Is The Grave Not Sheol?

[Lazarus Short]

What do you think, members?  Does this argument have any value?  I came across it while doing research on Lazarus and the Rich Man.

"Can the word hell simply mean the grave?
Some say that there is no hell as a place for eternal torment and suffering. Instead they say that hell is only the grave. However, they base their belief on a few verses where the words Sheol and Hades were translated as grave or pit. The problem with this is that the references that are used deny the context of what is being presented. When you look at the context you find many problems with translating Sheol and Hades as a grave, which is normally the Hebrew word qeber. There are many graves, but only one Sheol or Hades. Man can put someone in the grave (qeber), but never puts anyone in Sheol or Hades (1 Kings 13:29-30). Man can touch a grave (qeber), but does not touch Sheol or Hades (Numbers 19:16). Someone can have their own grave (qeber), but the Bible never speaks of each person having their own Sheol, or Hades (2 Samuel 3:32)."


Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/is-there-a-difference-between-hades-hell-and-sheol-a-bible-study/#ixzz40g4KwjPK

[Seth]

Haven't gotten a chance to read the link, but I think the best way to understand it, and what I have picked up from reading Jewish writing on it, is that it's more like the state of the dead in the grave. I think grave can be substituted since they are very closely related, but to my understanding Sheol is more of an abstract concept of death-sleep in the grave, rather than the literal dirt hole in the ground or tomb. I'd be interested to know others thoughts. It's definitely nothing to do with the Western concept of hell.

[Lazarus Short]

Thanks - that clarifies it nicely!

[jugghead]

For me it is seeing the difference between grave and graveyard

Sheol = graveyard/darkness
Where the person is in the graveyard = the grave/dead

Sheol is specific to the surroundings/the whole
The grave is specific to the person/his part in it

[marie glen]

Haven't gotten a chance to read the link, but I think the best way to understand it, and what I have picked up from reading Jewish writing on it, is that it's more like the state of the dead in the grave. I think grave can be substituted since they are very closely related, but to my understanding Sheol is more of an abstract concept of death-sleep in the grave, rather than the literal dirt hole in the ground or tomb. I'd be interested to know others thoughts. It's definitely nothing to do with the Western concept of hell.

:thumbsup: makes sense and agrees with ecclesiastes "no thought or device/deed in sheol"... and, "all meet in sheol" but not all meet in my grave! :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Here's the way I view it. We died, our body is the grave, the carnal mind is our headstone. HE is resurrecting up out of our graves, in this the 3rd day, and He is taking the us part of the equation (redeemed soul and perfected spirit) along for the "ride". This is the "catching up", and whether it happens in the body or out of the body (literally grave), those that died first shall be raised, then those that are alive (in a body).

Sheol is simply the "place" where the soul of the dead awaits what comes next. My  :2c: Peace

[GodIsLove]

She'ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from the Hebrew God.[1]

I found this on Wikipedia.

Regardless of how the idea of Sheol evolved, this is probably close to the original definition.

[Seth]

She'ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from the Hebrew God.[1]

I found this on Wikipedia.

Regardless of how the idea of Sheol evolved, this is probably close to the original definition.

Yup, because everyone dies whether good or bad. This is why the KJV had such a hard time translating it. They kept calling it "hell" but couldn't reconcile why everyone went there, no matter who.

[eaglesway]

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. (Psalm 139)

Sometimes teachings assume a life of their own. I have often heard these teachings about Sheol(not saying you are teaching God is Love, or anyone else- just responding in context).

Sheol is "unseen".

Christians take a half dozen murky verses about the grave and the dead and build a detailed mythology about what exists beyond the veil and what can or cannot happen with the dead.... but the scriptures rarely support these beliefs across the board and exceptions can be found for every generalization out there.

In Psalm 139 David teaches us that God is with the dead in Sheol. I could find a few more but dont have time at the moment.

To me, this means, "Sorry folks, I'm not lettin you put me in that box, sincerely yours, the Father".

:laugh:

[Shev]

 :iagree:

Nicely put, John. Many of these ideas exist on the murky border that divides revelation from speculation.

[jugghead]

In relation to self ..... Sheol is the ignorance/darkness we have been subjected to unwillingly

In relation to seed ..... we are the dead seed placed in the ground/grave

my  :2c:

[micah7:9]

Huuuuuuum! All good :dsunny: He Is Risen :banana:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And I should have added, the carnal mind is the stone that must be rolled away for Him to resurrect. My  :2c:

[joeteekay]

:cloud9:
Sheol is simply the "place" where the soul of the dead awaits what comes next. My  :2c: Peace

Well stated. Sheol is Hades is the grave where a dead person (soul) awaits a resurrection IMO. :declare:

[micah7:9]

 :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :banana: to all again!

[eaglesway]

:cloud9: And I should have added, the carnal mind is the stone that must be rolled away for Him to resurrect. My  :2c:

Amen!

[trettep]

Hades and Sheol are references to the same place but in different languages.  But more importantly, we need to understand that it is a reference to below the surface of the ground.  You see the ground plays an important role in spiritual understanding.  For example, the devil was cursed to be upon the surface of the ground on its belly.  To be below the ground is to have a curse of death or be OF the Dead.

Disciples were instructed to cast the earthy from their sandals when they left a town that didn't accept them.  This in my spiritual understanding is to denote that the ground was cursed in that town.  This is why elevation is symbolic of what is GOOD towards what is evil. The Heavens are above.  Death is in the grave below. 

[Lorenzo]

What do you think, members?  Does this argument have any value?  I came across it while doing research on Lazarus and the Rich Man.

"Can the word hell simply mean the grave?
Some say that there is no hell as a place for eternal torment and suffering. Instead they say that hell is only the grave. However, they base their belief on a few verses where the words Sheol and Hades were translated as grave or pit. The problem with this is that the references that are used deny the context of what is being presented. When you look at the context you find many problems with translating Sheol and Hades as a grave, which is normally the Hebrew word qeber. There are many graves, but only one Sheol or Hades. Man can put someone in the grave (qeber), but never puts anyone in Sheol or Hades (1 Kings 13:29-30). Man can touch a grave (qeber), but does not touch Sheol or Hades (Numbers 19:16). Someone can have their own grave (qeber), but the Bible never speaks of each person having their own Sheol, or Hades (2 Samuel 3:32)."

These are the moments I fall on my knees and thank God for having given me Italian as main language, ahah, we have no such problems! Sheol is always translated as death or place of the dead.

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/is-there-a-difference-between-hades-hell-and-sheol-a-bible-study/#ixzz40g4KwjPK

[lastpost]

Hades and Sheol are references to the same place but in different languages.

The New Testament teachers could only provide new ideas which were not too far removed from those currently understood by their hearers (it is the same on earth and in the Spirit, I believe, as one does not become omniscient simply by being born again above)...

In  "The Teaching of the Bible Concerning the Unseen World" by: Reverend Arthur Chambers, Associate Of King's College, London, Vicar Of Brockenhurst, Hampshire, England,

...it is demonstrated that when our Lord and the sacred writers used the word "Hades," they meant by it what those whom they addressed understood by it—a conscious existence after death...

It will be necessary and instructive to glance at the views held on this subject by those who lived at the time the New Testament was written.

THE GREEK CONCEPTION OF HADES

The word itself is Grecian, and etymologically signifies, "Something unseen." The idea which the Greeks had was that the spirits or Manes of the dead went, after their burial, into a locality called "Hades." In that abode, the disembodied souls were placed either in the happy fields of Elysium, or in the gloomy realms of Tartarus. In the former, the souls of the virtuous enjoyed themselves, with a lingering regret for the body which had been left behind. In the latter, the wicked were tormented with different degrees of sorrow.

THE JEWISH CONCEPTION OF HADES.

This did not differ materially from the Grecian conception, except that the Jews, unlike the Greeks, held a belief in a final Resurrection, at which the disembodied spirit would again be re-clothed with a body. This state or place they called in the Hebrew "Sheol," and later, when the Greek had become the common tongue, "Hades." Its position, in accordance with Jewish notions and language, was thought to be underground. Josephus* tells us that the soul of Samuel, when he appeared to Saul "came up from Hades." In another place, he tells us that the rationalizing Sadducees**  "took away the rewards and punishments of the Soul in Hades": while the Pharisees held that "the souls of men were punished or rewarded under the earth, according to their practice of virtue or wickedness in life." From the Rabbinical writings we are able to gather that the Jews, like the heathens, looked for a state of conscious existence, immediately after death; that in this state were both the just and the unjust; the latter in a state of misery; the former in blissful enjoyment, to which they applied the following terms: —"Paradise"—"the Garden of Eden"—"Beneath the throne of glory" and "Abraham's bosom."

Such then, is a brief but correct statement of the views concerning the Intermediate-life, of both Jews and Greeks who were contemporaneous with our Lord and the sacred writers. It is impossible that he and they could, again and again, have referred to that Life, as I shall show presently they did, if the thought conveyed by the word had been but the creation of a fancy, and had no foundation in fact.

There is nothing in their utterances on this subject to lead us to suppose that this particular teaching was on any different footing from that of their other teachings, and to say that they were simply adapting their instruction to popular conceptions which were untrue, is nothing other than asserting that they lent themselves to the dissemination of error.

Hence, we are driven to this conclusion—that the belief in the Hades-life, as entertained by Jews and Greeks, is a belief founded on reality, for the reason that it is sanctioned by Christ and the writers of the New Testament.

* (historian born in Jerusalem AD37/38, son of priestly descent)
** did not believe in life after death

[eaglesway]

I believe the New Testament teachers spoke by the Spirit and whatevr limits there are, are only due to translation issues, spiritual deceptions and traditions of men. Hades is a Greek myth. Sheol is the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew thought breathed from the Spirit. Hades(Septuagint), Inferno(latin vulgate)and Hell(Norse mythology) are pagan words applied incorrectly to Sheol, the true reality.  :2c:

[marie glen]

I believe the New Testament teachers spoke by the Spirit and whatevr limits there are, are only due to translation issues, spiritual deceptions and traditions of men. Hades is a Greek myth. Sheol is the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew thought breathed from the Spirit. Hades(Septuagint), Inferno(latin vulgate)and Hell(Norse mythology) are pagan words applied incorrectly to Sheol, the true reality.  :2c:

I agree with that.. I think of it as Israel and the Hebrew is the foundation and works as a key to the scriptures.. like the boxed key for a map..

[eaglesway]

I believe the New Testament teachers spoke by the Spirit and whatevr limits there are, are only due to translation issues, spiritual deceptions and traditions of men. Hades is a Greek myth. Sheol is the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew thought breathed from the Spirit. Hades(Septuagint), Inferno(latin vulgate)and Hell(Norse mythology) are pagan words applied incorrectly to Sheol, the true reality.  :2c:

I agree with that.. I think of it as Israel and the Hebrew is the foundation and works as a key to the scriptures.. like the boxed key for a map..

Yes..
Exactly.

If someone is looking for the "rosetta stone" of scripture, the place to start is hebrew words and ancient definitions. Moses and the prophets are the earth into which Jesus was planted and out of which the first-fruits arise.

There is no such background among the Greeks(septuagint), the Romans(latin vulgate) or the barbarians(Celtic, Norse, Germanic etc-KJV).

IMO, the richest source material for comparative interpretation and translation is the Hebrew language in context with Hebrew thought and cosmology.  :2c:

[lastpost]

While analysing words is a very interesting and worthwhile exercise, I think the points being made here are:

•   The conception, the idea, that the word (whether Hades or Sheol was used) caused to arise in the minds of the common people to whom Jesus was speaking – what notion prevailed in the contemporaneous mind of the Jew at that time.

•   Therefore, if Jesus addressed such people knowing exactly what the word He used meant to those people, then for instance, He delivered an in-depth parable on the journeys of two souls after the death of the physical body which correlated pretty closely with the current common view – then:

...It is impossible that he and they (our Lord and the sacred writers) could, again and again, have referred to that Life, as I shall show presently they did, if the thought conveyed by the word had been but the creation of a fancy, and had no foundation in fact.

There is nothing in their utterances on this subject to lead us to suppose that this particular teaching was on any different footing from that of their other teachings, and to say that they were simply adapting their instruction to popular conceptions which were untrue, is nothing other than asserting that they lent themselves to the dissemination of error.

Hence, we are driven to this conclusion—that the belief in the Hades-life, as entertained by Jews and Greeks, is a belief founded on reality, for the reason that it is sanctioned by Christ and the writers of the New Testament.

But how do we know what was in the minds of the common people at the time of Jesus when these words were used?

The well-known historian Josephus, a Jewish son of a father of priestly descent, born in Jerusalem in the fourth decade A.D., who was extremely proficient in his studies of Jewish law, having conducted academic studies with the Essenes, Sadducees and Pharisees, could not have been in a better position to know the state of belief of the Jews of the time of Jesus of Nazareth regarding what happens when the physical body stops breathing.

Josephus writes of the Pharisees: "While claiming that everything is affected by destiny, they do not deprive human will of power in these things. For it occurred to God to make a combination and to admit to his counsel the will of men---with its virtue and its vice. Their belief is that there is an undying power in souls and that, under the ground, there is an accounting to reward and punish those who were righteous or unrighteous in (this) life" (Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVIII, Chap. 1 para. 3).

Of the Sadducees Josephus writes in Jewish War (2.164-166): "They deny the soul's permanence as well as rewards and punishments in the underworld".

The Pharisees emerged as a significant force in Jewish affairs because of their influence with the common people. The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary states of the time of Jesus: "The Sadducees were the party of those with political power" but "The views of the Pharisees prevailed among the common people". Furthemore, Josephus tells us that: "The Sadducees persuade only the well-to-do and have no popular following. But the Pharisees have the masses as allies" (Antiquities 12.297-298). Again, with specific reference to the Pharisees' doctrine of the belief in conscious existence immediately after physical death in Hades, Josephus writes: "On account of which doctrines they are able greatly to persuade the body of the people" (18.1.3).

Clearly, the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were steeped in the teachings of the Pharisees regarding conscious existence after physical death in a place that Jesus named, using a word which He knew meant, in the minds of His hearers, somewhere the soul went after physical death.

While everybody appears to have a different need of belief system to suit their own experience, temperament and characteristics at that present time (what is acceptable to them), I personally have no difficulty in accepting the above scenario (although very basic) as my whole connection with Jesus Christ, the minute-by-minute remembrance of Him, the overcoming of multiple temptations and the spiritualising because of Him, the realisation of the degraded existence that he has saved me from, and the deep commitment of my heart mind and soul to Him in reverence and love, are only because the Spiritual World, to me, is a life-long reality, and from it I have been informed of Jesus Christ, rather than the manifold theologies that come from the minds of humans as they interpret the Holy Book.

[eaglesway]

Jesus went to great lengths to repudiate the theology of the Pharisees.

"You know neither the scriptures or the power of God."

"By your traditions you make the word of God of no effect."

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him."

[lastpost]

I see that Jesus went to great lengths to point out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, that they worked in opposition to the Spirit of God.

More relevant to eschatological considerations, Jesus made a point of telling the Sadducees that they were all wrong regarding their understanding of an afterlife, in contrast to Jesus not only not repudiating the belief of the common people that there is conscious existence when the body stops breathing, but He, Jesus, fans the flames of that belief and expounds a parable that on physical death the real person finds themselves in another location very much alive with the ability to think – conscious.

I see it the way Jesus has spoken it, based not on wishful thinking but on actual experience too, along with an understanding from the World of Spirit of the most beautiful and wonderful plans for the children of God which surpasses, to my limited understanding, anything I have seen proffered from the mind of men and women in the flesh. But that is just my opinion.

There are different ways to look at scriptures and I have no doubt that scriptures present different meanings to different people depending on their cultural conditioning, the experiences they have undergone whether emotional or supernormal, their desire to seek truth for truth's sake or not, and their need at the time.