Help with Heavenly Purgatory

[Cocoon]

So I am in this Sunday school class, and this teacher is being influenced by certain elders.  There is one elder in the class that doesn't agree with this teacher, but he is moving with all wisdom and discretion.  I am thinking there is maybe some invisible politics at play.  I feel quite welcomed by most in the class, and I am content to stay.  I am trying to offer up logic and thoughts for others to consider as the teachings have gotten out of hand.  I did present my concern to the elder, and I think that his power must be limited for though the elder agreed with my concerns, this teacher is continuing on with his studies.

I am here to try to see if anyone can offer help to me.  I think with great care and thought I could offer decisive verses that would add clarity.  We all know that often the greatest problem is universalism, but I also believe that one can work around this deficiency and still add health to the body. 

The teacher is providing verses that he wants people to consider.  He wants them to consider the idea that we will reap consequences for our sins even though we believe in Jesus.  He refuses to go into detail on what exactly are those consequences, and when I suggest that what is being considered is a heavenly purgatory, he is insist that this is not what he is saying.  Well, I am not sure what else he could be saying. It is quite peculiar, and offers nothing else but an emphatic no to the idea that he is suggesting a heavenly purgatory.

Here are the verses he has us reviewing this week:  Matthew 12:35-36, Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:16, Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:9-11, Galatians 6:7, 1 Peter 1:17, Colossians 3:23-25, 1 John 2:28, Revelation 22:11-12, Ecclesiastes 12:13-14,

Matthew 12:35-36 were easy enough because the following verse talks about being justified by our words.  I just referred to being justified by faith.  I used Paul's teachings in 2 Corinthians 9 to clarify Galatians 6:7. 

You see there are several things doctrinally wrong with his point of view (free will and such) that I almost think it futile to offer much of anything else, but this teaching is quite dangerous to an infant in Christ.  I think such doctrines of a heavenly purgatory would cause much despair when one does not know that sanctification is the work of God.  It is hard to explain such deep theological discussion without a verse by verse study, and as you can see there is nothing verse by verse that this teacher is offering.

I know some will think that I should just leave the class and church altogether, but the pastor's teachings don't match this man's teachings.  It is why I find him being a teacher as a peculiar matter.  I know the elder in the class doesn't agree with this man's teachings either.  But I find him either very careful because of political dynamics that I am unaware of or that he is unable to pin point why this man's teachings is wrong. 

Either way please consider those in the class that could be easily influenced in a despairing way, and please help me to provide solid doctrine and insight into these verses.  I feel slightly overwhelmed by the job and thought this place would surely be a good place to get help. 

I agree that there are different levels of reward, but I don't agree that there are negative consequences to that which we do in the flesh and not in the spirit.  Also, I would not be looking forward to Christ's return based on these teachings.  It's not that I live a fleshly life for that life is mostly behind me.  I have quite changed thanks to the Spirit.  However, I have such an awful past that I would very much not like to account for at all. I'd like to think it disappeared when I put on the righteousness of Christ.  This teacher does not think so.  If that is what he believes, well I don't know how he isn't very much depressed all the time.  Indeed, I should be very despairing altogether, and I once was before the Spirit taught me of who I am in Christ.  We wonder why Pastors kill themselves witch such doctrine still running amuck in the church.   

Well, any help at all would be appreciated.  Thanks you so much.

[Ross]

G'day;
This issue has been going on for centuries.
Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. When He was tempted He merely quoted scriptures.
Seems your leader is under bondage to the law. When in this condition there is much of the legal scripture quoted to justify that stance.
Paul talks heaps about this very issue. He elaborates to what the Grace actually covers- EVERYTHING.
His teachings in Galations explain the law, the bondage about going back to the law- in that chat the statement about being crucified with Christ is, to me, the key; He says it is no longer I who lives, but Christ Who lives in me.
For me, that cuts out failure to get there because Christ is my life.
Romans 8;38,39 highlight that NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Before that point Paul says; vs 33 "It is God who justifies us."
Ephesians 2;4-10 Elaborate about Christ faith being used to justify us; He did not fail.

2 Cor 10;12 says a lot;  For we would not dare classify or compare ourselves with some of them who are recommending themselves.
                                   Rather, when they measure themselves by themselves, and compare themselves by themselves,
                                   they are without understanding.
vs 18 " For it is not the one who recommends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord recommends."

2 Cor 11;14,15  state a lot.

2 Cor 11;3 says that there is simplicity and purity in Christ.
1 Cor 1;21-24  The simplicity again.
1 Cor 2;2 I know nothing among you except Christ crucified.
With all that Romans 5;18 "Just as one man's transgressions brought condemnation for all men,
                                        so also one man's righteous act brought justification and life for all men."

Would seem you are there for a reason; as I said before when Christ was tempted He just used scriptures.
Hope this is useful.

[Cocoon]

Yes, that is very helpful.  Thank you.  I do prefer scriptures, and while I have a very good handle on them, this teacher challenges me with all sorts of verses.  He quite knows how to stump me with verses about fearing , but when I try to point out that both have to be true otherwise we are calling God a hypocrite, he passes on to the next verse.  I am not very good working on the whim.  I pray a lot in the class. 

The teacher isn't dreadful to me. He is nice as one can be.  He reminds me of my old me.  I had to be very much humbled to come to where I am today.  I will share that one day.  The problem is it took me quite some time of exploring UR before I became convinced and I don't have that kind of time in a classroom.  Plus, I was very much influenced by Dr. Jones writings on the law.  I have a deep love for the law now that I understand that Christ is the substance of them. Studying them is joy for me. It takes too much background information to express the Law in that way.

Thanks again.

[Ross]

You are welcome.
The whole purpose of the law is explained beautifully in Galations chapters 3 and 4.

for example;
Gal 3;24 " Thus the law was our disciplinarian UNTIL the time of Christ, so that we might be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by faith."

then;
Gal 4;2 " The heir is under the care of guardians and managers until the time determined by his father."

Gal 4;4,5 " But when the fullness of time had come, God sent His Son, born of a woman under law, to redeem those who were
                 under law so that we might receive adoption as sons."

Towards the end of chapter four the explanation of Israel still under the law, but the Jerusalem above freeing us from that law seems to be  pointing out the difference and purpose of Christ fulfilling the law.
I.M.O this is the why the law deepened Paul's understanding of the whole need for the sacrifice to absolve us from the errors we make; but those errors are a part of learning right from wrong. The tree of knowledge is necessary for all mankind to be taught. Plus wisdom only comes through experience- so we need to go through this to grow in grace and knowledge.
All pretty awesome really KNOWING Christ covers all that.
May HE indeed bless you and teach you much.

[eaglesway]

Amen Ross

Also, sacrifice is the greatest form of love. ("No greater love has a man than this, to lay down His life for His friends").

We love and we make sacrifices in love, and that is higher than the law(light from without) and fulfills the law (meets the goal of the law and transcends it).

Thats why love covers a multitude of sins.

God is love, and Jesus is the radiance of the Father's glory, and Christ laying down His life on the cross for us is not only our salvation, deliverance and healing..... it is the Way, into which we are drawn as disciples of His, always growing in love- becoming more and more conformed to the image Christ from within- which as you expressed, is Paul's message in Galatians

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6

Paul goes on in the final chapter(Gal 6) to give some beautiful pointers on what that should look like.

[rosered]

 Great thoughts  guys .....

I believe you are doing a good job expressing your faith , speaking Words of Life over the death   that is the fear  all  humanity [being the frail condition, weakness   all are planted in /corruption  ]that do not understand  GOD nor His ways , Cocoon

   Strength  comes from Gods Spirit of Life, giving boldness to speak     IN  Christ /  the anointed WORD in power , basically breathing on and in us all .

To think heaven has a punishment place  is off thinking  in my opinion ... Purgatory (Latin: Purgatorium, via Anglo-Norman and Old French) is an intermediate state after physical death in which those destined for heaven "undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven".

sos 8 Wear me as a signet ring on your heart,
    as a ring on your hand.
    Love is as overpowering as death.
    Devotion is as unyielding as the grave.
    Love's flames are flames of fire,
        flames that come from Yah.

Love is strong is  death  and God is Love   and if death is the last enemy    to be defeated in   Jesus Christ  work on the cross , is to believe what He has done already .  many scriptures tells us we do not understand the significance of    death  though the law of sin and death , nor the   gift of Life though the work of the HOLY SPIRIT  and giving the ''multiple gifts ''  of the HOLY SPIRIT OF LIFE working in us all  .    Given an inheritance  from the FATHER OF LIFE   ,Jesus Christ being the One of a kind Son and first born of   this nature  [WORD OF TRUTH & SPIRIT OF TRUTH ,  the inner man of the heart  that is not seen  visibly with human eyes and yet Lives and does Honor the LIVING GOD AND FATHER .

I can see that many are doubting   His work  of defeating death  and making it some how depend on them   to save themselves  still .

Which I am one whom  sees  a self righteous spirit at work in those whom still think it depends on any human effort  and this is the subtle  and crafty wisdom of the world   that mixes   them   thoughts together causing Babylon   to have a power  over the  people    that do not have any  spiritual understanding  yet , but are as carnal babes in Christ [ 1Cor 3  And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as fleshly--as to infants in Christ.]

   That error to me is the sin of  not seeing  What God has always   kept separate    , What  is  above  has always been a higher    realm of   Wisdom that is totally incorruptible   and unchangeable  and  permanent  Truth  and a solid  and straight path  of  The  Living .GOD HIMSELF and that Glory .

  and the below wisdom    that is corruptible  and temporary   realm of thoughts   that provoke  doubts and fear and  unstable    thinking  that is ever changing  and never  able to  stand  up to    TRUTH  and  divides   and separates  us all  .

Knowing the Scriptures speaks of  unity and Oneness of the SPIRIT   fail to believe it  as TRUTH .

Like you said there are so many scriptures   to prove   this and yet   being of the SAME  ONE  SPIRIT is not obvious as the world sees  it ,because it is still in the darkness/ignorance  of the womb or tomb process of GODS LAW .
  Giving  the impression that    GOD has failed  us all some how and that could NOT be any further   from the TRUTH ..   we see, not by natural  sight  but by faith believing  as  LIVING  works are produced by the fruits of the  Holy SPIRIT   and Living Word working in us and though us  as Gods desires are being fulfilled .

GOD FIRST and foremost  place in our hearts /ONE HOLY  SPIRIT  / ONE GOD / ONE  FAITH    only , that all  source and power of Love flows from , not many other spirits   ruling over  our hearts  and loving one another as we love our own selves and desires to be doing gratifying the flesh[temporary  and useless things ] and  gratifying spiritual pride [power over the poor in spirit ].
  The Holy Spirit has to rule over the flesh   and also over the  other spirits  that call themselves    gods , but are false  liars and murderers  and robbers and thieves stealing Gods glory for themselves and rule as  gods over the peoples   , these are the unclean spirits   not of the Holy and pure ONE .. 

  There are two things that have been  made clear to me  BY GODS SPIRIT AND WORD  OF LIFE ,
BOTH of these   leads to death  a first death  ,   putting away the deeds of the flesh  , give up your  desire  for temporary rulership  of the body    romans 8 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.
  old adam's  nature of disobedience [soul /life ]carnal as a beast running on emotional  needs  and feelings of power over weaker  ones , devouring one another   to be top dog , we see how our own kingdoms ,  nations and governments rule over the common man  as politics   with so much corruption  and doing evil as they sit as kings of the earth     

and the  second death  being of the  wrong spirit,   a god of this world  , a prince , of the religious whore of the earth  by mixing    the flesh and spirit   offspring and calling it  god being  Babylon  that still is a rebellious adversary against the TRUTH 

  GOD has set a Day/LIGHT AND FIRE OF HIS JEALOUSY     when He will destroy  both   by the WORD OF TRUTH BY THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH ,  and to the doom of both of these things , one has already been  defeated by the cross of Jesus Christ and  the finished work of the cross   working though you  , but  if you cannot believe JESUS CHRIST    in the core of your being   , than the spirit of Babylon is ruling  over you 

Proof of the root is in the fruit ,[HOLY SPIRIT /TREE OF LIFE]  you have passed from death to life ....    1 John 3 ;1413So do not be surprised, brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.

LOVE EVERYONE as yourself because  you want everyone to be saved as you are saved !!!!!!   Babylon wants   everyone to serve her desires  and  could care less about anyone else  .... Ruling over everyone with this false sense of power over the  poor in spirit  seeking God , it is false religion   at its finest  seeking the praises of men  and  men worshipping men  as gods appearing to do good and calling it good  but evil/below   wisdom  is ruling their hearts  that are so far away from God in TRUTH   this is the reward of iniquity   , .... 

  john 5 The Father and the Son
...23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life. 25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live....
LOVE GOD FIRST AND FOREMOST AND HIS WILL /DESIRE IS YOURS AS WELL

  you can do nothings against the TRUTH  and prosper  eternally   , but for the TRUTH    , yes it is politics and religion     the beast and  the whore   riding the beast   whom are    bearing the fruits  of death [graves  of the innocent ] and  destruction and loss ...   and these mindsets   must bear the fruits meet for repentance a change of mind  [carnal ] and heart [as gods ]Gen 3  For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

we can sure see the results of the tree of knowledge of good and evil  ,   and its fruits ..

Jesus said make the tree good , choose the good  make the law good !  , whom    good is of God granting grace   and can build upon   till and  when the perfect /complete comes    ,when  Jesus grants  you to eat of    the  [ Tree of Life ]  to completeness ......  pure and Holy in ONE SPIRIT , ONE GOD  , ONE TRUTH AND WAY AND LIFE .


Sorry I got  carried away  :sigh:
 

[rosered]

  Please ask yourself whom  will kill you  for believing   Jesus Christ testimony  ??


Matt 24


9And then they will deliver you to suffering, and they will kill you and you will be hated by all the nations because of my name.


10Then many will be subverted, and they will hate one another and will betray one another.  :sigh:


11And many false Prophets will arise and will deceive many.

12And because of the abundance of evil, the love of many will grow cold.


13But whoever will persevere until the end will have life.


14And this gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for the testimony of all the nations and then the end will come.


Colossians 1:6
that has come to you.


All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God.

    This is the truth also ,  by the grace of God     :HeartThrob:

  grace abounded the more   Romans 5 Death in Adam, Life in Christ
...19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,

so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; :eek:


but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,  :HeartThrob:


21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord....

  Sounds life Jesus Christ  has got this death thing under control     and having the keys   to open and close    and also being the Lord of the dead and Living

Both are in His power now ....  seems   the works of  satan/ adversary   , spirits    /gods and princes of this world are judged already  as death is   already defeated in Christ Jesus   and the victory is  HIS    as He  puts all enemies under his feet
 
as the last being death working in us   will be no more of that ...
I can see Paul's excitement as to not knowing anything but Jesus Christ and Him crucified    defeating  death for us all   whom believe Jesus Christ at His Word  and he  went on into LIFE  and completeness in the LOVE OF GOD  perfecting Him by the gift of GODS grace and Holy SPIRIT abundance    being this    WITNESS

[Cocoon]

Today, I think I made some progress, but I still feel like I failed to contend adequately against his points.  I finally found a fantastic verse that speaks my position more clearly and that is 1 John 4:17.   

The teacher handed out another pamphlet of verses this time on fear.  I will be honest.  I don't know how to contend against them.

Romans 11: 17-22  You see I don't think fear helps to live a sanctified life, but fear does have its place to keep us humble before God.  However, I don't know how to explain this fear.

Ephesians 6:5 and Philippians 2:12-13 and Hebrews 4:1, 10: 26-31.  1 Peter 1:17 and Revelation 14:7

The fear and trembling and working out your salvation has me stumped.  You see I see that we can achieve a sense of salvation in this life.  There is something about minding the Spirit that brings about a saving peace and certain kinds of trouble and also the hope helps to save us from despair when we suffer in this world.  However, I can understand the fear and trembling.  The ramifications of misunderstanding this verses are huge, and I feel inadequate to handle them.  I only lean upon the firm foundation that I have of Romans, but I am honest to say I don't understand all of it. 

Thanks for any help. By the way, I studied a lot of Dr. Stephen Jones works and it was his understanding of the law that helped me to see UR.

[Cocoon]

Never mind on the fear and trembling.  I rest easy now.  I read something Brother Gary wrote, and I am satisfied.  I knew it had to be a translation error.  Alas you can't win many hearts over on that accord though. Its only those that want to hear it that will hear it.

[Ross]

True love casts out all fear; ergo these people have yet to experience true love.

Amen on 1 John 4;17. Then on to the next verse, 18.
                             " There is NO fear in love, but perfect love DRIVES OUT FEAR because fear has to do with punishment,
                                so the one who fears has not been perfected in love."

Being converted from mans' definition of love to the reality of true love I.M.O opens the heart to why we are really here.

Eph 3;18-20 "In order that you may be empowered to grasp with all the saints what is the breadth and length,
                    the height and depth, and to KNOW the love of Christ which SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE,
                     that YOU may be FILLED UP TO THE FULNESS OF GOD.
                  Now to the one who is able to do far more abundantly BEYOND all that we ask or imagine, according to the power
                  that is working within us."

[eaglesway]

Luv that verse :0)

[Cocoon]

I feel so amazed by you all. You know the teacher stopped me after class and told me he was having a hard time understanding what I was trying to say.  I took the opportunity to tell him my concerns of pride when one thought they could sanctify themselves.  The teacher is a nice guy, and he isn't completely self righteous.  I saw the fear in his eyes.  He said he hoped he didn't come off as having it altogether as he wasn't, and there was fear in him.  I saw the old me in him, and I was sorry for him.  I understand that fear very much.  Pray for him.  He is being influenced by some elders in the church.  He is a young guy.  Very enthusiastic for sure.  He always says we must be bereans even though he doesn't read his verses in context.  I feel confident the Spirit is doing a work in it, but I don't think I am playing any part in it.  He doesn't hear me at all.  I was pretty clear when I said he was reading what he wanted to read in verses and yet he asked me to send him an email explaining why I had a problem with his understanding. 

Contending with his verses has helped me though.  I feel ever more sure about what the Spirit has taught me.  Its easy to just get comfortable and avoid that which makes you uncomfortable.  The verses the teacher challenges me with always make me uncomfortable at first, but when I take the time to look deeper, the Spirit always gives me even more comfort in what He has taught me.

[marie glen]

This is a great thread with some very good posts!! Hello, Cocoon! :hiya:

I think the way of faith (as justification) is a narrow path.. with wide ditches on either side one can get bogged down in.. one ditch being "the law"/legalism, and the other being "license" - I think this is what goes along with "work out your salvation" - work out our trustful rest in Him.. (which the sunday school teacher is trying to do, but his view of the arrow path, it looks like, is like some others.. and not the true narrow path..

Galatians 5:4 - (NIV) - "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
                  (Amplified Version) _ "You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God's unmerited favor and blessing]."


--- In His Sermon on the Mount Jesus showed how the law isn't really good enough! ..not good enough to not murder, but don't hate/dislike for no reason... not good enough to not commit adultery, but don't commit it in the heart/mind..

Even Jesus said "why do you call me good? there is only One who is Good"... Only ONE source of goodness! And He is the only way that actually works.. as others pointed out.. the law was a tutor (babysitter), holy and wonderful but lacks power to transform..

Mixing law with grace, robs the gospel of its POWER. (I believe you are right to be concerned, as teaching law with grace will push away, not draw precious babes near to their heavenly Father. They must have the trust/boldness to draw near (Hebrews 4?) to He, who transforms..

....Stumbling at the stumbling block.. And, it's hard for the flesh (carnal flawed nature) to admit "in me is no good thing" - All 'good' coming only from Him.. we must see our own righteousness as the true rags it is and can only ever be..

"Love" as also posted in this tread, "is the fulfilling of the the law" for "love works no ill" - Jesus said "I give to you a new commandment - love" - if we truly love God we will draw near. He rubs off onto us, and we WILL love our fellow person.. "against such there is no law" Galatians 5:23.
    :Peace2: God bless! :Pray:

[Ross]

  I saw the old me in him, and I was sorry for him.  I understand that fear very much.

Amen! I.M.O part of being shown the old you so as to appreciate and see the difference Christ actually makes, which is greater than self-effort.

  I feel confident the Spirit is doing a work in it, but I don't think I am playing any part in it.

Another amen!

Contending with his verses has helped me though.  I feel ever more sure about what the Spirit has taught me.  Its easy to just get comfortable and avoid that which makes you uncomfortable.  The verses the teacher challenges me with always make me uncomfortable at first, but when I take the time to look deeper, the Spirit always gives me even more comfort in what He has taught me.

I.M.O part of that learning and being shown the right interpretation of scriptures as against mans' opinions.


1 Cor 3;4-7 " For when one says,
                                              'I follow Paul'
                   and another says,
                                             ' I follow Apollos'
                   are you not like everyone else?
                   What then is Apollos? What then is Paul? Servants through whom you came to believe,
                   EVEN AS THE LORD ASSIGNED TO EACH OF US.
                   I planted, Apollos watered,
                   BUT GOD HAS BEEN CAUSING THE GROWTH."

So much to learn- and unlimited time in the spirit.

1 Cor 3;21-23 " So then let no one boast with respect to men.
                       For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or the present,
                       or the future,
                      ALL are yours, and YOU are Christ's, and Christ is God's."

Have a great day
                   

[GodIsLove]

Purgatory:
adjective-archaic
1.
having the quality of cleansing or purifying.
"infernal punishments are purgatory and medicinal"

I believe all will be purified, some are starting the process now and some haven't begun yet (or maybe all are in the process--allowing some to descend into darkness in some way could be part of the process ("given over to Satan for the destruction of flesh so that the spirit can be saved").

While the church has distorted the meaning of purgatory it really just means to purify. God does this to us all so that we can become like Christ and so God can eventually be all-in-all.

That being said, I don't agree with your teacher's beliefs. I commend you for staying in the class--I would have left I think. You may be there for a reason to help the teacher. It may not seem like it is sinking in but I do think you are planting seeds. I feel for him, that fear consumes.

[Cocoon]

Thanks God is Love.   

Today went no better.  I felt so confident in 1 John 4: 15-18 would settle things, but the teacher challenged me with Loving God is obeying God and Believing is obeying verses.  Then he asked me if I thought I was "perfected in love."  I didn't answer yes though I feel I am because I knew that he understood the verse to mean without sin. Maybe I should have said confidently yes but I feel I would just come off as self righteous and arrogant. 

This teacher knows ever verse in the Bible that makes my understanding look way off.  And this is only because he takes everything out of context.  It makes this an impossible task, but seriously today I was sure that the fire alarms would be going off in class today.   He said we will suffer consequences for our sins even the ones before we became saved.   :dontknow:  I am like seriously everyone must be a bunch of goodie-too shoes to not be a little scared about this idea.  And of course that is what the teacher wants us to feel.  Then I've been praying and thinking about this whole thing.  There has to be something decisive that could clear up that matter, and then the Spirit hit me.  What would solve this whole debacle is knowing clearly what the work of Jesus accomplished for us.  Does it cover our sins or merely make us have an open relationship with God?  You see the teacher only believes that it gives us eternal life with God but nothing more.  Of course, he contradicts himself in his argument and I am hoping everyone is just as confused as I am about what this teacher believes.  Confusion is much better than I think believing this kind of teaching.   :eek:

Anyway, if you have some verses and ideas on this let me know.  You guys have been so helpful so far.   

I am thinking the wages of sin is death is an important exploration but I am going to have to get out some of my handy dandy tools to hash through this.  I know this stuff in my heart but sadly I can't just quote it off hand.  I am sure I would be better off if I could and so I am challenged to do a bit more scripture memorizing.

Thanks.

[Ross]

  Then he asked me if I thought I was "perfected in love."  I didn't answer yes though I feel I am because I knew that he understood the verse to mean without sin. Maybe I should have said confidently yes but I feel I would just come off as self righteous and arrogant. 

We are indeed perfected in love because Jesus love is without fault. After all He died for us and was completely successful.
Because of Christ we are without sin in God's eye.

Rom 8;1 " There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Rom 8;14 " For all those who are led by the spirit are the SONS OF GOD. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading back
                  to fear, but you received the spirit of adoption."
Rom 8;31 " What then shall we say in response to these things?
                 If God is for us WHO CAN BE AGAINST US? "
Rom 8;38,39 " For I AM CONVINCED that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present NOR THINGS TO COME,
                     nor powers, nor height, nor depth, NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING WILL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US FROM
                    THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD."

Interesting how Christ was always speaking against the scribes and Pharisees. Did not try to convert them. Knew they were there for a reason.
Rom 9;31,32 " But Israel, even though it pursued a law that would produce righteousness, DID NOT ATTAIN IT.
                 Why not?
                Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works."

Rom 10;2-4 " For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE.
                    For IGNORING the righteousness THAT COMES FROM GOD,
                    and seeking to establish their own,
                     THEY DID NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.
                    For Christ is the end of the law, so NOW there is righteousness for everyone who believes."

Rom 11;6 " And if it is by grace it is NO LONGER ON THE BASIS OF WORKS OTHERWISE THE GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE."

Rom 11;32 " For God has consigned ALL to disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL"

Ergo,
Rom 12;2 " Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern the will of
                 God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

I recall the same types of discussions at my church before being thrown out. The ministers did not like the truth which literally sets us free- seems they thing they need to do the work Christ fulfilled instead of just proclaiming the truth that Christ paid in full for us.

Rom 5;18,19 " Therefore, just as one man's transgression brought condemnation for ALL men,
                      so also one man's righteous act brought life and justification for ALL men.
                      For just as through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,
                      so also through one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."

1 Tim 2;6 " Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL, the witness at the proper time."

I.M.O not everyone's proper time yet- but there are ages to come which will be their age to learn.
Press on Cocoon. Seems we go through this to teach us a lot of truth and open our hearts to true love.

1 John 3;14 " We KNOW that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.
                    Whoever does not love remains in the realm of death."

1 John 4;19 " WE LOVE BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US."

Amen.

[Cocoon]

I feel like I know the inevitable.  I will end up leaving or getting kicked out, and I ask myself, "why can't I just sit in regular service and just blend in like the rest?"  Why do I find myself in Sunday School? 

I can't cut myself from the Church.  I have four kids to raise and they need to learn to love the body of Christ faults and all.  I love the body of Christ.  I look pass the Pharisees, and I am hoping for God's children to hear, to question "authority" and ask God for themselves.  I can't abandon them.  I feel that is what is wrong with the church.  Too many of us got hurt and run out of the church, and we just rolled over and let it happen.  I don't think we should be contentious, but move on to the next church and keep plugging away. 

I think it will make us like doctors.  Overtime, we will gain such wisdom and clarity of the scriptures, that we will wield the sword of Christ and bring the care of surgical removal of cancers without butchering the body of Christ.      Right now, I feel like I am wielding the scriptures like a hack saw, but what if God wants us to learn the care of wielding his sword like a great doctor?  what if this is only gained by experience, and we have the grace of God to cover us as we learn?  Too many of us have given up on the church  but who are we really giving up on? God? 

I hear so many of you leaving the church, and I left for a time too.  But I left to get fixed, and now that I have a better foundation, I feel called back.  I just want you all to come back to the body.  There are plenty in the body like us who are hungry.  We must look past the pharisees and see the hungry people.  Heck I use to be a pharisee.  We could be there to intercede for them too.

It's not like we don't use discretion.  We must use discretion in order to cultivate peace with our brothers in Christ.  We must stand for truth but in love we consider how best to apply truth so that it can effectually work in them.  It's a learning process, but we have the Spirit with us.   I do not believe it is an impossible task.  We should exhort one another to tend to the body.  We must not isolate ourselves.  We must accept that babes in Christ bite and hit one another because they don't know any better.  We must accept that it isn't personal when they bite the loving hand that is trying to feed them. 

I hate to break it to everyone but Jesus might be 30 or more years out, and that is lot of time where we could be tending to the body of Christ.  Let them kick us out.  Let them hurt us.  We can love them like Jesus and Stephen and Paul and John.  We can handle their coldness because we know that we too were once cold to God and yet He died on the cross for us anyway.  To come out of the Ladocean church doesn't mean to abandon them but to not be like them. We are going to miss out on the education that God has for us because we refuse to be hurt by others.   But it is by persecution that we understand the power of Christ and his wisdom.  If this was the avenue for Christ to be the full manifested Son of God, why would it be any different for us? 

To rule and reign with Christ only comes by those who suffer with Christ.   Why?  Because it is only in those moments of persecution that love has the most power to overcome.   The blood of the martyrs accomplished many great things in our history, and we must not shirk back by hurt feelings and rejections, but in all meekness and humbleness we must submit to the needs of the church and minister where we can as the Holy Spirit equips us.  We mustn't be discouraged by rejection and removals.   Instead, we must ponder on how we can improve our strategy by considering how the Holy Spirit teaches us and how He presents the gospel in such an orderly fashion.

A great work lies ahead and I want us all to be encouraged not to give up and not to think that we have no part to play in the church.   :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Interesting how Christ was always speaking against the scribes and Pharisees. Did not try to convert them. Knew they were there for a reason.
Rom 9;31,32 " But Israel, even though it pursued a law that would produce righteousness, DID NOT ATTAIN IT.
                 Why not?
                Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works."

Rom 10;2-4 " For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE.
                    For IGNORING the righteousness THAT COMES FROM GOD,
                    and seeking to establish their own,
                     THEY DID NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.
                    For Christ is the end of the law, so NOW there is righteousness for everyone who believes."

Amen, Ross.. (to the rest of the verses you quoted also!)

- - "Interesting how Christ was always speaking against the scribes and Pharisees...

....But Israel, even though it pursued a law that would produce righteousness, DID NOT ATTAIN IT.
                 Why not?
                Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works."

...they have a zeal for God, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE.
                    For IGNORING the righteousness THAT COMES FROM GOD,
                    and seeking to establish their own,
                     THEY DID NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.."

They did not submit to God. And sometimes (Paul wrote) the "judaizers" are motivated by trying to reap followers to their selves.. (just a thought that came to mind..)

"For Christ is the end of the law, so NOW there is righteousness for everyone who believes."

"Did not try to convert them.." but others, like Nicodemus, asked Him questions, and Joseph of Arimathea listened.. But Jesus also said about some "let the blind lead the blind.." After a while we just have to shake the dust off our feet.. Or stay where we're at! All according to what and where He leads.
   "Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess" - I recently worshiped with a church of mostly young folks.. began as a home church group.. growing and spreading quite a bit, it seems. (This wasn't a U.R. church, but I didn't hear any hell preaching.) Lately I've been wondering about U.R. believers starting churches.. As I read in my booklet when I sent away for a certificate so I could officiate at my son's wedding recently, said I was ordained and can start my own church.. And really, it's not like preachers have to be college (taught in the faith) graduates, taught or learned in the faith, yes, but a lot of colleges err quite a bit! And that's not even taking into account the myths of 'hell' or annihilation.. or "law mixed with grace"..
:Peace2: God bless!

[RonnyTX]

Never mind on the fear and trembling.  I rest easy now.  I read something Brother Gary wrote, and I am satisfied.  I knew it had to be a translation error.  Alas you can't win many hearts over on that accord though. Its only those that want to hear it that will hear it.

Ronny to Cocoon:
Maybe this is the article, that you're thinking about?  http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/fear.htm  I know I've read it before today and or one that was much like it and on the tentmaker webpage. Sure is a good article. :-)

And I've had one or more people, in online groups, tell me that I should fear God.  I would ask them, how can I fear God when God has proven to me, how greatly God/Jesus Christ loves me? :-)  And I may of mentioned to them too, about the many times that Jesus Christ told the earliest disciples, to fear not. Well, that was always the end of the conversation on such. After my saying the above, the person would not come back and tell me, why they thought I should fear God and or where they thought that, was in the bible.  And I simply believe, that too many people think we should all fear God, simply because they have been taught to believe that, in whatever denominational church, they happen to be a member of.  And I was never taught to fear God, in the local church I grew up in; but I was falsely taught there, to way too highly look up to, whatever the pastor said and whatever my churches' beliefs were. The fear I was given, was about what might happen, if my pastor and church elders found out, that I didn't agree with them on everything and if I wasn't just as they thought I should be. So in church, from say 12 years old on up, I grew up with a lot of fear, in the local church.  And I never got that from God/Jesus Christ; but from some church elders.

[eaglesway]

Fear has torment. Love casts out all fear. Those who love God love one another.

Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

We who love God are in awe of the beauty of His love.

Those who hate God fear because fear has torment, and everyone who fears is not perfected(mature) in love.

[Ross]

Fear has torment. Love casts out all fear. Those who love God love one another.

Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

We who love God are in awe of the beauty of His love.

Those who hate God fear because fear has torment, and everyone who fears is not perfected(mature) in love.

Amen!
Removing the shutters from the eyes of mankind to the reality of the true God will enhance life incredibly well. Will also define true love.
The truth removes those shutters.
An example that comes to mind is the one about the huge Clydesdale horse. So much power, yet can be distracted from the work- so shutters are put on to keep the horse on the right path. Mankind seems to have many shutters to the truth. But this would be so that they learn at the right pace for every individual.
Another picture comes to mind about the camel going through the eye of the needle. Turns out that the eye of the needle is an actual gate in the wall which is used when the main gate is closed. So coming up to that gate the camel has to be stripped of all luggage, then get down on it's knees and crawl through the gate. Just like mankind will be stripped of false works and efforts so as to come through the narrow gate- Christ. The road is wide, but the gate is narrow.
Those who still are in fear are carrying the burdens of this life. Christ came to set us free, not instil more burdens.
Amazingly each one of us will be released from the bondage at our own appointed time. Some not until the next age.

[Cocoon]

Another picture comes to mind about the camel going through the eye of the needle. Turns out that the eye of the needle is an actual gate in the wall which is used when the main gate is closed. So coming up to that gate the camel has to be stripped of all luggage, then get down on it's knees and crawl through the gate. Just like mankind will be stripped of false works and efforts so as to come through the narrow gate- Christ. The road is wide, but the gate is narrow.
Those who still are in fear are carrying the burdens of this life. Christ came to set us free, not instil more burdens.
Amazingly each one of us will be released from the bondage at our own appointed time. Some not until the next age.

WhAT!  You just blew my mind!  I love this kind of stuff!

[eaglesway]

Fear has torment. Love casts out all fear. Those who love God love one another.

Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

We who love God are in awe of the beauty of His love.

Those who hate God fear because fear has torment, and everyone who fears is not perfected(mature) in love.

Amen!
Removing the shutters from the eyes of mankind to the reality of the true God will enhance life incredibly well. Will also define true love.
The truth removes those shutters.
An example that comes to mind is the one about the huge Clydesdale horse. So much power, yet can be distracted from the work- so shutters are put on to keep the horse on the right path. Mankind seems to have many shutters to the truth. But this would be so that they learn at the right pace for every individual.
Another picture comes to mind about the camel going through the eye of the needle. Turns out that the eye of the needle is an actual gate in the wall which is used when the main gate is closed. So coming up to that gate the camel has to be stripped of all luggage, then get down on it's knees and crawl through the gate. Just like mankind will be stripped of false works and efforts so as to come through the narrow gate- Christ. The road is wide, but the gate is narrow.
Those who still are in fear are carrying the burdens of this life. Christ came to set us free, not instil more burdens.
Amazingly each one of us will be released from the bondage at our own appointed time. Some not until the next age.

:iagree:

[Cocoon]

Well, this series has pretty much ended, and I just excused myself from the last session.  I was "gifted" a book and the first chapter was titled, "Tears in Heaven."  Why does everyone think its all happening in heaven?  Can one "gift" an essay of response?  That is the shame of today.  No one is willing to engage in legitimate dialogue though.  I would be happy to discuss the book, but that is not the intent of why the book was given.  It was given to correct me.

Interesting note.  I truly believe that physical events are manifestations of the spiritual.  The week the series was suppose to begin, the wind randomly blew off the roof of the very room in which the class was to take place.  Fortunately the roof was restored because of insurance.  It occurred to me that I should find comfort in this for despite the temporal removal of trusting in Jesus' works, all things would be restored because Jesus is our insurance.