(CLV) "'"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
(EngSinaiticus) He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
(Mace) he that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith to the churches, he that overcometh, shall not be hurt by the second death."
(Darby) He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He that overcomes shall in no wise be injured of the second death.
(AUV-NT) "The person who has an ear should listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to the churches. The person who has victory [in the Christian life] will not be harmed at all by the second death [i.e., the lake of fire. See 21:8].
Am I correct when reading the above Rev 2:11 as: Everyone will die a 2nd death but for the believer it won't be painful.
Hi WW , That is a good question !
being hurt by the second death
Does this mean they go though the fire like those hebrew 3 that did not get hurt either ?Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
we know that they went on to die a physical death because they are only here now by the Word of God .
these are for examples to me bro .[in Adam/flesh and blood ]All die AND IN Christ all shall be made alive .
I looked at the above verse in Rev 2 ;11 and rev 2 10 says,
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
the second death may be the soul possibly ? because the soul is mentioned a many of times about life and death issues
:HeartThrob: :icon_flower:
I am never 100 % sure :mblush:
Quote from: rosered on June 09, 2009, 08:57:21 PM
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
I think that was a literal fire. And LoF is a spiritual fire (IMO)
Quotethese are for examples to me bro .[in Adam/flesh and blood ]All die
Isn't that the 1st death? You just die of old age, accident, illness etc. A natural death
For me the 2nd death is a 'judgemental death' by lack of better words.
I looked at the above verse in Rev 2 ;11 and rev 2 10 says,
QuoteRev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
[some] was not it the original words so is just an opion for translators. I started this thread to find out that opinion is correct.
The way I read the verses 2:10-11 without further context I would say some is not correct.
Especially (nice word....) because everyone is salted with fire. Salt is good.
That said I'm just waiting until someone writes "believers are salted right now in this life"
Quotethe second death may be the soul possibly ? because the soul is mentioned a many of times about life and death issues
Like being split up? One part in LoF and the other talking a walk in Paradise?
Quote:HeartThrob: :icon_flower:
I am never 100 % sure :mblush:
Are you sure about that? :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2009, 09:13:23 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 09, 2009, 08:57:21 PM
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
I think that was a literal fire. And LoF is a spiritual fire (IMO)
Quotethese are for examples to me bro .[in Adam/flesh and blood ]All die
Isn't that the 1st death? You just die of old age, accident, illness etc. A natural death
For me the 2nd death is a 'judgemental death' by lack of better words.
I looked at the above verse in Rev 2 ;11 and rev 2 10 says,
QuoteRev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
[some] was not it the original words so is just an opion for translators. I started this thread to find out that opinion is correct.
The way I read the verses 2:10-11 without further context I would say some is not correct.
Especially (nice word....) because everyone is salted with fire. Salt is good.
That said I'm just waiting until someone writes "believers are salted right now in this life"
Quotethe second death may be the soul possibly ? because the soul is mentioned a many of times about life and death issues
Like being split up? One part in LoF and the other talking a walk in Paradise?
Quote:HeartThrob: :icon_flower:
I am never 100 % sure :mblush:
Are you sure about that? :laughing7:
Yes I am sure LOL... :dontknow: :laughing7: A literal fire in a spiritual BOOK ? hee hee ooooohhh K !
:cloud9: THE SOUL that "
has rest " verses the soul that has torment
division in the soul and spirit ?
this may be the key to the verse in Rev 2 11 ?
But , as far as translations go , I am not to swayed by any of them , they basically say the same things with some or little difference to me , I have several different ones/translations and do compare them from time to time ...... :grin: no biggy , KJV at first made me confused with the thee thou and such , but I started looking for the greek and hebrew meanings that helped alot , ALOT !! :grin:
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is]
a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
QuoteTHE SOUL that " has rest " verses the soul that has torment division in the soul and spirit ?
The way I see/understand it soul and spirit are aways (close) together. The spirit is the uplink to God.
Between the soul and spirit there is a wall/veil/divide (of sin?) Once that wall is down we can 'talk' with God?
Perhaps Lazarus and Rich man is also about that?
Lazarus is the spirit (=the religious/godly part) Rich man is the soul (=worldly part)
They are seperated by a gulf/divide.
Just a bit of brainstorming. Especially that Lazarus part is (pure) speculation.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2009, 09:35:05 PM
QuoteTHE SOUL that " has rest " verses the soul that has torment division in the soul and spirit ?
The way I see/understand it soul and spirit are aways (close) together. The spirit is the uplink to God.
Between the soul and spirit there is a wall/veil/divide (of sin?) Once that wall is down we can 'talk' with God?
Perhaps Lazarus and Rich man is also about that?
Lazarus is the spirit (=the religious/godly part) Rich man is the soul (=worldly part)
They are seperated by a gulf/divide.
Just a bit of brainstorming. Especially that Lazarus part is (pure) speculation.
That really good Bro!
lazraus mens ''whom God helps ''!! if God did not help us we would all be in a bad way , we are a type of Lazarus dont you think ?
rasied up from the dead because Christ calls us from the tomb/ grave + death :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower:
This is confusing to me too. It would seem that only certain ones go into a second death, and from what I can see, it appears to be a literal death. This would of course, only be until the consummation. I still have yet to resolve this for myself, however.
All sinners go into LoF/2nd death.
Some say that if you convert in this life you already had your 2nd death.
=> If you are born twice you die once.
I have 2 problems with that:
a] Then the 2nd death (sinful nature) comes before the 1st death. (Literal death)
b] When you ask a converted Christian (who had the 2nd death) are you completely free of sins? The answer is (almost) always no.
Must someone be totally pure to enter Heaven/New Jerusalem or will "s/he is quite clean" do too?
So perhaps all enter LoF but for some it just feels like a hot summer day and for others it feels like a blast furnace.
Well, I know the LOF is not referred to as the second death until death and hades are thrown in. When satan is tossed in, the beast and false prophet are already there. Satan, the beast and false prophet are the only things "tormented" in the LOF. It isn't said what happens to the others thrown in, although presumably, because it's just been called the second death, those who are thrown in die. That is not to say however, that those who die the second death stay dead, because all will be made alive in Christ and God will be all in all once all death is abolished. So we know that all death, including the second death will be abolished.
I think the others are also tormented.
But I have to add I use the 'teaching/testing' as the defenition of torment.
God is a refiners fire.
A goal of a refiner is to remove dirt from the gold/silver. Not to vaporize the gold/silver.
So I think the impurities die. (the sin part)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2009, 11:08:11 PM
I think the others are also tormented.
But I have to add I use the 'teaching/testing' as the defenition of torment.
God is a refiners fire.
A goal of a refiner is to remove dirt from the gold/silver. Not to vaporize the gold/silver.
So I think the impurities die. (the sin part)
I think we can only make the case that the others are 'tormented' in the LOF if we use a figurative interpretation of the LOF as the second death. If it's a literal second death, then they just die. I think it's clear from the language in that passage though, that only the beast, satan, and the false prophet are spoken of as being tormented there. Everyone else appears to receive their 'testing' at the GWT judgment. And if you look carefully at the text, it doesn't specifically say what happens to other beings or entities thrown in.
We can infer that they are tormented there from the statement about the other three thrown in, but the text doesn't specifically state that. I'm inclined to go with the interpretation that since it's just been referred to as the second death (once death and hades are thrown in) that now that's what happens to anyone else thrown in. That at least seems more obvious to me than the other interpretation. I could be wrong.
Here is the text:
Rev 20:10
And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."
Rev 20:11 And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them."
Rev 20:12
And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And the scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts."
Rev 20:13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."
Rev 20:14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15
And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
You are right claiming that it isn't said the people cast into the lake are tormented.
But they are not in the book of life.
=> Not life/alive = death
Not being in the book of life is a bad thing.
So I don't think being cast in LoF is a pleasant reward.
What exactly happens in LoF.... I'm just speculating to learn and to get feedback.
Time for me to leave this world and enter the dream world. :lazy:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2009, 11:46:08 PM
You are right claiming that it isn't said the people cast into the lake are tormented.
But they are not in the book of life.
=> Not life/alive = death
Not being in the book of life is a bad thing.
So I don't think being cast in LoF is a pleasant reward.
What exactly happens in LoF.... I'm just speculating to learn and to get feedback.
Time for me to leave this world and enter the dream world. :lazy:
Exactly. That's what bugs me, it doesn't specifically state there what happens to those thrown in, we are left to guess a bit.
Sleep well.
I didn't know if it's best to start a new thread or respond to an older one...?
I was thinking of this - and maybe it's been discussed before :dontknow: but, what if the 1st death for Christians is death to self, aka, to be reckoned our old nature "crucified with Christ" and then the 2nd death would be our actual physical death (not that I believe we pass from life to heaven at death, which just seems untidy to me, but I will look again at the interlinear of 1 Thess , and 1 cor 15 says we "put on immortality" at His return) but that aside...
If that were the case then might it be reversed for those (not yet saved/believing/written in the book) in that their actual physical death is the first, and dying to self would be their second...?
Tho I still believe most (if not all) by end of judgment 'day' will believe/be in the book.. But this would be a different slant than commonly believed by so many - although many believe death is but another type of life/living... But also implied, once the old nature is dead, it's really and truly dead/expired/exterminated (at His return). Something to truly of course celebrate. :banana: :cloud9:
...God bless..
Revelation 2:11 - "injured by the second death." I think Marie is on the right track. I see the fire, and the men unhurt in it, as a type of the Overcomers in the LoF. Look at this: "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. I any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. I any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." I Corinthians 3:11-15 KJV
The Overcomer will have built on the foundation of Jesus the Christ his gold, silver, and precious stones. These will survive the fire of the LoF, and so the Overcomer will not suffer loss (be hurt). Others will suffer loss and be hurt, but they will be saved. I don't think they will inherit (receive a reward) in the Kingdom either.
I can see that, and I think it's right. I'm not sure why, but I always find myself thinking about the LOF as a couple of things or more. Like you too have included..
Like a telescoping thing like with prophecy, like repeating patterns. (Maybe that's what Eaglesway/John means by wheels within wheels? :idea2: ?)
...Including "our God is a consuming fire"? And nothing impure can survive His truest essence of being a consuming fire, holy and pure, so pure as to consume away anything and everything not pure.
:Chinscratch: ..you know fire and water don't really go together.. Just a passing thought how the Holy Spirit of God is compared to water.. including baptism.
And what can be carried forward out of this life? Only those things built that have lasting value, like you said, the gold, silver.. like gems. #one being one's relationships and things we learn. (Our #1 relationship being with Him! :banana: )
If there comes to be fierce, perhaps thermonuclear war in the Middle East i could see a literal LOF occurring (because of all the oil?) Also after the thousand years when the adversary is let out of the pit and armies surround the city of God, but fire comes down from heaven consumes them, in my imagination another lake. (This all before the 2nd resurrection. :thumbsup: )
Yet the one after judgment day is equated with a 2nd death..
All very interesting! But one thing we happily know for absolute,
"Remember and return to Jehovah, do all ends of the earth,
and before Thee bow themselves, do all families of the nations."
- Ps 22:27, Young's Literal Translation
..there was another LOF thread recently, wasn't there? :doh:
What if the lake of fire is a symbol of baptism, you know John said, He.. Jesus... would baptize with spirit and fire (Luke 3:16-17). That would also be the second death, old man dying, resurrection to life.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on August 07, 2016, 08:30:54 PM
What if the lake of fire is a symbol of baptism, you know John said, He.. Jesus... would baptize with spirit and fire (Luke 3:16-17). That would also be the second death, old man dying, resurrection to life.
CHB
I like that :dsunny:
'Death', 1st and 2nd..will be abolished according to the Bible.
I do not believe anyone who's name is written in the Lamb's book of life will experience the second death, whatever it is really, exactly, is.
"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1 Jn 3:14
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15
As Darryl pointed out, all death will eventually be abolished, and God will be all in all. Whatever the lake of fire is, it is(imo) for those who are still hard hearted when they die.
I would feel confident to say all those who have passed from death into life are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2016, 07:15:00 AM
I do not believe anyone who's name is written in the Lamb's book of life will experience the second death, whatever it is really, exactly, is.
"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1 Jn 3:14
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15
As Darryl pointed out, all death will eventually be abolished, and God will be all in all. Whatever the lake of fire is, it is(imo) for those who are still hard hearted when they die.
I would feel confident to say all those who have passed from death into life are written in the Lamb's book of life.
:iagree: :thumbsup:
I believe anyone that has accepted Christ and recieved newness of life has passed out of death (as represented by the Lake of Fire in Revelation) and will welcome everyone else out of death, and into the life they found. That is why I do not believe the second death is for the overcomer. They already overcame death.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2016, 07:15:00 AM
I do not believe anyone who's name is written in the Lamb's book of life will experience the second death, whatever it is really, exactly, is.
"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1 Jn 3:14
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15
As Darryl pointed out, all death will eventually be abolished, and God will be all in all. Whatever the lake of fire is, it is(imo) for those who are still hard hearted when they die.
I would feel confident to say all those who have passed from death into life are written in the Lamb's book of life.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2016, 07:15:00 AM
I do not believe anyone who's name is written in the Lamb's book of life will experience the second death, whatever it is really, exactly, is.
"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1 Jn 3:14
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24
"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15
As Darryl pointed out, all death will eventually be abolished, and God will be all in all. Whatever the lake of fire is, it is(imo) for those who are still hard hearted when they die.
I would feel confident to say all those who have passed from death into life are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Hurray!
D.
I have all but give up , speaking about the beautiful things of God in detail , hoping to hear , so sorry been tired , but there is always the hope of a seed planted /Word of God in our heart when prepared by God for it to take root and grow in truth and grace ,, It has always been God our Heavenly Father that gives the increase of Spiritual growth
and not of ourselves , ourselves actually get in the way and stunt the growth in ourselves and others ...
Jesus explains this well in the 4 gospels of those whom will not enter themselves but stand in the door way not letting others enter as well . You have to go though the DOOR first before you can receive and JESUS CHRIST IS THAT DOOR ..
I am the door of the sheepfold John 10;7 , the door , not a door or any door /gate it is the ONLY way in, and is though Him only being our ALL .
He stands at the door and knocks ..... Only he knocks , the thief and robber never knocks , but enters some other way and is the same as a thief and robber ...
but than we have that scripture that says THE DAY OF THE LORD comes as a thief in the NIGHT 1 THESS 5 The Day of the Lord
1Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.3While people are saying, "Peace and security," destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
when you consider these are two entirely different meanings and not to be confused with each other as some do and have
The whole book of Revelation is the DAY OF THE LORD in great detail and it IS the 1000 year reign and describes exactly how it is done in full detail .
Jesus went to the cross to undo what Adam did and Adam lived 930 years just shy of the THE DAY he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and was dead , in the DAY /1000 years you die and are dead and the dead in Adam know nothing , When Jesus said it is finished , it was the finished work of taking the keys of hell and death back and away from the ''works of the devil '' and what Adam had done in the garden of LIFE .BY THE WORD made flesh [This leaves 70 years of Babylon of captivity and fear of death , this is the shortened days of our flesh , lest none/flesh would be saved , by the grace of God .... When you read all of Revelation you can see the destruction of Babylon by God undoing all Her damage , those DAY OF THE LORD being fully described in Revelation in bowles poured out and seals opened and trumpets blowing and churches being under the 7 eyes of the all seeing Spirits of God FULLY EXPOSED being fulfilled and finished by HIS SPIRIT .
Just putting this is short explanations , because with all the scriptures it would be a mile long :eek:
The first death was in Adam that all die and in Christ all shall be made alive , God promised to pour out His Spirit on ALL flesh and this is exactly what HE DID /DOES . but now we are seeing the WORD OF GOD being made flesh .. of his own body and flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone etc.. it is sure in the here and now
The first death was the water [ baptism / coming up out of death, the watery grave ] the voices and many waters from below , from the dragon flood of lies and murder in the heart of the earth , the earth helped the ''woman '' by swallowing up this flood of lies and filth of corruption , this is what Adam opened up sin for all mankind to experience and this is what Jesus Christ completed in LOVE and forgiveness for sin and taking death captive in HIS OWN BODY ,God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. Being the Lord of the dead and the living ,HIS BODY IS BEING MADE ALIVE THOUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF FIRE OF GODS JEALOUSY destroying BABYLON WITH HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE .[3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth building the TEMPLE OF GOD ].. the second appearing of Christ would be without sin ,27Just as man is appointed to die once[watery grave ], and after that to face judgment[Holy Spirit and fire]
2Peter 3 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3&version=KJV (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3&version=KJV)again the Day of the LORD that comes upon those waiting on the LORD in the second appearing
Hebrews 9 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.,, This second death being the Lake of fire is the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE BAPTISM [ and the City of ZION Isiah 33https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+33 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+33)] and Hebrews 12 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12) shows us the destroyer being destroyed [satan , the false prophet and the beast being burned ] after they have burned her flesh with fire in Revelation as Babylon is falling AND REV 17 - 20 being fulfilled This all wrapped up in the DAY OF THE LORD /1000 year reign while being the in the SPIRIT by the WORD both ALIVE and moving within and without .. and overcoming the world as it has been set on fire by the Lord Himself Jesus Come this second time to set the world on HOLY SPIRIT FIRE , the men whose hearts burned within them when Jesus opened up the scriptures to them Heb 1 The Supremacy of the Son
...6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all God's angels worship Him."7Now about the angels He says: "He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire." 8But about the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of Your kingdom....
Its here just for your consideration only , not saying this is the end all , but only sharing what the Holy Word & Spirit has been teaching me on a personal level , we are all in the different places the Lord has given us , and have been so comforted by them and was just sharing hoping the same comfort would come to others and it has me .... GOD BLESS :HeartThrob:
rosered,
Pretty much what I was getting at. :dsunny:
CHB
Thanks Rose! For sharing those insights!
Quote from: rosered on August 08, 2016, 02:19:04 PM
The first death was the water [ baptism / coming up out of death, the watery grave..
Was where my thoughts were at.. and I'm wondering if Christendom (and you, Rose, I was thinking of) has this thought, that for a believer the 1st death - is thought to be the dying to self (process we are in)
I know, or think I know, that it's your belief Christians do not become unconscious at our physical death, but go to be with the Lord.. And you likely know I think we 'sleep' and await His call to awaken..
I'm not sure which view is the more accurate.. and I don't believe we will know until He returns, or we die and go to be with Him, whichever occurs. I daresay more believers believe we go to be with Him, as conscious, than believe we sleep til His return..
:Peace2: :girlheart: God bless!
Thanks Charlotte CHB.... :HeartThrob:
Thanks Marie ....... :HeartThrob:
Jesus is the resurrection HE IS THE DAY ..THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD. This knowledge of God , what is dead and being made alive already in HIS BODY holding it all together... Jesus was informing Martha that HE IS THE DAY /LIGHT OF GOD but Martha in her darkness could not comprehend it .
John 11 When Jesus states this powerful WORD OF TRUTH to us ...24Martha replied, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.
26 And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
I was just summing up and HIS WORD AND SPIRIT IS saving all HIS CREATION THOUGH CHRIST the powerful anointing of the Holy Spirit of the FATHER AND THE SON ,,, What helped most was realizing that ALL THINGS was made by Him and though Him and FOR HIM nothing was made except though HIS WORD being Jesus Christ CALLED EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK OF LIFE ... ....THE WORD OF GOD ..
In the beginning we have the LIGHT called the Day and ruling over the Day and birthing children of the day for the beginning to the end from the Alpha and Omega every jot and tittle .. the night is those whom sleep in the dust and the law of Moses is given for them signs
we have the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb as those signs of the overcoming the world in Revelation 15... as the Kingdoms become GODS KINGDOM
14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
The finished work of the HOLY SPIRIT being able to enter the temple and NO MAN enter the TEMPLE till the test of the 7 last plagues that is the wrath of God against Babylon is completed , yet JESUS CHRIST IS BUILDING THE TEMPLE
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+15)
...18On account of this, the Jews demanded, "What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things." 19Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again."
Jesus Christ come in the fulness of Time as a man born of woman under the law , 5to redeem those under the Law, that we might receive our adoption as sons THIS IS ALSO A SIGN and marvellous in our eyes Give Thanks to the Lord, for He is Good
...22The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone.
23This is the LORD'S doing; It is marvelous in our eyes. 24This is the day which the LORD has made; Let us rejoice and be glad in it....
The Spirit of prophecy which is Jesus Christ testimony /witness / LIVING WORD has been speaking this all along ..
By Him and though Him were all things made HE ALONE hold life and death and sets the captives free by HIS WORD OF TRUTH
The Supremacy of Christ
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together....
1 JOHN is very powerful in the WORD OF LIFE BY THE SPIRIT OF LIFE AS BOTH WITNESSES 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
I see John as a star /angel / messenger in the darkness called night under the law of Moses and a witness to the LIGHT APPEARING AS THE DAY rising in our hearts Luke 1 ;78Zechariah's Song
...77to give to His people knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, 78because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the Dawn will visit us from on high, 79to shine on those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace."...
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying,
"This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Lots of scriptures are gathering together seeing the MOST BEAUTIFUL KING OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST :HeartThrob:
Amen, Rose! The verses you posted remind me also of in psalm 2 where it says "this is the decree, You are my Son" and also those great verses which say "all things are being gathered into Jesus" all things having been created in and through Him, who is the light (of life?) that lights every person..
Paul didn't know if it were better to live on teaching or to die and "go to the Lord". I think there's different opinions on what go to the Lord after one's death is(whether conscious or not conscious).
One thing I feel I know for sure is, ultimately the result of sin is death, as in perishing, but Jesus paid that penalty "for us, and also for all the world" (all who ever live and have lived). So He saves us from death, and it's cause. (Sin, flaw, fallen state, imperfection)
"God is savior of all", but without His rescue I feel all would perish and die forever. That's without God's rescue/Jesus redemption accomplished, ultimately for all. Meaning of course all will come to believe. I can believe no less of our perfect and totally able Heavenly Father, who is Love.
"Remember and return to Jehovah, do all ends of the earth, and before Thee bow themselves, do all families of the nations." - Ps 22:27, Young's Literal Translation
"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess 'Jesus is Lord'.." - I love how that verse is written 3 times in scripture..
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :girlheart:
Quote from: marie glen on August 08, 2016, 07:36:59 PM
Amen, Rose! The verses you posted remind me also of in psalm 2 where it says "this is the decree, You are my Son" and also those great verses which say "all things are being gathered into Jesus" all things having been created in and through Him, who is the light (of life?) that lights every person..
Paul didn't know if it were better to live on teaching or to die and "go to the Lord". I think there's different opinions on what go to the Lord after one's death is(whether conscious or not conscious).
One thing I feel I know for sure is, ultimately the result of sin is death, as in perishing, but Jesus paid that penalty "for us, and also for all the world" (all who ever live and have lived). So He saves us from death, and it's cause. (Sin, flaw, fallen state, imperfection)
"God is savior of all", but without His rescue I feel all would perish and die forever. That's without God's rescue/Jesus redemption accomplished, ultimately for all. Meaning of course all will come to believe. I can believe no less of our perfect and totally able Heavenly Father, who is Love.
"Remember and return to Jehovah, do all ends of the earth, and before Thee bow themselves, do all families of the nations." - Ps 22:27, Young's Literal Translation
"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess 'Jesus is Lord'.." - I love how that verse is written 3 times in scripture..
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :girlheart:
Amen ! love you sister Marie :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
we want mercy on all the same that has been given to us , learning though the experiences, Life and death
are ours :girlheart: 2 Corh 4
...10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.
11For we who are alive are always consigned to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our mortal bodies.
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you....
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2009, 08:22:08 PM
(CLV) "'"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
(EngSinaiticus) He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
(Mace) he that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith to the churches, he that overcometh, shall not be hurt by the second death."
(Darby) He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He that overcomes shall in no wise be injured of the second death.
(AUV-NT) "The person who has an ear should listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to the churches. The person who has victory [in the Christian life] will not be harmed at all by the second death [i.e., the lake of fire. See 21:8].
Am I correct when reading the above Rev 2:11 as: Everyone will die a 2nd death but for the believer it won't be painful.
The second death is for all unbelievers, resurrected at the white throne to be judged. The Elect are already resurrected and glorified. They will not be injured by the second death. The second death injures those who enter it. Injured or harmed never means hurt. The word injure is literally "do an injustice"" and does not imply that the lake of fire will hurt, that is, cause physical pain or suffering. The word hurt gives the wrong impression of physical suffering. This comes out clearly in a number of translations: hurt not the oil and the wine (Rev.6:6), hurt the earth (7:2,3), hurt the grass (9:4). Oil and wine and the earth and the grass may be injured or harmed, but never hurt, because they cannot feel physical pain.
Rev. 2 :11 (ECB) Whoever has an ear, hear what the Spirit words to the ecclesiae: Whoever triumphs is never no way injured of the second death.
To go off what you are saying, the verse could be understood as "the one who trumphs will not be done the injustice of the second death."
The original OP question "Am I correct when reading the above Rev 2:11 as: Everyone will die a 2nd death but for the believer it won't be painful."
My answer would be that this relies on an unfounded assumption. Someone could go into an ocean and either drown or not drown. But someone who doesn't go into an ocean at all would definitely not drown. So, just saying that the overcomer will not be injured of the second death doesn't qualify as evidence, to me, that the overcomer is in the LOF at all.
Furthermore, when we zoom out and take the passages in context, rather than a single sentence, we see a picture of God's people in a city where the waters of LIFE are, and the LOF is OUTSIDE the city. There is a clear separation between inside the city vs outside the city. And there is a warning that anyone who changes the words of the prophecy will have their share of the holy city and the tree of life removed.
None of that suggests to me that God's people are meant for the LOF outside the city where a certain kind of death is and where the tree of life is not.
Yes Seth :thumbsup:
I agree that no believers go to the LOF.. But I was wondering if since we die to self during this life - reckoned as crucified with Christ.. If, possibly, one might think of this as a first death, then the believer's second death would be the physical death, which as believers we are not harmed by..
I know it's a little weird. It would be backwards what is for the not yet saved during judgment day, or after.
But somehow it's gotten stuck in my head that we do die twice, one as a process of dying to self, which we actually do first.
I believe those "saved as by fire" is at Jesus' return.. When I figure the tares are gathered to Armageddon, just barely prior. And the wheat to Him/His barn.. Not that believers are gathered to Armageddon, though I suppose some could be (when you see armies surround Jerusalem).. But more as metaphor, their works vaporize, so to speak. At which time, Armageddon, with all the oil, I could see a sort of LOF at that time. :dontknow: literal? (But I'm getting sidetracked.)
If it's possible as believers our first dying, is to self. But to the not yet saved - their 2nd dying would be dying to self, as they have died once at physical death (tho I still think many or even possibly most, will repent and believe during judgment day.. in the LOF in rev 19 and 20 as purification/a dying to self - which we believers did in the opposite order.
:dontknow: :laughing7: don't know if I'm making any sense in my thinking.. but it's stuck there nevertheless.. I've usually thought of the LOF/2nd death as forever death, but none would end up there.. Changing my tune.. Tho I'll confess I'm a little confused myself with my own thoughts but perhaps just because it's late.. :laughing7: sorry I think I'm starting to babble..!
Most here, I believe have already figured the LOF (for unbelievers/hard cases) is a purification [thus dying to self].. Just wondering if it's possible the 2nd dying for believers which will not harm us, is actual physical death.. :dontknow: thus the devil and his angels ultimately also die to self.. "All things in heaven and earth gathered into Jesus.
Since the Bible is filled with dualities there could be a lot of ways to see it. I tend to lean toward the first death being physical and the second death being metaphysical (death IN sin), life is the opposite of it. So, it's possible that the overcomers have already come out of a kind of "second death" in this life when they finish the race and are conformed to the image of Christ. I don't think there's any reason to be really dogmatic on that though since the Bible doesn't plainly explain it.
Speaking of dualities....:o)
There are so many verses that say believers have passed from death into life, from law into grace, etc., but....
Believers step into the fire as soon as they believe according to Jesus and Peter. We are in it. Fiery trials excavating our hidden parts and spreading the light through out our inner man, and increasing the image of Christ in a progressive way- I think that is what holiness and sanctification are about, holiness being about purpose and desire to be like Him.... sanctification about the process of becoming mature disciples.
That fire yields the "peacable fruit of righteousness".
I believe the blood of Jesus has cleansed everyone who bows the knee before Him in their hearts, and they are immediatley grafted into the Vine of life. His blood, the water of life, flows through that Vine and everyone attached to it.
"If we confess our sins He is just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Where the blood has reconciled and cleansed, the fire does not burn. We can stand in the presence of the one who is a consuming fire not because of our righteousness but because of His forgiveness. Righteousness, sanctification- the manifestation of His nature through us- is the result of His forgiving, cleansing and restoring,
"Behold I am making all things new!"
Wherever a believer is on that pathway, that believer has received grace and that grace is multiplying. Sometimes it doesnt seem so because we all struggle- but that is OK. It is a good thing. The struggle has immense value for us now and in the age to come it will have value also.
"If we are faithless He is faithful still and knows our hearts."
We can have confidence in the grace of God. His grace is sufficient for us. If we struggle, as long as we do not try to call sin righteousness- excusing our sins rather than agreeing with God... He WILL forgive all that we confess(inwardly acknowledge to Him) to 70 x 7 and way beyond. If we cannot see that forgiveness because we are in bondage to a spirit of condemnation from within OR from wthout- He knows, and will still draw us and Comfort us- but we may not receive the joy of it because of the veil of law over us.
We have faults and sins we dont even see, but that is what the Holy Spirit is doing for us, if we understand it. The Comforter is bringing us into grace. They were baptized in the Holy Spirit and Fire- yet Jesus said, "He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water"- this He spoke of the Holy Spirit that they were to receive......" The living water and the fire are the same. They are elements of the divine nature, manifested in words representing different functions.
Water....cleansing and enlivening.
Fire...purging and empowering
Wind... filling and freeing
When we read the words, "He will lead you and guide you into all truth" we tend to think of knowledge and doctrine.
I don't think that is the primary thing.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom. 7Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow"
Truth in the innermost being is seeing who we are and who He is. Every hidden thing brought to light. We can be fearless in the pursuit of Him because He forgave us already and He is drawing us to Him by grace, and filling us with Himself(all in all!).
A man's pride may be more sinful than a prostitutes transgression. God sees the secrets of the heart and knows where the brokeness is that causes our sin and He heals the brokeness with the "Balm of Gilead". The healing is where the victory begins, "By His stripes we are healed". Why? Because HE took our beating, so we do not have to be beaten- we have to be healed.
"Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed."
This what James was saying in the epistle. IMO he wasnt talking about physical healing here- because He had just said,
14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
They could confess to Him and to one another because they were not smothered with law and "beatings" for sins, so they could be unafraid in their confessions, in the spirit of bringing an injury to a friend for a ride to the hospital. That inner washing and that ministry of grace is where the victory comes, where the waters of deliverance flows- and where God will not be ashamed to visit His power and glory.
"You know not what spirit you are of!" was Jesus' response to the disciples wanting to call down fire one people.
I think the crystal sea before the throne and the lake of fire are the same thing. "They will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lord"... "Know you not you will judge the world?"...."Everyman will be salted with fire"....
Since the lake of fire is in the presence of the holy angels/messengers and the Lamb(Rev 14:10), I think we will sit with Him on His throne and we will pray and reason and wash the lost with grace and they will come, one by one until the last one- to the throne of grace.
It will be torment to stand against such love. It will burn like a fire. But it will be a flood of love that will consume the adversaries resistance until they bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and rejoice to the glory of God the Father.(1 Cor 15:23-28, Phil 2:9-11)
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".(John 12"32)
I believe this is how the Father will become ALL IN ALL in the ages to come(1 Cor 15, Eph 2:7), and how Jesus will gather all things into one in Christ(Eph 1:9-11). I believe it is the inheritance we will receive as sons and daughters. It is how we will reign- NOT as men reign with beatings and beratings. "Be not as the Gentiles who are darkened in their understanding.... for you are all brothers and sisters, and there is One who is your ruler"- and He reigns through love.
We are not done yet- and we will not be done when we when we reign with Him as a kingdom of preists in the resurrection(imo). We use the words and images of our meager world and wisdom to describe things that Paul and John both say cannot be fathomed fully in the present time, but we see the foundational principles, and we know that God is love, and that love never fails!
So, if I believe no believer will endure the lake of fire, it is because I believe they have already been received as an acceptable offering, holy and sanctified, offered in the fire of His Spirit. Those who do go into the lake of fire- will receive their "blessing" :laughing7: in the form of a holy intervention in the love, light and glory of God and the Lamb.
good post john :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 09, 2016, 08:55:30 AM
"Behold I am making all things new!"
Wherever a believer is on that pathway, that believer has received grace and that grace is multiplying. Sometimes it doesnt seem so because we all struggle- but that is OK. It is a good thing. The struggle has immense value for us now and in the age to come it will have value also.
"If we are faithless He is faithful still and knows our hearts."
We can have confidence in the grace of God. His grace is sufficient for us. If we struggle, as long as we do not try to call sin righteousness- excusing our sins rather than agreeing with God... He WILL forgive all that we confess(inwardly acknowledge to Him) to 70 x 7 and way beyond. If we cannot see that forgiveness because we are in bondage to a spirit of condemnation from within OR from wthout- He knows, and will still draw us and Comfort us- but we may not receive the joy of it because of the veil of law over us.
We have faults and sins we dont even see, but that is what the Holy Spirit is doing for us, if we understand it. The Comforter is bringing us into grace. They were baptized in the Holy Spirit and Fire- yet Jesus said, "He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water"- this He spoke of the Holy Spirit that they were to receive......" The living water and the fire are the same. They are elements of the divine nature, manifested in words representing different functions.
Water....cleansing and enlivening.
Fire...purging and empowering
Wind... filling and freeing
.............................
Since the lake of fire is in the presence of the holy angels/messengers and the Lamb(Rev 14:10), I think we will sit with Him on His throne and we will pray and reason and wash the lost with grace and they will come, one by one until the last one- to the throne of grace.
It will be torment to stand against such love. It will burn like a fire. But it will be a flood of love that will consume the adversaries resistance until they bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and rejoice to the glory of God the Father.(1 Cor 15:23-28, Phil 2:9-11)
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".(John 12"32)
I believe this is how the Father will become ALL IN ALL in the ages to come(1 Cor 15, Eph 2:7), and how Jesus will gather all things into one in Christ(Eph 1:9-11). I believe it is the inheritance we will receive as sons and daughters. It is how we will reign- NOT as men reign with beatings and beratings. "Be not as the Gentiles who are darkened in their understanding.... for you are all brothers and sisters, and there is One who is your ruler"- and He reigns through love.
We are not done yet- and we will not be done when we when we reign with Him as a kingdom of preists in the resurrection(imo). We use the words and images of our meager world and wisdom to describe things that Paul and John both say cannot be fathomed fully in the present time, but we see the foundational principles, and we know that God is love, and that love never fails!
So, if I believe no believer will endure the lake of fire, it is because I believe they have already been received as an acceptable offering, holy and sanctified, offered in the fire of His Spirit. Those who do go into the lake of fire- will receive their "blessing" :laughing7: in the form of a holy intervention in the love, light and glory of God and the Lamb.
Amen. :dsunny:
Amen! to the above amens! :laughing7:
I agree :thumbsup:
There are TWO kinds of fire to whcih I believe the Bible refers. The fiery trials of faith. And the fire that tries those without faith.
Isaiah 9...for wickeness is like a fire....
So, in a sense, when the chosen receive faith, they step out of one fire and into a better one. They step out of the fire that tried the Prodigal Son, and into the fire that tried the Apostles and the saints.
:iagree:
Quote from: Seth on August 09, 2016, 07:11:16 PM
I agree :thumbsup:
There are TWO kinds of fire to whcih I believe the Bible refers. The fiery trials of faith. And the fire that tries those without faith.
Isaiah 9...for wickeness is like a fire....
So, in a sense, when the chosen receive faith, they step out of one fire and into a better one. They step out of the fire that tried the Prodigal Son, and into the fire that tried the Apostles and the saints.
I think there are more than two kinds of fire.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on August 10, 2016, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 09, 2016, 07:11:16 PM
I agree :thumbsup:
There are TWO kinds of fire to whcih I believe the Bible refers. The fiery trials of faith. And the fire that tries those without faith.
Isaiah 9...for wickeness is like a fire....
So, in a sense, when the chosen receive faith, they step out of one fire and into a better one. They step out of the fire that tried the Prodigal Son, and into the fire that tried the Apostles and the saints.
I think there are more than two kinds of fire.
CHB
LOL ,Sorry not trying to be contrary !
But I believe there is ONLY ONE FIRE that comes forth out of God whom is the CONSUMING FIRE of His jealousy and will Not give His glory to another .
In the beginning God asked Adam with Eve , Who told you that you were naked ?''.
All is naked and laid bear before Him always , the graves are open before Him also , those 7 eyes of the Seven Spirits are the intensity of the fire and Light increasing as the darkness has no place to exist/hide Zechariah 4:10 tells us that these seven (lamps) are the eyes of the Lord.
Hebrews 4 God's Word is Living and Active
12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. 14 Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess....
2 Chronicles 16:9
"For the eyes of the LORD move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is completely His. You have acted foolishly in this. Indeed, from now on you will surely have wars."
Job 26:6
"
Naked is Sheol before Him, And Abaddon has no covering.Psalm 33:13
The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men;
Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
Proverbs 5:21
For the ways of a man are before the eyes of the LORD, And He watches all his paths.
Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.Jeremiah 16:17
"
For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes.
Jeremiah 23:24
"Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.
Jeremiah 29:23
because they have acted foolishly in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbors' wives and have spoken words in My name falsely, which I did not command them; and I am He who knows and am a witness," declares the LORD.'"
Daniel 2:22
"It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things; He knows what is in the darkness, And the light dwells with Him.
The fire of Gods consuming is brought about by the LOVE that is stronger than death ..
I have thought of Paul and him saying I was alive without the law once , but the law came , the fiery LAW OF GODS consuming jealousy and put him to death
brings forth death of the man of sin in him EXPOSED !! LAID BARE OPENED ...
Romans 7 God's Law is Holy
...8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the Law,
sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came,
sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death.... 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
How does the fire effect the dead that know nothing as they ought ? and how does the fiery law bring death so sin is dead in us ?By the continual Fire burning in us all !!
How was Paul
deceived by sin ruling over him and him Not ruling over the sin nature ?
GODS SPIRIT TO ME IS THE FIRE AND LIFE AND LIGHT now LIVING IN him that keeps the sinful nature /satan /adversity having hold in the fire of Gods consuming jealousy .
and their own wickedness in Isaiah 9 is using the law unlawfully to harm and hurt others and yet they are not accountable before God ?? These are the deceived as Paul once was ... So as you judge so shall YOU be judged by your own words and deeds
Jesus even asked Saul/Paul when the LIGHT HAD COME THE LAW OF LOVE AND JEALOUSY, why are YOU kicking against the pricks /goads ?
Making their own flesh /bodies SUFFER more BY disobedience and rebellion , being even more tormented , to add fuel to the fire creating even more briars and thorns to be consumed by the FIRE of Gods jealousy , HE owns us all ..those being full of spiritual immaturity ....
Hebrews 6 A Call to Maturity
...7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God.
8
But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—of things that accompany salvation....
I see the Fire and Light of the Holy Spirit as a blessing that will always cast out and burn the undesired things God will never tolerate ,
Let God judge he is perfect in every way to save all that was lost ... all we have to do is ask it of Him ..
:Chinscratch: I think there is one fire and different manifestations..
I myself, down to earth girl (well grannie) always think of 'apoclypse' - the crashing and burning which unveils truth from error - as a kind of lof.. the fiery results of our own destructions, whatever they may be.. individual and collective/national.. All stating "our God is a consuming fire".. imperfection can never endure.. two paths of life to God or away from God.. the away from God is always a fire.. God's way or no way.. It's a natural law because He is a consuming fire. :dontknow: :2c: :gsmile:
I think its a semantical argument.
So when dicussing those different manifestations of the fire are we supposed to give a prelude every time that there is only one fire and different manifestations?
Or are we able to speak of those different manifestations and their elements as different fires?
I mean the campfire on the beach everyone is singing around is the same fire as the fire that destroys 500,000 acres of forest and the fire by which Christian saints were burned at the stake right?
Yet they are dfferent fires as well and woud be discussed in their relative specifics.
Same with water. Is the flood that destroyed Noah the same as the fountain of living waters.... was that the water of life?
Is there only one water?
Probably, but its would be a futile circular argument in semantics to debate it.
On the day of Pentecost the fire that lit upon them caused rejoicing in every language. Aionian pyr does not cause rejoicing. Jesus said so Himself.
"All correction is at the moment unpleasant but in the end it yields the peacable fruit of unrighteousness"
Of course! That's very true.. I can't speak for anyone else, but what I was referring to is judgment which often is results, or is like:
James 3:6
"and the tongue [is] a fire, a world of unrighteousness... setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna." (YLT)
That one way leads to life - Love God, through Jesus - and the other direction, away from God, only ever leads to destruction, because He is a consuming fire, and the course of nature is set on fire...
:Peace2: :dsunny:
Quote from: CHB on August 10, 2016, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 09, 2016, 07:11:16 PM
I agree :thumbsup:
There are TWO kinds of fire to whcih I believe the Bible refers. The fiery trials of faith. And the fire that tries those without faith.
Isaiah 9...for wickeness is like a fire....
So, in a sense, when the chosen receive faith, they step out of one fire and into a better one. They step out of the fire that tried the Prodigal Son, and into the fire that tried the Apostles and the saints.
I think there are more than two kinds of fire.
CHB
It may have been helpful to expand on that, but either way, I referred to two kinds of fire because of a particular duality about thier nature.
If wickedness is like a fire and God is like a fire, obviously those two are not the same thing. They are opposites though both symbolized by fire.
Adding to what Eaglesway said. I think in a semantic argument it's worth considering that there is no actual fire. Saying that there is "one fire" is like saying that the fire is actual. Fire is a symbol. There may be different aspects of fire that may be useful for different metaphors, such as warmth for a positive use or destruction for a negative use. There is one God but potentially limitless ways to use fire as a metaphor, some of which may symbolize God, and others to symbolize wickeness and so on. If someone is saying that fire ONLY represents God at all times in the Bible, there are going to be several scriptural problems to resolve with that.
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2016, 05:15:01 AM
Adding to what Eaglesway said. I think in a semantic argument it's worth considering that there is no actual fire. Saying that there is "one fire" is like saying that the fire is actual. Fire is a symbol. There may be different aspects of fire that may be useful for different metaphors, such as warmth for a positive use or destruction for a negative use. There is one God but potentially limitless ways to use fire as a metaphor, some of which may symbolize God, and others to symbolize wickeness and so on. If someone is saying that fire ONLY represents God at all times in the Bible, there are going to be several scriptural problems to resolve with that.
GOD IS THE ALMIGHTY , nothing exists without GOD .HE ALONE is the source of ALL THINGS period ...., literally or Spiritually speaking , most cannot see the forest [Big picture ] for the trees [main focus ]as the WORD teaches us the difference ..
FIRE it is a figure of speech ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage. the Bible is Full of these examples . God has always had them separated from the beginning those things above and the things below .
GODS nature is A Spiritual TRUTH and described as GOD IS LOVE , GOD IS SPIRIT , GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE , no carnal mind can comprehend spiritual things , but can only be compared to natural things , not supernatural things , but gives the idea of by comparisons .
Just the it is written if God had not left us a seed we would be the same as Sodom and Gomorrah [city destroyed by Fire of Gods wrath ]
And wickedness is that
fuel for the fire of Gods consuming up the evil ,that is no more .
Now ,'' a teaching '' as an example for us as we use reasoning and discernment by understanding the truth and meaning ...
Speaking with the tongue/language of men and speaking with the tongue of angels /messengers has always been a difficult task and without Love it is pointless and does nothing but cause more divisions and confusion by mixing , double mindedness has always tripped the hearer and caused the stumbling .
Only God Himself gives the Spiritual growth from the nature of carnal mindedness [death and focusing on the things below ] and all the madness and chaos of this world below is set in .
But God gives us proof , In HIS WORD , by faith also praying in the Spirit and asking Him for the help to rise above it all in our hearts knowing .
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2016, 05:10:13 AM
If wickedness is like a fire and God is like a fire, obviously those two are not the same thing. They are opposites though both symbolized by fire.
....? fight fire with fire? Just kidding! ..don't mind me.. :laughing7:
Quote from: rosered on August 11, 2016, 12:50:07 PM
FIRE it is a figure of speech ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.
..It's SO weird that the LOF became so fixed in people's minds as a literal place.. literal, material place.. Whereas, saying it's the 2nd death, doesn't that alone suggest its transient and temporary nature?
QuoteGOD IS THE ALMIGHTY , nothing exists without GOD .HE ALONE is the source of ALL THINGS period ...., literally or Spiritually speaking , most cannot see the forest [Big picture ] for the trees [main focus ]as the WORD teaches us the difference ..
FIRE it is a figure of speech ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage. the Bible is Full of these examples . God has always had them separated from the beginning those things above and the things below .
GODS nature is A Spiritual TRUTH and described as GOD IS LOVE , GOD IS SPIRIT , GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE , no carnal mind can comprehend spiritual things , but can only be compared to natural things , not supernatural things , but gives the idea of by comparisons .
Just the it is written if God had not left us a seed we would be the same as Sodom and Gomorrah [city destroyed by Fire of Gods wrath ]
And wickedness is that fuel for the fire of Gods consuming up the evil ,that is no more .
I don't disagree with much of this. Although Isaiah 9 says that wickedness
itself is like a fire and people are fuel for it. And there are many other scriptures that make the same comparison. In fact, in the very Deuteronomy scripture where it says that God is a consuming fire, it also says Egypt was an iron smelting furnace for the Israelites. Egypt. The Pagan, God-defying enslavers of Exodus.
The Bible has alot of examples where a physical thing can represent both a negative or positive other thing. So, yes I do agree there is one God, but I don't believe that the fire is one thing.
Quote from: rosered on August 11, 2016, 12:50:07 PM
FIRE it is a figure of speech ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.
..It's SO weird that the LOF became so fixed in people's minds as a literal place.. literal, material place.. Whereas, saying it's the 2nd death, doesn't that alone suggest its transient and temporary nature?
[/quote]
Hi Marie , Yes! , it is odd that the ''fixation '' of the lake of fire is only spoken of once in Rev 19 and only in chapter 20 describing the 2nd death .
As to where ''harming '' or hurting those not written in the book of life .
And the place the false prophet and beast are in , as satan is bound in the abyss for the 1000 year reign
Oddly ''a lake'' , when you consider the meaning of a lake , it is place surrounded by land and is fed or drained by another source of water , but ''contained '' larger/deeper than a pond , but is as a basin or bowl .
For me personally I can only see Revelation as symbolic in meaning because it is the descriptive language of Johns experience of the DAY OF THE LORD while being in the Spirit as an angelic message from above , not in his fleshly mind at the time ... a descriptive vision of what everyone will experience on the DAY OF THE LORD or 1000 year reign of Christ being the only main authority and what takes place in that Day .
And find it is mainly to destroy Babylons hold on anyone that has been bound to its lying spirits[many delusions of falsity ] and is a prisoner to Her , Jesus Christ Being the TRUTH AND THE LIFE , already has the authority over hell/graves and death when rising up from the CROSS and sits at the right hand of the Father , His finished work and at last the finished work of the Heavenly Father giving Him[The Son ] all authority over ''all things '' above , in the earth and below Till God be all in all . ...
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2016, 05:18:26 PM
QuoteGOD IS THE ALMIGHTY , nothing exists without GOD .HE ALONE is the source of ALL THINGS period ...., literally or Spiritually speaking , most cannot see the forest [Big picture ] for the trees [main focus ]as the WORD teaches us the difference ..
FIRE it is a figure of speech ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage. the Bible is Full of these examples . God has always had them separated from the beginning those things above and the things below .
GODS nature is A Spiritual TRUTH and described as GOD IS LOVE , GOD IS SPIRIT , GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE , no carnal mind can comprehend spiritual things , but can only be compared to natural things , not supernatural things , but gives the idea of by comparisons .
Just the it is written if God had not left us a seed we would be the same as Sodom and Gomorrah [city destroyed by Fire of Gods wrath ]
And wickedness is that fuel for the fire of Gods consuming up the evil ,that is no more .
I don't disagree with much of this. Although Isaiah 9 says that wickedness itself is like a fire and people are fuel for it. And there are many other scriptures that make the same comparison. In fact, in the very Deuteronomy scripture where it says that God is a consuming fire, it also says Egypt was an iron smelting furnace for the Israelites. Egypt. The Pagan, God-defying enslavers of Exodus.
The Bible has alot of examples where a physical thing can represent both a negative or positive other thing. So, yes I do agree there is one God, but I don't believe that the fire is one thing.
Hi Seth ,
I do believe the Word of God is what judges us all , as it is what dwells within us all , and it can mean so many different things , depending on what that particular person is experiencing . when you read this passage , The thing Jesus said to satan , was man shall not live by bread alone , but every WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God , I do believe , just as the examples in the bible are speaking to the evil spirits and satan and not to the human being , but the human being is being ''held '' captive [as a slave ] by this sin nature , over ridden by evil/darkness working in them . the man in the tombs is an excellent example of that ..
I know Jesus come to save that which was lost and being the bread of heaven , but the WORD OF GOD IS A FIRE that consumes His enemies and they are our enemies as well . Jesus prayer in Matt 6 says is to keep us[protect us ] from the EVIL ONE , Very significant meaning here as to not confuse the poor sinner being a slave to it , still has Hope in Christ and rejecting Him has consequences .
John 12 47As for anyone who
hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him.
For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words:
The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it....
THE FATHER IS SPEAKING THOUGH JESUS CHRIST and warning the evil ones of sudden destruction and the mortal bodies of mankind , as being saved though the fire , a fiery trial and judgment ,do experience the lake of fire in my opinion and are injured ...it sure is a two edged SWORD / WORD and is the same flaming Sword of Gen 3 protecting the TREE OF LIFE and only granted when found worthy of it Rev 3
His WORD IS LIKE A FIRE JER 23 ...28"The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has
My word speak My word in truth.
What does straw have in common with grain?" declares the LORD.
29
"Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock? 30"Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who steal My words from each other....
The Word , keeps us and also destroys all things that offend that are found'' rising up'' in us all ...
I read Deut 28 and it is a clear message of obedience is far better than suffering for wrong doing as we learn what truth and righteousness is in the earth as it is in heaven and the hope and promise of a new heaven and earth are waiting on those what believe and obey His command. . You will have no other gods before ME ..Those gods will be destroyed by the consuming fire of His jealousy and very painful for the ones whom must experience that burning them out ..
Some of the scriptures relating to this painful experience of judgment and reward ...
1 Corinthians 3:12,13 Now if any man build on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones,
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
14If what he has built survives,
he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire. 16Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?...
Job 23:10
"But He knows the way I take; When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.
Psalm 66:10
For You have tried us, O God; You have refined us as silver is refined.
Psalm 66:12
You made men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water, Yet You brought us out into a place of abundance.
Jude 1:23
save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others, show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh.
...
Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed;
and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"...
I see things similarly, probably the same. There is a passage where Jesus says, "away from me ye who work iniquity." That's also being judged by his word. So, in that sense, being away from him would be an aspect of judgement fire. To me that is why I believe the LOF is related to a kind of death that the Bride beckons them out of and into the city where the tree of life is. I believe the LOF represents not knowing God and for some having been cast away from him, and salvation from that condition is a result of repentance and entering the Holy City.
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2016, 08:13:37 PM
I see things similarly, probably the same. There is a passage where Jesus says, "away from me ye who work iniquity." That's also being judged by his word. So, in that sense, being away from him would be an aspect of judgement fire. To me that is why I believe the LOF is related to a kind of death that the Bride beckons them out of and into the city where the tree of life is. I believe the LOF represents not knowing God and for some having been cast away from him, and salvation from that condition is a result of repentance and entering the Holy City.
I do see those things similarly as well Seth and Hang on tight to Jesus every Word ,and ask Him for the meaning because , when He says the WORD judges us on the last Day
The Lord helped me to see somthing I never knew before when comparing the scriptures with other scriptures and it was about , How that no man can enter the temple until the last of the 7 bowls is poured out destroying Babylon , By His Spirit working in them is completed , than can they enter the temple of the Living God , to me that is when they get to become a priest of God and making the same intercession of the righteous man praying availing much,,, for me this understanding is to clear out every idol out of HIS dwelling place[robbers and thieves spirits ] ... YOU BEING THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD , This being within our hearts
15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire. 16Do you not know that
you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?...
Rev 15
15 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last,
because in them the wrath of God is finished.2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. 3 And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
"Great and marvelous are Your works,
O Lord God, the Almighty;
Righteous and true are Your ways,
King of the nations!
4 "
Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy;
For all the nations will come and worship before You,For Your righteous acts have been revealed."5 After these things I looked, and
the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, 6 and the seven angels who had the seven plagues
came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes
. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels
seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever. 8
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished. Until I took it personally and intended for the hearer of what the Spirit is saying ,
it never crossed my mind that is was speaking directly to us , ''at the time at hand in power '' .
Considering this whole process as GODS WORD AND SPIRIT working in us and on us , with the level we can grasp it with .
Jesus Christ is being the Word and that seed of Life , planted in our hearts came in our sinful bodies and laying His Life down in death , our moral bodies
as a dead letter under the law of sin and death that He could raise it back up again into Life from the dead , in His first appearing it was the WORD made flesh and when the Spirit gives it Life being poured out on all flesh , that Spiritual growth in truth and grace would come though them BOTH as witnesses IN Rev 11 Seeing that is what was working in every man from the beginning to the end , those called and those chosen to represent that WORD OF TRUTH AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH against the evil that dwells also in mankind ... The Word is a Fire and So is the Spirit a Fire that consumes all enemies and sending the bowls of wrath down on the earth in our mortal bodies as the Spirit of jealousy not giving His glory to another , ONLY the SON OF GOD . Ezek 36..
and Ezek 8 the abominations done in the temple .
An example being , seeing Mose stumble over the Word by taking the glory upon himself striking the rock twice /JESUS being the WORD OF GOD , for living water and not giving glory to God and him not entering the promised land while being mortal , Body of Christ / BRIDE [HOLY CITY that comes down out of heaven ] , I realize Moses purpose was proof of God dealing with mankind and was for the purpose of teaching us and never doubt his name is not written in the lambs book of Life . The cross was to give new Life and bought them back from the dead , to me those were raised up into Gods glory in Christ
Just our examples of God dealing with Adam / all mankind throughout the ages in symbolism being mortal and the being made immortal in Christ . Our seed of faith , hope and Love in every man .
Jesus would come a 2nd time without sin , this being our mortal bodies by faith as good as dead already and would appear unto salvation for those eagerly waiting Him and would raise the dead in Christ to a higher understanding .
I cannot write worth a dime , sorry about that , I have a hard time , but keep trying just the same .
God bless
This reminds me of what I have been saying which is that the ekklesia goes through a kind of similar process, only before others do. Everyone has had a conversation with sin and everone must step out of it. So I see a kind of LOF existing today in the world and the ekklesia being plucked out of it when they enter into the City by faith today. In the final judgment I see a continuation of that process until everyone is folded in.
Quote from: marie glen on August 11, 2016, 04:38:05 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2016, 05:10:13 AM
If wickedness is like a fire and God is like a fire, obviously those two are not the same thing. They are opposites though both symbolized by fire.
....? fight fire with fire? Just kidding! ..don't mind me.. :laughing7:
Quote from: rosered on August 11, 2016, 12:50:07 PM
FIRE it is a figure of speech ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.
..It's SO weird that the LOF became so fixed in people's minds as a literal place.. literal, material place.. Whereas, saying it's the 2nd death, doesn't that alone suggest its transient and temporary nature?
yes, fixed in people's minds as a literal place where God tortures people in fire...what a hideous idea that offends every God given sense of morality, justice and decency...the 2nd death will be abolished and this Truth needs to be lovingly explained to the hellators :dsunny: :banana:
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2016, 10:16:36 PM
This reminds me of what I have been saying which is that the ekklesia goes through a kind of similar process, only before others do. Everyone has had a conversation with sin and everone must step out of it. So I see a kind of LOF existing today in the world and the ekklesia being plucked out of it when they enter into the City by faith today. In the final judgment I see a continuation of that process until everyone is folded in.
Seth, I really like the way you have worded your last post here.
We know that he who has the Son has life (now), and we know that every knee
will bow and every tongue
will confess; so we know that everyone
will have the Son and
will have life (eventually). To me the when and how may be uncertain, but the final outcome is certain.
rosered
Most excellent posts!
Pat
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Patinak on August 12, 2016, 04:18:32 AM
rosered
Most excellent posts!
Pat
Thank you for the encouragement brother ,
I have struggled to put in to words , many times and cannot post with clarity . One day soon . God willing we will all have that gift of Clarity , like crystal clear waters above , from the Lord's blessing :HeartThrob:
Fire, Wind, Water... All figures of speech.
But each one represents something real. Figures of speech are coined to communicates elements of reality, so fire can be somewhat fearsome for sure, and Jesus described it as fearsome, but an interesting verse is.....
"Fear has torment, but perfect love casts out all fear."
The fire is fearsome to a piece of wood, but not to a precious stone. It can be fearsome to metals, because it breaks them down and separates the alloys....
He will be like a refiners fire and a fullers soap and He will purify the sons of Levi..... "I will smelt away all your alloys(impurities)"
Alloys can make metals stronger but in this case the spirit is addressing alloys that make metal unsuitable to a fine craftsman- like lead added to gold to make it look like you have more than you really do, or iron added to gold which makes it inflexible and unworkable- but better for killing people.
YHWH removed access to the ministry in the holy place and the most holy place from the levites and restricted it to the sons of Zadok- because the sons of Zadok taught Israel to discern between good and evil in the days of Israels backslidings- when the sons of Levi backslid with them.
Its the same way today. We who have "entered the house" are being purified.
"Entrust your souls to those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to know the difference between good and evil, flesh and spirit"
Those who know how to discern between pure gold and impure alloys are the craftsmen God uses to shape His Lampstand.
Exod 25:31-40 "You shall also make a lampstand of pure gold; the lampstand shall be of hammered work. Its shaft, its branches, its bowls, its ornamental knobs, and flowers shall be of one piece. And six branches shall come out of its sides: three branches of the lampstand out of one side, and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side. Three bowls shall be made like almond blossoms on one branch, with an ornamental knob and a flower, and three bowls made like almond blossoms on the other branch, with an ornamental knob and a flower-- and so for the six branches that come out of the lampstand. On the lampstand itself four bowls shall be made like almond blossoms, each with its ornamental knob and flower. And there shall be a knob under the first two branches of the same, a knob under the second two branches of the same, and a knob under the third two branches of the same, according to the six branches that extend from the lampstand. Their knobs and their branches shall be of one piece; all of it shall be one hammered piece of pure gold. You shall make seven lamps for it, and they shall arrange its lamps so that they give light in front of it. And its wick-trimmers and their trays shall be of pure gold. It shall be made of a talent of pure gold, with all these utensils. And see to it that you make them according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain."
And they had to use clear oil for burning....etc, always purity is a key, and purity comes by fire, pressure, movement
Nothing that sits too long in one place remains pure. Water without currents become stagnant and undrinkable. Wine that has "settled on its lees" is distasteful- before centrifuges they stomped out the grapes in the winepress, then they let it settle, then they poured off the liquid- but it wasnt yet drinkable. They let it settle again and again, each time pouring off clearer liquid and tossing the "lees"- the leftover impurities.
"Moab has been at ease since his youth; He has also been undisturbed, like wine on its dregs, And he has not been emptied from vessel to vessel, Nor has he gone into exile. Therefore he retains his flavor, And his aroma has not changed. 12"Therefore behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will send to him those who tip vessels, and they will tip him over, and they will empty his vessels and shatter his jars....Jer 48
This what Jesus was saying, "The axe is layed to the root of the trees"... "I will thoroughly purge My threshing floor"...."I will gather the wheat and burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire"
The chaff and the lees/dregs are the same. Figures of speech for something real. A way to open our understanding to God's perspectiveof us- and get in agreement with Him.
Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way to court. Otherwise he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny....
In this case the adversary is the Spirit of God, and the sharp two-edged Sword of the Spirit, dividing asunder soul and spirit...making manifest the thoughts and the intentions of the heart.
The humble will be exalted, the arrogant will be abased. The pure in heart see God, the broken and contrie heart dwells in His exalted height. Those who have been through the fire and been purified by it are "vessels fit for the Master's use".
Those vessels that have not been willing to be poured and repoured, smell like themselves...retain the odor of man. This can be applied in a teacher to student process(discipleship) or it can be applied in a corrective process(you will not get out till you have paid the last penny).
WHile the one(discipleship) is difficult, it is employed through grace and with the Comfort of the Spirit. The other(corrective) is more painful and requires breakings that are not necessary for the obedient, the faithful, the humble.
Thus we have the Lake of Fire, and Gehenna- figures of speech representing different aspects of the process of purification, being broken; being delivered of chaff and alloys by fire; becoming a vessel fitted, being rejected for impurities, being purified and restored, etc.
Upon reading and thinking about Marie's post # 33 , can we consider the first and second death in two scenarios depending on which eon we are dealing with? One being in the current eon and the other in the final one. The final one involves the LOF. The current eon does not have in it the LOF. LOF is only mentioned in Revelation in 5 verses. I agree with EW that a fire is a fire whether a camp fire a forest fire. God is a consuming fire, however He uses His fire in various manifestations such as the burning bush, cloven tongues as of fire, or LOF depending on its specific purpose. And as Seth points out, fire can be used metaphorically in scripture too (i.e. James 3:6).
In this current eon, Christians are tested and tried with the fire of God's Spirit. For the Elect, those in Christ, fiery trials are to be expected. As Marie has stated:
.. But I was wondering if since we die to self during this life - reckoned as crucified with Christ.. If, possibly, one might think of this as a first death, then the believer's second death would be the physical death, which as believers we are not harmed by.. But somehow it's gotten stuck in my head that we do die twice, one as a process of dying to self, which we actually do first.
Concerning the Elect, we the believers, experience God's chastening and beneficial fire. So lets consider how this relates to the first and second death?
And these fiery trials as Peter calls them go on for a lifetime. If it were real, physical fire, all believers' lives would be short indeed. It is God's Spirit that is likened to fire in various ways.
Many scriptures tell us that we are to experience God's chastening fire:
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe_1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
For a Christian the chastening fire is the first death.
Many scriptures tell us that we are to die to self, die to the flesh and die to sin
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2Ti_2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
Col_3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
So for the Elect, we may construe that our first death occurs when we are in Christ. Later we experience the second death physically. Then we await the first resurrection whether we are alive at his return or dead in the unseen (grave).
Also God's fire is applied to all of mankind, believer and non-believers, depending on their time for God's intervention.
Mar_9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Death and LOF in the final eon
In the final eon there will be the resurrection to judgement of all unbelievers. Resurrected to physical life. They will have experience the first death in prior eons. They are in their graves until the white throne judgement at which time they are resurrected.
When He Who is sitting on the great white throne, judges, or sets right, all who stand before it, there is no more affliction or distress possible.
Marie mention this in her post #33 also:
If it's possible as believers our first dying, is to self. But to the not yet saved - their 2nd dying would be dying to self, as they have died once at physical death (tho I still think many or even possibly most, will repent and believe during judgment day.. in the LOF in rev 19 and 20 as purification/a dying to self - which we believers did in the opposite order.
At the Great White Throne they will be judged according to their acts. God will be paying each one in accord with the personal and social deeds of evil committed. The result will be judgment and condemnation in accord with their acts. It is at the White Throne that all the irreverence and injustice committed by humans will receive just adjudication and all wrongs will be made right. After justice has been fully meted out to each one, they will experience the second death, the LOF. These Scriptures in Revelation tell us that, after the great and small have been judged before the Great White Throne and paid their due were cast into the lake of fire--which is the second death. The second death is not accompanied by any prolonged, painful infliction. There is no distressing delay or suffering, but all are ushered into death in an instant
The judging is past. All are ready for reconciliation. They are simply dissolved in death (LOF), so that, in their experience, they go from the judgment scene right into the reconciliation, when God becomes their All.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
First group -
The Elect (Believers)
First death of self (Christ in us)
second death (physical)
then first resurrection to life (immortality)
Second group -
The rest of humanity (Unbelievers)
First death (physical)
second resurrection to judgement
second death in LOF
then life (vivication) at the consummation
I do believe all humans go through the same essential, basic conversion. We are born in iniquity and then drawn out of it. So, I do think that when a believer passes from death to life through faith, he is going through the same conversion as those in the 2nd resurrection.
However, I take the term "second death" to be applied only to who the Bible says it is applied to, which is described in Revelation. To go beyond that, I think muddies the waters a bit as to what the intended meaning of John's vision is, whatever that meaning may be. I can't agree that "second death" is inevitable for believers, even as a literal death, because I don't see that being presented by John in his vision. His vision ascribes the term "second death" to a specific group of people, and not to another specific group of people if we take Revelation 21 and 22 as a whole.
In other words, "second death," whatever that is to anyone, is not for anyone who has an inheritance in the Holy City, because Apostle John sets "second death" IN CONTRAST to the Holy City, where God has placed the Tree of Life. For the second death to be applied to the ekklesia means that they have to have their inheritance of the Holy City removed and they are cast out of it into the second death, again whatever that may be to anyone. According to Revelation 22, there is a warning about that regarding those who change the words of the prophecy. But, I don't see physical death removing a faith inheritance.
I believe we have to consider the WHOLE PICTURE in Revelation, not just the line about a second death. We have to consider what second death is IN RELATION to the other images and situations John describes along with it in context. :2c:
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2016, 10:16:36 PM
This reminds me of what I have been saying which is that the ekklesia goes through a kind of similar process, only before others do. Everyone has had a conversation with sin and everone must step out of it. So I see a kind of LOF existing today in the world and the ekklesia being plucked out of it when they enter into the City by faith today. In the final judgment I see a continuation of that process until everyone is folded in.
Quote from: Seth on August 12, 2016, 08:16:44 PM
I do believe all humans go through the same essential, basic conversion. We are born in iniquity and then drawn out of it. So, I do think that when a believer passes from death to life through faith, he is going through the same conversion as those in the 2nd resurrection.
However, I take the term "second death" to be applied only to who the Bible says it is applied to, which is described in Revelation. To go beyond that, I think muddies the waters a bit as to what the intended meaning of John's vision is, whatever that meaning may be. I can't agree that "second death" is inevitable for believers, even as a literal death, because I don't see that being presented by John in his vision. His vision ascribes the term "second death" to a specific group of people, and not to another specific group of people if we take Revelation 21 and 22 as a whole.
In other words, "second death," whatever that is to anyone, is not for anyone who has an inheritance in the Holy City, because Apostle John sets "second death" IN CONTRAST to the Holy City, where God has placed the Tree of Life. For the second death to be applied to the ekklesia means that they have to have their inheritance of the Holy City removed and they are cast out of it into the second death, again whatever that may be to anyone. According to Revelation 22, there is a warning about that regarding those who change the words of the prophecy. But, I don't see physical death removing a faith inheritance.
I believe we have to consider the WHOLE PICTURE in Revelation, not just the line about a second death. We have to consider what second death is IN RELATION to the other images and situations John describes along with it in context. :2c:
I agree Seth that the second death is not so called in the bible except in the book of revelation. Your point is well made. However I believe we die into Christ when He is in us and eventually we die a physical death as all mortals do. To call that a "second death" is inappropriate, I agree. But neither should we make the assumption that "we see a kind of LOF existing today". :2c: :2c: :sigh:
:friendstu:
When I say that, I am refering to ekklesia coming out of death in this life, which spiritual death I believe shares the same nature as the "second death." Kind of like the expression, "that was my Waterloo" without it actually being Waterloo. I believe that the ekklesia have inherited the Holy City today as a down payment form and will receive the final reward after resurrection.
I believe , the some are born that never die [Was Christs from the beginning ] chosen/elect] always ...some live and never die [Christ]
and all the rest die [in Adam] but will live because of faith and What Jesus Christ did ,done ,doing /Was /is / will become to all
Simply put Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the Life that has always been from the beginning/Alpha to the end/Omega .
That death in the fulness of time was for the world an open showing [to be a witness ] and represents the Love God has for mankind , to remove that fear of death if you believe in the LIVING God/the ONLY GOD and Father of us all and the Son /the one of a kind and First in Power over all things .
Jesus come took death into captivity , being the Lord of all ...
For me at this time , I am under the impression , that the flesh doesn't even count as anything in Gods sight and a mortal death is nothing . , It would count only as a rising up into a higher Spiritual being / the soul or core of existence & spirit being joined back into His own LIFE Being, as waiting to be risen into newness of life and promised .
and JESUS CHRIST being that total authority now is the time , raises up into Life whom soever He will because HE ALONE IS THE LIFE GIVING SPIRIT with all that has been given Him as Life by Him already . as a Gathering into Life in this reign of power over all death and presenting them to His Father the LIVING GOD .
Some pretty powerful Living Words of Life here to believe in , for sure .
The Father and the Son
...20The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.
21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes.
22 Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son,...
Jesus come to save mens lives not destroy them .. what is destroyed is the evil that was found in them by the brightness of His presence , all will see Him , even those whom pierced Him , each in their own order ..
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.
and whom lives and believe in Him will NEVER DIE . not ever they have lived and reigned with Christ in the Day /1000 yrs as His chosen ones / explained in Revelation , they have the Life giving Spirit already working in them already .
Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the presence of God, in whom he believed, the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not yet exist.
Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells within you.
1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life-giving spirit." ALL WILL LIVE because of Him and the glory was His that was always with the FATHER from the beginning ...
I hope this is clear , many times you know something , so deep in the core of your being , but cannot explain it very well , But the Lord says try and dont give up and wait on Him till the end :HeartThrob: God bless us with more of His Life giving SPIRIT OF TRUTH. setting us free ..
rosered
You're just on fire lately! On all of your posts... it's like we're surrounded by your fire...it's like being in a lake of fire! :doh:
Quote from: Patinak on August 13, 2016, 07:23:01 PM
rosered
You're just on fire lately! On all of your posts... it's like we're surrounded by your fire...it's like being in a lake of fire! :doh:
GOD BLESS you hon !!
I dont know , the Lord set me in a quiet place for awhile and was empty and began to feel cut off ,
But was filling me up with all this Light I never knew before!
and example a lesson learned , was with my son , whom is very handicapped Nathan Daniel , I was bathing him and trying to clean him up for the day , when
He struggles against me , I become frustrated with him and just do quickly what I can with him
but when he sits in quiet stillness and lets me work on him , I can clean him thoroughly and peaceably doing all the things that needs to done , like cleaning his teeth and flossing , when he fights against me , it has been chaos , but has learned to sit still and let me do what needs to be done to help him , because he knows it makes him feel better and so he can do better , growing in grace and trust
and the lesson was for me to SEE this is exactly what Jesus does for us !!!
So it is that peace and calm finally allowing the HOLY SPIRIT to His work perfectly and completely in us , cleansing us from all unrighteousness and removing filth of the flesh with a clean conscience , that is teachable and open and ready to receive , the flesh must be done away with in Christ because that was never pleasing to God in the first place , but it was all we can offer Him when we do not know any better in the beginning ,as our poor offerings LOL
LOVING WHAT THE SPIRIT is doing in our lives as heaven opened up to us all and we can see the Glory of God on the earth as it is in heaven , truly all things are becoming new in Christ s LIGHT and knowledge of Gods love .....
Much blessings brother from the only One who can supply all our needs :HeartThrob: