the Amorites, Jebusites, Hittites, Perazites, etc of Canaan

[eaglesway]

It seems to me Paul does in Romans 2.

4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[CST]

Paul was a messenger to the Greek and Latin nations. I don't know of any messengers God sent to the Canaanite nations. I certainly can't currently name any.

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law"

This seems to be a disturbing quote when considered in this context. It seems to suggest that nations that don't have the law can be treated by God without any consideration or responsibility whatsoever. Which can't be true.

[eaglesway]

I think the nation of Israel was the messenger to the Canaanites, the Lampstand.

"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.'As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' Acts 17

Ps 19
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,


Ro 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup:

Paul was a messenger to the Greek and Latin nations. I don't know of any messengers God sent to the Canaanite nations. I certainly can't currently name any.

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law"

This seems to be a disturbing quote when considered in this context. It seems to suggest that nations that don't have the law can be treated by God without any consideration or responsibility whatsoever. Which can't be true.

:Chinscratch: I don't think in terms of God doing this and that to folks and nations.. though to barbaric folks, I think this is the tone.. and necessary, but I think of it in terms of God allowing what man does to run its course. Surely that's punishment enough! :eek:

And then.... all are resurrected. Some immediately "to life" and "some to a resurrection of judgment/decision"/discernment? How is God to reveal to "all in heaven & earth" the utter horror of the wrong way except by each and every rational, able to think and reason, creature coming face to face with the full understanding of just what is the horrible depths of darkness the wrong way leads to?
:Peace2: p.s., the world's "life is a rainbow" is nothing more than delusion.. man is being allowed to be 'on the throne' and life is not yet a rainbow..

[CST]

I think the nation of Israel was the messenger to the Canaanites, the Lampstand.

What by destroying them? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.

:thumbsup:

Paul was a messenger to the Greek and Latin nations. I don't know of any messengers God sent to the Canaanite nations. I certainly can't currently name any.

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law"

This seems to be a disturbing quote when considered in this context. It seems to suggest that nations that don't have the law can be treated by God without any consideration or responsibility whatsoever. Which can't be true.

:Chinscratch: I don't think in terms of God doing this and that to folks and nations.. though to barbaric folks, I think this is the tone.. and necessary, but I think of it in terms of God allowing what man does to run its course. Surely that's punishment enough! :eek:

And then.... all are resurrected. Some immediately "to life" and "some to a resurrection of judgment/decision"/discernment? How is God to reveal to "all in heaven & earth" the utter horror of the wrong way except by each and every rational, able to think and reason, creature coming face to face with the full understanding of just what is the horrible depths of darkness the wrong way leads to?
:Peace2: p.s., the world's "life is a rainbow" is nothing more than delusion.. man is being allowed to be 'on the throne' and life is not yet a rainbow..

I'm sure there are poetic ways life could be presented as a rainbow because that's how poetry works. Other than that the Bible suggests that is not punishment enough or God would leave well alone and there would be no revelation.

[marie glen]

I'm sure there are poetic ways life could be presented as a rainbow because that's how poetry works. Other than that the Bible suggests that is not punishment enough or God would leave well alone and there would be no revelation.

If He left well enough alone, wouldn't we all simply die and that would be it? "The wages of sin" being "death"? This is (part of) what I believe is the stark horror and reality of what death really is. That one be gone.. for ever. Gone.. no longer in existence.

To me the idea of inherent immortality of an unsaved soul/psyche, contradicts God's Word(s). After all, didn't God say after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit (of the forbidden way) they were barred from the tree of life, lest they live forever? (In the wretched state of the carnal, self-first, character, which is, in essence, a bottomless pit of possibility, which history has actually, already proven.)

[sheila]

 :2c: it is/was Father's will that man not live eternally in his evil/good  mix state[thank God!!!]but that the sin be taken away byJesus

and man live eternally in perfection.. in both God and Jesus image.YOU must be perfect!

    in His mercy He even cut the time we have to spend in this state dealing with evil.

[CST]

If He left well enough alone, wouldn't we all simply die and that would be it? "The wages of sin" being "death"? This is (part of) what I believe is the stark horror and reality of what death really is. That one be gone.. for ever. Gone.. no longer in existence.

To me the idea of inherent immortality of an unsaved soul/psyche, contradicts God's Word(s). After all, didn't God say after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit (of the forbidden way) they were barred from the tree of life, lest they live forever? (In the wretched state of the carnal, self-first, character, which is, in essence, a bottomless pit of possibility, which history has actually, already proven.)

If He withdrew His life-giving and sustaining spirit, yes we'd die, He did this before when He sent the floor and to be precise He does it on a smaller scale when any one dies anywhere. But if He maintain His spirit but otherwise wasn't involved; didn't reveal the law didn't intervene in human actions didn't slay certain wicked people, all of which we believe His does as a fundamental aspect of His relationship with the world, then I'm not sure how long we'd last, the most wicked people would probably destroy the less wicked ones and then after that... goodness knows. I agree with you that evil is ultimately self-defeating and, if you believe in it Satan's kingdom will ultimately fall. But also if you believe in it, Satan's kingdom is utterly evil and, in some sense or another, it persists yet. So perhaps being wholly evil isn't enough to destroy any kingdom. Mind you, I'm not sure how long it would last if it didn't have this kingdom to wage war on.

[marie glen]

This is getting too frustrating for me. I think I'd like to vent a little bit, and probably doesn't even fit in this conversation. People cannot understand me. A literal interpretation (along with spiritual) is seen, at best, to be inferior. But I have a driving urge to condense and summarize and hand out/share.

How can I get people to hear what I'm trying to say? That it's all so supremely simple. And could be so easily passed on, making u.r. disciples in all nations.. especially in this day of the world wide web. But a literal big picture seems to be frowned upon.. I am lost in the we all have our view and that's what gets talked about. But isn't there something His Word is actually saying? A clear and cohesive message.. Is it really all about what we think it says? I guess I need a break. I'll just pray the whole gospel doesn't get swallowed up in a miasma of human thought that it's all metaphor, all only spiritual, and individual, and there is no collective.. it's all floaty and gauzy and who cares if anyone can come into the room and hear everyone talking in incomprehensible languages? I mean all saying something different. I understand there can be differences concerning the lof because it's not obvious. But some things, surely, are obvious and even :eek: literal.

It's funny how with the body (individual) it's the earthly first, and then the spiritual one. But in our thoughts, with God's Word, it's the spiritual.. and no earthly. But I'm an earthly or that is down to earth kind of gal. I think God's creation is supremely glorious.. not just some rag we're all being strained through.

Well, I apologize. I'm very willing to compromise with the idea there is lots of metaphor, but the idea that there is no literal, well, that, to me, is just insanity. Isn't it kind of like the idea that everything is relative..?

Sorry, just ignore me :doh: :faint: This has only vaguely applied to whether or not there is a literal adversary as portrayed in the Bible as a he, for instance, or as roaming the earth, acting like a roaring lion, seeking to devour.

Revelation 12 talks about the dragon trying to devour the manchild Israel birthed - Son of man, and coincidentally there is that account of Herod the Great killing the young boy children of Bethlehem in an attempt to kill the Christ he had heard about. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12%3A1-15&version=NASB

   :Peace2: ( :Chinscratch: maybe i'm thinking but, too much, rather than "and".)

[GodIsLove]

 :friendstu:

Each in his order Glenda!

All will be revealed.

Scales will fall from eyes.

Whatever differences in interpretation we have here are, IMO, are just because we are al seeing thru the glass darkly. Most importantly, we all believe  in the victorious gospel!

I'm sorry you are frustrated. I don't think any of your views are inferior. I love your example of the tree of possibilities. I love when you remind us that without God we are in death. That God is life itself. That it's all a learning lesson. That we won't be sitting on clouds with harps but actually DOING things.  What you contribute here isn't lost in a sea of opinion, it to me is a part of the truth that we all have parts of as well, with the fullness being revealed later.

Love ya!

[lastpost]

Yes...A person has their view of truth because truth is of Love – and that person likes to pass it on if they can because that's the Nature of Love - to give of Itself over and over - and it's disappointing when others don't seem to take that love. Don't worry Marie Glen, it's a Christ attribute, the One who thirsted for humanity.

[MusicLover123]

One thing I don't want is just a "true for you" mentality, as that stinks of relativism. Is the interpretation someone has actually true, that is actually going to be fulfilled in some way? Or is it just true only for that person?

It is great if different people are given different aspects of a verse. But, if 2 of them are totally contradictory to each other, obviously only one is right.

[lastpost]

I do know what you mean. I believe that it's not possible for any one person to understand much of Truth in its entirety, but if one person knows nothing of Love then even what they do know is worth nothing at all. As for me, without a doubt I would rather be wrong and loving than right and devoid of compassion. To me, just an inner picture of Jesus Christ or even His Name alone, is worth more than a thousand verses that cause rancour and enmity or bring misery to another, as has been witnessed in the long history of Biblical theology. Although this means that I'm probably in the wrong place for that, but that's just my opinion.

[GodIsLove]

1 Corinthians 13:13

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

[GodIsLove]

Also, MG, if you have these things that you want to share, I'd be interested in reading them in a new thread.

[jugghead]

One thing I don't want is just a "true for you" mentality, as that stinks of relativism. Is the interpretation someone has actually true, that is actually going to be fulfilled in some way? Or is it just true only for that person?

It is great if different people are given different aspects of a verse. But, if 2 of them are totally contradictory to each other, obviously only one is right.

Or both are wrong

In what I have come to understand, what may seem as a contradiction to us could very well line up perfectly with God in how He interprets it .....

we see dimly ..... therefore contradictions are made known, some may be resolved while we are still in this body of flesh, others will not be resolved until after we have left it ..... either way God resolves them

and to take it a step further, both could be right .... just seeing them from a different perspective, what I mean by that is, if two people are on opposite sides of a door, to one the doorknob is on the right, to the other the doorknob is on the left .... what can seem like a contradiction to each other is not a contradiction when the same thing is seen AS the same thing from both perspectives

a simple truth ..... but it has depth that can go beyond our capabilities  :2c:

[GodIsLove]

One thing I don't want is just a "true for you" mentality, as that stinks of relativism. Is the interpretation someone has actually true, that is actually going to be fulfilled in some way? Or is it just true only for that person?

It is great if different people are given different aspects of a verse. But, if 2 of them are totally contradictory to each other, obviously only one is right.

Or both are wrong

In what I have come to understand, what may seem as a contradiction to us could very well line up perfectly with God in how He interprets it .....

we see dimly ..... therefore contradictions are made known, some may be resolved while we are still in this body of flesh, others will not be resolved until after we have left it ..... either way God resolves them

and to take it a step further, both could be right .... just seeing them from a different perspective, what I mean by that is, if two people are on opposite sides of a door, to one the doorknob is on the right, to the other the doorknob is on the left .... what can seem like a contradiction to each other is not a contradiction when the same thing is seen AS the same thing from both perspectives

a simple truth ..... but it has depth that can go beyond our capabilities  :2c:

Thanks Jugghead, you put into words perfectly what I have been on the cusp of thinking.

[CST]

This is getting too frustrating for me. I think I'd like to vent a little bit, and probably doesn't even fit in this conversation. People cannot understand me. A literal interpretation (along with spiritual) is seen, at best, to be inferior. But I have a driving urge to condense and summarize and hand out/share.

How can I get people to hear what I'm trying to say? That it's all so supremely simple. And could be so easily passed on, making u.r. disciples in all nations.. especially in this day of the world wide web. But a literal big picture seems to be frowned upon.. I am lost in the we all have our view and that's what gets talked about. But isn't there something His Word is actually saying? A clear and cohesive message.. Is it really all about what we think it says? I guess I need a break. I'll just pray the whole gospel doesn't get swallowed up in a miasma of human thought that it's all metaphor, all only spiritual, and individual, and there is no collective.. it's all floaty and gauzy and who cares if anyone can come into the room and hear everyone talking in incomprehensible languages? I mean all saying something different. I understand there can be differences concerning the lof because it's not obvious. But some things, surely, are obvious and even :eek: literal.

It's funny how with the body (individual) it's the earthly first, and then the spiritual one. But in our thoughts, with God's Word, it's the spiritual.. and no earthly. But I'm an earthly or that is down to earth kind of gal. I think God's creation is supremely glorious.. not just some rag we're all being strained through.

Well, I apologize. I'm very willing to compromise with the idea there is lots of metaphor, but the idea that there is no literal, well, that, to me, is just insanity. Isn't it kind of like the idea that everything is relative..?

Sorry, just ignore me :doh: :faint: This has only vaguely applied to whether or not there is a literal adversary as portrayed in the Bible as a he, for instance, or as roaming the earth, acting like a roaring lion, seeking to devour.

Revelation 12 talks about the dragon trying to devour the manchild Israel birthed - Son of man, and coincidentally there is that account of Herod the Great killing the young boy children of Bethlehem in an attempt to kill the Christ he had heard about. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12%3A1-15&version=NASB

   :Peace2: ( :Chinscratch: maybe i'm thinking but, too much, rather than "and".)

Sorry for frustrating you Glenda, I don't think you need to be. I'm waffling a bit as I am speaking a lot of my thoughts before I've reached conclusions. That can confuse and frustrate people because they want to find conclusions and there aren't any there.

I'm not entirely sure the big picture is frowned upon though, it's much more likely it's so big no one can see it. A bit that that model of a group of blind people holding different parts of an elephant. Also in this case it might be possible to see the picture but if you're up close you can only see parts of it, if you're further away you can see all of it but it's really blurry.

[marie glen]

Thanks CST.. "His mercies are new every morning.." - next day I felt much better, lol..

[CST]

:) Thanks, Glenda.

[DavidFord]

Ah...but they did repent on a number of occasions. Under Jehoshaphat, under Hezekiah, under Josiah, just to name a few off the top of my head. And Mannaseh, one of the all-time wickedest kings repented and God restored him to the throne and to the land after he had been chained in the court of a heathen king for his evil. Hosea was the prophet to Israel in his day and he prophesied both God's love for them and the ultimate fulfillment of all his covenant to faithless Israel, not because of Israel's character, but because of His character, which is based in mercy- so that all chastisement ends in repentance and mercy and restoration.

Is there a chastisement for anyone in the afterlife?  And if so, of what does that chastisement consist?  (receiving the unloving treatment that one dished out to others while living the physical life?)  And who is that chastisement meted out to?
Is every person that has lived and will live a son/daughter of God?

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=son+chastise&qs_version=YLT%3BKJV%3BDLNT
Deuteronomy 8:5 (YLT)  ....as a man chastiseth his son Jehovah thy God is chastising thee,
Proverbs 3:11 (YLT)  Chastisement of Jehovah, my son, despise not, And be not vexed with His reproof,
Proverbs 13:24 (YLT)  Whoso is sparing his rod is hating his son, And whoso is loving him hath hastened him chastisement.
Proverbs 19:18 (YLT) Chastise thy son, for there is hope....
Proverbs 29:17 (YLT)  Chastise thy son, and he giveth thee comfort, Yea, he giveth delights to thy soul.
Hebrews 12:8 (KJV) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

[MusicLover123]

Here's another couple witnesses for chastisement, but it comes together when the verses do, and with some Revelation  :winkgrin:

Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

G1194
δέρω
derō
der'-o
A primary verb; properly to flay, that is, (by implication) to scourge, or (by analogy) to thrash: - beat, smite.
Total KJV occurrences: 15

Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

H2250
חֲבֻרָה    חַבֻּרָה    חַבּוּרָה
chabbûrâh    chabbûrâh    chăbûrâh
(1,2) khab-boo-raw', (3) khab-oo-raw'
From H2266; properly bound (with stripes), that is, a weal (or black and blue mark itself): - blueness, bruise, hurt, stripe, wound.
Total KJV occurrences: 7

H2266
חָבַר
châbar
khaw-bar'
A primitive root; to join (literally or figuratively); specifically (by means of spells) to fascinate: - charm (-er), be compact, couple (together), have fellowship with, heap up, join (self, together), league.
Total KJV occurrences: 29

Whether or not this is literal stripes(beating), I do not know. But, we are healed by His stripes.

[DavidFord]

without a doubt I would rather be wrong and loving than right and devoid of compassion

One can, without any compassion, 'win' an argument and clearly display one's rightness, and in the process alienate the other.  One guy was wowed by a guest apologist speaker on campus who crushed every objection presented to Christianity (and humiliated one questioner in the process), only to, as the crowd was dispersing, overhear a girl say, 'I don't care if he's right-- he's still a jerk.'  That overheard remark almost got the guy totally disillusioned with apologetics.
People are fragile.

[DavidFord]

Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.   ....
Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.  ....
Whether or not this is literal stripes(beating), I do not know. But, we are healed by His stripes.

James 3:1 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James%203:1
Not many should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive a stricter judgment,

[MusicLover123]

without a doubt I would rather be wrong and loving than right and devoid of compassion

One can, without any compassion, 'win' an argument and clearly display one's rightness, and in the process alienate the other.  One guy was wowed by a guest apologist speaker on campus who crushed every objection presented to Christianity (and humiliated one questioner in the process), only to, as the crowd was dispersing, overhear a girl say, 'I don't care if he's right-- he's still a jerk.'  That overheard remark almost got the guy totally disillusioned with apologetics.
People are fragile.

I could quote the whole 1 Corinthians 13 here, but I'll only leave 7 verses  :banana:

1Co 13:1  If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling; 
1Co 13:2  and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing; 
1Co 13:3  and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing. 
1Co 13:4  The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up, 
1Co 13:5  doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil, 
1Co 13:6  rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth; 
1Co 13:7  all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.