Rev 2:11 - Everyone dies a 2nd death (?)

[CHB]

rosered,

Pretty much what I was getting at.  :dsunny:

CHB

[marie glen]

Thanks Rose! For sharing those insights!

The first death was the  water [ baptism / coming up out of  death, the watery grave..

Was where my thoughts were at.. and I'm wondering if Christendom (and you, Rose, I was thinking of) has this thought, that for a believer the 1st death - is thought to be the dying to self (process we are in)

I know, or think I know, that it's your belief Christians do not become unconscious at our physical death, but go to be with the Lord.. And you likely know I think we 'sleep' and await His call to awaken..

I'm not sure which view is the more accurate.. and I don't believe we will know until He returns, or we die and go to be with Him, whichever occurs. I daresay more believers believe we go to be with Him, as conscious, than believe we sleep til His return..
   :Peace2: :girlheart: God bless!

[rosered]

Thanks Charlotte   CHB....   :HeartThrob:

Thanks Marie .......  :HeartThrob:
Jesus is the resurrection   HE IS THE DAY ..THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD.  This knowledge of God ,   what is dead and being  made alive  already in HIS BODY  holding it all together...  Jesus was informing  Martha   that HE IS THE DAY /LIGHT OF GOD but Martha in her darkness could not comprehend it .

    John 11   When Jesus states this powerful WORD OF TRUTH   to us ...24Martha replied, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.

He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.

26 And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

I was just summing up  and HIS WORD AND SPIRIT  IS  saving all HIS CREATION  THOUGH CHRIST the powerful anointing of the Holy Spirit of  the FATHER AND THE SON ,,, What helped  most was realizing  that ALL THINGS was made by Him and though Him and FOR HIM nothing was made  except  though HIS WORD being Jesus Christ  CALLED EVERYTHING  IN THE BOOK OF LIFE ... ....THE WORD OF GOD ..

In the beginning we have the LIGHT called the Day  and  ruling over the Day and birthing children of the day for the beginning to the end    from the Alpha and Omega     every jot and tittle ..   the night is those whom sleep  in the dust  and the law of Moses  is given for them signs
we have the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb  as those signs of the overcoming the world  in Revelation 15... as the Kingdoms become GODS KINGDOM

14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

The finished work of the HOLY SPIRIT  being  able to  enter the temple  and  NO MAN enter the  TEMPLE  till  the test of the 7 last plagues  that  is the wrath of God against Babylon   is completed ,   yet   JESUS CHRIST IS   BUILDING THE TEMPLE

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+15
...18On account of this, the Jews demanded, "What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things." 19Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again."

Jesus Christ come in the fulness of Time   as a man born of woman  under the law  , 5to redeem those under the Law, that we might receive our adoption as sons THIS IS ALSO A SIGN and marvellous in our eyes      Give Thanks to the Lord, for He is Good
...22The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone.

23This is the LORD'S doing; It is marvelous in our eyes. 24This is the day which the LORD has made; Let us rejoice and be glad in it....


The Spirit of prophecy  which is Jesus Christ testimony /witness /  LIVING WORD   has been speaking   this all along ..

By Him and though Him were all things made  HE ALONE hold life and death  and sets the captives free  by HIS WORD OF TRUTH   

  The Supremacy of Christ
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together....

1 JOHN  is very powerful   in the WORD OF LIFE BY THE SPIRIT OF LIFE AS BOTH WITNESSES 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

I see John as a star /angel / messenger  in the darkness  called night under the law  of Moses and a witness to the LIGHT APPEARING  AS THE DAY   rising in our hearts    Luke 1 ;78Zechariah's Song
...77to give to His people knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, 78because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the Dawn will visit us from on high, 79to shine on those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace."...

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying,

"This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Lots of  scriptures are gathering together  seeing the MOST BEAUTIFUL KING  OUR  LORD JESUS CHRIST   :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen, Rose! The verses you posted remind me also of in psalm 2 where it says "this is the decree, You are my Son" and also those great verses which say "all things are being gathered into Jesus" all things having been created in and through Him, who is the light (of life?) that lights every person..

Paul didn't know if it were better to live on teaching or to die and "go to the Lord". I think there's different opinions on what go to the Lord after one's death is(whether conscious or not conscious).

One thing I feel I know for sure is, ultimately the result of sin is death, as in perishing, but Jesus paid that penalty "for us, and also for all the world" (all who ever live and have lived). So He saves us from death, and it's cause. (Sin, flaw, fallen state, imperfection)

"God is savior of all", but without His rescue I feel all would perish and die forever. That's without God's rescue/Jesus redemption accomplished, ultimately for all. Meaning of course all will come to believe. I can believe no less of our perfect and totally able Heavenly Father, who is Love.

"Remember and return to Jehovah, do all ends of the earth, and before Thee bow themselves, do all families of the nations." - Ps 22:27, Young's Literal Translation

"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess 'Jesus is Lord'.." - I love how that verse is written 3 times in scripture..

  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :girlheart:

[rosered]

Amen, Rose! The verses you posted remind me also of in psalm 2 where it says "this is the decree, You are my Son" and also those great verses which say "all things are being gathered into Jesus" all things having been created in and through Him, who is the light (of life?) that lights every person..

Paul didn't know if it were better to live on teaching or to die and "go to the Lord". I think there's different opinions on what go to the Lord after one's death is(whether conscious or not conscious).

One thing I feel I know for sure is, ultimately the result of sin is death, as in perishing, but Jesus paid that penalty "for us, and also for all the world" (all who ever live and have lived). So He saves us from death, and it's cause. (Sin, flaw, fallen state, imperfection)

"God is savior of all", but without His rescue I feel all would perish and die forever. That's without God's rescue/Jesus redemption accomplished, ultimately for all. Meaning of course all will come to believe. I can believe no less of our perfect and totally able Heavenly Father, who is Love.

"Remember and return to Jehovah, do all ends of the earth, and before Thee bow themselves, do all families of the nations." - Ps 22:27, Young's Literal Translation

"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess 'Jesus is Lord'.." - I love how that verse is written 3 times in scripture..

  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :girlheart:

Amen  ! love you sister Marie  :HeartThrob:    :dsunny:
we want  mercy on all the same that has been given to us  , learning though the experiences,     Life and death are ours    :girlheart: 2 Corh 4


...10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.

11For we who are alive are always consigned to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our mortal bodies.

12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you....

[joeteekay]

(CLV)  "'"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."

(EngSinaiticus)  He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.

(Mace)  he that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith to the churches, he that overcometh, shall not be hurt by the second death."

(Darby)  He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He that overcomes shall in no wise be injured of the second death.

(AUV-NT)  "The person who has an ear should listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to the churches.  The person who has victory  [in the Christian life]  will not be harmed at all by the second death  [i.e.,  the lake of fire.  See 21:8].


Am I correct when reading the above Rev 2:11 as: Everyone will die a 2nd death but for the believer it won't be painful.

The second death is for all unbelievers, resurrected at the white throne to be judged. The Elect are already resurrected and glorified. They will not be injured by the second death. The second death injures those who enter it. Injured or harmed never means hurt.  The word injure is literally "do an injustice"" and does not imply that the lake of fire will hurt, that is, cause physical pain or suffering.  The word hurt gives the wrong impression of physical suffering.  This comes out clearly in a number of translations: hurt not the oil  and the wine (Rev.6:6), hurt the earth (7:2,3), hurt  the grass (9:4). Oil and wine and the earth and the  grass may be injured or harmed, but never hurt, because  they cannot feel physical pain.


Rev. 2 :11 (ECB) Whoever has an ear, hear what the Spirit words to the ecclesiae: Whoever triumphs is never no way injured of the second death.

[Seth]

To go off what you are saying, the verse could be understood as "the one who trumphs will not be done the injustice of the second death."

The original OP question "Am I correct when reading the above Rev 2:11 as: Everyone will die a 2nd death but for the believer it won't be painful."

My answer would be that this relies on an unfounded assumption. Someone could go into an ocean and either drown or not drown. But someone who doesn't go into an ocean at all would definitely not drown. So, just saying that the overcomer will not be injured of the second death doesn't qualify as evidence, to me, that the overcomer is in the LOF at all.
Furthermore, when we zoom out and take the passages in context, rather than a single sentence, we see a picture of God's people in a city where the waters of LIFE are, and the LOF is OUTSIDE the city. There is a clear separation between inside the city vs outside the city. And there is a warning that anyone who changes the words of the prophecy will have their share of the holy city and the tree of life removed.

None of that suggests to me that God's people are meant for the LOF outside the city where a certain kind of death is and where the tree of life is not.

[joeteekay]

Yes Seth  :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

I agree that no believers go to the LOF.. But I was wondering if since we die to self during this life - reckoned as crucified with Christ.. If, possibly, one might think of this as a first death, then the believer's second death would be the physical death, which as believers we are not harmed by..

I know it's a little weird. It would be backwards what is for the not yet saved during judgment day, or after.

But somehow it's gotten stuck in my head that we do die twice, one as a process of dying to self, which we actually do first.

I believe those "saved as by fire" is at Jesus' return.. When I figure the tares are gathered to Armageddon, just barely prior. And the wheat to Him/His barn.. Not that believers are gathered to Armageddon, though I suppose some could be (when you see armies surround Jerusalem).. But more as metaphor, their works vaporize, so to speak. At which time, Armageddon, with all the oil, I could see a sort of LOF at that time. :dontknow: literal? (But I'm getting sidetracked.)

If it's possible as believers our first dying, is to self. But to the not yet saved - their 2nd dying would be dying to self, as they have died once at physical death (tho I still think many or even possibly most, will repent and believe during judgment day.. in the LOF in rev 19 and 20 as purification/a dying to self - which we believers did in the opposite order.
:dontknow:  :laughing7: don't know if I'm making any sense in my thinking.. but it's stuck there nevertheless.. I've usually thought of the LOF/2nd death as forever death, but none would end up there.. Changing my tune.. Tho I'll confess I'm a little confused myself with my own thoughts but perhaps just because it's late.. :laughing7: sorry I think I'm starting to babble..!

Most here, I believe have already figured the LOF (for unbelievers/hard cases) is a purification [thus dying to self].. Just wondering if it's possible the 2nd dying for believers which will not harm us, is actual physical death..  :dontknow: thus the devil and his angels ultimately also die to self.. "All things in heaven and earth gathered into Jesus.

[Seth]

Since the Bible is filled with dualities there could be a lot of ways to see it. I tend to lean toward the first death being physical and the second death being metaphysical (death IN sin), life is the opposite of it. So, it's possible that the overcomers have already come out of a kind of "second death" in this life when they finish the race and are conformed to the image of Christ. I don't think there's any reason to be really dogmatic on that though since the Bible doesn't plainly explain it.

[eaglesway]

Speaking of dualities....:o)

There are so many verses that say believers have passed from death into life, from law into grace, etc., but....

Believers step into the fire as soon as they believe according to Jesus and Peter. We are in it. Fiery trials excavating our hidden parts and spreading the light through out our inner man, and increasing the image of Christ in a progressive way- I think that is what holiness and sanctification are about, holiness being about purpose and desire to be like Him.... sanctification about the process of becoming mature disciples.

That fire yields the "peacable fruit of righteousness".

I believe the blood of Jesus has cleansed everyone who bows the knee before Him in their hearts, and they are immediatley grafted into the Vine of life. His blood, the water of life, flows through that Vine and everyone attached to it.

"If we confess our sins He is just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Where the blood has reconciled and cleansed, the fire does not burn. We can stand in the presence of the one who is a consuming fire not because of our righteousness but because of His forgiveness. Righteousness, sanctification- the manifestation of His nature through us- is the result of His forgiving, cleansing and restoring,

"Behold I am making all things new!"

Wherever a believer is on that pathway, that believer has received grace and that grace is multiplying. Sometimes it doesnt seem so because we all struggle- but that is OK. It is a good thing. The struggle has immense value for us now and in the age to come it will have value also.

"If we are faithless He is faithful still and knows our hearts."

We can have confidence in the grace of God. His grace is sufficient for us. If we struggle, as long as we do not try to call sin righteousness- excusing our sins rather than agreeing with God... He WILL forgive all that we confess(inwardly acknowledge to Him) to 70 x 7 and way beyond. If we cannot see that forgiveness because we are in bondage to a spirit of condemnation from within OR from wthout- He knows, and will still draw us and Comfort us- but we may not receive the joy of it because of the veil of law over us.

We have faults and sins we dont even see, but that is what the Holy Spirit is doing for us, if we understand it. The Comforter is bringing us into grace. They were baptized in the Holy Spirit and Fire- yet Jesus said, "He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water"- this He spoke of the Holy Spirit that they were to receive......" The living water and the fire are the same. They are elements of the divine nature, manifested in words representing different functions.

Water....cleansing and enlivening.

Fire...purging and empowering

Wind... filling and freeing

When we read the words, "He will lead you and guide you into all truth" we tend to think of knowledge and doctrine.

I don't think that is the primary thing.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom. 7Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow"

Truth in the innermost being is seeing who we are and who He is. Every hidden thing brought to light. We can be fearless in the pursuit of Him because He forgave us already and He is drawing us to Him by grace, and filling us with Himself(all in all!).

A man's pride may be more sinful than a prostitutes transgression. God sees the secrets of the heart and knows where the brokeness is that causes our sin and He heals the brokeness with the "Balm of Gilead". The healing is where the victory begins, "By His stripes we are healed". Why? Because HE took our beating, so we do not have to be beaten- we have to be healed.

"Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed."

This what James was saying in the epistle. IMO he wasnt talking about physical healing here- because He had just said,

14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

They could confess to Him and to one another because they were not smothered with law and "beatings" for sins, so they could be unafraid in their confessions, in the spirit of bringing an injury to a friend for a ride to the hospital. That inner washing and that ministry of grace is where the victory comes, where the waters of deliverance flows- and where God will not be ashamed to visit His power and glory.

"You know not what spirit you are of!" was Jesus' response to the disciples wanting to call down fire one people.

I think the crystal sea before the throne and the lake of fire are the same thing. "They will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lord"... "Know you not you will judge the world?"...."Everyman will be salted with fire"....

Since the lake of fire is in the presence of the holy angels/messengers and the Lamb(Rev 14:10), I think we will sit with Him on His throne and we will pray and reason and wash the lost with grace and they will come, one by one until the last one- to the throne of grace.

It will be torment to stand against such love. It will burn like a fire. But it will be a flood of love that will consume the adversaries resistance until they bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and rejoice to the glory of God the Father.(1 Cor 15:23-28, Phil 2:9-11)

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".(John 12"32)

I believe this is how the Father will become ALL IN ALL in the ages to come(1 Cor 15, Eph 2:7), and how Jesus will gather all things into one in Christ(Eph 1:9-11). I believe it is the inheritance we will receive as sons and daughters. It is how we will reign- NOT as men reign with beatings and beratings. "Be not as the Gentiles who are darkened in their understanding.... for you are all brothers and sisters, and there is One who is your ruler"- and He reigns through love.

We are not done yet- and we will not be done when we when we reign with Him as a kingdom of preists in the resurrection(imo). We use the words and images of our meager world and wisdom to describe things that Paul and John both say cannot be fathomed fully in the present time, but we see the foundational principles, and we know that God is love, and that love never fails!

So, if I believe no believer will endure the lake of fire, it is because I believe they have already been received as an acceptable offering, holy and sanctified, offered in the fire of His Spirit. Those who do go into the lake of fire- will receive their "blessing" :laughing7: in the form of a holy intervention in the love, light and glory of God and the Lamb.

[jabcat]

good post john   :thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

"Behold I am making all things new!"

Wherever a believer is on that pathway, that believer has received grace and that grace is multiplying. Sometimes it doesnt seem so because we all struggle- but that is OK. It is a good thing. The struggle has immense value for us now and in the age to come it will have value also.

"If we are faithless He is faithful still and knows our hearts."

We can have confidence in the grace of God. His grace is sufficient for us. If we struggle, as long as we do not try to call sin righteousness- excusing our sins rather than agreeing with God... He WILL forgive all that we confess(inwardly acknowledge to Him) to 70 x 7 and way beyond. If we cannot see that forgiveness because we are in bondage to a spirit of condemnation from within OR from wthout- He knows, and will still draw us and Comfort us- but we may not receive the joy of it because of the veil of law over us.

We have faults and sins we dont even see, but that is what the Holy Spirit is doing for us, if we understand it. The Comforter is bringing us into grace. They were baptized in the Holy Spirit and Fire- yet Jesus said, "He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water"- this He spoke of the Holy Spirit that they were to receive......" The living water and the fire are the same. They are elements of the divine nature, manifested in words representing different functions.

Water....cleansing and enlivening.

Fire...purging and empowering

Wind... filling and freeing

.............................

Since the lake of fire is in the presence of the holy angels/messengers and the Lamb(Rev 14:10), I think we will sit with Him on His throne and we will pray and reason and wash the lost with grace and they will come, one by one until the last one- to the throne of grace.

It will be torment to stand against such love. It will burn like a fire. But it will be a flood of love that will consume the adversaries resistance until they bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and rejoice to the glory of God the Father.(1 Cor 15:23-28, Phil 2:9-11)

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".(John 12"32)

I believe this is how the Father will become ALL IN ALL in the ages to come(1 Cor 15, Eph 2:7), and how Jesus will gather all things into one in Christ(Eph 1:9-11). I believe it is the inheritance we will receive as sons and daughters. It is how we will reign- NOT as men reign with beatings and beratings. "Be not as the Gentiles who are darkened in their understanding.... for you are all brothers and sisters, and there is One who is your ruler"- and He reigns through love.

We are not done yet- and we will not be done when we when we reign with Him as a kingdom of preists in the resurrection(imo). We use the words and images of our meager world and wisdom to describe things that Paul and John both say cannot be fathomed fully in the present time, but we see the foundational principles, and we know that God is love, and that love never fails!

So, if I believe no believer will endure the lake of fire, it is because I believe they have already been received as an acceptable offering, holy and sanctified, offered in the fire of His Spirit. Those who do go into the lake of fire- will receive their "blessing" :laughing7: in the form of a holy intervention in the love, light and glory of God and the Lamb.

Amen.              :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Amen! to the above amens!  :laughing7:

[Seth]

I agree  :thumbsup:

There are TWO kinds of fire to whcih I believe the Bible refers. The fiery trials of faith. And the fire that tries those without faith.

Isaiah 9...for wickeness is like a fire....

So, in a sense, when the chosen receive faith, they step out of one fire and into a better one. They step out of the fire that tried the Prodigal Son, and into the fire that tried the Apostles and the saints.

[eaglesway]

 :iagree:

[CHB]

I agree  :thumbsup:

There are TWO kinds of fire to whcih I believe the Bible refers. The fiery trials of faith. And the fire that tries those without faith.

Isaiah 9...for wickeness is like a fire....

So, in a sense, when the chosen receive faith, they step out of one fire and into a better one. They step out of the fire that tried the Prodigal Son, and into the fire that tried the Apostles and the saints.

I think there are more than two kinds of fire.

CHB

[rosered]

I agree  :thumbsup:

There are TWO kinds of fire to whcih I believe the Bible refers. The fiery trials of faith. And the fire that tries those without faith.

Isaiah 9...for wickeness is like a fire....

So, in a sense, when the chosen receive faith, they step out of one fire and into a better one. They step out of the fire that tried the Prodigal Son, and into the fire that tried the Apostles and the saints.

I think there are more than two kinds of fire.

CHB

LOL ,Sorry not trying to be   contrary   !   
   But  I believe there is ONLY ONE FIRE  that comes forth out of God whom is the    CONSUMING FIRE  of His jealousy and will Not give His glory  to another .

In the beginning  God asked Adam with Eve ,  Who told you that   you were   naked ?''.

All is naked and laid bear before Him always  ,  the graves are open  before  Him also , those  7 eyes of the Seven Spirits are the   intensity of the  fire and Light increasing  as the darkness  has no place to  exist/hide    Zechariah 4:10 tells us that these seven (lamps) are the eyes of the Lord.

Hebrews 4 God's Word is Living and Active
12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. 14 Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess....

2 Chronicles 16:9
"For the eyes of the LORD move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is completely His. You have acted foolishly in this. Indeed, from now on you will surely have wars."

Job 26:6
"Naked is Sheol before Him, And Abaddon has no covering.

Psalm 33:13
The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men;

Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

Proverbs 5:21
For the ways of a man are before the eyes of the LORD, And He watches all his paths.

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.

Jeremiah 16:17
"For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes.

Jeremiah 23:24
"Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

Jeremiah 29:23
because they have acted foolishly in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbors' wives and have spoken words in My name falsely, which I did not command them; and I am He who knows and am a witness," declares the LORD.'"

Daniel 2:22
"It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things; He knows what is in the darkness, And the light dwells with Him.

The  fire of Gods consuming is  brought about by the LOVE    that is stronger than death ..

  I have thought of Paul and him saying  I was alive without the law once   , but the law came  , the fiery LAW OF GODS consuming jealousy   and put him to death
brings forth death of the man of sin in him EXPOSED !!   LAID BARE  OPENED ...
Romans 7 God's Law is Holy
...8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the Law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death.... 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

How does the fire effect the dead that know nothing as they ought  ?     and how does the fiery law bring  death so sin is dead in us ?By the continual Fire burning in us all !!
How was Paul deceived  by sin  ruling over him   and him Not ruling over the sin nature ?   

  GODS SPIRIT TO ME IS THE FIRE AND LIFE AND LIGHT now   LIVING IN him       that keeps the sinful nature    /satan /adversity having   hold    in the fire of Gods  consuming jealousy .
and their own wickedness in Isaiah  9 is using the law unlawfully    to  harm and hurt others    and yet they are not accountable before God ??  These are the deceived  as Paul once was      ... So as you judge so shall YOU be judged by  your own words and deeds   

Jesus even asked Saul/Paul   when the LIGHT HAD COME   THE LAW OF LOVE AND JEALOUSY, why are YOU   kicking against the pricks   /goads ?

Making their own flesh /bodies SUFFER more BY  disobedience  and rebellion , being even more  tormented ,   to add fuel to the fire creating even more  briars and thorns to be consumed by the FIRE of Gods jealousy , HE owns us all ..those  being  full of spiritual immaturity     ....

Hebrews 6 A Call to Maturity
...7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God.

8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

9 Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—of things that accompany salvation....

I see the Fire and Light of the Holy Spirit  as a blessing  that will  always cast out and burn the  undesired things God will never tolerate   ,
Let God judge he is perfect   in every way to save  all that was lost ... all we have to do is ask it of Him        ..

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch:  I think there is one fire and different manifestations..

               I myself, down to earth girl (well grannie) always think of 'apoclypse' - the crashing and burning which unveils truth from error - as a kind of lof.. the fiery results of our own destructions, whatever they may be.. individual and collective/national.. All stating "our God is a consuming fire".. imperfection can never endure.. two paths of life to God or away from God.. the away from God is always a fire.. God's way or no way.. It's a natural law because He is a consuming fire.  :dontknow: :2c: :gsmile:

[eaglesway]

I think its a semantical argument.

So when dicussing those different manifestations of the fire are we supposed to give a prelude every time that there is only one fire and different manifestations?

Or are we able to speak of those different manifestations and their elements as different fires?

I mean the campfire on the beach everyone is singing around is the same fire as the fire that destroys 500,000 acres of forest and the fire by which Christian saints were burned at the stake right?

Yet they are dfferent fires as well and woud be discussed in their relative specifics.

Same with water. Is the flood that destroyed Noah the same as the fountain of living waters.... was that the water of life?

Is there only one water?

Probably, but its would be a futile circular argument in semantics to debate it.

On the day of Pentecost the fire that lit upon them caused rejoicing in every language. Aionian pyr does not cause rejoicing. Jesus said so Himself.

"All correction is at the moment unpleasant but in the end it yields the peacable fruit of unrighteousness"

[marie glen]

Of course! That's very true.. I can't speak for anyone else, but what I was referring to is judgment which often is results, or is like:

James 3:6

"and the tongue [is] a fire, a world of unrighteousness... setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna." (YLT)

That one way leads to life - Love God, through Jesus - and the other direction, away from God, only ever leads to destruction, because He is a consuming fire, and the course of nature is set on fire...
     :Peace2: :dsunny:

[Seth]

I agree  :thumbsup:

There are TWO kinds of fire to whcih I believe the Bible refers. The fiery trials of faith. And the fire that tries those without faith.

Isaiah 9...for wickeness is like a fire....

So, in a sense, when the chosen receive faith, they step out of one fire and into a better one. They step out of the fire that tried the Prodigal Son, and into the fire that tried the Apostles and the saints.

I think there are more than two kinds of fire.

CHB

It may have been helpful to expand on that, but either way, I referred to two kinds of fire because of a particular duality about thier nature.

If wickedness is like a fire and God is like a fire, obviously those two are not the same thing. They are opposites though both symbolized by fire.

[Seth]

Adding to what Eaglesway said. I think in a semantic argument it's worth considering that there is no actual fire. Saying that there is "one fire" is like saying that the fire is actual. Fire is a symbol. There may be different aspects of fire that may be useful for different metaphors, such as warmth for a positive use or destruction for a negative use. There is one God but potentially limitless ways to use fire as a metaphor, some of which may symbolize God, and others to symbolize wickeness and so on. If someone is saying that fire ONLY represents God at all times in the Bible, there are going to be several scriptural problems to resolve with that.

[rosered]

Adding to what Eaglesway said. I think in a semantic argument it's worth considering that there is no actual fire. Saying that there is "one fire" is like saying that the fire is actual. Fire is a symbol. There may be different aspects of fire that may be useful for different metaphors, such as warmth for a positive use or destruction for a negative use. There is one God but potentially limitless ways to use fire as a metaphor, some of which may symbolize God, and others to symbolize wickeness and so on. If someone is saying that fire ONLY represents God at all times in the Bible, there are going to be several scriptural problems to resolve with that.

GOD IS THE ALMIGHTY , nothing exists without GOD .HE ALONE  is the source of ALL THINGS period ...., literally  or Spiritually speaking  , most cannot see the forest  [Big picture ] for the trees [main focus ]as  the WORD teaches us the  difference ..


FIRE   it is a figure of speech  ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.    the Bible is Full   of    these examples . God has always had them separated from the beginning   those things above and  the things below  . 
 
GODS nature is  A Spiritual TRUTH  and described as GOD IS  LOVE , GOD IS SPIRIT ,  GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE    , no carnal mind can   comprehend spiritual things  , but can only be compared to natural things , not supernatural things  , but gives the idea of  by comparisons .



  Just the it is  written  if God had not left us a seed we would be the  same as Sodom and Gomorrah [city destroyed  by  Fire  of Gods wrath ]

  And wickedness is that fuel for the fire of Gods consuming   up  the evil ,that is no more  .

Now ,'' a teaching ''  as  an example    for us  as we use reasoning  and discernment  by understanding  the truth and meaning ...
Speaking with the tongue/language  of men and speaking with the tongue of angels /messengers  has always been  a difficult  task    and without Love  it is pointless   and does nothing but cause more divisions and confusion by mixing   , double mindedness   has always  tripped   the hearer and caused  the stumbling .

Only God Himself  gives the Spiritual growth   from   the nature of  carnal mindedness [death and focusing on the things below ] and all the madness and chaos of this world below  is set in .
But God gives us proof  ,  In    HIS WORD ,  by  faith  also   praying  in the Spirit and asking Him  for the help  to rise above it all   in our hearts  knowing .

[marie glen]

If wickedness is like a fire and God is like a fire, obviously those two are not the same thing. They are opposites though both symbolized by fire.

....? fight fire with fire? Just kidding! ..don't mind me.. :laughing7:

FIRE   it is a figure of speech  ,a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.

..It's SO weird that the LOF became so fixed in people's minds as a literal place.. literal, material place.. Whereas, saying it's the 2nd death, doesn't that alone suggest its transient and temporary nature?