Rev 2:11 - Everyone dies a 2nd death (?)

[Seth]

GOD IS THE ALMIGHTY , nothing exists without GOD .HE ALONE  is the source of ALL THINGS period ...., literally  or Spiritually speaking  , most cannot see the forest  [Big picture ] for the trees [main focus ]as  the WORD teaches us the  difference ..


FIRE   it is a figure of speech  ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.    the Bible is Full   of    these examples . God has always had them separated from the beginning   those things above and  the things below  . 
 
GODS nature is  A Spiritual TRUTH  and described as GOD IS  LOVE , GOD IS SPIRIT ,  GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE    , no carnal mind can   comprehend spiritual things  , but can only be compared to natural things , not supernatural things  , but gives the idea of  by comparisons .



  Just the it is  written  if God had not left us a seed we would be the  same as Sodom and Gomorrah [city destroyed  by  Fire  of Gods wrath ]

  And wickedness is that fuel for the fire of Gods consuming   up  the evil ,that is no more  . 

I don't disagree with much of this. Although Isaiah 9 says that wickedness itself is like a fire and people are fuel for it. And there are many other scriptures that make the same comparison. In fact, in the very  Deuteronomy scripture where it says that God is a consuming fire, it also says Egypt was an iron smelting furnace  for the Israelites. Egypt. The Pagan, God-defying enslavers of Exodus.

The Bible has alot of examples where a physical thing can represent both a negative or positive other thing. So, yes I do agree there is one God, but I don't believe that the fire is one thing.

[rosered]

FIRE   it is a figure of speech  ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.

..It's SO weird that the LOF became so fixed in people's minds as a literal place.. literal, material place.. Whereas, saying it's the 2nd death, doesn't that alone suggest its transient and temporary nature?
[/quote]

Hi Marie ,  Yes! ,  it is odd that the ''fixation ''  of the lake of fire is  only spoken of once in  Rev 19  and  only in chapter 20   describing the 2nd death .

   As to where ''harming  ''     or hurting      those not written in the book of life .     

And the place   the false prophet  and beast   are in  , as satan is bound in the abyss  for the 1000 year  reign

Oddly ''a lake''    ,  when you consider the  meaning of a lake , it is  place surrounded by land and  is fed or drained by another source of water  , but ''contained ''  larger/deeper  than a pond , but   is  as a basin  or bowl   .

For me  personally I can only see Revelation as  symbolic  in meaning because it is the   descriptive  language of Johns   experience of the DAY OF THE LORD while being in the Spirit  as an angelic message  from above  ,   not in his fleshly mind  at the time  ...    a  descriptive  vision  of  what everyone will experience on the DAY OF THE LORD or 1000 year reign of Christ being the  only  main   authority  and what takes place  in that Day .

  And find it is mainly to   destroy Babylons    hold on anyone that has been  bound to its lying spirits[many  delusions of falsity ] and  is a prisoner to  Her    , Jesus Christ    Being the TRUTH AND THE LIFE , already has the authority  over hell/graves  and death  when rising up from the CROSS and sits at the right hand of the Father   , His finished work     and at last the finished work of the Heavenly Father giving Him[The Son ]  all  authority over    ''all things ''  above , in the earth and below  Till God be all in all . ...

[rosered]

GOD IS THE ALMIGHTY , nothing exists without GOD .HE ALONE  is the source of ALL THINGS period ...., literally  or Spiritually speaking  , most cannot see the forest  [Big picture ] for the trees [main focus ]as  the WORD teaches us the  difference ..


FIRE   it is a figure of speech  ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.    the Bible is Full   of    these examples . God has always had them separated from the beginning   those things above and  the things below  . 
 
GODS nature is  A Spiritual TRUTH  and described as GOD IS  LOVE , GOD IS SPIRIT ,  GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE    , no carnal mind can   comprehend spiritual things  , but can only be compared to natural things , not supernatural things  , but gives the idea of  by comparisons .



  Just the it is  written  if God had not left us a seed we would be the  same as Sodom and Gomorrah [city destroyed  by  Fire  of Gods wrath ]

  And wickedness is that fuel for the fire of Gods consuming   up  the evil ,that is no more  . 

I don't disagree with much of this. Although Isaiah 9 says that wickedness itself is like a fire and people are fuel for it. And there are many other scriptures that make the same comparison. In fact, in the very  Deuteronomy scripture where it says that God is a consuming fire, it also says Egypt was an iron smelting furnace  for the Israelites. Egypt. The Pagan, God-defying enslavers of Exodus.

The Bible has alot of examples where a physical thing can represent both a negative or positive other thing. So, yes I do agree there is one God, but I don't believe that the fire is one thing.

   Hi Seth ,
I  do believe the Word of God  is  what judges us all   , as it is what dwells within us all  , and it can  mean so many different things , depending on what that particular  person is   experiencing .  when you read this passage  ,     The thing Jesus said to satan   , was man shall not live by  bread alone , but every WORD that proceeds out of the  mouth of God ,    I do believe  , just as the examples in the bible are  speaking to the evil spirits and satan   and not to the  human being  , but the human being is being  ''held '' captive [as a slave ]  by    this sin nature , over ridden by evil/darkness   working in them .  the man in the tombs is an excellent example of that ..

I know Jesus come to save  that which was lost  and  being the bread of heaven  , but the WORD OF GOD IS A FIRE   that consumes His enemies     and they are our enemies  as well .   Jesus prayer  in Matt 6    says  is to keep us[protect us ]  from the EVIL ONE  ,   Very significant   meaning here as to not confuse the poor  sinner  being a slave to it   , still has  Hope in Christ  and rejecting Him has consequences .


John 12 47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them,

I do not judge him.

For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.


48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words:

The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it....

THE FATHER  IS SPEAKING   THOUGH JESUS CHRIST  and warning the evil ones  of sudden destruction  and the mortal bodies of mankind , as being saved though the fire , a fiery trial  and judgment ,do experience the lake of fire  in my opinion and are  injured ...it sure is a two edged SWORD / WORD and is the  same  flaming Sword of   Gen 3    protecting the TREE OF LIFE   and only granted when found worthy of it   Rev  3

His WORD IS LIKE A FIRE   JER  23 ...28"The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth.

What does straw have in common with grain?" declares the LORD.

29"Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?


30"Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who steal My words from each other....


The Word ,  keeps us and also  destroys all things that offend  that are found''  rising up''  in us all ...

  I read Deut  28     and it is a clear   message of  obedience    is far better than suffering   for wrong doing as we learn what truth and righteousness is in the earth as it is in heaven  and the hope and promise    of a new heaven and earth are waiting on those what believe and obey  His command. . You will have no other gods before ME ..Those gods will be  destroyed by the consuming fire of His jealousy  and  very painful for the ones  whom  must experience that  burning  them out  ..


Some of the scriptures relating to this painful  experience of judgment and reward ...   
1 Corinthians 3:12,13 Now if any man build on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones,
   If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward.

15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire. 16Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?...

Job 23:10
"But He knows the way I take; When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

Psalm 66:10
For You have tried us, O God; You have refined us as silver is refined.

Psalm 66:12
You made men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water, Yet You brought us out into a place of abundance.

Jude 1:23
save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others, show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh.
...
Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed;

and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"...

[Seth]

I see things similarly, probably the same. There is a passage where Jesus says, "away from me ye who work iniquity." That's also being judged by his word. So, in that sense, being away from him would be an aspect of judgement fire. To me that is why I believe the LOF is related to a kind of death that the Bride beckons them out of and into the city where the tree of life is. I believe the LOF represents not knowing God and for some having been cast away from him, and salvation from that condition is a result of repentance and entering the Holy City.

[rosered]

I see things similarly, probably the same. There is a passage where Jesus says, "away from me ye who work iniquity." That's also being judged by his word. So, in that sense, being away from him would be an aspect of judgement fire. To me that is why I believe the LOF is related to a kind of death that the Bride beckons them out of and into the city where the tree of life is. I believe the LOF represents not knowing God and for some having been cast away from him, and salvation from that condition is a result of repentance and entering the Holy City.

  I do see those things similarly    as well Seth and  Hang on tight to Jesus every Word ,and ask Him for the meaning    because ,     when He  says   the WORD judges us on the last Day 
  The Lord helped me to see  somthing I never knew before  when comparing the scriptures with other scriptures  and it was    about    ,   How that no man can enter the temple until the last of the 7   bowls  is  poured out   destroying Babylon  , By His Spirit   working in them  is completed   , than can  they enter the temple  of the Living God , to me that is when they get to become  a   priest of God and making the same intercession  of the righteous man  praying  availing much,,,      for me this understanding is to clear  out every  idol out of  HIS dwelling place[robbers and thieves spirits ]  ... YOU BEING THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD ,   This being within our hearts   

  15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire. 16Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?...


Rev 15
15 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.

2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. 3 And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and marvelous are Your works,
O Lord God, the Almighty;
Righteous and true are Your ways,
King of the nations!
4 "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy;
For all the nations will come and worship before You,
For Your righteous acts have been revealed."
5 After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened,

6 and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes

. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.


8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Until I took it personally and  intended  for   the hearer  of  what  the Spirit   is saying ,

it never crossed my mind that is was speaking directly to us   , ''at the time at hand in power '' .

  Considering this whole process   as   GODS WORD AND SPIRIT working in us and on us , with  the level we can grasp it with .

   Jesus  Christ is being the Word  and that seed of Life ,   planted in our hearts   came in  our sinful bodies and laying His Life down  in death  , our moral bodies

as   a dead letter  under the law  of sin and death   that He could raise it back up again into Life   from the dead   , in His first appearing it was  the WORD made flesh   and when the Spirit  gives it Life being   poured out on all flesh ,  that Spiritual growth in truth and grace would come though them BOTH as   witnesses  IN Rev 11  Seeing that  is what was working in every man from the beginning to the end  , those called and those chosen  to represent  that    WORD OF TRUTH AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH against   the evil  that dwells also in mankind ...   The Word is a Fire and So is the Spirit a  Fire that consumes all enemies and sending the  bowls  of  wrath down on the earth  in  our mortal bodies as the  Spirit of jealousy not giving His glory to another  , ONLY the SON OF GOD . Ezek 36..
and Ezek 8    the abominations  done in the temple .

An example being , seeing Mose stumble over the Word by   taking the glory upon himself  striking the rock twice /JESUS being the   WORD OF GOD ,   for living water  and not  giving glory  to God and him not entering the promised land while being mortal , Body of Christ / BRIDE     [HOLY CITY that comes down out of heaven ]    , I realize  Moses purpose    was   proof  of God dealing with mankind     and was for the purpose of  teaching us and never doubt  his name is not written in the lambs book of Life .  The cross was to  give new Life  and bought them back from the dead ,   to me  those were  raised up into Gods glory  in Christ
 
Just our examples of God dealing  with Adam / all mankind  throughout the ages   in symbolism being  mortal and the  being made immortal  in Christ .  Our seed  of faith , hope and Love  in every man  .

Jesus would come a  2nd time without sin  , this being our mortal  bodies  by faith as good as dead already    and  would appear unto salvation for those eagerly waiting Him  and would  raise the dead in Christ   to a higher  understanding .

  I cannot write worth a dime ,   sorry  about that ,  I have a hard time , but keep trying just the same  .
  God bless 
 

[Seth]

This reminds me of what I have been saying which is that the ekklesia goes through a kind of similar process, only before others do. Everyone  has had a conversation with sin and everone must step out of it. So I see a kind of LOF existing today in the world and the ekklesia being plucked out of it when they enter into the City by faith today. In the final judgment I see a continuation of that process until everyone is folded in.

[darryl]

If wickedness is like a fire and God is like a fire, obviously those two are not the same thing. They are opposites though both symbolized by fire.

....? fight fire with fire? Just kidding! ..don't mind me.. :laughing7:

FIRE   it is a figure of speech  ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.

..It's SO weird that the LOF became so fixed in people's minds as a literal place.. literal, material place.. Whereas, saying it's the 2nd death, doesn't that alone suggest its transient and temporary nature?

yes, fixed in people's minds as a literal place where God tortures people in fire...what a hideous idea that offends every God given sense of morality, justice and decency...the 2nd death will be abolished and this Truth needs to be lovingly explained to the hellators  :dsunny: :banana:

[Patinak]

This reminds me of what I have been saying which is that the ekklesia goes through a kind of similar process, only before others do. Everyone  has had a conversation with sin and everone must step out of it. So I see a kind of LOF existing today in the world and the ekklesia being plucked out of it when they enter into the City by faith today. In the final judgment I see a continuation of that process until everyone is folded in.

Seth, I really like the way you have worded your last post here.

We know that he who has the Son has life (now), and we know that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess; so we know that everyone will have the Son and will have life (eventually). To me the when and how may be uncertain, but the final outcome is certain.

[Patinak]

rosered

Most excellent posts!
Pat

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[rosered]

rosered

Most excellent posts!
Pat

  Thank you for the encouragement  brother ,
  I have struggled to  put in to words , many times and  cannot  post  with clarity .  One day  soon . God willing we will all have that  gift of  Clarity , like crystal clear waters   above , from the Lord's blessing   :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Fire, Wind, Water... All figures of speech.

But each one represents something real. Figures of speech are coined to communicates elements of reality, so fire can be somewhat fearsome for sure, and Jesus described it as fearsome, but an interesting verse is.....

"Fear has torment, but perfect love casts out all fear."

The fire is fearsome to a piece of wood, but not to a precious stone. It can be fearsome to metals, because it breaks them down and separates the alloys....

He will be like a refiners fire and a fullers soap and He will purify the sons of Levi..... "I will smelt away all your alloys(impurities)"

Alloys can make metals stronger but in this case the spirit is addressing alloys that make metal unsuitable to a fine craftsman- like lead added to gold to make it look like you have more than you really do, or iron added to gold which makes it inflexible and unworkable- but better for killing people.

YHWH removed access to the ministry in the holy place and the most holy place from the levites and restricted it to the sons of Zadok- because the sons of Zadok taught Israel to discern between good and evil in the days of Israels backslidings- when the sons of Levi backslid with them.

Its the same way today. We who have "entered the house" are being purified.

"Entrust your souls to those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to know the difference between good and evil, flesh and spirit"

Those who know how to discern between pure gold and impure alloys are the craftsmen God uses to shape His Lampstand.

Exod 25:31-40 "You shall also make a lampstand of pure gold; the lampstand shall be of hammered work. Its shaft, its branches, its bowls, its ornamental knobs, and flowers shall be of one piece. And six branches shall come out of its sides: three branches of the lampstand out of one side, and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side. Three bowls shall be made like almond blossoms on one branch, with an ornamental knob and a flower, and three bowls made like almond blossoms on the other branch, with an ornamental knob and a flower-- and so for the six branches that come out of the lampstand. On the lampstand itself four bowls shall be made like almond blossoms, each with its ornamental knob and flower. And there shall be a knob under the first two branches of the same, a knob under the second two branches of the same, and a knob under the third two branches of the same, according to the six branches that extend from the lampstand. Their knobs and their branches shall be of one piece; all of it shall be one hammered piece of pure gold. You shall make seven lamps for it, and they shall arrange its lamps so that they give light in front of it. And its wick-trimmers and their trays shall be of pure gold. It shall be made of a talent of pure gold, with all these utensils. And see to it that you make them according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain."


And they had to use clear oil for burning....etc, always purity is a key, and purity comes by fire, pressure, movement

Nothing that sits too long in one place remains pure. Water without currents become stagnant and undrinkable. Wine that has "settled on its lees" is distasteful- before centrifuges they stomped out the grapes in the winepress, then they let it settle, then they poured off the liquid- but it wasnt yet drinkable. They let it settle again and again, each time pouring off clearer liquid and tossing the "lees"- the leftover impurities.

"Moab has been at ease since his youth; He has also been undisturbed, like wine on its dregs, And he has not been emptied from vessel to vessel, Nor has he gone into exile. Therefore he retains his flavor, And his aroma has not changed. 12"Therefore behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will send to him those who tip vessels, and they will tip him over, and they will empty his vessels and shatter his jars....Jer 48

This what Jesus was saying, "The axe is layed to the root of the trees"... "I will thoroughly purge My threshing floor"...."I will gather the wheat and burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire"

The chaff and the lees/dregs are the same. Figures of speech for something real. A way to open our understanding to God's perspectiveof us- and get in agreement with Him.

Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way to court. Otherwise he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny....

In this case the adversary is the Spirit of God, and the sharp two-edged Sword of the Spirit, dividing asunder soul and spirit...making manifest the thoughts and the intentions of the heart.

The humble will be exalted, the arrogant will be abased. The pure in heart see God, the broken and contrie heart dwells in His exalted height. Those who have been through the fire and been purified by it are "vessels fit for the Master's use".

Those vessels that have not been willing to be poured and repoured, smell like themselves...retain the odor of man. This can be applied in a teacher to student process(discipleship) or it can be applied in a corrective process(you will not get out till you have paid the last penny).

WHile the one(discipleship) is difficult, it is employed through grace and with the Comfort of the Spirit. The other(corrective) is more painful and requires breakings that are not necessary for the obedient, the faithful, the humble.

Thus we have the Lake of Fire, and Gehenna- figures of speech representing different aspects of the process of purification, being broken; being delivered of chaff and alloys by fire; becoming a vessel fitted, being rejected for impurities, being purified and restored, etc.

[joeteekay]

Upon reading and thinking about Marie's post # 33 , can we consider the first and second death in two scenarios depending on which eon we are dealing with? One being in the current eon and the other in the final one.  The final one involves the LOF.  The current eon does not have in it the LOF. LOF is only mentioned in Revelation in 5 verses.  I agree with EW that a fire is a fire whether a camp fire a forest fire.  God is a consuming fire, however He uses His fire in various manifestations such as the burning bush, cloven tongues as of fire,  or LOF depending on its specific purpose.  And as Seth points out, fire can be used metaphorically in scripture too (i.e. James 3:6).

In this current eon, Christians are tested and tried with the fire of God's Spirit.  For the Elect, those in Christ, fiery trials are to be expected.  As Marie has stated:

.. But I was wondering if since we die to self during this life - reckoned as crucified with Christ.. If, possibly, one might think of this as a first death, then the believer's second death would be the physical death, which as believers we are not harmed by.. But somehow it's gotten stuck in my head that we do die twice, one as a process of dying to self, which we actually do first.

Concerning the Elect, we the believers, experience God's chastening and beneficial fire.  So lets consider how this relates to the first and second death?

And these fiery trials as Peter calls them go on for a lifetime. If it were real, physical fire, all believers' lives would be short indeed.  It is God's Spirit that is likened to fire in various ways.

Many scriptures tell us that we are to experience God's chastening fire:

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe_1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Heb 12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

For a Christian the chastening fire is the first death.

Many scriptures tell us that we are to die to self, die to the flesh and die to sin


Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2Ti_2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
Col_3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Rom_8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

So for the Elect, we may construe that our first death occurs when we are in Christ.  Later we experience the second death physically. Then we await the first resurrection whether we are alive at his return or dead in the unseen (grave).

Also God's fire is applied to all of mankind, believer and non-believers, depending on their time for God's intervention.

Mar_9:49  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Death and LOF in the final eon

In the final eon there will be the resurrection to judgement of all unbelievers.  Resurrected to physical life.  They will have experience the first death in prior eons. They are in their graves until the white throne judgement at which time they are resurrected. 
When He Who is  sitting on the great white throne, judges, or sets right,  all who stand before it, there is no more affliction or  distress possible.

Marie mention this in her post #33 also:

If it's possible as believers our first dying, is to self. But to the not yet saved - their 2nd dying would be dying to self, as they have died once at physical death (tho I still think many or even possibly most, will repent and believe during judgment day.. in the LOF in rev 19 and 20 as purification/a dying to self - which we believers did in the opposite order.

At the Great White Throne they will be judged according to their acts.  God will be paying each one in accord with the personal and social deeds of evil committed.  The result will be judgment and condemnation in accord with their acts.  It is at the White Throne that all the irreverence and injustice committed by humans will receive just adjudication and all wrongs will be made right. After justice has been fully meted out to each one, they will experience the second death, the LOF.  These Scriptures in Revelation tell us that, after the great and small have been judged before the Great White Throne and paid their due were cast into the lake of fire--which is the second death.  The  second death is not accompanied by any prolonged,  painful infliction. There is no distressing delay or suffering, but all are ushered into death in an instant

The judging is past.  All are ready for reconciliation.  They are simply dissolved in death (LOF),  so that, in their experience, they go from the judgment scene right into the reconciliation, when God becomes their All.

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

First group -
    The Elect (Believers)
      First death of self (Christ in us)
         second death (physical)
            then first resurrection to life (immortality)

Second group -
    The rest of humanity (Unbelievers)
      First death (physical)
         second resurrection to judgement
            second death in LOF
               then life (vivication) at the consummation

[Seth]

I do believe all humans go through the same essential, basic conversion. We are born in iniquity and then drawn out of it. So, I do think that when a believer passes from death to life through faith, he is going through the same conversion as those in the 2nd resurrection.

However, I take the term "second death" to be applied only to who the Bible says it is applied to, which is described in Revelation. To go beyond that, I think muddies the waters a bit as to what the intended meaning of John's vision is, whatever that meaning may be. I can't agree that "second death" is inevitable for believers, even as a literal death, because I don't see that being presented by John in his vision. His vision ascribes the term "second death" to a specific group of people, and not to another specific group of people if we take Revelation 21 and 22 as a whole.

In other words, "second death," whatever that is to anyone, is not for anyone who has an inheritance in the Holy City, because Apostle John sets "second death"  IN CONTRAST to the Holy City, where God has placed the Tree of Life. For the second death to be applied to the ekklesia means that they have to have their inheritance of the Holy City removed and they are cast out of it into the second death, again whatever that may be to anyone. According to Revelation 22, there is a warning about that regarding those who change the words of the prophecy. But, I don't see physical death removing a faith inheritance.

I believe we have to consider the WHOLE PICTURE in Revelation, not just the line about a second death. We have to consider what second death is IN RELATION to the other images and situations John describes along with it in context.  :2c:

[joeteekay]

This reminds me of what I have been saying which is that the ekklesia goes through a kind of similar process, only before others do. Everyone  has had a conversation with sin and everone must step out of it. So I see a kind of LOF existing today in the world and the ekklesia being plucked out of it when they enter into the City by faith today. In the final judgment I see a continuation of that process until everyone is folded in.

I do believe all humans go through the same essential, basic conversion. We are born in iniquity and then drawn out of it. So, I do think that when a believer passes from death to life through faith, he is going through the same conversion as those in the 2nd resurrection.

However, I take the term "second death" to be applied only to who the Bible says it is applied to, which is described in Revelation. To go beyond that, I think muddies the waters a bit as to what the intended meaning of John's vision is, whatever that meaning may be. I can't agree that "second death" is inevitable for believers, even as a literal death, because I don't see that being presented by John in his vision. His vision ascribes the term "second death" to a specific group of people, and not to another specific group of people if we take Revelation 21 and 22 as a whole.

In other words, "second death," whatever that is to anyone, is not for anyone who has an inheritance in the Holy City, because Apostle John sets "second death"  IN CONTRAST to the Holy City, where God has placed the Tree of Life. For the second death to be applied to the ekklesia means that they have to have their inheritance of the Holy City removed and they are cast out of it into the second death, again whatever that may be to anyone. According to Revelation 22, there is a warning about that regarding those who change the words of the prophecy. But, I don't see physical death removing a faith inheritance.

I believe we have to consider the WHOLE PICTURE in Revelation, not just the line about a second death. We have to consider what second death is IN RELATION to the other images and situations John describes along with it in context.  :2c:

I agree Seth that the second death is not so called in the bible except in the book of revelation. Your point is well made. However I believe we die into Christ when He is in us and eventually we die a physical death as all mortals do. To call that a "second death" is inappropriate, I agree. But neither should we make the assumption that "we see a kind of LOF existing today".
:2c: :2c: :sigh:

[Seth]

 :friendstu:

When I say that, I am refering to ekklesia coming out of death in this life, which spiritual  death I believe shares the same nature as the "second death." Kind of like the expression, "that was my Waterloo" without it actually being Waterloo. I believe that the ekklesia have inherited the Holy City today as a down payment form and will receive the final reward after resurrection.

[rosered]

 

I  believe ,   the some are born that never die [Was Christs from the beginning ]   chosen/elect]  always  ...some live and never die  [Christ]
and all the rest  die [in Adam]  but will live  because of faith and What Jesus Christ    did ,done ,doing /Was /is / will become to all

  Simply put Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the Life that has always been from the beginning/Alpha  to the end/Omega  .

That death  in the fulness of time   was  for the world an  open showing [to be a witness ]  and represents the Love God has  for mankind  , to remove that fear of death if you believe in the LIVING God/the ONLY GOD and Father of us all  and the Son  /the one of a kind  and First in Power over all things .

Jesus come took death   into captivity  , being the Lord of all ... 
For me at this time  , I am under the  impression , that the flesh  doesn't even count as anything in Gods sight  and a mortal death is  nothing .  , It would count only as a rising up into a higher   Spiritual  being  / the soul  or core of existence  & spirit  being joined  back into His own LIFE  Being, as  waiting to be  risen  into newness of life  and promised .




and    JESUS CHRIST being that   total  authority now is the time ,   raises up into Life whom soever   He will  because HE  ALONE IS THE LIFE GIVING SPIRIT with all that has been given  Him  as  Life by Him already .  as a Gathering into Life  in this reign of power  over all death   and presenting them to His Father  the  LIVING GOD .
Some  pretty powerful Living Words of Life  here  to believe in  , for sure .

The Father and the Son
...20The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.
21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes.

22 Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son,...

Jesus come to save mens lives not destroy them ..  what is destroyed is the evil that was found in them by the brightness of His presence   , all  will see Him , even those whom   pierced Him  , each in their own order .. 

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.

and whom lives and believe in Him will NEVER DIE . not ever   they have lived and reigned with Christ  in the Day /1000 yrs  as His  chosen ones / explained in Revelation  , they have the Life giving Spirit already  working in them   already .

Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the presence of God, in whom he believed, the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not yet exist.

Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells within you.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life-giving spirit." ALL WILL LIVE because of Him and the glory was His  that was always with the FATHER from the beginning ...

I hope this  is clear ,   many times you know something , so deep in the core of your being  ,  but cannot  explain it  very well , But the Lord says try  and dont give up and wait on Him  till the end  :HeartThrob:  God bless us with more of His Life giving SPIRIT OF TRUTH.  setting us free ..

[Patinak]

rosered

You're just on fire lately!  On all of your posts... it's like we're surrounded by your fire...it's like being in a lake of fire! :doh:

[rosered]

rosered

You're just on fire lately!  On all of your posts... it's like we're surrounded by your fire...it's like being in a lake of fire! :doh:

GOD BLESS you hon !!   
I dont know ,   the Lord set me in a quiet  place for awhile and was  empty and began to feel cut off  ,
  But  was filling me up with all this Light I never knew before!   
  and example a lesson  learned  , was with my son , whom is very handicapped  Nathan  Daniel   , I was bathing him   and trying to clean him up for the day , when 

  He struggles against me   , I become frustrated with him and   just do quickly what   I can with him
  but when he sits in quiet stillness and lets me  work on him   , I can clean him thoroughly and peaceably  doing all the  things    that needs to done , like cleaning his teeth and   flossing , when he fights against me   , it has been  chaos   , but has learned to  sit still and let me  do what needs to be done   to help him , because he knows it makes him feel better  and so he can do better   , growing in grace  and trust
  and the lesson was for me to SEE   this is exactly what Jesus does for us !!!       

So it is  that peace and calm  finally  allowing  the HOLY SPIRIT  to His work perfectly and completely in us   , cleansing us  from all unrighteousness and removing  filth of the flesh with a clean conscience  , that is teachable  and open and ready to receive  , the flesh must be done away with  in Christ   because    that was never pleasing to God in the first place  , but it was all  we can offer Him when we do not know any better  in the beginning ,as  our poor offerings LOL

   LOVING  WHAT THE SPIRIT is doing in our lives as heaven opened up to us all and we can see the Glory of  God on the earth as it is in heaven  , truly all things are becoming new in Christ s LIGHT   and knowledge of Gods love .....

   Much blessings brother from the only  One who can  supply all  our  needs   :HeartThrob: