Help with Heavenly Purgatory

[Ross]

  It occurred to me that I should find comfort in this for despite the temporal removal of trusting in Jesus' works, all things would be restored because Jesus is our insurance. 

:thumbsup: After all; His love NEVER fails.

[marie glen]

How wonderful it is to be able to "rest in Him" concerning all things! :cloud9:

  It occurred to me that I should find comfort in this for despite the temporal removal of trusting in Jesus' works, all things would be restored because Jesus is our insurance. 

:thumbsup: After all; His love NEVER fails.

:iagree: :iagree:

Well, this series has pretty much ended, and I just excused myself from the last session.  I was "gifted" a book and the first chapter was titled, "Tears in Heaven."  Why does everyone think its all happening in heaven?  Can one "gift" an essay of response?  That is the shame of today.  No one is willing to engage in legitimate dialogue though.  I would be happy to discuss the book, but that is not the intent of why the book was given.  It was given to correct me.

..it gets too stressful after a while.. (and accomplishes very little..)

Interesting note.  I truly believe that physical events are manifestations of the spiritual.  The week the series was suppose to begin, the wind randomly blew off the roof of the very room in which the class was to take place...

..since no one else noticed.. must have been a note to you! little dramatic.. (good thing to keep that class in prayer..?! such warfare going on all over.. But all per God's will.. :smile: )

[Cocoon]

Can you believe it? I am still showing up to this class. They are very nice to me despite it all.  We have begun studying evil, suffering and the goodness of God by Gregory Koukl.  The gentleman leading the class desires to prepare Christians with the hard questions that people have that cause them to reject God.

Well, like any series that doesn't accept UR, the answers offered offer little satisfaction.  I pointed this out and I think begrudgingly everyone felt the same.  Free Will was blamed for everything and when I tried to ask if God's hands were tied by man's free will, I think a stirred a pot.  I pressed further and put forth the liability laws of the Bible and asked whether God was liable or not being owner of all things.  I was pot stirring for sure, but they are so kind to me.  They let me put forth my questions but no one really answers my questions.  One even said, "sometimes we might not like God's answers."  How true.  I think I had quite a struggle with UR.  Dr Jones presentation of the liability laws were a huge influence in my decision to concede that UR is indeed true. 

One person in the class questioned me on the liability laws.  She asked if I thought God owed me.  I surprised myself with a response (of which I feel was the Spirit), "God owes it to His character not me."  She was taken back at the response and offered nothing.  What can you say to that? Idk.  It's been a response that has echoed in my mind as if it were meant for me mostly and not her.  I still have to be convinced of UR daily I am sad to say.  You must understand I was quite deluded  once and so I am ever concsious of my weakness to be deluded again. 

Anyway, I am learning lots.  Mostly, how to present myself humbly and meekly.  Not something that comes naturally and I was reading Origen's homilies on Exodus and I was struck to the heart by one of his teachings on the law of two men fighting and accidentally hurting a pregnant woman.  Well, prepare to have your mind blow for this teaching is good. 

You see he equates this law to a spiritual warning for the church.  For all of us are pregnant with the seed ofChrist which I described to my children as the person inside of us desiring to be Christ.  Indeed the church is filled today with brothers and sisters striving against one another with contention and in the midst of the fighting is all these people pregnant with the seed of Christ.  What happens is these "women" get hurt in the contention so much that they lose the seed of Christ within them and are unable to bring forth the child that is to endure unto the end.  He warns that those who strive in such a manner would be held responsible for the damage they caused.  Eye for Eye being the spiritual eye.  Tooth for a tooth that is the ability to chew and discern the word.  Wowzers! Right?!

Well I thought so but boy was I awfully mournful for I have strove with many and who knows how much damage I have caused.  I put forth my debts against man before God and I am thankful He is able to reconcile them.  Sometimes I think this is the a key  to The ultimate UR event that is His servants asking God to clear the debts we have with others.

I am ever reminded that no matter how I proceed in this class I must be more attentive  to walk in all meekness.  I do get wound tight sometimes.  Pray for me. 

[Ross]

  Anyway, I am learning lots.   

Exactly.
My experience and reflection on such discussions clarify my own understanding; I.M.O there is so much to learn and the Lord works in everything- ergo some people are not always aware of what they are saying or why, but the words sink in to your own heart.
This learning keeps getting clearer, bigger, and better all the time!

[marie glen]

My experience and reflection on such discussions clarify my own understanding; I.M.O there is so much to learn and the Lord works in everything- ergo some people are not always aware of what they are saying or why, but the words sink in to your own heart.
This learning keeps getting clearer, bigger, and better all the time!

Amen! :thumbsup:

Cocoon, have you read these? I have this one bookmarked for fast reference.. http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063 - 77 Ultimate Reconciliation and Renewal Scriptures
As we go along, we see UR more and more.. written straight out, and also implied.. more and more.. :dsunny: :cloud9:
:Peace2: :Pray:

His Word is a "two edeged sword" ...I always picture a tapestry of many threads and the tip of that sword can separate thread from thread.. true from false.. two edeged sword, the Word can penetrate and divides true from not true.. and is like seed.. :thumbsup:

[sheila]

#27..wow really appreciate the insight/light on that scripture regarding the woman. Tying it in to Thessalonians...and the certain men who

  slipped in...women heavy laden with sins..and the falling away of the thigh.  lack of true spirit conception[holy spirit seed] instead teachings

  of men and false doctrines bringing forth 'mere dirt" as a menstrous woman.   many deformed 'monstrous"spiritual offsprings through

religion have been born this way[cage/vessels of unclean birds[spirits] that devour flesh. :2c:


   enemies of the cross/Christ take away all sin and free gift of eternal life for all men[promised seed to be sown in all men and bring forth

deliverance of man[child]...........women heavy laden with sin..why? do they not believe that Christ takes away all sin? that sin is blotted

out in Christ..who is accusing of sin those Christ died for? evidently..the certain men who had slipped in. How can anyone conceive that

Holy thing in the face of that constant accusing.? The very reason the woman goes into the wilderness to the place prepared for her.....

where she is fed away from the face of the serpent/strife of tongues and constant accusation and dragon flood waters. There she receives

her vineyard..there He woo's her with His love...there she is assured of His Love and of her great value to Him...there she conceives of

that LOVE and healing and embraces Him with her love[we love because He first loved us] there she returns unto her first Love/reconciliation

union/and the bringing forth of the conception of a holy offspring. There a mere woman encompasses a man..something 'new" is created..

a NEW COVENANT.....A PROMISE...HIS PROMISE.......

[sheila]

TRUE HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL PURGING..of Christ

    2 Chronicles 34;3    high places=powers and principalities in high places...groves/Elijah..putting false prophets to death by His sword/word

  of truth/rightly dividing.  idols[Rachael as menstrous woman sitting on her father's household idols/Psalms 45 forget your fathers house......

  the King is enthralled by your beauty]  molten images[hellfire eternal torment teachings of Baal..that accuse those who God see's no sin

in/causing the children to pass through the fire[destroy]

   Hyssop..sprinkled with the blood of the Lamb...purge me with hyssop

   Isaaih 6;7  lips purged with hot coal...speaking truth/pure language

   Isaaih 27;9...God's vineyard..dragoin slayed..by this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged..and THIS IS ALL THE FRUIT..TO TAKE

AWAY HIS SIN    all the altars[high places] as chalkstones

  purged by His blood..purges wheat/chaff

  purges dry branches[what shall they do in the dry?] snatches them out of the fire..puts clean turban on their head[truth] clean garments etc

  for the filthy rags they had on.  note that term 'snatch out of fire" it is associated with no-one can snatch them out of my hand....and

being snatched away..as some speak of 'rapture"  He has a fiery jealousy of LOVE..and is not ashamed to call man his brother..........

  nothing will stop Father's and Jesus work of claiming[legal right/Shiloh] what is theirs........


   now this is the HEAVENLY PURGATORY..or SPIRITUAL cleansing that Christ and the Father do for ALL mankind.....and it is FREE!

    He bought the potter's field where the 'poor' are buried...and He has the legal right to it...to make a vessel of honour of it.

   IT'S ALREADY BEEN PAID FOR!  YE NEEDN'T PAY FOR IT! IT HAS BEEN FREELY GIVEN UNTO US ALL.   :2c:

[sheila]

   COME! BUY WITHOUT COST!!  Why do you pay money for bread that is not bread? why do you give money to men who are NOT your

  TRUE PRIEST? but are as Judas priests who are robbers and thieves of what has been freely given you..........HE TURNS THEIR TABLES

  OVER!!!! SCOURGES!!!...ZEAL FOR HIS FATHER'S HOUSE CONSUMES HIM!!!    MY FATHER'S HOUSE IS A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL MEN!!!

         ALL men have free access through that ripped viel..to the very presence of the Father...He died for that! Your reconciliation to Your

Father. Because of what He did..when you come into your Father's presence[enter into the Very heavens] HE SEE'S NO SIN IN YOU!

            :2c:

[sheila]

    :soap:   :2c:   I can't stop it..lol!   Birthright issues concerning the Promised seed...and His brother's/sisters..all flesh[I will pour out

  MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH[anointed/HOLY SPIRIT BIRTHRIGHT] a Treasure reserved and prepared in Heaven for all men..a kingdom of

the love of the son.  wars/violence and thievery/usurpation of the birthright has occurred and is written about. let's kill the heir and

seize the vineyard! Jezebel said in regard to Nabal[foolishness of the cross?} I'll get it for Ahab......


     the marketplace/den of robbers and thieves that rob God and men of their birthright[eternal spiritual inheritance worked by God

  through His son,Jesus Christ]  Birthright=family/sonship..that remains a member of the household forever.......this is the reconciliation

  and restoration.  They're still fighting and warring over it..taking it by violence on this earth..........but what they think they have

shall be taken away from them....and given to another nation that bears the fruit..that NATION BORN IN A DAY..even the SPIRITUAL

  ISRAEL OF GOD.  Can a nation be born in a Day?    BEFORE SHE TRAVAILS SHE BRINGS FORTH!


  [Please consider the Jews/Christendom/Islam etc as fighting over the birthright/corruptedfleshly kingdom on earth..taking it by force/wars

  and violence..bow down and do one act of worship to me..and I will give you all these kingdoms of the world] satan met them in the

wilderness quoting scripture..........stones to bread[law covenant] kingdoms of this world[Constantine Roman church/Islam caliphate]


   Now examine Jesus covenant for a Kingdom with His disciple's...the world will hate and kill you..no fancy robes and honour of men

    no throne..but prisons persecution casting out etc.  His appearance on this earth is as a man turns his face away from.[Rev ch 17

   wherefore didst thou marvel?[ and admire]   Come out of her MY PEOPLE..lest ye receive her plagues...famine..coz their buying bread

  that is NOT bread/,wars,captivity/killed of wild beasts/spiritual sickness and death.   Many of them got plans to rule and reign on this

earth at Messiah's return! smile ......just waiting for God to give it..or actively killing/warring to help it along..or wipe out all that stand in

their way and send them off to hell! or et! or ed.  off with their heads! But Christ is the head of man.........


    I was once out in 'service/to whom/not God I now know]  and there were a few 'elders' in our group. They began talking about the new

earth  they were to rule..after God had removed all the sovereign nations holding them back..and those who had not received them at their

  doors[sons of thunder calling down fire from heaven/satan himself will call down fire from heaven] and the wicked sinner men destroyed.


    They awaited eagerly their reign over those who would be resurrected and they would teach their doctrines to..and how they had

  1000 years to make perfect in their flesh ..and walk perfectly in their flesh. And if they did not submit to their authority...Praise Jehovah!

  they could put them to death!!! Cause,see, USA won't let them at present........just a small personal example I saw..let alone caliphates

  one word/nwo ...national/secular Israel..and all the other extremists religious organizations.nations and kingdoms of this world.


    sorry for the rant...think I'm pretty much poured at present........ :2c:

   

       

   the Kingdom of Heaven is IN your MIDST.......in the garden there are two trees...tokogae which brought forth the death/corruption

  and marred vessel.[flesh]....the promised seed to the TOL is also in your midst..that eternity sowed in your heart...that incorruptible seed

  in the heart of the earth for 3 days/sown in corruption..raised in power.

[GodIsLove]

Sheila! Loved your rant!

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  it got the best of me.  the thought of Judas priests taking money to pray someones loved ones out of purgatory......and making

  merchandise of man's relationship with God..when all are bought and paid for by Jesus' blood!  feed them a lie..then extort money..to free

  them from the lie.  Buy the truth,sell it not!  Come BUY WITHOUT MONEY![believe the truth I/Jesus speak to you!]


    Thankfully our good shepherd saw the wolves[in sheeps clothing] coming...and laid down His life for the sheep. No man took it from Him.

    He laid it down willingly..in order to take it back UP again. He died to speak these words of truth unto us...religious leaders said 'Blasphemy!"

    But He did it so we could live!   LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!

   

[jugghead]

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)

To return the word to the glory He had with thee before the world was is to understand ..... all the word(s) out of our mouths are to be of life .... even when we speak of death we speak of life for the death of the flesh is life to the spirit .... Lord if thou condemn .... condemn this flesh that I may have life .... condemn death and let it be swallowed up by life and reign .... shut the mouth of the accuser so I can hear the words of forgiveness .... if I speak of blindness it is so I can see .... if I speak of deafness it is so I can hear

Glory to Him who does ALL these things and more through His Living Word

[eaglesway]

Freely you have received, freely give. He paid the price for our freedom. For anyone to put that up for sale would be like a beggar who made himself rich selling bread that was given to him for nothing, telling no one where he received the free gift, and refusing to share with those who could not pay.

[sheila]

exactly!  Because Jerusalem Above is FREE...AND SHE IS THE MOTHER OF US ALL...... :dsunny:

[sheila]

Cocoon,  sadly those who have been snakebit by Rome,and insist on having roman eyes...will be bereft of the knowledge of Our Family and

   birthright.. the things He has freely given us ...and  stored up for us in Heaven. Putting your trust in men and man following has it's con-

sequences......especially following blind men. I learned it the hard way,too.  .


    I recognize your desire that they have more abundant life now.... :thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

In response to the topic of love having no fear, I just wanted to say that one of the main reasons that love has no fear, IMO, because it only thinks of the 'other', or the one love is being given.

When we truly love, we don't worry about consequences; what the cost will be; what will happen tomorrow to make loving difficult;what sacrifices we will have to make; what others will think; how we will be looked upon. We throw all our worries and concerns aside, and focus all of our attention on the one we love. Nothing is too difficult; too long; too dangerous; too different; too painful.

This is what God the Father did for us, when He sent us His only Son. He did not care about all those issues that could have been considered, but never were.

We had to be saved, and there was no limit to what would be done to achieve that goal. No fear was too great. Love overrode it all. And, yes, Sheila, He laid it down willingly. Jesus was more than happy to go along with the Father's wishes. He and the Father are one. And, love is who they are.

And, we are to do likewise.

D.

[sheila]

exactly,D............very glad you posted that......and Jacob loved Rachael...and served 14 years for her..and it was as nothing in his eyes.

    just a  small human example of what love will sacrifice.

[jugghead]

Great post D

touched the heart :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Cocoon]

 :girlheart:  this is wonderful.  Love the insights Shelia and Dandelion

[Cocoon]

Some interesting things I am seeing in this class is:

1) Many are resigned to the fact that they aren't suppose to understand God.  That He is incomprehensible. 

2) That faith is believing without knowledge.  THat is one gets on a plane having faith without any knowledge of whether it will fall out of the sky.   We have faith in a God we don't really understand or unable to rationalize.  We just simply believe.

3)The gospel is offensive and the offensive part is that some people are going to hell.  In fact, lots of people are going to hell. If we remove this, we remove the offensiveness of the gospel. 

My response

1) I have nothing really to offer here.  I did mention that the Bible does say that He will tell his servants his plans, that Paul says we are to have the mind of Christ, and that we are called to prove the will of God.  How can all that be true if our God is incomprehensible and that He isn't meant to be understood?   Are we rational beings?  Is God rational?  Why make us rational if we are never mention understand/rationalize God?  How are we like God if not able to rationalize? 
The retort was that even Jesus doesn't know the day of His return.  Only the Father knows so to have the mind of Christ isn't to understand all there is to understand about God.  Why God is sending anyone to hell for all eternity is not meant to be rationalized but to be excepted by Faith. which brings me to point two.

2)  I can no longer believe that faith is believing without knowledge.  Abraham was able to confidently walk up a mountain to offer his son to God.  Why?  Years and years of experience Abraham learns the character of God.  If faith is believing without knowledge, then why not ask Abraham to do this act at the age of 18 when has no experience or revelation of God? 

Do we believe in Christ based on zero knowledge?  Or is it the knowledge of how frail and sinful we are and how good God is that brings us to repentance?  If faith is based on no knowledge, then why preach the gospel?  We don't need it if faith is based on nothing.  This simple is an idea that cannot be worked.  I didn't have time to work this out for them but I did share the Abraham example. 

3)  What about the gospel is suppose to be offensive?  That we can't save ourselves.  That we need God.  This is what is offensive.  The pride of man can not accept assistance.  I thought this is what is offensive about the gospel.  How can I get them to see that this is the only part that is offensive about the gospel?  Of course, judgment is offensive but eternal judgment?  They are resigned to the fact that this is truth, and who are they to question God?  In fact, I think some find it offensive for me to question God to say that God is liable for saving us. 

This discussions have been interesting, and there is a large amount of grace given to me in this class.  They are trying to save me from this bad idea, and in the goodness of their hearts, I do see them listening to me to help me find my way.  I humbly resign that I am unable to answer their questions sometimes but I am finding this a safe place to explore UR more.  I can't abandon UR.  They have no idea that I have explored and wrestled with UR for a long time but soon it consumed me and I couldn't believe anything else.  IF I be blind, I have asked Him to cure me.  Onward I go and as I gain more knowledge of Him, I can't believe anything else it seems.

[sheila]

# 1 ask,seek,knock...#2  My people perish through a lack of knowledge in the one true God.  we can have misplaced faith,faith in a lie,faith in

men/pastors/clergy etc

   #3  they became offended because..He said he was God's son..that He had power/authority to forgive sin .that He cold forgive sins and give eternal life :2c:

  only a ministry of condemnation/death[Judge law] becomes offended at forgiveness of all sin and free gift of eternal life.[fulfill Law]   :2c:

[Ross]

Simple thing for me is the truth that our Father in heaven loves us more than our earthly dad.
Ergo- does our dad threaten us with rejection if we do not obey him?
        Does he evict us for our mistakes, or correct us?
         What dad expects us to come as a servant, not a child?
         We are told to come as little children to our Father, with boldness and security- not fear of failure.
         Discipline is never pleasant at the time, but necessary for being corrected and trained to walk properly- our Father disciplines
          those He loves.
      We are not to call anyone on earth father, yet many ministers like being called father- why?

I find the statement "each in his own turn" releases me from the need to convert others.
After all perfect love casts out all fear, so if they are in fear they have not yet been released from the bondage to the law to the complete position secured for us by the grace of God through the work of Christ.
       

[jugghead]

Simple thing for me is the truth that our Father in heaven loves us more than our earthly dad.
Ergo- does our dad threaten us with rejection if we do not obey him?
        Does he evict us for our mistakes, or correct us?
         What dad expects us to come as a servant, not a child?
         We are told to come as little children to our Father, with boldness and security- not fear of failure.
         Discipline is never pleasant at the time, but necessary for being corrected and trained to walk properly- our Father disciplines
          those He loves.
      We are not to call anyone on earth father, yet many ministers like being called father- why?

I find the statement "each in his own turn" releases me from the need to convert others.
After all perfect love casts out all fear, so if they are in fear they have not yet been released from the bondage to the law to the complete position secured for us by the grace of God through the work of Christ.
       

:iagree:  :thumbsup:  will give it 5 stars  :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

[Dandelion]

Cocoon, I think we need to differentiate.

There is knowledge, which is useful to transfer information, about our faith, as well as about other things, then there is wisdom, which is God given and helps us to discern.

I also believe we have revelation from the Holy Spirit, which is usually about a specific incident, Bible verse, situation, or so on. This, hopefully occurs frequently, and regularly.

All are useful and important, but to see through eyes of faith and trust, guided by the Holy Spirit, is essential.

We must be born of Spirit and water to enter Heaven, Jesus told Nichodemus. We must be born again, into the Spiritual realm, beyond this earthly world.

To be born again is of the essence.

D. 

[jabcat]

Cocoon, I think we need to differentiate.

There is knowledge, which is useful to transfer information, about our faith, as well as about other things, then there is wisdom, which is God given and helps us to discern.

I also believe we have revelation from the Holy Spirit, which is usually about a specific incident, Bible verse, situation, or so on. This, hopefully occurs frequently, and regularly.

All are useful and important, but to see through eyes of faith and trust, guided by the Holy Spirit, is essential.

We must be born of Spirit and water to enter Heaven, Jesus told Nichodemus. We must be born again, into the Spiritual realm, beyond this earthly world.

To be born again is of the essence.

D.

:goodpost: