2-way chat with God: good Father vs. neverending torture

[DavidFord]

On
https://www.thefreedomassignment.com/marks-blog-space
doing control-f/ 'find' for: torture
brings one to a written 2-way discussion between Mark Holloway and God, wherein God discounts the idea of His sending people to never-ending torture.

Holloway wrote 2 books of his conversations with God, plus a 3rd book, and has a facebook page at
https://facebook.com/TheFreedomDiariesNZ/

[GodIsLove]

Is this the one u are referring to:

WHAT SORT OF FATHER DO YOU THINK I AM??
12/1/2018 0 COMMENTS

Why do you ask, God?

Because the things you believe and tell each other about me, anyone not familiar with your religion, would have to ask what sort of father do you really think I am? So I'm asking too, Mark, what sort of father do you think I am?

I'm not liking the sound of this, God.

Mark, remember when I compared God with human fathers?

You mean 'If you know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more does your father in heaven know how to give good gifts to you'?

Near enough, Mark. A LOT has been lost in translation and a lot of baggage added, but yes that one. The concept is simple - if you, with all your humanness, can be good fathers, then surely I can be too?

God, us Christians are fairly familiar with that concept, we probably know a lot more about godly fatherhood than the Jews did.

Hmmm. This might come as a shock, Mark, I'd like a wee discussion about the nonsense Satan and his servant Religion have taught Christianity and the similarities between you and the Jews.

God, really? Not another of these conversations!

Bear with me, Mark, Satan and Religion have fooled you Christians, it's nothing new, they did the same to the apostles on a number of occasions...

Aye?? Fooled the Apostles??

Absolutely. Haven't you read where they tricked the Apostles into thinking the non Jewish Christians needed to be circumcised? First the Jews, and now Christianity, you have been vulnerable to Satan and Religion for so long you have come to believe their most mischievous lies, you think they are gospel truth.

Nice one, God, I'm wanting to tell you to shut up. People won't like this.

Mark, stop kidding yourself. You love it when I say things that provoke annoyance and outrage. You want to destroy Religion, you want to see him bleed for the damage he's done to Christianity. It pleases you when I say things that ruffle religious feathers. Your real problem is that the things I say challenge what you personally believe - you think you're free from Religion's deceptions, but you're steeped in them.

That's a bit tough, God??

The things he has taught you are so poisonous it will take a lifetime before you are free of them. And even then, years from now when you see me face to face, you will be shocked at how many of his lies you still believe. Decades of hunting Religion down will not free you completely from his poison and deception. He is the most powerful and respected majesty in the demonic realm.

Religion is more murderous, more suffocating to personal freedom than any other principality or power. His greatest power is that he turns your attention on lesser kingdoms so that he can sneak in unnoticed.

He points at pornography, murder, violence, racism, but poses himself as a force for righteousness, the purveyor and foundation of all that is good, yet all the while he squeals with glee because you believe his lies. He is like the many denominations, sects and cults he has co-founded with you; 'clean and white on the outside, and full of dead men's bones on the inside'.

He has convinced you that you are in danger of punishment from me and lucky to be considered for salvation. But Mark, it's not about salvation, it's about relationship with the three of us, Father, Son and Spirit, and you're not lucky to be considered for it, you were born for it.

You are not the sorry sin-infested mess he tells you that you are, you are the pinnacle of creation, as Paul Young's masterful book 'Eve' states. You are the envy of the angelic kingdom, dark and light, and as John 3:16 puts it, I 'highly esteem' you.

God, can we stop a minute please. You know this is going to be too hard to swallow for so many well-meaning Christians. Can't we take it a bit slower, there has to be a more gentle doorway to all this?

Trust me, Mark, this is the best approach - Religion's power comes from the rules, regulations and fear, that he imposes on you. And his greatest victory is that Christianity's twisted view of me turns others away. You think you are evangelising the world with truth, but you have given them such a destructive view of me, that most of them are genuinely bewildered. The nonsense you tell them has them asking the obvious question.

What question, God?

What sort of father do you think I am?

But, God, we think you are a good father. We even sing that song; "You're a good good father".

Yes, I am good. But you believe the opposite.

God, that's hardly fair!

Mark, you sing I am good and the singing is intoxicating, just like any singing can be. You think you believe the words, but the things Religion has taught you, paint a different picture of me – they describe a mean and menacing God, intent on your punishment and harm. The nice words you sing about me are no match for the lies you believe.

But, God no, I think you're wrong, we think you are a good father!

Actually, you don't. You are convinced that you were born inescapably sinful.

Yes, but God, that's us, not you.

You're missing the point, Mark. You think you're born sinful but you also believe that each of you is created by me. You've never stopped to think through the lie!

What lie, God??

Mark, if I created you sinful then it is not you, but I, who is at fault. You can hardly be blamed for the way you were created.

No, God, it's not your fault, it's our fathers' or something.

Really? So I mix in something your fathers did when I create you, then I hold you responsible?

Well yes, apparently?

Mark, is it any wonder that the un-Christianised think you are mad and your God a tyrant?

Well yes, no, actually I don't know, God. Arguing with you is difficult.

Mark, the accuser blinds you to the obvious muddle that you have come to believe. He has so messed your minds with Religious filth that those who hear what you believe wonder if you have thrown away your minds.

If you really are created in sin, then how can I blame you for that? And how can any 'good, good father' torture you in burning liquid, unless you say sorry for things you had no control over.

But, God, it's not our sin at birth anymore that you throw us into hell for, that's all changed, now it's the stuff we do once we get to the 'age of accountability'...

What do you mean 'that's all changed', Mark?

Well, Christianity used to believe you threw babies who died into hell. For thousands of years we believed that, then someone was brave enough to suggest that was total codswallop. Eventually we changed what we believed and now, apparently, you only throw us into hell for what we do after we reach the 'age of accountability'. Babies are safe from you now.

Mark, 'the age of accountability' is a concept invented by Religion and you, not me. A clever way to adjust but still hold fast to your insistence that I am a God focused on sin and punishment and throwing the guilty into eternal torture.

Punishment, God, not torture!

Torture, Mark. Flames that burn but never go out, burning people who can never die, but must endure those flames forever. No human, no matter how twisted, has managed to invent a torture so heinous and yet you attribute the idea to me, your 'good good father'. Really??

Ok, torture. We believe you torture us in burning liquid if we don't say sorry for the things we decide to do ourselves after we reach 'the age of accountability'.

Yes, but until recently you Christians believed that I, your 'good, good father', would throw dead infants into hell if you didn't perform all sorts of rites and prayers to persuade me not to. What sort of father do you honestly think I am?? Good men would refuse to follow a God who has to be persuaded not to torture babies – is it any surprise to that the un-churched are so horrified and disgusted by your beliefs?

But God we don't believe that any more. Now you only throw us into hell...

Torture you Mark, say it, you need to face the grim reality of your beliefs.

Ok, torture. You only torture us for the stuff we do after we reach 'the age of accountability'.

Yes, so you said. And Mark how old does a person have to be before he reaches this 'age of accountability' that you and Religion have invented?

No one seems quite sure, God.

So you are constantly in danger of being thrown into a lake of fire and tortured there forever, by this 'good, good father' that you call me, for any action committed after a certain age, but you're not quite sure what that age is?

Well, ok that is kind of what it's like, God.

Dear dear dear... What has Religion persuaded you to believe, what sort of father do you honestly think I am? Has anyone ever questioned all this?

Not unless they wanted to be called a heretic God.

That's what they called me Mark, and Paul, and Elijah, and everyone else worth their salt.

Yes, but God, if we were to believe this stuff you're saying, it would change everything. The basic tenets of our faith are that we are born in sin, and that you by your mercy, took away our punishment on the cross.

So if you were going to be punished, who was going to be doing the punishing?

Well, you apparently, God?

Mark, honestly? What sort of father do you think I am?

I'm running out of steam here, God. Running out of argument. Not wanting to accept what you're saying because...

Because it would mean you needed to start again, Mark. Go back to the beginning, back to the garden when Religion first entered the picture and asked 'Did God really say'? You need to go right back there and ask me. That's a huge problem for most of Christianity, your leaders included, because most of you don't know how to hear me, not in full sentences and paragraphs like this.

The prospect of asking me to redefine your faith, re-explain what this whole Father, Son, Spirit and human story is about is terrifying, what if you got it wrong? You'd rather stick with what you believe.

The Pharisees found themselves in the same predicament Mark, and now here you all are at the same place they were. They had taken a relationship I started with the patriarchs and reduced it to a set of rules and regulations presided over by an angry God, and now you have done the same with the truths I taught the disciples.

The Pharisees decided it was safer to stick with Religion's lies than listen to me, and so they murdered me. And now you are all doing the same, murdering the truth so you can keep listening to Religion's lies about a father consumed with your behaviour and punishment. Have you ever met any other father so consumed with his children's behaviour as you say I am?

Well no, God.

What about punishment, have you ever met a father who would punish his children in the way you say I do, torture them, burn them alive, and keep them alive in the flames so the pain never goes away?

God, of course not. But you're supposed to be more just than we are. Christianity teaches that your 'justice' requires you...

To be merciful, Mark?

Well, yes.

Mark, mercy is required in the face of guilt, but we're not talking about guilt, this is about injustice, about people accused of breaking laws they're not even sure about and can probably not help breaking because of the state in which they were born. Neither mercy nor justice has anything to do with that, it's a mischievous lie.

And anyway Mark, what sort of father is constantly using words like guilt when talking about his children? Have you ever met another father who would punish his kids for any crime, no matter how minimal, by torturing them forever?

Well, no.

So Mark, that's why I'm asking...

What sort of father do you think I am?

[DavidFord]

Is this the one u are referring to:

WHAT SORT OF FATHER DO YOU THINK I AM??
12/1/2018

Yes.

[GodIsLove]

Thanks for sharing.

I'm sure many think this Guy is blasphemous or heretical or plain nuts, but I'm open minded.

[marie glen]

...."baggage" is a word I like to use about Christianity, "have we lost some of the gospel message? And picked up any baggage along the way?"

Namely, the old world superstition / king, priest collusion to control the people.. (just those 5 words so poorly translated to read hell.. and aion, aionios, etc to read 'for ever' and also, imo, the tendency to consign the bible to myth / metaphor  - which I never really realized before this very minute :Chinscratch: but I should have, as the 1st church fathers were not prone to it (altho of course there is metaphor in the bible. :laughing7: )

I agree the mis-understanding, we call "hell" really is - or should be - just what sort of "Father" do you think I am?! Logic/Logos!/Truth

I think we should all include in our prayers, listening.. but also realize there's no limit to error and ideas and spirits of error and promoting error, which comes to all of us - unless we are not seeking to serve God at all? -- that truth is the washing of the water of the word to dislodge from our minds any logs or specks of error we still have.. or acquire!? :mshock:

When we listen, when we read, it works it way through our own mind, our own filters, and we can know this is true of everyone.

It's very interesting to read other's thoughts and learnings, and to share! So awesome.. But I never can understand how - in the world - there's so much lauding of people, and following people.. with teachings..

But some of the best books I read early on.. like "God Calling" was like this link. It was two lady listeners and it was awesome reading. They likely however, were Et (somewhat) believers.. perhaps just had never questioned it, nor focused on it. I still consider Et believers and the Et churches to be brethren. Though we do these days, hear some strange stories about churches.. and I have no idea where the churches are at, but just know there are true believers very likely in all churches and denominations. I think even most "turn or burn" believers, especially lay believers, are sincere and truly believe they are serving God for anyone not coming to the faith before they die, it is thought to be a true unchangeable, forever tragedy.. So I imagine some can be very persistent.. which may help account for the rise of (sort of) militant atheism.. satan&co who having fingers in every pie and playing all sides and angles.. always of course, for division, and however far that can be taken, over and over throughout history... {Won't God ruling supreme and alone, be absolutely wonderful.. :cloud9: :cloud9: }

WHAT SORT OF FATHER DO YOU THINK I AM??

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!

[DavidFord]

I'm sure many think this Guy is blasphemous or heretical or plain nuts, but I'm open minded.

I think Holloway is fine.  I've read 2 of his conversations-with-God books, and 2 webpages of his blog posts, plus a little of his facebook material.

[CST]

Because it would mean you needed to start again, Mark. Go back to the beginning, back to the garden when Religion first entered the picture and asked 'Did God really say'? You need to go right back there and ask me. That's a huge problem for most of Christianity, your leaders included, because most of you don't know how to hear me, not in full sentences and paragraphs like this.

That part of the conversation is a bit alarming; dangerous or bold depending or your persuasion. Taking a line associated with the serpent's first deception and putting it in the mouth of God. Wow, what a risk!

[GodIsLove]

CST, yikes I must have skimmed over that.

[DavidFord]

Because it would mean you needed to start again, Mark. Go back to the beginning, back to the garden when Religion first entered the picture and asked 'Did God really say'? You need to go right back there and ask me. That's a huge problem for most of Christianity, your leaders included, because most of you don't know how to hear me, not in full sentences and paragraphs like this.

That part of the conversation is a bit alarming; dangerous or bold depending or your persuasion. Taking a line associated with the serpent's first deception and putting it in the mouth of God. Wow, what a risk!

Do you think Eve _shouldn't_ have asked God, 'God, did you really say _______?'
The Genesis account has God instructing Adam, but no mention is made of God instructing Eve directly about the tree; I bet she heard things 2nd-hand from Adam.  Also, God didn't say anything about touching the leaves—Adam and/or Eve added that to God's words to Adam.

Genesis 2 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+2&version=YLT
16 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'

Genesis 3 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=YLT
3 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,
3 and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

[GodIsLove]

Ooooohhhhh thanks I get it now...

When CST quoted it I thought it meant that we should question if God really said what he said to Adam.

But now I think it means what you said, Eve should have gone to ask God, to ask if he did say that, instead of believing the serpent, since she heard God's word secondhand from Adam.

It makes sense, that we should pray and ask God to show us the truth so we aren't deceived.

[CST]

Because it would mean you needed to start again, Mark. Go back to the beginning, back to the garden when Religion first entered the picture and asked 'Did God really say'? You need to go right back there and ask me. That's a huge problem for most of Christianity, your leaders included, because most of you don't know how to hear me, not in full sentences and paragraphs like this.

That part of the conversation is a bit alarming; dangerous or bold depending or your persuasion. Taking a line associated with the serpent's first deception and putting it in the mouth of God. Wow, what a risk!

Do you think Eve _shouldn't_ have asked God, 'God, did you really say _______?'
The Genesis account has God instructing Adam, but no mention is made of God instructing Eve directly about the tree; I bet she heard things 2nd-hand from Adam.  Also, God didn't say anything about touching the leaves—Adam and/or Eve added that to God's words to Adam.

Genesis 2 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+2&version=YLT
16 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'

Genesis 3 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=YLT
3 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,
3 and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

No, Eve didn't ask this is important in a few translations of the Bible (others phrase it differently) like the NIV the first words the serpent speaks when moving to deceive Eve are "Did God really say...". I just felt that putting those words in the mouth of God was incredibly audacious on behalf of the writer of this article.

I noticed also that Eve wasn't present when God gave Adam the instruction to leave the tree alone. It's also worth noting that according to the ESV the Hebrew word for 'you' in 3:1-5 is plural but it makes no such comment in 2:17. I'm not sure if that's correct use of Hebrew or an oversight on that part of the people writing the translation.

Ooooohhhhh thanks I get it now...

When CST quoted it I thought it meant that we should question if God really said what he said to Adam.

But now I think it means what you said, Eve should have gone to ask God, to ask if he did say that, instead of believing the serpent, since she heard God's word secondhand from Adam.

It makes sense, that we should pray and ask God to show us the truth so we aren't deceived.

No didn't mean that, the point was that that was what the serpent tried to get Eve to do which was why I felt it was audacious. Of course, if that plural 'you' is meaningful the answer is 'no' for Eve but 'yes' for Adam which may well have enabled the deception.

[DavidFord]

Genesis 2 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+2&version=YLT
16 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'
Genesis 3 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=YLT
3 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,
3 and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

No, Eve didn't ask this is important in a few translations of the Bible (others phrase it differently) like the NIV the first words the serpent speaks when moving to deceive Eve are "Did God really say...".

To me, "Is it true that God hath said" is basically the same thing as "Did God really say."

I just felt that putting those words in the mouth of God was incredibly audacious on behalf of the writer of this article.

You think Satan doesn't exist.  I can understand how you'd consider a quotation of God supposedly quoting Satan-- an entity you think doesn't exist-- "incredibly audacious."

The Bible has God quoting a doubting Sarah:
Genesis 18:11-15 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+18%3A11-15+&version=KJV
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

[CST]

Genesis 2 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+2&version=YLT
16 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'
Genesis 3 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=YLT
3 And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,
3 and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

No, Eve didn't ask this is important in a few translations of the Bible (others phrase it differently) like the NIV the first words the serpent speaks when moving to deceive Eve are "Did God really say...".

To me, "Is it true that God hath said" is basically the same thing as "Did God really say."

I just felt that putting those words in the mouth of God was incredibly audacious on behalf of the writer of this article.

You think Satan doesn't exist.  I can understand how you'd consider a quotation of God supposedly quoting Satan-- an entity you think doesn't exist-- "incredibly audacious."

The Bible has God quoting a doubting Sarah:
Genesis 18:11-15 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+18%3A11-15+&version=KJV
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

I think the conversation is fiction and the use of such term gives away that it's fiction. For some reason the inventor has decided to put words the Bible attributes to the serpent, and put them in the mouth of 'God' in order to attack the behaviour of the church. I see a strong possibility of that backfiring. Whether I think Satan exists or not doesn't change the spirit of the words.

Ah, you're quoting the Sarah joke, do you even know what that means?

[DavidFord]

I think the conversation is fiction and the use of such term gives away that it's fiction. For some reason the inventor has decided to put words the Bible attributes to the serpent, and put them in the mouth of 'God' in order to attack the behaviour of the church. I see a strong possibility of that backfiring. Whether I think Satan exists or not doesn't change the spirit of the words.
Ah, you're quoting the Sarah joke, do you even know what that means?

I don't know "the Sarah joke"-- what is it?
Do you think the evil spirit's remark here is fiction?:

Acts 19 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

[CST]

I think the conversation is fiction and the use of such term gives away that it's fiction. For some reason the inventor has decided to put words the Bible attributes to the serpent, and put them in the mouth of 'God' in order to attack the behaviour of the church. I see a strong possibility of that backfiring. Whether I think Satan exists or not doesn't change the spirit of the words.
Ah, you're quoting the Sarah joke, do you even know what that means?

I don't know "the Sarah joke"-- what is it?
Do you think the evil spirit's remark here is fiction?:

Acts 19 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

The Sarah joke is essentially that Sarah attempts to spy (eavesdrop) on God (who is omniscient) and then is embarrassed when He catches her at it.

Is the dialogue fiction? Before answering that question I'm like to know how the demon knows about Paul? If you cast out demons in Jesus's name that's the only name you need. The use of the name Paul suggests the doubt and insecurity of the exorcisor(?) which is probably the point here.

[DavidFord]

Is the dialogue fiction? Before answering that question I'm like to know how the demon knows about Paul? If you cast out demons in Jesus's name that's the only name you need. The use of the name Paul suggests the doubt and insecurity of the exorcisor(?) which is probably the point here.

"how the demon knows about Paul?"
I'd think through observation and/or 'the grapevine.'

Acts 19 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV
9.  .... So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10 This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.  11 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.  13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

Do you think the evil spirit's remark above is fiction?

[CST]

Is the dialogue fiction? Before answering that question I'm like to know how the demon knows about Paul? If you cast out demons in Jesus's name that's the only name you need. The use of the name Paul suggests the doubt and insecurity of the exorcisor(?) which is probably the point here.

"how the demon knows about Paul?"
I'd think through observation and/or 'the grapevine.'

Acts 19 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV
9.  .... So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10 This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.  11 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.  13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

Do you think the evil spirit's remark above is fiction?

No, no, you misunderstand. The speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul. Remember if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved. Do they know of Paul similarly?

[marie glen]

If the demons are fallen angels as believed, they pre-existed the universe, because there's a verse which says or implies the angels clapped their hands at the creation..  :Chinscratch: have to look that up..

I think most things of the bible are not very involved, but we make them that way..

The verse - is in Job 38

God Challenges Job

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[CST]

I think most things of the bible are not very involved, but we make them that way..

You're misunderstanding, the implication from Legion, if you believe in Legion which is hard because you have to get your head around the concept, is that the said demon recognizes Jesus in a very deep way from before it came to Earth and before the rebellion before anything. The demon will likely know things God doesn't see necessary to reveal to us at this stage. So does Paul's role in salvation equate to something equally big enough that a demon would know of him in a similar way?

I've removed your quote from Job although I'm not sure it means what you think it means. Certainly there's some dispute about when exactly God made the angels and lots of conflicting stories about that. Given that the passage you're quoting is entirely rhetorical I'm not sure how much historical information we should actually be able to glean from it.

[marie glen]

 The New Testament mentions Satan 36 times in 33 verses - I would assume reading them all would shed light :thumbsup: :gsmile: since that's what the Bible is said to do, the Logos - "the entrance of your Word gives light".

And the Book of Revelation tells of "that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world", being thrown down to the Earth together with his angels.

there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,

8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;

9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;

11 and they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life -- unto death;

12 because of this be glad, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; wo to those inhabiting the land and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast forth to the earth, he pursued the woman who did bring forth the male, (manchild/son of man?)

  :dontknow: I'll see if I can read some of your points again to see if I can understand them. :Peace2: :girlheart:


P.S - is this all thought to be inner? Is that what metaphor is? All within? It's all about me after all..? "The kingdom of God is within  you" probably should have been translated, "the kingdom of God is among you" ..'cause He was there..

[MusicLover123]

is this all thought to be inner? Is that what metaphor is? All within? It's all about me after all..? "The kingdom of God is within  you" probably should have been translated, "the kingdom of God is among you" ..'cause He was there..

That's great, I started a study today due to someone else's comment, so here is what I have so far:

"

Everyone waiting on a savior.. but the kingdom of God is within.

"


Well, of course the Kingdom is within. But it still awaits to be manifested, as the Sons of God await to be manifested.

Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male "sperm"); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.
Total KJV occurrences: 44

G4687
σπείρω
speirō
spi'-ro
Probably strengthened from G4685 (through the idea of extending); to scatter, that is, sow (literally or figuratively): - sow (-er), receive seed.
Total KJV occurrences: 53

G4685
σπάω
spaō
spah'-o
A primary verb; to draw: - draw (out).
Total KJV occurrences: 2

Mat 13:24  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field

Mar 4:14  The sower soweth the word. 

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 

YLT 1Jn 3:2  beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is

2Co 3:18  and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 

Col 3:4  when the Christ—our life—may be manifested, then also we with him shall be manifested in glory. 

Jas 1:23  because, if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, this one hath been like to a man viewing his natural face in a mirror, 
Jas 1:24  for he did view himself, and hath gone away, and immediately he did forget of what kind he was

G5590
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G5594

Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 

G616
ἀποκυέω
apokueō
Thayer Definition:
1) to bring forth
1a) from the womb
1b) give birth to
2) produce
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G575 and the base of G2949

You are either bringing forth sin and death when it is perfect, or Christ, when He perfects you."

[marie glen]

Amen, "the seed" is Christ and He is in us.. But I see the wholeness of the Kingdom coming with Jesus and not only within. And if the kingdom is within all.. it's not just within as if someday there shall be no without.. I cannot see the Kingdom as being only in our hearts.. To me that's crazy talk. It may not be in the whole world yet.. but I believe will be. "The World is passing away... but we look for a new heavens and a new Earth.." Also Rev 21:1-5 (ch 21 & 22)

I think most things of the bible are not very involved, but we make them that way..

You're misunderstanding, the implication from Legion, if you believe in Legion which is hard because you have to get your head around the concept, is that the said demon recognizes Jesus in a very deep way from before it came to Earth and before the rebellion before anything. The demon will likely know things God doesn't see necessary to reveal to us at this stage. So does Paul's role in salvation equate to something equally big enough that a demon would know of him in a similar way?

I've removed your quote from Job although I'm not sure it means what you think it means. Certainly there's some dispute about when exactly God made the angels and lots of conflicting stories about that. Given that the passage you're quoting is entirely rhetorical I'm not sure how much historical information we should actually be able to glean from it.

Here's a verse I came across:

Matthew 26:53
Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

G#3003 legión - Same word as the one in the man in the tombs account, properly: a division of the Roman army, numbering about 6,000 infantry with additional cavalry; hence: a very large number; a legion

But, you believe this is a legion of evil thoughts? I'm sure that is also true..

( He casts out the demons by the ruler of demons

[MusicLover123]

Amen, "the seed" is Christ and He is in us.. But I see the wholeness of the Kingdom coming with Jesus and not only within. And if the kingdom is within all.. it's not just within as if someday there shall be no without.. I cannot see the Kingdom as being only in our hearts.. To me that's crazy talk. It may not be in the whole world yet.. but I believe will be. "The World is passing away... but we look for a new heavens and a new Earth.." Also Rev 21:1-5 (ch 21 & 22)

I believe it is not only going to be within our hearts too, should have made that part clear.

[DavidFord]

No, no, you misunderstand. The speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul. Remember if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved. Do they know of Paul similarly?

Demons lie often; even if "the speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul," that doesn't necessarily mean that such "equity" actually existed.
"if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved"
References about demons:
knowing "about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth"? 
having "very involved" knowledge about Jesus?

[DavidFord]

Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male "sperm"); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.
Total KJV occurrences: 44

Semitic idiom: seed of _________ = descended from _________, literally or metaphorically

NT instances quoting Semites are less-impressive than narrative portions, e. g. Paul's use of the Semiticism in his letters to various churches.

1 Chronicles 16:13 (KJV)
O ye seed of Israel his servant,
ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
Job 5:25
Thou shalt know also that thy seed shall be great,
and thine offspring as the grass of the earth.
Job 21:8
Their seed is established in their sight with them,
and their offspring before their eyes.
Psalm 102:28
The children of thy servants shall continue,
and their seed shall be established before thee.
Psalm 105:6
O ye seed of Abraham his servant,
ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Isaiah 44:3
. . . . I will pour my spirit upon thy seed,
and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed,
he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Romans 9:29
And as Esaias said before,
Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
we had been as Sodoma,
and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law?
It was added because of transgressions,
till the seed should come to [about?] whom the promise was made;
and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

'SEED'/ AN OFFSPRING FOR A BROTHER

Matthew 22:24
Saying, Master, Moses said,
If a man die, having no children,
his brother shall marry his wife,
and raise up seed unto his brother.
Luke 20:28
Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us,
If any man's brother die, having a wife,
and he die without children,
that his brother should take his wife,
and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mark 12:19
Master, Moses wrote unto us,
If a man's brother die,
and leave his wife behind him,
and leave no children,
that his brother should take his wife,
and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mark 12:20
Now there were seven brethren:
and the first took a wife,
and dying left no seed.
Mark 12:21
And the second took her, and died,
neither left he any seed:
and the third likewise.
Mark 12:22
And the seven had her,
and left no seed:
last of all the woman died also.

Compare:

Genesis 38:8
And Judah said unto Onan,
Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her,
and raise up seed to thy brother.
Genesis 38:9
And Onan knew that the seed [offspring] should not be his;
and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife,
that he spilled it [his semen] on the ground,
lest that he should give seed to his brother.

ABRAHAM'S 'SEED'/ DESCENDANTS

Luke 1:55
As he spake to our fathers,
to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee
and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant,
to be a God unto thee,
and to thy seed after thee.
John 8:33
They answered him,
We be Abraham's seed,
and were never in bondage to any man:
how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:37
I know that ye are Abraham's seed;
but ye seek to kill me,
because my word hath no place in you.
Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets,
and of the covenant which God made with our fathers,
saying unto Abraham,
And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Acts 7:5
And he gave him none inheritance in it,
no, not so much as to set his foot on:
yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession,
and to his seed after him,
when as yet he had no child.
Deuteronomy 1:8
Behold, I have set the land before you:
go in and possess the land which
the Lord sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
to give unto them and to their seed after them.

Acts 7:6
And God spake on this wise, That
his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that
they should bring them into bondage,
and entreat them evil four hundred years.
Genesis 15:13
And he said unto Abram,
Know of a surety that
thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs,
and shall serve them;
and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world,
was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law,
but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;
to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;
not to that only which is of the law,
but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham;
who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope,
that he [Abraham] might become the father of many nations,
according to that which was spoken,
So shall thy seed be.
Romans 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,
are they all children: but,
In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh,
these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people?
God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite,
of the seed of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I.
Are they Israelites? so am I.
Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
He saith not, And to seeds, as of many;
but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's,
then are ye Abraham's seed,
and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 11:11
Through faith also Sara [Abraham's wife] herself received strength to conceive seed,
and was delivered of a child when she was past age,
because she judged him [God] faithful who had promised.
Genesis 17:19
And God said,
Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed;
and thou shalt call his name Isaac:
and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant,
and with his seed after him.
Hebrews 11:18
Of whom it was said, That
in Isaac shall thy [Abraham's] seed be called:

DAVID'S 'SEED'/ DESCENDANTS

John 7:42
Hath not the scripture said, That
Christ cometh of the seed of David,
and out of the town of Bethlehem,
where David was?
Acts 13:22
Of this man's [David's] seed hath God according to his promise
raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David
was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

1 Samuel 20:42
And Jonathan said to David,
Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn
both of us in the name of the Lord, saying,
The Lord be between me and thee,
and between my seed and thy seed for ever. . . . .
2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled,
and thou [David] shalt sleep with thy fathers,
I will set up thy seed after thee,
which shall proceed out of thy bowels,
and I will establish his kingdom.
2 Samuel 22:51
He is the tower of salvation for his king:
and sheweth mercy to his anointed,
unto David, and to his seed for evermore.

1 Kings 2:33
Their blood shall therefore return
upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever:
but upon David, and upon his seed,
and upon his house, and upon his throne,
shall there be peace for ever from the Lord.
1 Kings 11:39
And I will for this afflict the seed of David,
but not for ever.

Psalm 18:50
Great deliverance giveth he to his king;
and sheweth mercy to his anointed,
to David, and to his seed for evermore.

Jeremiah 33:22
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered,
neither the sand of the sea measured:
so will I multiply the seed of David my servant,
and the Levites that minister unto me.
Jeremiah 33:26
Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant,
so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers
over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:
for I will cause their captivity to return,
and have mercy on them.

'SEED' USED AS IN 'NATURE OF'
?: any parallels from the OT?

Hebrews 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels;
but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again,
not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible,
by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 John 3:9 Note also the chiastic structure.
Whosoever is born of God
doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.