So I am in this Sunday school class, and this teacher is being influenced by certain elders. There is one elder in the class that doesn't agree with this teacher, but he is moving with all wisdom and discretion. I am thinking there is maybe some invisible politics at play. I feel quite welcomed by most in the class, and I am content to stay. I am trying to offer up logic and thoughts for others to consider as the teachings have gotten out of hand. I did present my concern to the elder, and I think that his power must be limited for though the elder agreed with my concerns, this teacher is continuing on with his studies.
I am here to try to see if anyone can offer help to me. I think with great care and thought I could offer decisive verses that would add clarity. We all know that often the greatest problem is universalism, but I also believe that one can work around this deficiency and still add health to the body.
The teacher is providing verses that he wants people to consider. He wants them to consider the idea that we will reap consequences for our sins even though we believe in Jesus. He refuses to go into detail on what exactly are those consequences, and when I suggest that what is being considered is a heavenly purgatory, he is insist that this is not what he is saying. Well, I am not sure what else he could be saying. It is quite peculiar, and offers nothing else but an emphatic no to the idea that he is suggesting a heavenly purgatory.
Here are the verses he has us reviewing this week: Matthew 12:35-36, Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:16, Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:9-11, Galatians 6:7, 1 Peter 1:17, Colossians 3:23-25, 1 John 2:28, Revelation 22:11-12, Ecclesiastes 12:13-14,
Matthew 12:35-36 were easy enough because the following verse talks about being justified by our words. I just referred to being justified by faith. I used Paul's teachings in 2 Corinthians 9 to clarify Galatians 6:7.
You see there are several things doctrinally wrong with his point of view (free will and such) that I almost think it futile to offer much of anything else, but this teaching is quite dangerous to an infant in Christ. I think such doctrines of a heavenly purgatory would cause much despair when one does not know that sanctification is the work of God. It is hard to explain such deep theological discussion without a verse by verse study, and as you can see there is nothing verse by verse that this teacher is offering.
I know some will think that I should just leave the class and church altogether, but the pastor's teachings don't match this man's teachings. It is why I find him being a teacher as a peculiar matter. I know the elder in the class doesn't agree with this man's teachings either. But I find him either very careful because of political dynamics that I am unaware of or that he is unable to pin point why this man's teachings is wrong.
Either way please consider those in the class that could be easily influenced in a despairing way, and please help me to provide solid doctrine and insight into these verses. I feel slightly overwhelmed by the job and thought this place would surely be a good place to get help.
I agree that there are different levels of reward, but I don't agree that there are negative consequences to that which we do in the flesh and not in the spirit. Also, I would not be looking forward to Christ's return based on these teachings. It's not that I live a fleshly life for that life is mostly behind me. I have quite changed thanks to the Spirit. However, I have such an awful past that I would very much not like to account for at all. I'd like to think it disappeared when I put on the righteousness of Christ. This teacher does not think so. If that is what he believes, well I don't know how he isn't very much depressed all the time. Indeed, I should be very despairing altogether, and I once was before the Spirit taught me of who I am in Christ. We wonder why Pastors kill themselves witch such doctrine still running amuck in the church.
Well, any help at all would be appreciated. Thanks you so much.
G'day;
This issue has been going on for centuries.
Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. When He was tempted He merely quoted scriptures.
Seems your leader is under bondage to the law. When in this condition there is much of the legal scripture quoted to justify that stance.
Paul talks heaps about this very issue. He elaborates to what the Grace actually covers- EVERYTHING.
His teachings in Galations explain the law, the bondage about going back to the law- in that chat the statement about being crucified with Christ is, to me, the key; He says it is no longer I who lives, but Christ Who lives in me.
For me, that cuts out failure to get there because Christ is my life.
Romans 8;38,39 highlight that NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Before that point Paul says; vs 33 "It is God who justifies us."
Ephesians 2;4-10 Elaborate about Christ faith being used to justify us; He did not fail.
2 Cor 10;12 says a lot; For we would not dare classify or compare ourselves with some of them who are recommending themselves.
Rather, when they measure themselves by themselves, and compare themselves by themselves,
they are without understanding.
vs 18 " For it is not the one who recommends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord recommends."
2 Cor 11;14,15 state a lot.
2 Cor 11;3 says that there is simplicity and purity in Christ.
1 Cor 1;21-24 The simplicity again.
1 Cor 2;2 I know nothing among you except Christ crucified.
With all that Romans 5;18 "Just as one man's transgressions brought condemnation for all men,
so also one man's righteous act brought justification and life for all men."
Would seem you are there for a reason; as I said before when Christ was tempted He just used scriptures.
Hope this is useful.
Yes, that is very helpful. Thank you. I do prefer scriptures, and while I have a very good handle on them, this teacher challenges me with all sorts of verses. He quite knows how to stump me with verses about fearing , but when I try to point out that both have to be true otherwise we are calling God a hypocrite, he passes on to the next verse. I am not very good working on the whim. I pray a lot in the class.
The teacher isn't dreadful to me. He is nice as one can be. He reminds me of my old me. I had to be very much humbled to come to where I am today. I will share that one day. The problem is it took me quite some time of exploring UR before I became convinced and I don't have that kind of time in a classroom. Plus, I was very much influenced by Dr. Jones writings on the law. I have a deep love for the law now that I understand that Christ is the substance of them. Studying them is joy for me. It takes too much background information to express the Law in that way.
Thanks again.
You are welcome.
The whole purpose of the law is explained beautifully in Galations chapters 3 and 4.
for example;
Gal 3;24 " Thus the law was our disciplinarian UNTIL the time of Christ, so that we might be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by faith."
then;
Gal 4;2 " The heir is under the care of guardians and managers until the time determined by his father."
Gal 4;4,5 " But when the fullness of time had come, God sent His Son, born of a woman under law, to redeem those who were
under law so that we might receive adoption as sons."
Towards the end of chapter four the explanation of Israel still under the law, but the Jerusalem above freeing us from that law seems to be pointing out the difference and purpose of Christ fulfilling the law.
I.M.O this is the why the law deepened Paul's understanding of the whole need for the sacrifice to absolve us from the errors we make; but those errors are a part of learning right from wrong. The tree of knowledge is necessary for all mankind to be taught. Plus wisdom only comes through experience- so we need to go through this to grow in grace and knowledge.
All pretty awesome really KNOWING Christ covers all that.
May HE indeed bless you and teach you much.
Amen Ross
Also, sacrifice is the greatest form of love. ("No greater love has a man than this, to lay down His life for His friends").
We love and we make sacrifices in love, and that is higher than the law(light from without) and fulfills the law (meets the goal of the law and transcends it).
Thats why love covers a multitude of sins.
God is love, and Jesus is the radiance of the Father's glory, and Christ laying down His life on the cross for us is not only our salvation, deliverance and healing..... it is the Way, into which we are drawn as disciples of His, always growing in love- becoming more and more conformed to the image Christ from within- which as you expressed, is Paul's message in Galatians
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6
Paul goes on in the final chapter(Gal 6) to give some beautiful pointers on what that should look like.
Great thoughts guys .....
I believe you are doing a good job expressing your faith , speaking Words of Life over the death that is the fear all humanity [being the frail condition, weakness all are planted in /corruption ]that do not understand GOD nor His ways , Cocoon
Strength comes from Gods Spirit of Life, giving boldness to speak IN Christ / the anointed WORD in power , basically breathing on and in us all .
To think heaven has a punishment place is off thinking in my opinion ... Purgatory (Latin: Purgatorium, via Anglo-Norman and Old French) is an intermediate state after physical death in which those destined for heaven "undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven".
sos 8 Wear me as a signet ring on your heart,
as a ring on your hand.
Love is as overpowering as death.
Devotion is as unyielding as the grave.
Love's flames are flames of fire,
flames that come from Yah.
Love is strong is death and God is Love and if death is the last enemy to be defeated in Jesus Christ work on the cross , is to believe what He has done already . many scriptures tells us we do not understand the significance of death though the law of sin and death , nor the gift of Life though the work of the HOLY SPIRIT and giving the ''multiple gifts '' of the HOLY SPIRIT OF LIFE working in us all . Given an inheritance from the FATHER OF LIFE ,Jesus Christ being the One of a kind Son and first born of this nature [WORD OF TRUTH & SPIRIT OF TRUTH , the inner man of the heart that is not seen visibly with human eyes and yet Lives and does Honor the LIVING GOD AND FATHER .
I can see that many are doubting His work of defeating death and making it some how depend on them to save themselves still .
Which I am one whom sees a self righteous spirit at work in those whom still think it depends on any human effort and this is the subtle and crafty wisdom of the world that mixes them thoughts together causing Babylon to have a power over the people that do not have any spiritual understanding yet , but are as carnal babes in Christ [ 1Cor 3 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as fleshly--as to infants in Christ.]
That error to me is the sin of not seeing What God has always kept separate , What is above has always been a higher realm of Wisdom that is totally incorruptible and unchangeable and permanent Truth and a solid and straight path of The Living .GOD HIMSELF and that Glory .
and the below wisdom that is corruptible and temporary realm of thoughts that provoke doubts and fear and unstable thinking that is ever changing and never able to stand up to TRUTH and divides and separates us all .
Knowing the Scriptures speaks of unity and Oneness of the SPIRIT fail to believe it as TRUTH .
Like you said there are so many scriptures to prove this and yet being of the SAME ONE SPIRIT is not obvious as the world sees it ,because it is still in the darkness/ignorance of the womb or tomb process of GODS LAW .
Giving the impression that GOD has failed us all some how and that could NOT be any further from the TRUTH .. we see, not by natural sight but by faith believing as LIVING works are produced by the fruits of the Holy SPIRIT and Living Word working in us and though us as Gods desires are being fulfilled .
GOD FIRST and foremost place in our hearts /ONE HOLY SPIRIT / ONE GOD / ONE FAITH only , that all source and power of Love flows from , not many other spirits ruling over our hearts and loving one another as we love our own selves and desires to be doing gratifying the flesh[temporary and useless things ] and gratifying spiritual pride [power over the poor in spirit ].
The Holy Spirit has to rule over the flesh and also over the other spirits that call themselves gods , but are false liars and murderers and robbers and thieves stealing Gods glory for themselves and rule as gods over the peoples , these are the unclean spirits not of the Holy and pure ONE ..
There are two things that have been made clear to me BY GODS SPIRIT AND WORD OF LIFE ,
BOTH of these leads to death a first death , putting away the deeds of the flesh , give up your desire for temporary rulership of the body romans 8 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.
old adam's nature of disobedience [soul /life ]carnal as a beast running on emotional needs and feelings of power over weaker ones , devouring one another to be top dog , we see how our own kingdoms , nations and governments rule over the common man as politics with so much corruption and doing evil as they sit as kings of the earth
and the second death being of the wrong spirit, a god of this world , a prince , of the religious whore of the earth by mixing the flesh and spirit offspring and calling it god being Babylon that still is a rebellious adversary against the TRUTH
GOD has set a Day/LIGHT AND FIRE OF HIS JEALOUSY when He will destroy both by the WORD OF TRUTH BY THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH , and to the doom of both of these things , one has already been defeated by the cross of Jesus Christ and the finished work of the cross working though you , but if you cannot believe JESUS CHRIST in the core of your being , than the spirit of Babylon is ruling over you
Proof of the root is in the fruit ,[HOLY SPIRIT /TREE OF LIFE] you have passed from death to life .... 1 John 3 ;1413So do not be surprised, brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
LOVE EVERYONE as yourself because you want everyone to be saved as you are saved !!!!!! Babylon wants everyone to serve her desires and could care less about anyone else .... Ruling over everyone with this false sense of power over the poor in spirit seeking God , it is false religion at its finest seeking the praises of men and men worshipping men as gods appearing to do good and calling it good but evil/below wisdom is ruling their hearts that are so far away from God in TRUTH this is the reward of iniquity , ....
john 5 The Father and the Son
...23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life. 25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live....
LOVE GOD FIRST AND FOREMOST AND HIS WILL /DESIRE IS YOURS AS WELL
you can do nothings against the TRUTH and prosper eternally , but for the TRUTH , yes it is politics and religion the beast and the whore riding the beast whom are bearing the fruits of death [graves of the innocent ] and destruction and loss ... and these mindsets must bear the fruits meet for repentance a change of mind [carnal ] and heart [as gods ]Gen 3 For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
we can sure see the results of the tree of knowledge of good and evil , and its fruits ..
Jesus said make the tree good , choose the good make the law good ! , whom good is of God granting grace and can build upon till and when the perfect /complete comes ,when Jesus grants you to eat of the [ Tree of Life ] to completeness ...... pure and Holy in ONE SPIRIT , ONE GOD , ONE TRUTH AND WAY AND LIFE .
Sorry I got carried away :sigh:
Please ask yourself whom will kill you for believing Jesus Christ testimony ??
Matt 24
9And then they will deliver you to suffering, and they will kill you and you will be hated by all the nations because of my name.
10Then many will be subverted, and they will hate one another and will betray one another. :sigh:
11And many false Prophets will arise and will deceive many.
12And because of the abundance of evil, the love of many will grow cold.
13But whoever will persevere until the end will have life.
14And this gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for the testimony of all the nations and then the end will come.
Colossians 1:6
that has come to you.
All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God.
This is the truth also , by the grace of God :HeartThrob:
grace abounded the more Romans 5 Death in Adam, Life in Christ
...19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; :eek:
but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, :HeartThrob:
21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord....
Sounds life Jesus Christ has got this death thing under control and having the keys to open and close and also being the Lord of the dead and Living
Both are in His power now .... seems the works of satan/ adversary , spirits /gods and princes of this world are judged already as death is already defeated in Christ Jesus and the victory is HIS as He puts all enemies under his feet
as the last being death working in us will be no more of that ...
I can see Paul's excitement as to not knowing anything but Jesus Christ and Him crucified defeating death for us all whom believe Jesus Christ at His Word and he went on into LIFE and completeness in the LOVE OF GOD perfecting Him by the gift of GODS grace and Holy SPIRIT abundance being this WITNESS
Today, I think I made some progress, but I still feel like I failed to contend adequately against his points. I finally found a fantastic verse that speaks my position more clearly and that is 1 John 4:17.
The teacher handed out another pamphlet of verses this time on fear. I will be honest. I don't know how to contend against them.
Romans 11: 17-22 You see I don't think fear helps to live a sanctified life, but fear does have its place to keep us humble before God. However, I don't know how to explain this fear.
Ephesians 6:5 and Philippians 2:12-13 and Hebrews 4:1, 10: 26-31. 1 Peter 1:17 and Revelation 14:7
The fear and trembling and working out your salvation has me stumped. You see I see that we can achieve a sense of salvation in this life. There is something about minding the Spirit that brings about a saving peace and certain kinds of trouble and also the hope helps to save us from despair when we suffer in this world. However, I can understand the fear and trembling. The ramifications of misunderstanding this verses are huge, and I feel inadequate to handle them. I only lean upon the firm foundation that I have of Romans, but I am honest to say I don't understand all of it.
Thanks for any help. By the way, I studied a lot of Dr. Stephen Jones works and it was his understanding of the law that helped me to see UR.
Never mind on the fear and trembling. I rest easy now. I read something Brother Gary wrote, and I am satisfied. I knew it had to be a translation error. Alas you can't win many hearts over on that accord though. Its only those that want to hear it that will hear it.
True love casts out all fear; ergo these people have yet to experience true love.
Amen on 1 John 4;17. Then on to the next verse, 18.
" There is NO fear in love, but perfect love DRIVES OUT FEAR because fear has to do with punishment,
so the one who fears has not been perfected in love."
Being converted from mans' definition of love to the reality of true love I.M.O opens the heart to why we are really here.
Eph 3;18-20 "In order that you may be empowered to grasp with all the saints what is the breadth and length,
the height and depth, and to KNOW the love of Christ which SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE,
that YOU may be FILLED UP TO THE FULNESS OF GOD.
Now to the one who is able to do far more abundantly BEYOND all that we ask or imagine, according to the power
that is working within us."
Luv that verse :0)
I feel so amazed by you all. You know the teacher stopped me after class and told me he was having a hard time understanding what I was trying to say. I took the opportunity to tell him my concerns of pride when one thought they could sanctify themselves. The teacher is a nice guy, and he isn't completely self righteous. I saw the fear in his eyes. He said he hoped he didn't come off as having it altogether as he wasn't, and there was fear in him. I saw the old me in him, and I was sorry for him. I understand that fear very much. Pray for him. He is being influenced by some elders in the church. He is a young guy. Very enthusiastic for sure. He always says we must be bereans even though he doesn't read his verses in context. I feel confident the Spirit is doing a work in it, but I don't think I am playing any part in it. He doesn't hear me at all. I was pretty clear when I said he was reading what he wanted to read in verses and yet he asked me to send him an email explaining why I had a problem with his understanding.
Contending with his verses has helped me though. I feel ever more sure about what the Spirit has taught me. Its easy to just get comfortable and avoid that which makes you uncomfortable. The verses the teacher challenges me with always make me uncomfortable at first, but when I take the time to look deeper, the Spirit always gives me even more comfort in what He has taught me.
This is a great thread with some very good posts!! Hello, Cocoon! :hiya:
I think the way of faith (as justification) is a narrow path.. with wide ditches on either side one can get bogged down in.. one ditch being "the law"/legalism, and the other being "license" - I think this is what goes along with "work out your salvation" - work out our trustful rest in Him.. (which the sunday school teacher is trying to do, but his view of the arrow path, it looks like, is like some others.. and not the true narrow path..
Galatians 5:4 - (NIV) - "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
(Amplified Version) _ "You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God's unmerited favor and blessing]."
--- In His Sermon on the Mount Jesus showed how the law isn't really good enough! ..not good enough to not murder, but don't hate/dislike for no reason... not good enough to not commit adultery, but don't commit it in the heart/mind..
Even Jesus said "why do you call me good? there is only One who is Good"... Only ONE source of goodness! And He is the only way that actually works.. as others pointed out.. the law was a tutor (babysitter), holy and wonderful but lacks power to transform..
Mixing law with grace, robs the gospel of its POWER. (I believe you are right to be concerned, as teaching law with grace will push away, not draw precious babes near to their heavenly Father. They must have the trust/boldness to draw near (Hebrews 4?) to He, who transforms..
....Stumbling at the stumbling block.. And, it's hard for the flesh (carnal flawed nature) to admit "in me is no good thing" - All 'good' coming only from Him.. we must see our own righteousness as the true rags it is and can only ever be..
"Love" as also posted in this tread, "is the fulfilling of the the law" for "love works no ill" - Jesus said "I give to you a new commandment - love" - if we truly love God we will draw near. He rubs off onto us, and we WILL love our fellow person.. "against such there is no law" Galatians 5:23.
:Peace2: God bless! :Pray:
Quote from: Cocoon on October 19, 2016, 07:25:34 AM
I saw the old me in him, and I was sorry for him. I understand that fear very much.
Amen! I.M.O part of being shown the old you so as to appreciate and see the difference Christ actually makes, which is greater than self-effort.
Quote from: Cocoon on October 19, 2016, 07:25:34 AM
I feel confident the Spirit is doing a work in it, but I don't think I am playing any part in it.
Another amen!
Quote from: Cocoon on October 19, 2016, 07:25:34 AM
Contending with his verses has helped me though. I feel ever more sure about what the Spirit has taught me. Its easy to just get comfortable and avoid that which makes you uncomfortable. The verses the teacher challenges me with always make me uncomfortable at first, but when I take the time to look deeper, the Spirit always gives me even more comfort in what He has taught me.
I.M.O part of that learning and
being shown the right interpretation of scriptures as against mans' opinions.
1 Cor 3;4-7 " For when one says,
'I follow Paul'
and another says,
' I follow Apollos'
are you not like everyone else?
What then is Apollos? What then is Paul? Servants through whom you came to believe,
EVEN AS THE LORD ASSIGNED TO EACH OF US.
I planted, Apollos watered,
BUT GOD HAS BEEN CAUSING THE GROWTH."
So much to learn- and unlimited time in the spirit.
1 Cor 3;21-23 " So then let no one boast with respect to men.
For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or the present,
or the future,
ALL are yours, and YOU are Christ's, and Christ is God's."
Have a great day
Purgatory:
adjective-archaic
1.
having the quality of cleansing or purifying.
"infernal punishments are purgatory and medicinal"
I believe all will be purified, some are starting the process now and some haven't begun yet (or maybe all are in the process--allowing some to descend into darkness in some way could be part of the process ("given over to Satan for the destruction of flesh so that the spirit can be saved").
While the church has distorted the meaning of purgatory it really just means to purify. God does this to us all so that we can become like Christ and so God can eventually be all-in-all.
That being said, I don't agree with your teacher's beliefs. I commend you for staying in the class--I would have left I think. You may be there for a reason to help the teacher. It may not seem like it is sinking in but I do think you are planting seeds. I feel for him, that fear consumes.
Thanks God is Love.
Today went no better. I felt so confident in 1 John 4: 15-18 would settle things, but the teacher challenged me with Loving God is obeying God and Believing is obeying verses. Then he asked me if I thought I was "perfected in love." I didn't answer yes though I feel I am because I knew that he understood the verse to mean without sin. Maybe I should have said confidently yes but I feel I would just come off as self righteous and arrogant.
This teacher knows ever verse in the Bible that makes my understanding look way off. And this is only because he takes everything out of context. It makes this an impossible task, but seriously today I was sure that the fire alarms would be going off in class today. He said we will suffer consequences for our sins even the ones before we became saved. :dontknow: I am like seriously everyone must be a bunch of goodie-too shoes to not be a little scared about this idea. And of course that is what the teacher wants us to feel. Then I've been praying and thinking about this whole thing. There has to be something decisive that could clear up that matter, and then the Spirit hit me. What would solve this whole debacle is knowing clearly what the work of Jesus accomplished for us. Does it cover our sins or merely make us have an open relationship with God? You see the teacher only believes that it gives us eternal life with God but nothing more. Of course, he contradicts himself in his argument and I am hoping everyone is just as confused as I am about what this teacher believes. Confusion is much better than I think believing this kind of teaching. :eek:
Anyway, if you have some verses and ideas on this let me know. You guys have been so helpful so far.
I am thinking the wages of sin is death is an important exploration but I am going to have to get out some of my handy dandy tools to hash through this. I know this stuff in my heart but sadly I can't just quote it off hand. I am sure I would be better off if I could and so I am challenged to do a bit more scripture memorizing.
Thanks.
Quote from: Cocoon on October 24, 2016, 12:18:11 AM
Then he asked me if I thought I was "perfected in love." I didn't answer yes though I feel I am because I knew that he understood the verse to mean without sin. Maybe I should have said confidently yes but I feel I would just come off as self righteous and arrogant.
We are indeed perfected in love because Jesus love is without fault. After all He died for us and was completely successful.
Because of Christ we are without sin in God's eye.
Rom 8;1 " There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Rom 8;14 " For all those who are led by the spirit are the SONS OF GOD. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading back
to fear, but you received the spirit of adoption."
Rom 8;31 " What then shall we say in response to these things?
If God is for us WHO CAN BE AGAINST US? "
Rom 8;38,39 " For I AM CONVINCED that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present NOR THINGS TO COME,
nor powers, nor height, nor depth, NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING WILL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US FROM
THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD."
Interesting how Christ was always speaking against the scribes and Pharisees. Did not try to convert them. Knew they were there for a reason.
Rom 9;31,32 " But Israel, even though it pursued a law that would produce righteousness, DID NOT ATTAIN IT.
Why not?
Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works."
Rom 10;2-4 " For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE.
For IGNORING the righteousness THAT COMES FROM GOD,
and seeking to establish their own,
THEY DID NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.
For Christ is the end of the law, so NOW there is righteousness for everyone who believes."
Rom 11;6 " And if it is by grace it is NO LONGER ON THE BASIS OF WORKS OTHERWISE THE GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE."
Rom 11;32 " For God has consigned ALL to disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL"
Ergo,
Rom 12;2 " Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern the will of
God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."
I recall the same types of discussions at my church before being thrown out. The ministers did not like the truth which literally sets us free- seems they thing they need to do the work Christ fulfilled instead of just proclaiming the truth that Christ paid in full for us.
Rom 5;18,19 " Therefore, just as one man's transgression brought condemnation for ALL men,
so also one man's righteous act brought life and justification for ALL men.
For just as through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,
so also through one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."
1 Tim 2;6 " Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL, the witness at the proper time."
I.M.O not everyone's proper time yet- but there are ages to come which will be their age to learn.
Press on Cocoon. Seems we go through this to teach us a lot of truth and open our hearts to true love.
1 John 3;14 " We KNOW that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.
Whoever does not love remains in the realm of death."
1 John 4;19 " WE LOVE BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US."
Amen.
I feel like I know the inevitable. I will end up leaving or getting kicked out, and I ask myself, "why can't I just sit in regular service and just blend in like the rest?" Why do I find myself in Sunday School?
I can't cut myself from the Church. I have four kids to raise and they need to learn to love the body of Christ faults and all. I love the body of Christ. I look pass the Pharisees, and I am hoping for God's children to hear, to question "authority" and ask God for themselves. I can't abandon them. I feel that is what is wrong with the church. Too many of us got hurt and run out of the church, and we just rolled over and let it happen. I don't think we should be contentious, but move on to the next church and keep plugging away.
I think it will make us like doctors. Overtime, we will gain such wisdom and clarity of the scriptures, that we will wield the sword of Christ and bring the care of surgical removal of cancers without butchering the body of Christ. Right now, I feel like I am wielding the scriptures like a hack saw, but what if God wants us to learn the care of wielding his sword like a great doctor? what if this is only gained by experience, and we have the grace of God to cover us as we learn? Too many of us have given up on the church but who are we really giving up on? God?
I hear so many of you leaving the church, and I left for a time too. But I left to get fixed, and now that I have a better foundation, I feel called back. I just want you all to come back to the body. There are plenty in the body like us who are hungry. We must look past the pharisees and see the hungry people. Heck I use to be a pharisee. We could be there to intercede for them too.
It's not like we don't use discretion. We must use discretion in order to cultivate peace with our brothers in Christ. We must stand for truth but in love we consider how best to apply truth so that it can effectually work in them. It's a learning process, but we have the Spirit with us. I do not believe it is an impossible task. We should exhort one another to tend to the body. We must not isolate ourselves. We must accept that babes in Christ bite and hit one another because they don't know any better. We must accept that it isn't personal when they bite the loving hand that is trying to feed them.
I hate to break it to everyone but Jesus might be 30 or more years out, and that is lot of time where we could be tending to the body of Christ. Let them kick us out. Let them hurt us. We can love them like Jesus and Stephen and Paul and John. We can handle their coldness because we know that we too were once cold to God and yet He died on the cross for us anyway. To come out of the Ladocean church doesn't mean to abandon them but to not be like them. We are going to miss out on the education that God has for us because we refuse to be hurt by others. But it is by persecution that we understand the power of Christ and his wisdom. If this was the avenue for Christ to be the full manifested Son of God, why would it be any different for us?
To rule and reign with Christ only comes by those who suffer with Christ. Why? Because it is only in those moments of persecution that love has the most power to overcome. The blood of the martyrs accomplished many great things in our history, and we must not shirk back by hurt feelings and rejections, but in all meekness and humbleness we must submit to the needs of the church and minister where we can as the Holy Spirit equips us. We mustn't be discouraged by rejection and removals. Instead, we must ponder on how we can improve our strategy by considering how the Holy Spirit teaches us and how He presents the gospel in such an orderly fashion.
A great work lies ahead and I want us all to be encouraged not to give up and not to think that we have no part to play in the church. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Ross on October 24, 2016, 03:53:51 AM
Interesting how Christ was always speaking against the scribes and Pharisees. Did not try to convert them. Knew they were there for a reason.
Rom 9;31,32 " But Israel, even though it pursued a law that would produce righteousness, DID NOT ATTAIN IT.
Why not?
Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works."
Rom 10;2-4 " For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE.
For IGNORING the righteousness THAT COMES FROM GOD,
and seeking to establish their own,
THEY DID NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.
For Christ is the end of the law, so NOW there is righteousness for everyone who believes."
Amen, Ross.. (to the rest of the verses you quoted also!)
- - "
Interesting how Christ was always speaking against the scribes and Pharisees...
....But Israel, even though it pursued a law that would produce righteousness, DID NOT ATTAIN IT.
Why not?
Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works."
...they have a zeal for God, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE.
For IGNORING the righteousness THAT COMES FROM GOD,
and seeking to establish their own,
THEY DID NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.."
They did not submit to God. And sometimes (Paul wrote) the "judaizers" are motivated by trying to reap followers to their selves.. (just a thought that came to mind..)
"For Christ is the end of the law, so NOW there is righteousness for everyone who believes."
"
Did not try to convert them.." but others, like Nicodemus, asked Him questions, and Joseph of Arimathea listened.. But Jesus also said about some "let the blind lead the blind.." After a while we just have to shake the dust off our feet.. Or stay where we're at! All according to what and where He leads.
"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess" - I recently worshiped with a church of mostly young folks.. began as a home church group.. growing and spreading quite a bit, it seems. (This wasn't a U.R. church, but I didn't hear any hell preaching.) Lately I've been wondering about U.R. believers starting churches.. As I read in my booklet when I sent away for a certificate so I could officiate at my son's wedding recently, said I was ordained and can start my own church.. And really, it's not like preachers have to be college (taught in the faith) graduates, taught or learned in the faith, yes, but a lot of colleges err quite a bit! And that's not even taking into account the myths of 'hell' or annihilation.. or "law mixed with grace"..
:Peace2: God bless!
Quote from: Cocoon on October 17, 2016, 06:46:01 AM
Never mind on the fear and trembling. I rest easy now. I read something Brother Gary wrote, and I am satisfied. I knew it had to be a translation error. Alas you can't win many hearts over on that accord though. Its only those that want to hear it that will hear it.
Ronny to Cocoon:
Maybe this is the article, that you're thinking about? http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/fear.htm I know I've read it before today and or one that was much like it and on the tentmaker webpage. Sure is a good article. :-)
And I've had one or more people, in online groups, tell me that I should fear God. I would ask them, how can I fear God when God has proven to me, how greatly God/Jesus Christ loves me? :-) And I may of mentioned to them too, about the many times that Jesus Christ told the earliest disciples, to fear not. Well, that was always the end of the conversation on such. After my saying the above, the person would not come back and tell me, why they thought I should fear God and or where they thought that, was in the bible. And I simply believe, that too many people think we should all fear God, simply because they have been taught to believe that, in whatever denominational church, they happen to be a member of. And I was never taught to fear God, in the local church I grew up in; but I was falsely taught there, to way too highly look up to, whatever the pastor said and whatever my churches' beliefs were. The fear I was given, was about what might happen, if my pastor and church elders found out, that I didn't agree with them on everything and if I wasn't just as they thought I should be. So in church, from say 12 years old on up, I grew up with a lot of fear, in the local church. And I never got that from God/Jesus Christ; but from some church elders.
Fear has torment. Love casts out all fear. Those who love God love one another.
Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
We who love God are in awe of the beauty of His love.
Those who hate God fear because fear has torment, and everyone who fears is not perfected(mature) in love.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 25, 2016, 09:22:13 AM
Fear has torment. Love casts out all fear. Those who love God love one another.
Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
We who love God are in awe of the beauty of His love.
Those who hate God fear because fear has torment, and everyone who fears is not perfected(mature) in love.
Amen!
Removing the shutters from the eyes of mankind to the reality of the true God will enhance life incredibly well. Will also define true love.
The truth removes those shutters.
An example that comes to mind is the one about the huge Clydesdale horse. So much power, yet can be distracted from the work- so shutters are put on to keep the horse on the right path. Mankind seems to have many shutters to the truth. But this would be so that they learn at the right pace for every individual.
Another picture comes to mind about the camel going through the eye of the needle. Turns out that the eye of the needle is an actual gate in the wall which is used when the main gate is closed. So coming up to that gate the camel has to be stripped of all luggage, then get down on it's knees and crawl through the gate. Just like mankind will be stripped of false works and efforts so as to come through the narrow gate- Christ. The road is wide, but the gate is narrow.
Those who still are in fear are carrying the burdens of this life. Christ came to set us free, not instil more burdens.
Amazingly each one of us will be released from the bondage at our own appointed time. Some not until the next age.
Quote from: Ross on October 26, 2016, 03:34:19 AM
Another picture comes to mind about the camel going through the eye of the needle. Turns out that the eye of the needle is an actual gate in the wall which is used when the main gate is closed. So coming up to that gate the camel has to be stripped of all luggage, then get down on it's knees and crawl through the gate. Just like mankind will be stripped of false works and efforts so as to come through the narrow gate- Christ. The road is wide, but the gate is narrow.
Those who still are in fear are carrying the burdens of this life. Christ came to set us free, not instil more burdens.
Amazingly each one of us will be released from the bondage at our own appointed time. Some not until the next age.
WhAT! You just blew my mind! I love this kind of stuff!
Quote from: Ross on October 26, 2016, 03:34:19 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 25, 2016, 09:22:13 AM
Fear has torment. Love casts out all fear. Those who love God love one another.
Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
We who love God are in awe of the beauty of His love.
Those who hate God fear because fear has torment, and everyone who fears is not perfected(mature) in love.
Amen!
Removing the shutters from the eyes of mankind to the reality of the true God will enhance life incredibly well. Will also define true love.
The truth removes those shutters.
An example that comes to mind is the one about the huge Clydesdale horse. So much power, yet can be distracted from the work- so shutters are put on to keep the horse on the right path. Mankind seems to have many shutters to the truth. But this would be so that they learn at the right pace for every individual.
Another picture comes to mind about the camel going through the eye of the needle. Turns out that the eye of the needle is an actual gate in the wall which is used when the main gate is closed. So coming up to that gate the camel has to be stripped of all luggage, then get down on it's knees and crawl through the gate. Just like mankind will be stripped of false works and efforts so as to come through the narrow gate- Christ. The road is wide, but the gate is narrow.
Those who still are in fear are carrying the burdens of this life. Christ came to set us free, not instil more burdens.
Amazingly each one of us will be released from the bondage at our own appointed time. Some not until the next age.
:iagree:
Well, this series has pretty much ended, and I just excused myself from the last session. I was "gifted" a book and the first chapter was titled, "Tears in Heaven." Why does everyone think its all happening in heaven? Can one "gift" an essay of response? That is the shame of today. No one is willing to engage in legitimate dialogue though. I would be happy to discuss the book, but that is not the intent of why the book was given. It was given to correct me.
Interesting note. I truly believe that physical events are manifestations of the spiritual. The week the series was suppose to begin, the wind randomly blew off the roof of the very room in which the class was to take place. Fortunately the roof was restored because of insurance. It occurred to me that I should find comfort in this for despite the temporal removal of trusting in Jesus' works, all things would be restored because Jesus is our insurance.
Quote from: Cocoon on November 16, 2016, 06:48:31 AM
It occurred to me that I should find comfort in this for despite the temporal removal of trusting in Jesus' works, all things would be restored because Jesus is our insurance.
:thumbsup: After all; His love NEVER fails.
How wonderful it is to be able to "rest in Him" concerning all things! :cloud9:
Quote from: Ross on November 16, 2016, 08:22:25 AM
Quote from: Cocoon on November 16, 2016, 06:48:31 AM
It occurred to me that I should find comfort in this for despite the temporal removal of trusting in Jesus' works, all things would be restored because Jesus is our insurance.
:thumbsup: After all; His love NEVER fails.
:iagree: :iagree:
Quote from: Cocoon on November 16, 2016, 06:48:31 AM
Well, this series has pretty much ended, and I just excused myself from the last session. I was "gifted" a book and the first chapter was titled, "Tears in Heaven." Why does everyone think its all happening in heaven? Can one "gift" an essay of response? That is the shame of today. No one is willing to engage in legitimate dialogue though. I would be happy to discuss the book, but that is not the intent of why the book was given. It was given to correct me.
..it gets too stressful after a while.. (and accomplishes very little..)
Quote from: Cocoon on November 16, 2016, 06:48:31 AM
Interesting note. I truly believe that physical events are manifestations of the spiritual. The week the series was suppose to begin, the wind randomly blew off the roof of the very room in which the class was to take place...
..since no one else noticed.. must have been a note to you! little dramatic.. (good thing to keep that class in prayer..?! such warfare going on all over.. But all per God's will.. :smile: )
Can you believe it? I am still showing up to this class. They are very nice to me despite it all. We have begun studying evil, suffering and the goodness of God by Gregory Koukl. The gentleman leading the class desires to prepare Christians with the hard questions that people have that cause them to reject God.
Well, like any series that doesn't accept UR, the answers offered offer little satisfaction. I pointed this out and I think begrudgingly everyone felt the same. Free Will was blamed for everything and when I tried to ask if God's hands were tied by man's free will, I think a stirred a pot. I pressed further and put forth the liability laws of the Bible and asked whether God was liable or not being owner of all things. I was pot stirring for sure, but they are so kind to me. They let me put forth my questions but no one really answers my questions. One even said, "sometimes we might not like God's answers." How true. I think I had quite a struggle with UR. Dr Jones presentation of the liability laws were a huge influence in my decision to concede that UR is indeed true.
One person in the class questioned me on the liability laws. She asked if I thought God owed me. I surprised myself with a response (of which I feel was the Spirit), "God owes it to His character not me." She was taken back at the response and offered nothing. What can you say to that? Idk. It's been a response that has echoed in my mind as if it were meant for me mostly and not her. I still have to be convinced of UR daily I am sad to say. You must understand I was quite deluded once and so I am ever concsious of my weakness to be deluded again.
Anyway, I am learning lots. Mostly, how to present myself humbly and meekly. Not something that comes naturally and I was reading Origen's homilies on Exodus and I was struck to the heart by one of his teachings on the law of two men fighting and accidentally hurting a pregnant woman. Well, prepare to have your mind blow for this teaching is good.
You see he equates this law to a spiritual warning for the church. For all of us are pregnant with the seed ofChrist which I described to my children as the person inside of us desiring to be Christ. Indeed the church is filled today with brothers and sisters striving against one another with contention and in the midst of the fighting is all these people pregnant with the seed of Christ. What happens is these "women" get hurt in the contention so much that they lose the seed of Christ within them and are unable to bring forth the child that is to endure unto the end. He warns that those who strive in such a manner would be held responsible for the damage they caused. Eye for Eye being the spiritual eye. Tooth for a tooth that is the ability to chew and discern the word. Wowzers! Right?!
Well I thought so but boy was I awfully mournful for I have strove with many and who knows how much damage I have caused. I put forth my debts against man before God and I am thankful He is able to reconcile them. Sometimes I think this is the a key to The ultimate UR event that is His servants asking God to clear the debts we have with others.
I am ever reminded that no matter how I proceed in this class I must be more attentive to walk in all meekness. I do get wound tight sometimes. Pray for me.
Quote from: Cocoon on January 20, 2017, 06:55:30 AM
Anyway, I am learning lots.
Exactly.
My experience and reflection on such discussions clarify my own understanding; I.M.O there is so much to learn and the Lord works in everything- ergo some people are not always aware of what they are saying or why, but the words sink in to your own heart.
This learning keeps getting clearer, bigger, and better all the time!
Quote from: Ross on January 20, 2017, 07:15:06 AM
My experience and reflection on such discussions clarify my own understanding; I.M.O there is so much to learn and the Lord works in everything- ergo some people are not always aware of what they are saying or why, but the words sink in to your own heart.
This learning keeps getting clearer, bigger, and better all the time!
Amen! :thumbsup:
Cocoon, have you read these? I have this one bookmarked for fast reference..
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063 - 77 Ultimate Reconciliation and Renewal Scriptures
As we go along, we see UR more and more.. written straight out, and also implied.. more and more.. :dsunny: :cloud9:
:Peace2: :Pray:
His Word is a "two edeged sword" ...I always picture a tapestry of many threads and the tip of that sword can separate thread from thread.. true from false.. two edeged sword, the Word can penetrate and divides true from not true.. and is like seed.. :thumbsup:
#27..wow really appreciate the insight/light on that scripture regarding the woman. Tying it in to Thessalonians...and the certain men who
slipped in...women heavy laden with sins..and the falling away of the thigh. lack of true spirit conception[holy spirit seed] instead teachings
of men and false doctrines bringing forth 'mere dirt" as a menstrous woman. many deformed 'monstrous"spiritual offsprings through
religion have been born this way[cage/vessels of unclean birds[spirits] that devour flesh. :2c:
enemies of the cross/Christ take away all sin and free gift of eternal life for all men[promised seed to be sown in all men and bring forth
deliverance of man[child]...........women heavy laden with sin..why? do they not believe that Christ takes away all sin? that sin is blotted
out in Christ..who is accusing of sin those Christ died for? evidently..the certain men who had slipped in. How can anyone conceive that
Holy thing in the face of that constant accusing.? The very reason the woman goes into the wilderness to the place prepared for her.....
where she is fed away from the face of the serpent/strife of tongues and constant accusation and dragon flood waters. There she receives
her vineyard..there He woo's her with His love...there she is assured of His Love and of her great value to Him...there she conceives of
that LOVE and healing and embraces Him with her love[we love because He first loved us] there she returns unto her first Love/reconciliation
union/and the bringing forth of the conception of a holy offspring. There a mere woman encompasses a man..something 'new" is created..
a NEW COVENANT.....A PROMISE...HIS PROMISE.......
TRUE HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL PURGING..of Christ
2 Chronicles 34;3 high places=powers and principalities in high places...groves/Elijah..putting false prophets to death by His sword/word
of truth/rightly dividing. idols[Rachael as menstrous woman sitting on her father's household idols/Psalms 45 forget your fathers house......
the King is enthralled by your beauty] molten images[hellfire eternal torment teachings of Baal..that accuse those who God see's no sin
in/causing the children to pass through the fire[destroy]
Hyssop..sprinkled with the blood of the Lamb...purge me with hyssop
Isaaih 6;7 lips purged with hot coal...speaking truth/pure language
Isaaih 27;9...God's vineyard..dragoin slayed..by this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged..and THIS IS ALL THE FRUIT..TO TAKE
AWAY HIS SIN all the altars[high places] as chalkstones
purged by His blood..purges wheat/chaff
purges dry branches[what shall they do in the dry?] snatches them out of the fire..puts clean turban on their head[truth] clean garments etc
for the filthy rags they had on. note that term 'snatch out of fire" it is associated with no-one can snatch them out of my hand....and
being snatched away..as some speak of 'rapture" He has a fiery jealousy of LOVE..and is not ashamed to call man his brother..........
nothing will stop Father's and Jesus work of claiming[legal right/Shiloh] what is theirs........
now this is the HEAVENLY PURGATORY..or SPIRITUAL cleansing that Christ and the Father do for ALL mankind.....and it is FREE!
He bought the potter's field where the 'poor' are buried...and He has the legal right to it...to make a vessel of honour of it.
IT'S ALREADY BEEN PAID FOR! YE NEEDN'T PAY FOR IT! IT HAS BEEN FREELY GIVEN UNTO US ALL. :2c:
COME! BUY WITHOUT COST!! Why do you pay money for bread that is not bread? why do you give money to men who are NOT your
TRUE PRIEST? but are as Judas priests who are robbers and thieves of what has been freely given you..........HE TURNS THEIR TABLES
OVER!!!! SCOURGES!!!...ZEAL FOR HIS FATHER'S HOUSE CONSUMES HIM!!! MY FATHER'S HOUSE IS A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL MEN!!!
ALL men have free access through that ripped viel..to the very presence of the Father...He died for that! Your reconciliation to Your
Father. Because of what He did..when you come into your Father's presence[enter into the Very heavens] HE SEE'S NO SIN IN YOU!
:2c:
:soap: :2c: I can't stop it..lol! Birthright issues concerning the Promised seed...and His brother's/sisters..all flesh[I will pour out
MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH[anointed/HOLY SPIRIT BIRTHRIGHT] a Treasure reserved and prepared in Heaven for all men..a kingdom of
the love of the son. wars/violence and thievery/usurpation of the birthright has occurred and is written about. let's kill the heir and
seize the vineyard! Jezebel said in regard to Nabal[foolishness of the cross?} I'll get it for Ahab......
the marketplace/den of robbers and thieves that rob God and men of their birthright[eternal spiritual inheritance worked by God
through His son,Jesus Christ] Birthright=family/sonship..that remains a member of the household forever.......this is the reconciliation
and restoration. They're still fighting and warring over it..taking it by violence on this earth..........but what they think they have
shall be taken away from them....and given to another nation that bears the fruit..that NATION BORN IN A DAY..even the SPIRITUAL
ISRAEL OF GOD. Can a nation be born in a Day? BEFORE SHE TRAVAILS SHE BRINGS FORTH!
[Please consider the Jews/Christendom/Islam etc as fighting over the birthright/corruptedfleshly kingdom on earth..taking it by force/wars
and violence..bow down and do one act of worship to me..and I will give you all these kingdoms of the world] satan met them in the
wilderness quoting scripture..........stones to bread[law covenant] kingdoms of this world[Constantine Roman church/Islam caliphate]
Now examine Jesus covenant for a Kingdom with His disciple's...the world will hate and kill you..no fancy robes and honour of men
no throne..but prisons persecution casting out etc. His appearance on this earth is as a man turns his face away from.[Rev ch 17
wherefore didst thou marvel?[ and admire] Come out of her MY PEOPLE..lest ye receive her plagues...famine..coz their buying bread
that is NOT bread/,wars,captivity/killed of wild beasts/spiritual sickness and death. Many of them got plans to rule and reign on this
earth at Messiah's return! smile ......just waiting for God to give it..or actively killing/warring to help it along..or wipe out all that stand in
their way and send them off to hell! or et! or ed. off with their heads! But Christ is the head of man.........
I was once out in 'service/to whom/not God I now know] and there were a few 'elders' in our group. They began talking about the new
earth they were to rule..after God had removed all the sovereign nations holding them back..and those who had not received them at their
doors[sons of thunder calling down fire from heaven/satan himself will call down fire from heaven] and the wicked sinner men destroyed.
They awaited eagerly their reign over those who would be resurrected and they would teach their doctrines to..and how they had
1000 years to make perfect in their flesh ..and walk perfectly in their flesh. And if they did not submit to their authority...Praise Jehovah!
they could put them to death!!! Cause,see, USA won't let them at present........just a small personal example I saw..let alone caliphates
one word/nwo ...national/secular Israel..and all the other extremists religious organizations.nations and kingdoms of this world.
sorry for the rant...think I'm pretty much poured at present........ :2c:
the Kingdom of Heaven is IN your MIDST.......in the garden there are two trees...tokogae which brought forth the death/corruption
and marred vessel.[flesh]....the promised seed to the TOL is also in your midst..that eternity sowed in your heart...that incorruptible seed
in the heart of the earth for 3 days/sown in corruption..raised in power.
Sheila! Loved your rant!
:thumbsup: it got the best of me. the thought of Judas priests taking money to pray someones loved ones out of purgatory......and making
merchandise of man's relationship with God..when all are bought and paid for by Jesus' blood! feed them a lie..then extort money..to free
them from the lie. Buy the truth,sell it not! Come BUY WITHOUT MONEY![believe the truth I/Jesus speak to you!]
Thankfully our good shepherd saw the wolves[in sheeps clothing] coming...and laid down His life for the sheep. No man took it from Him.
He laid it down willingly..in order to take it back UP again. He died to speak these words of truth unto us...religious leaders said 'Blasphemy!"
But He did it so we could live! LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)
To return the word to the glory He had with thee before the world was is to understand ..... all the word(s) out of our mouths are to be of life .... even when we speak of death we speak of life for the death of the flesh is life to the spirit .... Lord if thou condemn .... condemn this flesh that I may have life .... condemn death and let it be swallowed up by life and reign .... shut the mouth of the accuser so I can hear the words of forgiveness .... if I speak of blindness it is so I can see .... if I speak of deafness it is so I can hear
Glory to Him who does ALL these things and more through His Living Word
Freely you have received, freely give. He paid the price for our freedom. For anyone to put that up for sale would be like a beggar who made himself rich selling bread that was given to him for nothing, telling no one where he received the free gift, and refusing to share with those who could not pay.
exactly! Because Jerusalem Above is FREE...AND SHE IS THE MOTHER OF US ALL...... :dsunny:
Cocoon, sadly those who have been snakebit by Rome,and insist on having roman eyes...will be bereft of the knowledge of Our Family and
birthright.. the things He has freely given us ...and stored up for us in Heaven. Putting your trust in men and man following has it's con-
sequences......especially following blind men. I learned it the hard way,too. .
I recognize your desire that they have more abundant life now.... :thumbsup:
In response to the topic of love having no fear, I just wanted to say that one of the main reasons that love has no fear, IMO, because it only thinks of the 'other', or the one love is being given.
When we truly love, we don't worry about consequences; what the cost will be; what will happen tomorrow to make loving difficult;what sacrifices we will have to make; what others will think; how we will be looked upon. We throw all our worries and concerns aside, and focus all of our attention on the one we love. Nothing is too difficult; too long; too dangerous; too different; too painful.
This is what God the Father did for us, when He sent us His only Son. He did not care about all those issues that could have been considered, but never were.
We had to be saved, and there was no limit to what would be done to achieve that goal. No fear was too great. Love overrode it all. And, yes, Sheila, He laid it down willingly. Jesus was more than happy to go along with the Father's wishes. He and the Father are one. And, love is who they are.
And, we are to do likewise.
D.
exactly,D............very glad you posted that......and Jacob loved Rachael...and served 14 years for her..and it was as nothing in his eyes.
just a small human example of what love will sacrifice.
Great post D
touched the heart :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:girlheart: this is wonderful. Love the insights Shelia and Dandelion
Some interesting things I am seeing in this class is:
1) Many are resigned to the fact that they aren't suppose to understand God. That He is incomprehensible.
2) That faith is believing without knowledge. THat is one gets on a plane having faith without any knowledge of whether it will fall out of the sky. We have faith in a God we don't really understand or unable to rationalize. We just simply believe.
3)The gospel is offensive and the offensive part is that some people are going to hell. In fact, lots of people are going to hell. If we remove this, we remove the offensiveness of the gospel.
My response
1) I have nothing really to offer here. I did mention that the Bible does say that He will tell his servants his plans, that Paul says we are to have the mind of Christ, and that we are called to prove the will of God. How can all that be true if our God is incomprehensible and that He isn't meant to be understood? Are we rational beings? Is God rational? Why make us rational if we are never mention understand/rationalize God? How are we like God if not able to rationalize?
The retort was that even Jesus doesn't know the day of His return. Only the Father knows so to have the mind of Christ isn't to understand all there is to understand about God. Why God is sending anyone to hell for all eternity is not meant to be rationalized but to be excepted by Faith. which brings me to point two.
2) I can no longer believe that faith is believing without knowledge. Abraham was able to confidently walk up a mountain to offer his son to God. Why? Years and years of experience Abraham learns the character of God. If faith is believing without knowledge, then why not ask Abraham to do this act at the age of 18 when has no experience or revelation of God?
Do we believe in Christ based on zero knowledge? Or is it the knowledge of how frail and sinful we are and how good God is that brings us to repentance? If faith is based on no knowledge, then why preach the gospel? We don't need it if faith is based on nothing. This simple is an idea that cannot be worked. I didn't have time to work this out for them but I did share the Abraham example.
3) What about the gospel is suppose to be offensive? That we can't save ourselves. That we need God. This is what is offensive. The pride of man can not accept assistance. I thought this is what is offensive about the gospel. How can I get them to see that this is the only part that is offensive about the gospel? Of course, judgment is offensive but eternal judgment? They are resigned to the fact that this is truth, and who are they to question God? In fact, I think some find it offensive for me to question God to say that God is liable for saving us.
This discussions have been interesting, and there is a large amount of grace given to me in this class. They are trying to save me from this bad idea, and in the goodness of their hearts, I do see them listening to me to help me find my way. I humbly resign that I am unable to answer their questions sometimes but I am finding this a safe place to explore UR more. I can't abandon UR. They have no idea that I have explored and wrestled with UR for a long time but soon it consumed me and I couldn't believe anything else. IF I be blind, I have asked Him to cure me. Onward I go and as I gain more knowledge of Him, I can't believe anything else it seems.
# 1 ask,seek,knock...#2 My people perish through a lack of knowledge in the one true God. we can have misplaced faith,faith in a lie,faith in
men/pastors/clergy etc
#3 they became offended because..He said he was God's son..that He had power/authority to forgive sin .that He cold forgive sins and give eternal life :2c:
only a ministry of condemnation/death[Judge law] becomes offended at forgiveness of all sin and free gift of eternal life.[fulfill Law] :2c:
Simple thing for me is the truth that our Father in heaven loves us more than our earthly dad.
Ergo- does our dad threaten us with rejection if we do not obey him?
Does he evict us for our mistakes, or correct us?
What dad expects us to come as a servant, not a child?
We are told to come as little children to our Father, with boldness and security- not fear of failure.
Discipline is never pleasant at the time, but necessary for being corrected and trained to walk properly- our Father disciplines
those He loves.
We are not to call anyone on earth father, yet many ministers like being called father- why?
I find the statement "each in his own turn" releases me from the need to convert others.
After all perfect love casts out all fear, so if they are in fear they have not yet been released from the bondage to the law to the complete position secured for us by the grace of God through the work of Christ.
Quote from: Ross on January 30, 2017, 03:22:45 AM
Simple thing for me is the truth that our Father in heaven loves us more than our earthly dad.
Ergo- does our dad threaten us with rejection if we do not obey him?
Does he evict us for our mistakes, or correct us?
What dad expects us to come as a servant, not a child?
We are told to come as little children to our Father, with boldness and security- not fear of failure.
Discipline is never pleasant at the time, but necessary for being corrected and trained to walk properly- our Father disciplines
those He loves.
We are not to call anyone on earth father, yet many ministers like being called father- why?
I find the statement "each in his own turn" releases me from the need to convert others.
After all perfect love casts out all fear, so if they are in fear they have not yet been released from the bondage to the law to the complete position secured for us by the grace of God through the work of Christ.
:iagree: :thumbsup: will give it 5 stars :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:
Cocoon, I think we need to differentiate.
There is knowledge, which is useful to transfer information, about our faith, as well as about other things, then there is wisdom, which is God given and helps us to discern.
I also believe we have revelation from the Holy Spirit, which is usually about a specific incident, Bible verse, situation, or so on. This, hopefully occurs frequently, and regularly.
All are useful and important, but to see through eyes of faith and trust, guided by the Holy Spirit, is essential.
We must be born of Spirit and water to enter Heaven, Jesus told Nichodemus. We must be born again, into the Spiritual realm, beyond this earthly world.
To be born again is of the essence.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on January 30, 2017, 07:17:24 AM
Cocoon, I think we need to differentiate.
There is knowledge, which is useful to transfer information, about our faith, as well as about other things, then there is wisdom, which is God given and helps us to discern.
I also believe we have revelation from the Holy Spirit, which is usually about a specific incident, Bible verse, situation, or so on. This, hopefully occurs frequently, and regularly.
All are useful and important, but to see through eyes of faith and trust, guided by the Holy Spirit, is essential.
We must be born of Spirit and water to enter Heaven, Jesus told Nichodemus. We must be born again, into the Spiritual realm, beyond this earthly world.
To be born again is of the essence.
D.
:goodpost:
Quote from: Cocoon on January 29, 2017, 11:31:36 PM
Some interesting things I am seeing in this class is:
1) Many are resigned to the fact that they aren't suppose to understand God. That He is incomprehensible.
2) That faith is believing without knowledge. THat is one gets on a plane having faith without any knowledge of whether it will fall out of the sky. We have faith in a God we don't really understand or unable to rationalize. We just simply believe.
3)The gospel is offensive and the offensive part is that some people are going to hell. In fact, lots of people are going to hell. If we remove this, we remove the offensiveness of the gospel.
oh yah.. those drive me a little crazy (not really, but you know, in a sense! :laughing7: ) I could never be happy with #'s 1 and 2!! Oiye!!
.."Spirit of Truth".. "will guide into all truth.." ..I just shrug my shoulders and figure just because someone else isn't getting on the train (on board) doesn't mean I have to stay off the train too! (miss the flight!)
#3.. To me the gospel is "Good News"!! I guess i've always thought the 'offensive' part folks refer to is that there is the 'right way' and then there is "sin".. personally I don't even use the word sin, but imperfection which I think is a closer representation and makes it less "personal"/in yer face.. I leave the convincing of sin to the Holy Spirit.. unless moved by the Spirit else wise or I'm specifically asked about something..
Quote from: Cocoon on January 29, 2017, 11:31:36 PM
IF I be blind, I have asked Him to cure me. Onward I go and as I gain more knowledge of Him, I can't believe anything else it seems.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I've always kind of, pretty much believed in "all saved"/will be saved.. but since coming to Tentmaker (forum) regularly, I've gotten much more solid about it.. And like you - "I can't abandon UR." - I cannot envision not believing/knowing u.r. ..And now also, I see it everywhere in
His Word/His promise. And also every where in the very fabric of life.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: