Why do people like Hitler deserve to be saved?

[Patinak]

We like to think we could never sink to certain levels, but I think it all depends upon the will (and intervention) of our Father.. that some are allowed to sink way down in those levels.. where, without intervention, sooner or later, I believe all would descend (if they lived long enough that is).

That's kind of hard for us to accept, that without Jesus/salvation we could sink that low.. But it is in the nature for all things to move and progress.. and without God's saving hand there's only one direction, ultimately, to go.

"There but for the grace of God ..."

[Lazarus Short]

Descend, maybe, but never so far as Hell.  Hell, no.  :eek:

[StevenL]

Recently had a fellow strain at the bit not to kill me because I dared suggest that ALL would be reconciled to Him, on earth and in the heavens. He was OUTRAGED at the thought that the Adversary would be reconciled to God. The more I continued to just stick to quoting the plain Scripture, the madder he got. So, does what or who we call Satan 'deserve' to be saved? Hitler? Me? I suppose we all 'deserve' to be saved because we are creatures of God the Father and of Yeshua, the Son, totally subject to his creative efforts and his ultimate intentions. I didn't choose to be plopped here in this strange realm, made subject to futility so that I WOULD fall short of the Glory of God, condemned to death, and then reconciled. The Adversary was created to do exactly what he did, he sinned from the beginning. Hitler fulfilled God's will for his life even though it's a bitter thing to realize. God works everything according to the counsel of HIS own will. And His thoughts are NOT our thoughts. It took me a long time to realize that I had been following, or desperately trying to follow, a 'god' created by the reasonings and vain philosophies of religious men/women. What a relief to discover that God really was a loving Creator who was going to ultimately use this evil He created for the good of the whole creation and to bring forth Children. He never had any intention of torturing anything or anybody in fire forever. Even Hitler.

[Jock]

stevent. I enjoyed your post and understand what that was like! I went through the same thing recently, with a Jehovah's witness. He is actually a friend of mine. I was pointing out that the greek for, forever, is "ages or ages of the ages. The JW's don't believe in hell but when I told him some other things, he just about blew his stack!
He  called later to apologise, which was cool. Not easy to persuade a JW. whew!


Jock  :Peace2:

[marie glen]

Yes it seems so crazy, doesn't it? Seems like it would be good news to anyone and everyone!

But above all, to me, it seems so strange that most can't see how God, surely, has done all things in just the way He has with full intent, in order to bring about the best 'end' result, so many seem to think this whole thing - life as we presently know it, is somehow some sort of mistake God made.. or something occurred which took Him by surprise. (Haha! As if!!) I'm sure when He (chose to) create rational creatures, He absolutely knew that along with that sooner or later comes the ability to make choices..

Indeed, He knows all things. Knows the end from the beginning. I don't like to hear folks blame Him for the world's evil, even though I know he engineered it, knowing, of course, full well, thinking ability brought about a whole new world/realm or tree(!) of possibilities. All I can try to say to folks who blame Him for the evil people do.. which He allows to happen and do.. is what was His other option? No rational creatures? Ever? I learned these things 17 or so years ago when my son asked me why was the tree of good and evil in the garden? And, isn't it great we get to be an ant farm? Short answer after prayer (because I was noT satisfied with my answer) was we're not an ant farm, that's the whole 'problem'. Most folks don't understand any of that.. well nonbelievers understand it but believers, not so much.

Praise the Lord! UR puts the whole puzzle of life together.  The pieces all fall into place. Lots of folks don't care if it doesn't make sense.. but I think in some hearts has been put the deep desire to have the answers.. not so much for self, but to be able to answer those difficult questions if asked.. Even if they can't hear the answer! :laughing7: yet.. :gsmile:

[marie glen]

Patinak -

"But for the grace of God, go I"

Amen!! It's what so many believers just don't get.. and I'm not thinking of Hitler's or the like.. but so many believers, to me, seem to have a very cold attitude about those who are not following the Lord.. they say hate the sin but love the sinner.. but it seldom comes across that way.. I'm not trying to find fault, I just find it to be yet another error heavily laid upon this poor planet.

[jugghead]

Through all the posts that are being put up, we have all come to realize that the truth will always reveal the hearts of men,

I remember speaking to another truck driver about all being saved as someone who believed in ET came up to start talking to us, as he spoke, I just kept repeating that "God is Love", he just became more angry and it finally burst out of his mouth ..... "God is not Love" ..... I have always hoped that he actually heard the words that came out of his mouth and the Lord showed him who he had become.

If it was not for the existence of evil, there is no way we could ever understand, let alone appreciate what He has done for us. In other words ..... we could never love Him the way He loves us if not for the existence of evil. It is just a tool for His ..... and our ..... good and benefit.

Of course, that is just my opinion (which I know others share)

[marie glen]

I remember speaking to another truck driver...

My hubby's a truck driver.. though local for many years now, thank Goodness! ..Loved your post, and story!! (Wow. Imagine!) :gsmile:

[Ross]

Interesting when looking at  the definition of love in 1 Cor 13; 
also being told about God's love exceeding our earthly dads' love;
Yet the bondage of this age seems to work on a definition of God saying;
                                                                                                        " Love Me, or go to hell."
A threatening, demanding love, not a real love.
In the physical, we can do all we like to rebel; even change our name- yet the lineage will not be altered.
The spiritual exceeds the physical;  the very point Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15 when chatting about Christ being the first of the new spiritual essence we are to become.
Hitler, the ET' ers and alike will be learning that in the coming ages; there will be more dramatic stuff happening and changes that cannot be ignored any longer.

[eaglesway]

At first I heard "bad people go to hell".

Then I heard everyone who rejected Jesus would go to hell forever.

Then I heard that everyone who never heard of Him would join the bad people and the rebelious in hell.

Then I heard that every body who doesnt believe everything thing a certain way would go to hell to.

Then I heard everyone who didnt follow Him in perfection would also go to hell.

Then I said.

"God loses and the saints lose too. Because we are here to be ministers of reconciliation- but even most of us may go to hell, so it looks to me like the gates of hell will prevail against us, and Jesus was wrong. Sure am glad I have all these holy people to straighten me out about God's impotence and His Son's naivete."

;o)

[GodIsLove]

At first I heard "bad people go to hell".

Then I heard everyone who rejected Jesus would go to hell forever.

Then I heard that everyone who never heard of Him would join the bad people and the rebelious in hell.

Then I heard that every body who doesnt believe everything thing a certain way would go to hell to.

Then I heard everyone who didnt follow Him in perfection would also go to hell.

Then I said.

"God loses and the saints lose too. Because we are here to be ministers of reconciliation- but even most of us may go to hell, so it looks to me like the gates of hell will prevail against us, and Jesus was wrong. Sure am glad I have all these holy people to straighten me out about God's impotence and His Son's naivete."

;o)

:laughing7:   Good post!

[Dandelion]

I think that we should remember, too, that we are made in the image and likeness of
God; that He formed us in our mother's womb; that He is the potter and we are the clay.

He put goodness and love into each and every one of us, and he will not be through with us, until the Light of His great and unfailing Love, captivates each and every heart and soul. He will work with us, as the potter, until all can see His image and likeness, in every person. It is in there.....He put it there.....and one day, it will be evident for all to see.

The veils of this world will no longer hide it or prevent it from shining.....the seed of Himself that was embedded in us all, will come to see, accept, and praise His greatness and recognize Him as their God.

We will all be given our birthright; our destiny; our reason for being created....to know, love, and serve our God.

So, yes, even Hitler and whoever else we can imagine.......

D.

[marie glen]

..this reminds me of the two goats.. I'm a little vague on it.. but wasn't there two goats sacrificed one and the other one is let loose.. Two scapegoats.. the one a type of Jesus who was sacrificed/paid the price.. and the other.. a type of the adversary.. which all hitlers are a type of? what with doing the deeds of the murderer from the beginning/father of lies.. the creator wearing more of the 'blame' having engineered things just as He did in order to bring about evil/imperfection, an unavoidable journey and lesson (if angel and man are to be rational creatures that is?)

[TheJason]

Fact of the matter is thousands, maybe more, Hitlers exist.  They just haven't come into full bloom.  Anyway, the fruit of their hate is simply brainwashing.  But I think this stuff can be purged via eternity.

[darryl]

Recently had a fellow strain at the bit not to kill me because I dared suggest that ALL would be reconciled to Him, on earth and in the heavens. He was OUTRAGED at the thought that the Adversary would be reconciled to God. The more I continued to just stick to quoting the plain Scripture, the madder he got. So, does what or who we call Satan 'deserve' to be saved? Hitler? Me? I suppose we all 'deserve' to be saved because we are creatures of God the Father and of Yeshua, the Son, totally subject to his creative efforts and his ultimate intentions. I didn't choose to be plopped here in this strange realm, made subject to futility so that I WOULD fall short of the Glory of God, condemned to death, and then reconciled. The Adversary was created to do exactly what he did, he sinned from the beginning. Hitler fulfilled God's will for his life even though it's a bitter thing to realize. God works everything according to the counsel of HIS own will. And His thoughts are NOT our thoughts. It took me a long time to realize that I had been following, or desperately trying to follow, a 'god' created by the reasonings and vain philosophies of religious men/women. What a relief to discover that God really was a loving Creator who was going to ultimately use this evil He created for the good of the whole creation and to bring forth Children. He never had any intention of torturing anything or anybody in fire forever. Even Hitler.

true...God is sovereign and He is in control !....even Hitler and those like him have their part to play, as odious evil and repugnant Hitler's deeds were.

[MusicLover123]

Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.

[marie glen]

Recently had a fellow strain at the bit not to kill me because I dared suggest that ALL would be reconciled to Him, on earth and in the heavens. He was OUTRAGED at the thought that the Adversary would be reconciled to God. The more I continued to just stick to quoting the plain Scripture, the madder he got. So, does what or who we call Satan 'deserve' to be saved? Hitler? Me? I suppose we all 'deserve' to be saved because we are creatures of God the Father and of Yeshua, the Son, totally subject to his creative efforts and his ultimate intentions. I didn't choose to be plopped here in this strange realm, made subject to futility so that I WOULD fall short of the Glory of God, condemned to death, and then reconciled. The Adversary was created to do exactly what he did, he sinned from the beginning. Hitler fulfilled God's will for his life even though it's a bitter thing to realize. God works everything according to the counsel of HIS own will. And His thoughts are NOT our thoughts. It took me a long time to realize that I had been following, or desperately trying to follow, a 'god' created by the reasonings and vain philosophies of religious men/women. What a relief to discover that God really was a loving Creator who was going to ultimately use this evil He created for the good of the whole creation and to bring forth Children. He never had any intention of torturing anything or anybody in fire forever. Even Hitler.

true...God is sovereign and He is in control !....even Hitler and those like him have their part to play, as odious evil and repugnant Hitler's deeds were.

Amen! God is so wise! And so clever!! He engineered things so all would take this (surely?) unavoidable journey of learning good from evil all together at once. Unavoidable, surely, as that's what's happening.. What God is doing.

One day I was sitting around musing upon the Lord and his word.. and a thought came strongly to mind, and I'll write it just as i 'heard' it - "how would you create an unbreakable perfect paradise?" And quick on the heels of it was "and have in it rational creatures?"

But one of the most important things I ever learned is our Father "is perfect". Perfect makes no mistakes.. can lose nothing. And (surely?) the 'end' result of all this can only be the best one possible.

I wonder, is there a verse that says Satan was the opposer from the beginning of his creation? "A murderer from the beginning.. Does that mean beginning of the world.. beginning of his fall..? or beginning of his very being and creation.. Well, either way, we can be sure our heavenly Father has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the best..

How awesome God alone is in charge of when every single being repents and the veil is removed. And is indeed in charge of every life. All His doing. I also believe, that coming naturally with thinking ability/rationality, is the ability to make choices. And God in His wisdom and ability, is letting - to a degree - things run their course. Like imperfection - as opposed to His being perfection and life (itself) - And in each life His hand blocks or allows what course that imperfection will be allowed to take. That this allowing of imperfection  (sin) and (limited) choice to run its course, is a powerful (powerful) drama and experience teaching all that we simply cannot 'go our own way' etc. "I set before thee this day life and death".

That God would condemn anyone, especially 'forever' before they have all the facts quite clearly understood.. is totally absurd. I believe the spiritual lake of fire is the burning and torturous remorse one feels at conversion - weeping.. gnashing of teeth.. Just imagine coming to your senses and you had been one like Hitler or any number of depots, etc. Large and small. But in a truth proving drama of letting sin/evil/mperfectio run its course, surely you have to let/allow even the greatest of evils to occur.. As how else to totally prove the utter horror of any speck of anti-God/anti-Good-ness / any speck of imperfection/disobedience can lead to the greatest evil. (That's why I believe the abyss/bottomless pit of Rev chapter nine is in the wayward heart.. or is imperfection as that bottomless pit of potential.. And everyone "in heaven and earth" is learning that. And I believe Judgement Day is typified by the fall holy day of Day of Atonement, and will be a great 'day' (500 years?) of intense review of all history.. Writing/engraving His law - Jesus/Godliness through Jesus, the forever preeminent One - deeply upon the heart, mind and psyche of all. [Kind of a rambling rant? I was so busy the last day and a half.. no bible talk.. kind of an explosion i guess :mblush:
:Peace2:

Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.

  :mshock: ...You are totally right!!

[TheJason]

Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.

I think sin expresses itself in different ways - but all bad.

[MusicLover123]

Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.

I think sin expresses itself in different ways - but all bad.

I agree. Should have made that clear too, lol.

[MusicLover123]

But, even more than that, to meditate on the Love of God. That is why He does all of these things! And, only when He leads us to these Truths, can we only begin to fathom how much that really is. Even with all the saints, the only thing we can do is be able to comprehend how much that really is. We won't be able to see it all at once in the flesh, only as much as the scales fall from our eyes.

Even understanding how much He suffered for us. Not only through His suffering, but also in His death and Resurrection. He was willing to lower Himself, for His own creation, to die for us.

Even the amount He suffered for us when He birthed wisdom (Proverbs 8:24 - Hint: look at Strong's where it says brought forth, and all this chapter too. It also says "before the depths," take note of that. And, on this, In Genesis 1 it can read "In wisdom God created the Heavens and the earth." As wisdom is the principle thing(Proverbs 4:7) and in Genesis 1:1 beginning from Strong's has principle for one of the words.)

This probably deviates from posts above, but felt I should make mention of it.

[marie glen]

Interesting... "wisdom is the principal thing" And  "Genesis" - "beginning, chiefest, firstfruits, part, time, principal thing" [http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7225.htm]

Goes along with the thought Logos, root word of logic?  :Chinscratch: wisdom, the principal thing...

[darryl]

That God would condemn anyone, especially 'forever' before they have all the facts quite clearly understood.. is totally absurd. I believe the spiritual lake of fire is the burning and torturous remorse one feels at conversion - weeping.. gnashing of teeth.. Just imagine coming to your senses and you had been one like Hitler or any number of depots, etc. Large and small. But in a truth proving drama of letting sin/evil/mperfectio run its course, surely you have to let/allow even the greatest of evils to occur.. As how else to totally prove the utter horror of any speck of anti-God/anti-Good-ness / any speck of imperfection/disobedience can lead to the greatest evil. (That's why I believe the abyss/bottomless pit of Rev chapter nine is in the wayward heart.. or is imperfection as that bottomless pit of potential.. And everyone "in heaven and earth" is learning that. And I believe Judgement Day is typified by the fall holy day of Day of Atonement, and will be a great 'day' (500 years?) of intense review of all history.. Writing/engraving His law - Jesus/Godliness through Jesus, the forever preeminent One - deeply upon the heart, mind and psyche of all.

so true !  :iagree: :dsunny:

[darryl]

Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.

I think the point is being missed here...it really doesn't matter if I would be (or even  am) just like Hitler or if I am an angel compared to him, Hitler will ultimately be reconciled to God through Christ either way, anyway.Why ?...because it's not up to how evil or good me or Hitler are, it's up to God's love and God loves Hitler and Christ died for him just like Christ died for me and you.
But still,you ask what makes me different to Hitler ?...well, I'd like to think, no matter what,  I'd never order the extermination of entire people groups, men (young and old) women (young and old) , children, babies, infants eg, Jews, Gypsies etc not to mention the euthanasia of the old and sick ....I find it hard to even harm an insect let alone a human being, especially a child.....you know, I don't think we ought to trivialize what Hitler and the Nazis did,,,I visited Dachau and I felt sick at the horrors that occurred there...I KNOW there's stuff I could never do i.e. murder a beautiful little 5 year old girl,shoot her in the head as some of the SS officers did to Jewish infants.....but still, the Bible says ALL will be saved and that includes Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc etc...so my personal feelings about Hitler, ultimately, do not come into the matter...it's what the New Testament says, not my personal hatred of Nazi actions/ beliefs...that being said, maybe, just maybe, if we had Hitlers psyche, circumstances, experiences,influences etc we too may have ended up a callous psychotic, mass murdering megalomaniac with no conscience, just like him....who knows ?...but I certainly hope not and I don't believe I would because of my sensitive conscience and sense of empathy for others (and I don't mean to sound smug or self righteous, I certainly have my faults)..anyway, again, my personal feelings don't come into it...its what the Bible says that counts....and again, the Bible promises ALL will ultimately be reconciled to God, including the likes of Hitler.

[MusicLover123]

Oh, I do believe that too, Darryl. I was more thinking of these 3 verses:

1 Corinthians 15:10

10and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that [is] towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that [is] with me

Phillipians 2:13
13for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure

Ephesians 2:8-10
8for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you — of God the gift,
9not of works, that no one may boast;
10for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

I am what I am because of the Grace of God. What is Grace? One of Strong's definitions is "Divine influence upon the heart!"

Now, Grace is not a gift by itself, but you gotta do something with it, right?

Ray mentioned in his study it is like me gifting you an exercise bike. Now, would you just leave it in the back collecting dust? Hopefully not. Instead, you have to use it! Not of your own works, but of Christ in you!

I was also thinking that money is a good example. You are expected to use this gift, are you not?

This happens through faith(verb) as well. It is basically the channel used for grace to act by/through. These are all One though. Sure, there are some small differences, but it is all One, just as His Word is One, just as Jesus and the Father are One, and just as God and us(body of Christ) are One.

[MusicLover123]

Here is that study from Ray I referenced. I knew there was a reason I felt to watch it again!

https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU