"If I am lifted up from the Earth" Jesus said " I will draw all to Me" (Jn. 12:32) "God chooses.. and hardens whom He will." (Ro. 9:18)
............
I think we've all heard the version of the gospel that says God only saves a few because He won't over ride anyone's 'free will' - "the wages/result of sin is death" - "the soul that sins shall die" - [because God is Life and also perfection, a consuming fire.] (Ro.6:23; Ezek. 18:20; Jn 1:4; Mt. 5:48; He. 12:29)
"He will judge righteously." (Acts 17:31; Jn. 7:24)
I don't doubt for a minute His not over riding one's will. But is it free will if they don't have all the facts? And if they don't have all the facts, is that "righteous judgment"?
:Peace2:
:thumbsup:..the reason every hidden thing must be revealed...and the whole creation groans for the revealing of the glorious freedom of the sonsofGod.. :2c:
He over-ruled Jonah's free will to not go to Nineveh,eh?His will supercedes any'will' that man may have.willful sin vs sins of .iignorance :2c:
I've read that draw (helkou) literally means 'drag'.
What any good parent would do if their child was on the precipice of destruction.
Quote from: jabcat on February 16, 2018, 06:44:32 PM
I've read that draw (helkou) literally means 'drag'.
What any good parent would do if their child was on the precipice of destruction.
It can mean drag but it also means attract which would be a much better definition.
The first one that appear to have free will are the ones that are offered a drink of living water in Re:21 as they are the ones who were just resurrected and the represent the last of people to be gathered. They can drink or they can decline and it is set up so nobody will decline even if it is a 'free will ' thing. Until all sinners die at the start of the 1,000 year reign the book is seeing prophecy about a sinful world coming to an end.
The ones not alive for the 1,000 years were part of a group that prophecy said would exist rather than people were using free will to be against God. Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God and it cost him everything and then it took his life. In a free will situation as soon as Aaron's staff ate the others he would have surrender to the demands Moses was laying down. Starting at the beginning of the 1,000 years any temptation that would make a person sin does not exist so nobody is even tempted to sin let alone being able to defeat the temptation. I'm not sure it qualifies as few will but is a flawless to make sure nobody ever sins as that would mean the fiery lake was their punishment.
I don't believe anybody would intentionally have a bad relationship with God that fits the bad ones in the 7 letters to the 7 churches. I got caught being 'warm' but it was not entirely by free will that I moved to the hot side rather than the cold side.
Free will is an unbiblical term and no one will have a completely free will until the restoration of all things is complete in them. This is the glorious liberty of the children of God. "For freedom Christ has set you free"...".The one who the son of man sets free will be free indeed"..."you will know the truth and the truth will make you free"
Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Neither are we completely without the exercise of our wills, because God is raising children, training sons and daughters and raising faithful stewards. It is a learning process and freedom is granted as maturity deepens.
"If anyone will be my disciple let them deny themselves(say "No" to their own will) and pick up their cross(say "Yes" to God) and come follow me.
Injecting the polar extremes of Calvinism(man has no will) and Arminianism(man's will is inviolable) into any discussion leads to fruitless, endless confusion.
Common sense approves a more moderate view in between the extremes and when people tell you not to listen to common sense they are really telling you to forsake wisdom for their precious doctrine.
This is for the people that are resurrected at the Great White Throne and the drink of water will allow them to enter New Jerusalem before it departs for the new earth and the eternity that follows.
Re:21:6:
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
I'm not sure that the ones alive at the end of the 1st day of the 1,000 years have free choice about drinking as Jesus leads them to the river of living water that will flow from His House of Prayer to the (former) Dead Sea. The Church will come from the east so they have to pass the same river before they can get to Jerusalem. I also suspect that all of those people will be a little thirsty so they will run to the water rather than having to be dragged to it. If each is several billion people in number who would ever try and be the 'lone hold-out' who won't bend their knee just once.
The ones at judgment day are said to be holding and waving palms, did they have to bend a knee to pick it up? If they did they fulfilled the prophecy.
I think the living water is the Holy Spirit, not an actual sea in any time period.
Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Jn 7
Quote from: eaglesway on February 19, 2018, 05:55:16 PM
I think the living water is the Holy Spirit, not an actual sea in any time period.
Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Jn 7
:thumbsup: Amen bro J !! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh Acts 2
16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17'-
In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy....
Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this That I will pour out
My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.
Acts 2:33
Exalted, then, to the right hand of God,
He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. the very witness and testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy and these are HIS LIVING WORDS of life the waters freely given and to give freely to anyone whom thirst .
Re:13:1:
And I stood upon the sand of the sea,
and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and upon his horns ten crowns,
and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
As this applies to the harlot chapter the 'sea' could represent a 'Sea of Tears' as shed by anybody in the past going back to Adam and Eve. The person seeing the vision is not crying because they have been gathered and Satan is not a threat so there is no fear and when there is no fear there are no tears.
Re:7:17:
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,
and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:
and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Re:21:4:
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
Isa:65:17-19:
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
for,
behold,
I create Jerusalem a rejoicing,
and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.
Re:17:1:
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials,
and talked with me,
saying unto me,
Come hither;
I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Re:17:2:
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication,
and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Quote from: JamesH on February 18, 2018, 07:46:07 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 16, 2018, 06:44:32 PM
I've read that draw (helkou) literally means 'drag'.
What any good parent would do if their child was on the precipice of destruction.
It can mean drag but it also means attract which would be a much better definition.
I'm not a Greek expert, but correct or not, this is from an old post on TM by 'studier';
The primary definition of the word 'draw' in Greek says, "helkuo" is to literally to draw, drag off forcefully, pull with power.
Here are some other places the word "HELKOU" is used so we can get an understanding of Jesus's words.
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew [HELKOU] it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)
John 21:6 He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul [HELKOU] the net in because of the large number of fish.
Acts 16:19 When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged [HELKOU] them into the marketplace to face the authorities.
Acts 21:30 30The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged [HELKOU] him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut.
James 2:6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging [HELKOU] you into court?
Nowhere has this word ever been used as a metaphorical usage of "Lead" or "Attract" or "Impel" in Scripture. It has always been used to indicate a refusal of the volition of the subject being dragged or drawn.
Quote from: jabcat on February 20, 2018, 06:06:50 AM
Quote from: JamesH on February 18, 2018, 07:46:07 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 16, 2018, 06:44:32 PM
I've read that draw (helkou) literally means 'drag'.
What any good parent would do if their child was on the precipice of destruction.
It can mean drag but it also means attract which would be a much better definition.
I'm not a Greek expert, but correct or not, this is from an old post on TM by 'studier';
The primary definition of the word 'draw' in Greek says, "helkuo" is to literally to draw, drag off forcefully, pull with power.
Here are some other places the word "HELKOU" is used so we can get an understanding of Jesus's words.
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew [HELKOU] it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)
John 21:6 He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul [HELKOU] the net in because of the large number of fish.
Acts 16:19 When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged [HELKOU] them into the marketplace to face the authorities.
Acts 21:30 30The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged [HELKOU] him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut.
James 2:6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging [HELKOU] you into court?
Nowhere has this word ever been used as a metaphorical usage of "Lead" or "Attract" or "Impel" in Scripture. It has always been used to indicate a refusal of the volition of the subject being dragged or drawn.
ἕλκω:
Liddell-to draw to oneself,
attractἑλκύω:
Dobson-I drag, draw, pull,
persuadeAnalytical Lexicon Of The Greek New Testamet-To draw mentally and
morally(John 6:44)
http://freethinkingministries.com/does-draw-only-mean-irresistible-dragging/
I don't know that I would fully agree with the "calvinist's" view in your link (he didn't have as much to say as the host) but I also don't fully agree with Sakr's view, taken to its apparent fullest extent (as I understand it).
To me the point is not that we don't have the responsibility to make choices, choose obedience, submission, etc. It's that God is in control of Who He brings to Himself and when, as in, salvation - the passing from death to life, becoming His child (Jn.1:12) - and that even though we may wander around "offline" in many ways, He still will have the final say in all things.
I'd guess we could post 100 different discussions and people's opinions about it, but I have personally come to see it that God will have His will and way as the final outcome, when, where, why how, who, He chooses. I don't, and doubt any of us are able, to fully understand all nuance of how He accomplishes it. If pressed though, I personally don't call it freewill, but more so requirement to make choices within parameters God sets. The need for obedience for sure, yet "man plans, God directs..." IMO, that puts Him in ultimate control, as in, sovereign. :2c:
Here's an old discussion on it;
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/helkou-what-does-it-mean-to-draw-all-men/
Quote from: jabcat on February 20, 2018, 07:47:06 AM
I don't know that I would fully agree with the "calvinist's" view in your link (he didn't have as much to say as the host) but I also don't fully agree with Sakr's view, taken to its apparent fullest extent (as I understand it).
To me the point is not that we don't have the responsibility to make choices, choose obedience, submission, etc. It's that God is in control of Who He brings to Himself and when, as in, salvation - the passing from death to life, becoming His child (Jn.1:12) - and that even though we may wander around "offline" in many ways, He still will have the final say in all things.
I'd guess we could post 100 different discussions and people's opinions about it, but I have personally come to see it that God will have His will and way as the final outcome, when, where, why how, who, He chooses. I don't, and doubt any of us are able, to fully understand all nuance of how He accomplishes it. If pressed though, I personally don't call it freewill, but more so requirement to make choices within parameters God sets. The need for obedience for sure, yet "man plans, God directs..." IMO, that puts Him in ultimate control, as in, sovereign. :2c:
He may choose but he won't drag you off forcefully against your will to do so. To me that's akin to dragging someone to somewhere and make them do something against their will. That doesn't like a loving Father to me. I believe He will attract or persuade someone though because He's the ultimate persuader. And yes I agree His will in the end in saving all in all will be done and I believe He does it just as I said it earlier by attraction or persuasive means because He's the All Knowing All Powerful God that can achieve His will in the end without making us choose because He has the power to do so and the fact that we will no longer have a sin nature that will sin against God that in itself will keep us in check but still allow us to choose Him out of love for Him not by force.
Quote from: JamesH on February 20, 2018, 08:43:24 AM
He may choose but he won't drag you off forcefully against your will to do so. To me that's akin to dragging someone to somewhere and make them do something against their will. That doesn't like a loving Father to me.
As we each have our own view and understanding, I suspect God breaks (or "violates") our will more than most of us would like to admit.
I'm not saying He does this all the time, but for the sake of it, as far as "doesn't sound like a loving father..." I'd suggest in some circumstances at least, He might. Just as a loving father on earth would drag their child kicking and screaming absolute bloody murder out of the middle of the road if they didn't know any better, or was too stubborn for their own good to get out of danger. If a semi was coming on a collision course, dad or mom probably wouldn't stand by the side of the road and continue to gently cajole them at that point. Not sure, but maybe "..how much more your heavenly Father.." also fits that scenario, as far as "[tough] loving action". :Chinscratch:
Like I said before though, exactly when and how God does these things is probably beyond our capability to understand or explain all the nuance. A problem might be trying to pigeon-hole God by saying "He only does it this way or that - all the time". I doubt any of us know that for sure.
I think you make a good point about the sin nature, and that's something to think about; when, why, how, etc. that goes away. Some believe it's at death/resurrection, others believe it's after a period of correction. J.Preston Eby has an interesting article regarding that on TM, where he talks about God being a "horse-breaker", doing whatever it takes and for however long to break man's stubborn will/enmity against Him. I think it may be in the Lake of Fire series on the main site. And again, that's one person's take on it.
IMO it's alright if there are various views on how it happens. I personally think it does happen in various ways - always through love. In the end I think pretty much all in this thread agree, God gets what He wills/intends.
Quote from: jabcat on February 20, 2018, 09:40:47 AM
Quote from: JamesH on February 20, 2018, 08:43:24 AM
He may choose but he won't drag you off forcefully against your will to do so. To me that's akin to dragging someone to somewhere and make them do something against their will. That doesn't like a loving Father to me.
As we each have our own view and understanding, I suspect God breaks (or "violates") our will more than most of us would like to admit.
I'm not saying He does this all the time, but for the sake of it, as far as "doesn't sound like a loving father..." I'd suggest in some circumstances at least, He might. Just as a loving father on earth would drag their child kicking and screaming absolute bloody murder out of the middle of the road if they didn't know any better, or was too stubborn for their own good to get out of danger. If a semi was coming on a collision course, dad or mom probably wouldn't stand by the side of the road and continue to gently cajole them at that point. Not sure, but maybe "..how much more your heavenly Father.." also fits that scenario, as far as "[tough] loving action". :Chinscratch:
Like I said before though, exactly when and how God does these things is probably beyond our capability to understand or explain all the nuance. A problem might be trying to pigeon-hole God by saying "He only does it this way or that - all the time". I doubt any of us know that for sure.
I think you make a good point about the sin nature, and that's something to think about; when, why, how, etc. that goes away. Some believe it's at death/resurrection, others believe it's after a period of correction. J.Preston Eby has an interesting article regarding that on TM, where he talks about God being a "horse-breaker", doing whatever it takes and for however long to break man's stubborn will/enmity against Him. I think it may be in the Lake of Fire series on the main site. And again, that's one person's take on it.
IMO it's alright if there are various views on how it happens. I personally think it does happen in various ways - always through love. In the end I think pretty much all in this thread agree, God gets what He wills/intends.
Amen Bro J !
So very true are these words of Life , spoken in Love and mercy and great grace ! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
God is able , the Spirit is indeed willing , but the flesh is weak so sleepy in Adam /mankind , we have the help of the Spirit now praying on our behalf with groaning to deep for words , God has covered all our needs !!
25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words.
27And He who searches our hearts
knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God....
Thanking God for the mind of Christ that helps us in the hour of need ..
All free will is equal, but some free will is more equal than other free will.
~ George Orwell, Animal Farm :laugh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2018, 04:03:24 PM
All free will is equal, but some free will is more equal than other free will.
~ George Orwell, Animal Farm :laugh:
:laughing7: :icon_jokercolor: :thumbsup:
:laugh: whatever it takes......between dragging and drawing..in the case of the prodigal He let him go on in the error of his ways...andintime..home began
looking very attractive....now Jonah expierenced a a differnt way of dealing...he was thrown out of the boat,swallowed up by a whale dragged to thebottom of the sea,
and spat ou ton shore! I believe our Father is free to fulfill that word any way He pleases! :laugh:I'm not going to take Him to task overit! :dsunny:
:) we're all actually probably closer in view on this than our language allows us to explain. God is God, we're the clay. He loves us and He knows what needs to happen to fulfill His will
Lots of good thoughts in this thread. :thumbsup:
The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)
Universalism pivots on the fate on the ones resurrected at Judgment Day, to a point as that is just for people Man is one kind of flesh and the flesh Adam was given dominion over still had the same breath of life that gave Adan and Eve life.
I can show that all the other flesh is also resurrected after the events in Re:22 are finished. That earth would look like the garden area dies in Ge:2 and ths mist would come from the river of living water that is inside New Jerusalem. As it goes out God would remember the animal He killed to make clothes for Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve are joined by all their children so all the animals they have met are named and they are resurrected. God started a group and Jesus finishes it as the last of the other flesh to die is are the birds and animals that come to eat some of the bodies of the sinners He kills as payment for all the ones of their kind that were killed in religious. Other than the fish in Eze;47 there is no other flesh alive in the 1,000 years because to survive the fire that sends Satan to the lake you have to be sinless and know about good and evil. Even in the eternity of the new earth they do not know about good and evil. They will have a relationship with God like Adam and Eve had in the garden. Eternal beings that eat food so they can live for eternity, men are immortal like angels, they do not need anything to stay alive and nothing can kill them. The only possible death would be if somebody tricked one of the other flesh into eating from the tree of knowledge . It would end as bad as it did for Adam only faster and the punishment would be the lake instead of the grave.
Lu:3:6:
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
1Co:15:39:
All flesh is not the same flesh:
but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
and another of birds.
Lu:12:6:
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings,
and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Lu:12:7:
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Fear not therefore:
ye are of more value than many sparrows.
'Ye' means any person rather than just the Apostle writing it down. The ones at judgment day are included as shown in other passages. If they are saved in one they are just as saved when mentioned in other passages.
In Zec:14 the two groups are the whole of the 12 Tribes and the 'remnant of the nations', both are equal even though they have slightly different duties in that chapter which covers the 1,000 year reign. In the new earth the two duties are combined ant they are in constant company with each other rather than just at the yearly feast
Quote from: MHz on February 20, 2018, 08:18:02 PM
The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:
Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.
Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:
Quote from: JamesH on February 21, 2018, 01:17:52 AM
Quote from: MHz on February 20, 2018, 08:18:02 PM
The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:
Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.
Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:
Please James H ,
How do you think Abraham knew God and walked with Him and was His friend ?
I guarantee you Abraham had no worldly wisdom , texts and textual critical scholar teaching Him about God .
The Holy Spirit is our teacher as well as the Lord Jesus Christ /The way Truth and Life ,
We can learn from any Bible if the Lord anoints you to understand it and opens its seals for you ..
knowledge puffs up , but Love edifies , show some love bro :HeartThrob:
Thanks for jumping in and trying to help rose. :thumbsup: That's part of what I've been trying to "counsel" against, i.e., declaring things that are opinions/viewpoints as absolutes, because it leaves less room for discussion and instead offers opportunity to butt heads and argue. Still (mod note) we shouldn't do either - either repeatedly declare opinions as fact, or, engage in argumentative disrespectful behavior. The 3 times I've posted the above admonitions to MHz about posting style and the possible ramifications is on display recently in this thread. Past time to reel it in re: all of this and post according to guidelines, or things will begin to be moderated accordingly including possible edits and deletions.
---------
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/**how-to-post-your-first-post**-and-a-mandatory-first-read/msg27185/#msg27185
- "Read in entirety prior to making first post. (may be amended periodically)
Posting
TM is not a "general debate forum", but a closely moderated discussion board focused on Universal or Ultimate Restoration. Certain things are expected for someone to post. Read the following forum expectations, and making ones' first post indicates an agreement to abide by those guidelines. Questions and discussion is encouraged, but within the forum guidelines outlined below.
All discussion is within limits that have to be assessed by the moderators, including whether what's being discussed is just "preaching/teaching" things considered a clear contradiction to BASIC scriptural/spiritual truths (as understood by the ministry and noted in the Guidelines) and stubbornly continuing to do so past a point of it not being considered fruitful/"useful" to this specific forum's focus. Having been informed of such, either in a thread or by PM, moderation may occur, up to and including requests, warnings, deletion of posts, and banning.
Please remember to post "as I understand, in my opinion (IMO), as I see it, I believe, etc." - if not expressly stated, then obviously in that spirit/attitude. TM Discussion Forum is not any one person's teaching platform. It's a DISCUSSION forum, specifically focused on UR."
Quote from: JamesH on February 21, 2018, 01:17:52 AM
Quote from: MHz on February 20, 2018, 08:18:02 PM
The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:
Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.
Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:
When you make a post that is equal to calling me a fool and I have a 'sane reply' does the title of 'fool' belong in your corner of the debate?? Just curious.
As to your reply I believe I will go with what the translators said about how the 1611KJV came along rather than your version that has no references at all other than your own words. The qualifications needed to write the 4 Gospels was completed by the evening of the return and the gift of understanding all languages was given in Acts:2 so that is the earliest date the Gospels could have been written and Revelations was the last one at about 100AD based on they are the words of eye -witnesses. Free free to jump all over that topic.
THE TRANSLATORS TO THE READER
Preface to the King James Version of 1611
THE BEST THINGS HAVE BEEN CULMINATED
S. Jerome maketh no mention of the Greek tongue, wherein yet he did excel, because he translated not the old Testament out of Greek, but out of Hebrew.
Aquila, of whom we spake before, translated the Bible as carefully, and as skilfully as he could; and yet he thought good to go over it again,
and then it got the credit with the Jews, to be called accurately done, as Saint Jerome witnesseth. If you ask what they had before them, truly it was the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, the Greek of the New.
I doubt very much that they were liars.
Your post makes one thing clear, you haven't read the preface to that Bible.
I have one more quote to make from that document.
Quote from: rosered on February 21, 2018, 02:18:48 AM
Quote from: JamesH on February 21, 2018, 01:17:52 AM
Quote from: MHz on February 20, 2018, 08:18:02 PM
The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:
Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.
Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:
Please James H ,
How do you think Abraham knew God and walked with Him and was His friend ?
I guarantee you Abraham had no worldly wisdom , texts and textual critical scholar teaching Him about God .
The Holy Spirit is our teacher as well as the Lord Jesus Christ /The way Truth and Life ,
We can learn from any Bible if the Lord anoints you to understand it and opens its seals for you ..
knowledge puffs up , but Love edifies , show some love bro :HeartThrob:
i have so much in my head...head knowledge.............sometimes it needed to remind us not to get 'puffed up' with it all................love is the thing n the most hardest thing to 'get'......i wish i were more loving but im a work in progress, i guess.............love is really what its all about but people are hard to love, often/sometimes ?
Quote from: darryl on February 21, 2018, 03:37:24 AM
Quote from: rosered on February 21, 2018, 02:18:48 AM
Quote from: JamesH on February 21, 2018, 01:17:52 AM
Quote from: MHz on February 20, 2018, 08:18:02 PM
The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:
Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.
Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:
Please James H ,
How do you think Abraham knew God and walked with Him and was His friend ?
I guarantee you Abraham had no worldly wisdom , texts and textual critical scholar teaching Him about God .
The Holy Spirit is our teacher as well as the Lord Jesus Christ /The way Truth and Life ,
We can learn from any Bible if the Lord anoints you to understand it and opens its seals for you ..
knowledge puffs up , but Love edifies , show some love bro :HeartThrob:
i have so much in my head...head knowledge.............sometimes it needed to remind us not to get 'puffed up' with it all................love is the thing n the most hardest thing to 'get'......i wish i were more loving but im a work in progress, i guess.............love is really what its all about but people are hard to love, often/sometimes ?
It's a work in progress in me as well. Sorry to all here if I went over the red line!
:HeartThrob: God bless!! :cloud9:
NP James. Wasnt replying to anyone specifically. :Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on February 21, 2018, 05:54:16 AM
:HeartThrob: God bless!! :cloud9:
Ditto sis Marie :HeartThrob: Love serves everyone well , God is the power of Love that everyone thrives on
What amazing grace we have been given to know the Lord and are a part of His body of believers .
1 John 4 Love Comes from God
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God.
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9This is how God's love was revealed among us:
God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.... :HeartThrob:
Love is real , not some fake form of flattering , being real , is sharing the truth in love is the greatest thing ever :dsunny:
I believe this is Tentmakers goal ,by sharing the UR message and to hold the head /Jesus Christ , as the scattered Body comes together in perfect unity in the Love of GOD .
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: .... :cloud9:
I will briefly give you two examples.
+ A christian
- Other believer or godless
conversation 1
+ Jesus is God
- wait a minute. You said, "jesus is god's son" which one ?
+ both
- How ?
+ I dont know. He is god. He is everything.
- I'm confused. you say, God is only one. + Yes. But nobody can tell you that. God can tell you.God chooses and speaks people.
_Wait wait... I'm trying hard for long. Why does God make sense of me? Doesnt he love me?
+ God loves everyone but god choose..
-wait... Why did not God choose me? +I dont know. We can not understand God.
- OK. I prefer to be in my own belief. (or I give up. ) and I believe in my own creator why I want to know your God? Would you like to believe my creator while you your faith?
+ No. the believer will not even wonder other gods. faith requires that.
-Thank you. I don't want either. Goodbye.
conversation 2
- You are constantly criticizing my belief. whereas in your belief, there are wars, famines, diseases and discrimination and heart harden up !
+ We can not understand God.
- but you are looking at us as blind believers. You say it's my responsibility because I didn't call the god. but when I search your god, I do not like and I have difficulty in understanding him. And many faithful Christians hated God because of what they read and see.
Muslims or other believer also see miracles and are connected more to their own god. your god pushes them more pagan.
+ I dont know. Just pray.
- I do. But God accepts the prayer of a Muslim too. How do I know that the sign that came to me came from your god?
+ I dont know.
- well... thank you. goodbye.
And many many examples...
I do not believe in free will. And I will never believe!!!
Quote from: whatistruth on February 27, 2018, 01:53:26 PM
I will briefly give you two examples.
+ A christian
- Other believer or godless
conversation 1
+ Jesus is God
- wait a minute. You said, "jesus is god's son" which one ?
+ both
- How ?
+ I dont know. He is god. He is everything.
- I'm confused. you say, God is only one. + Yes. But nobody can tell you that. God can tell you.God chooses and speaks people.
_Wait wait... I'm trying hard for long. Why does God make sense of me? Doesnt he love me?
+ God loves everyone but god choose..
-wait... Why did not God choose me? +I dont know. We can not understand God.
- OK. I prefer to be in my own belief. (or I give up. ) and I believe in my own creator why I want to know your God? Would you like to believe my creator while you your faith?
+ No. the believer will not even wonder other gods. faith requires that.
-Thank you. I don't want either. Goodbye.
conversation 2
- You are constantly criticizing my belief. whereas in your belief, there are wars, famines, diseases and discrimination and heart harden up !
+ We can not understand God.
- but you are looking at us as blind believers. You say it's my responsibility because I didn't call the god. but when I search your god, I do not like and I have difficulty in understanding him. And many faithful Christians hated God because of what they read and see.
Muslims or other believer also see miracles and are connected more to their own god. your god pushes them more pagan.
+ I dont know. Just pray.
- I do. But God accepts the prayer of a Muslim too. How do I know that the sign that came to me came from your god?
+ I dont know.
- well... thank you. goodbye.
And many many examples...
I do not believe in free will. And I will never believe!!!
Ok .. :HeartThrob:
ONE example of experiencing GOD and everyone has a story to tell about God after they experience Him , it is His story in us working though the void /empty place of not knowing God at all .
We can only obey what we know right ?
what if we do not know anything yet about God ?
How can we really know God ?
I was 23 years old and did not know God , but had heard about God my whole life from others as a little child .
But it did not concern me yet .
But in my pain and emptiness I cried out to God and nothing come from that ,what I could see at the time . :sigh:
My brother had died in a tragic accident at 20 and could not understand why God would do that .
I did not like Gods ways because I could not understand them at all . all I saw was death and hate and loss , misery .
But it was really , I could not like my ways towards God in reality :sigh:
I got worse and worse and hated life and become very destructive towards myself and others , I could not see Gods love for my own pain and torment and how ugly it all seemed to be .
I did many stupid things and become reckless and was not caring any more about anything .
I was doing drugs and drinking and had a bad wreck , this end was a new beginning for me , everyone has their own end of things and beginning of new things as God teaches us though our own experiences that we can share with others and hope they can relate to them in some ways .
We all have bad things happen to us all the time , we suffer though learning what good and evil is , and means to us as individuals as well as being able to empathise and sympathise with others as a whole . The sufferings of Christ to do good and be hated for doing good in a world that does not ''get you '' at all. :sigh:
We cannot do that without suffering , the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship. Who would ever help if they did not understand pain and loss ?
God sends messengers to help us , His Spirit of Life is in people working His will /desire to save us from more pain and torment and fear of death .
My grandparents showed me God though examples, I never heard them as much as I do right now and they have been gone from this world for many years now , but it is still what they did for me at the time that changed the path , it was show mercy to me when I did not deserve it . I thought is God really like this ? loving me when I was still being bad :sigh:
I was so deep in my sinful state and death was all I could relate to , when they helped me , when I did not deserve it , but should keep on suffering for my mistakes , conviction came though their Love for God and me both
I than wanted to know more about this JESUS THAT SAVES US
It was my mistake not knowing GOD or believing in Him before the time He come though my grandparents hearts , but was not my time yet , Till God started somthing new , I was born again right there , in that moment , when I realized God s Holy Spirit was convicting me of sin with MERCY !!
LIKE A FLOOD it come though me and washed away my sin of unbelief , that seed of faith had been planted in Love in my heart , from that time on it has been a journey of ups and downs and all arounds , but the Lord is faithful and never leaves us or forsakes us because once in your heart He wants to stay in you and finish what He started ,
Everyone can have this same hope living in them , but it is in our most weakest moments His love begins to SHINE though the darkness in everyone whom begins to see the Light and in Gods timing everything will be made known , we have to wait on Him to do it all in us each one according to His desire and order
This is only one of millions of testimonies of why we speak of the faith of God working in us and though us God will send what we need, when we come to the end of ourselves and no longer want to be ignorant about Him any more and not know what is happening to the world and what we can do to make all the difference in the world though faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST
Holy Spirit is convicting the world of sin and calling you out of it , into His wonderful Life and light as we are chastened of Him and taught of Him ,what true righteousness means to God Our Holy Heavenly Father and are comforted when we obey the truth in ways the world has never known before now .
I believe in Jesus Christ whom is the LIVING ONE among the dead and the HOLY HEAVENLY FATHER whom Jesus Christ will make perfect before Him , that we can all glory in the LIVING GOD without ever ending .
Because we Love Him now
whom first loved us without us knowing Him at all . We trust God will finish what He started long before we come to be
known as we are even now .:HeartThrob:
Amen, most (if not all) Christian Universalists do not believe in "free will" - the Eternal Torment gospel says God will not cross a person's 'free-will' and that's why the many (so many) will perish (or worse).
So my argument with them - or one argument with them, would be.. How can it possibly be a 'free-will' choice for them if they do not have all the details?!? :eek: Isn't a 'free-will' choice, one in which the person fully understands all aspects of the choice they are making?
So although we are surely(?) not robots or a mere ant farm, but are in the image of God and able to think and reason.. The Word of God plainly says "God chooses" who will come to believe during this lifetime. And "He is a righteous judge"! How can it be possible He would condemn anyone, let alone millions when "no one comes to Jesus unless the Father allows it"!?
If, anyone is 'punished' after this life.. it cannot last "forever". That, to me, is the number one rebuttal to the ET idea (i.e., gospel). Yes, sin destroys - but not 'for ever'! I believe most, if not all who were not saved before they die, will "repent" upon Judgment 'Day' (Universal 'Day' Of Atonement, imo. In Israel days, it was a collective/national day of repentance and reconciliation.)
"How shall they believe unless they are told?"
:HeartThrob: God bless you, Whatistruth.. :gsmile: And amen, Rosie!
Quote from: marie glen on February 27, 2018, 06:12:24 PM
Amen, most (if not all) Christian Universalists do not believe in "free will" - the Eternal Torment gospel says God will not cross a person's 'free-will' and that's why the many (so many) will perish (or worse).
So my argument with them - or one argument with them, would be.. How can it possibly be a 'free-will' choice for them if they do not have all the details?!? :eek: Isn't a 'free-will' choice, one in which the person fully understands all aspects of the choice they are making?
So although we are surely(?) not robots or a mere ant farm, but are in the image of God and able to think and reason.. The Word of God plainly says "God chooses" who will come to believe during this lifetime. And "He is a righteous judge"! How can it be possible He would condemn anyone, let alone millions when "no one comes to Jesus unless the Father allows it"!?
If, anyone is 'punished' after this life.. it cannot last "forever". That, to me, is the number one rebuttal to the ET idea (i.e., gospel). Yes, sin destroys - but not 'for ever'! I believe most, if not all who were not saved before they die, will "repent" upon Judgment 'Day' (Universal 'Day' Of Atonement, imo. In Israel days, it was a collective/national day of repentance and reconciliation.)
"How shall they believe unless they are told?"
:HeartThrob: God bless you, Whatistruth.. :gsmile: And amen, Rosie!
Amens sister Marie , just don't know GOD yet , in Gods time .......right !! wait on the Lord
Each in his own order GOD calls us up out of death .....
:dsunny: LOVE /GOD never fails :HeartThrob:
:banana: I found the absolute proof for free will :banana:
:friendstu: We are all written freely in the will and Testament of Christ :declare:
For me, I can believe in "free will" in only one way and that way is:
If God gave us the authority to have a free will, the only thing I see accomplished by free will is that we were given the ability to "not believe" God, and in the same way "not believe" the truth
which by this "free will" ..... it can only cause our death in "unbelief"
of course this is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me
I myself, see it as God wanting us to relinquish "give up" this ability to choose to "not believe", choose to cause our own death
my :2c:
Quote from: rosered on February 27, 2018, 06:17:20 PM
Amens sister Marie , just don't know GOD yet , in Gods time .......right !! wait on the Lord
Each in his own order GOD calls us up out of death .....
:dsunny: LOVE /GOD never fails :HeartThrob:
Amen sister! :cloud9: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 27, 2018, 06:43:12 PM
:banana: I found the absolute proof for free will :banana:
:friendstu: We are all written freely in the will and Testament of Christ :declare:
:gimmefive: :thumbsup:
Quote from: jugghead on February 27, 2018, 10:00:03 PM
For me, I can believe in "free will" in only one way and that way is:
If God gave us the authority to have a free will, the only thing I see accomplished by free will is that we were given the ability to "not believe" God, and in the same way "not believe" the truth
which by this "free will" ..... it can only cause our death in "unbelief"
of course this is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me
I myself, see it as God wanting us to relinquish "give up" this ability to choose to "not believe", choose to cause our own death
my :2c:
:Chinscratch: That must be true.. otherwise we'd all believe from birth! Wouldn't we..? :thumbsup:
IMO the issue of where our wills begin and end as God conforms us to the image of Christ and brings us into the glorious liberty of the children of God is too nuanced to be capsulized in simple tereems like "fr will". What does free mean? where are the limits of freedom? Is it possible to be free within limits?
Is it possible that freedom grows with responsibility in the stewardship God gives ?
I believe so. To the one unto whom much is given much is required.
When is the will of a person completely free?
IMO thats an easy question- when they are perfected in love. The one who is perfected in love is totally free. When John heard the voice of God it was as the "rushing of many waters. Is the water that pours over a waterfall free? Well there are two ways to look at that. The water is free to flow and fall with the river it is rushing out into space.
This why freedom from the fear of death is so wonderful.
Is the water in a pond as free as the water in a river or a fountain or a waterfall? perhaps. It is a matter of function and purpose.
I believe freedom is the end result of love perfect love. For frem Christ has set us free. The one who the Son sets free will be free indeed(in full reality).
The tiny theological boxes through which this issue is discussed generally is the reason why a phrase like "free will" has become such a hot button issue. What does it even mean? How can it describe such an expansive range of concepts and paradigms?
It can't as far as I am concerned, but that does not mean I do not recognize freedom as an importance essence of what we are being taught by the Holy Spirit- breaking us out of our theological boxes, haelpings us to see how we are going to set the whole creation free from futility(Rom 8).
"The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you dont kno where it is going or from where it comes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit"....... Sounds pretty free to me ;o)
Quote from: JamesH on February 21, 2018, 04:25:37 AM
Quote from: darryl on February 21, 2018, 03:37:24 AM
Quote from: rosered on February 21, 2018, 02:18:48 AM
Quote from: JamesH on February 21, 2018, 01:17:52 AM
Quote from: MHz on February 20, 2018, 08:18:02 PM
The variances that must happen with slightly different text has to lead to a slightly different version of how salvation of anybody happens. The 1611KJV is the only one that is an exact translation of the original Greek and the original Hebrew. (translated by Jews in Jerusalem so it is as perfect as the Greet part)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :Yeahright: :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:
Um hate to break it to you but the TR was translated from medieval manuscripts that don't take back to any earlier manuscripts so please stop trolling your KJVOism or leave because any textual critical scholar has refuted your claims dozens of times over the years.
Oh and you have no proof whatsoever that the TR dates back to Jews in Jerusalem. I've heard wild eyed stuff from KJVO's but that takes the cake :wacko2:
Please James H ,
How do you think Abraham knew God and walked with Him and was His friend ?
I guarantee you Abraham had no worldly wisdom , texts and textual critical scholar teaching Him about God .
The Holy Spirit is our teacher as well as the Lord Jesus Christ /The way Truth and Life ,
We can learn from any Bible if the Lord anoints you to understand it and opens its seals for you ..
knowledge puffs up , but Love edifies , show some love bro :HeartThrob:
i have so much in my head...head knowledge.............sometimes it needed to remind us not to get 'puffed up' with it all................love is the thing n the most hardest thing to 'get'......i wish i were more loving but im a work in progress, i guess.............love is really what its all about but people are hard to love, often/sometimes ?
It's a work in progress in me as well. Sorry to all here if I went over the red line!
no need to apologise, brother....we're all on the Journey ! :dsunny:
I know we have the ability to make a choice. But we do not create environments. And many things... I just do not believe in theology that holds people responsible for everything.
Briefly, I do not believe in the concept of free will other than universalism. (Some little)
And I love you all my sisters and brothers. :HeartThrob:
See you soon.
Amen John , :thumbsup:
Free to Love as we should God first and everyone in the same way without fear and torment of failure .
God knows in our weakness , He alone is our strength .
Without Him we will do nothing , but boast in great things , but unable to accomplish anything .
I have always considered it , It is what God is doing for all , though the Lord Jesus Christ , not what we do for him .
Paul planted and considered it nothing as Apollos waters as nothing , but our duty and joy to share in the LOVE OF GOD as a reward of being a faithful witness also . like those before us , to Gods glory in the earth .
It should be our joy and good pleasure to serve the Living God with a pure heart towards Him as doing everything as unto the Lord Himself !
Not loosing sight of Him in everything done under the Son , Our Lord Jesus Christ .
I cannot emphasize it enough , with fear and awe of how we handle the Word of Life . We have so great a cloud of witnesses !
1John 1;1 The Word of Life
(Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-23)
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life.
2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us.
And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write these things so that our joy may be complete.
5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light,
and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Jesus Christ working is us righted from wrong and death to Life and truth from error and Light from the darkness and knowing good from evil and walking in the Spirit
from lying down in the grave of wickedness , to rest in hope and from a prison , to freedom in Christ .
This is the translation from the message bible
"And I,as I am lifted up from the earth, will attract everyone to me and gather them around me. He put it this way to show how he was going to be put to death"
I just want to be sure of something. He's not just talking about the people who showed up at the Crucifixion is he? I know it may sound like a dumb question but I just want to be sure.
Quote from: Andrew on August 04, 2018, 10:47:41 PM
This is the translation from the message bible
"And I,as I am lifted up from the earth, will attract everyone to me and gather them around me. He put it this way to show how he was going to be put to death"
I just want to be sure of something. He's not just talking about the people who showed up at the Crucifixion is he? I know it may sound like a dumb question but I just want to be sure.
:mshock: Good point!! I never thought of that interpretation before! That He was referring to those who gathered to the cross as He was upon it.. And truly, I have to say, it makes as much sense and logic as the idea that "attracting/drawing all to Him" somehow doesn't mean "all"..
As we can see - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/12-32.htm - the word "all is - #G3956 - https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm (https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm) -
"pas:
all,
everyOriginal Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Short Definition:
all,
the whole, every kind of
Definition:
all, the whole, every kind of" // (sometimes, every kind of)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: marc555 on August 05, 2018, 05:22:27 PM
I believe God never made 2 plants or 2 animals, planets or 2 anything the same... Diversity is obviously important. Jesus chose his disciples because of who they were...son of thunder, the beloved and so on... individuality is cool.
It sounds like a contradiction to say this but we all come together as one...we all march to heaven together or not at all.
We all stand together.
It's all love.
:dsunny:
Amen!! He "is love"!
And "Love never fails"! One body, one church..
Quote from: marc555 on August 05, 2018, 06:36:30 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 19, 2018, 11:42:33 AM
Free will is an unbiblical term and no one will have a completely free will until the restoration of all things is complete in them. This is the glorious liberty of the children of God. "For freedom Christ has set you free"...".The one who the son of man sets free will be free indeed"..."you will know the truth and the truth will make you free"
Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Neither are we completely without the exercise of our wills, because God is raising children, training sons and daughters and raising faithful stewards. It is a learning process and freedom is granted as maturity deepens.
"If anyone will be my disciple let them deny themselves(say "No" to their own will) and pick up their cross(say "Yes" to God) and come follow me.
Injecting the polar extremes of Calvinism(man has no will) and Arminianism(man's will is inviolable) into any discussion leads to fruitless, endless confusion.
Common sense approves a more moderate view in between the extremes and when people tell you not to listen to common sense they are really telling you to forsake wisdom for their precious doctrine.
That was amazing!!! :ty:
:iagree: Amen!
:iagree: :laugh: :banana: :LH:
:laugh2:
..I thought of you in upstate NY when I passed through last month.. :Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on August 08, 2018, 03:29:16 PM
:laugh2:
..I thought of you in upstate NY when I passed through last month.. :Peace2:
I'm in upstate NY too! Ithaca
Just down the road in Binghamton.
Went right through there.. :Peace2: