2-way chat with God: good Father vs. neverending torture

[DavidFord]

The real purpose of suffering is to humble us. Do I know ultimately why? No, I see through the mirror darkly. The best thing I can do is to trust in Him, and know that He is in control, and knows what He is doing.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;
Rom 8:19  for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject—not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it —in hope,
Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Rom 8:22  for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Judgement teaches righteousness, it is used to correct someone, and not out of hatred. This false idea of God is why so many live in fear of God, and not truly loving Him.

Psalm 119:71
https://biblehub.com/psalms/119-71.htm
My suffering was good for me, for it taught me to pay attention to your decrees. (New Living Translation)
It was good for me to be afflicted so that I could learn Your statutes. (HCSB) 
It is good for me that I have been humbled that I may learn your commandments. (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

[DavidFord]

Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.
I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.
I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities.  ....I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

[GodIsLove]

Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.
I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.
I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities.  ....I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

I believe this as well. Some Christians do not.

[DavidFord]

If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

Humans are very different creatures than apes, monkeys, etc.  It's not the case that a population of apes transformed into a population of humans. 
Bacteria are living and dying regularly in my gut.  It seems to me that Adam and Eve also had gut bacteria inside them, and many bacteria died before The Fall.
Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death, in that their relationship with God was severely damaged.  After the Fall, if they'd managed to eat of the Tree of Life, they'd have avoided physical death.

Genesis 3 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

[DavidFord]

Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, were of course fulfilled in 70 a.d. with the question being, I assume, is does it (and other prophecy?) have parallel fulfillment, one being local and immediate, and one being broad and climactic or 'end time' as they say (as part of an 'ending' of the story?)

What are all the instances of "parallel fulfillment, one being local and immediate, and one being broad and climactic or 'end time'" that you're aware of?

[DavidFord]

I believe this as well. Some Christians do not.

Unfortunately, far too many Christians unnecessarily have a young-earth, young-universe position.  The geological and astronomical evidence that the earth and universe had a very long history is overwhelming.

_Creation and Evolution: Rethinking the Evidence from Science and the Bible_ by Alan Hayward
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556616791/

_Navigating Genesis: A Scientist's Journey through Genesis 1-11_ by Hugh Ross
https://www.amazon.com/Navigating-Genesis-Scientists-Journey-through/dp/1886653860/

[DavidFord]

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

When I read that passage I can't help thinking: 'And what of those who don't love God (and so, presumably, aren't called according to His purpose) which very obviously exist. I'm not sure we can claim all things work together for good for them, the Bible doesn't support that.

Perhaps those who presently don't love God will, at some future point, love God.  God calls all people to come to him; some come quickly, while others like the prodigal son have to 'hit rock bottom' before coming to God.

John 12:32 (KJV)  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=we+love+god&qs_version=KJV
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Rev 22:17 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+22&version=NIV
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" 
And let the one who hears say, "Come!" 
Let the one who is thirsty come;
and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

[CST]

Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.
I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.
I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities.  ....I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

Humans are very different creatures than apes, monkeys, etc.  It's not the case that a population of apes transformed into a population of humans. 
Bacteria are living and dying regularly in my gut.  It seems to me that Adam and Eve also had gut bacteria inside them, and many bacteria died before The Fall.
Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death, in that their relationship with God was severely damaged.  After the Fall, if they'd managed to eat of the Tree of Life, they'd have avoided physical death.

Genesis 3 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Wow, I think you've just written something I agree with, a number of people deny the concept of Spiritual Death because the phrase doesn't appear in the Bible but what it refers to, Man's alienation from God due to sin, is recorded numerous times in the Bible.

[GodIsLove]

Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.
I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.
I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities.  ....I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

Humans are very different creatures than apes, monkeys, etc.  It's not the case that a population of apes transformed into a population of humans. 
Bacteria are living and dying regularly in my gut.  It seems to me that Adam and Eve also had gut bacteria inside them, and many bacteria died before The Fall.
Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death, in that their relationship with God was severely damaged.  After the Fall, if they'd managed to eat of the Tree of Life, they'd have avoided physical death.

Genesis 3 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Wow, I think you've just written something I agree with, a number of people deny the concept of Spiritual Death because the phrase doesn't appear in the Bible but what it refers to, Man's alienation from God due to sin, is recorded numerous times in the Bible.

Yes spiritual death is my belief about that passage as well. I started a thread about it somewhat recently, and I supported the idea with verses elsewhere in the Bible.

Not only bacteria, but cells die within our bodies. If Adam and Eve ate plants then yes they had to have gut bacteria to digest them.

[DavidFord]

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

The universe is about 15,000,000,000 years old.

[GodIsLove]

In British English, a billion used to be equivalent to a million million (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000), while in American English it has always equated to a thousand million (i.e. 1,000,000,000). British English has now adopted the American figure, though, so that a billion equals a thousand million in both varieties of English.

So they are the same now it seems. I never heard that there was a difference.

[marie glen]

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

The universe is about 15,000,000,000 years old.

Then death came before sin?

[DavidFord]

Then death came before sin?

Before human sin, I'd say yes:  physical death of plants and animals preceded The Fall.  E.g., dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, while humans sinned much more recently.  satan and his fellow angelic rebels sinned before Adam sinned.

[CST]

In British English, a billion used to be equivalent to a million million (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000), while in American English it has always equated to a thousand million (i.e. 1,000,000,000). British English has now adopted the American figure, though, so that a billion equals a thousand million in both varieties of English.

So they are the same now it seems. I never heard that there was a difference.

Do you think that might be because the American billion more suitable for this figure. If the universe is not even a British billion years old there hardly seems to be much use for the number.

I think the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is about 15 billion years old.  Humans and Adam and Eve are primates and have human qualities, given that they're humans.

Is that a British billion or an American billion because there is genuinely a big difference?

The universe is about 15,000,000,000 years old.

Then death came before sin?

In a manner of speaking, but remember sin did produce estrangement from God of all nature because of our wickedness that death did follow sin. It shouldn't be surprising, night has followed day from the beginning (kind of) why should death be absent from the darkness?

[marie glen]

If humans evolved from primates.. that means death came before sin, which to me/imo, contradicts God's account and statements.. Of how sin brought death.. as Romans 5:12 says "just as sin entered into the world through one man."

[marie glen]

It also says, Genesis 1:27, He created "bara" man and woman in His image and likeness, not they gradually came to be in His image and likeness. And the word "bara" is the same as written in Genesis 1:1 in the beginning God created, shaped, formed the heavens and the Earth..

The 7 days may indeed be a pattern or shadow of seven 1,000 year periods, the 7th being the millennium.. There's also Hosea 6:2, which says "After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence." - Which some read (speculate) as Jesus, from His death, 27-33 CE, after 2 days (2000 years) He will revive/resurrect.. on the third day will raise up the rest..? :dontknow: but interesting..

[CST]

No, Glenda. It's a bit like this is 2018 but it's the 21st century: after two days and on the third day are identical.

[marie glen]

Oh okay thanks :laughing7: ..so after two days will raise them up.. Speculation, like I said, but I'm sure the verse and all verses mean something :gsmile:

[CST]

Yeas, it's a clear Old Testament prophecy to the circumstances of the resurrection of Jesus and how it connects to, like you say, how He will raise us up to live in His presence.

[DavidFord]

If humans evolved from primates.. that means death came before sin, which to me/imo, contradicts God's account and statements.. Of how sin brought death.. as Romans 5:12 says "just as sin entered into the world through one man."

It's not the case that "humans evolved from primates." 
I maintain that physical death e.g. of bacteria and dinosaurs occurred before The Fall; do you think that position "contradicts God's account and statements"?

[DavidFord]

Yeas, it's a clear Old Testament prophecy to the circumstances of the resurrection of Jesus and how it connects to, like you say, how He will raise us up to live in His presence.

Hosea 6:1-3 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea+6%3A1-3&version=HCSB
1 Come, let us return to the Lord.
For He has torn us,
and He will heal us;
He has wounded us,
and He will bind up our wounds.
2 He will revive us after two days,
and on the third day He will raise us up
so we can live in His presence.
3 Let us strive to know the Lord.
His appearance is as sure as the dawn.
He will come to us like the rain,
like the spring showers that water the land.

[CST]

If humans evolved from primates.. that means death came before sin, which to me/imo, contradicts God's account and statements.. Of how sin brought death.. as Romans 5:12 says "just as sin entered into the world through one man."

It's not the case that "humans evolved from primates." 

Yes, it is!

Yeas, it's a clear Old Testament prophecy to the circumstances of the resurrection of Jesus and how it connects to, like you say, how He will raise us up to live in His presence.

Hosea 6:1-3 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea+6%3A1-3&version=HCSB
1 Come, let us return to the Lord.
For He has torn us,
and He will heal us;
He has wounded us,
and He will bind up our wounds.
2 He will revive us after two days,
and on the third day He will raise us up
so we can live in His presence.
3 Let us strive to know the Lord.
His appearance is as sure as the dawn.
He will come to us like the rain,
like the spring showers that water the land.

That looks like a complete confirmation of my original statement to me.

[DavidFord]

It's not the case that "humans evolved from primates." 

Yes, it is!

What lines of evidence/argumentation lead you to conclude that "humans evolved from primates"?

[DavidFord]

Oct 25, 2018 entry at
https://facebook.com/thefreedomassignment/
Ok so what's 'enforced 'deception.

You saw it with Communism and the Nazis; like many churches they ruled by fear! It was punishable by death to disagree with those in power, and that's true of many churches.

What?? God can you please not! A lot of churches make you feel like you're very naughty if you don't follow their thinking, but they hardly 'punish you by death', it's more like a slap on the wrist with a wet glove', it's almost laughable.

I beg to differ Mark. You might find their criticism laughable, but for those who believe what they say, who hang on every word, and have bought into the lie that church leaders are somehow closer to me – for them the criticism and judgement of senior Christians is terrifying.

Why for goodness sake?

Because it's punishable by death.

Punishable by death??

Yes. "If you don't follow our teaching, or obey our rules you won't be such a good Christian...". The obvious implication is that when your Christianity slips (as a result of not following their teaching) you are in danger of hell. That's the ultimate manipulation.
Not following the teaching of senior Christians is seen as extremely dangerous and likely to make me cross. Which it doesn't! I'm not cross. I am smiling. I'm not angry with anyone. "For God so loved ("Highly esteemed") the world that he gave his son.'

[GodIsLove]

Re: evolution;

There's Godless evolution that is all random and by chance that even atheist scientists don't understand fully and defies rational thinking.

There's the belief held by many Christians including people I know and myself included that God guides it and it is part of how he creates.

This is an example of how God creates in an ongoing process: let us make mankind in our image is happening today in my opinion, we are gradually being made in His image.

So I don't believe in Godless evolution.

And micro evolution is something I think we all agree upon (species change over time) so it isn't a leap for me to think of macro evolution in the same way, however I only believe in it because I believe in God and I don't believe God and science to be in opposition, I think they are complimentary: God without science and science without God are both lacking IMO, because science explains the glory of God.

I don't find it any more amazing that God created all in 7 days versus a more gradual unfolding.

I don't find it to be contradictory to genesis. 

Just my opinions though, sharing if anyone passing through is helped by this approach.