This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
We are all quilty of murder.
Deserve?
What they deserve is what they get...........I'd even help in giving it to them.
In the end God will show mercy. Who deserves it?
Focus on the life that we have now. The future will take care of itself. Deal with law breakers like Hitler according to the law..........God have mercy on his soul, but mankind can inflict justice as we see fit.
It is our responsibility.
To hell with Hitler. :2c:(the universalist type of course)
Can you still love the horrible? God can, so we can. We don't have to be terrorized by them though. We don't have to support their sin.
Deserve has nothing to do with it.
Every single person, including those on this forum, and myself have done things needing of forgiveness. We are no different from Hitler in that respect. May God have mercy on me and Hitler both, and he will.
The Lord[Jehovah] God made each individual as He willed. We are not given to understand all that our Creator has put forth, yet we must accept that He had reason, and I for one will not question His reason. Let him, who ever he maybe, cast the first stone, my arm and hand is idle by my side. Why?
We all sit as brothers and sisters, silent staring into the camp fire, our stories told, be they true or false, our beliefs spoken and held, still a truth rings true and loud screaming with humble pride....HE IS RISEN!
ALL will be saved and brought home to the Father and there will be joy. :dsunny:
are you just trolling? :punish:
Add to your question will the adversary [satan] be saved? Only one correct answer.....yes. Unless the meaning of the word ALL means almost. Besides I, personally, imo believe your choice of the word deserve is wrong, I certainly don't believe "i deserve" to be saved, still i praise the Lord that He called. :dsunny:
Luke 4;31-37...............in the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon,an evil spirit.
He cried out at the top of his voice. Ha! what do you want with us,Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy
us! I know who you are..the Holy one of God!
Be quiet! Jesus said sternly! Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without
injuring him.
All the people were amazed and said to each other, 'What is this teaching?' With authority and power he gives
orders to evil spirits and they come out! And the news about Him spread throughout the surrounding area.
I will put enmity between the serpents seed and the seed of the woman.....the serpent shall bruise his
heel..and He shall crush the serpents head.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AMRe: Why do people like Hitler deserve to be saved?
What about his victims. Why do those "unbelieving" Holocaust victims deserve the same eternal fate as Hitler?
:eek:
Remember how *ticked* (to put it nicely) Jonah was with God who dared to forgive? Hmmm. Interesting.
...and the elder son also when the prodigal come home..and the Pharisee's and sadducees and religious leaders
in Christ day on earth. Seem's Father knew 'some' would take issue with His GRACE/forgiveness......
it is a 'good' thing that He bound up all men togather so no-one could boast in his flesh,eh?
His blanket judgements[all men in corrupt image,all raised in Christ] put that issue to rest,imo
Quote from: sheila on March 03, 2014, 06:40:57 PM
...and the elder son also when the prodigal come home..and the Pharisee's and sadducees and religious leaders
in Christ day on earth. Seem's Father knew 'some' would take issue with His GRACE/forgiveness......
it is a 'good' thing that He bound up all men togather so no-one could boast in his flesh,eh?
His blanket judgements[all men in corrupt image,all raised in Christ] put that issue to rest,imo
:thumbsup:
I think also of those wanting to call fire down from heaven and destroy /burn those and Jesus told them they did not know what manner of Spirit they were of
sons of thunder , I believe it was of the old law and spirit and nature ,Jesus come to save mens lives and make all things new and holy and clean for a place for Father 'Spirit and Word to dwell in the hearts of men , new wine and wineskins from the newly crushed grapes , it was the appointed time for grace covering by Love , they didnt know Jesus very well at that time , having still the old wine that makes one drunk not the eye for an eye mentality of law , but Love and pray and do good to your enemies , not destroy them because they refuse to listen to you . the time of reconciling all things to the Living God of both the dead and living was stated by Jesus Christ forming His Body , the Son of man has no where to lay His head ! AUTHORITY ! RULE power over
Quote from: Tapioca on March 03, 2014, 06:31:45 PM
Remember how *ticked* (to put it nicely) Jonah was with God who dared to forgive? Hmmm. Interesting.
:thumbsup:
Avoiding your purpose till you surrender , has many trials of itself to contend with , He was so busy trying to save his own skin at that point it seems :eek:
I guess he was the elder brother's elder brother.. :laugh:
:laugh: ........
Some ETers make the argument that since we were made in God's image that we are exact reflections of Him. The bible shows that we are not & that He is above us in every way.
He tells us to show mercy, with no conditions. He doesn't give a guideline to show mercy to certain sins & not others. He just says to love our neighbors & enemies. We aren't just in how we want to punish people, the only just one is God. He knows how to punish perectly!
I love the reference to Jonah and the prodigal sons older brother.
God's truly given us a great gift in His unfailing plan, un-conditional love & forgiveness. :dsunny:
The way I see it no one deserves a single iota of God's grace. He has drawn us by His forgiveness, We hav not drawn Him by our righteousness. Forgiveness is the open door thru which grace produces righteousness in the forgiven.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2014, 01:59:42 AM
The way I see it no one deserves a single iota of God's grace. He has drawn us by His forgiveness, We hav not drawn Him by our righteousness. Forgiveness is the open door thru which grace produces righteousness in the forgiven.
:thumbsup: well said Bro John !!
"The way I see it no one deserves a single iota of God's grace." (EW)
I think I just said this on another post, but now, and I am pondering and praying as I read it and I am not quite so sure now.
I looked for the word deserve in the Bible and Strong's and well except for Ezr.9:13, Job 11:6, and Judg. 9:16 the word is absent. I really need to consider this more.
I don't "deserve" The Lord's love, but I have it. I don't "deserve" His inworking and chastisment, but I have it. :Chinscratch: :dsunny:
Why is the OP picking on Hitler? We have all been conditioned to see him as the embodiment of evil, but I could easily name men and women more evil than Hitler...but that is not the point. The point is that ALL fall short of the glory of God, yet God will be All in all, from John the Baptist to Ivan the Terrible. No one can avoid this, not Hitler, not Stalin, not Mao, not Pol Pot, not satanist La Vey. God has dealt with the wicked by sending Jesus to die in their place and to draw/drag them away from their wickedness.
The OP did mention "tyrants like Hitler" and "murderers".
It's really hard to get this "there is no hell" into our heads when eternal punishment and hell has been pushed in there for so long.
There are just so many different scriptures to bump into, like "the righteous" and things like that. At least I'm finding it a slow go, anyway.
Quote from: Tapioca on March 04, 2014, 06:48:17 AM
The OP did mention "tyrants like Hitler" and "murderers".
It's really hard to get this "there is no hell" into our heads when eternal punishment and hell has been pushed in there for so long.
There are just so many different scriptures to bump into, like "the righteous" and things like that. At least I'm finding it a slow go, anyway.
It's like Isaiah said, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little... God could have laid it all out for us in an explicit manner, without possibility of misunderstanding, but He hid things in plain sight so we would keep going back to dig out treasure. His Word even says that if you can do that, you are a King!
Very good, Laz. And we can find golden nuggets our whole life long that way, as well. :) :cloud9:
Quote from: Tapioca on March 04, 2014, 06:29:07 PM
Very good, Laz. And we can find golden nuggets our whole life long that way, as well. :) :cloud9:
God loves righteousness, and he judges iniquity...... but mercy will triumph over judgment.
Mercy and truth hav met together, righteousness and peace hav kissed each other Psalm 85:10
Mercy triumphs over judgment James 2:13
In this case the old ET by word, "God hates sin but loves the sinner" is truer than they can kno within their theology. :o)
Isn't there a scripture something like, "all souls belong to me." My mind is dozey at the moment. :Chinscratch:
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Thanks, micah. :declare:
Why do people like Hitler deserve to be saved?
Because he is a child of God and only knew what God gave him. He was a vessel of dishonour (Rom. 9:21). I think God used Hitler just like he used Pharaoh. Maybe to show forth his mercy by saving Hitler. We have all been misguided at one time or another about different things, and there isn't any big or small sins in God's eyes, all are sins.
CHB
:dsunny: AMEN!
Yes, DOUBLE Amen. And not just Hitler. Also Hussein, Genghis Khan, Stalin and so many more in fulfilling God's purpose even though it is some time hard for our limited minds to understand why in many cases. :dontknow:
But God knows the end from the beginning. All for His grand purpose. All is of God. :declare:
Yes, no matter how bad someone is, God is always that much better.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AMThis is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
Because God wants it. Ask Paul the former Saul who murdered many Christians.
Does "deserve" = "earn" or "merit?"
Only reason I ask is because ETers often claim that we don't deserve God's grace, because we did not earn it, that he gives it because he is good even when we were not, and chose us before we chose him. Only, they limit this to themselves not the whole world.
No.
So how do you see "deserve?"
There is no "deserve." Should there be anyone who deserves, please scripture and verse. :dsunny:
I deserve destruction.
Quote from: Seth on March 19, 2014, 09:05:42 PM
Does "deserve" = "earn" or "merit?"
Only reason I ask is because ETers often claim that we don't deserve God's grace, because we did not earn it, that he gives it because he is good even when we were not, and chose us before we chose him. Only, they limit this to themselves not the whole world.
Grace = unmerited favor. Unmerited, because none of us are good enough. Favor, because God so loved the world, that He gave...
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 20, 2014, 12:59:33 AM
There is no "deserve." Should there be anyone who deserves, please scripture and verse. :dsunny:
I agree. There are those who overcome and inherit, but they only do it according to power given to them of a higher Authority who made his choices before they were born, and eventually all will be saved because that's his choice too. We deserve nothing, but we gain everything.
Quote from: Seth on March 20, 2014, 01:24:33 AM
We deserve nothing, but we gain everything.
Sure beats deserving everything, and gaining nothing! :doh:
:iagree:
Given GRACE to man, found by Noah in the Eyes of the Lord..is the very reason and purpose that the Lord Jehovah The Creator can and does have reason to work with the very clay of man. He, the Lord announced Grace, so than man would KNOW that the Creator was ABEL!
The ugliness of the human clay man, and all his/her ugliness, with great wisdom... the Lord has considered, can I beat that......no. The Lord is very much in the know of the "Hitlers, Hussains, Mansons, of humans.......... we think so small. The Lord is Good. :HeartThrob:
"Shall the clay say to the potter, 'Why have you made me this way?'"
Some clay does, and it's the first step to repentance.
Hitler deserves it for the same reason our own sons or daughters deserves our love. NOTHING would ever make me stop loving my children, and yearning for them to have abundant lives. There is nothing they could do to earn my love, because they always have it, they always have and they always will. My love for them was and is and is to come. How much more so does our Father love His children, the "fruit of His loins", however wayward?
In fact it was after my daughter was born that I truly couldn't stand the notion of this eternal hell anymore. I had met God, I knew His great love and His goodness, and now that I was experiencing my own parenthood I just knew there surely was no way God could ever send any of His creation to this "eternal torment". I prayed for answers and He gave them. Truly, He is Love.
As a PS;
I truly believe it is the consequences of our own actions that cause us the most torment. I believe a large part of Hitlers torment will be knowing, at least in part, the pain he has caused to many. I believe my torment will be the same. :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 19, 2014, 01:57:33 PM
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
...amen.. "the soul that sins shall die" - I believe it is simply the natural course and results.. I think this because I believe God is life, itself, the life force.. And it seems logical to me that He is also Perfection.. And therefor, to be imperfect is the opposite of life..
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2014, 04:08:52 PM
Why do people like Hitler deserve to be saved?
Because he is a child of God and only knew what God gave him. He was a vessel of dishonour (Rom. 9:21). I think God used Hitler just like he used Pharaoh. Maybe to show forth his mercy by saving Hitler. We have all been misguided at one time or another about different things, and there isn't any big or small sins in God's eyes, all are sins.
CHB
:iagree: :iagree: especially with - "..vessel of dishonour (Rom. 9:21)" ..why is there the two? the elect and the non-elect?
Since it is by God's choice and none of ours!!? I have to think it is for drama's sake..
And how wonderful that into the eternities of eternity, it will all even out.. "All" will be full of joy,etc! :dsunny:
...and what learning for all of us, when we see and comprehend the
horror of sin.. especially if we were to witness the weeping and torments of those non-elect on a final Judgment Day, reviewing mankind's history thereby..
:eek: :eek: :eek:
.."no big or small sins in God's eyes, all are sins." - I agree the result is the same..
I believe once one wanders from God in any teeny, tiny way, they become imperfect/in-error/corrupt/sinful.. and also believe the depths to which any such a one can fall is an abyss and bottomless pit, with no limit to how low one can go, how very, very far they can fall.. and the beginning? a speck! a tiny particle of wandering from God!!! ...shudder :sigh:
Hence the Hitlers, Pol Pots, Mao, Mussolini, father Stalin.. babies placed live in fire as sacrifices to 'the gods'..
war.. pestilence.. famine.. the mass grave...
Quote from: lomarah on July 15, 2014, 03:26:56 PM
As a PS;
I truly believe it is the consequences of our own actions that cause us the most torment. I believe a large part of Hitlers torment will be knowing, at least in part, the pain he has caused to many. I believe my torment will be the same. :2c:
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
One benefit of forgiveness is no torment.
As part of this discussion, I need to remind everyone that Hitler was demonized as a part of a political agenda by his enemies. It is an all-too-true truism to say that history is written by the victors. If you look beyond the History 101 level of things, something I often stress, you will find that Hitler did a lot of good things for his country, like restoring full employment. The war was not started by Germany or by the order of Hitler, but by an aggressive Poland, egged on by the Western Powers, who, once the war began, threw Poland under the bus. History is not always what we are taught in school, nor are historical figures either as evil or as good as often depicted. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 15, 2014, 06:59:32 AM
Some clay does, and it's the first step to repentance.
Ha!
But, was the clay molded to ask that question?
:iagree:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 16, 2014, 06:07:27 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 15, 2014, 06:59:32 AM
Some clay does, and it's the first step to repentance.
Ha!
But, was the clay molded to ask that question?
Nothing can operate beyond its design parameters.
Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.Faith is a gift of God. Asking the first question might very well be the very first phase of unwrapping that gift.
So.... it could be argued that all clay is designed to 'ask' but it has to be triggered by theFather.
:2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 16, 2014, 01:39:57 AM
Quote from: lomarah on July 15, 2014, 03:26:56 PM
As a PS;
I truly believe it is the consequences of our own actions that cause us the most torment. I believe a large part of Hitlers torment will be knowing, at least in part, the pain he has caused to many. I believe my torment will be the same. :2c:
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
One benefit of forgiveness is no torment.
True, but I meant until we repent of those things. I am not one to believe in eternal torment. ;)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 16, 2014, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: saintwalee on July 16, 2014, 06:07:27 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 15, 2014, 06:59:32 AM
Some clay does, and it's the first step to repentance.
Ha!
But, was the clay molded to ask that question?
Nothing can operate beyond its design parameters.
Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
Faith is a gift of God. Asking the first question might very well be the very first phase of unwrapping that gift.
So.... it could be argued that all clay is designed to 'ask' but it has to be triggered by theFather.
:2c:
:iagree: :iagree:
..so it seems to me, that 'punishment' is not God's motive.. And it seems to me He
could bring every one to repentance at any time and even every one on the planet at the same time.. if He so wished..
..but He is - for His own reasons and counsel - allowing things, for the most part, to unfold as they will? (In the affairs of men and the world, that is, though of course He being still fully in control!)
WW, I like the statement, "Nothing can operate beyond its design parameters."
To me this describes very clearly how God moderates the actions of mankind. In Jude, the angels who" left their proper abode" were placed in aidos chains awaiting the judgment of the Day. In Romans 12 Paul said, "By the grace given to me(within my given design parameters) I say unto everyman among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought(stay within your design parameters/proper abode), but judge yourself soberly for to each is given a measure of faith(do not pre-empt the design parameters of others, we all play a part).
Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and in due time(proper time) He will lift you up(proper abode/design parameters)
Let patience have its perfect work that you might be mature(humble/meek) and whole(equipped) lacking nothing.
That is why "ruling" others from the flesh with a mixture of self-interest is so chastised.
If you have selfish ambition and bitter jealousy in your heart do not be arrogant and lie against the truth. This wisdom is not from above but is earthly soulish demonic(exceeding design parameters, leaving the proper abode). The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruit, and the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by them who make peace.(proper abode/design parameters).
In the world, mankind is always at war over this. "What is the source of the wars that wage among your members?"
If everyone humbled themselves under the mighty hand of God there would be more than enough to go around(in terms of service, provision, experiencing the glory of God)
Jesus demonstrated the proper abode as He washed His disciples feet.
Let each one of you exercise his/her special gift in serving one another and so be good stewards of the many faceted grace of God.
When all are servants and stewards of the grace of God then "they were all as one soul and there was great grace upon them and no one among them had any need". So will it be in the ages to come, albeit in the next age by the superior power of Christ,(imo) in the age after that because all are as He is, having received new natures.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
They didn't do anything to deserve to be saved and neither did the saved do anything to deserve to be saved.
If we deserve something it is no longer grace that saves us but works.
The reason Hitler and even, I know this might seem shocking but . . . and even Mother Theresa (shocking, I know), will eventually be saved is due to Christ giving Himself a ransom for them (1 Tim.2:6) and based on that God will have them to be saved including the rest of mankind.
Yup, right on. :thumbsup:
There are millions like Hitler or Stalin right now. Sure, they haven't killed, but Jesus said "murder was in the heart". To be honest, those with the heart of Hitler, but haven't done anything, don't deserve salvation. However, God says they will eventually be saved.
Quote from: Tony N on July 17, 2014, 09:58:25 PM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
They didn't do anything to deserve to be saved and neither did the saved do anything to deserve to be saved.
If we deserve something it is no longer grace that saves us but works.
The reason Hitler and even, I know this might seem shocking but . . . and even Mother Theresa (shocking, I know), will eventually be saved is due to Christ giving Himself a ransom for them (1 Tim.2:6) and based on that God will have them to be saved including the rest of mankind.
People brainwashed by racism, believe Hitler was Mother Theresa, and what the real Mother Theresa did, hurt mankind, LOL. That shows you how Satan comes as an "angel of light".
Quote from: Tony N on July 17, 2014, 09:58:25 PM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
They didn't do anything to deserve to be saved and neither did the saved do anything to deserve to be saved.
If we deserve something it is no longer grace that saves us but works.
The reason Hitler and even, I know this might seem shocking but . . . and even Mother Theresa (shocking, I know), will eventually be saved is due to Christ giving Himself a ransom for them (1 Tim.2:6) and based on that God will have them to be saved including the rest of mankind.
Amen.
Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
I feel that this argument is always the wrong way around (and I don't mean that to sound contradictory or rude). We always start by saying, in effect: "Look what great evil has been committed! What can be measured against it? How can it be blotted out?"
I believe the better way of looking at it is this: is there ANYTHING that the blood of Jesus Christ is not powerful to conquer? Is there any death too dark for His light? Any sin too gross for His sacrifice? Is there any man too far lost in outer darkness for His saving hand? No, No and a thousand times no!
The problem with arguing from the viewpoint of the evil committed, is that we risk extolling the power of darkness instead of the power of Christ, being amazed at the depths of man's depravity instead of the overarching heights of God's love in Jesus Christ. Far, far better to start at the point of what Christ HAS done, and looking from that pinnacle of glory, see an entire universe, with every realm in its entirety, becoming subject to this wonderful King owing to the reality of Him being truly the obedient Son of the Father.
Be assured in every way - if the blood of Christ is indeed sufficient to pay for even the worst sins, then He also has the power to bring the worst sinner into subjection and holiness, having received this power from the Father Himself.
Herein is the great victory we rejoice in!
:iagree:
We have a measurement of sin that is not,
equal to Gods measurement.
What if God gave you every desire of your heart and you still hated him.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 29, 2014, 10:02:10 PM
:iagree:
We have a measurement of sin that is not,
equal to Gods measurement.
What if God gave you every desire of your heart and you still hated him.
I look at it this way: Compared to the vast gulf between men and God. the difference between the best saint and the worst sinner, say Hitler, is a micron, while that vast gulf is a light year. Seen like that, we can put away judgment more easily and smile on our brothers and sisters.
:iagree: not compare ourselves with one another..but Christ.....that always has away of letting the air
out of the baloon[puffed up,much?] and deflate the pride/ego of those saved by grace..but keep forgetting.
Isaaih 26;17-18
Quote from: dajomaco on August 29, 2014, 10:02:10 PM
What if God gave you every desire of your heart and you still hated him.
What if God withheld everything that you saw as good, and you still loved Him?
You have become pretty bold of late Bro. Laz :happyclap: :laugh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 29, 2014, 11:37:21 PM
You have become pretty bold of late Bro. Laz :happyclap: :laugh:
Why, thank you, Micah! Was I not bold before?
Now, if you are referring to the look of my text, I am simply using Arial Black, a font allowed here. My 64-year-old eyes do not tolerate the typical tiny type very well. I do the same on other www forums as well.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 30, 2014, 12:22:08 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 29, 2014, 11:37:21 PM
You have become pretty bold of late Bro. Laz :happyclap: :laugh:
Why, thank you, Micah! Was I not bold before?
Now, if you are referring to the look of my text, I am simply using Arial Black, a font allowed here. My 64-year-old eyes do not tolerate the typical tiny type very well. I do the same on other www forums as well.
You have most certainly always been bold Bro. Laz! Har :banana: Myself at 70 find reading a computer screen detrimental, for that matter reading a stumble. I have found myself reading the Bible on ESword and the translations a cause for my dimming. I have over 15 translations and 3 concordances and I will say without dispute......I have become lazy in my study. But ah such is the world-kosmos-arrangement of the day. By the way I do not mind.....it was humor my friend humor. :dsunny:
Ya, I kinda knew it was humor, and was mostly playing along. I do like large type, though.
By the way it does help me so my thanks :dsunny:
You are welcome. :declare:
I LIKE HUMOR
What was that I didn't hear you?
HE SAYS HE LIKES HUMOR!
Quote from: eaglesway on July 16, 2014, 08:52:06 PM
WW, I like the statement, "Nothing can operate beyond its design parameters."
Jesus demonstrated the proper abode as He washed His disciples feet.
:banana: :banana: :thumbsup:
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
Nobody deserves to be saved, but God is the savior of all mankind. Anybody who thinks somebody else shouldn't get saved is just self-righteous.
""Not one is just"--not even one." (Romans 3:10)
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
Quote from: Tom on November 17, 2014, 01:46:21 AM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
Nobody deserves to be saved, but God is the savior of all mankind. Anybody who thinks somebody else shouldn't get saved is just self-righteous.
""Not one is just"--not even one." (Romans 3:10)
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
:iagree: Amen Tom!
Seeing as Hitler is often used as a touchstone of the UR debate, I think it is worth remembering two things also. Firstly, there are many people as evil as Hitler in every generation, but what Hitler had was more opportunity to act on it, with wider repercussions. In a way, he is a kind of revelation of just how much evil can reside in the human heart, but there can be just as much in a man who has no opportunity to kill six million Jews and countless others.
Secondly, I find Hitler a very ironic subject for the ETers to use as justification, as he was known for allowing/commanding torture, murder, and all manner of heinous crimes including burning those in the camps in ovens. And yet, is this not very similar behavior that ETers attribute to our Father, who they claim will show similar propensities?
This leads to a couple of obvious questions: If our aim is to be like God, and God tortures people without mercy, should we not be the same? Secondly, if Jesus Christ fully revealed the Father, and God tortures people without mercy, where was this particular trait manifested in the life of Christ? Yet more exposure of the utter absurdity of ET.
Quote from: Shev on November 18, 2014, 07:22:05 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 17, 2014, 01:46:21 AM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
Nobody deserves to be saved, but God is the savior of all mankind. Anybody who thinks somebody else shouldn't get saved is just self-righteous.
""Not one is just"--not even one." (Romans 3:10)
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
:iagree: Amen Tom!
Seeing as Hitler is often used as a touchstone of the UR debate, I think it is worth remembering two things also. Firstly, there are many people as evil as Hitler in every generation, but what Hitler had was more opportunity to act on it, with wider repercussions. In a way, he is a kind of revelation of just how much evil can reside in the human heart, but there can be just as much in a man who has no opportunity to kill six million Jews and countless others.
Secondly, I find Hitler a very ironic subject for the ETers to use as justification, as he was known for allowing/commanding torture, murder, and all manner of heinous crimes including burning those in the camps in ovens. And yet, is this not very similar behavior that ETers attribute to our Father, who they claim will show similar propensities?
This leads to a couple of obvious questions: If our aim is to be like God, and God tortures people without mercy, should we not be the same? Secondly, if Jesus Christ fully revealed the Father, and God tortures people without mercy, where was this particular trait manifested in the life of Christ? Yet more exposure of the utter absurdity of ET.
Love how you expounded Shev , this is an excellent retrieve ,
and recovery of the thoughts many hold as Truth !!!
Two edged Sword of the unjust judges and double standard :thumbsup:
Not knowing the righteousness of God
Romans 10
2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
3
For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own,
they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes
Quote from: lomarah on July 15, 2014, 03:22:11 PM
Hitler deserves it for the same reason our own sons or daughters deserves our love. NOTHING would ever make me stop loving my children, and yearning for them to have abundant lives. There is nothing they could do to earn my love, because they always have it, they always have and they always will. My love for them was and is and is to come. How much more so does our Father love His children, the "fruit of His loins", however wayward?
In fact it was after my daughter was born that I truly couldn't stand the notion of this eternal hell anymore. I had met God, I knew His great love and His goodness, and now that I was experiencing my own parenthood I just knew there surely was no way God could ever send any of His creation to this "eternal torment". I prayed for answers and He gave them. Truly, He is Love.
*LIKE*
Quote from: Shev on November 18, 2014, 07:22:05 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 17, 2014, 01:46:21 AM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
Nobody deserves to be saved, but God is the savior of all mankind. Anybody who thinks somebody else shouldn't get saved is just self-righteous.
""Not one is just"--not even one." (Romans 3:10)
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
:iagree: Amen Tom!
Seeing as Hitler is often used as a touchstone of the UR debate, I think it is worth remembering two things also. Firstly, there are many people as evil as Hitler in every generation, but what Hitler had was more opportunity to act on it, with wider repercussions. In a way, he is a kind of revelation of just how much evil can reside in the human heart, but there can be just as much in a man who has no opportunity to kill six million Jews and countless others.
Secondly, I find Hitler a very ironic subject for the ETers to use as justification, as he was known for allowing/commanding torture, murder, and all manner of heinous crimes including burning those in the camps in ovens. And yet, is this not very similar behavior that ETers attribute to our Father, who they claim will show similar propensities?
This leads to a couple of obvious questions: If our aim is to be like God, and God tortures people without mercy, should we not be the same? Secondly, if Jesus Christ fully revealed the Father, and God tortures people without mercy, where was this particular trait manifested in the life of Christ? Yet more exposure of the utter absurdity of ET.
Amen, rather than torturing without mercy Christ said to love even our enemies.
"You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet I am saying to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust." (Matthew 5:43-45)
Quote from: Shev on November 18, 2014, 07:22:05 AM
Seeing as Hitler is often used as a touchstone of the UR debate, I think it is worth remembering two things also. Firstly, there are many people as evil as Hitler in every generation, but what Hitler had was more opportunity to act on it, with wider repercussions. In a way, he is a kind of revelation of just how much evil can reside in the human heart, but there can be just as much in a man who has no opportunity to kill six million Jews and countless others.
Secondly, I find Hitler a very ironic subject for the ETers to use as justification, as he was known for allowing/commanding torture, murder, and all manner of heinous crimes including burning those in the camps in ovens. And yet, is this not very similar behavior that ETers attribute to our Father, who they claim will show similar propensities?
This leads to a couple of obvious questions: If our aim is to be like God, and God tortures people without mercy, should we not be the same? Secondly, if Jesus Christ fully revealed the Father, and God tortures people without mercy, where was this particular trait manifested in the life of Christ? Yet more exposure of the utter absurdity of ET.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteAmen, rather than torturing without mercy Christ said to love even our enemies.
"You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet I am saying to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust." (Matthew 5:43-45)
RIGHT ON TOM!!
This is what turned it around for me ! love your enemies ? WHAT !!
This is when the bomb dropped on me :Oops: GOD in merciful always even in our stupidity ...and believing a lie
Quote from: JBerton on November 18, 2014, 05:18:09 PM
Quote from: lomarah on July 15, 2014, 03:22:11 PM
Hitler deserves it for the same reason our own sons or daughters deserves our love. NOTHING would ever make me stop loving my children, and yearning for them to have abundant lives. There is nothing they could do to earn my love, because they always have it, they always have and they always will. My love for them was and is and is to come. How much more so does our Father love His children, the "fruit of His loins", however wayward?
In fact it was after my daughter was born that I truly couldn't stand the notion of this eternal hell anymore. I had met God, I knew His great love and His goodness, and now that I was experiencing my own parenthood I just knew there surely was no way God could ever send any of His creation to this "eternal torment". I prayed for answers and He gave them. Truly, He is Love.
*LIKE*
We no longer call God creature.
He call him
Father
Anonymous people are as bas as histler
Hitler was simply an horrible person with lot of power
Hitler was an anti-Christ. Anti as in his case, opposite of Christ. A savior born of destruction, the very antithesis of the divine nature. Even in the harshest view, should God pay him 6 million lifetimes of suffering, it would not be forever, and at the end of it, the point would be correction before retribution.
I do not hold that extreme kind of view. I am just making the point. Burning forever could only be justified if the being in torment remained evil forever, in which case, God would be tolerating the persistence in evil of most of those He created in a place outside of Himself forever.
This cannot be argued against in any reasonable way, because anyone who believes God would torment forever beings who had seen the error of their ways, being who had the "evil" purged out of them by exposure to unapproachable light and the consuming fire of the God who is love is someone who has no real familiarity with the divine nature and etrnal power of God, the I AM, YHWH, our Creator, our Redeemer and Sustainer.
So, evil wins, in the ET view- over most of His creation. IMO it is an insane view, and that is why it causes SO MUCH pain and distress among the truly born of God who are held within the chains of it.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 21, 2014, 10:11:55 PM
Hitler was an anti-Christ. Anti as in his case, opposite of Christ. A savior born of destruction, the very antithesis of the divine nature. Even in the harshest view, should God pay him 6 million lifetimes of suffering, it would not be forever, and at the end of it, the point would be correction before retribution.
I do not hold that extreme kind of view. I am just making the point. Burning forever could only be justified if the being in torment remained evil forever, in which case, God would be tolerating the persistence in evil of most of those He created in a place outside of Himself forever.
This cannot be argued against in any reasonable way, because anyone who believes God would torment forever beings who had seen the error of their ways, being who had the "evil" purged out of them by exposure to unapproachable light and the consuming fire of the God who is love is someone who has no real familiarity with the divine nature and etrnal power of God, the I AM, YHWH, our Creator, our Redeemer and Sustainer.
So, evil wins, in the ET view- over most of His creation. IMO it is an insane view, and that is why it causes SO MUCH pain and distress among the truly born of God who are held within the chains of it.
Amen!
Yes, God would be PRESERVING sin rather than doing what he did when he was in Jesus on the cross, which was to judge sin. God would be making sure that sin prevails and Jesus fails.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 21, 2014, 10:28:14 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 21, 2014, 10:11:55 PM
Hitler was an anti-Christ. Anti as in his case, opposite of Christ. A savior born of destruction, the very antithesis of the divine nature. Even in the harshest view, should God pay him 6 million lifetimes of suffering, it would not be forever, and at the end of it, the point would be correction before retribution.
I do not hold that extreme kind of view. I am just making the point. Burning forever could only be justified if the being in torment remained evil forever, in which case, God would be tolerating the persistence in evil of most of those He created in a place outside of Himself forever.
This cannot be argued against in any reasonable way, because anyone who believes God would torment forever beings who had seen the error of their ways, being who had the "evil" purged out of them by exposure to unapproachable light and the consuming fire of the God who is love is someone who has no real familiarity with the divine nature and etrnal power of God, the I AM, YHWH, our Creator, our Redeemer and Sustainer.
So, evil wins, in the ET view- over most of His creation. IMO it is an insane view, and that is why it causes SO MUCH pain and distress among the truly born of God who are held within the chains of it.
Amen!
Amen !!Paul also agrees Brothers !!
Eph 6 19a
nd pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, 20for
which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
I think it's crazy when folks bring up the Hitler thing because what they're really saying is that God should be much worse than Hitler. I think torturing the majority of humanity forever by keeping them all alive in fire is much worse than what Hitler did, and to say it's necessary for justice to be done is to have a distorted idea of God's judgment which is always corrective.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Tom on November 21, 2014, 11:51:01 PM
I think it's crazy when folks bring up the Hitler thing because what they're really saying is that God should be much worse than Hitler. I think torturing the majority of humanity forever by keeping them all alive in fire is much worse than what Hitler did, and to say it's necessary for justice to be done is to have a distorted idea of God's judgment which is always corrective.
I'm reminded of a poem once quoted by one of my creative writing teachers:
If you see a blind man
kick him!
Why should you be kinder than God?
Yeah, that's some more distorted logic. I believe that someday even the blind will see the light, and it's hard to imagine how they will feel when that happens. I think they will probably be overwhelmed with emotion.
I believe the healing of the blind by Jesus was a metaphor for what will happen to us all when we get glorified minds and bodies, with the FULL indwelling of the Spirit:
WOW
Yeah, I think that's definitely going to be a big WOW!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 22, 2014, 03:24:24 AM
I believe the healing of the blind by Jesus was a metaphor for what will happen to us all when we get glorified minds and bodies, with the FULL indwelling of the Spirit:
WOW
Yes Paul was struck blind when he was Saul , it changed him and his course completely from one side to the other and found a middle ground
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 22, 2014, 03:24:24 AM
I believe the healing of the blind by Jesus was a metaphor for what will happen to us all when we get glorified minds and bodies, with the FULL indwelling of the Spirit:
WOW
Amen to that Laz, although I believe Jesus literally healed the blind, I agree that it is a perfect example of how it's gonna be when we get our glorified minds and bodies. In our earthly lives, we are blind even though we think we are not. That is why Lord Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"
Nobody deserves it. That's why we sing "Amazing Grace".
To me, Hitler has had the blood of Jesus Christ shed on his behalf. This makes Hitler precious, bought at the highest price possible. His evil works do not weigh in the balance against the obedience of the spotless lamb.
One of the many problems with ET is it puts the focus of salvation on the creature, such as us getting what we deserve in judgment. UR puts the focus on Jesus Christ, and Him getting what He deserves in glory!
Quote from: Shev on November 11, 2015, 11:13:53 PM
To me, Hitler has had the blood of Jesus Christ shed on his behalf. This makes Hitler precious, bought at the highest price possible. His evil works do not weigh in the balance against the obedience of the spotless lamb.
One of the many problems with ET is it puts the focus of salvation on the creature, such as us getting what we deserve in judgment. UR puts the focus on Jesus Christ, and Him getting what He deserves in glory!
Why do people even scapegoat Adolph Hitler, when there were gobs of evil people involved in that era? He is just the symbol of an era, of a movement, but one in a cast of millions. A dispassionate view of history produces a very different picture than we see in a History 101 worldview. The trouble of thinking of and seeing people like Hitler as evil is that we lift ourselves up by doing so, and become like that Pharisee in the parable who thanked God for not making him like that evil Publican over there, the one who was so aware of his sin that he dared not lift his eyes heavenward. The moral distance between the most evil man in history, whoever he is, and the best man who ever lived is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE smaller than the moral distance between both of them and God.
I agree Lazarus. There people are on the streets just as evil as Hitler, but with less opportunity. And as you say, the issue is not man's evil, but God's goodness and Christ's obedience!
:iagree: with both Shev and Laz. Coming to understand HIS love is a learning and maturing process that many have not even begun to see. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup:
This is a personal proverb I believe God gave to me, after I had worked awhile with a man who was becoming cult leader, and I was praying "Lord, how did I get fooled by this man?"
"The seducer and the seducee are made of the same material."
Amen to the posts above!
...and none of us deserve to be saved.. to me, God iS life itself and also perfection, thus imperfect is the opposite of life, and w/o God's saving mercy, grace, goodness and kindness, we all would ("likewise") perish..
I also believe predator-ness is the natural opposite of God (who is love).. For one's heart and mind to be 'apart' from God, I believe is the abyss. The bottomless pit of potential in every wayward rational creature. Or that is the bottomless pit of potential which is inherent in wandering from or being apart from he who is life itself and the source of all goodness..
However, people who have suffered at the hands of great evil, I for one can understand why they would not like to hear that there would be no 'punishment' of the perpetrators of the great evil (whether large scale/national, or personal). Not only the despots throughout history, and there's been many, but someone who's child was stolen and life stolen and or great suffering or terror done to their precious child, may not want to think the evildoer would have an easy way.. We may know their way will not be easy.. The punishment will come when their acts are brought to light in the bright glory of God's pure and holy Presence, which may indeed involve some fear, when they rise 'still in their sins"..
It's easy to say they should forgive the evil someone dealt them, and they will.. But when I see or hear of great evils, I too comfort myself with the idea of judgment day! Ya-ay, and hooray for judgment day! Those who thought it good to bulldoze bodies of people, precious people into mass graves.. or to maim and torture and terrorize.. I look forward to God's justice. Not believing that he punishes, but the evil in them will punish them.. Even as the every day sinner (we) feel remorse for flaws and shortcomings and felt remorse for the sins committed in our previous ignorance. But, I believe on a much larger scale. Which I do believe such ones deserve. For each person still does have some choice, and a series of choices which led them to the great acts of evil.
I believe for such there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in the dark and terrifying outer darkness.. An outer darkness created by their very selves. (A dark-during/age-during / duration, time, the great gulf in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.)
"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Many people think that Hitler, Stalin, Polpot Maozedung and others "deserve" hell as god is just itching to get his hands on them. God is good, Christ is good, I am evil. Anybody I hear as "being good" I look on as being suspect. some good answers here.
shalom
:Peace2:
Jock
...22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22 - 23
I think this explains it all.
What a glorious story it is!
:cloud9:
D.
There is no variation in levels of sin- all have sinned.
Christ says you think about it you are as guilty as do it.
The price paid is in full for all.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
I am not sure I agree with you on that Ross. :Peace2:
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
its not a question of what Hitler deserves..it's a question of God's unconditional love for His creation..God saves all, including Hitler cos He loves beyond measure..that's God's essence...LOVE. :dsunny:
I think another answer is that it is not Hitler's fault or any tyrannical figure in history. Anyone could have come to the conclusions that Hitler had made in his life time. All Hitler had was his experiences and his perspectives on life none of which he had control over. The burden and responsibility falls on God who has actual control. If God were to send anyone to a fate like hell then he would be the tyrant not someone like Hitler.
I do not think God's mercy in anyway eliminates His justice. Jesus spoke of some being beaten with few stripes, some with many.
Only God knows each persons heart, and He is ultimately merciful to all, but only after all have repented and come clean about their sins and humbled themselves before Him.
And according to Jesus Himself it will not be an easy reckoning for many.
Jesus called Judas a devil and said of him that he would have been better off if He were never born.
He said, Better to enter heaven maimed than to enter Gehenna whole.
Hitler was a devil of devils. I think is reckoning will be very difficult.
No one deserves to be saved. Every one who is saved, is saved when they realize that very thing- and come clean, and receive mercy.
1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for 1God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, abut the Lord looks at the heart."
God sees our hearts. He knows what is easy or difficult for us; He know what our circumstances truly are, and how we perceive them; He knows what resources we have to overcome them. He is our father; our Creator. This journey of ours is to bring us to our perfect selves. We do not start out perfect. It is only through the potter's hands does His clay take form and become a masterpiece. I guess, that is the whole point of our journey. We bring glory to God, through His transformation of us. He loves us into perfection, eventually. All of us. The veil of this fallen world, one day, will be gone and who we were truly meant to be, in our father's beauty, we will become. His glory will show through, even the darkest corners, for He is the ultimate Light of the World.
Who knows....Hitler might be one of His most glorious accomplishments of transformation.
...4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:4-5
Not even Hitler's darkness can overcome His glorious Light!
D.
Here's a Scholar's Corner article ... http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html ... that echos what Eaglesway just said (in its Appendix A) ...
Many have e-mailed to warn me of the dangers of believing and promoting [Christian] universalism. Two closely related dangers have been stressed. Some focus on how important Christians will think it is to spread the gospel if they accept universalism, and warn that belief in universalism would undercut evangelism. Others focus on the potential detrimental effect of promoting universalism on potential Christians themselves, supposing many will think something along the lines of, "Well, I'll be OK anyway, so why bother to accept Christ?"
I do not think that belief in universalism should have the above effects. Here it is important to note that universalism -- at least the position I've been referring to by the term -- does not imply that it is unimportant whether one accepts Christ in this life, or sooner rather than later. All that universalism per se rules out here is the "infinitely big stick": that one will be eternally barred from heaven (and perhaps consigned to hell) if one fails to accept Christ in this life. As I've stressed, universalism itself does not rule out that there will be punishment for some after death. Indeed, it does not rule out that there will be a lot of punishment for some. So it's not only consistent with the existence of sticks, but with very big -- indeed, immensely huge -- sticks, though of course universalists will disagree amongst themselves about the nature and size of whatever sticks there are. Universalism does rule out the infinitely big stick. But it would indeed be very sad if Christians believed that there is strong reason or motivation for accepting Christ in this life only if one faces an infinitely big stick if one fails to do so. Universalism also guarantees that all humans will eventually attain the tremendous carrot. But does the fact that things will eventually be OK for someone remove the motivation -- for herself and for others -- to improve her lot in the meantime? Those who believe they are going to heaven, whether they're universalists or not, believe everything will eventually be OK for them, but few lose all interest in their well-being in the meantime. And those who believe that certain other people (say, loved ones) are destined for heaven don't lose interest in promoting their well-being in the meantime. Why, then, should accepting that everyone will eventually be OK sap all motivation for promoting their well-being in the meantime -- especially since it's at least consistent with universalism that that "meantime" can be a very long time?
It's also worth pointing out that though the universalist believes all will attain heaven, it's consistent with universalism that what one's heavenly existence is like may depend on one's earthly life. Thus the universalist may hold (though perhaps some will not) that how one lives one's earthly life -- perhaps crucially including whether one accepts Christ in this life -- will have eternal significance, even if it doesn't determine whether one (eventually at least) attains heaven.
Another way to look at it is that no one "attain's heaven". Heaven is a state of being in union with God through Jesus Christ. "Every knee shall bow whether in heaven, or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
"As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in his own order"
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".
"No man comes to the Son except the Father draw him."
Union with God is given by grace. We who are the first to believe, chosen and elect, will be used to usher in all creation, as Christ is lifted up in and through us, until God is all in all.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2:9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. Rom 8
What about Jeffrey Dahmer, who is a serial killer? Does he deserve to go to heaven?
none of us deserve Grace..you break one law..your guilty of them all. surely Jeffery Dahmer bore the image of the corrupt one...as all men have
and he too,shall bear the image of the incorrupt one..when he is raised up in incorruption/made into a new creature.
just whose image has man bore of the corrupt one?
have you ever read Jeffrey Dahmer's testimony of how he become so overcome? be watchful..satan goes about like a devouring
lion seeking who he may devour.surely Jeffrey dahmer's flesh was a tasty morsel swallowed up of the serpent dust eater.......
and I saw a wonder in heaven.a woman great with childready to birth..and a great red dragon stood ready to devour the man/child
as soon as he was born..but the man/child was snatched up to heaven. For I am convinced that nothing can seperate us from
the LOVE OF GOD shown through Christ Jesus.
MATTHEW 5
Have we even began to fully understand what it is to love our enemies yet ?
and praying for them even ?
Are we sitting at Jesus feet and listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying to us, in this wicked and adulterous generation ?
The Sermon on the Mount; The Beatitudes !! :HeartThrob:
5 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down,
His disciples came to Him. 2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Disciples and the World
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again?
It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14 "You are the light of the world.
A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away,
not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. !!!!!!!!!!!!
19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Personal Relationships
21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court;
and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery gehenna/lake .
23 Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.
25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way,
so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery';
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you;
for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you;
for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
31 "It was said, 'Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce';
32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.'
34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;
for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?
Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others?
Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I know I am a far cry from being perfected in LOVE yet !! it is just the truth ....
MAY THE TRUE AND LIVING God have mercy on us all ....... the valley of hinnom/ Gehenna is the same judgment we judged with we also will be judged with , being the same sacrifices as casting your own selves & children into the fire !!! AS serving the wrong god, the gods of our own bellies and being found with as wicked as the ones we have judged are ! :sigh:
.... http://biblehub.com/topical/h/hinnom.htm (http://biblehub.com/topical/h/hinnom.htm)
Quote from: rosered on September 02, 2016, 09:08:28 PM
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?
For me ..... this says it all
Excellent post Rose
The Pharisee and the publican went out to pray. The publican could not even look up to heaven, he was so ashamed. the Pharisee said in his heart " thank God I'm not like THAT MAN" it was the publican who was justified that day. think about that, who had the right heart before God?
:Peace2:
Jock
Amen! absolutely! And boy oh boy, thank goodness! :gsmile:
...the title "why does Hitler deserve to be saved?" - he doesn't (which has been posted, amen!)
Lately I've been thinking that within the im-perfect heart (angel or man) is basically a bottomless pit of potential.. as in "how low can we go?"
We like to think we could never sink to certain levels, but I think it all depends upon the will (and intervention) of our Father.. that some are allowed to sink way down in those levels.. where, without intervention, sooner or later, I believe all would descend (if they lived long enough that is).
That's kind of hard for us to accept, that without Jesus/salvation we could sink that low.. But it is in the nature for all things to move and progress.. and without God's saving hand there's only one direction, ultimately, to go.
Why would our heavenly Father allow some to sink so low? Perhaps to fully illustrate and prove how life simply cannot ever be lived without Him. (Who, imo, iS life, and also of course the only source of goodness, and light.) If He is not the ruling force of life, love being that force, then there would always be oppression and abuses.. "I will" do and have what I want.. is bound to collide with others, who may get in the way or compete.. Unfortunately some seem to want to be head of everything.. Even Hitler, more than likely, thought what he was doing was a good thing! As perhaps did Stalin,Pol Pot, Mao, etc, etc.. though some seem to be evil just for the 'fun' of it? (I remember Mao posters from the 70's.. he was thought to be a sort of hero.. a revolutionary, which he was, but woe..)
So I guess that's why I believe Hitler and the like 'deserve' to be saved as much as anyone else! (Which actually is, of course, not at all! :laughing7: ) And, also is another reason I could never believe in 'hell' or annihilation. "God so loved.. He gave His only begotten, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish.." Perish, I believe, being the end result for all if not for our heavenly Father's intervention.. But of course, if we were unable to make any sort of choices, we would never have been in this boat. Another reason to not believe in 'hell' or annihilation, since the Father Himself fashioned us as He did, able to think and reason.. and choose.. (Highly limited of course. Thank Goodness! Or just how much havoc could we wreak?)
Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2016, 03:52:49 PM
We like to think we could never sink to certain levels, but I think it all depends upon the will (and intervention) of our Father.. that some are allowed to sink way down in those levels.. where, without intervention, sooner or later, I believe all would descend (if they lived long enough that is).
That's kind of hard for us to accept, that without Jesus/salvation we could sink that low.. But it is in the nature for all things to move and progress.. and without God's saving hand there's only one direction, ultimately, to go.
"There but for the grace of God ..."
Descend, maybe, but never so far as Hell. Hell, no. :eek:
Recently had a fellow strain at the bit not to kill me because I dared suggest that ALL would be reconciled to Him, on earth and in the heavens. He was OUTRAGED at the thought that the Adversary would be reconciled to God. The more I continued to just stick to quoting the plain Scripture, the madder he got. So, does what or who we call Satan 'deserve' to be saved? Hitler? Me? I suppose we all 'deserve' to be saved because we are creatures of God the Father and of Yeshua, the Son, totally subject to his creative efforts and his ultimate intentions. I didn't choose to be plopped here in this strange realm, made subject to futility so that I WOULD fall short of the Glory of God, condemned to death, and then reconciled. The Adversary was created to do exactly what he did, he sinned from the beginning. Hitler fulfilled God's will for his life even though it's a bitter thing to realize. God works everything according to the counsel of HIS own will. And His thoughts are NOT our thoughts. It took me a long time to realize that I had been following, or desperately trying to follow, a 'god' created by the reasonings and vain philosophies of religious men/women. What a relief to discover that God really was a loving Creator who was going to ultimately use this evil He created for the good of the whole creation and to bring forth Children. He never had any intention of torturing anything or anybody in fire forever. Even Hitler.
stevent. I enjoyed your post and understand what that was like! I went through the same thing recently, with a Jehovah's witness. He is actually a friend of mine. I was pointing out that the greek for, forever, is "ages or ages of the ages. The JW's don't believe in hell but when I told him some other things, he just about blew his stack!
He called later to apologise, which was cool. Not easy to persuade a JW. whew!
Jock :Peace2:
Yes it seems so crazy, doesn't it? Seems like it would be good news to anyone and everyone!
But above all, to me, it seems so strange that most can't see how God, surely, has done all things in just the way He has with full intent, in order to bring about the best 'end' result, so many seem to think this whole thing - life as we presently know it, is somehow some sort of mistake God made.. or something occurred which took Him by surprise. (Haha! As if!!) I'm sure when He (chose to) create rational creatures, He absolutely knew that along with that sooner or later comes the ability to make choices..
Indeed, He knows all things. Knows the end from the beginning. I don't like to hear folks blame Him for the world's evil, even though I know he engineered it, knowing, of course, full well, thinking ability brought about a whole new world/realm or tree(!) of possibilities. All I can try to say to folks who blame Him for the evil people do.. which He allows to happen and do.. is what was His other option? No rational creatures? Ever? I learned these things 17 or so years ago when my son asked me why was the tree of good and evil in the garden? And, isn't it great we get to be an ant farm? Short answer after prayer (because I was noT satisfied with my answer) was we're not an ant farm, that's the whole 'problem'. Most folks don't understand any of that.. well nonbelievers understand it but believers, not so much.
Praise the Lord! UR puts the whole puzzle of life together. The pieces all fall into place. Lots of folks don't care if it doesn't make sense.. but I think in some hearts has been put the deep desire to have the answers.. not so much for self, but to be able to answer those difficult questions if asked.. Even if they can't hear the answer! :laughing7: yet.. :gsmile:
QuotePatinak -
"But for the grace of God, go I"
Amen!! It's what so many believers just don't get.. and I'm not thinking of Hitler's or the like.. but so many believers, to me, seem to have a very cold attitude about those who are not following the Lord.. they say hate the sin but love the sinner.. but it seldom comes across that way.. I'm not trying to find fault, I just find it to be yet another error heavily laid upon this poor planet.
Through all the posts that are being put up, we have all come to realize that the truth will always reveal the hearts of men,
I remember speaking to another truck driver about all being saved as someone who believed in ET came up to start talking to us, as he spoke, I just kept repeating that "God is Love", he just became more angry and it finally burst out of his mouth ..... "God is not Love" ..... I have always hoped that he actually heard the words that came out of his mouth and the Lord showed him who he had become.
If it was not for the existence of evil, there is no way we could ever understand, let alone appreciate what He has done for us. In other words ..... we could never love Him the way He loves us if not for the existence of evil. It is just a tool for His ..... and our ..... good and benefit.
Of course, that is just my opinion (which I know others share)
Quote from: jugghead on November 23, 2016, 03:48:24 AM
I remember speaking to another truck driver...
My hubby's a truck driver.. though local for many years now, thank Goodness! ..Loved your post, and story!! (Wow. Imagine!) :gsmile:
Interesting when looking at the definition of love in 1 Cor 13;
also being told about God's love exceeding our earthly dads' love;
Yet the bondage of this age seems to work on a definition of God saying;
" Love Me, or go to hell."
A threatening, demanding love, not a real love.
In the physical, we can do all we like to rebel; even change our name- yet the lineage will not be altered.
The spiritual exceeds the physical; the very point Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15 when chatting about Christ being the first of the new spiritual essence we are to become.
Hitler, the ET' ers and alike will be learning that in the coming ages; there will be more dramatic stuff happening and changes that cannot be ignored any longer.
At first I heard "bad people go to hell".
Then I heard everyone who rejected Jesus would go to hell forever.
Then I heard that everyone who never heard of Him would join the bad people and the rebelious in hell.
Then I heard that every body who doesnt believe everything thing a certain way would go to hell to.
Then I heard everyone who didnt follow Him in perfection would also go to hell.
Then I said.
"God loses and the saints lose too. Because we are here to be ministers of reconciliation- but even most of us may go to hell, so it looks to me like the gates of hell will prevail against us, and Jesus was wrong. Sure am glad I have all these holy people to straighten me out about God's impotence and His Son's naivete."
;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on November 24, 2016, 06:33:40 AM
At first I heard "bad people go to hell".
Then I heard everyone who rejected Jesus would go to hell forever.
Then I heard that everyone who never heard of Him would join the bad people and the rebelious in hell.
Then I heard that every body who doesnt believe everything thing a certain way would go to hell to.
Then I heard everyone who didnt follow Him in perfection would also go to hell.
Then I said.
"God loses and the saints lose too. Because we are here to be ministers of reconciliation- but even most of us may go to hell, so it looks to me like the gates of hell will prevail against us, and Jesus was wrong. Sure am glad I have all these holy people to straighten me out about God's impotence and His Son's naivete."
;o)
:laughing7: Good post!
I think that we should remember, too, that we are made in the image and likeness of
God; that He formed us in our mother's womb; that He is the potter and we are the clay.
He put goodness and love into each and every one of us, and he will not be through with us, until the Light of His great and unfailing Love, captivates each and every heart and soul. He will work with us, as the potter, until all can see His image and likeness, in every person. It is in there.....He put it there.....and one day, it will be evident for all to see.
The veils of this world will no longer hide it or prevent it from shining.....the seed of Himself that was embedded in us all, will come to see, accept, and praise His greatness and recognize Him as their God.
We will all be given our birthright; our destiny; our reason for being created....to know, love, and serve our God.
So, yes, even Hitler and whoever else we can imagine.......
D.
..this reminds me of the two goats.. I'm a little vague on it.. but wasn't there two goats sacrificed one and the other one is let loose.. Two scapegoats.. the one a type of Jesus who was sacrificed/paid the price.. and the other.. a type of the adversary.. which all hitlers are a type of? what with doing the deeds of the murderer from the beginning/father of lies.. the creator wearing more of the 'blame' having engineered things just as He did in order to bring about evil/imperfection, an unavoidable journey and lesson (if angel and man are to be rational creatures that is?)
Fact of the matter is thousands, maybe more, Hitlers exist. They just haven't come into full bloom. Anyway, the fruit of their hate is simply brainwashing. But I think this stuff can be purged via eternity.
Quote from: StevenL on November 22, 2016, 07:56:32 AM
Recently had a fellow strain at the bit not to kill me because I dared suggest that ALL would be reconciled to Him, on earth and in the heavens. He was OUTRAGED at the thought that the Adversary would be reconciled to God. The more I continued to just stick to quoting the plain Scripture, the madder he got. So, does what or who we call Satan 'deserve' to be saved? Hitler? Me? I suppose we all 'deserve' to be saved because we are creatures of God the Father and of Yeshua, the Son, totally subject to his creative efforts and his ultimate intentions. I didn't choose to be plopped here in this strange realm, made subject to futility so that I WOULD fall short of the Glory of God, condemned to death, and then reconciled. The Adversary was created to do exactly what he did, he sinned from the beginning. Hitler fulfilled God's will for his life even though it's a bitter thing to realize. God works everything according to the counsel of HIS own will. And His thoughts are NOT our thoughts. It took me a long time to realize that I had been following, or desperately trying to follow, a 'god' created by the reasonings and vain philosophies of religious men/women. What a relief to discover that God really was a loving Creator who was going to ultimately use this evil He created for the good of the whole creation and to bring forth Children. He never had any intention of torturing anything or anybody in fire forever. Even Hitler.
true...God is sovereign and He is in control !....even Hitler and those like him have their part to play, as odious evil and repugnant Hitler's deeds were.
Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.
Quote from: darryl on June 19, 2018, 07:17:00 PM
Quote from: StevenL on November 22, 2016, 07:56:32 AM
Recently had a fellow strain at the bit not to kill me because I dared suggest that ALL would be reconciled to Him, on earth and in the heavens. He was OUTRAGED at the thought that the Adversary would be reconciled to God. The more I continued to just stick to quoting the plain Scripture, the madder he got. So, does what or who we call Satan 'deserve' to be saved? Hitler? Me? I suppose we all 'deserve' to be saved because we are creatures of God the Father and of Yeshua, the Son, totally subject to his creative efforts and his ultimate intentions. I didn't choose to be plopped here in this strange realm, made subject to futility so that I WOULD fall short of the Glory of God, condemned to death, and then reconciled. The Adversary was created to do exactly what he did, he sinned from the beginning. Hitler fulfilled God's will for his life even though it's a bitter thing to realize. God works everything according to the counsel of HIS own will. And His thoughts are NOT our thoughts. It took me a long time to realize that I had been following, or desperately trying to follow, a 'god' created by the reasonings and vain philosophies of religious men/women. What a relief to discover that God really was a loving Creator who was going to ultimately use this evil He created for the good of the whole creation and to bring forth Children. He never had any intention of torturing anything or anybody in fire forever. Even Hitler.
true...God is sovereign and He is in control !....even Hitler and those like him have their part to play, as odious evil and repugnant Hitler's deeds were.
Amen! God is so wise! And so clever!! He engineered things so all would take this (surely?) unavoidable journey of learning good from evil all together at once. Unavoidable, surely, as that's what's happening.. What God is doing.
One day I was sitting around musing upon the Lord and his word.. and a thought came strongly to mind, and I'll write it just as i 'heard' it -
"how would you
create an unbreakable perfect paradise?" And quick on the heels of it was
"and have in it rational creatures?"But one of the most important things I ever learned is our Father "is perfect". Perfect makes no mistakes.. can lose nothing. And (surely?) the 'end' result of all this can only be the best one possible.
I wonder, is there a verse that says Satan was the opposer from the beginning of his creation? "A murderer from the beginning.. Does that mean beginning of the world.. beginning of his fall..? or beginning of his very being and creation.. Well, either way, we can be sure our heavenly Father has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the best..
How awesome God alone is in charge of when every single being repents and the veil is removed. And is indeed in charge of every life. All His doing. I also believe, that coming naturally with thinking ability/rationality, is the ability to make choices. And God in His wisdom and ability, is letting - to a degree - things run their course. Like imperfection - as opposed to His being perfection and life (itself) - And in each life His hand blocks or allows what course that imperfection will be allowed to take. That this allowing of imperfection (sin) and (limited) choice to run its course, is a powerful (powerful) drama and experience teaching all that we simply cannot 'go our own way' etc. "I set before thee this day life and death".
That God would condemn anyone, especially 'forever' before they have all the facts quite clearly understood.. is totally absurd. I believe the spiritual lake of fire is the burning and torturous remorse one feels at conversion - weeping.. gnashing of teeth.. Just imagine coming to your senses and you had been one like Hitler or any number of depots, etc. Large and small. But in a truth proving drama of letting sin/evil/mperfectio run its course, surely you have to let/allow even the greatest of evils to occur.. As how else to totally prove the utter horror of any speck of anti-God/anti-Good-ness / any speck of imperfection/disobedience can lead to the greatest evil. (That's why I believe the abyss/bottomless pit of Rev chapter nine is in the wayward heart.. or is imperfection as that bottomless pit of potential.. And everyone "in heaven and earth" is learning that. And I believe Judgement Day is typified by the fall holy day of Day of Atonement, and will be a great 'day' (500 years?) of intense review of all history.. Writing/engraving His law - Jesus/Godliness through Jesus, the forever preeminent One - deeply upon the heart, mind and psyche of all. [Kind of a rambling rant? I was so busy the last day and a half.. no bible talk.. kind of an explosion i guess :mblush:
:Peace2:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 20, 2018, 03:13:12 AM
Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.
:mshock: ...You are
totally right!!
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 20, 2018, 03:13:12 AM
Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.
I think sin expresses itself in different ways - but all bad.
Quote from: TheJason on June 20, 2018, 03:36:55 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 20, 2018, 03:13:12 AM
Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.
I think sin expresses itself in different ways - but all bad.
I agree. Should have made that clear too, lol.
But, even more than that, to meditate on the Love of God. That is why He does all of these things! And, only when He leads us to these Truths, can we only begin to fathom how much that really is. Even with all the saints, the only thing we can do is be able to comprehend how much that really is. We won't be able to see it all at once in the flesh, only as much as the scales fall from our eyes.
Even understanding how much He suffered for us. Not only through His suffering, but also in His death and Resurrection. He was willing to lower Himself, for His own creation, to die for us.
Even the amount He suffered for us when He birthed wisdom (Proverbs 8:24 - Hint: look at Strong's where it says brought forth, and all this chapter too. It also says "before the depths," take note of that. And, on this, In Genesis 1 it can read "In wisdom God created the Heavens and the earth." As wisdom is the principle thing(Proverbs 4:7) and in Genesis 1:1 beginning from Strong's has principle for one of the words.)
This probably deviates from posts above, but felt I should make mention of it.
Interesting... "wisdom is the principal thing" And "Genesis" - "beginning, chiefest, firstfruits, part, time, principal thing" [http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7225.htm (http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7225.htm)]
Goes along with the thought Logos, root word of logic? :Chinscratch: wisdom, the principal thing...
Quote from: marie glen on June 20, 2018, 03:31:53 AM
Quote from: darryl on June 19, 2018, 07:17:00 PM
Quote from: StevenL on November 22, 2016, 07:56:32 AM
That God would condemn anyone, especially 'forever' before they have all the facts quite clearly understood.. is totally absurd. I believe the spiritual lake of fire is the burning and torturous remorse one feels at conversion - weeping.. gnashing of teeth.. Just imagine coming to your senses and you had been one like Hitler or any number of depots, etc. Large and small. But in a truth proving drama of letting sin/evil/mperfectio run its course, surely you have to let/allow even the greatest of evils to occur.. As how else to totally prove the utter horror of any speck of anti-God/anti-Good-ness / any speck of imperfection/disobedience can lead to the greatest evil. (That's why I believe the abyss/bottomless pit of Rev chapter nine is in the wayward heart.. or is imperfection as that bottomless pit of potential.. And everyone "in heaven and earth" is learning that. And I believe Judgement Day is typified by the fall holy day of Day of Atonement, and will be a great 'day' (500 years?) of intense review of all history.. Writing/engraving His law - Jesus/Godliness through Jesus, the forever preeminent One - deeply upon the heart, mind and psyche of all.
so true ! :iagree: :dsunny:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 20, 2018, 03:13:12 AM
Question: What makes YOU different from Hitler? If not for the Grace of God, as Patinak also mentions, you would be just like him.
I think the point is being missed here...it really doesn't matter if I would be (or even am) just like Hitler or if I am an angel compared to him, Hitler will ultimately be reconciled to God through Christ either way, anyway.Why ?...because it's not up to how evil or good me or Hitler are, it's up to God's love and God loves Hitler and Christ died for him just like Christ died for me and you.
But still,you ask what makes me different to Hitler ?...well, I'd like to think, no matter what, I'd never order the extermination of entire people groups, men (young and old) women (young and old) , children, babies, infants eg, Jews, Gypsies etc not to mention the euthanasia of the old and sick ....I find it hard to even harm an insect let alone a human being, especially a child.....you know, I don't think we ought to trivialize what Hitler and the Nazis did,,,I visited Dachau and I felt sick at the horrors that occurred there...I KNOW there's stuff I could never do i.e. murder a beautiful little 5 year old girl,shoot her in the head as some of the SS officers did to Jewish infants.....but still, the Bible says ALL will be saved and that includes Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc etc...so my personal feelings about Hitler, ultimately, do not come into the matter...it's what the New Testament says, not my personal hatred of Nazi actions/ beliefs...that being said, maybe, just maybe, if we had Hitlers psyche, circumstances, experiences,influences etc we too may have ended up a callous psychotic, mass murdering megalomaniac with no conscience, just like him....who knows ?...but I certainly hope not and I don't believe I would because of my sensitive conscience and sense of empathy for others (and I don't mean to sound smug or self righteous, I certainly have my faults)..anyway, again, my personal feelings don't come into it...its what the Bible says that counts....and again, the Bible promises ALL will ultimately be reconciled to God, including the likes of Hitler.
Oh, I do believe that too, Darryl. I was more thinking of these 3 verses:
1 Corinthians 15:10
10and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that [is] towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that [is] with me
Phillipians 2:13
13for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure
Ephesians 2:8-10
8for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you — of God the gift,
9not of works, that no one may boast;
10for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
I am what I am because of the Grace of God. What is Grace? One of Strong's definitions is "Divine influence upon the heart!"
Now, Grace is not a gift by itself, but you gotta do something with it, right?
Ray mentioned in his study it is like me gifting you an exercise bike. Now, would you just leave it in the back collecting dust? Hopefully not. Instead, you have to use it! Not of your own works, but of Christ in you!
I was also thinking that money is a good example. You are expected to use this gift, are you not?
This happens through faith(verb) as well. It is basically the channel used for grace to act by/through. These are all One though. Sure, there are some small differences, but it is all One, just as His Word is One, just as Jesus and the Father are One, and just as God and us(body of Christ) are One.
Here is that study from Ray I referenced. I knew there was a reason I felt to watch it again!
https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 22, 2018, 03:22:47 AM
Oh, I do believe that too, Darryl. I was more thinking of these 3 verses:
1 Corinthians 15:10
10and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that [is] towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that [is] with me
Phillipians 2:13
13for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure
Ephesians 2:8-10
8for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you — of God the gift,
9not of works, that no one may boast;
10for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
I am what I am because of the Grace of God. What is Grace? One of Strong's definitions is "Divine influence upon the heart!"
Now, Grace is not a gift by itself, but you gotta do something with it, right?
Ray mentioned in his study it is like me gifting you an exercise bike. Now, would you just leave it in the back collecting dust? Hopefully not. Instead, you have to use it! Not of your own works, but of Christ in you!
I was also thinking that money is a good example. You are expected to use this gift, are you not?
This happens through faith(verb) as well. It is basically the channel used for grace to act by/through. These are all One though. Sure, there are some small differences, but it is all One, just as His Word is One, just as Jesus and the Father are One, and just as God and us(body of Christ) are One.
ah, yes...GRACE....marvellous !....good stuff !... anyway, I'm getting a bit tired so cannot type much more but I'm sure things will turn out ok in the end...not to sound 'cliched' but you know what I mean....cheers !.
I know exactly what you mean. You don't have to worry about that, we REJOICE in Joy and Gladness! Why worry how others judge that?
Have a good rest too. Sure you need it. Hopefully this does some justice to building up one another:
Jude 1
2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
Bless you too, brother
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on March 02, 2014, 02:19:21 AM
This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?
A few answers...
1). Because we 'all sin and have all fallen short'. :eek:
2). There may be more to the 'Hitler thing' than the media has portrayed. For instance it was Hitler who DID'NT want a war. (He asked for peace on several occassions). The media isn't known for telling the 'truth'! I'm more focused on truth. :laugh:
3). It's not ours to judge and under the same life circumstances we may have been the same. But for the grace of God and all that! :flamebreath:
4). God created Hitler and God is love. :girlheart:
5). His art is pretty good. (Hey as an artist myself)... :banana:
6). God has INFINITE time to sort out Hitler! "Each man in his own order". It might take a year of rehabilitation...Maybe 100 years or a 1000! Knowing how great God is though He could probably sort him out in a minute. :friendstu:
7). Who 'deserves' INFINITE punishment for FINITE sins? Is THAT 'justice' to you? :punish:
8). I (a mere human) wouldn't punish ANYONE forever but ONLY for AS LONG as was required to REDEEM them, so why should I expect any less of the Creator? Would it pleasure me to see someone roasting? Not at all. :doh:
There are probably more reasons but I'd say these are the most obvious ones.
Hitler,in a sense..is not saved...BUT CHANGED INTO A NEW SPIRITUAL CREATURE...theold Hitler..orany old sinner man/tyrant/corrupt
man......is CHANGED!!!!! I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW!!God has power/authority to make one vessel[weak/corrupt/fleshly]and
another of power/incorrupt/spiritual.WE ALL have born the image of the corrupt..andso shall we also all bear the image of the incorrupt.
we won't see 'Hitler"upthere in the eternalrealm...but a new transformed incorruptible creature with a new name[nature] given
and made by the power and GRACE of God.The 'old' Hitler passed away.
Isaaih 47;6 I was angry with my people and desecrated my inheritance,I GAVE THEM INTO YOUR HAND AND YOU SHOWED THEM NO
MERCY.EVEN ON THE AGED YOU LAID A VERY HEAVY YOKE.
Isaaih 48;6 FROM NOW ON I WILL TELL YOU OF NEW THINGS,OF HIDDENTHINGS UNKNOWN TO YOU.THEYARE CREATED NOW,
AND NOT LONG AGO., YOU HAVE NOT HEARD OF THEM BEFORE TODAY.
REV 21;5 I AM MAKINGEVERYTHING NEW!!. Then Hesaid'WRITE THIS DOWN FOR THESEWORDS ARE TRUSTWORTHY ANDTRUE.
:2c:
Quote from: sheila on July 20, 2018, 06:03:10 PM
Hitler,in a sense..is not saved...BUT CHANGED INTO A NEW SPIRITUAL CREATURE...theold Hitler..orany old sinner man/tyrant/corrupt
man......is CHANGED!!!!! I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW!!God has power/authority to make one vessel[weak/corrupt/fleshly]and
another of power/incorrupt/spiritual.WE ALL have born the image of the corrupt..andso shall we also all bear the image of the incorrupt.
we won't see 'Hitler"upthere in the eternalrealm...but a new transformed incorruptible creature with a new name[nature] given
and made by the power and GRACE of God.The 'old' Hitler passed away.
Isaaih 47;6 I was angry with my people and desecrated my inheritance,I GAVE THEM INTO YOUR HAND AND YOU SHOWED THEM NO
MERCY.EVEN ON THE AGED YOU LAID A VERY HEAVY YOKE.
Isaaih 48;6 FROM NOW ON I WILL TELL YOU OF NEW THINGS,OF HIDDENTHINGS UNKNOWN TO YOU.THEYARE CREATED NOW,
AND NOT LONG AGO., YOU HAVE NOT HEARD OF THEM BEFORE TODAY.
REV 21;5 I AM MAKINGEVERYTHING NEW!!. Then Hesaid'WRITE THIS DOWN FOR THESEWORDS ARE TRUSTWORTHY ANDTRUE.
:2c:
Amen sheila :iagree: IMO, God is saving us from ourselves, our old self; transforming us into a new self, it can either take place here before we physically die or after we physically die, either way Love wins.
Altho you could say one is saved by the change, as opposed to annihilated or tormented forever.
But no one deserves anything. It is the same from the most seemingly innocuous sinner to the most infamous ones. As in Adam all men die, so also in Christ shall all men be made alive, and if the unrighteousness of one man abounded in death for all men how much more shall the righteousness of the one man, the second Adam, abound toward all men in grace because in the end- every transformation is by the grace of God. Every face will see in the mirror the reflection of their iniquity against the reflection of Jesus' mighty love.
Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
I think all those who die in their sins will awaken to that face and contemplate the sacrifice He made and be ashamed of their evil works(no matter how vile, no matter how petty) because, His eyes are like flames of fire and His face shines like the sun and every hidden thing will be brought to the light. They will weep and then they will rejoice because in the weeping Adam will die and in the rejoicing a new creature will be born in newness of life as sheila said in her post.
He is the first born from among the dead. We are the firs tfruits. One day God will be all in all. :o)