that we meet? What can I do, Lord, to help you, as I go by?"

"You can look into their eyes with love and think of me as you look. Your thought will be like a re-broadcasting station and will help them to open their minds to my spirit. When they look at you, they attune themselves to you, although they are not aware of me. So I reach them through you. That is how each of us helps the other. In such mutual aid our friendship grows closer."
....
We can so train ourselves as to be able to hear his voice, to speak his language, and to know his thoughts.

_66 Love Letters: A Conversation with God that Invites You into His Story_ (2009), 400pp. by Larry Crabb; on 264, 265 in the chapter on Ephesians
https://www.amazon.com/66-Love-Letters-Conversation-Invites/dp/0849946409/
And finally, expect opposition.  My enemy will stand against you at every turn.  You are no match for him.  But My Spirit is in you.  My enemy is no match for Him.  ....
* _Keep the helmet of salvation on your head_.  Keep hope alive.  No matter what happens, no matter how you fail, all shall be well and (as Julian of Norwich heard Me say) all manner of things shall be well.
* _Never stop reading my letters_.  My word is My Spirit's sword.  Use it to fight evil, first in you, then around you.
* _Learn to pray_.  Pray in My Spirit, on all occasions, with all kinds of prayers and requests, for everyone you know, especially those who suffer for my sake [6:1-18]."

Amen we can train ourselves (be trained.. all of us are!) to hear His heart.. And to see Father's view(point)..

:thumbsup:

[DavidFord]

John Pulsford, _Infoldings and Unfoldings of the Divine Genius in Nature and Man_ (1887), 108pp., 27-28
https://archive.org/stream/infoldingsunfold00puls/infoldingsunfold00puls_djvu.txt
XI. As soon as the severance from the earthly
body is effected, the soulish body, which has been
day by day, for years, refining and clarifying, begins
more rapidly to be purified from all the remains of
its fleshly defilement.  As a plant which has acquired
a good root in winter, grows rapidly, when summer
comes ; so, the inner man, which during the earth-
life, has become rooted and grounded in the Christly
nature, soon develops his full, glorious, human
form, under the summer glory of the heavenly
regions.  Relieved from the superincumbent flesh,
the pure fire of the Divine Life, which was all but
suffocated, glows forth, and the man appears in his
luminous or glorified form.  In other words, the
earthly body quenches the indwelling Glory ; while
the future soulish body reveals it, as its ultimate
clothing, or "wedding garment."

Clearly distinguish then, between what Paul calls
"the body of this death," and your inner body of
purer elements,-- that "building of God,"-- which is
to show forth and illustrate the eternal principles,
loves, and delights, of the Divine Nature.

XII. Of course heavy souls, who have been carnalized
by their connection with the flesh, do not rise
at death.  Their weight of earthliness holds them
down, and they must undergo searching processes
of purification before they can begin to ascend.

But from those who are partakers of the pure,
bright, Christ-nature, earthly decease withdraws the
heavy curtains of the lower atmospheres, and they
glide into the rosy light of Heaven's morning.
Suddenly they find themselves, they know not how,
in the midst of well-known friends.  They are too
much at home to wonder ; nor does it occur to
them, at first, to compare or contrast their new
circumstances with their old conditions.

On 36-38:
VI. True, for a little while, we shall be living in
different worlds.  But if I, as Perfected Man, live in
Heaven, you, as perfecting men, will follow Me.
Heaven is the final Home of perfect human forms
living in the sensible Glory of the Eternal Father's Love.

Be not afraid.  We shall meet again.  The only
Eternal and Almighty Law in the Universe, is
Love's Law.  All laws which are not from Love, are
momentary.  Over all separations, distances, deaths,
Love prevails.  Nothing can take you out of My
Heart, nothing can take Me out of your heart.  We
shall meet therefore, and make home together.

Death has power over flesh, your flesh and Mine ;
but Death has no power over Love.  Death reaches
not into God, nor into the sphere of God.  The
Glory of The Father is the proper sphere of His
children.  Your real identity is hidden from death, in God.

VII. My Love to you did not begin on Earth. It
is not dependent, therefore, on the earth, nor on any
other world.  Love created all material and all
heavenly mansions, as habitations for Love's
children.  "Let not your heart be troubled."  If you
grow old in one form of your nature, you shall grow
young in another form of your nature.  Love's
resources are infinite.  If the earths or the Heavens
which Love has made for you, dissolve, the Love
which made them will make new Earths and new
Heavens.  You cannot count the worlds which float
in space : nor can the mansions of the Great
Father's Eternal House be numbered.  Yet ever
new mansions, for new races and peoples, are being
created.

VIII. I go into the Heavens _to found a new world_
for you, and your race.

There are innumerable mansions which are not
adapted to you.  You would not be at home in
them.  I will prepare for you _your own place_.
I carry a new order of Humanity into the Heavens, from
which, and according to which, a new heavenly
creation will begin to evolve.  I am the First of the
new heaven, which I will people from your race.
The unfallen angels have yet much to learn.

I introduce a higher Law, a more comprehensive
Law, into the angelic Heavens.  Powers are become
subject to Me which have never been subject to the
angels.  My return to "My Father's House" will
introduce a higher Law, and will be the founding of
a fuller and more ultimate style of Humanity in the
midst of the angels, than they have ever known.
They will desire to be made flesh, that they may
become richer in spirit.

IX. The new Heaven, of which I am the Foundation
and the Beginning, is of necessity _central_.  It is
central because it comprehends more than any
former Heaven ; and will be more potent for good.
In due time, when the multitudes out of every
generation which I will gather into it, are organized,
and operate as one Divine Energy, its influence will
reach to the ends of sin, and to the depths of Hell.
Such is the Father's plan for His House, that in its
centre every virtue and peculiarity should be
represented, and that it should have power over all
evil, and bear an equal relationship to His fallen and
unfallen races.

X. We know not at what rate other heavens are
growing : many of them may be comparatively
stationary.  But the New Heaven founded by Christ
must have been growing by millions yearly, century
after century.  And its energies, abilities, and
organizations for good, must be growing and
perfecting as rapidly as its population is multiplying.
If young men and women could be got to dwell
upon it, nothing is so fitted to kindle their lofty and
pure enthusiasm as the prospect of emigration to
this Kingdom of kingdoms,-- the Kingdom of the
Incarnation in redeemed humanity.  The highest
places and honours of the political world are not
worthy of the soul's enthusiasm ; but the final
kingdom of humanity is quite worthy of the soul's
loftiest passion.

[DavidFord]

Is God the painful, purifying fire some experience?
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15013.msg215832#msg215832

intriguing dream in Michael Wood's _The Jerome Conspiracy_ (2010), 153-4
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15030.msg217064#msg217064

New Books on Victorious Gospel (Biblical Universalism)
https://youtu.be/Mu48__lhBC0

Sometimes, events demonstrate that the words that crossed one's mind are from God.
E.g., Brad Jersak's van broke down, and he ended up running along the highway at nighttime.  Cars were whizzing by.  Words crossed his mind:  "You might want to get right off the highway for the next vehicle."
He asked aloud, "All the way off?" and got a quiet whisper back:  "Yes, all the way off."  He said "Okay" and got over the white concrete barrier.  The next vehicle that passed was carrying a house which would have hit him had he remained on the shoulder.

_Can You Hear Me?: Tuning in to the God Who Speaks_ by Brad Jersak (2012), 296pp., 55
https://www.amazon.com/Can-You-Hear-Me-Tuning/dp/1484935179/

[darryl]

On
https://www.thefreedomassignment.com/marks-blog-space
doing control-f/ 'find' for: torture
brings one to a written 2-way discussion between Mark Holloway and God, wherein God discounts the idea of His sending people to never-ending torture.

Holloway wrote 2 books of his conversations with God, and has a facebook page at
https://facebook.com/thefreedomassignment

very interesting !

[DavidFord]

_Communion With God_ by Neale Donald Walsch (2000), 229pp., on 154-155.  These are said to be remarks by God:

Nothing has captured the imagination of humans more completely than the idea that hell exists, that there is a place in the Universe to which God condemns those who have not obeyed His law.
Frightening, gruesome pictures of this horrific place appear in frescoes on the ceilings and walls of churches all over the world. Equally upsetting images adorn the pages of catechism texts and Sunday-school booklets given to little children-- the better to scare them with.

And while good, church-going people have for centuries believed the message that these images send, it happens that the message is false. That is why I inspired Pope John Paul II to indicate to a Papal Audience at the Vatican (July 28, 1999) that "improper use of biblical pictures must not create psychosis or anxiety." The biblical descriptions of hell are symbolic and metaphorical.
I inspired the Pope to say that the "inextinguishable fire" and "the burning oven" the Bible speaks of "indicate the complete frustration and vacuity of a life without God." Hell is a state of separation from God, he explained, a state caused not by a punishing God but rather, _self-induced_.
It is not God's function to administer retribution or to punish anyone, and the Pope made that clear in his Audience.

[DavidFord]

"God has become man that man might become God"
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15013.msg216333#msg216333

[DavidFord]

_The New Revelations: A Conversation with God_ (2002), 358pp. by Neale Donald Walsch.  On 126-128, my brackets:
[God] There's no such thing as reward and punishment in my kingdom.  Yet, saying that there is no such thing as "punishment" is not the same as saying there are no consequences.
When you do the thing called "die"-- that is, after you end your time with a physical body here on Earth-- you will be given the opportunity for a Life Review.  In fact, you will _ask for it_.  You will _want it_.  It will be a major part of the process by which you come to know more about yourself and about Life, by which you evolve.

During this Life Review process you will be allowed to experience every moment of your life, everything that you ever thought, said, or did.  This experience will be comprehensive.  You will not only experience this from your point of view, you will experience it from the point of view of _every person whose life you touched_.
You will be able to experience what _they_ experienced as a result of what you were thinking, saying, or doing.

[Walsch] Let me see if I understand this.  I will move through all of my life's interactions with others, one interaction at a time, _from the other's point of view_?

[God] Exactly.

[Walsh] My God, that _would_ be hell.

[God] No.  It would be remembering.  You will remember Who You Really Are and who you can become by coming to know what others experienced at your hands.  But even if it was painful for them, you will not suffer.

[Walsch] How can that be?

[God] Suffering is a point of view.  Remember that.  Pain is an experience; suffering is a point of view _about_ that experience.  You will experience the pain-- as a mother experiences the pain of childbirth-- but you will not think of it as suffering.  To complete the analogy, you will experience it as the joy of giving birth. In this case, to a New You.  To a You who now understands more, comprehends more, realizes more, knows more-- and is ready to experience the Self in a new way as a result.
This process is called evolution.  And in this process of evolution the primitive concepts of "reward and punishment" have no place.

[darryl]

"God has become man that man might become God"
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15013.msg216333#msg216333

wow, pretty mindblowing !

[DavidFord]

wow, pretty mindblowing !

Indeed.
me to someone:  Do you disagree with any of this Jesus?:

John 10 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/niv/john/10.htm
33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?
35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came-- and Scripture cannot be set aside-- ....

Sadhu Sundar Singh on theosis
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15030.msg215532#msg215532

Do you see anything erroneous here?:

Theosis: Partaking of the Divine Nature
http://ww1.antiochian.org/content/theosis-partaking-divine-nature
C. S. Lewis understood this concept and expressed it compellingly in Mere Christianity:
The command "Be ye perfect" is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-- for we can prevent Him, if we choose-- He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creatures, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to Him perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said. (Macmillan, 1952, p. 174)

======================================.
"it teaches perfectionism. We will never be perfect in this life"
Is this possible?:

1 John 4:17 (King James), https://biblehub.com/kjv/1_john/4-17.htm
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

[DavidFord]

_A Course in Miracles_ is a massive tome said to be dictated by Jesus to 2 people who were atheist/agnostic.

Chapter 2 -- VIII. The Meaning of the Last Judgment
https://acourseinmiraclesnow.com/course-miracles-chapter-2-viii-meaning-last-judgment/
T-2.VIII.1. One of the ways in which you can correct the magic-miracle confusion is to remember that you did not create yourself. 2 You are apt to forget this when you become egocentric, and this puts you in a position where a belief in magic is virtually inevitable. 3 Your will to create was given you by your Creator, Who was expressing the same Will in His creation. 4 Since creative ability rests in the mind, everything you create is necessarily a matter of will. 5 It also follows that whatever you alone make is real in your own sight, though not in the Mind of God. 6 This basic distinction leads directly into the real meaning of the Last Judgment.

T-2.VIII.2. The Last Judgment is one of the most threatening ideas in your thinking. 2 This is because you do not understand it. 3 Judgment is not an attribute of God. 4 It was brought into being only after the separation, when it became one of the many learning devices to be built into the overall plan. 5 Just as the separation occurred over millions of years, the Last Judgment will extend over a similarly long period, and perhaps an even longer one. 6 Its length can, however, be greatly shortened by miracles, the device for shortening but not abolishing time. 7 If a sufficient number become truly miracle-minded, this shortening process can be virtually immeasurable. 8 It is essential, however, that you free yourself from fear quickly, because you must emerge from the conflict if you are to bring peace to other minds.

T-2.VIII.3. The Last Judgment is generally thought of as a procedure undertaken by God. 2 Actually it will be undertaken by my brothers with my help. 3 It is a final healing rather than a meting out of punishment, however much you may think that punishment is deserved. 4 Punishment is a concept totally opposed to right-mindedness, and the aim of the Last Judgment is to restore right-mindedness to you. 5 The Last Judgment might be called a process of right evaluation. 6 It simply means that everyone will finally come to understand what is worthy and what is not. 7 After this, the ability to choose can be directed rationally. 8 Until this distinction is made, however, the vacillations between free and imprisoned will cannot but continue.

T-2.VIII.4. The first step toward freedom involves a sorting out of the false from the true. 2 This is a process of separation in the constructive sense, and reflects the true meaning of the Apocalypse. 3 Everyone will ultimately look upon his own creations and choose to preserve only what is good, just as God Himself looked upon what He had created and knew that it was good. 4 At this point, the mind can begin to look with love on its own creations because of their worthiness. 5 At the same time the mind will inevitably disown its miscreations which, without belief, will no longer exist.

T-2.VIII.5. The term "Last Judgment" is frightening not only because it has been projected onto God, but also because of the association of "last" with death. 2 This is an outstanding example of upside-down perception. 3 If the meaning of the Last Judgment is objectively examined, it is quite apparent that it is really the doorway to life. 4 No one who lives in fear is really alive. 5 Your own last judgment cannot be directed toward yourself, because you are not your own creation. 6 You can, however, apply it meaningfully and at any time to everything you have made, and retain in your memory only what is creative and good. 7 This is what your right-mindedness cannot but dictate. 8 The purpose of time is solely to "give you time" to achieve this judgment. 9 It is your own perfect judgment of your own perfect creations. 10 When everything you retain is lovable, there is no reason for fear to remain with you. 11 This is your part in the Atonement.