Tentmaker Forum

On
https://www.thefreedomassignment.com/marks-blog-space
doing control-f/ 'find' for: torture
brings one to a written 2-way discussion between Mark Holloway and God, wherein God discounts the idea of His sending people to never-ending torture.

Holloway wrote 2 books of his conversations with God, plus a 3rd book, and has a facebook page at
https://facebook.com/TheFreedomDiariesNZ/

Is this the one u are referring to:

WHAT SORT OF FATHER DO YOU THINK I AM??
12/1/2018 0 COMMENTS

Why do you ask, God?

Because the things you believe and tell each other about me, anyone not familiar with your religion, would have to ask what sort of father do you really think I am? So I'm asking too, Mark, what sort of father do you think I am?

I'm not liking the sound of this, God.

Mark, remember when I compared God with human fathers?

You mean 'If you know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more does your father in heaven know how to give good gifts to you'?

Near enough, Mark. A LOT has been lost in translation and a lot of baggage added, but yes that one. The concept is simple - if you, with all your humanness, can be good fathers, then surely I can be too?

God, us Christians are fairly familiar with that concept, we probably know a lot more about godly fatherhood than the Jews did.

Hmmm. This might come as a shock, Mark, I'd like a wee discussion about the nonsense Satan and his servant Religion have taught Christianity and the similarities between you and the Jews.

God, really? Not another of these conversations!

Bear with me, Mark, Satan and Religion have fooled you Christians, it's nothing new, they did the same to the apostles on a number of occasions...

Aye?? Fooled the Apostles??

Absolutely. Haven't you read where they tricked the Apostles into thinking the non Jewish Christians needed to be circumcised? First the Jews, and now Christianity, you have been vulnerable to Satan and Religion for so long you have come to believe their most mischievous lies, you think they are gospel truth.

Nice one, God, I'm wanting to tell you to shut up. People won't like this.

Mark, stop kidding yourself. You love it when I say things that provoke annoyance and outrage. You want to destroy Religion, you want to see him bleed for the damage he's done to Christianity. It pleases you when I say things that ruffle religious feathers. Your real problem is that the things I say challenge what you personally believe - you think you're free from Religion's deceptions, but you're steeped in them.

That's a bit tough, God??

The things he has taught you are so poisonous it will take a lifetime before you are free of them. And even then, years from now when you see me face to face, you will be shocked at how many of his lies you still believe. Decades of hunting Religion down will not free you completely from his poison and deception. He is the most powerful and respected majesty in the demonic realm.

Religion is more murderous, more suffocating to personal freedom than any other principality or power. His greatest power is that he turns your attention on lesser kingdoms so that he can sneak in unnoticed.

He points at pornography, murder, violence, racism, but poses himself as a force for righteousness, the purveyor and foundation of all that is good, yet all the while he squeals with glee because you believe his lies. He is like the many denominations, sects and cults he has co-founded with you; 'clean and white on the outside, and full of dead men's bones on the inside'.

He has convinced you that you are in danger of punishment from me and lucky to be considered for salvation. But Mark, it's not about salvation, it's about relationship with the three of us, Father, Son and Spirit, and you're not lucky to be considered for it, you were born for it.

You are not the sorry sin-infested mess he tells you that you are, you are the pinnacle of creation, as Paul Young's masterful book 'Eve' states. You are the envy of the angelic kingdom, dark and light, and as John 3:16 puts it, I 'highly esteem' you.

God, can we stop a minute please. You know this is going to be too hard to swallow for so many well-meaning Christians. Can't we take it a bit slower, there has to be a more gentle doorway to all this?

Trust me, Mark, this is the best approach - Religion's power comes from the rules, regulations and fear, that he imposes on you. And his greatest victory is that Christianity's twisted view of me turns others away. You think you are evangelising the world with truth, but you have given them such a destructive view of me, that most of them are genuinely bewildered. The nonsense you tell them has them asking the obvious question.

What question, God?

What sort of father do you think I am?

But, God, we think you are a good father. We even sing that song; "You're a good good father".

Yes, I am good. But you believe the opposite.

God, that's hardly fair!

Mark, you sing I am good and the singing is intoxicating, just like any singing can be. You think you believe the words, but the things Religion has taught you, paint a different picture of me – they describe a mean and menacing God, intent on your punishment and harm. The nice words you sing about me are no match for the lies you believe.

But, God no, I think you're wrong, we think you are a good father!

Actually, you don't. You are convinced that you were born inescapably sinful.

Yes, but God, that's us, not you.

You're missing the point, Mark. You think you're born sinful but you also believe that each of you is created by me. You've never stopped to think through the lie!

What lie, God??

Mark, if I created you sinful then it is not you, but I, who is at fault. You can hardly be blamed for the way you were created.

No, God, it's not your fault, it's our fathers' or something.

Really? So I mix in something your fathers did when I create you, then I hold you responsible?

Well yes, apparently?

Mark, is it any wonder that the un-Christianised think you are mad and your God a tyrant?

Well yes, no, actually I don't know, God. Arguing with you is difficult.

Mark, the accuser blinds you to the obvious muddle that you have come to believe. He has so messed your minds with Religious filth that those who hear what you believe wonder if you have thrown away your minds.

If you really are created in sin, then how can I blame you for that? And how can any 'good, good father' torture you in burning liquid, unless you say sorry for things you had no control over.

But, God, it's not our sin at birth anymore that you throw us into hell for, that's all changed, now it's the stuff we do once we get to the 'age of accountability'...

What do you mean 'that's all changed', Mark?

Well, Christianity used to believe you threw babies who died into hell. For thousands of years we believed that, then someone was brave enough to suggest that was total codswallop. Eventually we changed what we believed and now, apparently, you only throw us into hell for what we do after we reach the 'age of accountability'. Babies are safe from you now.

Mark, 'the age of accountability' is a concept invented by Religion and you, not me. A clever way to adjust but still hold fast to your insistence that I am a God focused on sin and punishment and throwing the guilty into eternal torture.

Punishment, God, not torture!

Torture, Mark. Flames that burn but never go out, burning people who can never die, but must endure those flames forever. No human, no matter how twisted, has managed to invent a torture so heinous and yet you attribute the idea to me, your 'good good father'. Really??

Ok, torture. We believe you torture us in burning liquid if we don't say sorry for the things we decide to do ourselves after we reach 'the age of accountability'.

Yes, but until recently you Christians believed that I, your 'good, good father', would throw dead infants into hell if you didn't perform all sorts of rites and prayers to persuade me not to. What sort of father do you honestly think I am?? Good men would refuse to follow a God who has to be persuaded not to torture babies – is it any surprise to that the un-churched are so horrified and disgusted by your beliefs?

But God we don't believe that any more. Now you only throw us into hell...

Torture you Mark, say it, you need to face the grim reality of your beliefs.

Ok, torture. You only torture us for the stuff we do after we reach 'the age of accountability'.

Yes, so you said. And Mark how old does a person have to be before he reaches this 'age of accountability' that you and Religion have invented?

No one seems quite sure, God.

So you are constantly in danger of being thrown into a lake of fire and tortured there forever, by this 'good, good father' that you call me, for any action committed after a certain age, but you're not quite sure what that age is?

Well, ok that is kind of what it's like, God.

Dear dear dear... What has Religion persuaded you to believe, what sort of father do you honestly think I am? Has anyone ever questioned all this?

Not unless they wanted to be called a heretic God.

That's what they called me Mark, and Paul, and Elijah, and everyone else worth their salt.

Yes, but God, if we were to believe this stuff you're saying, it would change everything. The basic tenets of our faith are that we are born in sin, and that you by your mercy, took away our punishment on the cross.

So if you were going to be punished, who was going to be doing the punishing?

Well, you apparently, God?

Mark, honestly? What sort of father do you think I am?

I'm running out of steam here, God. Running out of argument. Not wanting to accept what you're saying because...

Because it would mean you needed to start again, Mark. Go back to the beginning, back to the garden when Religion first entered the picture and asked 'Did God really say'? You need to go right back there and ask me. That's a huge problem for most of Christianity, your leaders included, because most of you don't know how to hear me, not in full sentences and paragraphs like this.

The prospect of asking me to redefine your faith, re-explain what this whole Father, Son, Spirit and human story is about is terrifying, what if you got it wrong? You'd rather stick with what you believe.

The Pharisees found themselves in the same predicament Mark, and now here you all are at the same place they were. They had taken a relationship I started with the patriarchs and reduced it to a set of rules and regulations presided over by an angry God, and now you have done the same with the truths I taught the disciples.

The Pharisees decided it was safer to stick with Religion's lies than listen to me, and so they murdered me. And now you are all doing the same, murdering the truth so you can keep listening to Religion's lies about a father consumed with your behaviour and punishment. Have you ever met any other father so consumed with his children's behaviour as you say I am?

Well no, God.

What about punishment, have you ever met a father who would punish his children in the way you say I do, torture them, burn them alive, and keep them alive in the flames so the pain never goes away?

God, of course not. But you're supposed to be more just than we are. Christianity teaches that your 'justice' requires you...

To be merciful, Mark?

Well, yes.

Mark, mercy is required in the face of guilt, but we're not talking about guilt, this is about injustice, about people accused of breaking laws they're not even sure about and can probably not help breaking because of the state in which they were born. Neither mercy nor justice has anything to do with that, it's a mischievous lie.

And anyway Mark, what sort of father is constantly using words like guilt when talking about his children? Have you ever met another father who would punish his kids for any crime, no matter how minimal, by torturing them forever?

Well, no.

So Mark, that's why I'm asking...

What sort of father do you think I am?

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 01, 2018, 03:05:19 AM
Is this the one u are referring to:

WHAT SORT OF FATHER DO YOU THINK I AM??
12/1/2018

Yes.

Thanks for sharing.

I'm sure many think this Guy is blasphemous or heretical or plain nuts, but I'm open minded.

...."baggage" is a word I like to use about Christianity, "have we lost some of the gospel message? And picked up any baggage along the way?"

Namely, the old world superstition / king, priest collusion to control the people.. (just those 5 words so poorly translated to read hell.. and aion, aionios, etc to read 'for ever' and also, imo, the tendency to consign the bible to myth / metaphor  - which I never really realized before this very minute :Chinscratch: but I should have, as the 1st church fathers were not prone to it (altho of course there is metaphor in the bible. :laughing7: )

I agree the mis-understanding, we call "hell" really is - or should be - just what sort of "Father" do you think I am?! Logic/Logos!/Truth

I think we should all include in our prayers, listening.. but also realize there's no limit to error and ideas and spirits of error and promoting error, which comes to all of us - unless we are not seeking to serve God at all? -- that truth is the washing of the water of the word to dislodge from our minds any logs or specks of error we still have.. or acquire!? :mshock:

When we listen, when we read, it works it way through our own mind, our own filters, and we can know this is true of everyone.

It's very interesting to read other's thoughts and learnings, and to share! So awesome.. But I never can understand how - in the world - there's so much lauding of people, and following people.. with teachings..

But some of the best books I read early on.. like "God Calling" was like this link. It was two lady listeners and it was awesome reading. They likely however, were Et (somewhat) believers.. perhaps just had never questioned it, nor focused on it. I still consider Et believers and the Et churches to be brethren. Though we do these days, hear some strange stories about churches.. and I have no idea where the churches are at, but just know there are true believers very likely in all churches and denominations. I think even most "turn or burn" believers, especially lay believers, are sincere and truly believe they are serving God for anyone not coming to the faith before they die, it is thought to be a true unchangeable, forever tragedy.. So I imagine some can be very persistent.. which may help account for the rise of (sort of) militant atheism.. satan&co who having fingers in every pie and playing all sides and angles.. always of course, for division, and however far that can be taken, over and over throughout history... {Won't God ruling supreme and alone, be absolutely wonderful.. :cloud9: :cloud9: }

Quote
WHAT SORT OF FATHER DO YOU THINK I AM??

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 01, 2018, 04:01:03 AMI'm sure many think this Guy is blasphemous or heretical or plain nuts, but I'm open minded.

I think Holloway is fine.  I've read 2 of his conversations-with-God books, and 2 webpages of his blog posts, plus a little of his facebook material.

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 01, 2018, 03:05:19 AM
Because it would mean you needed to start again, Mark. Go back to the beginning, back to the garden when Religion first entered the picture and asked 'Did God really say'? You need to go right back there and ask me. That's a huge problem for most of Christianity, your leaders included, because most of you don't know how to hear me, not in full sentences and paragraphs like this.

That part of the conversation is a bit alarming; dangerous or bold depending or your persuasion. Taking a line associated with the serpent's first deception and putting it in the mouth of God. Wow, what a risk!

CST, yikes I must have skimmed over that.

QuoteBecause it would mean you needed to start again, Mark. Go back to the beginning, back to the garden when Religion first entered the picture and asked 'Did God really say'? You need to go right back there and ask me. That's a huge problem for most of Christianity, your leaders included, because most of you don't know how to hear me, not in full sentences and paragraphs like this.

Quote from: CST on October 11, 2018, 04:02:12 PM
That part of the conversation is a bit alarming; dangerous or bold depending or your persuasion. Taking a line associated with the serpent's first deception and putting it in the mouth of God. Wow, what a risk!

Do you think Eve _shouldn't_ have asked God, 'God, did you really say _______?'
The Genesis account has God instructing Adam, but no mention is made of God instructing Eve directly about the tree; I bet she heard things 2nd-hand from Adam.  Also, God didn't say anything about touching the leaves—Adam and/or Eve added that to God's words to Adam.

Genesis 2 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+2&version=YLT
16 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'

Genesis 3 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=YLT
3 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,
3 and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

Ooooohhhhh thanks I get it now...

When CST quoted it I thought it meant that we should question if God really said what he said to Adam.

But now I think it means what you said, Eve should have gone to ask God, to ask if he did say that, instead of believing the serpent, since she heard God's word secondhand from Adam.

It makes sense, that we should pray and ask God to show us the truth so we aren't deceived.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 12, 2018, 04:11:25 AM

QuoteBecause it would mean you needed to start again, Mark. Go back to the beginning, back to the garden when Religion first entered the picture and asked 'Did God really say'? You need to go right back there and ask me. That's a huge problem for most of Christianity, your leaders included, because most of you don't know how to hear me, not in full sentences and paragraphs like this.

Quote from: CST on October 11, 2018, 04:02:12 PM
That part of the conversation is a bit alarming; dangerous or bold depending or your persuasion. Taking a line associated with the serpent's first deception and putting it in the mouth of God. Wow, what a risk!

Do you think Eve _shouldn't_ have asked God, 'God, did you really say _______?'
The Genesis account has God instructing Adam, but no mention is made of God instructing Eve directly about the tree; I bet she heard things 2nd-hand from Adam.  Also, God didn't say anything about touching the leaves—Adam and/or Eve added that to God's words to Adam.

Genesis 2 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+2&version=YLT
16 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'

Genesis 3 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=YLT
3 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,
3 and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

No, Eve didn't ask this is important in a few translations of the Bible (others phrase it differently) like the NIV the first words the serpent speaks when moving to deceive Eve are "Did God really say...". I just felt that putting those words in the mouth of God was incredibly audacious on behalf of the writer of this article.

I noticed also that Eve wasn't present when God gave Adam the instruction to leave the tree alone. It's also worth noting that according to the ESV the Hebrew word for 'you' in 3:1-5 is plural but it makes no such comment in 2:17. I'm not sure if that's correct use of Hebrew or an oversight on that part of the people writing the translation.

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 12, 2018, 04:31:09 AM
Ooooohhhhh thanks I get it now...

When CST quoted it I thought it meant that we should question if God really said what he said to Adam.

But now I think it means what you said, Eve should have gone to ask God, to ask if he did say that, instead of believing the serpent, since she heard God's word secondhand from Adam.

It makes sense, that we should pray and ask God to show us the truth so we aren't deceived.

No didn't mean that, the point was that that was what the serpent tried to get Eve to do which was why I felt it was audacious. Of course, if that plural 'you' is meaningful the answer is 'no' for Eve but 'yes' for Adam which may well have enabled the deception.

Quote from: CST on October 12, 2018, 05:48:20 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 12, 2018, 04:11:25 AM
Genesis 2 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+2&version=YLT
16 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'
Genesis 3 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=YLT
3 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,
3 and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

No, Eve didn't ask this is important in a few translations of the Bible (others phrase it differently) like the NIV the first words the serpent speaks when moving to deceive Eve are "Did God really say...".

To me, "Is it true that God hath said" is basically the same thing as "Did God really say."

QuoteI just felt that putting those words in the mouth of God was incredibly audacious on behalf of the writer of this article.

You think Satan doesn't exist.  I can understand how you'd consider a quotation of God supposedly quoting Satan-- an entity you think doesn't exist-- "incredibly audacious."

The Bible has God quoting a doubting Sarah:
Genesis 18:11-15 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+18%3A11-15+&version=KJV
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 13, 2018, 04:22:05 AM

Quote from: CST on October 12, 2018, 05:48:20 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 12, 2018, 04:11:25 AM
Genesis 2 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+2&version=YLT
16 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'
Genesis 3 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=YLT
3 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,
3 and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

No, Eve didn't ask this is important in a few translations of the Bible (others phrase it differently) like the NIV the first words the serpent speaks when moving to deceive Eve are "Did God really say...".

To me, "Is it true that God hath said" is basically the same thing as "Did God really say."

QuoteI just felt that putting those words in the mouth of God was incredibly audacious on behalf of the writer of this article.

You think Satan doesn't exist.  I can understand how you'd consider a quotation of God supposedly quoting Satan-- an entity you think doesn't exist-- "incredibly audacious."

The Bible has God quoting a doubting Sarah:
Genesis 18:11-15 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+18%3A11-15+&version=KJV
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

I think the conversation is fiction and the use of such term gives away that it's fiction. For some reason the inventor has decided to put words the Bible attributes to the serpent, and put them in the mouth of 'God' in order to attack the behaviour of the church. I see a strong possibility of that backfiring. Whether I think Satan exists or not doesn't change the spirit of the words.

Ah, you're quoting the Sarah joke, do you even know what that means?

Quote from: CST on October 13, 2018, 01:47:29 PMI think the conversation is fiction and the use of such term gives away that it's fiction. For some reason the inventor has decided to put words the Bible attributes to the serpent, and put them in the mouth of 'God' in order to attack the behaviour of the church. I see a strong possibility of that backfiring. Whether I think Satan exists or not doesn't change the spirit of the words.
Ah, you're quoting the Sarah joke, do you even know what that means?

I don't know "the Sarah joke"-- what is it?
Do you think the evil spirit's remark here is fiction?:

Acts 19 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 13, 2018, 03:30:40 PM

Quote from: CST on October 13, 2018, 01:47:29 PMI think the conversation is fiction and the use of such term gives away that it's fiction. For some reason the inventor has decided to put words the Bible attributes to the serpent, and put them in the mouth of 'God' in order to attack the behaviour of the church. I see a strong possibility of that backfiring. Whether I think Satan exists or not doesn't change the spirit of the words.
Ah, you're quoting the Sarah joke, do you even know what that means?

I don't know "the Sarah joke"-- what is it?
Do you think the evil spirit's remark here is fiction?:

Acts 19 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

The Sarah joke is essentially that Sarah attempts to spy (eavesdrop) on God (who is omniscient) and then is embarrassed when He catches her at it.

Is the dialogue fiction? Before answering that question I'm like to know how the demon knows about Paul? If you cast out demons in Jesus's name that's the only name you need. The use of the name Paul suggests the doubt and insecurity of the exorcisor(?) which is probably the point here.

Quote from: CST on October 15, 2018, 02:34:50 PMIs the dialogue fiction? Before answering that question I'm like to know how the demon knows about Paul? If you cast out demons in Jesus's name that's the only name you need. The use of the name Paul suggests the doubt and insecurity of the exorcisor(?) which is probably the point here.

"how the demon knows about Paul?"
I'd think through observation and/or 'the grapevine.'

Acts 19 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV
9.  .... So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10 This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.  11 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.  13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

Do you think the evil spirit's remark above is fiction?

Quote from: DavidFord on October 17, 2018, 01:48:45 AM

Quote from: CST on October 15, 2018, 02:34:50 PMIs the dialogue fiction? Before answering that question I'm like to know how the demon knows about Paul? If you cast out demons in Jesus's name that's the only name you need. The use of the name Paul suggests the doubt and insecurity of the exorcisor(?) which is probably the point here.

"how the demon knows about Paul?"
I'd think through observation and/or 'the grapevine.'

Acts 19 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV
9.  .... So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10 This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.  11 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.  13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

Do you think the evil spirit's remark above is fiction?

No, no, you misunderstand. The speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul. Remember if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved. Do they know of Paul similarly?

If the demons are fallen angels as believed, they pre-existed the universe, because there's a verse which says or implies the angels clapped their hands at the creation..  :Chinscratch: have to look that up..

I think most things of the bible are not very involved, but we make them that way..

The verse - is in Job 38

God Challenges Job

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Quote from: marie glen on October 17, 2018, 05:12:53 PM
I think most things of the bible are not very involved, but we make them that way..

You're misunderstanding, the implication from Legion, if you believe in Legion which is hard because you have to get your head around the concept, is that the said demon recognizes Jesus in a very deep way from before it came to Earth and before the rebellion before anything. The demon will likely know things God doesn't see necessary to reveal to us at this stage. So does Paul's role in salvation equate to something equally big enough that a demon would know of him in a similar way?

I've removed your quote from Job although I'm not sure it means what you think it means. Certainly there's some dispute about when exactly God made the angels and lots of conflicting stories about that. Given that the passage you're quoting is entirely rhetorical I'm not sure how much historical information we should actually be able to glean from it.

 The New Testament mentions Satan 36 times in 33 verses - I would assume reading them all would shed light :thumbsup: :gsmile: since that's what the Bible is said to do, the Logos - "the entrance of your Word gives light".

And the Book of Revelation tells of "that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world", being thrown down to the Earth together with his angels.

there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,

8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;

9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;

11 and they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life -- unto death;

12 because of this be glad, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; wo to those inhabiting the land and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast forth to the earth, he pursued the woman who did bring forth the male, (manchild/son of man?)

  :dontknow: I'll see if I can read some of your points again to see if I can understand them. :Peace2: :girlheart:


P.S - is this all thought to be inner? Is that what metaphor is? All within? It's all about me after all..? "The kingdom of God is within  you" probably should have been translated, "the kingdom of God is among you" ..'cause He was there..

Quote from: marie glen on October 17, 2018, 09:59:59 PM
is this all thought to be inner? Is that what metaphor is? All within? It's all about me after all..? "The kingdom of God is within  you" probably should have been translated, "the kingdom of God is among you" ..'cause He was there..

That's great, I started a study today due to someone else's comment, so here is what I have so far:

"

QuoteEveryone waiting on a savior.. but the kingdom of God is within.

"


Well, of course the Kingdom is within. But it still awaits to be manifested, as the Sons of God await to be manifested.

Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male "sperm"); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.
Total KJV occurrences: 44

G4687
σπείρω
speirō
spi'-ro
Probably strengthened from G4685 (through the idea of extending); to scatter, that is, sow (literally or figuratively): - sow (-er), receive seed.
Total KJV occurrences: 53

G4685
σπάω
spaō
spah'-o
A primary verb; to draw: - draw (out).
Total KJV occurrences: 2

Mat 13:24  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field

Mar 4:14  The sower soweth the word. 

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 

YLT 1Jn 3:2  beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is

2Co 3:18  and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 

Col 3:4  when the Christ—our life—may be manifested, then also we with him shall be manifested in glory. 

Jas 1:23  because, if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, this one hath been like to a man viewing his natural face in a mirror, 
Jas 1:24  for he did view himself, and hath gone away, and immediately he did forget of what kind he was

G5590
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G5594

Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 

G616
ἀποκυέω
apokueō
Thayer Definition:
1) to bring forth
1a) from the womb
1b) give birth to
2) produce
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G575 and the base of G2949

You are either bringing forth sin and death when it is perfect, or Christ, when He perfects you."

Amen, "the seed" is Christ and He is in us.. But I see the wholeness of the Kingdom coming with Jesus and not only within. And if the kingdom is within all.. it's not just within as if someday there shall be no without.. I cannot see the Kingdom as being only in our hearts.. To me that's crazy talk. It may not be in the whole world yet.. but I believe will be. "The World is passing away... but we look for a new heavens and a new Earth.." Also Rev 21:1-5 (ch 21 & 22)

Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 07:14:19 PM

Quote from: marie glen on October 17, 2018, 05:12:53 PM
I think most things of the bible are not very involved, but we make them that way..

You're misunderstanding, the implication from Legion, if you believe in Legion which is hard because you have to get your head around the concept, is that the said demon recognizes Jesus in a very deep way from before it came to Earth and before the rebellion before anything. The demon will likely know things God doesn't see necessary to reveal to us at this stage. So does Paul's role in salvation equate to something equally big enough that a demon would know of him in a similar way?

I've removed your quote from Job although I'm not sure it means what you think it means. Certainly there's some dispute about when exactly God made the angels and lots of conflicting stories about that. Given that the passage you're quoting is entirely rhetorical I'm not sure how much historical information we should actually be able to glean from it.

Here's a verse I came across:

Matthew 26:53
Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

G#3003 legión - Same word as the one in the man in the tombs account, properly: a division of the Roman army, numbering about 6,000 infantry with additional cavalry; hence: a very large number; a legion

But, you believe this is a legion of evil thoughts? I'm sure that is also true..

( He casts out the demons by the ruler of demons

Quote from: marie glen on October 18, 2018, 12:04:11 AM
Amen, "the seed" is Christ and He is in us.. But I see the wholeness of the Kingdom coming with Jesus and not only within. And if the kingdom is within all.. it's not just within as if someday there shall be no without.. I cannot see the Kingdom as being only in our hearts.. To me that's crazy talk. It may not be in the whole world yet.. but I believe will be. "The World is passing away... but we look for a new heavens and a new Earth.." Also Rev 21:1-5 (ch 21 & 22)

I believe it is not only going to be within our hearts too, should have made that part clear.

Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 12:52:24 PMNo, no, you misunderstand. The speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul. Remember if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved. Do they know of Paul similarly?

Demons lie often; even if "the speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul," that doesn't necessarily mean that such "equity" actually existed.
"if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved"
References about demons:
knowing "about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth"? 
having "very involved" knowledge about Jesus?

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 17, 2018, 10:28:54 PM
Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male "sperm"); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.
Total KJV occurrences: 44

Semitic idiom: seed of _________ = descended from _________, literally or metaphorically

NT instances quoting Semites are less-impressive than narrative portions, e. g. Paul's use of the Semiticism in his letters to various churches.

1 Chronicles 16:13 (KJV)
O ye seed of Israel his servant,
ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
Job 5:25
Thou shalt know also that thy seed shall be great,
and thine offspring as the grass of the earth.
Job 21:8
Their seed is established in their sight with them,
and their offspring before their eyes.
Psalm 102:28
The children of thy servants shall continue,
and their seed shall be established before thee.
Psalm 105:6
O ye seed of Abraham his servant,
ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Isaiah 44:3
. . . . I will pour my spirit upon thy seed,
and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed,
he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Romans 9:29
And as Esaias said before,
Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
we had been as Sodoma,
and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law?
It was added because of transgressions,
till the seed should come to [about?] whom the promise was made;
and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

'SEED'/ AN OFFSPRING FOR A BROTHER

Matthew 22:24
Saying, Master, Moses said,
If a man die, having no children,
his brother shall marry his wife,
and raise up seed unto his brother.
Luke 20:28
Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us,
If any man's brother die, having a wife,
and he die without children,
that his brother should take his wife,
and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mark 12:19
Master, Moses wrote unto us,
If a man's brother die,
and leave his wife behind him,
and leave no children,
that his brother should take his wife,
and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mark 12:20
Now there were seven brethren:
and the first took a wife,
and dying left no seed.
Mark 12:21
And the second took her, and died,
neither left he any seed:
and the third likewise.
Mark 12:22
And the seven had her,
and left no seed:
last of all the woman died also.

Compare:

Genesis 38:8
And Judah said unto Onan,
Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her,
and raise up seed to thy brother.
Genesis 38:9
And Onan knew that the seed [offspring] should not be his;
and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife,
that he spilled it [his semen] on the ground,
lest that he should give seed to his brother.

ABRAHAM'S 'SEED'/ DESCENDANTS

Luke 1:55
As he spake to our fathers,
to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee
and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant,
to be a God unto thee,
and to thy seed after thee.
John 8:33
They answered him,
We be Abraham's seed,
and were never in bondage to any man:
how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:37
I know that ye are Abraham's seed;
but ye seek to kill me,
because my word hath no place in you.
Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets,
and of the covenant which God made with our fathers,
saying unto Abraham,
And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Acts 7:5
And he gave him none inheritance in it,
no, not so much as to set his foot on:
yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession,
and to his seed after him,
when as yet he had no child.
Deuteronomy 1:8
Behold, I have set the land before you:
go in and possess the land which
the Lord sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
to give unto them and to their seed after them.

Acts 7:6
And God spake on this wise, That
his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that
they should bring them into bondage,
and entreat them evil four hundred years.
Genesis 15:13
And he said unto Abram,
Know of a surety that
thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs,
and shall serve them;
and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world,
was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law,
but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;
to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;
not to that only which is of the law,
but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham;
who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope,
that he [Abraham] might become the father of many nations,
according to that which was spoken,
So shall thy seed be.
Romans 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,
are they all children: but,
In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh,
these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people?
God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite,
of the seed of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I.
Are they Israelites? so am I.
Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
He saith not, And to seeds, as of many;
but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's,
then are ye Abraham's seed,
and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 11:11
Through faith also Sara [Abraham's wife] herself received strength to conceive seed,
and was delivered of a child when she was past age,
because she judged him [God] faithful who had promised.
Genesis 17:19
And God said,
Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed;
and thou shalt call his name Isaac:
and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant,
and with his seed after him.
Hebrews 11:18
Of whom it was said, That
in Isaac shall thy [Abraham's] seed be called:

DAVID'S 'SEED'/ DESCENDANTS

John 7:42
Hath not the scripture said, That
Christ cometh of the seed of David,
and out of the town of Bethlehem,
where David was?
Acts 13:22
Of this man's [David's] seed hath God according to his promise
raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David
was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

1 Samuel 20:42
And Jonathan said to David,
Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn
both of us in the name of the Lord, saying,
The Lord be between me and thee,
and between my seed and thy seed for ever. . . . .
2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled,
and thou [David] shalt sleep with thy fathers,
I will set up thy seed after thee,
which shall proceed out of thy bowels,
and I will establish his kingdom.
2 Samuel 22:51
He is the tower of salvation for his king:
and sheweth mercy to his anointed,
unto David, and to his seed for evermore.

1 Kings 2:33
Their blood shall therefore return
upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever:
but upon David, and upon his seed,
and upon his house, and upon his throne,
shall there be peace for ever from the Lord.
1 Kings 11:39
And I will for this afflict the seed of David,
but not for ever.

Psalm 18:50
Great deliverance giveth he to his king;
and sheweth mercy to his anointed,
to David, and to his seed for evermore.

Jeremiah 33:22
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered,
neither the sand of the sea measured:
so will I multiply the seed of David my servant,
and the Levites that minister unto me.
Jeremiah 33:26
Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant,
so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers
over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:
for I will cause their captivity to return,
and have mercy on them.

'SEED' USED AS IN 'NATURE OF'
?: any parallels from the OT?

Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels;
but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again,
not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible,
by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 John 3:9 Note also the chiastic structure.
Whosoever is born of God
doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.

Not reading it all but I just wanted to quickly comment, when I (currently) view something as spiritual I don't think it's all about me or some flowy fake thing...I believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical. I don't know what it entails exactly but that's my current belief. If I say something may be individual or personal I do believe we are all connected and the salvation of all is collective. If for example things happen on an individual basis to people I think that doesn't exclude a big picture collective experience either. I think we all impact each other and Love is an outpouring and a self sacrificing and if some are closer to Christ they only desire to pull others to where they are as well. So individual doesn't have to mean selfish. Here on earth we are all individually living life but when Christ is in us it begins to cause us to want to help and love others. This I believe is only going to grow in us as we get closer to Him.

Well, in Quantum Physics there is something called entanglement, and basically it means that if I do something, it affects things around me, around the world, and even the other side of the universe. This happens even faster than the speed of light. Maybe you could say the speed of thought.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 03:07:12 AM

Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 12:52:24 PMNo, no, you misunderstand. The speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul. Remember if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved. Do they know of Paul similarly?

Demons lie often; even if "the speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul," that doesn't necessarily mean that such "equity" actually existed.
"if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved"
References about demons:
knowing "about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth"? 
having "very involved" knowledge about Jesus?

Again, you're missing the point. That dialogue, lie or not, it what the Bible reported and has to be treated as such.

Quote from: CST on October 18, 2018, 02:40:36 PM
Again, you're missing the point. That dialogue, lie or not, it what the Bible reported and has to be treated as such.

"That dialogue... has to be treated as" what, exactly?  (truth?  an entity's comment reported by the Bible?)
The Bible records many comments by various people, plus comments by demons and satan, and some of the comments are lies. Just because the Bible records that 'X said Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a truthful statement.

Amen, GodIsLove :thumbsup: I am only a little concerned with too much metaphor. Only little concerned because the whole world is smothered in untruth, but Jesus is still Lord. And because of the five words so poorly translated to read hell, metaphor is quite big in some UR/CU circles, which I think when too prevalent gives a bad name to ur. If the literal straight forward could just be included.. so it can make sense to hearers. I’ve read u.r. belief referred to, quite a few times, as gobbly gook or such but if the dialog included more scripture and more down to earth understanding, to go along with, the metaphor or spiritual application of everything.. I try not to get too zealous and to be courteous, but  :dontknow: :gsmile:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 18, 2018, 06:10:45 AM
Well, in Quantum Physics there is something called entanglement, and basically it means that if I do something, it affects things around me, around the world, and even the other side of the universe. This happens even faster than the speed of light. Maybe you could say the speed of thought.

I simply am concerned about too much metaphor, as a lot of it I think comes close to disagreeing with the straight out reading.

I know things happen within. I guess I’ve developed a kind of opinion (or observation?) as traveling to different forums that lots of folks because of the 5 poorly translated words into hell, they now distrust the Bible. Which I think is bound to lead to a loosing of the truth.. As the heart is deceitful so if truth becomes something we find in ourself..

Of course it does complicate things that the Holy Spirit guides us and of course it’s a within and inner thing, lol.

I think that’s why the (tip? of the) sword of truth is what it takes to separate true thread from untrue thread. The world is so flooded with ideas and theory. And people seeking..

“Law of entanglement” :thumbsup: & everything has the tendency to grow. If we know the word - “thy word is truth” - we can prune the buds of untruth that sprout within us.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:48:35 PM

Quote from: CST on October 18, 2018, 02:40:36 PM
Again, you're missing the point. That dialogue, lie or not, it what the Bible reported and has to be treated as such.

"That dialogue... has to be treated as" what, exactly?  (truth?  an entity's comment reported by the Bible?)
The Bible records many comments by various people, plus comments by demons and satan, and some of the comments are lies. Just because the Bible records that 'X said Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a truthful statement.

Like the example of Elisha and the children and bears? It's recorded, and Elisha was a servant of God at the time.. but was it God inspired? Or even God approves?

Logic tells me no. But atheists, and even newer believers? worry over it.. (logos/logic hand in hand)

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 18, 2018, 06:02:10 AM
Not reading it all but I just wanted to quickly comment, when I (currently) view something as spiritual I don't think it's all about me or some flowy fake thing...I believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical.

Quote
http://www.bible-researcher.com/luke17.21.html

"The new rendering is used only because the translators think it is theologically impossible that Jesus would say that the Kingdom of God is "within" people...

Here Christ is obviously contrasting the outward appearance (μετὰ παρατηρήσεως "with observation," v. 20) with the inner spiritual reality of God's rule...

Moreover, as S.C. Carpenter explains, "For 'among' S. Luke would have said ἐν μέσῳ, which occurs seven times in his Gospel (see especially xxii. 27) and four times in Acts...""

Edit...

Possibly one for you David, the Syriac link is no longer working?

QuoteThe Kingdom of God is inside you.' The Ancient Syriac Versions in Support of the Correct Translation

Yes but is it destined to be only within? The Greek spans, as we know kind of wide, in this case is within, among and in the midst. Context of course would likely give more sense of which was the Lord's intent when he said it.

The problem I have is if the kingdom is thought to be only within, the heart is deceitful so I figure there has to be something outward that is the measure of what's true and what isn't. If each person's interpretation in their heart is truth.. what if it all differs from heart to heart? And is that what Jesus meant when he said make disciples..

P.s. by context surely could be within.. but if the kingdom is only within, that to me would be an extreme. So that there is the view there is no literal application of the Bible accounts, and it's all only spiritual, that's the only thing I think is misleading.
:Peace2:

And could lead to the idea visions, etc trump the Bible.

Quote from: lastpost on October 18, 2018, 05:47:25 PM
the Syriac link is no longer working?

I looked a little at http://dukhrana.com and saw only 'within you.'

Ilaria Ramelli, "Luke 17:21: 'The Kingdom of God is inside you.' The Ancient Syriac Versions in Support of the Correct Translation," Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies 12/2 (Summer 2009), pp. 259-286.
https://www.scribd.com/document/369869085/The-Kingdom-of-God-is-Inside-You-pdf
In this study I contend that in Luke 17:21 the right translation of Jesus' words is not, "God's Kingdom is among you," or "in the midst of you," as modern versions into English and other languages generally render, but "God's Kingdom is inside you."  Strong support for the latter comes from ancient Syriac versions of this and other Gospel passages, from a systematic investigation of the meaning of e)nto/j in all of Greek literature anterior to, and contemporary with, Luke, and  from a careful analysis of the expression e)nto/ j  + genitive in the New Testament and the Septuagint.  I argue that, if the evangelist had meant "The Kingdom of God is among you," he would have used, not e)nto\j  u(mw= n, but e)n me/ sw| u(mw= n, which is widely attested in this meaning in the New Testament and especially in Luke.  Moreover, the translation that I advocate and that the Syriac versions support fits better in the immediate context of an address to the Pharisees and in Luke's theology and conception of God's Kingdom, and is also corroborated by a Kingdom logion in the Gospel of Thomas and by Greek and Syriac Patristic exegesis.

In Luke 17:21 Jesus is asked when the Kingdom of God will come, and he replies:
Ou)k e1rxetai h( basilei/a tou= Qeou= meta\ parathrh/sewj, ou)de\ e)rou=sin: i)dou\ w{de, h1: e)kei=: i)dou\ ga\r h( basilei/a tou= Qeou= e)nto\j u(mw=n e)stin,
"The Kingdom of God does not come when people are spying on it, nor will they say, 'Behold, it is here,' or 'there;' for the Kingdom of God is entos humôn." 
No variant readings are attested for e)nto\j u(mw=n, an expression which modern translations generally render "among you," meaning either that the Kingdom is not in the political and military structures of the world, but only in the community of believers, or that the Kingdom is there and is represented by Jesus. 

But I shall argue that the right translation is "inside you," and that the ancient Syriac versions, together with many other elements, strongly support this interpretation.  This saying of Jesus may have been preserved originally in Aramaic, in which case e)nto/j might be a translation of וַגּ  / וגּ, meaning "interior," and, in the prepositional construct וֹ ְבּ, "inside."  It is related to the Hebrew noun וֵגּ, וַגּ, meaning "interior, inside," and to Syriac  ܓ,   ܓ meaning "the inside, the inner parts," which, as I shall show, also appears in the Peshi+ta and the Harklean version of this logion of Jesus. 

Let us see, first of all, the current translations. The Revised Standard Version and the Darby Bible both render: "For behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you"; the New Revised Standard Version, which is highly influential, likewise translates:  "For, in fact, the Kingdom of God is among you."  The Bible in Basic English is almost identical:  "For the Kingdom of God is among you." The French Bible de Jérusalem (1973) similarly runs: "Car voici que le Royaume de Dieu est au milieu de vous"; the Louis Segond version renders:  "Car voici, le royaume de Dieu est au milieu de vous"; the Spanish Bíblia en lenguaje sencillo (2000) offers an analogous translation: "Porque el reino de Dios ya está entre ustedes," which is very similar to that already provided by the old Reina-Valera version: "porque he aquí el reino de Dios está entre vosotros." The Italian CEI translation (that of the Italian Episcopal Conference, which is the standard Italian version) also has: "il Regno di Dio è in mezzo a voi."  All these modern translations fully agree in understanding the Greek as meaning: "the Kingdom of God is among you."  Modern commentators generally....

Quote from: marie glen on October 18, 2018, 05:39:55 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:48:35 PM
The Bible records many comments by various people, plus comments by demons and satan, and some of the comments are lies. Just because the Bible records that 'X said Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a truthful statement.

Like the example of Elisha and the children and bears? It's recorded, and Elisha was a servant of God at the time.. but was it God inspired? Or even God approves?
Logic tells me no. But atheists, and even newer believers? worry over it.. (logos/logic hand in hand)

The Bible records many actions by various people, plus actions by demons and satan, and many of the actions are sinful.  Just because the Bible records that 'X did Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a moral/ God-approved action.

E.g., the Bible records that that 'man after God's own heart,' King David, committed adultery and murder, actions that God didn't inspire and didn't approve of.
The Bible records that Peter killed Ananias and Sapphira.  I doubt God inspired Peter to kill them, and doubt God approved of Peter's killing them.
The Bible records that Elisha cursed some youths that mocked him, and got 42 youths mauled.  I doubt God inspired Elisha to have them mauled, and doubt God approved of Elisha's getting them them mauled.

Elisha's having 42 kids mauled
2 Kings 2:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" 24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Do you think Elisha having 42 kids mauled was:  applauded by God the Father?  applauded by Jesus?  applauded by the Spirit of Holiness?

Ananias and wife Sapphira
Acts 5:1-11 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/acts/5.htm
1One man whose name was Khanan-Yah, with his wife, whose name was Shappira, had sold his field. 2And he took some of its price and concealed it while his wife was aware of it, and he brought some of the money and placed it before the Apostles' feet. 3And Shimeon said to Khanan-Yah, "Why has Satan filled your heart to cheat The Spirit of Holiness and to hide some money of the proceeds of the field?" 4Was it not yours until it was sold? And after it was sold, again you had power over its proceeds. Why have you set your heart to do this thing? You have not cheated men but God." 5And when Khanan-Yah heard these words, he dropped dead and great fear came upon all those who heard. 6And young men among them arose and gathered him up, and they took him out and buried him.
7And after three hours had passed, his wife also entered, not knowing what had happened. 8Shimeon said to her, "Tell me if for these proceeds you sold the field." But she said, "Yes, for these proceeds." 9Shimeon said to her, "Because you have agreed to tempt The Spirit of THE LORD JEHOVAH, behold the feet of those who buried your husband are at the door and they will take you out." 10And at that moment she fell before their feet and died, and those young men came in and found her dead. And they took her up and brought her out and buried her beside her husband. 11And there was great fear upon the entire church among all those who heard.

Do you think Peter having Ananias and Sapphira killed was:  applauded by God the Father?  applauded by Jesus?  applauded by the Spirit of Holiness?
Are you OK with Peter's killing Ananias and Sapphira?  If 'yes':  suppose they had 2 kids, and Peter killed their father Ananias-- would you be OK with that?

Do you think Jesus is in the business of killing people?

Luke 9 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/luke/9.htm
52 And he sent messengers before his presence and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans so as to prepare for him. 53 And they did not receive him because his person was determined to go to Jerusalem. 54 And when Yaqob and Yohannan his disciples saw it, they were saying to him, "Our Lord, do you want us to speak and fire will descend from Heaven, and will consume them as Elijah also did?" 55 And he turned and he rebuked them and he said, "You do not know of which Spirit you are." 56 "For The Son of Man has not come to destroy lives but to give life." And they went to other villages.

John 10 (from Aramaic, based on Younan)
9. ENA-NA [I AM] the Gate,
and if a man should enter by me he will live
and will enter and go out and he will find pasture.
10. A thief does not come but that (he) may steal and kill and destroy.
I have come that they may have life,
and they may have something which is abundant.

John 8:44
You are from the abba [father] Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter].
And the lusts of your father you want to do,
he who from the beginning killed men.
And he does not stand in truth
because there is no truth in him.
When he speaks a falsehood,
he speaks from himself
because he (is) a liar, even its father.

That's typically how I understand those passages and more that show things contrary to God's nature revealed through his son Jesus the Christ.

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 18, 2018, 06:02:10 AMI believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical.  ....Love is an outpouring and a self sacrificing and if some are closer to Christ they only desire to pull others to where they are as well.  ....when Christ is in us it begins to cause us to want to help and love others. This I believe is only going to grow in us as we get closer to Him.

"believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical"
Attempts to make sense of some passages while looking at http://dukhrana.com appear below.

2Cor 4:16-18
For this reason, we do not grow weary;
for though our outward man wastes away/ is corrupted/ perishes/ dies/ is destroyed,
yet the inner man is renewed/ renovated day by day.
For while the trouble/ affliction/ tribulation/ oppression of the present time/ season/ period/ era [d'zbna] are momentary/ little/ very small and light,
a great limitless [d'la:  that not, + ska:  end, summation, limit] glory is prepared for us l'ailm ailmin [to the:  age ages, or:  world worlds].

That we rejoice/ gladden not (at) these seen/beholden (things),
but rather (at) these (things) that (are) not seen/beholden.
Now we judge that the seen/beholden time/season/period/era,
that (will) not (be) seen/beholden.  [IOW, we conclude/consider that the currently-seen season/era won't be seen-- it's temporary]
But we judge d'l'ailm [of to the world(s)/age(s)].  [IOW, but we instead consider/ponder the things of the upcoming world(s)/age(s)]

Romans 8:28
But/ now/ yet I know/recognize that in everything/ all things/ circumstances, Allaha helps/ aids/ works for good to those who love him, those whom he purposed/ set/ determined/ destined before that they would be called/ appealed to.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 20, 2018, 06:14:51 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 18, 2018, 06:02:10 AMI believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical.  ....Love is an outpouring and a self sacrificing and if some are closer to Christ they only desire to pull others to where they are as well.  ....when Christ is in us it begins to cause us to want to help and love others. This I believe is only going to grow in us as we get closer to Him.

"believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical"
Attempts to make sense of some passages while looking at http://dukhrana.com appear below.

2Cor 4:16-18
For this reason, we do not grow weary;
for though our outward man wastes away/ is corrupted/ perishes/ dies/ is destroyed,
yet the inner man is renewed/ renovated day by day.
For while the trouble/ affliction/ tribulation/ oppression of the present time/ season/ period/ era [d'zbna] are momentary/ little/ very small and light,
a great limitless [d'la:  that not, + ska:  end, summation, limit] glory is prepared for us l'ailm ailmin [to the:  age ages, or:  world worlds].

That we rejoice/ gladden not (at) these seen/beholden (things),
but rather (at) these (things) that (are) not seen/beholden.
Now we judge that the seen/beholden time/season/period/era,
that (will) not (be) seen/beholden.  [IOW, we conclude/consider that the currently-seen season/era won't be seen-- it's temporary]
But we judge d'l'ailm [of to the world(s)/age(s)].  [IOW, but we instead consider/ponder the things of the upcoming world(s)/age(s)]

Romans 8:28
But/ now/ yet I know/recognize that in everything/ all things/ circumstances, Allaha helps/ aids/ works for good to those who love him, those whom he purposed/ set/ determined/ destined before that they would be called/ appealed to.

:thumbsup:

The reality being we are seated in heavenly places with Him.. :thumbsup: :cloud9:

Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 02:48:35 PM

Quote from: CST on October 18, 2018, 02:40:36 PM
Again, you're missing the point. That dialogue, lie or not, it what the Bible reported and has to be treated as such.

"That dialogue... has to be treated as" what, exactly?  (truth?  an entity's comment reported by the Bible?)
The Bible records many comments by various people, plus comments by demons and satan, and some of the comments are lies. Just because the Bible records that 'X said Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a truthful statement.

I can't see anything in what the demon says that could be a lie or would be meaningful if it was. If the demon says they know Paul and they don't it might cause us to question the veracity of Paul as an apostle and I don't think anyone expects it to be read that way.

Quote from: marie glen on October 18, 2018, 04:57:20 PM
Amen, GodIsLove :thumbsup: I am only a little concerned with too much metaphor. Only little concerned because the whole world is smothered in untruth, but Jesus is still Lord. And because of the five words so poorly translated to read hell, metaphor is quite big in some UR/CU circles, which I think when too prevalent gives a bad name to ur. If the literal straight forward could just be included.. so it can make sense to hearers. I've read u.r. belief referred to, quite a few times, as gobbly gook or such but if the dialog included more scripture and more down to earth understanding, to go along with, the metaphor or spiritual application of everything.. I try not to get too zealous and to be courteous, but  :dontknow: :gsmile:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 18, 2018, 06:10:45 AM
Well, in Quantum Physics there is something called entanglement, and basically it means that if I do something, it affects things around me, around the world, and even the other side of the universe. This happens even faster than the speed of light. Maybe you could say the speed of thought.

I simply am concerned about too much metaphor, as a lot of it I think comes close to disagreeing with the straight out reading.

I know things happen within. I guess I've developed a kind of opinion (or observation?) as traveling to different forums that lots of folks because of the 5 poorly translated words into hell, they now distrust the Bible. Which I think is bound to lead to a loosing of the truth.. As the heart is deceitful so if truth becomes something we find in ourself..

Of course it does complicate things that the Holy Spirit guides us and of course it's a within and inner thing, lol.

I think that's why the (tip? of the) sword of truth is what it takes to separate true thread from untrue thread. The world is so flooded with ideas and theory. And people seeking..

"Law of entanglement" :thumbsup: & everything has the tendency to grow. If we know the word - "thy word is truth" - we can prune the buds of untruth that sprout within us.

Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work. 

John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Quote from: CST on October 20, 2018, 06:00:44 PM
Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work.

Well, I think in a literal sense, Jesus is the Word of God, as He is the Spokesman of the Father. Jesus speaks the words of the Father. Scripture is fulfilled in a literal way too. One example? Science. And, other prophesies that are being fulfilled literally too. It is only past generations that had no faith and expectation that Scripture prophesies would be fulfilled in a literal way, that they took everything super Spiritually that did not apply to reality.

We are shown plainly what it means by the Holy Spirit, not by what someone else says what it means. Sure, God may use someone to show us an aspect of it, but it is ultimately through revelation that we know.

Quote from: CST on October 20, 2018, 06:00:44 PM

Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work. 

The rapture is based on the word harpazo/catching away.. Which "catching away" occurs (imo) when Jesus returns.. "the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive, remain", [the words, elsewhere being "immediately after the tribulation/troubles of that day.." Mt 24] .."will meet Him at His coming" 1 Thess 4 - "when He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8

Is His coming and 2nd advent also metaphor? What about His first coming? The creation account? The virgin birth?

I'm just curious.. :Peace2:


I believe the Holy Spirit lightens and reveals, but I also believe we can read and understand some by the reasoning ability God has endowed us with. Like if I read Jesus walked down the road.. I can understand that.. and I don't need to wait for a hidden meaning, there may or may not be a hidden meaning.. I think a believer could possibly get so caught up in hidden meanings and secret knowledge, they can't see the forest for the trees.. (I believe everything under the sun can potentially become an extreme.)

Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 09:36:43 PM
The rapture is based on the word harpazo/catching away.. Which "catching away" occurs (imo) when Jesus returns.. "the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive, remain", [the words, elsewhere being "immediately after the tribulation/troubles of that day.." Mt 24] .."will meet Him at His coming" 1 Thess 4 - "when He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8
Is His coming and 2nd advent also metaphor? What about His first coming? The creation account? The virgin birth?

I've not researched the matter, but have heard that the rapture idea is only about 200 years old.
Jesus lived on earth for 33 years.  It wouldn't surprise me if Jesus returned in A.D. 70-- I think it's a distinct possibility he did return then.  If someone thinks God doesn't exist, then it'd be easy for that person to say the creation account is metaphorical.  If someone thinks miracles don't occur, then he might chalk the virgin birth account up to metaphor or bogusness.

Speaking of the rapture, there won't be a rapture. I think there will be a "catching up in the air." The people who believe in the rapture have a wrong view of suffering, etc. They think that all suffering is there because God somehow hates everyone, and His anger is gonna blow up. The real purpose of suffering is to humble us. Do I know ultimately why? No, I see through the mirror darkly. The best thing I can do is to trust in Him, and know that He is in control, and knows what He is doing.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 

Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us; 
Rom 8:19  for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; 
Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject—not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it —in hope, 
Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; 
Rom 8:22  for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now. 

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Judgement teaches righteousness, it is used to correct someone, and not out of hatred. This false idea of God is why so many live in fear of God, and not truly loving Him.

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Total KJV occurrences: 13

A couple other verses with "caught up"

2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 

I see the other verses, mentioning when someone leaves, like when the Bride goes to meet Jesus, they always return to where they came from. So in this case, once those people are caught up, they're coming back down.

No one has received their Spiritual Body yet, and certainly not in 70AD. I see the manifestation of the Sons of God, revealing Christ to the world, and when the world learns righteousness.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 22, 2018, 04:51:38 AM

Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 09:36:43 PM
The rapture is based on the word harpazo/catching away.. Which "catching away" occurs (imo) when Jesus returns.. "the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive, remain", [the words, elsewhere being "immediately after the tribulation/troubles of that day.." Mt 24] .."will meet Him at His coming" 1 Thess 4 - "when He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8
Is His coming and 2nd advent also metaphor? What about His first coming? The creation account? The virgin birth?

I've not researched the matter, but have heard that the rapture idea is only about 200 years old.
Jesus lived on earth for 33 years.  It wouldn't surprise me if Jesus returned in A.D. 70-- I think it's a distinct possibility he did return then.  If someone thinks God doesn't exist, then it'd be easy for that person to say the creation account is metaphorical.  If someone thinks miracles don't occur, then he might chalk the virgin birth account up to metaphor or bogusness.

Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.

I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.

I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities. And once I had the thought that the punishments of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil are very similar to the "consequences" of us having larger brains: women do suffer more during childbearing compared to other animals because of our large head size compared to their pelvis. And there are a lot of ties to agriculture and brain development and this was mentioned as another consequence:

Genesis 3

16To the woman he said,

"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

I read that the creation account is not meant to be scientific but instead is meant to show that God created all things and they were good (in contrast to other creation myths of multiple Gods and other stories of how the world came to be via negative means)...and it shows generally how humankind fell from grace and how we are continuing to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil because both are mixed in this plane of existence, whereas in spiritual realms like is attracted to like and there is a separation of light and darkness.

Genesis 1:4 NIV
God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

So I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140612114310-117953348-second-coming-of-christ-misunderstood

Interesting article

If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

I think it's important to understand the 2nd coming and the millennium (2nd advent of Jesus?) whether past? present? or future?

I read too that what's called the rapture (theory) came about approximately 200 years ago or so.. The same movement, I believe, ended up with the Scofield Reference Bible and the idea of Revelation belonging in a box called 7 years I believe there is a 7 years, but not the way it's taught (key word taught). And the teaching of what's called a 7 year tribulation, which teachers believe is supported by scripture.

The only way to understand these things of course is to pray, and to yield.

Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, were of course fulfilled in 70 a.d. with the question being, I assume, is does it (and other prophecy?) have parallel fulfillment, one being local and immediate, and one being broad and climactic or 'end time' as they say (as part of an 'ending' of the story?)

And another question, I think, is, does it matter?
   :Peace2:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 20, 2018, 06:27:05 PM
John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Quote from: CST on October 20, 2018, 06:00:44 PM
Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work.

Well, I think in a literal sense, Jesus is the Word of God, as He is the Spokesman of the Father. Jesus speaks the words of the Father. Scripture is fulfilled in a literal way too. One example? Science. And, other prophesies that are being fulfilled literally too. It is only past generations that had no faith and expectation that Scripture prophesies would be fulfilled in a literal way, that they took everything super Spiritually that did not apply to reality.

We are shown plainly what it means by the Holy Spirit, not by what someone else says what it means. Sure, God may use someone to show us an aspect of it, but it is ultimately through revelation that we know.

Hmm, I suggest that if you think Jesus is the 'Word of God' in any literal sense it goes to explain a lot because it suggests that you don't know what it means to say that something is literal compared to allegorical.

Jesus, according to what we believe was born as a human around 0AD and lived on Earth in ancient Israel for about three decades during this time He was literally human, that is to say he was an actual human being who interacted with other human beings and had to do all the things other human beings have to do including many of the things we find unpalatable and would rather we didn't have to do. He spoke to people about God and what He said can be called the Word of God. But He, Himself is not literally the Word of God because He's not the sound wave that conveys the words from tongue to ear or the ink that records the words on the page or the pixels that display it on a computer screen.

Unless you want to go so far as to point out He's also every atom in the sun and every molecule in our blood at which point the concept of the literal and the allegorical becomes a bit meaningless. Jesus is the Word of God but only if you recognize that's a very expanded metaphor.

But yes we are, in theory, we are shown what it means by the Holy Spirit but some people think they are shown that it says almost everyone will go to Hell for all of endless time so one person's 'shown by the Holy Spirit' is someone else's 'heresy'.

Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 09:36:43 PM

Quote from: CST on October 20, 2018, 06:00:44 PM

Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work. 

The rapture is based on the word harpazo/catching away.. Which "catching away" occurs (imo) when Jesus returns.. "the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive, remain", [the words, elsewhere being "immediately after the tribulation/troubles of that day.." Mt 24] .."will meet Him at His coming" 1 Thess 4 - "when He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8

Is His coming and 2nd advent also metaphor? What about His first coming? The creation account? The virgin birth?

I'm just curious.. :Peace2:


I believe the Holy Spirit lightens and reveals, but I also believe we can read and understand some by the reasoning ability God has endowed us with. Like if I read Jesus walked down the road.. I can understand that.. and I don't need to wait for a hidden meaning, there may or may not be a hidden meaning.. I think a believer could possibly get so caught up in hidden meanings and secret knowledge, they can't see the forest for the trees.. (I believe everything under the sun can potentially become an extreme.)

Why some Christians came to believe incorrectly in the rapture isn't the point at the moment, the point is they do believe in it and they do so because they're cowards. They think, probably correctly, that kif the Beast from the Sea rocked up they would be unable to resist it like the 144 000 but they are good and righteous so God will rapture them away before they have to make the choice to give their lives, literally, for God which they don't feel well to do.

MusicLover's observation is also correct of this, they hate sin and sinners they think God hates sin and sinners and believe that only sinful sinner deserve to suffer such. The God they believe in is their ally, he would never see them, his innocent servants, suffer unjustly. The fact God's greatest and most innocent servant suffered and for them suggest thqat God doesn't protect people like that never crosses their mind.

Ok, I believe Jesus advent is literal and believe His second coming is also a literal event but may be described allegorically in the Bible. I believe in the virgin birth, I tend not to doubt records of God's action in the world unless I feel they're very difficult.

I think the creation is allegorical but their may be spiritual plains on which it somehow occurred but it can't be historical as it contradicts science.

Your use of God given reason is bizarre, your basically saying that you can understand the Bible because you have a God-given capacity for language and speak English and can understand the Bible if it is written in English (or any other language you speak) but remember, the ET and ED crowds speak English too. They read the same Bibles and come to different conclusions, they then translate those Bibles according to their own conclusions. They may even define words according to those conclusions. Remember we a taught God confused our languages and all the languages we have are limited in their capacity to explain and describe things, when we try to describe them they become more problematic. To say you understand the words something doesn't mean anything, Christs enemies could understand you words of the parables He spoke but they still couldn't understand what He was saying that's the whole point.

Your belief that the whole Bible is a literal, historical record except where it clearly isn't is a subjective choice, an act of faith on your part if you like, it's not an objective fact. But I agree you can try to discern hidden meaning to the point it become meaningless, indeed to the point it becomes idolatry because it distracts you from God.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 22, 2018, 05:42:43 AM
Speaking of the rapture, there won't be a rapture. I think there will be a "catching up in the air." The people who believe in the rapture have a wrong view of suffering, etc. They think that all suffering is there because God somehow hates everyone, and His anger is gonna blow up. The real purpose of suffering is to humble us. Do I know ultimately why? No, I see through the mirror darkly. The best thing I can do is to trust in Him, and know that He is in control, and knows what He is doing.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

When I read that passage I can't help thinking: 'And what of those who don't love God (and so, presumably, aren't called according to His purpose) which very obviously exist. I'm not sure we can claim all things work together for good for them, the Bible doesn't support that.

Quote from: marie glen on October 22, 2018, 07:03:49 PM
If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

Only if you think of 'death' merely as 'dropping dead' at the end of life (whenever that occurs) the Bible and human attitudes and experience present death as being much more complicated than that. Does the state of being a Christian is a paradox, the end of Christain belief is death and we cannot complete our Christian sojourn unless we die. But, of course, we still don't want to die and consider it hugely tragic when people die. Death is very complicated to us, I doubt it is so to the 'lower' animals.

Quote from: marie glen on October 22, 2018, 07:27:42 PM
I think it's important to understand the 2nd coming and the millennium (2nd advent of Jesus?) whether past? present? or future?

I read too that what's called the rapture (theory) came about approximately 200 years ago or so.. The same movement, I believe, ended up with the Scofield Reference Bible and the idea of Revelation belonging in a box called 7 years I believe there is a 7 years, but not the way it's taught (key word taught). And the teaching of what's called a 7 year tribulation, which teachers believe is supported by scripture.

The only way to understand these things of course is to pray, and to yield.

Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, were of course fulfilled in 70 a.d. with the question being, I assume, is does it (and other prophecy?) have parallel fulfillment, one being local and immediate, and one being broad and climactic or 'end time' as they say (as part of an 'ending' of the story?)

And another question, I think, is, does it matter?
   :Peace2:

Since we're probably still required to 'stay awake', yes it matters.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 22, 2018, 05:42:43 AMThe real purpose of suffering is to humble us. Do I know ultimately why? No, I see through the mirror darkly. The best thing I can do is to trust in Him, and know that He is in control, and knows what He is doing.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;
Rom 8:19  for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject—not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it —in hope,
Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Rom 8:22  for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Judgement teaches righteousness, it is used to correct someone, and not out of hatred. This false idea of God is why so many live in fear of God, and not truly loving Him.

Psalm 119:71
https://biblehub.com/psalms/119-71.htm
My suffering was good for me, for it taught me to pay attention to your decrees. (New Living Translation)
It was good for me to be afflicted so that I could learn Your statutes. (HCSB) 
It is good for me that I have been humbled that I may learn your commandments. (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 22, 2018, 02:35:28 PM
Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.
I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.
I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities.  ....I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 03:34:52 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 22, 2018, 02:35:28 PM
Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.
I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.
I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities.  ....I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

I believe this as well. Some Christians do not.

Quote from: marie glen on October 22, 2018, 07:03:49 PM
If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

Humans are very different creatures than apes, monkeys, etc.  It's not the case that a population of apes transformed into a population of humans. 
Bacteria are living and dying regularly in my gut.  It seems to me that Adam and Eve also had gut bacteria inside them, and many bacteria died before The Fall.
Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death, in that their relationship with God was severely damaged.  After the Fall, if they'd managed to eat of the Tree of Life, they'd have avoided physical death.

Genesis 3 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Quote from: marie glen on October 22, 2018, 07:27:42 PM
Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, were of course fulfilled in 70 a.d. with the question being, I assume, is does it (and other prophecy?) have parallel fulfillment, one being local and immediate, and one being broad and climactic or 'end time' as they say (as part of an 'ending' of the story?)

What are all the instances of "parallel fulfillment, one being local and immediate, and one being broad and climactic or 'end time'" that you're aware of?

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 24, 2018, 04:04:20 AM
I believe this as well. Some Christians do not.

Unfortunately, far too many Christians unnecessarily have a young-earth, young-universe position.  The geological and astronomical evidence that the earth and universe had a very long history is overwhelming.

_Creation and Evolution: Rethinking the Evidence from Science and the Bible_ by Alan Hayward
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556616791/

_Navigating Genesis: A Scientist's Journey through Genesis 1-11_ by Hugh Ross
https://www.amazon.com/Navigating-Genesis-Scientists-Journey-through/dp/1886653860/

Quote from: CST on October 23, 2018, 05:30:23 PM

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 20, 2018, 06:27:05 PM
Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

When I read that passage I can't help thinking: 'And what of those who don't love God (and so, presumably, aren't called according to His purpose) which very obviously exist. I'm not sure we can claim all things work together for good for them, the Bible doesn't support that.

Perhaps those who presently don't love God will, at some future point, love God.  God calls all people to come to him; some come quickly, while others like the prodigal son have to 'hit rock bottom' before coming to God.

John 12:32 (KJV)  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=we+love+god&qs_version=KJV
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Rev 22:17 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+22&version=NIV
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" 
And let the one who hears say, "Come!" 
Let the one who is thirsty come;
and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 03:34:52 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 22, 2018, 02:35:28 PM
Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.
I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.
I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities.  ....I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 04:38:08 AM

Quote from: marie glen on October 22, 2018, 07:03:49 PM
If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

Humans are very different creatures than apes, monkeys, etc.  It's not the case that a population of apes transformed into a population of humans. 
Bacteria are living and dying regularly in my gut.  It seems to me that Adam and Eve also had gut bacteria inside them, and many bacteria died before The Fall.
Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death, in that their relationship with God was severely damaged.  After the Fall, if they'd managed to eat of the Tree of Life, they'd have avoided physical death.

Genesis 3 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Wow, I think you've just written something I agree with, a number of people deny the concept of Spiritual Death because the phrase doesn't appear in the Bible but what it refers to, Man's alienation from God due to sin, is recorded numerous times in the Bible.

Quote from: CST on October 24, 2018, 11:36:31 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 03:34:52 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 22, 2018, 02:35:28 PM
Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.
I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.
I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities.  ....I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 04:38:08 AM

Quote from: marie glen on October 22, 2018, 07:03:49 PM
If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

Humans are very different creatures than apes, monkeys, etc.  It's not the case that a population of apes transformed into a population of humans. 
Bacteria are living and dying regularly in my gut.  It seems to me that Adam and Eve also had gut bacteria inside them, and many bacteria died before The Fall.
Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death, in that their relationship with God was severely damaged.  After the Fall, if they'd managed to eat of the Tree of Life, they'd have avoided physical death.

Genesis 3 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Wow, I think you've just written something I agree with, a number of people deny the concept of Spiritual Death because the phrase doesn't appear in the Bible but what it refers to, Man's alienation from God due to sin, is recorded numerous times in the Bible.

Yes spiritual death is my belief about that passage as well. I started a thread about it somewhat recently, and I supported the idea with verses elsewhere in the Bible.

Not only bacteria, but cells die within our bodies. If Adam and Eve ate plants then yes they had to have gut bacteria to digest them.

Quote from: CST on October 24, 2018, 11:36:31 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 03:34:52 AM
I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

The universe is about 15,000,000,000 years old.

In British English, a billion used to be equivalent to a million million (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000), while in American English it has always equated to a thousand million (i.e. 1,000,000,000). British English has now adopted the American figure, though, so that a billion equals a thousand million in both varieties of English.

So they are the same now it seems. I never heard that there was a difference.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 02:27:54 PM

Quote from: CST on October 24, 2018, 11:36:31 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 03:34:52 AM
I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

The universe is about 15,000,000,000 years old.

Then death came before sin?

Quote from: marie glen on October 24, 2018, 05:08:32 PM
Then death came before sin?

Before human sin, I'd say yes:  physical death of plants and animals preceded The Fall.  E.g., dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, while humans sinned much more recently.  satan and his fellow angelic rebels sinned before Adam sinned.

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 24, 2018, 03:09:11 PM
In British English, a billion used to be equivalent to a million million (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000), while in American English it has always equated to a thousand million (i.e. 1,000,000,000). British English has now adopted the American figure, though, so that a billion equals a thousand million in both varieties of English.

So they are the same now it seems. I never heard that there was a difference.

Do you think that might be because the American billion more suitable for this figure. If the universe is not even a British billion years old there hardly seems to be much use for the number.

Quote from: marie glen on October 24, 2018, 05:08:32 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 02:27:54 PM

Quote from: CST on October 24, 2018, 11:36:31 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 03:34:52 AM
I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

The universe is about 15,000,000,000 years old.

Then death came before sin?

In a manner of speaking, but remember sin did produce estrangement from God of all nature because of our wickedness that death did follow sin. It shouldn't be surprising, night has followed day from the beginning (kind of) why should death be absent from the darkness?

If humans evolved from primates.. that means death came before sin, which to me/imo, contradicts God's account and statements.. Of how sin brought death.. as Romans 5:12 says "just as sin entered into the world through one man."

It also says, Genesis 1:27, He created "bara" man and woman in His image and likeness, not they gradually came to be in His image and likeness. And the word "bara" is the same as written in Genesis 1:1 in the beginning God created, shaped, formed the heavens and the Earth..

The 7 days may indeed be a pattern or shadow of seven 1,000 year periods, the 7th being the millennium.. There's also Hosea 6:2, which says "After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence." - Which some read (speculate) as Jesus, from His death, 27-33 CE, after 2 days (2000 years) He will revive/resurrect.. on the third day will raise up the rest..? :dontknow: but interesting..

No, Glenda. It's a bit like this is 2018 but it's the 21st century: after two days and on the third day are identical.

Oh okay thanks :laughing7: ..so after two days will raise them up.. Speculation, like I said, but I'm sure the verse and all verses mean something :gsmile:

Yeas, it's a clear Old Testament prophecy to the circumstances of the resurrection of Jesus and how it connects to, like you say, how He will raise us up to live in His presence.

Quote from: marie glen on October 25, 2018, 07:55:35 PM
If humans evolved from primates.. that means death came before sin, which to me/imo, contradicts God's account and statements.. Of how sin brought death.. as Romans 5:12 says "just as sin entered into the world through one man."

It's not the case that "humans evolved from primates." 
I maintain that physical death e.g. of bacteria and dinosaurs occurred before The Fall; do you think that position "contradicts God's account and statements"?

Quote from: CST on October 27, 2018, 02:22:48 PM
Yeas, it's a clear Old Testament prophecy to the circumstances of the resurrection of Jesus and how it connects to, like you say, how He will raise us up to live in His presence.

Hosea 6:1-3 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea+6%3A1-3&version=HCSB
1 Come, let us return to the Lord.
For He has torn us,
and He will heal us;
He has wounded us,
and He will bind up our wounds.
2 He will revive us after two days,
and on the third day He will raise us up
so we can live in His presence.
3 Let us strive to know the Lord.
His appearance is as sure as the dawn.
He will come to us like the rain,
like the spring showers that water the land.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 05:22:46 PM

Quote from: marie glen on October 25, 2018, 07:55:35 PM
If humans evolved from primates.. that means death came before sin, which to me/imo, contradicts God's account and statements.. Of how sin brought death.. as Romans 5:12 says "just as sin entered into the world through one man."

It's not the case that "humans evolved from primates." 

Yes, it is!

Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 05:26:11 PM

Quote from: CST on October 27, 2018, 02:22:48 PM
Yeas, it's a clear Old Testament prophecy to the circumstances of the resurrection of Jesus and how it connects to, like you say, how He will raise us up to live in His presence.

Hosea 6:1-3 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea+6%3A1-3&version=HCSB
1 Come, let us return to the Lord.
For He has torn us,
and He will heal us;
He has wounded us,
and He will bind up our wounds.
2 He will revive us after two days,
and on the third day He will raise us up
so we can live in His presence.
3 Let us strive to know the Lord.
His appearance is as sure as the dawn.
He will come to us like the rain,
like the spring showers that water the land.

That looks like a complete confirmation of my original statement to me.

Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:35:55 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 05:22:46 PM
It's not the case that "humans evolved from primates." 

Yes, it is!

What lines of evidence/argumentation lead you to conclude that "humans evolved from primates"?

Oct 25, 2018 entry at
https://facebook.com/thefreedomassignment/
Ok so what's 'enforced 'deception.

You saw it with Communism and the Nazis; like many churches they ruled by fear! It was punishable by death to disagree with those in power, and that's true of many churches.

What?? God can you please not! A lot of churches make you feel like you're very naughty if you don't follow their thinking, but they hardly 'punish you by death', it's more like a slap on the wrist with a wet glove', it's almost laughable.

I beg to differ Mark. You might find their criticism laughable, but for those who believe what they say, who hang on every word, and have bought into the lie that church leaders are somehow closer to me – for them the criticism and judgement of senior Christians is terrifying.

Why for goodness sake?

Because it's punishable by death.

Punishable by death??

Yes. "If you don't follow our teaching, or obey our rules you won't be such a good Christian...". The obvious implication is that when your Christianity slips (as a result of not following their teaching) you are in danger of hell. That's the ultimate manipulation.
Not following the teaching of senior Christians is seen as extremely dangerous and likely to make me cross. Which it doesn't! I'm not cross. I am smiling. I'm not angry with anyone. "For God so loved ("Highly esteemed") the world that he gave his son.'

Re: evolution;

There's Godless evolution that is all random and by chance that even atheist scientists don't understand fully and defies rational thinking.

There's the belief held by many Christians including people I know and myself included that God guides it and it is part of how he creates.

This is an example of how God creates in an ongoing process: let us make mankind in our image is happening today in my opinion, we are gradually being made in His image.

So I don't believe in Godless evolution.

And micro evolution is something I think we all agree upon (species change over time) so it isn't a leap for me to think of macro evolution in the same way, however I only believe in it because I believe in God and I don't believe God and science to be in opposition, I think they are complimentary: God without science and science without God are both lacking IMO, because science explains the glory of God.

I don't find it any more amazing that God created all in 7 days versus a more gradual unfolding.

I don't find it to be contradictory to genesis. 

Just my opinions though, sharing if anyone passing through is helped by this approach.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 30, 2018, 03:50:23 AM

Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:35:55 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 05:22:46 PM
It's not the case that "humans evolved from primates." 

Yes, it is!

What lines of evidence/argumentation lead you to conclude that "humans evolved from primates"?

The science of the theory of evolution by natural selection, the science of radiocarbon dating, other sciences that show the age of the Earth and universe to be rather older than the seven day creation span the Bible gives. With God that doesn't really matter, but the evidence supports the process happening in some way.

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 30, 2018, 01:46:06 PM
Re: evolution;

There's Godless evolution that is all random and by chance that even atheist scientists don't understand fully and defies rational thinking.

There's the belief held by many Christians including people I know and myself included that God guides it and it is part of how he creates.

This is an example of how God creates in an ongoing process: let us make mankind in our image is happening today in my opinion, we are gradually being made in His image.

So I don't believe in Godless evolution.

And micro evolution is something I think we all agree upon (species change over time) so it isn't a leap for me to think of macro evolution in the same way, however I only believe in it because I believe in God and I don't believe God and science to be in opposition, I think they are complimentary: God without science and science without God are both lacking IMO, because science explains the glory of God.

I don't find it any more amazing that God created all in 7 days versus a more gradual unfolding.

I don't find it to be contradictory to genesis. 

Just my opinions though, sharing if anyone passing through is helped by this approach.

That doesn't explain whether or not you think man evolving from lower primates is part of that God-guided process.

Isn't Natural "Selection" the separating of traits present? How do you get all kinds of life from one microcopic atom of life and it becomes all the life that there is?

What about soft tissue (collagen) in fossils and dinosaur remains? Soft tissue cannot remain for millions/billions of years.. And an explosion which on day one, sure.. But is it a constant rate so you can measure the time?

But no matter.. I get tired of that topic, lol.. Strong delusions.. phew.. Et.. is just one. (imo.)

Basically, the debate (conversation, should be) between evolution and what's called intelligent design (however that was done, but I believe literal :Peace2: figure why not? and no death before sin) ..the debate really should move on to what sort of intelligence designed? But I guess the evolutionary scientists panic! :laughing7: That's my guess.

Gotta run put the chickens in, lest them coyotes get 'em. But I know there was something else I wanted to write...  :doh: hate that..

P.s.. could look up the interlinear etc, of "made in His image" or became "in His image"..?

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 30, 2018, 01:46:06 PM
Re: evolution;

There's Godless evolution that is all random and by chance that even atheist scientists don't understand fully and defies rational thinking.

There's the belief held by many Christians including people I know and myself included that God guides it and it is part of how he creates.

This is an example of how God creates in an ongoing process: let us make mankind in our image is happening today in my opinion, we are gradually being made in His image.

So I don't believe in Godless evolution.

And micro evolution is something I think we all agree upon (species change over time) so it isn't a leap for me to think of macro evolution in the same way, however I only believe in it because I believe in God and I don't believe God and science to be in opposition, I think they are complimentary: God without science and science without God are both lacking IMO, because science explains the glory of God.

I don't find it any more amazing that God created all in 7 days versus a more gradual unfolding.

I don't find it to be contradictory to genesis. 

Just my opinions though, sharing if anyone passing through is helped by this approach.

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

   ...also science is amazing! And all the variety of life and the planet and universe.. and that gets lost, sometimes in the 'debate'.. :girlheart:

Quote from: CST on October 30, 2018, 06:37:45 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 30, 2018, 03:50:23 AM
What lines of evidence/argumentation lead you to conclude that "humans evolved from primates"?

The science of the theory of evolution by natural selection, the science of radiocarbon dating, other sciences that show the age of the Earth and universe to be rather older than the seven day creation span the Bible gives. With God that doesn't really matter, but the evidence supports the process happening in some way.

I agree that "the age of the Earth and universe" is much older than 6,000 years old.  The universe is about 15 billion years old, and the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.
Also, it's possible for there to be a "seven day creation span" at the same time as a 15 billion-year-old universe:  if God said 'let there be ____' over the course of 7 24-hour days, commands that  then unfolded over the course of billions of years (as soon as God says 'let there be ____,' it's as good as done).  Hayward mentions that approach to interpreting the opening chapters of Genesis, plus several other approaches, in

_Creation and Evolution: Rethinking the Evidence from Science and the Bible_ by Alan Hayward
https://www.amazon.com/Creation-Evolution-Rethinking-Evidence-Science/dp/1597520616/

"the evidence supports the process happening"
Exactly what "process" do you refer to there?  (a population of monkeys or apes turning into a population of humans?  I remind you that evidence that the earth is very old isn't evidence that monkeys or apes turned into humans.)
What lines of evidence/argumentation lead you to conclude that "humans evolved from primates"?

What are the 2 strongest lines of fossil record evidence in support of "the theory of evolution by natural selection"?
What are the 2 strongest lines of breeding experiment evidence in support of "the theory of evolution by natural selection"?

Quote from: marie glen on October 31, 2018, 12:18:37 AM
could look up the interlinear etc, of "made in His image" or became "in His image"

From
http://holloway270.rssing.com/chan-26172398/all_p1.html
Here's the question; what do you think it means that you were created in my image?

Well you're right, I can hear you saying something, hear you explaining what it means, feel your explanation inside of me.  But until just now I would have said 'I haven't the faintest idea.'  Simply because the question is too big.

But now?

Now I THINK you're saying that the fact I'm created in your image means, among other things, that I think like you?

Yes.  That's what I'm showing you.  Tell me what you can hear me saying about that.

I think you're saying that because I think like you, then I end up thinking some of the thoughts you think.

Yes.  And that's the point.  That's the reason so many who try to hear my voice think that what they hear are their own thoughts.  Their thoughts are so often like my thoughts, so often a copy.

But God there's that scripture that says your thoughts aren't mine.

They're not.  But we think similarly.

But the scripture says also that your ways aren't mine.  That suggests that not only are our thoughts independent, we don't think similarly.

No.  What it means is that I don't think like you.  But you think like me.  I am before.  I am the perfect model.  You are a copy.  Next time someone tells you that God's thoughts are not our thoughts, ask them what they think it means when scripture also says that God created humans in his image.  Scripture is a balancing act Mark.  You need to balance one scripture against another, else you go off on a huge tangent.  Ever learning, never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 30, 2018, 01:46:06 PM
There's Godless evolution that is all random and by chance that even atheist scientists don't understand fully and defies rational thinking.
There's the belief held by many Christians including people I know and myself included that God guides it and it is part of how he creates.

If God guides something, that something isn't Godless.  To say 'God guides Godless _x_' is contradictory and nonsensical.

Regarding His image...

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/image-and-likeness-13879/msg195612/#msg195612

And

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/created-or-creating-in-the-image-of-god-gen-127/

Are to threads that have debated about this.

I see verses that support both, but I see how knowing and reading Hebrew would tremendously help, especially on these matters.

Just a quote from someone before that knew Hebrew, from the second thread.

QuoteHe is correct in saying that the first use of the verb ברא is in, what is actually called the incomplete state, which is an action in progress. He is mistaken though, in thinking that this means that this action is something that has not been completed yet. One has to understand how the Semitic peoples thought when they wrote. When the incomplete is used, (and it is many, many times to indicate things that clearly are not still in process) it is the writers way of putting the reader right there with the action, as if they were personally witnessing it take place.

Aside from James, which does indeed speak of man having been made in God's likeness, all one needs to do is go back and reread the entire Bereshiyt account and you will see that this exact form of the verb, with the nikkud (the little dots and dashes indicating vowel sounds) is found in one other place, back in verse 21...

And Elohim is creating the great monsters....etc.

No one suggests that this is also something that is still being done, correct? In fact, in looking at the verbs forming the first part of those verses in Genesis, all the through the entire Scripture, they are also incomplete. Again, this is simply a Semitic way of drawing the reader into what is being read, connecting them to it as if they were there witnessing it all.

Also, the completed (what you call perfective) state found in the same verse with regard to man speaks of the certainty of it having been done.

Because the English culture does not write that way, it can, and has lead, to things being taken from the text that were never intended.

Ray is correct about the grammar, but not so about the conclusion he comes to regarding it.

When I read Paul's words, I see man (the male) as the image and glory of God, and I see women as the image of God as well, but the glory of man. I see her as just as fully the image of God as a man is, just expressing different aspects and facets of his image.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 31, 2018, 04:04:51 AM
Regarding His image...

search of chaimbentorah.com
https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=bBzZW9POGIqu5wLZvLmADA&ins=false&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.chaimbentorah.com+"image+of+god" (https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=bBzZW9POGIqu5wLZvLmADA&ins=false&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.chaimbentorah.com+"image+of+god")

Quote from: marie glen on October 31, 2018, 12:18:37 AM
Isn't Natural "Selection" the separating of traits present? How do you get all kinds of life from one microcopic atom of life and it becomes all the life that there is?

What about soft tissue (collagen) in fossils and dinosaur remains? Soft tissue cannot remain for millions/billions of years.. And an explosion which on day one, sure.. But is it a constant rate so you can measure the time?

But no matter.. I get tired of that topic, lol.. Strong delusions.. phew.. Et.. is just one. (imo.)

Basically, the debate (conversation, should be) between evolution and what's called intelligent design (however that was done, but I believe literal :Peace2: figure why not? and no death before sin) ..the debate really should move on to what sort of intelligence designed? But I guess the evolutionary scientists panic! :laughing7: That's my guess.

Gotta run put the chickens in, lest them coyotes get 'em. But I know there was something else I wanted to write...  :doh: hate that..

P.s.. could look up the interlinear etc, of "made in His image" or became "in His image"..?

Evolution states that 'parent' animals have traits hardwired into their genetic code, when they breed they reproduce part of this genetic code and pass on their own traits to their long. I theory each parent provides 50% of the genetic material although in practice a lot of the parents already have identical traits so in fact original traits are greatly reduced.

But evolution also says that the genetic code is prone to mutation, randomly but in line with certain laws, and when this happens the mutation can create a new trait which the parent that has the mutation can pass on. I'm pretty sure mutations can also develop as the child develops.

Natural Selection simply says that the pressures of the world act on the traits in ways that mean that animals with that trait are more likely and pass that trait on. I'm you know all this. when the trait is passed on enough it complete eclipses other traits on that part of the creatures genome and that version goes exist.

Now obviously this doesn't contradict God, God could easily have designed it this way and i get what you're saying because that sounds very plausible in many ways. The science works. However, people don't have a problem with evolution because of the science. They have problems with it because it means that creation took longer than the Bible says it did if read literally, or that it makes humans seem to be less of the special species they like to believe the Bible says they are. Or because it requires animals to die en masse over millions of years for it to work it contradicts the idea that death is introduced into the world by the sin of man not before. You seem to have a particular problem with this issue here. Reasons for opposing evolution aren't scientific they're theological, people think it's faithless to disbelieve the Bible when it contradicts science. The belief is that faith in God requires trusting Him and what He says, not evil science (which they can usefully point out means 'knowledge') which exists to lead us astray.  On the other side of the coin the scientists who support evolution and not God believe the high violence required by the process believe that any god that would create it as a process to create things must be a weak and violent god and not one that could be called loving or be worth of worship. To them a god that is like that would be abominable and so spectacularly flawed that on balance of probabilities that evolution is better explanation by God's absence than His presence.

You must know all this, the point here is that opposition to evolution is irrational it's not made based of the scientific evidence for evolution, it's done because people don't like what it suggests about our relationship with God and the world.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 31, 2018, 03:21:05 AM

Quote from: CST on October 30, 2018, 06:37:45 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 30, 2018, 03:50:23 AM
What lines of evidence/argumentation lead you to conclude that "humans evolved from primates"?

The science of the theory of evolution by natural selection, the science of radiocarbon dating, other sciences that show the age of the Earth and universe to be rather older than the seven day creation span the Bible gives. With God that doesn't really matter, but the evidence supports the process happening in some way.

I agree that "the age of the Earth and universe" is much older than 6,000 years old.  The universe is about 15 billion years old, and the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.
Also, it's possible for there to be a "seven day creation span" at the same time as a 15 billion-year-old universe:  if God said 'let there be ____' over the course of 7 24-hour days, commands that  then unfolded over the course of billions of years (as soon as God says 'let there be ____,' it's as good as done).  Hayward mentions that approach to interpreting the opening chapters of Genesis, plus several other approaches, in

_Creation and Evolution: Rethinking the Evidence from Science and the Bible_ by Alan Hayward
https://www.amazon.com/Creation-Evolution-Rethinking-Evidence-Science/dp/1597520616/

"the evidence supports the process happening"
Exactly what "process" do you refer to there?  (a population of monkeys or apes turning into a population of humans?  I remind you that evidence that the earth is very old isn't evidence that monkeys or apes turned into humans.)
What lines of evidence/argumentation lead you to conclude that "humans evolved from primates"?

What are the 2 strongest lines of fossil record evidence in support of "the theory of evolution by natural selection"?
What are the 2 strongest lines of breeding experiment evidence in support of "the theory of evolution by natural selection"?

You appear to be in the 'don't want the humiliation of being a primate camp', you must prefer the idea of man being a special species, specially made. Yes, it is possible for both seven days and 15 billion years creation but, perhaps not the way you see it. The main point here is that God exist outside the tapestry and so can influence it from outside in whatever way He wishes.. When He's writing the story of the world He doesn't have to write the chapters in the order in which they occur. On one day He might paint the undercoat of the painting, the next He dds this detail, the next another, but the details aren't designed in the order they occur in our history because to God there's no such thing He's just painting the painting or writing the story, or creating whatever model you wish to use. He's beholden to nothing and it would be nonsense to suggest He is.

I'm not an evolutionary biologist, I'm not going to go thrown evidence from that field at you it will take us way off topic but I will make this point. According to Genesis the reason for Adam and his wife's eventual embarrassment in Eden was because they were naked. So was the serpent (there's a pun on this) that is naked as in bare and hairless, a quality noticibly lacking in the species they supposedly evolved from.

All I know is.. there was no death before sin. “Therefore through Adam came death upon all”

I can’t imagine that there was centuries of death then eventually a perfect pair and they were immortal after all the deaths that preceded their version.

I’ve read that all the science branches are disconnected somewhat from one another and they assume another branch has the proof/support for their theory.

Mutations are a downward, at best sideways change, and are not improvements but wear and disintegration like the 2nd law of science upon all matter.

I read God’s Word(s) as literal - allowing for parable when it says so - but too much and it it becomes dangerously close to contradicting God.. and adding to and taking away from His Word(s) (imo)

Done with this! Gotta let my chickens out!

Which reminds me, what did come first? The chicken or the egg?!? :laughing7:

The answer is the egg, evolution teaches us that. A better question is what came first, matter or the laws of the universe; that's a much more intractable problem.

In the Bible God says to Adam that on the day he eats of the tree of knowledge he will die, Genesis 2-4 never claims Adam was immortal and couldn't die (physically) otherwise, that's not what it says. It doesn't say Adam and Woman were a perfect pair either and some parts of ancient Judaism had no trouble claiming that Eve was a replacement for the even less perfect Lilith.

Quote from: CST on November 01, 2018, 02:01:56 PMEvolution states that 'parent' animals have traits hardwired into their genetic code, when they breed they reproduce part of this genetic code and pass on their own traits to their long. I theory each parent provides 50% of the genetic material although in practice a lot of the parents already have identical traits so in fact original traits are greatly reduced.

Despite having conversed with atheists about darwinian theory for several years, I don't understand what you just said.

QuoteBut evolution also says that the genetic code is prone to mutation, randomly but in line with certain laws, and when this happens the mutation can create a new trait which the parent that has the mutation can pass on. I'm pretty sure mutations can also develop as the child develops.

"I'm pretty sure"
What are the 3 most-impressive instances of mutations observed in the laboratory, of which you're aware?
"mutation, randomly but in line with certain laws"
What are some of those "laws"?  Are you OK with mutations occurring in _your_ DNA, and if not, how come not?

QuoteNatural Selection simply says that the pressures of the world act on the traits in ways that mean that animals with that trait are more likely and pass that trait on. I'm you know all this. when the trait is passed on enough it complete eclipses other traits on that part of the creatures genome and that version goes exist.

I am aware that Darwin's theory of NS is a pile of poop.

QuoteThe science works.

In fantasyland, maybe.

QuoteHowever, people don't have a problem with evolution because of the science. They have problems with it because it means that creation took longer than the Bible says it did if read literally, or that it makes humans seem to be less of the special species they like to believe the Bible says they are. Or because it requires animals to die en masse over millions of years for it to work it contradicts the idea that death is introduced into the world by the sin of man not before.

Different people reject Darwinianity for various reasons; the best reason to reject it are that it's opposed by observations of the biological and geological world.
"longer than the Bible says it did"
And how long is that?

QuoteI'm not an evolutionary biologist, I'm not going to go thrown evidence from that field at you it will take us way off topic

You can't present a convincing case for the validity of Darwin's theory of NS because such doesn't exist.

Quote from: marie glen on November 01, 2018, 02:45:46 PM
All I know is.. there was no death before sin. "Therefore through Adam came death upon all"

How about the death of:  bacteria?  dinosaurs?

QuoteMutations are a downward, at best sideways change, and are not improvements but wear and disintegration like the 2nd law of science upon all matter.

Sounds about right.

Quote from: DavidFord on November 03, 2018, 01:50:01 AM

QuoteNatural Selection simply says that the pressures of the world act on the traits in ways that mean that animals with that trait are more likely and pass that trait on. I'm you know all this. when the trait is passed on enough it complete eclipses other traits on that part of the creatures genome and that version goes exist.

I am aware that Darwin's theory of NS is a pile of poop.

Well, isn't natural selection basically saying if one type is better than the other, it will basically beat the weaker ones? That IMO is no proof of changing from one species to another, like a dog to human. And something called entropy(sin and death) exists. So if someone claims that time is needed, won't it get WORSE over time, and not better?

I think the description of days is a bit more symbolic, probably more apparent in Hebrew. I would probably lean towards Old Earth, but reject Darwinian/Macro Evolution.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 03, 2018, 01:58:36 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on November 03, 2018, 01:50:01 AM
I am aware that Darwin's theory of NS is a pile of poop.

Well, isn't natural selection basically saying if one type is better than the other, it will basically beat the weaker ones? That IMO is no proof of changing from one species to another, like a dog to human. And something called entropy(sin and death) exists. So if someone claims that time is needed, won't it get WORSE over time, and not better?

One method of defining 'natural selection' is with the tautological 'there is survival of the fittest-- those that survive are the fittest, and the fittest are those that survive.'
Yes, over the generations, DNA degrades.

QuoteI think the description of days is a bit more symbolic, probably more apparent in Hebrew. I would probably lean towards Old Earth, but reject Darwinian/Macro Evolution.

'Yom' has several definitions, including an epoch.

https://reasons.org/explore/publications/rtb-101/biblical-evidence-old-earth
The biblical word for day, yom, has four different literal meanings: 1) the daylight portion of a day, 2) part of the daylight hours, 3) an ordinary day (now 24 hours), and 4) a longer but finite period of time....

Notable Christians Open to an Old-universe, Old-earth Perspective
https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/todays-new-reason-to-believe/read/tnrtb/2000/01/01/notable-christians-open-to-an-old-universe-old-earth-perspective

Here's an interesting thing that most people probably miss. God tells us His definition of day in the text:

Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And God's day always begins at night. Notice it says evening then morning, not the opposite.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 03, 2018, 02:38:28 AM
Here's an interesting thing that most people probably miss. God tells us His definition of day in the text:

Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And God's day always begins at night. Notice it says evening then morning, not the opposite.

What's the meaning of "day" here?:

Genesis 2:4 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=day&qs_version=YLT
These [are] births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens;

Matthew 10:15
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=day+of+judgment&qs_version=YLT&limit=100
verily I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 03, 2018, 02:38:28 AM
Here's an interesting thing that most people probably miss. God tells us His definition of day in the text:

Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And God's day always begins at night. Notice it says evening then morning, not the opposite.

Actually that not quite correct, what it says, is that God does the day's work (whatever that may be) and then evening arrives and then morning follows the (x) day. A day actually seems to run from morning to morning, at least as translated in English but the big thing is that there is no 'night', the text just skips over it. It should come between each evening and morning but it doesn't. This what happens when you try to take the Bible literally, you often find that what is written has lacking details that pull the rug from under the concept.

Quote from: CST on November 03, 2018, 01:53:13 PM

Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 03, 2018, 02:38:28 AM
Here's an interesting thing that most people probably miss. God tells us His definition of day in the text:

Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And God's day always begins at night. Notice it says evening then morning, not the opposite.

Actually that not quite correct, what it says, is that God does the day's work (whatever that may be) and then evening arrives and then morning follows the (x) day. A day actually seems to run from morning to morning, at least as translated in English but the big thing is that there is no 'night', the text just skips over it. It should come between each evening and morning but it doesn't. This what happens when you try to take the Bible literally, you often find that what is written has lacking details that pull the rug from under the concept.

Could you give me a couple verses supporting the bolded part? Thanks.

Here is how the Concordant translates it:

CLV Gen 1:5 And calling is the Elohim the light "day, and the darkness He calls "night." And coming is it to be evening and coming to be morning, day one.

Gen 1:1 Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.

CLV doesn't even say "in the beginning." Also something to note, is that the earth became chaos and void. It was not always like that(I think.)

Yeah, a lot of translations render it: "God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." (Genesis 1:5 - NIV)
"God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day." (Genesis 1:5 - ESV)
"God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. (Genesis 1:5 - NASB)

I can't entirely see how your rendering changes that. The general reading seems to be that the text describes God's action, in this case calling light and separating it from darkness, and then evening follows it and then the next morning which describes the whole day. Otherwise you have this weird scenario where it goes evening followed by night (unmentioned) followed by morning and calling it 'one day' when no 'day' (period of light) actually occurs. It's actually day, evening, night, (unmentioned) morning, or else the text is naming a day while describing a time period where there is no 'day' to speak of.

The point is that as soon as God says "Let there be light." and get's it that's the start of the day because day is defined by being light that follows and is separated from darkness (night). Until God invokes light it was all night when He does invoke light and separates it, it is immediately day. This is just logical I don't really need quotes to defend it.

_Conversations with God: An Uncommon Dialogue, Book 1_ by Neale Donald Walsch (1995), 211+pp., 40-42, largely cited at
https://www.lightforcenetwork.com/castiel/hell
with a shorter excerpt at https://www.facebook.com/NealeDonaldWalsch/photos/what-if-everything-we-thought-about-god-was-inaccurate-would-it-matter-find-out-/10152937244232344/
[God]
There is hell, but it is not what you think, and you do not experience it for the reasons you have been given.

[NDW]
What is hell?

[God]
It is the experience of the worst possible outcome of your choices, decisions, and creations.  It is the natural consequence of any thought which denies Me, or says no to Who You Are in relationship to Me.
It is the pain you suffer through wrong thinking.  Yet even the term "wrong thinking" is a misnomer, because there is no such thing as that which is wrong. 
Hell is the opposite of joy.  It is unfulfillment.  It is knowing Who and What You Are, and failing to experience that.  It is being _less._  That is hell, and there is none greater for your soul.
But hell does not exist as this _place_ you have fantasized, where you burn in some everlasting fire, or exist in some state of everlasting torment.  What purpose could I have in that?
Even if I did hold the extraordinarily unGodly thought that you did not "deserve" heaven, why would I have a need to seek some kind of revenge, or punishment, for your failing?  Wouldn't it be a simple matter for Me to just dispose of you?  What vengeful part of Me would require that I subject you to eternal suffering of a type and at a level beyond description?

If you answer, the need for justice, would not a simple denial of communion with Me in heaven serve the ends of justice?  Is the unending infliction of pain also required?
I tell you there _is_ no such experience after death as you have constructed in your fear-based theologies.  Yet there is an experience of the soul so unhappy, so incomplete, so less than whole, so _separated_ from God's greatest joy, that to your soul this would be hell.  But I tell you _I_ do not _send_ you there, nor do I cause this experience to be visited upon you.  You, yourself, create the experience, whenever and however you separate your Self from your own highest thought about you.  You, yourself, create the experience, whenever you deny your Self; whenever you reject Who and What You Really Are.

Yet even this experience is never eternal.  It _cannot_ be, for it is not My plan that you shall be separated from Me forever and ever.  Indeed, such a thing is an impossibility-- for to achieve such an event, not only would _you_ have to deny Who You Are-- I would have to as well.  This I will never do.  And so long as one of us holds the truth about you, the truth about you shall ultimately prevail.

[NDW]
But if there is no hell, does that mean I can do what I want, act as I wish, commit any act, without fear of retribution?

[God]
Is it _fear_ that you need in order to be, do, and have what is intrinsically right?  Must you be _threatened_ in order to "be good"?  And what is "being good"?  Who gets to have the final say about that?  Who sets the guidelines?  Who makes the rules?
I tell you this:  _You_ are your own rule-maker.  You set the guidelines.  And _you_ decide how well you have done; how well you are doing.  For _you_ are the one who has decided Who and What You Really Are-- and Who You Want to Be.  And _you_ are the _only one_ who can assess how well you're doing. 
No one else will judge you ever, for why, and how, could God judge God's own creation and call it bad?  If I wanted you to be and do everything perfectly, I would have left you in the state of total perfection whence you came.  The whole point of the process was for you to discover yourself, _create_ your Self, as you truly are-- and as you truly wish to be.  Yet you could not be that unless you also had a choice to _be something else._
Should I therefore punish you for making a choice that I Myself have laid before you?  If I did not want you to make the second choice, why would I create other than the first?
This is a question you must ask yourself before you would assign Me the role of a condemning God. 

The direct answer to your question is, yes, you may do as you wish without fear of retribution.  It may serve you, however, to be aware of consequences. 
Consequences are results.  Natural outcomes.  These are not at all the same as retributions, or punishments.  Outcomes are simply that.  They are what results from the natural application of natural laws.  They are that _which_ occurs, quite predictably, as a consequence of what _has_ occurred. 
All physical life functions in accordance with natural laws.  Once you remember these laws, and apply them, you have mastered life at the physical level. 
What seems like punishment to you-- or what you would call evil, or bad luck-- is nothing more than a natural law asserting itself.

As solid as you otherwise seem scripturally David, do you ever question the total authenticity of this?

Personally, I see several issues in this one "conversation" alone.  To name a couple;  the capitalization of things having to do with 'Self' (deifying self) - also that Jesus would say there is no such thing as that which is wrong.

I honestly have doubts that this guy is totally hearing from God.  I'd suspect his own imagination is at work in at least some of it, if not much of it...  :dunno2:  my :2c:  ..  blessings

"YOU ARE YOUR OWN RULER,MAKER"  that's a  big FAT bullfrog!!!!! :2c:...If I'kiss it"will it turn into a 'prince?" :eek:

2 Thessalonians2;4 man of lawlessness...exalt him-SELF over everything that is called'GOD" like creator/maker/sovereign :2c:

  do we not have to receive 'authority' from the very hands of God?And also'POWER"over all the enemy[wickedness]ofour soul.

                                                                 :2c:

 :nod:

I used to be a big fan of NDW's books before I gave my life to Jesus. His books are not the Truth. In one book "god" tells him that we should become a cashless society with a one world government...     

Quote from: Andrew on May 01, 2019, 03:36:18 AM
I used to be a big fan of NDW's books before I gave my life to Jesus. His books are not the Truth. In one book "god" tells him that we should become a cashless society with a one world government...   

Thanks for the heads up-- I'll look for that as I read.  I doubt _any_ book is "the Truth."  I suspect that there's truth in all books.

Quote from: jabcat on April 30, 2019, 05:59:08 AMdo you ever question the total authenticity of this?

I'm halfway through the first book, and have put "?" marks beside material I questioned.

"the capitalization of things having to do with 'Self' (deifying self)"
I typically capitalize my name, but don't consider myself a deity, and don't think I'm deifying myself by capitalizing my name.

"also that Jesus would say there is no such thing as that which is wrong"
I recall reading a longer discussion of his of wrong vs. right, which could use revisiting.

"I honestly have doubts that this guy is totally hearing from God"
I doubt there's _anyone_ (exception:  Jesus) who "is totally hearing from God."

"I'd suspect his own imagination is at work in at least some of it"
Undoubtedly.
"if not much of it"
I'm reading lots of material that seems quite profound.  I doubt he got that material merely from his own imagination.

Quote from: sheila on April 30, 2019, 04:58:31 PM"YOU ARE YOUR OWN RULER,MAKER" 

I've been told I'm a priest, prophet, and king.  Was I told incorrect info?
I like to think I'm a creator/maker of material I post on the internet.  Am I, or am I not, a creator/maker?

Quote from: sheila on April 30, 2019, 05:09:39 PM2 Thessalonians2;4 man of lawlessness...exalt him-SELF over everything that is called'GOD" like creator/maker/sovereign

Are you calling anyone a "man of lawlessness," and if so, who?

"do we not have to receive 'authority' from the very hands of God?And also'POWER"over all the enemy[wickedness]ofour soul."
IMO, we _have_ received authority, and power, from God.

_I Give You Authority:  Practicing the Authority Jesus Gave Us_ by Charles H. Kraft
https://www.amazon.com/Give-You-Authority-Practicing-Jesus/dp/0800795245/

Quote from: DavidFord on May 01, 2019, 05:41:19 AM

I typically capitalize my name, but don't consider myself a deity, and don't think I'm deifying myself by capitalizing my name.

I doubt there's _anyone_ (exception:  Jesus) who "is totally hearing from God."

I believe he's expressing something much different than "capitalizing a proper name".  I don't see that as the meaning and context at all.

As far as whether he's hearing/not hearing from God (could he be hearing from someone/something else?) and using his own imagination;  a major problem I see with that is, he is presenting his material as exact, direct quotes from God.  All the while, IMO, saying things that don't line up with the scriptures.

Too many red flags for me. 

I think we'd be better off focusing on scripture.

man of lawlessness is a 'spirit'/that transforms himself into a messenger of light...that a man believes is GOD/Jesus an angel etc.

they glorify the creation,men,ministers,angels,teachers etc about anything but the Father and Christ and what they have done. :2c:

'You are your own ruler maker"that is what the lying spirit that transforms himself into a messenger of light tells a man.Only the

POTTER'S HANDS can change[we shall all be changed"] a man...we can not'remold' ourselves nor anyone else.DOES NOT GOD HAVE

AUTHORITY?

  there be men and women 'changing' and remolding themselves into the opposite sex right now.

   Ecc 3;14   I know that everything God does will endure forever,NOTHING CAN BE ADDED TO  IT..AND NOTHING TAKEN FROM IT

Amen Sheila! :thumbsup: It is what is meant by Sabbath.. On that "Great Day of Forgiveness", it is a rock solid rule it is a complete Sabbath. No works. "And any one who does not afflict their soul" (repent?) on that 'day' will be cut off from their people.."

But we know that is not the mythical 'forever' when it comes to ruin (crashing n burning as the saying goes) or "correction" (kolasis? if I am remembering right).

These things, Paul said are a shadow of the real. And he started with the Sabbath, just like the Holy Days do. I think He wrote out His works in the Holy Days, as also is well known the pattern of the temple is also a type and shadow of the heavens and truth.

Amen! ..No works as earning.. I can't remember how it's written. "Not as though salvation is wages.." Something like that, as if God could owe us redemption.. or completion. It's all HiS works! His glory.. We can know it's a beautiful thing He's making.. The world is weary..  He had compassion.. "the people were as sheep with no Shepherd.." ...The young people - well of all ages - have been educated by the world.. But many I think would love to hear the message of the beautiful thing He is creating!

Quote from: jabcat on May 01, 2019, 08:48:40 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on May 01, 2019, 05:41:19 AM

I typically capitalize my name, but don't consider myself a deity, and don't think I'm deifying myself by capitalizing my name.

I doubt there's _anyone_ (exception:  Jesus) who "is totally hearing from God."

I believe he's expressing something much different than "capitalizing a proper name".  I don't see that as the meaning and context at all.

As far as whether he's hearing/not hearing from God (could he be hearing from someone/something else?) and using his own imagination;  a major problem I see with that is, he is presenting his material as exact, direct quotes from God.  All the while, IMO, saying things that don't line up with the scriptures.

Too many red flags for me. 

I think we'd be better off focusing on scripture.

I for one LOVE the scripture! I think it must take a bit of discernment between what the Lord teaches us by guiding - via the scripture, and in prayer, etc.. and what more closely resembles channelling..? :dontknow: I like to stay in the word itself... when asked about a sign of 70 a.d. and end of this modern world days? He said be careful to not be misled. Or to mislead? The Greek in Mark, I think it is, sounds like that to me..(?) ..His first and most mentioned response to that question, was false teachers.. even in His name.. And let's face it, every one is mistaken about something having to do with truth and the scripture, so where is the wisdom in basing our truth on things said by other people? (I don't get that. :gsmile: ) Of course we can learn from and with others! But.. ..Didn't the Lord say call no one teacher? We have so many teachers it's ridiculous.. imo :laughing7: forgive me if I'm being offensive/rowdy. :Peace2:

Quote from: jabcat on May 01, 2019, 08:48:40 AM
I believe he's expressing something much different than "capitalizing a proper name".  I don't see that as the meaning and context at all.
As far as whether he's hearing/not hearing from God (could he be hearing from someone/something else?) and using his own imagination;  a major problem I see with that is, he is presenting his material as exact, direct quotes from God.  All the while, IMO, saying things that don't line up with the scriptures.
Too many red flags for me. 
I think we'd be better off focusing on scripture.

Yes, one possibility is that he is "hearing from someone/something else."
What exactly does [Ps 82]"you are gods" mean?

John 10 (NKJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=NKJV
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because *You, being a Man, make Yourself God."*
34 Jesus answered them, *"Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?* 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

Psalm 82 (NKJV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+82&version=NKJV
1 God stands in the congregation of [a]the mighty;
He judges among the [b ]gods.     ....
6 I said, "You are [e]gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes."
Footnotes:
Psalm 82:1 Heb. El, lit. God
Psalm 82:1 Judges; Heb. elohim, lit. mighty ones or gods
Psalm 82:6 Judges; Heb. elohim, lit. mighty ones or gods

Jesus is God.  How exactly is doing something to someone the equivalent of doing that something to Jesus?  i.e., doing something to God?

Mt 25:39-40 (NKJV),
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NKJV
Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
And the King will answer and say to them,
'Assuredly, I say to you,
inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren,
you did it to Me.'

   body members of the ONE TRUE GOD..are not independent.the foot doesn't act independently of the HEAD.  Jesus..God's own right

  'arm' that worked salvation' for Him...said 'I only do what I behold My Father do"

I do not throw stones at men. BUT..there is a stone NOT carved out BY HUMAN HANDS..that strikes the king of Babylon's  false image

at it's feet. :2c:

amen Sheila.. by striking the feet of the statue of mankind's empires, of course the crumbling/breaking apart of the feet causes the whole statue to fall.. and as prophet Daniel said, the dust of it is blown away.. like the chaff (that it is).

Praise God! No empires but His/Love's!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Some of this stuff.. ideas of men, resembles the "babbling and geneologies" of gnosis -  http://gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Valentinian_Theology.htm

fable(s) - 3454 mýthos – a myth; a false account, yet posing to be the truth; a fabrication (fable) which subverts (replaces) what is actually true

I can see how a mind caught up in all of that.. would soon enough - "stray from the faith" (1 Tim.6:21) and forget all about "Christ-crucified"..

Their minds caught up in this search for salvation through knowledge.. The universe God made and said it was all good, is taught to be carnal.. inferior.. You see, thAt's the problem.. not sin/missing the mark.. and a deceitful heart, choosing wrong ways.. but you see Yhvh, just like in 'satanism' etc, is seen to be a flawed deity.
....I'm still somewhat convinced that from this came the 'gluing' of the hell myth to Christianity... After all, gnosticism was a loose collection of 'esoteric' beliefs from the beliefs of the nations (gentile world). "Ever searching, never learning". Searching mysteries, knowledge.. as salvation and key, rather than "Christ crucified" (and bending the knee/will to Yhvh, through Christ crucified). Professing theirselves to be wise, they became babblers.


...so much better, amen, to study (and "meditate upon day and night") the scripture (itself).

What's below reminded me of material above.

_The Message of Sadhu Sundar Singh:  A Study in Mysticism on Practical Religion_ by B.H. Streeter and A.J. Appasamy (1922), 209pp., 95-96
https://archive.org/stream/themessageofsadh00streuoft/themessageofsadh00streuoft_djvu.txt
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1293189901/
https://www.amazon.com/Message-Sadhu-Sundar-Singh-Mysticism-ebook/dp/B013RN32LU/
"There [in heaven] we realize not only the desires we have known in this life, but desires, which we did not even know that we had, are opened up and realized, because there is everything to satisfy them.  There I am satisfied, there there is nothing more to ask.  It is wonderful!  That is our home. 

"I asked one of the Spirits the meaning of the passage in St. John:  'I said, Ye are gods.'  I was told that man has innumerable desires, and that these show that he is going to make infinite progress when in Heaven.  There we have more capacities than we have hairs of our head here. 

"Another time I asked what Christ meant by saying, 'Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.'  He did not say 'Be perfect as the angels or the prophets.'  I had been puzzled by this.  Does it mean that we shall become God; and, if so, shall we rebel against Him?  They told me there that God wants us to be equal to Him, because Love always wants an object for affection equal to itself.  Just as men are not satisfied with loving animals merely, so God wants us to be equal to Him.  But if we became so, we could not rebel:  for we should then have an infinite knowledge of the Love of God, and that would bring with it infinite thankfulness.  There is no jealousy in Heaven.  Our Heavenly Father wants us to be made equal to Him.  There is no jealousy in Heaven.  There are differences of degree, but there are no disagreements.  Everyone is always on everyone else's side, and those who are low down in the scale feel so proud that their elder brothers are so big. 

https://www.tentmaker.org/biographies/singh.htm

Jesus is the prototype, and also forever “firstborn”.. Father, Son, children..

Our imperfections and flaws will be burned up / consumed. Either upon our day of atonement - which is “today” for us who believe before death - by God’s Spirit/Presence, or, at Jesus’ return/“appearance” amidst fire (2 Thess.1:7-8) when human works are consumed/purged from Earth.

Those who die before reconciliation / conversion, thus dying “still in their sins” - I believe their “day of atonement” shall be during “the judgment” because Peter wrote “God knows how to preserve the unjust for CORRECTION (kolasis) on day of judgment”. (2 Pet.2:9)

And Jesus said “ ALL in the tombs (graves) will hear His voice and come forth” (from the tombs/graves) “..some in the resurrection to Life, and some in the resurrection to judgment”. (Jn.5:28-29)

God is Life and also Perfection. (Selah) ...we are His happy children.
:gsmile:

Quote from: GodIsLove on August 16, 2019, 02:00:16 AM
https://www.tentmaker.org/biographies/singh.htm

That was AWESOME.. especially his quotes..

..i read writings of Paramahansa Yogananda - from the East - before discovering the bible (a new testament). :gsmile:

And curiously, I came across something by Yogananda just yesterday..

Quote from: GodIsLove on August 16, 2019, 02:00:16 AM
https://www.tentmaker.org/biographies/singh.htm

P.S. - I needed that!

...we should have a 2 way chat  with God every day.. He showed us, didn't He? His voice was not in the storm, the tempest.. I haven't read those verses  in a while. I don't remember the list in the demonstration was, that His voice wasn't in.

His voice was in the quietness. That's what the East knows so much better than the West.. That's what Mr. Singh knew.. and Paramahansa Yogananda.. and many others.


I wonder if it's possible those who "do good" could be included in the first resurrection.. the one at Jesus' return ("appearance").. A sort of spontaneous conversion,which others have mentioned as the correction/kolasis of the second resurrection folks. (2Pet.2:9) Which I can't see cause I think there's a LOT of valuable learning/educating (convincing) that goes on in the repentance and growing of Jesus within process..

..Except it refers to "those that are His at His coming" in 1 Cor.15:23. So probably not?

Yet the Lord said "all in the tombs will hear His voice, and come forth, those who have done good, in the resurrection to? of? Life..

Yet? It's dangerously close to non-Christian / non-biblical Universalism. :faint: (But it could still be possible..? Maybe He can reach those "who do good" during their passing away.. :dontknow: - well of course He CAN.. when my father died, tho he believed? sort of? he was not a very repentant person, but my brother said his eyes had a look of peaceful happiness just as he was passing away. (The hebrew or greek of dying refers to fading away.. dang can't remember, and don't know what word..)

:Chinscratch: :Peace2:

One of the things I balked at in the 1st _Conversations With God_ book by Walsch was reincarnation.  Peter Tan discussed the possibility of a pre-earthly-existence for humans born on earth, without his endorsing the concept.  Julian of Norwich said that Jesus had a pre-existence in heaven before being born on earth, and said he'd lost much of his memory of that pre-existence.  The great Origen apparently believed in a pre-earthly-existence for humans born on earth.  Maybe such is a reality.

The word which came from the Lord to Jerimiah, saying: 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the [a]wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was [c]marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

Jerimiah 18 1-4
I seen a guy on you-tube use this verse as possible evidence for reincarnation. What just hit me about this verse now is the "wheel" as people who talk about reincarnation say its about getting off the wheel of reincarnation.

Cardinal  < Moderator >   Posts: 9273   Gender: Female
Re: Reincarnation and hell    « Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 08:18:20 PM »
https://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/reincarnation-and-hell/
....Your soul did choose to come here, but that doesn't mean He was telling you that it was reincarnation that made that possible. We all chose to come here to be refined and learn to lay down our life for Him, the greatest love any man can have, that he lay down his life for his friend. Abraham, the father of our faith, was G-d's friend, and conversely G-d was therefore Abraham's friend, also.

The scripture said we were NOT willing to be lowered into this bondage of vanity, but that He subjected the same in hope, Christ in you is the hope of glory (His likeness and image being re-formed in you).

I had a dream/vision years ago, of waking up on what looked like a silver table, dressed in white, with 2 others asleep on identical tables in identical white in the same "room" with me. Just then 2 angels came in, and I KNEW they were there to put me into a "dirt suit", and the mere thought was so repulsive and filthy to me, it was beyond natural, it was a spiritual revulsion to the flesh that hit me in my core, it was so sickening a feeling and a fear. I first tried to wake up the others to warn them, then I "ran" away and tried to hide in another room, but I knew before I woke up, that the angels had succeeded in getting me, even if I wasn't shown what happened next.

A few months later, He reminded me of the scripture above and showed me that I had be shown just HOW unwilling I was to be lowered into this vanity, initially. There must have come a point where I accepted it, though. Point being, we were one with Him from the foundation of the world, but all we ever knew was Father's love. We had to know by EXPERIENCE what His love is NOT like, to chose it over everything else.

So basically it is learning to WILLINGLY lay down our life for Him, which essentially is the exact reversal of what we started with by being UN-willing to be lowered into this vanity, to begin with.

I also was caught up in the Spirit in the heavens with the stars, to see some souls descending to earthen vessels they were to become. In the Spirit, I could hear their exchanges with one another, and I felt their joy, the joy of the Lord. They were very excited, and the interesting thing is, they were talking about being aware of what connections they were going to have to one another in this life. But the veil of forgetfulness that is the carnal mind, erases those things from our memory so that we can, as lively/living stones of His spiritual temple, be used to "rub" the imperfections of one another away, until a beautifully fashioned gem for His crown is in it's place. I was initially shocked by this revelation, because I had made no room for such a thing. I had to go before the Lord for wisdom and understanding on just how this "fit", as I do with anything.

So point being, reincarnation has no factor in this. Reason being, it's a works of the flesh doctrine, not a work of the Spirit. No man by taking thought, can add to his stature (measure of Christ in him), one iota. Reincarnation teaches that we can just basically think our way out of the errors we make, and make ourselves a better person. But it doesn't work that way. Man tries to change himself from the outside in with various doctrines like this, but God changes us from the inside out, and only He can do it.

As for how these children seem to know these things, "they" don't. It is a familiar spirit that has attached itself to them providing the "memories". When I was in a deliverance ministry many decades ago, I was used of the Lord to cast this spirit out of people, believe it or not. Reincarnation is an Eastern mysticism belief that has no place in the religion of God. Blessings...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 08:29:11 PM by Cardinal »

Quote from: Andrew on September 19, 2019, 03:27:08 PMJerimiah 18 1-4
I seen a guy on you-tube use this verse as possible evidence for reincarnation. What just hit me about this verse now is the "wheel" as people who talk about reincarnation say its about getting off the wheel of reincarnation.

That is indeed intriguing.

Jeremiah 18 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah+18&version=HCSB
18 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 "Go down at once to the potter's house; there I will reveal My words to you." 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, working away at the wheel.[a] 4 But the jar that he was making from the clay became flawed in the potter's hand, so he made it into another jar, as it seemed right for him to do.
5 The word of the Lord came to me: 6 "House of Israel, can I not treat you as this potter treats his clay?"—this is the Lord's declaration. "Just like clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel.
a:  Lit pair of stones

Cardinal  < Moderator >   Posts: 9273   Gender: Female
Re: Reincarnation and hell    « Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 08:18:20 PM »
https://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/reincarnation-and-hell/
....Your soul did choose to come here, but that doesn't mean He was telling you that it was reincarnation that made that possible.

So point being, reincarnation has no factor in this. Reason being, it's a works of the flesh doctrine, not a work of the Spirit. No man by taking thought, can add to his stature (measure of Christ in him), one iota. Reincarnation teaches that we can just basically think our way out of the errors we make, and make ourselves a better person. But it doesn't work that way. Man tries to change himself from the outside in with various doctrines like this, but God changes us from the inside out, and only He can do it.

Reincarnation is an Eastern mysticism belief that has no place in the religion of God. Blessings...
---------------------

:thumbsup:

"..they overcame by the blood of the Lamb [the Cause] and by the word of their testimony [faithfulness]..."

"Cardinal.... August 14, 2017.... Reincarnation teaches that we can just basically think our way out of the errors we make, and make ourselves a better person"
Hindu believers in reincarnation quickly realize that their efforts to become better are grossly inadequate.  Hindus know it's a hopeless endeavor to try to become good enough to escape the envisioned numerous cycles of deaths and rebirths.

On a side note, I came across a NT Peshi tta verse that mentions a wheel/cycle in connection with 2 other words denoting progeny/course/succession/series, and generation/tribe/family/stock/line:
James 3:6, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) and the tongue is a fire, a world of sin, like a forest is the tongue itself among our members; it defileth all of our body, and burneth the course of our generations which run (forward) as a wheel, and kindleth also itself with fire.
(Murdock) Now the tongue is a fire, and the world of sin is like a forest. And this tongue, which is one among our members, marreth our whole body; and it inflameth the series of our generations that roll on like a wheel; and it is itself on fire.

Is God the painful, purifying fire some experience?

_In Thy Presence_ by Lev Gillet (1977), 144pp., on 14-15.  The first half of this book consists of comments by God and Fr. Gillet in conversation.
https://www.amazon.com/Thy-Presence-Lev-Gillet/dp/0913836346/
The flames shoot forth from the bush which burns, and yet the fire in no way destroys the bush.
Draw near to the Burning Bush, My child, and think about this great vision, and why the bush burns yet is not consumed.
The fire which burns the bush without consuming it is a fire which does not feed on any fuel that is extraneous to itself.  Unaided it continues to exist.  And of its own accord it spreads, spreads to infinity.
This fire does not destroy the wood of the bush.  It purifies the wood.  It makes what is merely briar or thorn in the bush disappear.  But it is not deforming, for it respects the original structure, even while the superfluous growths are vanishing.  It renews without killing.  The wood itself becomes fire, and this fire endures.

Interpreting this in the simplest and most elementary way, thou canst no doubt see in the Burning Bush a manifestation of that divine protection which maintains life through all the sufferings and all the burns.  Thou canst see in it, My child, the affirmation of a supreme Pity, of a preserving Mercy.  Thou canst also see in it the sign of a divine Purification, which, though painful, liberates.

The Burning Bush, however, has a still deeper meaning to it.  It carries in it a Revelation relating to thy God, relating to thy Lord Himself.
The Burning Bush represents one aspect of the divine nature.  In the fire of the bush, thou canst glimpse what I am.  For is not thy Lord, the Lord Love, a devouring fire?
Like the flame of the Bush, I am that Love which gives without ever exhausting itself.  I am that generosity which knows no measure.  One cannot say to My Love:  only so far, and no further.

I am that Love whose nature it is always to incorporate and assimilate whatever human elements it meets (and which is the origin of those elements).  I do not destroy the men I have created any more than the fire destroys the wood of the bush.  I want only to bring about the disappearance of those things which, in a man, contradict the essence of Love.

I take and I make Mine.  I transform and I transfigure.  I bring life.  I transpose to another plane, to a higher plane.
He who loves unites himself to those he loves.  I unite Myself to you, My beloved ones.  Yet even so, there can be no confusion between Me-- I who am Love-- and you, those who have love.
Oh, dost thou now see the great vision?  Dost thou see the flame, lit by no one, blazing forth from My very Heart, the flame which I am?  Dost thou see the divine fire spreading over the world?  The whole universe is the Burning Bush.

_Visions of The Spiritual World_ by Sadhu Sundar Singh (1926)
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
The Soul of a Robber....   He killed and destroyed others, but in reality he has destroyed himself.  God alone knows if this man, and those who are like him, will remain in torment for ages or forever."
After this the angels appointed to the duty took him, and shut him down in the darkness from which he is not permitted to come out.  The state of evildoers in that place is so terrible, and so inexpressibly fierce is their torment, that those who see them tremble at the sight.
Because of the limitations of our worldly speech we can only say this, that wherever the soul of a sinner is, always and in every way, there is nothing but pain that ceases not for a moment.  A kind of lightless fire burns forever and torments these souls, but neither are they altogether consumed, nor does the fire die out.  A spirit who was watching what had just happened said, "Who knows but that in the end this may not be a cleansing flame?"

"Akathist for the Repose of the Departed"
https://akroasis.org/texts-and-resources/akathists-and-canons/akathist-for-the-respose-of-the-departed/
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Akathists-Saviour-Mother-Various/dp/0884650596/
Kontakion 6.
Terrible is the darkness of a soul separated from God, the torments of conscience, the gnashing of teeth, the unquenchable fire and the undying worm.  I tremble at such a fate and, as for myself, I pray:  O ye that suffer in hades, may our song descend upon you as a refreshing dew:  Alleluia!
Ikos 6.
Thy light, O Christ our God, hath shone upon those that sit in darkness and the shadow of death, and those in hades, who are not mindful of Thee; having descended into the nethermost parts of the earth, do Thou bring out into joy those who have been separated from Thee by sin, but who have not renounced Thee; O Lord, Thy children suffer, forgive them; for they have sinned against Heaven and before Thee, immeasurably serious are their sins, but also infinite is Thy mercy.  Visit the bitter destitution of souls far removed from Thee; O Lord, have mercy on those who hated the truth out of ignorance, let Thy love be to them not a burning fire, but the cool delight of Paradise.

Etheridge's translation of the Aramaic Hebrews 2:14 appears to me suggestive of pre-existence.

Hebrews 2:14, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Forasmuch as the sons have been made to participate in flesh and blood,
he also likewise was made a partaker of these very things;
that by his death he might abolish him who held the power of death, who is Satana,
(Murdock) For because the children participated in flesh and blood,
he also, in like manner, took part in the same;
that, by his death, he might bring to naught him who held the dominion of death, namely Satan;
(KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
he also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

APNT, https://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/en/new-parallel-versions-search
Heb 2:14   For because the sons share in flesh and blood,
he also in the same manner shared of the same,
that by his death he would put a stop to him who held the authority of death, who is Satan,

David Bauscher's Aramaic Bible in Plain English, https://biblehub.com/hebrews/2-14.htm
For because the children shared together in flesh and blood,
he also shared in these things in the same form,
so that by his death he would destroy the one who had held the authority of death, who is Satan,

William Norton, https://archive.org/details/translationineng00nort/page/n4
For because the sons shared flesh and blood,
He also, in like manner, shared the same,
that by his death he might make powerless him who holds the empire of death, who is Satan;

Posted by David Ford

"Akathist for the Repose of the Departed"
https://akroasis.org/texts-and-resources/akathists-and-canons/akathist-for-the-respose-of-the-departed/
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Akathists-Saviour-Mother-Various/dp/0884650596/
Kontakion 6.
Terrible is the darkness of a soul separated from God, the torments of conscience, the gnashing of teeth, the unquenchable fire and the undying worm.  I tremble at such a fate and, as for myself, I pray:  O ye that suffer in hades, may our song descend upon you as a refreshing dew:  Alleluia!
Ikos 6.
Thy light, O Christ our God, hath shone upon those that sit in darkness and the shadow of death, and those in hades, who are not mindful of Thee; having descended into the nethermost parts of the earth, do Thou bring out into joy those who have been separated from Thee by sin, but who have not renounced Thee; O Lord, Thy children suffer, forgive them; for they have sinned against Heaven and before Thee, immeasurably serious are their sins, but also infinite is Thy mercy.  Visit the bitter destitution of souls far removed from Thee; O Lord, have mercy on those who hated the truth out of ignorance, let Thy love be to them not a burning fire, but the cool delight of Paradise.


Hi DAVID, Is this related to the Catholic tradition- do you know the back story on "akathist" or maybe what tradition is from - just curious.

Quote from: Andrew on November 08, 2019, 09:56:02 PM
Is this related to the Catholic tradition- do you know the back story on "akathist" or maybe what tradition is from - just curious.

It's from the Orthodox tradition.  Many Orthodox view Catholics the way many Catholics view Protestants:  as people who broke away from the truest, most-complete faith.
As far as I can tell, Catholics pray for those in 'purgatory,' and do prayers for the dead (who might or might not be in:  purgatory; heaven), but as far as I know, don't pray for those in hell (though they'd be quick to say, 'I have no idea if X is or isn't in hell; who knows, maybe he repented at the last moment and entered purgatory').

Sometimes when people die, they don't get brought to one of the heavenly realms, nor to one of the hellish realms, but instead continue to loiter around earth.  Saying prayers for those dead people can help them move on to where they're supposed to next go.

_The Healing of Families: How To Pray Effectively for Those Stubborn Personal and Familial Problems_ by Yozefu B. Ssemakula
https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Families-Effectively-Stubborn-Personal/dp/0984886214/
_A Guide To Healing the Family Tree_ by Kenneth McAll
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Healing-Family-Tree/dp/1882972643/
_Regions of Captivity_ by Ana Mendez Ferrell
https://www.amazon.com/Regions-Captivity-Ana-Mendez-Ferrell/dp/1933163224/

A Catholic prayer:

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fire of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy.

Many people speak of Catholics without having been one. I've been catholic most of my life. Currently I don't really follow any specific branch of Christianity, but Catholics are allowed to hope and pray that all are saved, or all will be saved, though the reality is left a "mystery" at this time.

I do think the Orthodox faith is most open to UR, with Catholicism second, and Protestant churches I've attended and Protestant friends tell me that their beliefs are more rigid and less open to the idea: they believe often that there is a small percentage going to heaven and the rest to hell. They think that only their branch of Christianity is the road to heaven.

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 02, 2020, 03:00:59 PMCatholics are allowed to hope and pray that all are saved, or all will be saved, though the reality is left a 'mystery' at this time

I regularly pray a modified version of the Orthodox prayers for those in hell.  Are you aware of any Catholic prayers for those in hell?

https://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universal_salvation_roman_catholic.html

If I'm representing the beliefs correctly, I think the Catholics would say there is no escape from hell, but we don't know who, if anyone, is in hell, so they pray for all of the departed... so they'd hope and pray that all the departed were either in purgatory or heaven, and then from there pray for those in purgatory.

It's interesting, purgatory is literally a purging/cleansing fire, which is closer to the idea of a temporary hell for the purposes of refining.

Because God became man in Jesus' incarnation, _every_ human is a member of God's family.  Some family members are closer to the King than others.  It'd be great if:
* every member of the family were closer to our Father than I am;
* every family member prayed for all family members-- themselves included-- to become ever-closer to our Father-- and worked toward that end.

The remarks below are said to be from Jesus.

_In the Presence of God:  Meditations with Christ on the Divine Indwelling_ by Clarence J. Enzler (1973), 138pp., 72-74
You Are of God's Family

_... a child is born to us, a son is given us ..."_ (Is. 9:5).

One member of the human race not only has God dwelling in Him, but is Himself God.

This holds special meaning for you.

It means that when you are joined to Me you _belong to My Father's own intimate family_.

Of your own nature you are simply My Father's creature.  But since He wanted you and all men to be more, He implanted in man a super-human life, a wonderful communication of and participation in His own divine life, which you call "grace."  By grace you become not merely My Father's creature but His friend and even His adopted child.

Man lost this gift of grace, thus breaking the line of communication between the Divine Being and himself.  Yet, through the incalculable measure of the Divine Being's love, this loss provided the occasion for the incomparably greater gift that would flow from My Incarnation.

Whereas before, mankind carried in it only an offshoot of the divine life, now as the result of God-made-man, one Man, one Member of your race, _is_ God.

In this singular Man a human nature does not exist by itself.  No, for just this once, a distinct human nature is incorporated into a divine Person, so that the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, possessor of the divine nature, becomes also through his possession of a human nature the son of man.

Somewhat as skin can be engrafted on your body so that it becomes one with and part of your body, so, in a sense, a human nature was instantaneously "engrafted" onto My divine nature, causing the divine and the human to be joined in one Person.

Mark well the phrase, "in _one_ Person;" that is the essence of God-Made-Man.

It means that the Son of Man is not merely a man in whom the nature of God is also somehow present.  _He is God made flesh_.

Rather than being a friend or an adopted human son of the Divine Being by decree or by gift-- which was all that any man previously could be-- I, the Christ, am the Father's _natural_ Son, His Son by inalienable right, His divine Son living in the created universe.

With the Incarnation the _fullness_ of the divine life _belongs_ to one member of the human race.

-- -- --

But, how does this place you in a new relationship to God?  How does it make you a member of God's family?

As My Father's Son, I am one with Him and the Holy Spirit.  As Mary's Son, however, I am a member with you of the human family.  Somewhat as two families are united through intermarriage, the union of My divinity with My humanity unites all members of the human race with the Divine Being.

When the king is your monarch and you are simply his subject, that is one relationship.  But when the king marries into your family, and his love produces a son, you and all members of your family are joined in a new relationship to the king himself.

Somewhat similarly, through My Incarnation, the family of man becomes the family of God.

The entire race, indeed, is lifted up to a kind of one-ness with the ONE WHO IS-- because _humanity is introduced into the Trinity; a man is placed on God's throne_.

This, indeed, is a mind-shattering truth.  The full consequences for mankind are incomprehensible.  Only by reflecting on it at great length can you begin to grasp the inconceivable dignity to which the Incarnation has elevated the human race.

Listen, My other self, to what some of My saints have said as they tried to express the meaning of God-made-man.
Listen to Augustine:  "God has become man that man might become God."
To Cyprian:  "What man is Christ wished to be, that man in turn might be what Christ is."
To Irenaeus:  "He became what we are, in order that He might make us what He is."
To Leo:  "He so united Himself to us and us to Him, that the descent of God to the human level was at the same time the ascent of man to the divine level."
To Athanasius:  "As the Lord became man by putting on our body, so shall we men be deified, assumed by His flesh."

Contemplate these truths, My other self:  Contemplate and begin to know yourself!

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 03, 2020, 02:56:10 PMpurgatory is literally a purging/cleansing fire, which is closer to the idea of a temporary hell for the purposes of refining

In Catholic thought, everyone in 'purgatory' is headed to heaven, eventually.
IMO, everyone in gehenna, sheol, and all the hellish afterlife realms is headed to heaven, eventually.  And the prayers of those not in the hellish realms can assist those in the hellish realms.

Kevin L. Zadai, in _The Cloud of Witnesses in the Courts of Heaven_, ed. by Robert Henderson (2019), 167pp., 156-157
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0768446473/
Then the angel... said, "You need to read Second Corinthians, chapter 5, especially verse 17.  You have been called to a ministry of reconciliation."  ....he said, "People need to be told that they have been bought and purchased, that all of humanity has been bought and purchased.  They need to be told that the price has already been paid.  You tell them that God has purchased them through Jesus Christ, and this is the powers of the coming age."  .... I can spiritually raise people from the dead just by testifying of Jesus.  Testifying of Christ initiates that resurrection power.  It's a function of the ministry of reconciliation.  The angel.... said [re: 2Cor 5], "You need to learn the whole chapter."

Quote from: DavidFord on January 04, 2020, 02:47:54 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 03, 2020, 02:56:10 PMpurgatory is literally a purging/cleansing fire, which is closer to the idea of a temporary hell for the purposes of refining

In Catholic thought, everyone in 'purgatory' is headed to heaven, eventually.
IMO, everyone in gehenna, sheol, and all the hellish afterlife realms is headed to heaven, eventually.  And the prayers of those not in the hellish realms can assist those in the hellish realms.

Yes, my belief as well!

Quote from: DavidFord on January 17, 2020, 04:40:26 AM
Kevin L. Zadai, in _The Cloud of Witnesses in the Courts of Heaven_, ed. by Robert Henderson (2019), 167pp., 156-157
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0768446473/
Then the angel... said, "You need to read Second Corinthians, chapter 5, especially verse 17.  You have been called to a ministry of reconciliation."  ....he said, "People need to be told that they have been bought and purchased, that all of humanity has been bought and purchased.  They need to be told that the price has already been paid.  You tell them that God has purchased them through Jesus Christ, and this is the powers of the coming age."  .... I can spiritually raise people from the dead just by testifying of Jesus.  Testifying of Christ initiates that resurrection power.  It's a function of the ministry of reconciliation.  The angel.... said [re: 2Cor 5], "You need to learn the whole chapter."

Amen

Hi David,

Kevin L Zandai came and spoke at a church I went to last year and I have one of his books. I did not got the impression that he was a universalist. I believe he said something like "God will still love you even if you end up in hell". The church for sure that I was at when he was there doesn't believe in universalism. Do you know if he now is a universalist? That quote makes it sound like he could be but it doesn't actually say everyone will be saved IMO so I'm not sure. That book it says was written in 2019 and he came to my church in 2019... 

And also is his book that I read he does seem to suggest a forever hell  but if you have other information to the contrary (like sharing more of what he posted from that book that you posted) I would very much like to hear it.

Andrew   

  good stuff David !!    and agree also  our lower thoughts are of the world and carnal and a type of prison from all the voices and  lies  fed to us from  the tree of knowledge of good and evil .  and touching this tree .   


James 4 teaches us that our tongue is the unruly little member, that no man can tame ,  that sets this course of hell  and fire , place of torment , if the mind  is  trapped by  all the voices that  the lies  hold on too .  only than will the TRUTH set us free .     We hear His Voice and LIVE
GODS LOVE IS GREATER THAN SIN  AND DEATH . the temporary abode .. 
  I agree that that raising the dead to Life again , is to plant the tree of   LIFE IN THEM TO EAT OF ...     THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD and the truth  that comes forth out of    faith in HIM by GOD OWN SPIRIT .  we are than connected to the greater   LIGHT & LIFE  full of LOVE . 
This to me is the power  source that is endless  and is limitless that always was and IS  NOW  and will always be ...... 

IT IS THE TRUTH  that sets us free  into the great liberty of being called the sons of God ... spiritual beings  in clay suits .

and His work will only increase  as many come to the Light  and awaken  from the sleep of death in Adam . 

just some excitement on this revelation   of knowing  the truth .    :dsunny:   

Quote from: Andrew on January 17, 2020, 05:17:01 AMhis book that I read he does seem to suggest a forever hell  but if you have other information to the contrary (like sharing more of what he posted from that book that you posted) I would very much like to hear it.

He wrote only a chapter for the book.  The idea of a forever hell is the conventional view, so chances are that he accepts it.  If he accepts it, I think he needs to revisit the angel's advice to him, and study 2Cor 5 again.

2Corinthians 5:14-21 (Etheridge), http://dukhrana.com
14 For the love of the Meshiha constraineth us, because we judge this,
That if one for every man hath died,
then (was) every man dead.
15 And for every man he died,
that they who live should not live to themselves,
but to him who on their behalf died and arose.
16 And henceforth we no man know according to the flesh;
and if we have known the Meshiha according to the flesh, [Baphgar, "In the body."]
yet from now we know not.
17-18 Whoever therefore is in the Meshiha is a new creature;
the old things have passed,
and every thing hath become new from Aloha,
who hath reconciled us to himself in the Meshiha,
and given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
19 For Aloha is in the Meshiha,
who hath reconciled the world with his greatness;
and he hath not reckoned unto them their sins,
and hath put in us the word of reconciliation.
20 WE are ambassadors then for the Meshiha,
and as if Aloha himself besought you by us:
instead of the Meshiha, [Chaloph Meshiha.] therefore, we beseech,
Be you reconciled unto Aloha.
21 For Him who knew not sin,
on our account hath he made sin,
that we might be in him the righteousness of Aloha.

_66 Love Letters: A Conversation with God that Invites You into His Story_ (2009), 400pp. by Larry Crabb; on 264, 265 in the chapter on Ephesians
https://www.amazon.com/66-Love-Letters-Conversation-Invites/dp/0849946409/
And finally, expect opposition.  My enemy will stand against you at every turn.  You are no match for him.  But My Spirit is in you.  My enemy is no match for Him.  ....
* _Keep the helmet of salvation on your head_.  Keep hope alive.  No matter what happens, no matter how you fail, all shall be well and (as Julian of Norwich heard Me say) all manner of things shall be well.
* _Never stop reading my letters_.  My word is My Spirit's sword.  Use it to fight evil, first in you, then around you.
* _Learn to pray_.  Pray in My Spirit, on all occasions, with all kinds of prayers and requests, for everyone you know, especially those who suffer for my sake [6:1-18]."

Frank Laubach, _You Are My Friends (1942), 178pp., 48-50
Some of us always walk on the right side of the sidewalk so that Jesus can walk unseen on our left side. We talk to him about the people who are passing. The following conversation with Jesus actually took place on the street:

"I am so glad, dear Christ, that you are unseen by my side. I can see you with my mind's eye, turning your face toward me, putting your arm around me. The other people would be surprised if they saw you that way. They would wonder who you are, wouldn't they, Master?"

"This, my friend, is what I have longed for you to do, since you were a little child. The joy you feel inside your heart is my joy, which I am sharing with you.  ....  Yes, I am looking into their souls. I am watching for occasions to penetrate their hearts. I have been watching all day and all night and all year. This is why I am ultimately undefeatable, because I never grow weary of waiting for my chance until the day when they will grow hungry for me."
....
"What can we do, Master, together, for these people that we meet? What can I do, Lord, to help you, as I go by?"

"You can look into their eyes with love and think of me as you look. Your thought will be like a re-broadcasting station and will help them to open their minds to my spirit. When they look at you, they attune themselves to you, although they are not aware of me. So I reach them through you. That is how each of us helps the other. In such mutual aid our friendship grows closer."
....
We can so train ourselves as to be able to hear his voice, to speak his language, and to know his thoughts.

:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: DavidFord on March 01, 2020, 03:45:20 PM
Frank Laubach, _You Are My Friends (1942), 178pp., 48-50
Some of us always walk on the right side of the sidewalk so that Jesus can walk unseen on our left side. We talk to him about the people who are passing. The following conversation with Jesus actually took place on the street:

"I am so glad, dear Christ, that you are unseen by my side. I can see you with my mind's eye, turning your face toward me, putting your arm around me. The other people would be surprised if they saw you that way. They would wonder who you are, wouldn't they, Master?"

"This, my friend, is what I have longed for you to do, since you were a little child. The joy you feel inside your heart is my joy, which I am sharing with you.  ....  Yes, I am looking into their souls. I am watching for occasions to penetrate their hearts. I have been watching all day and all night and all year. This is why I am ultimately undefeatable, because I never grow weary of waiting for my chance until the day when they will grow hungry for me."
....
"What can we do, Master, together, for these people that we meet? What can I do, Lord, to help you, as I go by?"

"You can look into their eyes with love and think of me as you look. Your thought will be like a re-broadcasting station and will help them to open their minds to my spirit. When they look at you, they attune themselves to you, although they are not aware of me. So I reach them through you. That is how each of us helps the other. In such mutual aid our friendship grows closer."
....
We can so train ourselves as to be able to hear his voice, to speak his language, and to know his thoughts.

Quote from: DavidFord on January 21, 2020, 05:24:22 AM
_66 Love Letters: A Conversation with God that Invites You into His Story_ (2009), 400pp. by Larry Crabb; on 264, 265 in the chapter on Ephesians
https://www.amazon.com/66-Love-Letters-Conversation-Invites/dp/0849946409/
And finally, expect opposition.  My enemy will stand against you at every turn.  You are no match for him.  But My Spirit is in you.  My enemy is no match for Him.  ....
* _Keep the helmet of salvation on your head_.  Keep hope alive.  No matter what happens, no matter how you fail, all shall be well and (as Julian of Norwich heard Me say) all manner of things shall be well.
* _Never stop reading my letters_.  My word is My Spirit's sword.  Use it to fight evil, first in you, then around you.
* _Learn to pray_.  Pray in My Spirit, on all occasions, with all kinds of prayers and requests, for everyone you know, especially those who suffer for my sake [6:1-18]."

Amen we can train ourselves (be trained.. all of us are!) to hear His heart.. And to see Father's view(point)..

:thumbsup:

John Pulsford, _Infoldings and Unfoldings of the Divine Genius in Nature and Man_ (1887), 108pp., 27-28
https://archive.org/stream/infoldingsunfold00puls/infoldingsunfold00puls_djvu.txt
XI. As soon as the severance from the earthly
body is effected, the soulish body, which has been
day by day, for years, refining and clarifying, begins
more rapidly to be purified from all the remains of
its fleshly defilement.  As a plant which has acquired
a good root in winter, grows rapidly, when summer
comes ; so, the inner man, which during the earth-
life, has become rooted and grounded in the Christly
nature, soon develops his full, glorious, human
form, under the summer glory of the heavenly
regions.  Relieved from the superincumbent flesh,
the pure fire of the Divine Life, which was all but
suffocated, glows forth, and the man appears in his
luminous or glorified form.  In other words, the
earthly body quenches the indwelling Glory ; while
the future soulish body reveals it, as its ultimate
clothing, or "wedding garment."

Clearly distinguish then, between what Paul calls
"the body of this death," and your inner body of
purer elements,-- that "building of God,"-- which is
to show forth and illustrate the eternal principles,
loves, and delights, of the Divine Nature.

XII. Of course heavy souls, who have been carnalized
by their connection with the flesh, do not rise
at death.  Their weight of earthliness holds them
down, and they must undergo searching processes
of purification before they can begin to ascend.

But from those who are partakers of the pure,
bright, Christ-nature, earthly decease withdraws the
heavy curtains of the lower atmospheres, and they
glide into the rosy light of Heaven's morning.
Suddenly they find themselves, they know not how,
in the midst of well-known friends.  They are too
much at home to wonder ; nor does it occur to
them, at first, to compare or contrast their new
circumstances with their old conditions.

On 36-38:
VI. True, for a little while, we shall be living in
different worlds.  But if I, as Perfected Man, live in
Heaven, you, as perfecting men, will follow Me.
Heaven is the final Home of perfect human forms
living in the sensible Glory of the Eternal Father's Love.

Be not afraid.  We shall meet again.  The only
Eternal and Almighty Law in the Universe, is
Love's Law.  All laws which are not from Love, are
momentary.  Over all separations, distances, deaths,
Love prevails.  Nothing can take you out of My
Heart, nothing can take Me out of your heart.  We
shall meet therefore, and make home together.

Death has power over flesh, your flesh and Mine ;
but Death has no power over Love.  Death reaches
not into God, nor into the sphere of God.  The
Glory of The Father is the proper sphere of His
children.  Your real identity is hidden from death, in God.

VII. My Love to you did not begin on Earth. It
is not dependent, therefore, on the earth, nor on any
other world.  Love created all material and all
heavenly mansions, as habitations for Love's
children.  "Let not your heart be troubled."  If you
grow old in one form of your nature, you shall grow
young in another form of your nature.  Love's
resources are infinite.  If the earths or the Heavens
which Love has made for you, dissolve, the Love
which made them will make new Earths and new
Heavens.  You cannot count the worlds which float
in space : nor can the mansions of the Great
Father's Eternal House be numbered.  Yet ever
new mansions, for new races and peoples, are being
created.

VIII. I go into the Heavens _to found a new world_
for you, and your race.

There are innumerable mansions which are not
adapted to you.  You would not be at home in
them.  I will prepare for you _your own place_.
I carry a new order of Humanity into the Heavens, from
which, and according to which, a new heavenly
creation will begin to evolve.  I am the First of the
new heaven, which I will people from your race.
The unfallen angels have yet much to learn.

I introduce a higher Law, a more comprehensive
Law, into the angelic Heavens.  Powers are become
subject to Me which have never been subject to the
angels.  My return to "My Father's House" will
introduce a higher Law, and will be the founding of
a fuller and more ultimate style of Humanity in the
midst of the angels, than they have ever known.
They will desire to be made flesh, that they may
become richer in spirit.

IX. The new Heaven, of which I am the Foundation
and the Beginning, is of necessity _central_.  It is
central because it comprehends more than any
former Heaven ; and will be more potent for good.
In due time, when the multitudes out of every
generation which I will gather into it, are organized,
and operate as one Divine Energy, its influence will
reach to the ends of sin, and to the depths of Hell.
Such is the Father's plan for His House, that in its
centre every virtue and peculiarity should be
represented, and that it should have power over all
evil, and bear an equal relationship to His fallen and
unfallen races.

X. We know not at what rate other heavens are
growing : many of them may be comparatively
stationary.  But the New Heaven founded by Christ
must have been growing by millions yearly, century
after century.  And its energies, abilities, and
organizations for good, must be growing and
perfecting as rapidly as its population is multiplying.
If young men and women could be got to dwell
upon it, nothing is so fitted to kindle their lofty and
pure enthusiasm as the prospect of emigration to
this Kingdom of kingdoms,-- the Kingdom of the
Incarnation in redeemed humanity.  The highest
places and honours of the political world are not
worthy of the soul's enthusiasm ; but the final
kingdom of humanity is quite worthy of the soul's
loftiest passion.

Is God the painful, purifying fire some experience?
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15013.msg215832#msg215832

intriguing dream in Michael Wood's _The Jerome Conspiracy_ (2010), 153-4
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15030.msg217064#msg217064

New Books on Victorious Gospel (Biblical Universalism)
https://youtu.be/Mu48__lhBC0

Sometimes, events demonstrate that the words that crossed one's mind are from God.
E.g., Brad Jersak's van broke down, and he ended up running along the highway at nighttime.  Cars were whizzing by.  Words crossed his mind:  "You might want to get right off the highway for the next vehicle."
He asked aloud, "All the way off?" and got a quiet whisper back:  "Yes, all the way off."  He said "Okay" and got over the white concrete barrier.  The next vehicle that passed was carrying a house which would have hit him had he remained on the shoulder.

_Can You Hear Me?: Tuning in to the God Who Speaks_ by Brad Jersak (2012), 296pp., 55
https://www.amazon.com/Can-You-Hear-Me-Tuning/dp/1484935179/

Quote from: DavidFord on September 30, 2018, 09:55:06 PM
On
https://www.thefreedomassignment.com/marks-blog-space
doing control-f/ 'find' for: torture
brings one to a written 2-way discussion between Mark Holloway and God, wherein God discounts the idea of His sending people to never-ending torture.

Holloway wrote 2 books of his conversations with God, and has a facebook page at
https://facebook.com/thefreedomassignment

very interesting !

_Communion With God_ by Neale Donald Walsch (2000), 229pp., on 154-155.  These are said to be remarks by God:

Nothing has captured the imagination of humans more completely than the idea that hell exists, that there is a place in the Universe to which God condemns those who have not obeyed His law.
Frightening, gruesome pictures of this horrific place appear in frescoes on the ceilings and walls of churches all over the world. Equally upsetting images adorn the pages of catechism texts and Sunday-school booklets given to little children-- the better to scare them with.

And while good, church-going people have for centuries believed the message that these images send, it happens that the message is false. That is why I inspired Pope John Paul II to indicate to a Papal Audience at the Vatican (July 28, 1999) that "improper use of biblical pictures must not create psychosis or anxiety." The biblical descriptions of hell are symbolic and metaphorical.
I inspired the Pope to say that the "inextinguishable fire" and "the burning oven" the Bible speaks of "indicate the complete frustration and vacuity of a life without God." Hell is a state of separation from God, he explained, a state caused not by a punishing God but rather, _self-induced_.
It is not God's function to administer retribution or to punish anyone, and the Pope made that clear in his Audience.

"God has become man that man might become God"
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15013.msg216333#msg216333

_The New Revelations: A Conversation with God_ (2002), 358pp. by Neale Donald Walsch.  On 126-128, my brackets:
[God] There's no such thing as reward and punishment in my kingdom.  Yet, saying that there is no such thing as "punishment" is not the same as saying there are no consequences.
When you do the thing called "die"-- that is, after you end your time with a physical body here on Earth-- you will be given the opportunity for a Life Review.  In fact, you will _ask for it_.  You will _want it_.  It will be a major part of the process by which you come to know more about yourself and about Life, by which you evolve.

During this Life Review process you will be allowed to experience every moment of your life, everything that you ever thought, said, or did.  This experience will be comprehensive.  You will not only experience this from your point of view, you will experience it from the point of view of _every person whose life you touched_.
You will be able to experience what _they_ experienced as a result of what you were thinking, saying, or doing.

[Walsch] Let me see if I understand this.  I will move through all of my life's interactions with others, one interaction at a time, _from the other's point of view_?

[God] Exactly.

[Walsh] My God, that _would_ be hell.

[God] No.  It would be remembering.  You will remember Who You Really Are and who you can become by coming to know what others experienced at your hands.  But even if it was painful for them, you will not suffer.

[Walsch] How can that be?

[God] Suffering is a point of view.  Remember that.  Pain is an experience; suffering is a point of view _about_ that experience.  You will experience the pain-- as a mother experiences the pain of childbirth-- but you will not think of it as suffering.  To complete the analogy, you will experience it as the joy of giving birth. In this case, to a New You.  To a You who now understands more, comprehends more, realizes more, knows more-- and is ready to experience the Self in a new way as a result.
This process is called evolution.  And in this process of evolution the primitive concepts of "reward and punishment" have no place.

Quote from: DavidFord on April 02, 2021, 04:17:49 PM
"God has become man that man might become God"
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15013.msg216333#msg216333

wow, pretty mindblowing !

Quote from: darryl on April 03, 2021, 01:33:58 PMwow, pretty mindblowing !

Indeed.
me to someone:  Do you disagree with any of this Jesus?:

John 10 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/niv/john/10.htm
33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?
35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came-- and Scripture cannot be set aside-- ....

Sadhu Sundar Singh on theosis
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15030.msg215532#msg215532

Do you see anything erroneous here?:

Theosis: Partaking of the Divine Nature
http://ww1.antiochian.org/content/theosis-partaking-divine-nature
C. S. Lewis understood this concept and expressed it compellingly in Mere Christianity:
The command "Be ye perfect" is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-- for we can prevent Him, if we choose-- He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creatures, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to Him perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said. (Macmillan, 1952, p. 174)

======================================.
"it teaches perfectionism. We will never be perfect in this life"
Is this possible?:

1 John 4:17 (King James), https://biblehub.com/kjv/1_john/4-17.htm
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

_A Course in Miracles_ is a massive tome said to be dictated by Jesus to 2 people who were atheist/agnostic.

Chapter 2 -- VIII. The Meaning of the Last Judgment
https://acourseinmiraclesnow.com/course-miracles-chapter-2-viii-meaning-last-judgment/
T-2.VIII.1. One of the ways in which you can correct the magic-miracle confusion is to remember that you did not create yourself. 2 You are apt to forget this when you become egocentric, and this puts you in a position where a belief in magic is virtually inevitable. 3 Your will to create was given you by your Creator, Who was expressing the same Will in His creation. 4 Since creative ability rests in the mind, everything you create is necessarily a matter of will. 5 It also follows that whatever you alone make is real in your own sight, though not in the Mind of God. 6 This basic distinction leads directly into the real meaning of the Last Judgment.

T-2.VIII.2. The Last Judgment is one of the most threatening ideas in your thinking. 2 This is because you do not understand it. 3 Judgment is not an attribute of God. 4 It was brought into being only after the separation, when it became one of the many learning devices to be built into the overall plan. 5 Just as the separation occurred over millions of years, the Last Judgment will extend over a similarly long period, and perhaps an even longer one. 6 Its length can, however, be greatly shortened by miracles, the device for shortening but not abolishing time. 7 If a sufficient number become truly miracle-minded, this shortening process can be virtually immeasurable. 8 It is essential, however, that you free yourself from fear quickly, because you must emerge from the conflict if you are to bring peace to other minds.

T-2.VIII.3. The Last Judgment is generally thought of as a procedure undertaken by God. 2 Actually it will be undertaken by my brothers with my help. 3 It is a final healing rather than a meting out of punishment, however much you may think that punishment is deserved. 4 Punishment is a concept totally opposed to right-mindedness, and the aim of the Last Judgment is to restore right-mindedness to you. 5 The Last Judgment might be called a process of right evaluation. 6 It simply means that everyone will finally come to understand what is worthy and what is not. 7 After this, the ability to choose can be directed rationally. 8 Until this distinction is made, however, the vacillations between free and imprisoned will cannot but continue.

T-2.VIII.4. The first step toward freedom involves a sorting out of the false from the true. 2 This is a process of separation in the constructive sense, and reflects the true meaning of the Apocalypse. 3 Everyone will ultimately look upon his own creations and choose to preserve only what is good, just as God Himself looked upon what He had created and knew that it was good. 4 At this point, the mind can begin to look with love on its own creations because of their worthiness. 5 At the same time the mind will inevitably disown its miscreations which, without belief, will no longer exist.

T-2.VIII.5. The term "Last Judgment" is frightening not only because it has been projected onto God, but also because of the association of "last" with death. 2 This is an outstanding example of upside-down perception. 3 If the meaning of the Last Judgment is objectively examined, it is quite apparent that it is really the doorway to life. 4 No one who lives in fear is really alive. 5 Your own last judgment cannot be directed toward yourself, because you are not your own creation. 6 You can, however, apply it meaningfully and at any time to everything you have made, and retain in your memory only what is creative and good. 7 This is what your right-mindedness cannot but dictate. 8 The purpose of time is solely to "give you time" to achieve this judgment. 9 It is your own perfect judgment of your own perfect creations. 10 When everything you retain is lovable, there is no reason for fear to remain with you. 11 This is your part in the Atonement.

Do you agree with the claim that "most, if not all, of the good things that" human bodies do are attributable to God?

_One Truth, One Law: I Am, I Create_ by Erin Werley (2020), 112pp., on 42
amazon.com/One-Truth-Law-Am-Create/dp/1734363800/
I'm always coming through in some bodies some of the time. You are often me, but you don't know it. Most, if not all, of the good things that these bodies do is me. The things you're not proud of are the persona acting out of fear. When you're being brave and strong and doing something you're proud of, that's usually me. Sometimes, it's the persona doing something that the persona thinks is for good, and it's really not.

Philippians 2:13 (PHILLIPS)
biblegateway.com/verse/en/Philippians 2:13
For it is God who is at work within you,
giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.

ACIM, Lesson 324. This was supposedly dictated by Jesus.
https://acim.org/acim/lesson-324/i-merely-follow-for-i-would-not-lead/en/s/746
I merely follow, for I would not lead.
1. Father, You are the One Who gave the plan for my salvation to me. You have set the way I am to go, the role to take, and every step in my appointed path. I cannot lose the way. ⁴I can but choose to wander off a while, and then return. ⁵Your loving Voice will always call me back, and guide my feet aright. ⁶My brothers all can follow in the way I lead them. ⁷Yet I merely follow in the way to You, as You direct me and would have me go.

2. So let us follow One Who knows the way. We need not tarry, and we cannot stray except an instant from His loving Hand. We walk together, for we follow Him. ⁴And it is He Who makes the ending sure, and guarantees a safe returning home.

Belief that one is destined for hell can result in experiencing hell.

_The Jesus Secret: Who I Am_ by Daniel Yordy (2007), 197pp., on 114
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Secret-Who-Am/dp/147913208X/
My Father has an absolute law that cannot be changed. Every living soul must receive what he or she believes. Some are still convinced that the "man of sin" is very much alive in them and must still be crucified. Pay no attention. How can evil live in the same Heart that I have made My Throne? But I told you clearly that everything inside of you that God once hated, that needed to die, is DEAD. And I command you to believe it is so. As you believe that you are really and truly free from sin and really and truly alive to God-- so shall you receive!
The others? They also will achieve what they believe to be true. Believing that My Cross is finished in you is as important as believing that I live in you.
Stand in My Grace.

_Misfit in Hell to Heaven Expat:  Lessons from a Dark Near-Death Experience and How to Avoid Hell in the Afterlife_ (2020), 468pp., on 460- 462, 468
https://www.amazon.com/Misfit-Hell-Heaven-Expat-Near-Death/dp/1952146127/
interview of her:
Good Catholic Goes to Hell; Says Religion Is to Blame
https://youtu.be/MfOAvfwEMVs
We all have the same task of being loving and kind to others, and ourselves, in this life.
I guess I needed a jumpstart to open my eyes and heart to the reality of our common flawed existence and to what our loving God has planned for us.
...
One morning, as I gazed at the picture of Jesus I keep on my bedside table, I asked God what I needed to do to never go to hell again.
How can I go to heaven instead?
I heard my Voice very clearly repeating:
_Loving and kind, loving and kind, loving and kind_.
...
My new morning mantra was easy to remember:
_"Jesus, help me to be loving and kind."_
A few months later, as I looked at His picture, I heard the words "merciful and forgiving."
...
Two more words came to me later that year:
"encouraging and grateful."
...
After another long period, I was told,
"Nonjudgmental."
Ouch! 
This reminder came at a particularly relevant time.
A few months ago, one last word was shared with me.
I was told to be "useful."
...
The second part of my avoidance of hell starts with a firm belief in my own getting directly into God's realm after my next death, as so many other NDE experiencers did.
...
I choose to believe in God's unconditional and unparalleled love and mercy for me, and await with as much confidence as my weak human self can muster for the incredible and overwhelming experience of being joined with God again, and to finally being Home to stay.
...
There is no "opt-out" box to check when you die, so please prepare thoughtfully.

=====================================
Love created me like Himself.
Holiness created me holy.
Kindness created me kind.
Helpfulness created me helpful.
Love created me loving.
Perfection created me perfect.
-- based on
https://acim.org/acim/lesson-67/love-created-me-like-itself/en/s/470

Genesis 1:27 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/genesis/1-27.htm
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Genesis 9:6b (New Living)
https://biblehub.com/genesis/9-6.htm
...God made human beings in his own image.

2 Cor 4:4b (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/4-4.htm
...Christ, who is the image of God.

Matthew 5:48 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-48.htm
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

=====================================
_The Message of Sadhu Sundar Singh:  A Study in Mysticism on Practical Religion_ by B.H. Streeter and A.J. Appasamy (1922), 209pp., 95-96, 99-102
https://archive.org/stream/themessageofsadh00streuoft/themessageofsadh00streuoft_djvu.txt
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1293189901/
"There [in heaven] we realize not only the desires we have known in this life, but desires, which we did not even know that we had, are opened up and realized, because there is everything to satisfy them.  There I am satisfied, there there is nothing more to ask.  It is wonderful!  That is our home.

"I asked one of the Spirits the meaning of the passage in St. John:  'I said, Ye are gods.'  I was told that man has innumerable desires, and that these show that he is going to make infinite progress when in Heaven.  There we have more capacities than we have hairs of our head here.

"Another time I asked what Christ meant by saying, 'Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.'  He did not say 'Be perfect as the angels or the prophets.'  I had been puzzled by this.  Does it mean that we shall become God; and, if so, shall we rebel against Him?  They told me there that God wants us to be equal to Him, because Love always wants an object for affection equal to itself.  Just as men are not satisfied with loving animals merely, so God wants us to be equal to Him.  But if we became so, we could not rebel:  for we should then have an infinite knowledge of the Love of God, and that would bring with it infinite thankfulness.  There is no jealousy in Heaven.  Our Heavenly Father wants us to be made equal to Him.  There is no jealousy in Heaven.  There are differences of degree, but there are no disagreements.  Everyone is always on everyone else's side, and those who are low down in the scale feel so proud that their elder brothers are so big.
....
THE LAST JUDGMENT
"I inquired once, 'Will the dead stand in a line all together and be judged?'  I was told, No; after leaving the body the soul knows everything that has happened to it.  The memory of it all is clear and fresh, and thereby they are judged.  The heavenly light shows the wicked to themselves; they see at once that they cannot live in that fellowship of saints and angels.  They feel so out of place there, they find everything so uncongenial that they ask to be allowed to go away from Heaven.  Men are not turned out of Heaven by God.  Heaven is not a place with walls and gates where you have to ask for a ticket of admission.  The ticket of admission is the life a man has led.

"Those who are born again can see the Kingdom of Heaven and feel at home there, those who are not cannot do so.  This is the real judgment, and it is a judgment that is going on every day.  It is not effected by an act of God interposing between ourselves and Him, it is internal.  The Last Judgment will be a proclamation of the final result, when every true servant of God will be exalted before the whole creation.

"I was also told that in this world our spiritual bodies are inside our material bodies, and that when we sin it is like when we press with a point on paper behind which is a sheet of carbon; on the outside of the paper there is a very slight mark, but inside there is a clear black mark.  Thus our sins mark and scar our spiritual bodies, and the result of this will be seen when, after death, the spiritual body escapes from the material; and the revelation of the injury it has sustained will in itself be a large part of the judgment.

HELL
"I was also told that the love of God operates even in Hell.  God does not shine in His full light, because those there could not bear it, but He gradually shows them more and more light, and by and by brings them on and moves their conscience towards something better, although they think that the desire is entirely their own.

Thus God works on their minds from within, something in the same way, though in the opposite direction, as that in which Satan suggests temptation to us here.  Thus, what with God's work within and the Light without, almost all those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Christ's feet.  It will perhaps take millions of ages, but when it is attained they will be full of joy and thankfulness towards God; though they will still be less happy than those who have accepted Christ on earth.  Thus Hell also is a training school, a place of preparation for Home.  Those in Hell know that it is not their home because they suffer there.  Men were not created for Hell and therefore do not enjoy it, and, when there, desire to escape to Heaven.  They do so, but they find Heaven even more uncongenial than Hell, so they return.  But this convinces them that there is something wrong in their lives, and thus they are gradually led to repentance.  At least, that is the case with the majority, but there are some few personalities, Satan for instance, in regard to whom I was told, 'Don't ask about them.'  And so I didn't like to ask, but I hoped that for them also there was some hope.

"They also told me that the Saints help in the work of saving souls in Hell, because there can be no idleness in Heaven.  Those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Heaven like the prodigal son, but with regard to the ultimate fate of a certain number you must not ask."  The Sadhu is inclined to think that perhaps these few will be annihilated.

"Once I said, 'So many people will be lost because they have not heard of Christ.'  They said, 'The contrary will be the case; very few will be lost.'  There is a kind of heavenly joke, no, joke is not a good word for it.  'Very few will be lost but many will be saved.  It is so, but don't tell,' they said, as it were, in jest, 'because it will make men careless, and we want them to enjoy the First Heaven-- that is the Heaven on earth-- as well.' "

"If there were no hope for all the non-Christians in the world and all the Christians who die in sin, God would stop creating men.  We must do our part here on earth to save sinners, but if they refuse we need not be without hope for them.

The Sadhu's "universalism" recalls the famous "Shewing" to Mother Juliana of Norwich, "All manner of things shall be well," and her comments thereon except that her respect for the authority of the Church precludes her making any suggestion _how_ this may be possible.  The Sadhu faithfully obeys the injunction, "Don't tell." In his popular teachings, as we shall see in the next chapter, he stresses the need of repentance, and the certainty of immediate judgment in the next life, but he never speaks of his hope of _ultimate_ salvation even for the unrepentant.

interesting...thank you !

Lev Gillet, _In Thy Presence_ (1977), on 34-35
https://archive.org/details/inthypresence0000gill/page/34/mode/2up?q=tomorrow
https://www.amazon.com/Thy-Presence-Lev-Gillet/dp/0913836346
By what kind of Love, then, art thou loved?
I do not say to thee: 'Thou hast been loved.'
Nor do I say to thee: 'Thou wilt be loved.'
I did not only love thee yesterday or the day before that.
I shall not only love thee tomorrow or the day after.
It is today, it is now, this minute, that thou art loved.

This is so in the case of every single person.
Thou art astonished My child, and dost question Me: 'Truly? In every case?'
Yes, in all cases.
Thou dost continue: 'Lord, how can it be so? Could he who sins against Thee, in the moment of sinning, be loved by Thee?'
Yes, My child.
If I did not continue to love the sinner, would I let him exist before Me?
Love is seated like a beggar at the door of someone who does not love.
He waits.
He will wait.
The length of My waiting outdoes all human forecasts.
Do not attempt to penetrate the mystery.
I wait.
And who can separate Me from My dear sinner.

"Father... I can but choose to wander off a while, and then return.
Your loving Voice will always call me back...
we follow Him.
And it is He Who makes the ending sure, and guarantees a safe returning home"

ACIM Lesson 324
https://acimdailylesson.com/324
I Merely Follow, For I Would Not Lead.
_Father, You are the One Who gave the plan for my salvation to me.
You have set the way I am to go, the role to take, and every step in my appointed path.
I cannot lose the way.
I can but choose to wander off a while, and then return.
Your loving Voice will always call me back, and guide my feet aright.
My brothers all can follow in the way I lead them.
Yet I merely follow in the way to You, as You direct me and would have me go_.

So let us follow One Who knows the way.
We need not tarry, and we cannot stray except an instant from His loving hand.
We walk together, for we follow Him.
And it is He Who makes the ending sure, and guarantees a safe returning home.

"Paternity does not cease when a son is ignorant, silly or wicked.
A father strives to teach his son, because it is love to instruct him.
A father works hard to make a mentally deficient son less silly.
A father tries to correct a wicked son and make him good with tears, being indulgent, with beneficial punishments and forgiving him mercifully.
That is what a man-father does.
And will the God-Father be perhaps inferior to the man-father?
So the God-Father loves all men and wants their salvation."

Maria Valtorta, _The Gospel as Revealed to Me_ vol 1-10
http://archive.org/details/maria-valtorta-vol-1-english202202/
aka _The Poem of the Man-God_ vol 1-5
http://amazon.com/POEM-MAN-GOD-Five-Set/dp/B001DBLAVS/ https://archive.org/details/maria-valtorta-vol-1-english202202/
file "Poem whole 1-5," from vol 4 of 5, on 302-306
https://archive.org/stream/maria-valtorta-vol-1-english_202202/Poem%20Whole%201-5%20%28%3Dthe%20Gospel%20as%20revealed%20to%20me%29_djvu.txt

Jesus raises His hand indicating that He wants to speak and everybody becomes silent.

'It is written: "You marched to save Your people, to save them through Your Christ". It is written: "And I will rejoice in the Lord and I will exult in God my Jesus". The people of Israel have taken these words for themselves and have given them a national, personal selfish meaning, which does not correspond to the truth concerning the person of the Messiah. They have given those words a restricted meaning which degrades the greatness of the Messianic idea to a common display of human power and of overwhelming victory over the rulers found by the Christ in Israel.

But the truth is different. It is great, unlimited. It comes from the true God, from the Creator and Lord of Heaven and Earth, from the Creator of Mankind, from Him Who multiplied the stars in the vault of heaven and covered the Earth with all kinds of plants, and peopled it with animals and placed fish in the waters and birds in the air, and likewise He multiplied the children of Man created by Him to be the king of Creation and His favourite creature. Now, how could the Lord, the Father of all mankind, be unfair to the children of the children of the children born of the Man and the Woman, formed by Him with matter: the earth, and with soul: His divine breath? And how could He treat these differently from those, as if they did not come from one only source, as if other branches had been created by some other supernatural antagonist, not by Him, and were consequently strangers, illegitimate, contemptible?

The true God is not a poor god of this or of that people, an idol, an unreal figure. He is the supreme Reality, the universal Reality, the Only Supreme Being, the Creator of all things and of all men. He is therefore the God of all men. He knows them even if they do not know Him. He loves them: even if they, not knowing Him, do not love Him, or if they do not know Him well and they do not love Him well, or even if they know Him, they do not know how to love Him. Paternity does not cease when a son is ignorant, silly or wicked. A father strives to teach his son, because it is love to instruct him. A father works hard to make a mentally deficient son less silly. A father tries to correct a wicked son and make him good with tears, being indulgent, with beneficial punishments and forgiving him mercifully. That is what a man-father does. And will the God-Father be perhaps inferior to the man-father? So the God-Father loves all men and wants their salvation. He, the King of an infinite Kingdom, the eternal King, looks at His people, which comprises all the peoples spread all over the Earth, and He says: "This is the people of those I created, the people to be saved through My Christ. This is the people for whom the Kingdom of Heaven was created. It is now time to save them by means of the Saviour".

Who is the Christ? Who is the Saviour? Who is the Messiah? There are many Greeks here, and many, even if they are not Greeks, know what the word Christ means. Christ is therefore the consecrated person, the person anointed with regal oil to fulfil His mission. Consecrated to what? Perhaps to the fleeting glory of a throne? Perhaps to the greater glory of priesthood? No. He is consecrated to gather under one only sceptre, into one only people, in one only doctrine, all men, so that they may be brothers to one another and children of one only Father, children who know their Father and comply with His Law to take part in His Kingdom.

Christ, a king in the name of the Father Who sent Him, reigns as it becomes His Nature, that is, divinely, as God. God has placed the world as the foot-stool of His Christ, not because He should oppress, but that He may save. His name is in fact Jesus, which in Hebrew means Saviour. When the Saviour saves His people from the fiercest snare and wound, a mountain will be under His feet and a multitude of people of every race will cover the mountain to symbolise that He reigns and rises above the whole Earth and above all peoples. But the King will be bare without any riches, except His Sacrifice, to symbolise that He tends only to spiritual things, and that spiritual things are conquered and redeemed with spiritual bra-very and heroical sacrifice, not with violence and gold. He will be like that to reply to those who fear Him and also to those who through false love exalt and degrade Him while wishing Him to be king according to the world. He will be like that to those as well who hate Him solely for fear of being deprived of what is dear to them. For His response is that He is a spiritual King and nothing else, sent to teach spirits how to conquer the Kingdom, the only Kingdom that I have come to establish.

I will not give you new laws. I confirm the Law of Sinai for Israelites; to Gentiles I say: the law to possess the Kingdom is nothing but the law of virtue which every man of noble morals imposes on himself and which, through faith in the true God, from moral law and human virtue becomes a superhuman moral law.

O Gentiles! It is your custom to proclaim gods the great men of your countries, and you place them among the many unreal gods with whom you people Olympus, created by you to have something in which to believe, because religion is a necessity for man, exactly as faith is a necessity, because faith is the permanent state of man and incredulity is the accidental abnormality. And those men raised to the rank of gods are not always worthy even as men, as at times they are great because of their brutal strength, at times through powerful cunning, at times also because of the power which they somehow achieved. So they carry with themselves, as qualifications of supermen, certain miseries which a wise man recognises for what they are: the rottenness of unrestrained passions. That I am speaking the truth is proved by the fact that in your chimerical Olympus you have not put a single one of those great spirits who sensed by intuition the supreme Being and were the intermediate agents between man and Divinity, which was instinctively perceived by them through their contemplative virtuous spirit. Between the reasoning spirit of a philosopher, of a true great philosopher, and the spirit of a true believer who worships the true God, the gap is small, whereas between the spirit of the believer and the ego of a cunning or overwhelming man, or of a man who is a hero only in a material way, there is an abyss. And yet you have not placed in your Olympus those who had been elevated by their virtuous lives so much above the human mass that they approached the kingdoms of the spirit, whereas you have put those whom you feared as cruel masters, or whom you adulated as servile slaves, or you admired as living examples of those free animal instincts which your abnormal appetites consider as the aim and purpose of life. And you have envied those who have been numbered among the gods, neglecting those who were closer to divinity because of their honest practices and of the doctrine, which they taught and according to which they lived virtuously.

I now solemnly tell you that I will give you the means to become gods. He who does what I say and believes in what I teach, will climb the true Olympus and will be god, god son of God, in a Heaven where there is no corruption whatsoever and where Love is the only law. In a Heaven where we love one another spiritually, without the dullness and snares of senses making its inhabitants hostile to one another, as it happens in your religions. I have not come to request deeds which are noisily heroical. I have come to say to you: live as becomes creatures gifted with soul and reason, not as brutes. Live in such a way as to deserve to live, to really live, with your immortal part, in the Kingdom of Him Who created you. I am the Life. I have come to teach you the Way to go to Life. I have come to give Life to you all, and I give it to you that you may rise from death, from your sepulchres of sin and idolatry. I am Mercy. I have come to call you and gather you all together. I am the Christ Saviour. My Kingdom does not belong to this world. And yet a kingdom is established in the hearts of those who believe in Me and in My word, even from the present days, and it is the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of God within you.

It is written of Me that I am He Who will bring justice among nations. It is true. Because if the citizens of each nation did what I teach, hatred, wars, overbearing actions would come to an end. It is written of Me that I would not raise My voice to curse sinners or My hand to destroy those who are like cracked canes and smoky wicks because of their unbecoming way of living. It is true. I am the Saviour and I have come to strengthen those who are weak, to give humour to those whose light is smoky through lack of the necessary essence. It is written of Me that I am He Who opens the eyes of blind people, and frees prisoners from jail and takes light to those who were in the darkness of prison. It is true. The blindest of blind people are those who cannot see the Light, that is, the true God, even with the sight of their souls. I, the Light of the world, have come that they may see. The most imprisoned prisoners are those whose chains are their wicked passions. Every other chain vanishes with the death of the prisoner. But the chains of vice last and enchain even after the death of the body. I have come to loosen them. I have come to relieve from the darkness of the dungeons of ignorance of God all those whom paganism smothers under the mass of its idolatries.

Come to Light and to Salvation. Come to Me because My Kingdom is the true one and My Law is good. All I ask of you is to love the Only God and your neighbour, and consequently to repudiate the idols and passions which harden your hearts and make you arid, sensual, thieves, homicides. The world says: "Let us oppress the poor, the weak, the lonely. Let force be our right, harshness our habit, intolerance, hatred, ferocity, our weapons. Let us crush the just man, since he does not react, let us oppress the widow and the orphan whose voices are weak". I say: be kind and meek, forgive your enemies, assist the weak, be honest in selling and purchasing, be generous also when asserting your rights, without taking advantage of your possibility to crush those who are oppressed. Do not avenge yourselves. Leave to God the care of protecting you. Be sober in all your dispositions, because moderation is proof of moral strength, whilst lust is proof of weakness. Be men and not brutes, and never fear of having fallen so low that you cannot rise again.

I solemnly tell you that as muddy water can become pure again evaporating in the sun, which purifies it by heating it, so that it may rise to the sky and fall as beneficial rain or dew, free from defilement, providing it is exposed to the sun, so the spirits which approach the great Light which is God and shout to Him: "I have sinned, I am filth, but I yearn for You, o Light" will become purified spirits which ascend to their Creator. Remove horror from death converting your lives into money to purchase the Life. Divest yourselves of your past as if it were a dirty garment and clothe yourselves with virtue. I am the Word of God and in His Name I tell you that those who have faith in Him and good will, those who repent of their past and make righteous resolutions for the future, whether they are Hebrews or Gentiles, will become the children of God and will possess the Kingdom of Heaven.

At the beginning of My speech I asked you: "Who is the Messiah?". I now say to you: It is I Who am speaking to you and My Kingdom is Your hearts if you are willing to receive it, and then it will be in Heaven, which I will open to you, if you persevere in My Doctrine. That is the Messiah and nothing else. He is the King of a spiritual kingdom, the gates of which He will open to all men of good will through His Sacrifice.'

Jesus has finished speaking and is about to go towards a short flight of stairs...