‘free’ will

[marie glen]

"If I am lifted up from the Earth" Jesus said " I will draw all to Me" (Jn. 12:32) "God chooses.. and hardens whom He will." (Ro. 9:18)
............
I think we've all heard the version of the gospel that says God only saves a few because He won't over ride anyone's 'free will' - "the wages/result of sin is death" - "the soul that sins shall die" - [because God is Life and also perfection, a consuming fire.] (Ro.6:23; Ezek. 18:20; Jn 1:4;  Mt. 5:48; He. 12:29)

"He will judge righteously." (Acts 17:31; Jn. 7:24)

I don't doubt for a minute His not over riding one's will. But is it free will if they don't have all the facts? And if they don't have all the facts, is that "righteous judgment"?
:Peace2:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:..the reason every hidden thing must be revealed...and the whole creation groans for the revealing of the glorious freedom of the sonsofGod.. :2c:

  He over-ruled Jonah's  free will to not go to Nineveh,eh?His will supercedes any'will' that man may have.willful sin vs sins of .iignorance   :2c:

[jabcat]

I've read that draw (helkou) literally means 'drag'.

What any good parent would do if their child was on the precipice of destruction.

[JamesH]

I've read that draw (helkou) literally means 'drag'.

What any good parent would do if their child was on the precipice of destruction.

It can mean drag but it also means attract which would be a much better definition.

[MHz]

The first one that appear to have free will are the ones that are offered a drink of living water in Re:21 as they are the ones who were just resurrected and the represent the last of people to be gathered. They can drink or they can decline and it is set up so nobody will decline even if it is a 'free will ' thing. Until all sinners die at the start of the 1,000 year reign the book is seeing prophecy about a sinful world coming to an end.
The ones not alive for the 1,000 years were part of a group that prophecy said would exist rather than people were using free will to be against God. Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God and it cost him everything and then it took his life. In a free will situation as soon as Aaron's staff ate the others he would have surrender to the demands Moses was laying down. Starting at the beginning of the 1,000 years any temptation that would make a person sin does not exist so nobody is even tempted to sin let alone being able to defeat the temptation. I'm not sure it qualifies as few will but is a flawless to make sure nobody ever sins as that would mean the fiery lake was their punishment.

I don't believe anybody would intentionally have a bad relationship with God that fits the bad ones in the 7 letters to the 7 churches. I got caught being 'warm' but it was not entirely by free will that I moved to the hot side rather than the cold side.

[eaglesway]

Free will is an unbiblical term and no one will have a completely free will until the restoration of all things is complete in them. This is the glorious liberty of the children of God. "For freedom Christ has set you free"...".The one who the son of man sets free will be free indeed"..."you will know the truth and the truth will make you free"

Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Neither are we completely without the exercise of our wills, because God is raising children, training sons and daughters and raising faithful stewards. It is a learning process and freedom is granted as maturity deepens.

"If anyone will be my disciple let them deny themselves(say "No" to their own will) and pick up their cross(say "Yes" to God) and come follow me.

Injecting the polar extremes of Calvinism(man has no will) and Arminianism(man's will is inviolable) into any discussion leads to fruitless, endless confusion.

Common sense approves a more moderate view in between the extremes and when people tell you not to listen to common sense they are really telling you to forsake wisdom for their precious doctrine.

[MHz]

This is for the people that are resurrected at the Great White Throne and the drink of water will allow them to enter New Jerusalem before it departs for the new earth and the eternity that follows.

Re:21:6:
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

I'm not sure that the ones alive at the end of the 1st day of the 1,000 years have free choice about drinking as Jesus leads them to the river of living water that will flow from His House of Prayer to the (former) Dead Sea. The Church will come from the east so they have to pass the same river before they can get to Jerusalem. I also suspect that all of those people will be a little thirsty so they will run to the water rather than having to be dragged to it. If each is several billion people in number who would ever try and be the 'lone hold-out' who won't bend their knee just once.
The ones at judgment day are said to be holding and waving palms, did they have to bend a knee to pick it up? If they did they fulfilled the prophecy.

[eaglesway]

I think the living water is the Holy Spirit, not an actual sea in any time period.

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Jn 7

[rosered]

I think the living water is the Holy Spirit, not an actual sea in any time period.

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Jn 7

:thumbsup:    Amen bro J !! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh  Acts 2

16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17'- In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

  18Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy....

Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.


Acts 2:33
Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

  the very witness and testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy    and these are HIS LIVING WORDS of life  the waters freely given   and to give freely to  anyone whom thirst .   

[MHz]

Re:13:1:
And I stood upon the sand of the sea,
and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and upon his horns ten crowns,
and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

As this applies to the harlot chapter the 'sea' could represent  a 'Sea of Tears' as shed by anybody in the past going back to Adam and Eve. The person seeing the vision is not crying because they have been gathered and Satan is not a threat so there is no fear and when there is no fear there are no tears.

Re:7:17:
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,
and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:
and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Re:21:4:
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.

Isa:65:17-19:
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
for,
behold,
I create Jerusalem a rejoicing,
and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.

Re:17:1:
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials,
and talked with me,
saying unto me,
Come hither;
I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Re:17:2:
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication,
and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

[jabcat]

I've read that draw (helkou) literally means 'drag'.

What any good parent would do if their child was on the precipice of destruction.

It can mean drag but it also means attract which would be a much better definition.

I'm not a Greek expert, but correct or not, this is from an old post on TM by 'studier'; 

The primary definition of the word 'draw' in Greek says, "helkuo" is to literally to draw, drag off forcefully, pull with power.

Here are some other places the word "HELKOU" is used so we can get an understanding of Jesus's words.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew [HELKOU] it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

John 21:6 He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul [HELKOU] the net in because of the large number of fish.

Acts 16:19 When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged [HELKOU] them into the marketplace to face the authorities.

Acts 21:30 30The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged [HELKOU] him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut.

James 2:6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging [HELKOU] you into court?

Nowhere has this word ever been used as a metaphorical usage of "Lead" or "Attract" or "Impel" in Scripture. It has always been used to indicate a refusal of the volition of the subject being dragged or drawn.

[JamesH]

I've read that draw (helkou) literally means 'drag'.

What any good parent would do if their child was on the precipice of destruction.

It can mean drag but it also means attract which would be a much better definition.

I'm not a Greek expert, but correct or not, this is from an old post on TM by 'studier'; 

The primary definition of the word 'draw' in Greek says, "helkuo" is to literally to draw, drag off forcefully, pull with power.

Here are some other places the word "HELKOU" is used so we can get an understanding of Jesus's words.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew [HELKOU] it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

John 21:6 He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul [HELKOU] the net in because of the large number of fish.

Acts 16:19 When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged [HELKOU] them into the marketplace to face the authorities.

Acts 21:30 30The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged [HELKOU] him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut.

James 2:6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging [HELKOU] you into court?

Nowhere has this word ever been used as a metaphorical usage of "Lead" or "Attract" or "Impel" in Scripture. It has always been used to indicate a refusal of the volition of the subject being dragged or drawn.

ἕλκω:

Liddell-to draw to oneself, attract

ἑλκύω:

Dobson-I drag, draw, pull, persuade

Analytical Lexicon Of The Greek New Testamet-To draw mentally and morally(John 6:44)

http://freethinkingministries.com/does-draw-only-mean-irresistible-dragging/

[jabcat]

I don't know that I would fully agree with the "calvinist's" view in your link (he didn't have as much to say as the host) but I also don't fully agree with Sakr's view, taken to its apparent fullest extent (as I understand it).

To me the point is not that we don't have the responsibility to make choices, choose obedience, submission, etc.   It's that God is in control of Who He brings to Himself and when, as in, salvation - the passing from death to life, becoming His child (Jn.1:12) - and that even though we may wander around "offline" in many ways, He still will have the final say in all things.

I'd guess we could post 100 different discussions and people's opinions about it, but I have personally come to see it that God will have His will and way as the final outcome, when, where, why how, who, He chooses. I don't, and doubt any of us are able, to fully understand all nuance of how He accomplishes it.  If pressed though, I personally don't call it freewill, but more so requirement to make choices within parameters God sets.  The need for obedience for sure, yet "man plans, God directs..."   IMO, that puts Him in ultimate control, as in, sovereign.   :2c:

[jabcat]

Here's an old discussion on it;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/helkou-what-does-it-mean-to-draw-all-men/

[JamesH]

I don't know that I would fully agree with the "calvinist's" view in your link (he didn't have as much to say as the host) but I also don't fully agree with Sakr's view, taken to its apparent fullest extent (as I understand it).

To me the point is not that we don't have the responsibility to make choices, choose obedience, submission, etc.   It's that God is in control of Who He brings to Himself and when, as in, salvation - the passing from death to life, becoming His child (Jn.1:12) - and that even though we may wander around "offline" in many ways, He still will have the final say in all things.

I'd guess we could post 100 different discussions and people's opinions about it, but I have personally come to see it that God will have His will and way as the final outcome, when, where, why how, who, He chooses. I don't, and doubt any of us are able, to fully understand all nuance of how He accomplishes it.  If pressed though, I personally don't call it freewill, but more so requirement to make choices within parameters God sets.  The need for obedience for sure, yet "man plans, God directs..."   IMO, that puts Him in ultimate control, as in, sovereign.   :2c:

He may choose but he won't drag you off forcefully against your will to do so. To me that's akin to dragging someone to somewhere and make them do something against their will. That doesn't like a loving Father to me. I believe He will attract or persuade someone though because He's the ultimate persuader. And yes I agree His will in the end in saving all in all will be done and I believe He does it just as I said it earlier by attraction or persuasive means because He's the All Knowing All Powerful God that can achieve His will in the end without making us choose because He has the power to do so and the fact that we will no longer have a sin nature that will sin against God that in itself will keep us in check but still allow us to choose Him out of love for Him not by force.

[jabcat]

He may choose but he won't drag you off forcefully against your will to do so. To me that's akin to dragging someone to somewhere and make them do something against their will. That doesn't like a loving Father to me.

As we each have our own view and understanding, I suspect God breaks (or "violates") our will more than most of us would like to admit.

I'm not saying He does this all the time, but for the sake of it,  as far as "doesn't sound like a loving father..."  I'd suggest in some circumstances at least, He might.  Just as a loving father on earth would drag their child kicking and screaming absolute bloody murder out of the middle of the road if they didn't know any better, or was too stubborn for their own good to get out of danger.  If a semi was coming on a collision course, dad or mom probably wouldn't stand by the side of the road and continue to gently cajole them at that point.  Not sure, but maybe "..how much more your heavenly Father.." also fits that scenario, as far as "[tough] loving action".     :Chinscratch:

Like I said before though, exactly when and how God does these things is probably beyond our capability to understand or explain all the nuance.  A problem might be trying to pigeon-hole God by saying "He only does it this way or that - all the time".  I doubt any of us know that for sure.

I think you make a good point about the sin nature, and that's something to think about;  when, why, how, etc. that goes away.  Some believe it's at death/resurrection, others believe it's after a period of correction.  J.Preston Eby has an interesting article regarding that on TM, where he talks about God being a "horse-breaker", doing whatever it takes and for however long to break man's stubborn will/enmity against Him.  I think it may be in the Lake of Fire series on the main site.  And again, that's one person's take on it. 

IMO it's alright if there are various views on how it happens.  I personally think it does happen in various ways - always through love.  In the end I think pretty much all in this thread agree, God gets what He wills/intends. 

[rosered]

He may choose but he won't drag you off forcefully against your will to do so. To me that's akin to dragging someone to somewhere and make them do something against their will. That doesn't like a loving Father to me.

As we each have our own view and understanding, I suspect God breaks (or "violates") our will more than most of us would like to admit.

I'm not saying He does this all the time, but for the sake of it,  as far as "doesn't sound like a loving father..."  I'd suggest in some circumstances at least, He might.  Just as a loving father on earth would drag their child kicking and screaming absolute bloody murder out of the middle of the road if they didn't know any better, or was too stubborn for their own good to get out of danger.  If a semi was coming on a collision course, dad or mom probably wouldn't stand by the side of the road and continue to gently cajole them at that point.  Not sure, but maybe "..how much more your heavenly Father.." also fits that scenario, as far as "[tough] loving action".     :Chinscratch:

Like I said before though, exactly when and how God does these things is probably beyond our capability to understand or explain all the nuance.  A problem might be trying to pigeon-hole God by saying "He only does it this way or that - all the time".  I doubt any of us know that for sure.

I think you make a good point about the sin nature, and that's something to think about;  when, why, how, etc. that goes away.  Some believe it's at death/resurrection, others believe it's after a period of correction.  J.Preston Eby has an interesting article regarding that on TM, where he talks about God being a "horse-breaker", doing whatever it takes and for however long to break man's stubborn will/enmity against Him.  I think it may be in the Lake of Fire series on the main site.  And again, that's one person's take on it. 

IMO it's alright if there are various views on how it happens.  I personally think it does happen in various ways - always through love.  In the end I think pretty much all in this thread agree, God gets what He wills/intends.

  Amen Bro  J !
     So very true   are these words of Life  , spoken in   Love and mercy and great grace  !   :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:

God is able , the Spirit is indeed willing  , but the flesh is weak  so sleepy in Adam /mankind  , we have the help of the Spirit now praying on our behalf  with groaning   to deep for words , God has covered all  our needs  !!   

25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.

For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words.

27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God....

  Thanking God for the mind of Christ   that helps  us in the hour of need ..   

[WhiteWings]

All free will is equal, but some free will is more equal than other free will.

~ George Orwell, Animal Farm  :laugh:

[rosered]

 

All free will is equal, but some free will is more equal than other free will.

~ George Orwell, Animal Farm  :laugh:

:laughing7: :icon_jokercolor: :thumbsup:

[sheila]

 :laugh: whatever it takes......between dragging and drawing..in the case of the prodigal He let him go on in the error of his ways...andintime..home began

looking very attractive....now  Jonah  expierenced a a differnt way of dealing...he was thrown out of the boat,swallowed up by a whale dragged to thebottom of the sea,

and spat ou ton shore! I believe our Father is free to fulfill that word any way He pleases!   :laugh:I'm not going to take Him to task overit! :dsunny:

[jabcat]

:)  we're all actually probably closer in view on this than our language allows us to explain.  God is God, we're the clay.  He loves us and He knows what needs to happen to fulfill His will
Lots of good thoughts in this thread.  :thumbsup:

[MHz]

The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)

Universalism pivots on the fate on the ones resurrected at Judgment Day, to a point as that is just for people Man is one kind of flesh and the flesh Adam was given dominion over still had the same breath of life that gave Adan and Eve life.

I can show that all the other flesh is also resurrected after the events in Re:22 are finished. That earth would look like the garden area dies in Ge:2 and ths mist would come from the river of living water that  is inside New Jerusalem. As it goes out God would remember the animal He killed to make clothes for Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve are joined by all their children so all the animals they have met are named and they are resurrected. God started a group and Jesus finishes it as the last of the other flesh to die is are the birds and animals that come to eat some of the bodies of the sinners He kills as payment for all the ones of their kind that were killed in religious. Other than the fish in Eze;47 there is no other flesh alive in the 1,000 years because to survive the fire that sends Satan to the lake you have to be sinless and know about good and evil. Even in the eternity of the new earth they do not know about good and evil. They will have a relationship with God like Adam and Eve had in the garden. Eternal beings that eat food so they can live for eternity, men are immortal like angels, they do not need anything to stay alive and nothing can kill them. The only possible death would be if somebody tricked one of the other flesh into eating from the tree of knowledge . It would end as bad as it did for Adam only faster and the punishment would be the lake instead of the grave.

Lu:3:6:
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

1Co:15:39:
All flesh is not the same flesh:
but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
and another of birds.

Lu:12:6:
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings,
and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Lu:12:7:
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Fear not therefore:
ye are of more value than many sparrows.

'Ye' means any person rather than just the Apostle writing it down. The ones at judgment day are included as shown in other passages. If they are saved in one they are just as saved when mentioned in other passages.

In Zec:14 the two groups are the whole of the 12 Tribes and the 'remnant of the nations', both are equal even though they have slightly different duties in that chapter which covers the 1,000 year reign. In the new earth the two duties are combined ant they are in constant company with each other rather than just at the yearly feast

[JamesH]

The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:

Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.

Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:

[rosered]

The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:

Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.

Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:

Please   James H ,
    How do you think Abraham knew God and walked with Him  and was His friend ?
  I guarantee you Abraham had no   worldly wisdom , texts  and  textual critical scholar  teaching Him  about God .

   The Holy Spirit is our teacher as  well as the Lord Jesus Christ /The way  Truth   and Life  , 
 

  We can learn from any   Bible if the Lord anoints you  to understand  it and opens its seals for you ..

knowledge puffs up , but Love edifies   , show some love bro  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Thanks for jumping in and trying to help rose.  :thumbsup:   That's part of what I've been trying to "counsel" against, i.e., declaring things that are opinions/viewpoints as absolutes, because it leaves less room for discussion and instead offers opportunity to butt heads and argue.  Still (mod note) we shouldn't do either - either repeatedly declare opinions as fact, or, engage in argumentative disrespectful behavior.  The 3 times I've posted the above admonitions to MHz about posting style and the possible ramifications is on display recently in this thread.   Past time to reel it in re: all of this and post according to guidelines, or things will begin to be moderated accordingly including possible edits and deletions.

---------
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/**how-to-post-your-first-post**-and-a-mandatory-first-read/msg27185/#msg27185

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