2-way chat with God: good Father vs. neverending torture

[GodIsLove]

Not reading it all but I just wanted to quickly comment, when I (currently) view something as spiritual I don't think it's all about me or some flowy fake thing...I believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical. I don't know what it entails exactly but that's my current belief. If I say something may be individual or personal I do believe we are all connected and the salvation of all is collective. If for example things happen on an individual basis to people I think that doesn't exclude a big picture collective experience either. I think we all impact each other and Love is an outpouring and a self sacrificing and if some are closer to Christ they only desire to pull others to where they are as well. So individual doesn't have to mean selfish. Here on earth we are all individually living life but when Christ is in us it begins to cause us to want to help and love others. This I believe is only going to grow in us as we get closer to Him.

[MusicLover123]

Well, in Quantum Physics there is something called entanglement, and basically it means that if I do something, it affects things around me, around the world, and even the other side of the universe. This happens even faster than the speed of light. Maybe you could say the speed of thought.

[CST]

No, no, you misunderstand. The speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul. Remember if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved. Do they know of Paul similarly?

Demons lie often; even if "the speech of the demon suggests some sort of equity between Jesus and Paul," that doesn't necessarily mean that such "equity" actually existed.
"if you believe the Bible according to what it says about demons, they know about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth and that knowledge is very involved"
References about demons:
knowing "about Jesus from before the foundation of the Earth"? 
having "very involved" knowledge about Jesus?

Again, you're missing the point. That dialogue, lie or not, it what the Bible reported and has to be treated as such.

[DavidFord]

Again, you're missing the point. That dialogue, lie or not, it what the Bible reported and has to be treated as such.

"That dialogue... has to be treated as" what, exactly?  (truth?  an entity's comment reported by the Bible?)
The Bible records many comments by various people, plus comments by demons and satan, and some of the comments are lies. Just because the Bible records that 'X said Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a truthful statement.

[marie glen]

Amen, GodIsLove :thumbsup: I am only a little concerned with too much metaphor. Only little concerned because the whole world is smothered in untruth, but Jesus is still Lord. And because of the five words so poorly translated to read hell, metaphor is quite big in some UR/CU circles, which I think when too prevalent gives a bad name to ur. If the literal straight forward could just be included.. so it can make sense to hearers. I’ve read u.r. belief referred to, quite a few times, as gobbly gook or such but if the dialog included more scripture and more down to earth understanding, to go along with, the metaphor or spiritual application of everything.. I try not to get too zealous and to be courteous, but  :dontknow: :gsmile:

Well, in Quantum Physics there is something called entanglement, and basically it means that if I do something, it affects things around me, around the world, and even the other side of the universe. This happens even faster than the speed of light. Maybe you could say the speed of thought.

I simply am concerned about too much metaphor, as a lot of it I think comes close to disagreeing with the straight out reading.

I know things happen within. I guess I’ve developed a kind of opinion (or observation?) as traveling to different forums that lots of folks because of the 5 poorly translated words into hell, they now distrust the Bible. Which I think is bound to lead to a loosing of the truth.. As the heart is deceitful so if truth becomes something we find in ourself..

Of course it does complicate things that the Holy Spirit guides us and of course it’s a within and inner thing, lol.

I think that’s why the (tip? of the) sword of truth is what it takes to separate true thread from untrue thread. The world is so flooded with ideas and theory. And people seeking..

“Law of entanglement” :thumbsup: & everything has the tendency to grow. If we know the word - “thy word is truth” - we can prune the buds of untruth that sprout within us.

[marie glen]

Again, you're missing the point. That dialogue, lie or not, it what the Bible reported and has to be treated as such.

"That dialogue... has to be treated as" what, exactly?  (truth?  an entity's comment reported by the Bible?)
The Bible records many comments by various people, plus comments by demons and satan, and some of the comments are lies. Just because the Bible records that 'X said Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a truthful statement.

Like the example of Elisha and the children and bears? It's recorded, and Elisha was a servant of God at the time.. but was it God inspired? Or even God approves?

Logic tells me no. But atheists, and even newer believers? worry over it.. (logos/logic hand in hand)

[lastpost]

Not reading it all but I just wanted to quickly comment, when I (currently) view something as spiritual I don't think it's all about me or some flowy fake thing...I believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/luke17.21.html

"The new rendering is used only because the translators think it is theologically impossible that Jesus would say that the Kingdom of God is "within" people...

Here Christ is obviously contrasting the outward appearance (μετὰ παρατηρήσεως "with observation," v. 20) with the inner spiritual reality of God's rule...

Moreover, as S.C. Carpenter explains, "For 'among' S. Luke would have said ἐν μέσῳ, which occurs seven times in his Gospel (see especially xxii. 27) and four times in Acts...""

Edit...

Possibly one for you David, the Syriac link is no longer working?

The Kingdom of God is inside you.' The Ancient Syriac Versions in Support of the Correct Translation

[marie glen]

Yes but is it destined to be only within? The Greek spans, as we know kind of wide, in this case is within, among and in the midst. Context of course would likely give more sense of which was the Lord's intent when he said it.

The problem I have is if the kingdom is thought to be only within, the heart is deceitful so I figure there has to be something outward that is the measure of what's true and what isn't. If each person's interpretation in their heart is truth.. what if it all differs from heart to heart? And is that what Jesus meant when he said make disciples..

[marie glen]

P.s. by context surely could be within.. but if the kingdom is only within, that to me would be an extreme. So that there is the view there is no literal application of the Bible accounts, and it's all only spiritual, that's the only thing I think is misleading.
:Peace2:

And could lead to the idea visions, etc trump the Bible.

[DavidFord]

the Syriac link is no longer working?

I looked a little at http://dukhrana.com and saw only 'within you.'

Ilaria Ramelli, "Luke 17:21: 'The Kingdom of God is inside you.' The Ancient Syriac Versions in Support of the Correct Translation," Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies 12/2 (Summer 2009), pp. 259-286.
https://www.scribd.com/document/369869085/The-Kingdom-of-God-is-Inside-You-pdf
In this study I contend that in Luke 17:21 the right translation of Jesus' words is not, "God's Kingdom is among you," or "in the midst of you," as modern versions into English and other languages generally render, but "God's Kingdom is inside you."  Strong support for the latter comes from ancient Syriac versions of this and other Gospel passages, from a systematic investigation of the meaning of e)nto/j in all of Greek literature anterior to, and contemporary with, Luke, and  from a careful analysis of the expression e)nto/ j  + genitive in the New Testament and the Septuagint.  I argue that, if the evangelist had meant "The Kingdom of God is among you," he would have used, not e)nto\j  u(mw= n, but e)n me/ sw| u(mw= n, which is widely attested in this meaning in the New Testament and especially in Luke.  Moreover, the translation that I advocate and that the Syriac versions support fits better in the immediate context of an address to the Pharisees and in Luke's theology and conception of God's Kingdom, and is also corroborated by a Kingdom logion in the Gospel of Thomas and by Greek and Syriac Patristic exegesis.

In Luke 17:21 Jesus is asked when the Kingdom of God will come, and he replies:
Ou)k e1rxetai h( basilei/a tou= Qeou= meta\ parathrh/sewj, ou)de\ e)rou=sin: i)dou\ w{de, h1: e)kei=: i)dou\ ga\r h( basilei/a tou= Qeou= e)nto\j u(mw=n e)stin,
"The Kingdom of God does not come when people are spying on it, nor will they say, 'Behold, it is here,' or 'there;' for the Kingdom of God is entos humôn." 
No variant readings are attested for e)nto\j u(mw=n, an expression which modern translations generally render "among you," meaning either that the Kingdom is not in the political and military structures of the world, but only in the community of believers, or that the Kingdom is there and is represented by Jesus. 

But I shall argue that the right translation is "inside you," and that the ancient Syriac versions, together with many other elements, strongly support this interpretation.  This saying of Jesus may have been preserved originally in Aramaic, in which case e)nto/j might be a translation of וַגּ  / וגּ, meaning "interior," and, in the prepositional construct וֹ ְבּ, "inside."  It is related to the Hebrew noun וֵגּ, וַגּ, meaning "interior, inside," and to Syriac  ܓ,   ܓ meaning "the inside, the inner parts," which, as I shall show, also appears in the Peshi+ta and the Harklean version of this logion of Jesus. 

Let us see, first of all, the current translations. The Revised Standard Version and the Darby Bible both render: "For behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you"; the New Revised Standard Version, which is highly influential, likewise translates:  "For, in fact, the Kingdom of God is among you."  The Bible in Basic English is almost identical:  "For the Kingdom of God is among you." The French Bible de Jérusalem (1973) similarly runs: "Car voici que le Royaume de Dieu est au milieu de vous"; the Louis Segond version renders:  "Car voici, le royaume de Dieu est au milieu de vous"; the Spanish Bíblia en lenguaje sencillo (2000) offers an analogous translation: "Porque el reino de Dios ya está entre ustedes," which is very similar to that already provided by the old Reina-Valera version: "porque he aquí el reino de Dios está entre vosotros." The Italian CEI translation (that of the Italian Episcopal Conference, which is the standard Italian version) also has: "il Regno di Dio è in mezzo a voi."  All these modern translations fully agree in understanding the Greek as meaning: "the Kingdom of God is among you."  Modern commentators generally....

[DavidFord]

The Bible records many comments by various people, plus comments by demons and satan, and some of the comments are lies. Just because the Bible records that 'X said Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a truthful statement.

Like the example of Elisha and the children and bears? It's recorded, and Elisha was a servant of God at the time.. but was it God inspired? Or even God approves?
Logic tells me no. But atheists, and even newer believers? worry over it.. (logos/logic hand in hand)

The Bible records many actions by various people, plus actions by demons and satan, and many of the actions are sinful.  Just because the Bible records that 'X did Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a moral/ God-approved action.

E.g., the Bible records that that 'man after God's own heart,' King David, committed adultery and murder, actions that God didn't inspire and didn't approve of.
The Bible records that Peter killed Ananias and Sapphira.  I doubt God inspired Peter to kill them, and doubt God approved of Peter's killing them.
The Bible records that Elisha cursed some youths that mocked him, and got 42 youths mauled.  I doubt God inspired Elisha to have them mauled, and doubt God approved of Elisha's getting them them mauled.

Elisha's having 42 kids mauled
2 Kings 2:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" 24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Do you think Elisha having 42 kids mauled was:  applauded by God the Father?  applauded by Jesus?  applauded by the Spirit of Holiness?

Ananias and wife Sapphira
Acts 5:1-11 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/acts/5.htm
1One man whose name was Khanan-Yah, with his wife, whose name was Shappira, had sold his field. 2And he took some of its price and concealed it while his wife was aware of it, and he brought some of the money and placed it before the Apostles' feet. 3And Shimeon said to Khanan-Yah, "Why has Satan filled your heart to cheat The Spirit of Holiness and to hide some money of the proceeds of the field?" 4Was it not yours until it was sold? And after it was sold, again you had power over its proceeds. Why have you set your heart to do this thing? You have not cheated men but God." 5And when Khanan-Yah heard these words, he dropped dead and great fear came upon all those who heard. 6And young men among them arose and gathered him up, and they took him out and buried him.
7And after three hours had passed, his wife also entered, not knowing what had happened. 8Shimeon said to her, "Tell me if for these proceeds you sold the field." But she said, "Yes, for these proceeds." 9Shimeon said to her, "Because you have agreed to tempt The Spirit of THE LORD JEHOVAH, behold the feet of those who buried your husband are at the door and they will take you out." 10And at that moment she fell before their feet and died, and those young men came in and found her dead. And they took her up and brought her out and buried her beside her husband. 11And there was great fear upon the entire church among all those who heard.

Do you think Peter having Ananias and Sapphira killed was:  applauded by God the Father?  applauded by Jesus?  applauded by the Spirit of Holiness?
Are you OK with Peter's killing Ananias and Sapphira?  If 'yes':  suppose they had 2 kids, and Peter killed their father Ananias-- would you be OK with that?

Do you think Jesus is in the business of killing people?

Luke 9 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/luke/9.htm
52 And he sent messengers before his presence and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans so as to prepare for him. 53 And they did not receive him because his person was determined to go to Jerusalem. 54 And when Yaqob and Yohannan his disciples saw it, they were saying to him, "Our Lord, do you want us to speak and fire will descend from Heaven, and will consume them as Elijah also did?" 55 And he turned and he rebuked them and he said, "You do not know of which Spirit you are." 56 "For The Son of Man has not come to destroy lives but to give life." And they went to other villages.

John 10 (from Aramaic, based on Younan)
9. ENA-NA [I AM] the Gate,
and if a man should enter by me he will live
and will enter and go out and he will find pasture.
10. A thief does not come but that (he) may steal and kill and destroy.
I have come that they may have life,
and they may have something which is abundant.

John 8:44
You are from the abba [father] Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter].
And the lusts of your father you want to do,
he who from the beginning killed men.
And he does not stand in truth
because there is no truth in him.
When he speaks a falsehood,
he speaks from himself
because he (is) a liar, even its father.

[GodIsLove]

That's typically how I understand those passages and more that show things contrary to God's nature revealed through his son Jesus the Christ.

[DavidFord]

I believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical.  ....Love is an outpouring and a self sacrificing and if some are closer to Christ they only desire to pull others to where they are as well.  ....when Christ is in us it begins to cause us to want to help and love others. This I believe is only going to grow in us as we get closer to Him.

"believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical"
Attempts to make sense of some passages while looking at http://dukhrana.com appear below.

2Cor 4:16-18
For this reason, we do not grow weary;
for though our outward man wastes away/ is corrupted/ perishes/ dies/ is destroyed,
yet the inner man is renewed/ renovated day by day.
For while the trouble/ affliction/ tribulation/ oppression of the present time/ season/ period/ era [d'zbna] are momentary/ little/ very small and light,
a great limitless [d'la:  that not, + ska:  end, summation, limit] glory is prepared for us l'ailm ailmin [to the:  age ages, or:  world worlds].

That we rejoice/ gladden not (at) these seen/beholden (things),
but rather (at) these (things) that (are) not seen/beholden.
Now we judge that the seen/beholden time/season/period/era,
that (will) not (be) seen/beholden.  [IOW, we conclude/consider that the currently-seen season/era won't be seen-- it's temporary]
But we judge d'l'ailm [of to the world(s)/age(s)].  [IOW, but we instead consider/ponder the things of the upcoming world(s)/age(s)]

Romans 8:28
But/ now/ yet I know/recognize that in everything/ all things/ circumstances, Allaha helps/ aids/ works for good to those who love him, those whom he purposed/ set/ determined/ destined before that they would be called/ appealed to.

[GodIsLove]

I believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical.  ....Love is an outpouring and a self sacrificing and if some are closer to Christ they only desire to pull others to where they are as well.  ....when Christ is in us it begins to cause us to want to help and love others. This I believe is only going to grow in us as we get closer to Him.

"believe the spiritual to be MORE real than the physical"
Attempts to make sense of some passages while looking at http://dukhrana.com appear below.

2Cor 4:16-18
For this reason, we do not grow weary;
for though our outward man wastes away/ is corrupted/ perishes/ dies/ is destroyed,
yet the inner man is renewed/ renovated day by day.
For while the trouble/ affliction/ tribulation/ oppression of the present time/ season/ period/ era [d'zbna] are momentary/ little/ very small and light,
a great limitless [d'la:  that not, + ska:  end, summation, limit] glory is prepared for us l'ailm ailmin [to the:  age ages, or:  world worlds].

That we rejoice/ gladden not (at) these seen/beholden (things),
but rather (at) these (things) that (are) not seen/beholden.
Now we judge that the seen/beholden time/season/period/era,
that (will) not (be) seen/beholden.  [IOW, we conclude/consider that the currently-seen season/era won't be seen-- it's temporary]
But we judge d'l'ailm [of to the world(s)/age(s)].  [IOW, but we instead consider/ponder the things of the upcoming world(s)/age(s)]

Romans 8:28
But/ now/ yet I know/recognize that in everything/ all things/ circumstances, Allaha helps/ aids/ works for good to those who love him, those whom he purposed/ set/ determined/ destined before that they would be called/ appealed to.

:thumbsup:

[marie glen]

The reality being we are seated in heavenly places with Him.. :thumbsup: :cloud9:

[CST]

Again, you're missing the point. That dialogue, lie or not, it what the Bible reported and has to be treated as such.

"That dialogue... has to be treated as" what, exactly?  (truth?  an entity's comment reported by the Bible?)
The Bible records many comments by various people, plus comments by demons and satan, and some of the comments are lies. Just because the Bible records that 'X said Y' doesn't necessarily mean that Y is a truthful statement.

I can't see anything in what the demon says that could be a lie or would be meaningful if it was. If the demon says they know Paul and they don't it might cause us to question the veracity of Paul as an apostle and I don't think anyone expects it to be read that way.

Amen, GodIsLove :thumbsup: I am only a little concerned with too much metaphor. Only little concerned because the whole world is smothered in untruth, but Jesus is still Lord. And because of the five words so poorly translated to read hell, metaphor is quite big in some UR/CU circles, which I think when too prevalent gives a bad name to ur. If the literal straight forward could just be included.. so it can make sense to hearers. I've read u.r. belief referred to, quite a few times, as gobbly gook or such but if the dialog included more scripture and more down to earth understanding, to go along with, the metaphor or spiritual application of everything.. I try not to get too zealous and to be courteous, but  :dontknow: :gsmile:

Well, in Quantum Physics there is something called entanglement, and basically it means that if I do something, it affects things around me, around the world, and even the other side of the universe. This happens even faster than the speed of light. Maybe you could say the speed of thought.

I simply am concerned about too much metaphor, as a lot of it I think comes close to disagreeing with the straight out reading.

I know things happen within. I guess I've developed a kind of opinion (or observation?) as traveling to different forums that lots of folks because of the 5 poorly translated words into hell, they now distrust the Bible. Which I think is bound to lead to a loosing of the truth.. As the heart is deceitful so if truth becomes something we find in ourself..

Of course it does complicate things that the Holy Spirit guides us and of course it's a within and inner thing, lol.

I think that's why the (tip? of the) sword of truth is what it takes to separate true thread from untrue thread. The world is so flooded with ideas and theory. And people seeking..

"Law of entanglement" :thumbsup: & everything has the tendency to grow. If we know the word - "thy word is truth" - we can prune the buds of untruth that sprout within us.

Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work. 

[MusicLover123]

John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work.

Well, I think in a literal sense, Jesus is the Word of God, as He is the Spokesman of the Father. Jesus speaks the words of the Father. Scripture is fulfilled in a literal way too. One example? Science. And, other prophesies that are being fulfilled literally too. It is only past generations that had no faith and expectation that Scripture prophesies would be fulfilled in a literal way, that they took everything super Spiritually that did not apply to reality.

We are shown plainly what it means by the Holy Spirit, not by what someone else says what it means. Sure, God may use someone to show us an aspect of it, but it is ultimately through revelation that we know.

[marie glen]

Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work. 

The rapture is based on the word harpazo/catching away.. Which "catching away" occurs (imo) when Jesus returns.. "the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive, remain", [the words, elsewhere being "immediately after the tribulation/troubles of that day.." Mt 24] .."will meet Him at His coming" 1 Thess 4 - "when He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8

Is His coming and 2nd advent also metaphor? What about His first coming? The creation account? The virgin birth?

I'm just curious.. :Peace2:


I believe the Holy Spirit lightens and reveals, but I also believe we can read and understand some by the reasoning ability God has endowed us with. Like if I read Jesus walked down the road.. I can understand that.. and I don't need to wait for a hidden meaning, there may or may not be a hidden meaning.. I think a believer could possibly get so caught up in hidden meanings and secret knowledge, they can't see the forest for the trees.. (I believe everything under the sun can potentially become an extreme.)

[DavidFord]

The rapture is based on the word harpazo/catching away.. Which "catching away" occurs (imo) when Jesus returns.. "the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive, remain", [the words, elsewhere being "immediately after the tribulation/troubles of that day.." Mt 24] .."will meet Him at His coming" 1 Thess 4 - "when He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8
Is His coming and 2nd advent also metaphor? What about His first coming? The creation account? The virgin birth?

I've not researched the matter, but have heard that the rapture idea is only about 200 years old.
Jesus lived on earth for 33 years.  It wouldn't surprise me if Jesus returned in A.D. 70-- I think it's a distinct possibility he did return then.  If someone thinks God doesn't exist, then it'd be easy for that person to say the creation account is metaphorical.  If someone thinks miracles don't occur, then he might chalk the virgin birth account up to metaphor or bogusness.

[MusicLover123]

Speaking of the rapture, there won't be a rapture. I think there will be a "catching up in the air." The people who believe in the rapture have a wrong view of suffering, etc. They think that all suffering is there because God somehow hates everyone, and His anger is gonna blow up. The real purpose of suffering is to humble us. Do I know ultimately why? No, I see through the mirror darkly. The best thing I can do is to trust in Him, and know that He is in control, and knows what He is doing.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 

Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us; 
Rom 8:19  for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; 
Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject—not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it —in hope, 
Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; 
Rom 8:22  for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now. 

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Judgement teaches righteousness, it is used to correct someone, and not out of hatred. This false idea of God is why so many live in fear of God, and not truly loving Him.

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Total KJV occurrences: 13

A couple other verses with "caught up"

2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 

I see the other verses, mentioning when someone leaves, like when the Bride goes to meet Jesus, they always return to where they came from. So in this case, once those people are caught up, they're coming back down.

No one has received their Spiritual Body yet, and certainly not in 70AD. I see the manifestation of the Sons of God, revealing Christ to the world, and when the world learns righteousness.

[GodIsLove]

The rapture is based on the word harpazo/catching away.. Which "catching away" occurs (imo) when Jesus returns.. "the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive, remain", [the words, elsewhere being "immediately after the tribulation/troubles of that day.." Mt 24] .."will meet Him at His coming" 1 Thess 4 - "when He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8
Is His coming and 2nd advent also metaphor? What about His first coming? The creation account? The virgin birth?

I've not researched the matter, but have heard that the rapture idea is only about 200 years old.
Jesus lived on earth for 33 years.  It wouldn't surprise me if Jesus returned in A.D. 70-- I think it's a distinct possibility he did return then.  If someone thinks God doesn't exist, then it'd be easy for that person to say the creation account is metaphorical.  If someone thinks miracles don't occur, then he might chalk the virgin birth account up to metaphor or bogusness.

Yes when I researched the rapture I found it to be a new idea and not biblical.

I also think Jesus could have returned AD 70.

I have heard Christians who believe in an old earth to believe that Adam and Eve were the first primates to be endowed with human qualities. And once I had the thought that the punishments of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil are very similar to the "consequences" of us having larger brains: women do suffer more during childbearing compared to other animals because of our large head size compared to their pelvis. And there are a lot of ties to agriculture and brain development and this was mentioned as another consequence:

Genesis 3

16To the woman he said,

"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

I read that the creation account is not meant to be scientific but instead is meant to show that God created all things and they were good (in contrast to other creation myths of multiple Gods and other stories of how the world came to be via negative means)...and it shows generally how humankind fell from grace and how we are continuing to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil because both are mixed in this plane of existence, whereas in spiritual realms like is attracted to like and there is a separation of light and darkness.

Genesis 1:4 NIV
God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

So I don't see taking the creation account as a story containing spiritual truths but as not meant to be scientific in nature as a problem.

[GodIsLove]

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140612114310-117953348-second-coming-of-christ-misunderstood

Interesting article

[marie glen]

If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

[marie glen]

I think it's important to understand the 2nd coming and the millennium (2nd advent of Jesus?) whether past? present? or future?

I read too that what's called the rapture (theory) came about approximately 200 years ago or so.. The same movement, I believe, ended up with the Scofield Reference Bible and the idea of Revelation belonging in a box called 7 years I believe there is a 7 years, but not the way it's taught (key word taught). And the teaching of what's called a 7 year tribulation, which teachers believe is supported by scripture.

The only way to understand these things of course is to pray, and to yield.

Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, were of course fulfilled in 70 a.d. with the question being, I assume, is does it (and other prophecy?) have parallel fulfillment, one being local and immediate, and one being broad and climactic or 'end time' as they say (as part of an 'ending' of the story?)

And another question, I think, is, does it matter?
   :Peace2:

[CST]

John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work.

Well, I think in a literal sense, Jesus is the Word of God, as He is the Spokesman of the Father. Jesus speaks the words of the Father. Scripture is fulfilled in a literal way too. One example? Science. And, other prophesies that are being fulfilled literally too. It is only past generations that had no faith and expectation that Scripture prophesies would be fulfilled in a literal way, that they took everything super Spiritually that did not apply to reality.

We are shown plainly what it means by the Holy Spirit, not by what someone else says what it means. Sure, God may use someone to show us an aspect of it, but it is ultimately through revelation that we know.

Hmm, I suggest that if you think Jesus is the 'Word of God' in any literal sense it goes to explain a lot because it suggests that you don't know what it means to say that something is literal compared to allegorical.

Jesus, according to what we believe was born as a human around 0AD and lived on Earth in ancient Israel for about three decades during this time He was literally human, that is to say he was an actual human being who interacted with other human beings and had to do all the things other human beings have to do including many of the things we find unpalatable and would rather we didn't have to do. He spoke to people about God and what He said can be called the Word of God. But He, Himself is not literally the Word of God because He's not the sound wave that conveys the words from tongue to ear or the ink that records the words on the page or the pixels that display it on a computer screen.

Unless you want to go so far as to point out He's also every atom in the sun and every molecule in our blood at which point the concept of the literal and the allegorical becomes a bit meaningless. Jesus is the Word of God but only if you recognize that's a very expanded metaphor.

But yes we are, in theory, we are shown what it means by the Holy Spirit but some people think they are shown that it says almost everyone will go to Hell for all of endless time so one person's 'shown by the Holy Spirit' is someone else's 'heresy'.

Calling Jesus 'the Word of God' is a metaphor. Calling the Bible 'the Word of God is an extension of the same metaphor. The Bible teaches clearly the Jesus teaches in metaphor (parable) when He's incarnate. Why would 'the Word of God' suddenly stop teaching is metaphor when it comes to us in the Bible.

A lot of Christians do this, the rapture is an invention in the same vein. The idea that Christians these days can just sidestep all the challenges the Christians who came before us had to face. He spoke to them in parable and explained it later if they asked, why should the Bible not be the same for us? What makes us special? That's how discernment work. 

The rapture is based on the word harpazo/catching away.. Which "catching away" occurs (imo) when Jesus returns.. "the dead in Christ rise first then those who are alive, remain", [the words, elsewhere being "immediately after the tribulation/troubles of that day.." Mt 24] .."will meet Him at His coming" 1 Thess 4 - "when He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8

Is His coming and 2nd advent also metaphor? What about His first coming? The creation account? The virgin birth?

I'm just curious.. :Peace2:


I believe the Holy Spirit lightens and reveals, but I also believe we can read and understand some by the reasoning ability God has endowed us with. Like if I read Jesus walked down the road.. I can understand that.. and I don't need to wait for a hidden meaning, there may or may not be a hidden meaning.. I think a believer could possibly get so caught up in hidden meanings and secret knowledge, they can't see the forest for the trees.. (I believe everything under the sun can potentially become an extreme.)

Why some Christians came to believe incorrectly in the rapture isn't the point at the moment, the point is they do believe in it and they do so because they're cowards. They think, probably correctly, that kif the Beast from the Sea rocked up they would be unable to resist it like the 144 000 but they are good and righteous so God will rapture them away before they have to make the choice to give their lives, literally, for God which they don't feel well to do.

MusicLover's observation is also correct of this, they hate sin and sinners they think God hates sin and sinners and believe that only sinful sinner deserve to suffer such. The God they believe in is their ally, he would never see them, his innocent servants, suffer unjustly. The fact God's greatest and most innocent servant suffered and for them suggest thqat God doesn't protect people like that never crosses their mind.

Ok, I believe Jesus advent is literal and believe His second coming is also a literal event but may be described allegorically in the Bible. I believe in the virgin birth, I tend not to doubt records of God's action in the world unless I feel they're very difficult.

I think the creation is allegorical but their may be spiritual plains on which it somehow occurred but it can't be historical as it contradicts science.

Your use of God given reason is bizarre, your basically saying that you can understand the Bible because you have a God-given capacity for language and speak English and can understand the Bible if it is written in English (or any other language you speak) but remember, the ET and ED crowds speak English too. They read the same Bibles and come to different conclusions, they then translate those Bibles according to their own conclusions. They may even define words according to those conclusions. Remember we a taught God confused our languages and all the languages we have are limited in their capacity to explain and describe things, when we try to describe them they become more problematic. To say you understand the words something doesn't mean anything, Christs enemies could understand you words of the parables He spoke but they still couldn't understand what He was saying that's the whole point.

Your belief that the whole Bible is a literal, historical record except where it clearly isn't is a subjective choice, an act of faith on your part if you like, it's not an objective fact. But I agree you can try to discern hidden meaning to the point it become meaningless, indeed to the point it becomes idolatry because it distracts you from God.

Speaking of the rapture, there won't be a rapture. I think there will be a "catching up in the air." The people who believe in the rapture have a wrong view of suffering, etc. They think that all suffering is there because God somehow hates everyone, and His anger is gonna blow up. The real purpose of suffering is to humble us. Do I know ultimately why? No, I see through the mirror darkly. The best thing I can do is to trust in Him, and know that He is in control, and knows what He is doing.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

When I read that passage I can't help thinking: 'And what of those who don't love God (and so, presumably, aren't called according to His purpose) which very obviously exist. I'm not sure we can claim all things work together for good for them, the Bible doesn't support that.

If human's progressed from primates, doesn't that mean death existed before Adam and Eve's disobedience.. and is not the wages or result of sin?

Only if you think of 'death' merely as 'dropping dead' at the end of life (whenever that occurs) the Bible and human attitudes and experience present death as being much more complicated than that. Does the state of being a Christian is a paradox, the end of Christain belief is death and we cannot complete our Christian sojourn unless we die. But, of course, we still don't want to die and consider it hugely tragic when people die. Death is very complicated to us, I doubt it is so to the 'lower' animals.

I think it's important to understand the 2nd coming and the millennium (2nd advent of Jesus?) whether past? present? or future?

I read too that what's called the rapture (theory) came about approximately 200 years ago or so.. The same movement, I believe, ended up with the Scofield Reference Bible and the idea of Revelation belonging in a box called 7 years I believe there is a 7 years, but not the way it's taught (key word taught). And the teaching of what's called a 7 year tribulation, which teachers believe is supported by scripture.

The only way to understand these things of course is to pray, and to yield.

Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, were of course fulfilled in 70 a.d. with the question being, I assume, is does it (and other prophecy?) have parallel fulfillment, one being local and immediate, and one being broad and climactic or 'end time' as they say (as part of an 'ending' of the story?)

And another question, I think, is, does it matter?
   :Peace2:

Since we're probably still required to 'stay awake', yes it matters.