What do you think, members? Does this argument have any value? I came across it while doing research on Lazarus and the Rich Man.
"Can the word hell simply mean the grave?
Some say that there is no hell as a place for eternal torment and suffering. Instead they say that hell is only the grave. However, they base their belief on a few verses where the words Sheol and Hades were translated as grave or pit. The problem with this is that the references that are used deny the context of what is being presented. When you look at the context you find many problems with translating Sheol and Hades as a grave, which is normally the Hebrew word qeber. There are many graves, but only one Sheol or Hades. Man can put someone in the grave (qeber), but never puts anyone in Sheol or Hades (1 Kings 13:29-30). Man can touch a grave (qeber), but does not touch Sheol or Hades (Numbers 19:16). Someone can have their own grave (qeber), but the Bible never speaks of each person having their own Sheol, or Hades (2 Samuel 3:32)."
Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/is-there-a-difference-between-hades-hell-and-sheol-a-bible-study/#ixzz40g4KwjPK
Haven't gotten a chance to read the link, but I think the best way to understand it, and what I have picked up from reading Jewish writing on it, is that it's more like the state of the dead in the grave. I think grave can be substituted since they are very closely related, but to my understanding Sheol is more of an abstract concept of death-sleep in the grave, rather than the literal dirt hole in the ground or tomb. I'd be interested to know others thoughts. It's definitely nothing to do with the Western concept of hell.
Thanks - that clarifies it nicely!
For me it is seeing the difference between grave and graveyard
Sheol = graveyard/darkness
Where the person is in the graveyard = the grave/dead
Sheol is specific to the surroundings/the whole
The grave is specific to the person/his part in it
Quote from: Seth on February 20, 2016, 07:01:57 AM
Haven't gotten a chance to read the link, but I think the best way to understand it, and what I have picked up from reading Jewish writing on it, is that it's more like the state of the dead in the grave. I think grave can be substituted since they are very closely related, but to my understanding Sheol is more of an abstract concept of death-sleep in the grave, rather than the literal dirt hole in the ground or tomb. I'd be interested to know others thoughts. It's definitely nothing to do with the Western concept of hell.
:thumbsup: makes sense and agrees with ecclesiastes "no thought or device/deed in sheol"... and, "all meet in sheol" but not all meet in my grave! :laughing7:
:cloud9: Here's the way I view it. We died, our body is the grave, the carnal mind is our headstone. HE is resurrecting up out of our graves, in this the 3rd day, and He is taking the us part of the equation (redeemed soul and perfected spirit) along for the "ride". This is the "catching up", and whether it happens in the body or out of the body (literally grave), those that died first shall be raised, then those that are alive (in a body).
Sheol is simply the "place" where the soul of the dead awaits what comes next. My :2c: Peace
She'ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from the Hebrew God.[1]
I found this on Wikipedia.
Regardless of how the idea of Sheol evolved, this is probably close to the original definition.
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 20, 2016, 05:57:43 PM
She'ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from the Hebrew God.[1]
I found this on Wikipedia.
Regardless of how the idea of Sheol evolved, this is probably close to the original definition.
Yup, because everyone dies whether good or bad. This is why the KJV had such a hard time translating it. They kept calling it "hell" but couldn't reconcile why everyone went there, no matter who.
Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. (Psalm 139)
Sometimes teachings assume a life of their own. I have often heard these teachings about Sheol(not saying you are teaching God is Love, or anyone else- just responding in context).
Sheol is "unseen".
Christians take a half dozen murky verses about the grave and the dead and build a detailed mythology about what exists beyond the veil and what can or cannot happen with the dead.... but the scriptures rarely support these beliefs across the board and exceptions can be found for every generalization out there.
In Psalm 139 David teaches us that God is with the dead in Sheol. I could find a few more but dont have time at the moment.
To me, this means, "Sorry folks, I'm not lettin you put me in that box, sincerely yours, the Father".
:laugh:
:iagree:
Nicely put, John. Many of these ideas exist on the murky border that divides revelation from speculation.
In relation to self ..... Sheol is the ignorance/darkness we have been subjected to unwillingly
In relation to seed ..... we are the dead seed placed in the ground/grave
my :2c:
Huuuuuuum! All good :dsunny: He Is Risen :banana:
:cloud9: And I should have added, the carnal mind is the stone that must be rolled away for Him to resurrect. My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on February 20, 2016, 04:30:09 PM
:cloud9:
Sheol is simply the "place" where the soul of the dead awaits what comes next. My :2c: Peace
Well stated. Sheol is Hades is the grave where a dead person (soul) awaits a resurrection IMO. :declare:
:HeartThrob: :dsunny: :banana: to all again!
Quote from: Cardinal on February 20, 2016, 11:12:03 PM
:cloud9: And I should have added, the carnal mind is the stone that must be rolled away for Him to resurrect. My :2c:
Amen!
Hades and Sheol are references to the same place but in different languages. But more importantly, we need to understand that it is a reference to below the surface of the ground. You see the ground plays an important role in spiritual understanding. For example, the devil was cursed to be upon the surface of the ground on its belly. To be below the ground is to have a curse of death or be OF the Dead.
Disciples were instructed to cast the earthy from their sandals when they left a town that didn't accept them. This in my spiritual understanding is to denote that the ground was cursed in that town. This is why elevation is symbolic of what is GOOD towards what is evil. The Heavens are above. Death is in the grave below.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 20, 2016, 06:07:17 AM
What do you think, members? Does this argument have any value? I came across it while doing research on Lazarus and the Rich Man.
"Can the word hell simply mean the grave?
Some say that there is no hell as a place for eternal torment and suffering. Instead they say that hell is only the grave. However, they base their belief on a few verses where the words Sheol and Hades were translated as grave or pit. The problem with this is that the references that are used deny the context of what is being presented. When you look at the context you find many problems with translating Sheol and Hades as a grave, which is normally the Hebrew word qeber. There are many graves, but only one Sheol or Hades. Man can put someone in the grave (qeber), but never puts anyone in Sheol or Hades (1 Kings 13:29-30). Man can touch a grave (qeber), but does not touch Sheol or Hades (Numbers 19:16). Someone can have their own grave (qeber), but the Bible never speaks of each person having their own Sheol, or Hades (2 Samuel 3:32)."
These are the moments I fall on my knees and thank God for having given me Italian as main language, ahah, we have no such problems! Sheol is always translated as death or place of the dead.
Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/is-there-a-difference-between-hades-hell-and-sheol-a-bible-study/#ixzz40g4KwjPK
Quote
Hades and Sheol are references to the same place but in different languages.
The New Testament teachers could only provide new ideas which were not too far removed from those currently understood by their hearers (it is the same on earth and in the Spirit, I believe, as one does not become omniscient simply by being born again above)...
In "The Teaching of the Bible Concerning the Unseen World" by: Reverend Arthur Chambers, Associate Of King's College, London, Vicar Of Brockenhurst, Hampshire, England,
...it is demonstrated that when our Lord and the sacred writers used the word "Hades," they meant by it what those whom they addressed understood by it—a conscious existence after death...
QuoteIt will be necessary and instructive to glance at the views held on this subject by those who lived at the time the New Testament was written.
THE GREEK CONCEPTION OF HADES
The word itself is Grecian, and etymologically signifies, "Something unseen." The idea which the Greeks had was that the spirits or Manes of the dead went, after their burial, into a locality called "Hades." In that abode, the disembodied souls were placed either in the happy fields of Elysium, or in the gloomy realms of Tartarus. In the former, the souls of the virtuous enjoyed themselves, with a lingering regret for the body which had been left behind. In the latter, the wicked were tormented with different degrees of sorrow.
THE JEWISH CONCEPTION OF HADES.
This did not differ materially from the Grecian conception, except that the Jews, unlike the Greeks, held a belief in a final Resurrection, at which the disembodied spirit would again be re-clothed with a body. This state or place they called in the Hebrew "Sheol," and later, when the Greek had become the common tongue, "Hades." Its position, in accordance with Jewish notions and language, was thought to be underground. Josephus* tells us that the soul of Samuel, when he appeared to Saul "came up from Hades." In another place, he tells us that the rationalizing Sadducees** "took away the rewards and punishments of the Soul in Hades": while the Pharisees held that "the souls of men were punished or rewarded under the earth, according to their practice of virtue or wickedness in life." From the Rabbinical writings we are able to gather that the Jews, like the heathens, looked for a state of conscious existence, immediately after death; that in this state were both the just and the unjust; the latter in a state of misery; the former in blissful enjoyment, to which they applied the following terms: —"Paradise"—"the Garden of Eden"—"Beneath the throne of glory" and "Abraham's bosom."
Such then, is a brief but correct statement of the views concerning the Intermediate-life, of both Jews and Greeks who were contemporaneous with our Lord and the sacred writers. It is impossible that he and they could, again and again, have referred to that Life, as I shall show presently they did, if the thought conveyed by the word had been but the creation of a fancy, and had no foundation in fact.
There is nothing in their utterances on this subject to lead us to suppose that this particular teaching was on any different footing from that of their other teachings, and to say that they were simply adapting their instruction to popular conceptions which were untrue, is nothing other than asserting that they lent themselves to the dissemination of error.
Hence, we are driven to this conclusion—that the belief in the Hades-life, as entertained by Jews and Greeks, is a belief founded on reality, for the reason that it is sanctioned by Christ and the writers of the New Testament.
* (historian born in Jerusalem AD37/38, son of priestly descent)
** did not believe in life after death
I believe the New Testament teachers spoke by the Spirit and whatevr limits there are, are only due to translation issues, spiritual deceptions and traditions of men. Hades is a Greek myth. Sheol is the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew thought breathed from the Spirit. Hades(Septuagint), Inferno(latin vulgate)and Hell(Norse mythology) are pagan words applied incorrectly to Sheol, the true reality. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 27, 2016, 09:46:46 AM
I believe the New Testament teachers spoke by the Spirit and whatevr limits there are, are only due to translation issues, spiritual deceptions and traditions of men. Hades is a Greek myth. Sheol is the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew thought breathed from the Spirit. Hades(Septuagint), Inferno(latin vulgate)and Hell(Norse mythology) are pagan words applied incorrectly to Sheol, the true reality. :2c:
I agree with that.. I think of it as Israel and the Hebrew is the foundation and works as a key to the scriptures.. like the boxed key for a map..
Quote from: marie glen on March 05, 2016, 04:23:35 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 27, 2016, 09:46:46 AM
I believe the New Testament teachers spoke by the Spirit and whatevr limits there are, are only due to translation issues, spiritual deceptions and traditions of men. Hades is a Greek myth. Sheol is the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew thought breathed from the Spirit. Hades(Septuagint), Inferno(latin vulgate)and Hell(Norse mythology) are pagan words applied incorrectly to Sheol, the true reality. :2c:
I agree with that.. I think of it as Israel and the Hebrew is the foundation and works as a key to the scriptures.. like the boxed key for a map..
Yes..
Exactly.
If someone is looking for the "rosetta stone" of scripture, the place to start is hebrew words and ancient definitions. Moses and the prophets are the earth into which Jesus was planted and out of which the first-fruits arise.
There is no such background among the Greeks(septuagint), the Romans(latin vulgate) or the barbarians(Celtic, Norse, Germanic etc-KJV).
IMO, the richest source material for comparative interpretation and translation is the Hebrew language in context with Hebrew thought and cosmology. :2c:
While analysing words is a very interesting and worthwhile exercise, I think the points being made here are:
• The conception, the idea, that the word (whether Hades or Sheol was used) caused to arise in the minds of the common people to whom Jesus was speaking – what notion prevailed in the contemporaneous mind of the Jew at that time.
• Therefore, if Jesus addressed such people knowing exactly what the word He used meant to those people, then for instance, He delivered an in-depth parable on the journeys of two souls after the death of the physical body which correlated pretty closely with the current common view – then:
Quote...It is impossible that he and they (our Lord and the sacred writers) could, again and again, have referred to that Life, as I shall show presently they did, if the thought conveyed by the word had been but the creation of a fancy, and had no foundation in fact.
There is nothing in their utterances on this subject to lead us to suppose that this particular teaching was on any different footing from that of their other teachings, and to say that they were simply adapting their instruction to popular conceptions which were untrue, is nothing other than asserting that they lent themselves to the dissemination of error.
Hence, we are driven to this conclusion—that the belief in the Hades-life, as entertained by Jews and Greeks, is a belief founded on reality, for the reason that it is sanctioned by Christ and the writers of the New Testament.
But how do we know what was in the minds of the common people at the time of Jesus when these words were used?
The well-known historian Josephus, a Jewish son of a father of priestly descent, born in Jerusalem in the fourth decade A.D., who was extremely proficient in his studies of Jewish law, having conducted academic studies with the Essenes, Sadducees and Pharisees, could not have been in a better position to know the state of belief of the Jews of the time of Jesus of Nazareth regarding what happens when the physical body stops breathing.
Josephus writes of the Pharisees: "While claiming that everything is affected by destiny, they do not deprive human will of power in these things. For it occurred to God to make a combination and to admit to his counsel the will of men---with its virtue and its vice. Their belief is that there is an undying power in souls and that, under the ground, there is an accounting to reward and punish those who were righteous or unrighteous in (this) life" (Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVIII, Chap. 1 para. 3).
Of the Sadducees Josephus writes in Jewish War (2.164-166): "They deny the soul's permanence as well as rewards and punishments in the underworld".
The Pharisees emerged as a significant force in Jewish affairs because of their influence with the common people. The
Eerdmans Bible Dictionary states of the time of Jesus: "The Sadducees were the party of those with political power" but "
The views of the Pharisees prevailed among the common people". Furthemore, Josephus tells us that: "The Sadducees persuade only the well-to-do and have no popular following. But
the Pharisees have the masses as allies" (Antiquities 12.297-298). Again, with specific reference to the Pharisees' doctrine of the belief in conscious existence immediately after physical death in Hades, Josephus writes: "On account of which doctrines they are able
greatly to persuade the body of the people" (18.1.3).
Clearly,
the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were steeped in the teachings of the Pharisees regarding conscious existence after physical death in a place that Jesus named, using a word which He knew meant, in the minds of His hearers, somewhere the soul went after physical death.
While everybody appears to have a different need of belief system to suit their own experience, temperament and characteristics at that present time (what is acceptable to them), I personally have no difficulty in accepting the above scenario (although very basic) as my whole connection with Jesus Christ, the minute-by-minute remembrance of Him, the overcoming of multiple temptations and the spiritualising because of Him, the realisation of the degraded existence that he has saved me from, and the deep commitment of my heart mind and soul to Him in reverence and love, are only because the Spiritual World, to me, is a life-long reality, and from it I have been informed of Jesus Christ, rather than the manifold theologies that come from the minds of humans as they interpret the Holy Book.
Jesus went to great lengths to repudiate the theology of the Pharisees.
"You know neither the scriptures or the power of God."
"By your traditions you make the word of God of no effect."
"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him."
I see that Jesus went to great lengths to point out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, that they worked in opposition to the Spirit of God.
More relevant to eschatological considerations, Jesus made a point of telling the Sadducees that they were all wrong regarding their understanding of an afterlife, in contrast to Jesus not only not repudiating the belief of the common people that there is conscious existence when the body stops breathing, but He, Jesus, fans the flames of that belief and expounds a parable that on physical death the real person finds themselves in another location very much alive with the ability to think – conscious.
I see it the way Jesus has spoken it, based not on wishful thinking but on actual experience too, along with an understanding from the World of Spirit of the most beautiful and wonderful plans for the children of God which surpasses, to my limited understanding, anything I have seen proffered from the mind of men and women in the flesh. But that is just my opinion.
There are different ways to look at scriptures and I have no doubt that scriptures present different meanings to different people depending on their cultural conditioning, the experiences they have undergone whether emotional or supernormal, their desire to seek truth for truth's sake or not, and their need at the time.
I think I'll write a rebuttal for this.
true death/2nd death Lof..is only expierenced by the demons..it is the place prepared for them....man expierences only the death
of his flesh..and his spirit is redeemed because of Jesus work..and returns unto the Father[barn/wheat]
demons are made of the dust of heaven...and their flesh[which is all they are] shall be totally consumed...along with the evil contrast
spirit inside it. not so for man...man's spirit is redeemed and garmented in immortality[the best robe] Praise God for what He has done!
for the work of His hands! we are fearfully and wonderfully made!
it is harvest time..and He shall have the angels to gather and bind the tares...and you shall find out why your belly is bitter..and
why every man has his hands on his stomach. you will see the wicked one that He has delivered you from.
our flesh[dead in sin] is our grave..even sheol the sides of the pit..but we are not alone in them..for there are 'graven images"
or tares[sin/evil spirits] in here with us....He will take back the hedge[He that now restrains] and reveal these sons of perdition
unto you. do not be dismayed..and take heart..for even if your bed is made in sheol..HE IS WITH YOU!
Abrahams great horror that fell upon him..the smoking furnace.[.and the locust armies] and a torch will pass between the pieces
....and the two wittnesses shall lay dead as in the street of the great city called Sodom and Egypt........[3 days of darkness plague]...
these locust armies will come upon a peaceful/secure unsuspecting people..a land recovered from warfare..dwelling without wall
or hedge[restrainer taken out of the way]
the prince of this world WILL let HIS PEOPLE GO!!!!!! and all the animals also...............Please,please read and remember this!!!
Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2016, 08:21:13 PM
true death/2nd death Lof..is only expierenced by the demons..it is the place prepared for them....man expierences only the death
of his flesh..and his spirit is redeemed because of Jesus work..and returns unto the Father[barn/wheat]
demons are made of the dust of heaven...and their flesh[which is all they are] shall be totally consumed...along with the evil contrast
spirit inside it. not so for man...man's spirit is redeemed and garmented in immortality[the best robe] Praise God for what He has done!
for the work of His hands! we are fearfully and wonderfully made!
it is harvest time..and He shall have the angels to gather and bind the tares...and you shall find out why your belly is bitter..and
why every man has his hands on his stomach. you will see the wicked one that He has delivered you from.
our flesh[dead in sin] is our grave..even sheol the sides of the pit..but we are not alone in them..for there are 'graven images"
or tares[sin/evil spirits] in here with us....He will take back the hedge[He that now restrains] and reveal these sons of perdition
unto you. do not be dismayed..and take heart..for even if your bed is made in sheol..HE IS WITH YOU!
Altho the fire was prepared for the devil and His angels, Jesus clearly says that some people will go into it in matthew 25
also in rev 14;10, any who receive the mark of the beast or the number of His name(whatever that represents, doesnt matter) will be corrected with fire and brimstone(pyr kai theio) before the holy messengers and before the Lamb.
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20;15
The passage in Rev 20 refers to the same thing as the passage in Romans 2...
their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, even as there is now by those who resist Him, until they have "paid the last penny" and yielded to Him.
Wasnt the prodigal son thrown, in a sense, into the "lake of fire"? we always focus on His return- but it was in the lake of fire that he came to His senses.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2016, 07:36:47 PM
Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2016, 08:21:13 PM
true death/2nd death Lof..is only expierenced by the demons..it is the place prepared for them....man expierences only the death
of his flesh..and his spirit is redeemed because of Jesus work..and returns unto the Father[barn/wheat]
demons are made of the dust of heaven...and their flesh[which is all they are] shall be totally consumed...along with the evil contrast
spirit inside it. not so for man...man's spirit is redeemed and garmented in immortality[the best robe] Praise God for what He has done!
for the work of His hands! we are fearfully and wonderfully made!
it is harvest time..and He shall have the angels to gather and bind the tares...and you shall find out why your belly is bitter..and
why every man has his hands on his stomach. you will see the wicked one that He has delivered you from.
our flesh[dead in sin] is our grave..even sheol the sides of the pit..but we are not alone in them..for there are 'graven images"
or tares[sin/evil spirits] in here with us....He will take back the hedge[He that now restrains] and reveal these sons of perdition
unto you. do not be dismayed..and take heart..for even if your bed is made in sheol..HE IS WITH YOU!
Altho the fire was prepared for the devil and His angels, Jesus clearly says that some people will go into it in matthew 25
also in rev 14;10, any who receive the mark of the beast or the number of His name(whatever that represents, doesnt matter) will be corrected with fire and brimstone(pyr kai theio) before the holy messengers and before the Lamb.
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20;15
The passage in Rev 20 refers to the same thing as the passage in Romans 2...
their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, even as there is now by those who resist Him, until they have "paid the last penny" and yielded to Him.
Wasnt the prodigal son thrown, in a sense, into the "lake of fire"? we always focus on His return- but it was in the lake of fire that he came to His senses.
"will be corrected with fire and brimstone(pyr kai theio) before the holy messengers and before the Lamb." ...I get the impression this is at His return...? the separation of the goats and sheep.. sheep gathered into His barn and others gathered into bundles to be burned, which i think of as at armageddon..
Revelation 14:9-11 - (YLT)
9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
the lof at the end of chapter 20, being one thousand+ years later..? rev 20:7a;12-14;15 - "7 Now when the thousand years have expired... 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
Seems to me- If the wheat and the tares was armegeddon, it would be as if all the tares from all the generations since Jesus would have got a free pass :o)
Anyone who was not on that battlefield(har mediddo) would not be included.
I think that parable has a much broader application. I don't think the battlefield of Armegeddon is the place where the tares can be separated out from amongst the wheat without trampling and damaging them- indeed I think the opposite is true. War kills, burns and maims indiscriminately.
Its a parable, so I understand that it can be interpreted in different ways, but i think Jesus explained it, and the explanation is (to me) broader than just the one conflagration at the end of this age- within the age. To me it refers to the end of the age - in the age that all are ushered into by death, which is the harvest.
"Put in your sickle for the vines are ripe for harvest"
The harvest has always been reprsentative of the death of multitudes or the general mass of humankind. From this we get the Grim Reaper, and other images related to the inevitable fate of all mankind.
Also Jesus as the first-fruits from among the dead and us as "begotten by the Word of God as a kind of first-fruits of his creatures".
"Multitudes multitudes in the valley of decision."
To me this mortal life is the "valley of decision" and the "valley of the shadow of death".
"It is given to men once to die and then comes the judgement"- the Tribunal is before the eyes of the One who sees all, dividing asunder soul and spirit.
"Hide us from the face of the Lamb and the One on the throne"
men will call for the "rocks to fall on them and hide them, when the "heavens roll back like a scroll"
To me these are all metaphors for a universal epiphany that will occur outside the veil of time. :2c:
Quote from: marie glen on March 08, 2016, 11:11:32 PM
the lof at the end of chapter 20, being one thousand+ years later..? rev 20:7a;12-14;15 - "7 Now when the thousand years have expired... 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
There are only a few words there describing the process of the Great White Throne and its aftermath. I think it is primarily symbolic of an actual spiritual transition of all things- such as 2 Peter 3
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Peters words there could easily describe the Lake of Fire also.
1 Corinthians 15 describes it also(in terms of the process of it), as does Romans 2 and Daniel 7
9"I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10"A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
11"Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12"As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
13"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
Daniel and other prophets often employ a "back and forth" method of expression, flashing from images of the age to come and the second advent, then back to images that relate to the end of this age and events leading up to it.
The thousand years (I believe) will include judgments also because as Daniel prophecies ..." the thrones were set and the ancient of days took his seat"
But when these aionian periods are prophesied it is not in such a detailed way that we can draw absolute conclusions(imo)
They are seen through a glass darkly.