Tentmaker Forum

It's my belief God has done all things perfectly, and I feel pretty confident most here, if not all, would agree with that. We know that with the great flood/deluge, God started all over again when it comes to man. Then he said he would not do that again, and set the bow in the clouds.

At the building of Babble Tower, he said to the Son, let us confuse their languages, for look nothing will be beyond them. (What utter havoc could they accomplish?)

Then much later, in Deuteronomy chapter 7:1-5, our Father God who is love (life & perfection?) ordered Israel to wipe out seven nations of Canaan. Now if he wanted them gone - they were human/child sacrificers - why wouldn't he just do it himself? For one thing I think he is very theatrical - in getting his point across / Logos. But I find myself thinking he has somewhat of a 'hands off' thinking. Now why should this be? Or do you think that's even true? That he really, besides the redemption, after the fall/disobedience he's really only intervened somewhat minimally.. Yes he rises and sets nations and borders.. But is he involved "directly" in all things? In his wisdom, are the wills or choices of people involved in this flow of life?

Just some pondering on his word..

Also, what might the world be like now and in history if the 7 Canaan nation's had been left alone? (Also, Israel didn't actually complete the assignment/mission. [War is such a horror, yet God has allowed it to exist.. I have to think it's for a perfect reason. :gsmile: ]

https://www.knowingthebible.net/the-extermination-of-the-canaanites

This is a good article about Canaan..

I'm not sure "minimal" is a good word.. but almost..

...We can't forget that even though the pre-flood world, Sodom, Gomorrah, and those Canaanite nation's suffered (fiery?) Judgment/punishment, all who have ever lived will be resurrected to life.. We know this because of all the "all" verses.. "savior of all".. Jesus "will draw all" .."all knees will bend, all tongues confess" .. "all in all"..

Which very much shows His wonderful attribute of mercy.. Especially can appreciate after reading the article about the Canaan nation’s.. Not for the faint of heart..

Hmm, is it me or is this starting to pray on your mind of late? This is, at least, the second time you've mentioned this recently; God's annihilation of the Canaanites. My understanding is that is we had a better understanding of the Hebrew behind the texts we'd better understand God's justification for doing this.

I have copies of The Bible With Sources Revealed and Commentary On The Torah by Richard Elliott Friedman. These works include his own translation of the Torah and commentaries on them, he is Jewish so he brings a Jewish and Hebrew perspective to the translation and commentary. In one of the commentaries he says that in the flood narrative, there is a relationship between how man is corrupting the planet and God's decision to corrupt (ie destroy) man although I can't currently see it myself.

God wanted Israel to have the land for His own purposes. They had to take it. Just killing the tribes that were there before them would have left the land untended and probably had their neighbours charging in to take it.

I don't know...

According to things I've read about human sacrifice:

It was a part of many societies and took place in most regions around the world. These include the South Pacific, ancient Japan, early Southeast Asian societies, ancient Europe, certain Native American cultures, in Mesoamerica, and among the great civilizations of the ancient world. Babylon, Egypt, China, Greece, and even the precursor to the Romans, all took part in ritualized killings. In ancient Egypt and China, for instance, slaves were often buried alive, along with the body of their sovereign...

So God intervening because these nations were really "bad" doesn't make sense to me because so many societies were also engaging in such acts.

I would caution us as Christians to try to rationalize some of the less desireable aspects of the OT.

I am of the mind of progressive revelation, in that what God revealed in the OT was to a very primitive people who were themselves constantly straying. As humans change over time with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, different  and new things are revealed that supersede the old things that were given to a particular people in a particular time and place. Jesus explicitly says to love enemies, pray for them, and turn the other cheek. What happened in the OT, other than how it points to Jesus, IMO is ireelevant to today and I don't believe we can really wrap our brains around it because we are spiritually more evolved and because we aren't in that culture, don't speak the language, are thousands of years later, etc.

Jer 10:2  Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 

Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 
Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 
Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 
Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 
Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 

JM-NT Rom 9:21  Or does not the Potter hold authority (have a right) pertaining to clay, forth from out of the same kneaded mixture to make the one a container (a vessel; an instrument; a utensil) into honor (value), yet the other into an unhonored one (one without value; one deprived of privileges)?

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

1Co 10:11  These things happened to them to serve as an example, and they were written down as a warning for us in whom the culmination of the ages has been attained. 

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Quote from: GodIsLove on August 17, 2018, 03:46:09 PM
I would caution us as Christians to try to rationalize some of the less desireable aspects of the OT.

I am of the mind of progressive revelation, in that what God revealed in the OT was to a very primitive people who were themselves constantly straying.

Well, they were not just carnal, but they did not receive the promises!

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 

Heb 8:5  Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 

Col 1:26  the secret that hath been hid from the ages and from the generations, but now was manifested to his saints, 
Col 1:27  to whom God did will to make known what is the riches of the glory of this secret among the nations—which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory

You could also call progressive revelation what new things He reveals to us in our Spirit, through His Spirit.

Personally, I gain most by taking a spiritual perspective of certain Old Testament records, for instance...

In the beginning, the Lord God, the generous Giver, created - out of Himself - His cherished children, His treasured possession, who lived in the Land of Purity, even Eden. If His children are disobedient to His guidance which would keep them holy and pure, and instead seek other gods of the lesser self, then they shall immediately lose their spiritual purity and holy innocence, and they will be driven from the Land of Purity – and, alas, so it was.

The generous Giver was disobeyed.
The age of the reign of the Almighty Ruler must commence.
A spiritual counterpart to Deuteronomy 7:1-6 must take place in all of God's children.

The Land, thought out by the Lord God of all - the Promised Land - must be occupied by His treasured possession – His once holy children. It must be All-inAll. And to enter this Land His children must eliminate, through the Grace of God, all that which belongs to the lesser self – the evil-causing gods of the false world.

The children of God must break down the altars of spiritual pride, arrogance, elitism and conceit; they must smash the stones of greed and the desire to take for self while others suffer; they must cut down the poles of the desire for the adulation from the idle crowd and the ambition to laud it over others; and they must burn the idols of the desire for power and to control the lives of others.

The lesser gods must be defeated and totally destroyed, there must be no treaty with them, no mercy or relationships can exist with them, for they turn His children away from Him and make further descent into distorted evil inevitable; His children cannot serve God and mammon, they cannot serve other gods, or else they are subject to the burning consequences of violating God's laws of love and protection.

The holy children of God must not commune with the idols which are outside of Him, tempting idols that belong to the shadow world of the lesser self, those idols which inhibit them from entering His Purity, prevent them from entering the Promised Land.

This then is a universally applicable spiritual perspective for each and every one of God's children, and not confined to a religionist's perspective.

Peace

This is all prophetic really as everything in the Old Testament is.

Always look at the storyline and how it overlaps the New Covenant.

For example, you see that there were two people sent to witness to the Pharaoh to let the Israelites go.  God used 10 plagues to cause Pharaoh to let them go. Then they leave and are in the wilderness for 40 years where they are tried.  Then once they enter the promised land (headed by Joshua), they now have 7 countries to destroy and after they are 10 years in the promise land and destroy all the enemies round about - they have safety and therefore experience the Jubilee 50 years after leaving Egypt.

This is all pointing to the same under the New Covenant.  Follow the numbers. You will see the references in the book of Revelation.

Hi! My intent on pondering this and seeking to put into words, is because here on the web, it's the question most asked and the accusation most made against God. I feel I have a good understanding about it. Part of it concerning, amen, very barbaric, fallen backward people. Amazing isn't it that all parts of the earth have taken part in human sacrifice.  :Chinscratch: ..you'd think that would be a clue in the 'defense' of God Most High, why he has intervened with (fiery?) Judgment, including the flood, two or three times.. And justification in his demonstrating his displeasure in it. We'd have to think deep displeasure. And if some were left in the land they could contaminate israel, which they did, and ps106? 116? sounds like it was the 'last straw' as far as Yahweh, Most High our Father was concerned.

:Chinscratch: It's very true my message on this can't leave out how this depravity of human sacrifice sprang up everywhere.

I know that he does not need our defense!  :laughing7: But people read the online debates.. one or two I hope.. And when the accusation is made, it's always told as god the bully slaughtering folks in the Old Testament for no good reason.

Amazing that darkness so flourishes.. To make a spot for Messiah to be born.. God bless all those folks who followed Jesus around in crowds, running out of the town.. around the lake.. The word that gives light/life ..is the light of men.. What I'm looking for is two or three sentences, short n sweet (..somewhere I have bible prophecy summarized in a short paragraph.. i wonder where that is..)

Thank you CST and GIL.. :thumbsup:

I'm very much enjoying reading this thread..

Thanks ML for the great verses.. im going to read them again..

It's a work day here tho.. been putting off making breakfast as it is.. lol..

Ame, Lastpost, there is the microcosm, self (in which all false high towers and castles in the air must fall, since we tend to be rather dull of seeing and hearing, this often, especially when collective/macrocosm, as we tend so easily to mobs and mob mentality, is rather a fiery crash n burning ( as the saying goes). This learning of good and evil (life/nonlife?) it seems, is very experiential. It's not like simply telling us something cannot work, would be understood and needed, as it didn't work that way with Adam (and Eve) and perhaps not with that ancient (red) dragon&co.

I agree Trettep :iagree: it's all prophetic and shadow/example of.. After all, even as early on as Eden, when Adam and Eve disobeyed (disobeyed life) they were then barred from the tree of life lest they live forever.. on and on in an imperfect and flawed state.. We see the fruits of imperfection now.. how much worse could it be among beings which live forever, or have inherent  immortality. :eek:

Quote from: marie glen on August 18, 2018, 06:52:08 PM...
I agree Trettep :iagree: it's all prophetic and shadow/example of.. After all, even as early on as Eden, when Adam and Eve disobeyed (disobeyed life) they were then barred from the tree of life lest they live forever.. on and on in an imperfect and flawed state.. We see the fruits of imperfection now.. how much worse could it be among beings which live forever, or have inherent  immortality. :eek:

Yes, we don't get back in the Garden of Eden unless we get slain by that Sword (Word of God).

All the followers of the beast will be slain with it as well:

Rev 19:21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. 

Quote from: marie glen on August 16, 2018, 06:36:18 PM
It's my belief God has done all things perfectly, and I feel pretty confident most here, if not all, would agree with that. We know that with the great flood/deluge, God started all over again when it comes to man. Then he said he would not do that again, and set the bow in the clouds.

At the building of Babble Tower, he said to the Son, let us confuse their languages, for look nothing will be beyond them. (What utter havoc could they accomplish?)

Then much later, in Deuteronomy chapter 7:1-5, our Father God who is love (life & perfection?) ordered Israel to wipe out seven nations of Canaan. Now if he wanted them gone - they were human/child sacrificers - why wouldn't he just do it himself? For one thing I think he is very theatrical - in getting his point across / Logos. But I find myself thinking he has somewhat of a 'hands off' thinking. Now why should this be? Or do you think that's even true? That he really, besides the redemption, after the fall/disobedience he's really only intervened somewhat minimally.. Yes he rises and sets nations and borders.. But is he involved "directly" in all things? In his wisdom, are the wills or choices of people involved in this flow of life?

Just some pondering on his word..

Also, what might the world be like now and in history if the 7 Canaan nation's had been left alone? (Also, Israel didn't actually complete the assignment/mission. [War is such a horror, yet God has allowed it to exist.. I have to think it's for a perfect reason. :gsmile: ]

You know something MG, I love it when you bring up things that make me think. I read this the day you posted it and have been thinking about it ever since. When different examples are brought up, I always try to find the common denominator. And what I found in all three (and the fourth [war]), there is one thing that is common to every one, that being "making a name".

In the first example of the flood, man had made a name for himself and that name was "wickedness", in other words "see who we are" therefore God made a name for Himself by the destruction of the wicked in the world. (which is a foreshadowing of the destruction of the wickedness in men)

In the second example ... in which I found the key ... man was trying to make a name for himself ... "and let us make us a name" and what I saw in that one, was the name of "pride" ..... in other words "see what we can accomplish".

In the third one, the Canaanites had possession of the promised land, in the understanding of: "see what we accomplished"

then take the three examples and put them in order
1. "see who we are" ..... a name called "wicked"
2. "see what we we can accomplish" ..... a name called "pride"
3. "see what we have accomplished" ..... a name called "strength" ..... strength in what they possess

But all have left out what God is able to accomplish:
1. the destruction of "wickedness" in us
2. the destruction of "pride" in us
3. the destruction of "strength" in us

and all three examples of "flesh" .... the flesh possesses wickedness, the flesh possesses pride, but the flesh does not possess "the Promised land" ..... it does not possess "the promise" ..... it belongs to the Spirit, of which our spirit testifies with His Spirit "THAT IT IS HIS"

It is all about making a name for God, of which that name is "LOVE"

and the fourth [war] ..... for me, war is just an extreme example of two kids fighting over what was given to both ..... and one does not want to share it with the other ..... man "in the flesh" always has to try to prove he is stronger than another, whether it be two people or two nations ..... never coming to the understanding that God is stronger than man and that all of it will be brought to an end

BY HIM ..... THROUGH HIM ..... and FOR HIM

so that man "will be", "can be" and "is being" reconciled to God

Man possesses a dry promise "the promise of the destruction of wicked men", which is how the Pharisees saw the Messiah to be
Whereas
God possesses the wet promise (the Spirit promise) "the destruction of the wickedness in men", which is how we see the Messiah to be

For we will see Him as He is, not who we may think Him to be

my  :2c:

Quote from: marie glen on August 18, 2018, 04:38:16 PM
Hi! My intent on pondering this and seeking to put into words, is because here on the web, it's the question most asked and the accusation most made against God. I feel I have a good understanding about it. Part of it concerning, amen, very barbaric, fallen backward people. Amazing isn't it that all parts of the earth have taken part in human sacrifice.  :Chinscratch: ..you'd think that would be a clue in the 'defense' of God Most High, why he has intervened with (fiery?) Judgment, including the flood, two or three times.. And justification in his demonstrating his displeasure in it. We'd have to think deep displeasure. And if some were left in the land they could contaminate israel, which they did, and ps106? 116? sounds like it was the 'last straw' as far as Yahweh, Most High our Father was concerned.

:Chinscratch: It's very true my message on this can't leave out how this depravity of human sacrifice sprang up everywhere.

I know that he does not need our defense!  :laughing7: But people read the online debates.. one or two I hope.. And when the accusation is made, it's always told as god the bully slaughtering folks in the Old Testament for no good reason.

Amazing that darkness so flourishes.. To make a spot for Messiah to be born.. God bless all those folks who followed Jesus around in crowds, running out of the town.. around the lake.. The word that gives light/life ..is the light of men.. What I'm looking for is two or three sentences, short n sweet (..somewhere I have bible prophecy summarized in a short paragraph.. i wonder where that is..)

Thank you CST and GIL.. :thumbsup:

Hmm, yes but this is a Christian catch 22. We are expected to give defence of God's actions here because of claims made about God's character in the New Testament. Claims to God's love in the OT are less clear.

Modern people would never hold this as OK, but people cannot be morally superior to God without overthrowing God, yet the worst of humanity in recent history has made this look a lot a lot like an example of the worst of humanity in more distant history. This seems so unloving to modern sensibilities the demand of atheists is to defend the idea of God being supremely loving when He's done something that we pretty much all agree is horrifically unloving. The idea is that God cannot lower His moral standards for anything. If God's actions here cannot be morally defended He cannot be a god worthy of our worship and praise. In principle this is a position I sympathise with because God being worth of the worship and praise He requires is something I hold as fundamentally important. If anyone finally decides God is not worthy of such UR becomes an impossibility. Of course, the atheists who make this accusation have already answered it in their minds God doesn't exist so the Israelites just unilaterally invaded Canaan and killed most everybody. Because people tend to believe these parts of the Bible even if they take out the God factor.

In fact this is complicated rather more by the fact that archaeologists tend to deny the purging of Canaan occurred at all, apparently the evidence is against it. So do you believe the Bible and the suggestion that God actually had Israel do these morally dubious actions and thus try to defend it. Or do you believe the archaeology which says this didn't happen but means the Bible isn't telling the literal truth?

So unlike GIL I would hold that it is important to commune with God and try to enlist His aid to get our head round these facts. Being apologists for the OT is important because it fundamentally undermines our position with those who are understandably horrified. The more tolerant are sympathetic over how 'deceived' we in that we're otherwise good and loving people trying to defend the indefensible because we believe that a non-existent (to them) god must be more loving than we are instead of just acknowledging it's appalling. Others just think we're equally appalling on some level and unfortunately some give them justification for this.

So the idea of 'progressive revelation' doesn't really cut it for me because that suggests that there is a co-extensive idea of 'progressive morality' which most people don't believe and they certainly don't believe about God who is supposed to have progressed as far as He needed to at every point of His eternal existence. God can't get morally better. This isn't isn't a matter of what God reveals to humans over time, this is a matter of how moral (ie righteous) He really is. Morality can't change overtime it can change only in regards to circumstances (admittedly some of which may pass never to return). God cannot behave unrighteously and yet it sounds like He did to a lot of modern sensibilities and that is why this question is so important.

Quote from: jugghead on August 18, 2018, 11:57:07 PM

Quote from: marie glen on August 16, 2018, 06:36:18 PM
It's my belief God has done all things perfectly, and I feel pretty confident most here, if not all, would agree with that. We know that with the great flood/deluge, God started all over again when it comes to man. Then he said he would not do that again, and set the bow in the clouds.

At the building of Babble Tower, he said to the Son, let us confuse their languages, for look nothing will be beyond them. (What utter havoc could they accomplish?)

Then much later, in Deuteronomy chapter 7:1-5, our Father God who is love (life & perfection?) ordered Israel to wipe out seven nations of Canaan. Now if he wanted them gone - they were human/child sacrificers - why wouldn't he just do it himself? For one thing I think he is very theatrical - in getting his point across / Logos. But I find myself thinking he has somewhat of a 'hands off' thinking. Now why should this be? Or do you think that's even true? That he really, besides the redemption, after the fall/disobedience he's really only intervened somewhat minimally.. Yes he rises and sets nations and borders.. But is he involved "directly" in all things? In his wisdom, are the wills or choices of people involved in this flow of life?

Just some pondering on his word..

Also, what might the world be like now and in history if the 7 Canaan nation's had been left alone? (Also, Israel didn't actually complete the assignment/mission. [War is such a horror, yet God has allowed it to exist.. I have to think it's for a perfect reason. :gsmile: ]

You know something MG, I love it when you bring up things that make me think. I read this the day you posted it and have been thinking about it ever since. When different examples are brought up, I always try to find the common denominator. And what I found in all three (and the fourth [war]), there is one thing that is common to every one, that being "making a name".

In the first example of the flood, man had made a name for himself and that name was "wickedness", in other words "see who we are" therefore God made a name for Himself by the destruction of the wicked in the world. (which is a foreshadowing of the destruction of the wickedness in men)

In the second example ... in which I found the key ... man was trying to make a name for himself ... "and let us make us a name" and what I saw in that one, was the name of "pride" ..... in other words "see what we can accomplish".

In the third one, the Canaanites had possession of the promised land, in the understanding of: "see what we accomplished"

then take the three examples and put them in order
1. "see who we are" ..... a name called "wicked"
2. "see what we we can accomplish" ..... a name called "pride"
3. "see what we have accomplished" ..... a name called "strength" ..... strength in what they possess

But all have left out what God is able to accomplish:
1. the destruction of "wickedness" in us
2. the destruction of "pride" in us
3. the destruction of "strength" in us

and all three examples of "flesh" .... the flesh possesses wickedness, the flesh possesses pride, but the flesh does not possess "the Promised land" ..... it does not possess "the promise" ..... it belongs to the Spirit, of which our spirit testifies with His Spirit "THAT IT IS HIS"

It is all about making a name for God, of which that name is "LOVE"

and the fourth [war] ..... for me, war is just an extreme example of two kids fighting over what was given to both ..... and one does not want to share it with the other ..... man "in the flesh" always has to try to prove he is stronger than another, whether it be two people or two nations ..... never coming to the understanding that God is stronger than man and that all of it will be brought to an end

BY HIM ..... THROUGH HIM ..... and FOR HIM

so that man "will be", "can be" and "is being" reconciled to God

Man possesses a dry promise "the promise of the destruction of wicked men", which is how the Pharisees saw the Messiah to be
Whereas
God possesses the wet promise (the Spirit promise) "the destruction of the wickedness in men", which is how we see the Messiah to be

For we will see Him as He is, not who we may think Him to be

my  :2c:

Yeah, I think that's among the reasons I don't think that it's the main reason. Here are a few quotes:

"Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed [inspired] into his nostrils the breath [spirit] of life, and the man became a living being." (Genesis 2:7)

"Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with (Or My spirit will not remain in) humans forever, for they are mortal (Or corrupt); their days will be a hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)

"Pairs of all creatures that have the breath [spirit] of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark." (Genesis 7:15)

"Every living thing that moved on land perished [expired, breathed out]—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind." (Genesis 7:21)

"Everything on dry land that had the breath (spirit) of life in its nostrils died." (Genesis 6:22)

To me these lines represent the important points. God's spirit is in man animating and giving him life. Biblical symbolism, perhaps, for how life is upheld entirely by the will of God. But this fact, indirectly involves God in all our corrupt and wicked acts because they can and do continue to do so as long as God continues to will their life. In principle God has every right to take this back if He chooses to do so although I expect there are some moral barriers in practice.

Nevertheless, it is now the way of things that eventually God will take this away from His creation in all cases because that's the way He designed things. When He does so is up to Him according to His purposes and, in fact, despite appearances, no one dies unless He does so.

I expect this puts God in a different moral position in regards to our lives to our lives than we have as does the fact that, unlike us, He can reverse His killings so they can be used, at least in theory, more constructively.

Comparing God's killing to human killing is not reasonable because God is in a different relative position to other humans.

Quote from: jugghead on August 18, 2018, 11:57:07 PM

Quote from: marie glen on August 16, 2018, 06:36:18 PM
It's my belief God has done all things perfectly, and I feel pretty confident most here, if not all, would agree with that. We know that with the great flood/deluge, God started all over again when it comes to man. Then he said he would not do that again, and set the bow in the clouds.

At the building of Babble Tower, he said to the Son, let us confuse their languages, for look nothing will be beyond them. (What utter havoc could they accomplish?)

Then much later, in Deuteronomy chapter 7:1-5, our Father God who is love (life & perfection?) ordered Israel to wipe out seven nations of Canaan. Now if he wanted them gone - they were human/child sacrificers - why wouldn't he just do it himself? For one thing I think he is very theatrical - in getting his point across / Logos. But I find myself thinking he has somewhat of a 'hands off' thinking. Now why should this be? Or do you think that's even true? That he really, besides the redemption, after the fall/disobedience he's really only intervened somewhat minimally.. Yes he rises and sets nations and borders.. But is he involved "directly" in all things? In his wisdom, are the wills or choices of people involved in this flow of life?

Just some pondering on his word..

Also, what might the world be like now and in history if the 7 Canaan nation's had been left alone? (Also, Israel didn't actually complete the assignment/mission. [War is such a horror, yet God has allowed it to exist.. I have to think it's for a perfect reason. :gsmile: ]

You know something MG, I love it when you bring up things that make me think. I read this the day you posted it and have been thinking about it ever since.

Kool! :Peace2:

Quote from: jugghead on August 18, 2018, 11:57:07 PM
When different examples are brought up, I always try to find the common denominator.

How interesting!

Quote from: jugghead on August 18, 2018, 11:57:07 PM
And what I found in all three (and the fourth [war]), there is one thing that is common to every one, that being "making a name".

In the first example of the flood, man had made a name for himself and that name was "wickedness", in other words "see who we are" therefore God made a name for Himself by the destruction of the wicked in the world. (which is a foreshadowing of the destruction of the wickedness in men)

In the second example ... in which I found the key ... man was trying to make a name for himself ... "and let us make us a name" and what I saw in that one, was the name of "pride" ..... in other words "see what we can accomplish".

In the third one, the Canaanites had possession of the promised land, in the understanding of: "see what we accomplished"

then take the three examples and put them in order
1. "see who we are" ..... a name called "wicked"
2. "see what we we can accomplish" ..... a name called "pride"
3. "see what we have accomplished" ..... a name called "strength" ..... strength in what they possess

But all have left out what God is able to accomplish:
1. the destruction of "wickedness" in us
2. the destruction of "pride" in us
3. the destruction of "strength" in us

and all three examples of "flesh" .... the flesh possesses wickedness, the flesh possesses pride, but the flesh does not possess "the Promised land" ..... it does not possess "the promise" ..... it belongs to the Spirit, of which our spirit testifies with His Spirit "THAT IT IS HIS"

That carnal character.. self serving, etc..

Quote from: jugghead on August 18, 2018, 11:57:07 PM
It is all about making a name for God, of which that name is "LOVE"

Amen!! :banana: :dsunny:

Quote from: jugghead on August 18, 2018, 11:57:07 PM
and the fourth [war] ..... for me, war is just an extreme example of two kids fighting over what was given to both ..... and one does not want to share it with the other ..... man "in the flesh" always has to try to prove he is stronger than another, whether it be two people or two nations ..... never coming to the understanding that God is stronger than man and that all of it will be brought to an end

BY HIM ..... THROUGH HIM ..... and FOR HIM

so that man "will be", "can be" and "is being" reconciled to God

Man possesses a dry promise "the promise of the destruction of wicked men", which is how the Pharisees saw the Messiah to be
Whereas
God possesses the wet promise (the Spirit promise) "the destruction of the wickedness in men", which is how we see the Messiah to be

For we will see Him as He is, not who we may think Him to be

my  :2c:

Amen, Especially "For we will see Him as He is, not who we may think Him to be" - we shall be like Him, because we will see Him as He is.." - I love that verse!

Man says God will destroy the wicked. He says He will destroy the wickedness/disobedience in man.. Not, imo, like the flood.. not, imo, like God pouring wrath - even though (!) it's described as that in the Book of Revelation. He is so wise. And clever. In metaphor, He pours out His 'wrath'. But Jesus paid the price. Yet I do believe the world (man's world) will come, in all likelihood, to a fiery end. And witnessing this - imo - all - witnessing on judgment 'day', and in our own day the particular fiery judgment or consequences of the day/each age and generation, that is; and the final crash of man's ways at 'the end' with God's Spirit working upon the hearts.. Well, He is writing His law (character) upon every heart :HeartThrob: :cloud9:.

Quote from: CST on August 20, 2018, 12:44:00 PM

Hmm, yes but this is a Christian catch 22. We are expected to give defence of God's actions here because of claims made about God's character in the New Testament. Claims to God's love in the OT are less clear.

Modern people would never hold this as OK, but people cannot be morally superior to God without overthrowing God, yet the worst of humanity in recent history has made this look a lot a lot like an example of the worst of humanity in more distant history. This seems so unloving to modern sensibilities the demand of atheists is to defend the idea of God being supremely loving when He's done something that we pretty much all agree is horrifically unloving. The idea is that God cannot lower His moral standards for anything. If God's actions here cannot be morally defended He cannot be a god worthy of our worship and praise. In principle this is a position I sympathise with because God being worth of the worship and praise He requires is something I hold as fundamentally important. If anyone finally decides God is not worthy of such UR becomes an impossibility. Of course, the atheists who make this accusation have already answered it in their minds God doesn't exist so the Israelites just unilaterally invaded Canaan and killed most everybody. Because people tend to believe these parts of the Bible even if they take out the God factor.

In fact this is complicated rather more by the fact that archaeologists tend to deny the purging of Canaan occurred at all, apparently the evidence is against it. So do you believe the Bible and the suggestion that God actually had Israel do these morally dubious actions and thus try to defend it. Or do you believe the archaeology which says this didn't happen but means the Bible isn't telling the literal truth?

So unlike GIL I would hold that it is important to commune with God and try to enlist His aid to get our head round these facts. Being apologists for the OT is important because it fundamentally undermines our position with those who are understandably horrified. The more tolerant are sympathetic over how 'deceived' we in that we're otherwise good and loving people trying to defend the indefensible because we believe that a non-existent (to them) god must be more loving than we are instead of just acknowledging it's appalling. Others just think we're equally appalling on some level and unfortunately some give them justification for this.

..too true..

Quote from: CST on August 20, 2018, 12:44:00 PM
God cannot behave unrighteously and yet it sounds like He did to a lot of modern sensibilities and that is why this question is so important.

It sure is wonderful to know that "every tongue will wholeheartedly confess/agree, Jesus is Lord"!
[https://biblehub.com/greek/1843.htm (https://biblehub.com/greek/1843.htm) - wholeheartedly
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2-11.htm (https://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2-11.htm)]

That when all is said and done, truth alone will remain standing/endure. What someone doesn't understand now, they will one day understand. So many trust man's word over God's word (logos, "expressed or written reason(ing)"). It doesn't bother me when those not yet saved don't understand something, but if I think believers are confused, that 'bothers' me, so to speak. And any time in a dialog about God, when there's misunderstanding, I'm happy to just plant some seed for thought.. whether it takes root, is a work, I figure, of God's Spirit, not mine. :gimmefive:

Hmm, I should point out that your standard for determining who the saved and yet-to-be-saved are may be flawed.

 :cloud9: Something given to me a long time ago on this.....7 represents the fullness of anything, whether it be good or evil. Those 7 nations were idolatrous and committed various offenses. I believe they represent the fullness of the darkness IN US that must be put to the sword to enter fully into our promised land. Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on August 21, 2018, 07:13:51 PM
:cloud9: Something given to me a long time ago on this.....7 represents the fullness of anything, whether it be good or evil. Those 7 nations were idolatrous and committed various offenses. I believe they represent the fullness of the darkness IN US that must be put to the sword to enter fully into our promised land. Blessings.....

Thanks! I was wondering if anyone would notice the "7".. or that is comment, as I was pretty sure many would notice it, as I did.. God is such a good teacher!

That's kind of how I feel the pit (of bottomless potential) is within any imperfect creature that has thinking ability.. aka, all and each one of us.. as in how low can imperfect go? An abyss. (Rev 9)

..Usually when I think of 7, I think of the book of Revelation and the 7 continents.. not sure why :dontknow:

I agree that the story of the ages is a revelation of God unfolding the light of the image of Christ unto mankind in general. Paul says this plainly in Acts 17, to the assembly of sages, philosophers and priests he encountered at Mars Hill.

So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23"For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

God was unknown to people of former ages outside the commonwealth of Israel, in terms of His name, His son and His throne- and Paul says He overlooked" the times of ignorance, but this does not mean He winked at human sacrifice, because from the beginning the law of God was written in the heart of man, as Paul also says in Romans 1 and 2.

Romans 1
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

It is interesting to note that the worship of created things always accompanied the practice of human sacrifice, because it is one of two or three "ultimate manifestations" of the "futile speculations" and "darkened mind" that comes from not honoring God, who manifested Himself at a certain level purely through the testimony of creation. That sense of right(love) and wrong(hate) was written into the heart of every being who was ever born in any age.

Romans 2
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

The judgment of God is not about arbitrary punishments for breaking the law, or doing wrong. It is about revealing through fire the essence of our acts and intents- and the fire is the love of Jesus Christ, revealed in His presence," whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose face shines like the sun"

IMO the true beauty of our gospel is the understanding that light will shine out of darkness and harmony arise out of chaos because " the word of the Lord is sharper than and two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit and makinf manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart" and "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do".

Every word act and intent will be judged(discerned, revealed) by the act of Jesus on the cross, so thatevery mouth will be closed when He judges and every knee shall bow in acknowledgment of the glory of His sacrifice and the grace it pourd upon all.

So when the prophet Isaiah speaks of His appearing, "who will slay the wicked with the breath of His mouth" he is speaking of the same "sword of the Spirit" that caused him to say, "I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell among a people of unclean lips" or for Paul to say, "In  my flesh dwells no good thing"- and in both of those statements is the "glorious freedom of the children of God" revealed as salvation by grace into the love of God by the birth of Christ in the broken and contrite heart.

There is no entrance to grace without the broken and contrite heart, so when the arrogance of man ascends before Him like negative ions rising from the ground, as men "fill up the cup" of their wickedness- the lightning wil strike(quickened and active, sharper than any two edged sword) when contact is made with the positive ions "coming down out of the heavens" and light shines out of darkness and the futility of men is revealed so that brokeness/repentence becomes the door of hope(access to faith and revelation).

Hosea 2

"I will punish her for the days of the Baals
            When she used to offer sacrifices to them
            And adorn herself with her earrings and jewelry,
            And follow her lovers, so that she forgot Me," declares the LORD.

Restoration of Israel

14"Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
            Bring her into the wilderness
            And speak kindly to her.

      15"Then I will give her her vineyards from there,
            And the valley of Achor(valley of the sin of Achan) as a door of hope.
            And she will sing there as in the days of her youth,
            As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.

      16"It will come about in that day," declares the LORD,
            "That you will call Me Ishi(husband)
   And will no longer call Me Baali.(master)

      17"For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth,
            So that they will be mentioned by their names no more

So God brought terrible consequences upon Israel for human sacrifice and "worshiping the creation over the creator", but the goal was to humble her and to restore her, and that is the goal of all His judgments in all history for all people from the beginning to the end. In every age God appeals to transgressors with mercy for a long time(God is not slow concerning His promses as some imagine but is patient allowing all the opportunity to repent) but should they "fill up the cup" of wickedness then He will strike them with the rod that breaks the vessels into potsherds so that they can be remade by the Potter according to His pleasure. The Old Testament, maligned as it is, is full of the testimony that God does this as a last resort after many appeals. Job, Hosea, Jeremiah, really, almost all the prophets are filled with God's tears for His wayward children and appeals to return to love and life.

Acts 17
"and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

If all mankind shares consciousness in God(which I believe)...God is teaching all mankind through these things which all work according to the counsel of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Jesus Christ- the salvation of all and the gathering together of all into the "all in all" through Jesus Christ.

Quote from: Cardinal on August 21, 2018, 07:13:51 PM
:cloud9: Something given to me a long time ago on this.....7 represents the fullness of anything, whether it be good or evil. Those 7 nations were idolatrous and committed various offenses. I believe they represent the fullness of the darkness IN US that must be put to the sword to enter fully into our promised land. Blessings.....

But, conversely, because of that the Bible only names seven nations in its text.

Quote from: eaglesway on August 22, 2018, 01:26:17 AM
I agree that the story of the ages is a revelation of God unfolding the light of the image of Christ unto mankind in general. Paul says this plainly in Acts 17, to the assembly of sages, philosophers and priests he encountered at Mars Hill.

So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23"For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

God was unknown to people of former ages outside the commonwealth of Israel, in terms of His name, His son and His throne- and Paul says He overlooked" the times of ignorance, but this does not mean He winked at human sacrifice, because from the beginning the law of God was written in the heart of man, as Paul also says in Romans 1 and 2.

Romans 1
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

It is interesting to note that the worship of created things always accompanied the practice of human sacrifice, because it is one of two or three "ultimate manifestations" of the "futile speculations" and "darkened mind" that comes from not honoring God, who manifested Himself at a certain level purely through the testimony of creation. That sense of right(love) and wrong(hate) was written into the heart of every being who was ever born in any age.

Romans 2
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

The judgment of God is not about arbitrary punishments for breaking the law, or doing wrong. It is about revealing through fire the essence of our acts and intents- and the fire is the love of Jesus Christ, revealed in His presence," whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose face shines like the sun"

IMO the true beauty of our gospel is the understanding that light will shine out of darkness and harmony arise out of chaos because " the word of the Lord is sharper than and two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit and makinf manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart" and "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do".

Every word act and intent will be judged(discerned, revealed) by the act of Jesus on the cross, so thatevery mouth will be closed when He judges and every knee shall bow in acknowledgment of the glory of His sacrifice and the grace it pourd upon all.

So when the prophet Isaiah speaks of His appearing, "who will slay the wicked with the breath of His mouth" he is speaking of the same "sword of the Spirit" that caused him to say, "I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell among a people of unclean lips" or for Paul to say, "In  my flesh dwells no good thing"- and in both of those statements is the "glorious freedom of the children of God" revealed as salvation by grace into the love of God by the birth of Christ in the broken and contrite heart.

There is no entrance to grace without the broken and contrite heart, so when the arrogance of man ascends before Him like negative ions rising from the ground, as men "fill up the cup" of their wickedness- the lightning wil strike(quickened and active, sharper than any two edged sword) when contact is made with the positive ions "coming down out of the heavens" and light shines out of darkness and the futility of men is revealed so that brokeness/repentence becomes the door of hope(access to faith and revelation).

Hosea 2

"I will punish her for the days of the Baals
            When she used to offer sacrifices to them
            And adorn herself with her earrings and jewelry,
            And follow her lovers, so that she forgot Me," declares the LORD.

Restoration of Israel

14"Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
            Bring her into the wilderness
            And speak kindly to her.

      15"Then I will give her her vineyards from there,
            And the valley of Achor(valley of the sin of Achan) as a door of hope.
            And she will sing there as in the days of her youth,
            As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.

      16"It will come about in that day," declares the LORD,
            "That you will call Me Ishi(husband)
   And will no longer call Me Baali.(master)

      17"For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth,
            So that they will be mentioned by their names no more

So God brought terrible consequences upon Israel for human sacrifice and "worshiping the creation over the creator", but the goal was to humble her and to restore her, and that is the goal of all His judgments in all history for all people from the beginning to the end. In every age God appeals to transgressors with mercy for a long time(God is not slow concerning His promses as some imagine but is patient allowing all the opportunity to repent) but should they "fill up the cup" of wickedness then He will strike them with the rod that breaks the vessels into potsherds so that they can be remade by the Potter according to His pleasure. The Old Testament, maligned as it is, is full of the testimony that God does this as a last resort after many appeals. Job, Hosea, Jeremiah, really, almost all the prophets are filled with God's tears for His wayward children and appeals to return to love and life.

Acts 17
"and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

If all mankind shares consciousness in God(which I believe)...God is teaching all mankind through these things which all work according to the counsel of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Jesus Christ- the salvation of all and the gathering together of all into the "all in all" through Jesus Christ.

Mars Hill is a bad translation the Greek is Areios Pagos, which is presumably Ares Hill, Ares being the Greek deity that the Romans called 'Mars' why there's an alter to an unknown god in the vicinity of a hill dedicated to a known god of war is beyond me. It may well not be that much in the vicinity although the Athenians are clearly presumed to be aware of it.

"In every age God appeals to transgressors with mercy for a long time." Do we have a Biblical quote to support this? The Canaanites seemed to be in a state of such apostasy it seems hard to believe any of the would hear God should he speak. God Himself tended to believe that sinful humans would always find their false idols more attractive than Him if left to choose for themselves.

I think there is clear biblical support. The books of Jonah, Hosea and Jeremiah are way up there. God clearly displays His heart to give an opportunity for repentance. Also there is the statement of Peter

2 Peter 3:9, ESV: "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

and 2 Tim 2

24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

What God requires of His servants is a reflection of His own character- His policy for the kingdom of God is our becoming like Him. Patient, merciful, gentle. Ir as the I AM revealed Himself to Moses....

6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

True, but the Bible is also clear that God promised the land to Abraham before Israel even went into Egypt. It would scarcely serve His purposes if He warned them and they actually repented. Then Israel would be locked out as God no longer had the moral justification for expelling them. And who would He send? The Bible usually teaches that God makes this offer by sending prophets, invariable born in Israel and faithful to Him, to give the warning. But all the Israelites are stuck in Egypt.

Of course this is no final obstacle but it does raise significant questions.

Not for me!  :dsunny:

Epeshians 4
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ

Ah...but they did repent on a number of occasions. Under Jehoshaphat, under Hezekiah, under Josiah, just to name a few off the top of my head. And Mannaseh, one of the all-time wickedest kings repented and God restored him to the throne and to the land after he had been chained in the court of a heathen king for his evil. Hosea was the prophet to Israel in his day and he prophesied both God's love for them and the ultimate fulfillment of all his covenant to faithless Israel, not because of Israel's character, but because of His character, which is based in mercy- so that all chastisement ends in repentance and mercy and restoration.

I am one of those folks who believe the two are now one and there is no more dividing wall so imo the promised land is something new now for all the house of Israel which includes all the children of Abraham by faith and the circumcision of the heart, repentance. Everything else is shadow, the fulness is in Christ. Everything is being gathered into the one new man.

And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,

In the all in all there will be no more rule power and authority. No more Gentile, Jew or BArbarian. The inheritance will be "the glorious liberty of the children of God" and this generation is revelation that "we are a kind of first-fruits of His creation" by being in Jesus Christ- no other distinction necessary. The promised land is being filled up to all the fulness of God. Victory over the adversaries(the world, the flesh and the devil, the lust of the eyes, the pleasures of the mind, the pride of life, the letter that kills) and partaking of the divine nature are the new promised land in my view.

Hmm, I'm not sure you can compare Israel, which we know were supposed to have Him as their one and only God and had been told (Deuteronomy) of the benefits of repentance, and the nations who were there before them who had no obvious reason to listen to or even recognize Him if He spoke to them.

It seems to me Paul does in Romans 2.

4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Paul was a messenger to the Greek and Latin nations. I don't know of any messengers God sent to the Canaanite nations. I certainly can't currently name any.

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law"

This seems to be a disturbing quote when considered in this context. It seems to suggest that nations that don't have the law can be treated by God without any consideration or responsibility whatsoever. Which can't be true.

I think the nation of Israel was the messenger to the Canaanites, the Lampstand.

"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.'As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' Acts 17

Ps 19
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,


Ro 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 :thumbsup:

Quote from: CST on August 31, 2018, 01:05:35 PM
Paul was a messenger to the Greek and Latin nations. I don't know of any messengers God sent to the Canaanite nations. I certainly can't currently name any.

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law"

This seems to be a disturbing quote when considered in this context. It seems to suggest that nations that don't have the law can be treated by God without any consideration or responsibility whatsoever. Which can't be true.

:Chinscratch: I don't think in terms of God doing this and that to folks and nations.. though to barbaric folks, I think this is the tone.. and necessary, but I think of it in terms of God allowing what man does to run its course. Surely that's punishment enough! :eek:

And then.... all are resurrected. Some immediately "to life" and "some to a resurrection of judgment/decision"/discernment? How is God to reveal to "all in heaven & earth" the utter horror of the wrong way except by each and every rational, able to think and reason, creature coming face to face with the full understanding of just what is the horrible depths of darkness the wrong way leads to?
:Peace2: p.s., the world's "life is a rainbow" is nothing more than delusion.. man is being allowed to be 'on the throne' and life is not yet a rainbow..

Quote from: eaglesway on October 12, 2018, 08:22:46 AM
I think the nation of Israel was the messenger to the Canaanites, the Lampstand.

What by destroying them? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.

Quote from: marie glen on October 12, 2018, 03:46:48 PM
:thumbsup:

Quote from: CST on August 31, 2018, 01:05:35 PM
Paul was a messenger to the Greek and Latin nations. I don't know of any messengers God sent to the Canaanite nations. I certainly can't currently name any.

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law"

This seems to be a disturbing quote when considered in this context. It seems to suggest that nations that don't have the law can be treated by God without any consideration or responsibility whatsoever. Which can't be true.

:Chinscratch: I don't think in terms of God doing this and that to folks and nations.. though to barbaric folks, I think this is the tone.. and necessary, but I think of it in terms of God allowing what man does to run its course. Surely that's punishment enough! :eek:

And then.... all are resurrected. Some immediately "to life" and "some to a resurrection of judgment/decision"/discernment? How is God to reveal to "all in heaven & earth" the utter horror of the wrong way except by each and every rational, able to think and reason, creature coming face to face with the full understanding of just what is the horrible depths of darkness the wrong way leads to?
:Peace2: p.s., the world's "life is a rainbow" is nothing more than delusion.. man is being allowed to be 'on the throne' and life is not yet a rainbow..

I'm sure there are poetic ways life could be presented as a rainbow because that's how poetry works. Other than that the Bible suggests that is not punishment enough or God would leave well alone and there would be no revelation.

Quote from: CST on October 12, 2018, 05:52:33 PM
I'm sure there are poetic ways life could be presented as a rainbow because that's how poetry works. Other than that the Bible suggests that is not punishment enough or God would leave well alone and there would be no revelation.

If He left well enough alone, wouldn't we all simply die and that would be it? "The wages of sin" being "death"? This is (part of) what I believe is the stark horror and reality of what death really is. That one be gone.. for ever. Gone.. no longer in existence.

To me the idea of inherent immortality of an unsaved soul/psyche, contradicts God's Word(s). After all, didn't God say after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit (of the forbidden way) they were barred from the tree of life, lest they live forever? (In the wretched state of the carnal, self-first, character, which is, in essence, a bottomless pit of possibility, which history has actually, already proven.)

 :2c: it is/was Father's will that man not live eternally in his evil/good  mix state[thank God!!!]but that the sin be taken away byJesus

and man live eternally in perfection.. in both God and Jesus image.YOU must be perfect!

    in His mercy He even cut the time we have to spend in this state dealing with evil.

Quote from: marie glen on October 12, 2018, 07:13:20 PM

If He left well enough alone, wouldn't we all simply die and that would be it? "The wages of sin" being "death"? This is (part of) what I believe is the stark horror and reality of what death really is. That one be gone.. for ever. Gone.. no longer in existence.

To me the idea of inherent immortality of an unsaved soul/psyche, contradicts God's Word(s). After all, didn't God say after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit (of the forbidden way) they were barred from the tree of life, lest they live forever? (In the wretched state of the carnal, self-first, character, which is, in essence, a bottomless pit of possibility, which history has actually, already proven.)

If He withdrew His life-giving and sustaining spirit, yes we'd die, He did this before when He sent the floor and to be precise He does it on a smaller scale when any one dies anywhere. But if He maintain His spirit but otherwise wasn't involved; didn't reveal the law didn't intervene in human actions didn't slay certain wicked people, all of which we believe His does as a fundamental aspect of His relationship with the world, then I'm not sure how long we'd last, the most wicked people would probably destroy the less wicked ones and then after that... goodness knows. I agree with you that evil is ultimately self-defeating and, if you believe in it Satan's kingdom will ultimately fall. But also if you believe in it, Satan's kingdom is utterly evil and, in some sense or another, it persists yet. So perhaps being wholly evil isn't enough to destroy any kingdom. Mind you, I'm not sure how long it would last if it didn't have this kingdom to wage war on.

This is getting too frustrating for me. I think I'd like to vent a little bit, and probably doesn't even fit in this conversation. People cannot understand me. A literal interpretation (along with spiritual) is seen, at best, to be inferior. But I have a driving urge to condense and summarize and hand out/share.

How can I get people to hear what I'm trying to say? That it's all so supremely simple. And could be so easily passed on, making u.r. disciples in all nations.. especially in this day of the world wide web. But a literal big picture seems to be frowned upon.. I am lost in the we all have our view and that's what gets talked about. But isn't there something His Word is actually saying? A clear and cohesive message.. Is it really all about what we think it says? I guess I need a break. I'll just pray the whole gospel doesn't get swallowed up in a miasma of human thought that it's all metaphor, all only spiritual, and individual, and there is no collective.. it's all floaty and gauzy and who cares if anyone can come into the room and hear everyone talking in incomprehensible languages? I mean all saying something different. I understand there can be differences concerning the lof because it's not obvious. But some things, surely, are obvious and even :eek: literal.

It's funny how with the body (individual) it's the earthly first, and then the spiritual one. But in our thoughts, with God's Word, it's the spiritual.. and no earthly. But I'm an earthly or that is down to earth kind of gal. I think God's creation is supremely glorious.. not just some rag we're all being strained through.

Well, I apologize. I'm very willing to compromise with the idea there is lots of metaphor, but the idea that there is no literal, well, that, to me, is just insanity. Isn't it kind of like the idea that everything is relative..?

Sorry, just ignore me :doh: :faint: This has only vaguely applied to whether or not there is a literal adversary as portrayed in the Bible as a he, for instance, or as roaming the earth, acting like a roaring lion, seeking to devour.

Revelation 12 talks about the dragon trying to devour the manchild Israel birthed - Son of man, and coincidentally there is that account of Herod the Great killing the young boy children of Bethlehem in an attempt to kill the Christ he had heard about. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12%3A1-15&version=NASB

   :Peace2: ( :Chinscratch: maybe i'm thinking but, too much, rather than "and".)

 :friendstu:

Each in his order Glenda!

All will be revealed.

Scales will fall from eyes.

Whatever differences in interpretation we have here are, IMO, are just because we are al seeing thru the glass darkly. Most importantly, we all believe  in the victorious gospel!

I'm sorry you are frustrated. I don't think any of your views are inferior. I love your example of the tree of possibilities. I love when you remind us that without God we are in death. That God is life itself. That it's all a learning lesson. That we won't be sitting on clouds with harps but actually DOING things.  What you contribute here isn't lost in a sea of opinion, it to me is a part of the truth that we all have parts of as well, with the fullness being revealed later.

Love ya!

Yes...A person has their view of truth because truth is of Love – and that person likes to pass it on if they can because that's the Nature of Love - to give of Itself over and over - and it's disappointing when others don't seem to take that love. Don't worry Marie Glen, it's a Christ attribute, the One who thirsted for humanity.

One thing I don't want is just a "true for you" mentality, as that stinks of relativism. Is the interpretation someone has actually true, that is actually going to be fulfilled in some way? Or is it just true only for that person?

It is great if different people are given different aspects of a verse. But, if 2 of them are totally contradictory to each other, obviously only one is right.

I do know what you mean. I believe that it's not possible for any one person to understand much of Truth in its entirety, but if one person knows nothing of Love then even what they do know is worth nothing at all. As for me, without a doubt I would rather be wrong and loving than right and devoid of compassion. To me, just an inner picture of Jesus Christ or even His Name alone, is worth more than a thousand verses that cause rancour and enmity or bring misery to another, as has been witnessed in the long history of Biblical theology. Although this means that I'm probably in the wrong place for that, but that's just my opinion.

1 Corinthians 13:13

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Also, MG, if you have these things that you want to share, I'd be interested in reading them in a new thread.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 13, 2018, 08:01:25 PM
One thing I don't want is just a "true for you" mentality, as that stinks of relativism. Is the interpretation someone has actually true, that is actually going to be fulfilled in some way? Or is it just true only for that person?

It is great if different people are given different aspects of a verse. But, if 2 of them are totally contradictory to each other, obviously only one is right.

Or both are wrong

In what I have come to understand, what may seem as a contradiction to us could very well line up perfectly with God in how He interprets it .....

we see dimly ..... therefore contradictions are made known, some may be resolved while we are still in this body of flesh, others will not be resolved until after we have left it ..... either way God resolves them

and to take it a step further, both could be right .... just seeing them from a different perspective, what I mean by that is, if two people are on opposite sides of a door, to one the doorknob is on the right, to the other the doorknob is on the left .... what can seem like a contradiction to each other is not a contradiction when the same thing is seen AS the same thing from both perspectives

a simple truth ..... but it has depth that can go beyond our capabilities  :2c:

Quote from: jugghead on October 15, 2018, 04:37:31 AM

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 13, 2018, 08:01:25 PM
One thing I don't want is just a "true for you" mentality, as that stinks of relativism. Is the interpretation someone has actually true, that is actually going to be fulfilled in some way? Or is it just true only for that person?

It is great if different people are given different aspects of a verse. But, if 2 of them are totally contradictory to each other, obviously only one is right.

Or both are wrong

In what I have come to understand, what may seem as a contradiction to us could very well line up perfectly with God in how He interprets it .....

we see dimly ..... therefore contradictions are made known, some may be resolved while we are still in this body of flesh, others will not be resolved until after we have left it ..... either way God resolves them

and to take it a step further, both could be right .... just seeing them from a different perspective, what I mean by that is, if two people are on opposite sides of a door, to one the doorknob is on the right, to the other the doorknob is on the left .... what can seem like a contradiction to each other is not a contradiction when the same thing is seen AS the same thing from both perspectives

a simple truth ..... but it has depth that can go beyond our capabilities  :2c:

Thanks Jugghead, you put into words perfectly what I have been on the cusp of thinking.

Quote from: marie glen on October 13, 2018, 05:36:19 PM
This is getting too frustrating for me. I think I'd like to vent a little bit, and probably doesn't even fit in this conversation. People cannot understand me. A literal interpretation (along with spiritual) is seen, at best, to be inferior. But I have a driving urge to condense and summarize and hand out/share.

How can I get people to hear what I'm trying to say? That it's all so supremely simple. And could be so easily passed on, making u.r. disciples in all nations.. especially in this day of the world wide web. But a literal big picture seems to be frowned upon.. I am lost in the we all have our view and that's what gets talked about. But isn't there something His Word is actually saying? A clear and cohesive message.. Is it really all about what we think it says? I guess I need a break. I'll just pray the whole gospel doesn't get swallowed up in a miasma of human thought that it's all metaphor, all only spiritual, and individual, and there is no collective.. it's all floaty and gauzy and who cares if anyone can come into the room and hear everyone talking in incomprehensible languages? I mean all saying something different. I understand there can be differences concerning the lof because it's not obvious. But some things, surely, are obvious and even :eek: literal.

It's funny how with the body (individual) it's the earthly first, and then the spiritual one. But in our thoughts, with God's Word, it's the spiritual.. and no earthly. But I'm an earthly or that is down to earth kind of gal. I think God's creation is supremely glorious.. not just some rag we're all being strained through.

Well, I apologize. I'm very willing to compromise with the idea there is lots of metaphor, but the idea that there is no literal, well, that, to me, is just insanity. Isn't it kind of like the idea that everything is relative..?

Sorry, just ignore me :doh: :faint: This has only vaguely applied to whether or not there is a literal adversary as portrayed in the Bible as a he, for instance, or as roaming the earth, acting like a roaring lion, seeking to devour.

Revelation 12 talks about the dragon trying to devour the manchild Israel birthed - Son of man, and coincidentally there is that account of Herod the Great killing the young boy children of Bethlehem in an attempt to kill the Christ he had heard about. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12%3A1-15&version=NASB

   :Peace2: ( :Chinscratch: maybe i'm thinking but, too much, rather than "and".)

Sorry for frustrating you Glenda, I don't think you need to be. I'm waffling a bit as I am speaking a lot of my thoughts before I've reached conclusions. That can confuse and frustrate people because they want to find conclusions and there aren't any there.

I'm not entirely sure the big picture is frowned upon though, it's much more likely it's so big no one can see it. A bit that that model of a group of blind people holding different parts of an elephant. Also in this case it might be possible to see the picture but if you're up close you can only see parts of it, if you're further away you can see all of it but it's really blurry.

Thanks CST.. "His mercies are new every morning.." - next day I felt much better, lol..

:) Thanks, Glenda.

Quote from: eaglesway on August 28, 2018, 12:04:49 AM
Ah...but they did repent on a number of occasions. Under Jehoshaphat, under Hezekiah, under Josiah, just to name a few off the top of my head. And Mannaseh, one of the all-time wickedest kings repented and God restored him to the throne and to the land after he had been chained in the court of a heathen king for his evil. Hosea was the prophet to Israel in his day and he prophesied both God's love for them and the ultimate fulfillment of all his covenant to faithless Israel, not because of Israel's character, but because of His character, which is based in mercy- so that all chastisement ends in repentance and mercy and restoration.

Is there a chastisement for anyone in the afterlife?  And if so, of what does that chastisement consist?  (receiving the unloving treatment that one dished out to others while living the physical life?)  And who is that chastisement meted out to?
Is every person that has lived and will live a son/daughter of God?

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=son+chastise&qs_version=YLT%3BKJV%3BDLNT
Deuteronomy 8:5 (YLT)  ....as a man chastiseth his son Jehovah thy God is chastising thee,
Proverbs 3:11 (YLT)  Chastisement of Jehovah, my son, despise not, And be not vexed with His reproof,
Proverbs 13:24 (YLT)  Whoso is sparing his rod is hating his son, And whoso is loving him hath hastened him chastisement.
Proverbs 19:18 (YLT) Chastise thy son, for there is hope....
Proverbs 29:17 (YLT)  Chastise thy son, and he giveth thee comfort, Yea, he giveth delights to thy soul.
Hebrews 12:8 (KJV) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Here's another couple witnesses for chastisement, but it comes together when the verses do, and with some Revelation  :winkgrin:

Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

G1194
δέρω
derō
der'-o
A primary verb; properly to flay, that is, (by implication) to scourge, or (by analogy) to thrash: - beat, smite.
Total KJV occurrences: 15

Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

H2250
חֲבֻרָה    חַבֻּרָה    חַבּוּרָה
chabbûrâh    chabbûrâh    chăbûrâh
(1,2) khab-boo-raw', (3) khab-oo-raw'
From H2266; properly bound (with stripes), that is, a weal (or black and blue mark itself): - blueness, bruise, hurt, stripe, wound.
Total KJV occurrences: 7

H2266
חָבַר
châbar
khaw-bar'
A primitive root; to join (literally or figuratively); specifically (by means of spells) to fascinate: - charm (-er), be compact, couple (together), have fellowship with, heap up, join (self, together), league.
Total KJV occurrences: 29

Whether or not this is literal stripes(beating), I do not know. But, we are healed by His stripes.

Quote from: lastpost on October 13, 2018, 08:42:09 PM
without a doubt I would rather be wrong and loving than right and devoid of compassion

One can, without any compassion, 'win' an argument and clearly display one's rightness, and in the process alienate the other.  One guy was wowed by a guest apologist speaker on campus who crushed every objection presented to Christianity (and humiliated one questioner in the process), only to, as the crowd was dispersing, overhear a girl say, 'I don't care if he's right-- he's still a jerk.'  That overheard remark almost got the guy totally disillusioned with apologetics.
People are fragile.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 22, 2018, 05:25:25 AM
Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.   ....
Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.  ....
Whether or not this is literal stripes(beating), I do not know. But, we are healed by His stripes.

James 3:1 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James%203:1
Not many should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive a stricter judgment,

Quote from: DavidFord on October 22, 2018, 05:27:46 AM

Quote from: lastpost on October 13, 2018, 08:42:09 PM
without a doubt I would rather be wrong and loving than right and devoid of compassion

One can, without any compassion, 'win' an argument and clearly display one's rightness, and in the process alienate the other.  One guy was wowed by a guest apologist speaker on campus who crushed every objection presented to Christianity (and humiliated one questioner in the process), only to, as the crowd was dispersing, overhear a girl say, 'I don't care if he's right-- he's still a jerk.'  That overheard remark almost got the guy totally disillusioned with apologetics.
People are fragile.

I could quote the whole 1 Corinthians 13 here, but I'll only leave 7 verses  :banana:

1Co 13:1  If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling; 
1Co 13:2  and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing; 
1Co 13:3  and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing. 
1Co 13:4  The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up, 
1Co 13:5  doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil, 
1Co 13:6  rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth; 
1Co 13:7  all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth. 

Quote from: DavidFord on October 22, 2018, 05:27:46 AM

Quote from: lastpost on October 13, 2018, 08:42:09 PM
without a doubt I would rather be wrong and loving than right and devoid of compassion

One can, without any compassion, 'win' an argument and clearly display one's rightness, and in the process alienate the other.  One guy was wowed by a guest apologist speaker on campus who crushed every objection presented to Christianity (and humiliated one questioner in the process), only to, as the crowd was dispersing, overhear a girl say, 'I don't care if he's right-- he's still a jerk.'  That overheard remark almost got the guy totally disillusioned with apologetics.
People are fragile.

That sounds apocryphal, I wouldn't be surprised if there are versions of the story set in different states and even different countries and sometimes the girl is a boy and and sometime the guy is even a gal.