Why do people like Hitler deserve to be saved?

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

I believe the healing of the blind by Jesus was a metaphor for what will happen to us all when we get glorified minds and bodies, with the FULL indwelling of the Spirit:

WOW

Amen to that Laz, although I believe Jesus literally healed the blind, I agree that it is a perfect example of how it's gonna be when we get our glorified minds and bodies. In our earthly lives, we are blind even though we think we are not. That is why Lord Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"

[Lorenzo]

Nobody deserves it. That's why we sing "Amazing Grace".

[Shev]

To me, Hitler has had the blood of Jesus Christ shed on his behalf. This makes Hitler precious, bought at the highest price possible. His evil works do not weigh in the balance against the obedience of the spotless lamb.

One of the many problems with ET is it puts the focus of salvation on the creature, such as us getting what we deserve in judgment. UR puts the focus on Jesus Christ, and Him getting what He deserves in glory!

[Lazarus Short]

To me, Hitler has had the blood of Jesus Christ shed on his behalf. This makes Hitler precious, bought at the highest price possible. His evil works do not weigh in the balance against the obedience of the spotless lamb.

One of the many problems with ET is it puts the focus of salvation on the creature, such as us getting what we deserve in judgment. UR puts the focus on Jesus Christ, and Him getting what He deserves in glory!

Why do people even scapegoat Adolph Hitler, when there were gobs of evil people involved in that era?  He is just the symbol of an era, of a movement, but one in a cast of millions.  A dispassionate view of history produces a very different picture than we see in a History 101 worldview.  The trouble of thinking of and seeing people like Hitler as evil is that we lift ourselves up by doing so, and become like that Pharisee in the parable who thanked God for not making him like that evil Publican over there, the one who was so aware of his sin that he dared not lift his eyes heavenward.  The moral distance between the most evil man in history, whoever he is, and the best man who ever lived is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE smaller than the moral distance between both of them and God.

[Shev]

I agree Lazarus. There people are on the streets just as evil as Hitler, but with less opportunity. And as you say, the issue is not man's evil, but God's goodness and Christ's obedience!

[micah7:9]

 :iagree: with both Shev and Laz. Coming to understand HIS love is a learning and maturing process that many have not even begun to see. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[joeteekay]

  :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

This is a personal proverb I believe God gave to me, after I had worked awhile with a man who was becoming cult leader, and I was praying "Lord, how did I get fooled by this man?"

"The seducer and the seducee are made of the same material."

[marie glen]

Amen to the posts above!

...and none of us deserve to be saved.. to me, God iS life itself and also perfection, thus imperfect is the opposite of life, and w/o God's saving mercy, grace, goodness and kindness, we all would ("likewise") perish..

I also believe predator-ness is the natural opposite of God (who is love).. For one's heart and mind to be 'apart' from God, I believe is the abyss. The bottomless pit of potential in every wayward rational creature. Or that is the bottomless pit of potential which is inherent in wandering from or being apart from he who is life itself and the source of all goodness..

However, people who have suffered at the hands of great evil, I for one can understand why they would not like to hear that there would be no 'punishment' of the perpetrators of the great evil (whether large scale/national, or personal). Not only the despots throughout history, and there's been many, but someone who's child was stolen and life stolen and or great suffering or terror done to their precious child, may not want to think the evildoer would have an easy way.. We may know their way will not be easy.. The punishment will come when their acts are brought to light in the bright glory of God's pure and holy Presence, which may indeed involve some fear, when they rise 'still in their sins"..

It's easy to say they should forgive the evil someone dealt them, and they will.. But when I see or hear of great evils, I too comfort myself with the idea of judgment day! Ya-ay, and hooray for judgment day! Those who thought it good to bulldoze bodies of people, precious people into mass graves.. or to maim and torture and terrorize.. I look forward to God's justice. Not believing that he punishes, but the evil in them will punish them.. Even as the every day sinner (we) feel remorse for flaws and shortcomings and felt remorse for the sins committed in our previous ignorance. But, I believe on a much larger scale. Which I do believe such ones deserve. For each person still does have some choice, and a series of choices which led them to the great acts of evil.

I believe for such there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in the dark and terrifying outer darkness.. An outer darkness created by their very selves. (A dark-during/age-during / duration, time, the great gulf in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.)

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

[Jock]

Many people think that Hitler, Stalin, Polpot Maozedung and others "deserve" hell as god is just itching to get his hands on them. God is good, Christ is good, I am evil. Anybody I hear as "being good" I look on as being suspect. some good answers here.

shalom

:Peace2:

Jock

[Dandelion]

...22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22 - 23

I think this explains it all.

What a glorious story it is!

:cloud9:

D.

[Ross]

There is no variation in levels of sin- all have sinned.
Christ says you think about it you are as guilty as do it.
The price paid is in full for all.

[eaglesway]

 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

I am not sure I agree with you on that Ross.  :Peace2:

[darryl]

This is an argument that so many people make. Why do tyrants like Hitler and murderers deserve to be saved?

its not a question of what Hitler deserves..it's a question of God's unconditional love for His creation..God saves all, including Hitler cos He loves beyond measure..that's God's essence...LOVE. :dsunny:

[Aerex]

I think another answer is that it is not Hitler's fault or any tyrannical figure in history. Anyone could have come to the conclusions that Hitler had made in his life time. All Hitler had was his experiences and his perspectives on life none of which he had control over. The burden and responsibility falls on God who has actual control. If God were to send anyone to a fate like hell then he would be the tyrant not someone like Hitler.

[eaglesway]

I do not think God's mercy in anyway eliminates His justice. Jesus spoke of some being beaten with few stripes, some with many.

Only God knows each persons heart, and He is ultimately merciful to all, but only after all have repented and come clean about their sins and humbled themselves before Him.

And according to Jesus Himself it will not be an easy reckoning for many.

Jesus called Judas a devil and said of him that he would have been better off if He were never born.

He said, Better to enter heaven maimed than to enter Gehenna whole.

Hitler was a devil of devils. I think is reckoning will be very difficult.

No one deserves to be saved. Every one who is saved, is saved when they realize that very thing- and come clean, and receive mercy.

[Dandelion]

1 Samuel 16:7
   7   But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for 1God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, abut the Lord looks at the heart."

God sees our hearts. He knows what is easy or difficult for us; He know what our circumstances truly are, and how we perceive them; He knows what resources we have to overcome them. He is our father; our Creator. This journey of ours is to bring us to our perfect selves. We do not start out perfect. It is only through the potter's hands does His clay take form and become a masterpiece. I guess, that is the whole point of our journey. We bring glory to God, through His transformation of us. He loves us into perfection, eventually. All of us. The veil of this fallen world, one day, will be gone and who we were truly meant to be, in our father's beauty, we will become. His glory will show through, even the darkest corners, for He is the ultimate Light of the World.

Who knows....Hitler might be one of His most glorious accomplishments of transformation.

...4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:4-5

Not even Hitler's darkness can overcome His glorious Light!

D. 

[tm55]

Here's a Scholar's Corner article ... http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html ... that echos what Eaglesway just said (in its Appendix A) ...

Many have e-mailed to warn me of the dangers of believing and promoting [Christian] universalism.  Two closely related dangers have been stressed.  Some focus on how important Christians will think it is to spread the gospel if they accept universalism, and warn that belief in universalism would undercut evangelism.  Others focus on the potential detrimental effect of promoting universalism on potential Christians themselves, supposing many will think something along the lines of, "Well, I'll be OK anyway, so why bother to accept Christ?"

I do not think that belief in universalism should have the above effects.  Here it is important to note that universalism -- at least the position I've been referring to by the term -- does not imply that it is unimportant whether one accepts Christ in this life, or sooner rather than later.  All that universalism per se rules out here is the "infinitely big stick": that one will be eternally barred from heaven (and perhaps consigned to hell) if one fails to accept Christ in this life.  As I've stressed, universalism itself does not rule out that there will be punishment for some after death.  Indeed, it does not rule out that there will be a lot of punishment for some.  So it's not only consistent with the existence of sticks, but with very big -- indeed, immensely huge -- sticks, though of course universalists will disagree amongst themselves about the nature and size of whatever sticks there are.  Universalism does rule out the infinitely big stick.  But it would indeed be very sad if Christians believed that there is strong reason or motivation for accepting Christ in this life only if one faces an infinitely big stick if one fails to do so.  Universalism also guarantees that all humans will eventually attain the tremendous carrot.  But does the fact that things will eventually be OK for someone remove the motivation -- for herself and for others -- to improve her lot in the meantime?   Those who believe they are going to heaven, whether they're universalists or not, believe everything will eventually be OK for them, but few lose all interest in their well-being in the meantime.  And those who believe that certain other people (say, loved ones) are destined for heaven don't lose interest in promoting their well-being in the meantime.  Why, then, should accepting that everyone will eventually be OK sap all motivation for promoting their well-being in the meantime -- especially since it's at least consistent with universalism that that "meantime" can be a very long time?

It's also worth pointing out that though the universalist believes all will attain heaven, it's consistent with universalism that what one's heavenly existence is like may depend on one's earthly life.  Thus the universalist may hold (though perhaps some will not) that how one lives one's earthly life -- perhaps crucially including whether one accepts Christ in this life -- will have eternal significance, even if it doesn't determine whether one (eventually at least) attains heaven.

[eaglesway]

Another way to look at it is that no one "attain's heaven". Heaven is a state of being in union with God through Jesus Christ. "Every knee shall bow whether in heaven, or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

"As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in his own order"

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".

"No man comes to the Son except the Father draw him."

Union with God is given by grace. We who are the first to believe, chosen and elect, will be used to usher in all creation, as Christ is lifted up in and through us, until God is all in all.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2

17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2:9

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. Rom 8

[Cristina100]

What about Jeffrey Dahmer, who is a serial killer? Does he deserve to go to heaven?

[sheila]

none of us deserve Grace..you break one law..your guilty of them all.  surely Jeffery Dahmer bore the image of the corrupt one...as all men have

  and he too,shall bear the image of the incorrupt one..when he is raised up in incorruption/made into a new creature.

   just whose image has man bore of the corrupt one?

   have you ever read Jeffrey Dahmer's testimony of how he become so overcome?   be watchful..satan goes about like a devouring

  lion seeking who he may devour.surely Jeffrey dahmer's flesh was a tasty morsel swallowed up of the serpent dust eater.......


    and I saw a wonder in heaven.a woman great with childready to birth..and a great red dragon stood ready to devour the man/child

as soon as he was born..but the man/child was snatched up to heaven.   For I am convinced that nothing can seperate us from

the LOVE OF GOD shown through Christ Jesus.

[rosered]

MATTHEW 5

Have we even began to fully  understand what it is to love our enemies yet ? 
and  praying for them  even ?
Are we sitting at Jesus feet and listening  to what the Holy Spirit is saying  to us,  in this  wicked and adulterous generation ?


The Sermon on the Mount; The Beatitudes  !! :HeartThrob:

5 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down,


His disciples came to Him. 2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.



Disciples and the World
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again?


It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

14 "You are the light of the world.

A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets;

I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.


18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away,

not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. !!!!!!!!!!!!


19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;


but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Personal Relationships
21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'


22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;

and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court;


and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery gehenna/lake .

23 Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,


24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.


25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way,

so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.

26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery';


28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you;

for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.


30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you;


for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.



31 "It was said, 'Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce';

32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.'


34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,

35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.


36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.


37 But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.'


39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.


40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.


41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.


42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'


44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,


45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;


for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.



46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?


Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others?


Do not even the Gentiles do the same?


48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


I know I am a  far cry from being perfected in LOVE  yet !!  it is just the truth ....


   MAY THE TRUE AND LIVING  God have mercy on us all .......  the valley of hinnom/ Gehenna     is the same judgment we judged with we also will be judged with  , being the same sacrifices  as casting your own  selves & children into the fire !!!    AS serving the wrong god,  the gods of our own bellies   and being found with as wicked as the ones we have  judged are   !  :sigh:   


.... http://biblehub.com/topical/h/hinnom.htm

[jugghead]

46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

For me ..... this says it all

Excellent post Rose

[Jock]

The Pharisee and the publican went out to pray. The publican could not even look up to heaven, he was so ashamed. the Pharisee said in his heart " thank God I'm not like THAT MAN" it was the publican who was justified that day. think about that, who had the right heart before God?

:Peace2:

Jock

[marie glen]

Amen! absolutely! And boy oh boy, thank goodness! :gsmile:

...the title "why does Hitler deserve to be saved?" - he doesn't (which has been posted, amen!)

Lately I've been thinking that within the im-perfect heart (angel or man) is basically a bottomless pit of potential.. as in "how low can we go?"

We like to think we could never sink to certain levels, but I think it all depends upon the will (and intervention) of our Father.. that some are allowed to sink way down in those levels.. where, without intervention, sooner or later, I believe all would descend (if they lived long enough that is).

That's kind of hard for us to accept, that without Jesus/salvation we could sink that low.. But it is in the nature for all things to move and progress.. and without God's saving hand there's only one direction, ultimately, to go.

Why would our heavenly Father allow some to sink so low? Perhaps to fully illustrate and prove how life simply cannot ever be lived without Him. (Who, imo, iS life, and also of course the only source of goodness, and light.) If He is not the ruling force of life, love being that force, then there would always be oppression and abuses.. "I will" do and have what I want.. is bound to collide with others, who may get in the way or compete.. Unfortunately some seem to want to be head of everything.. Even Hitler, more than likely, thought what he was doing was a good thing! As perhaps did Stalin,Pol Pot, Mao, etc, etc.. though some seem to be evil just for the 'fun' of it? (I remember Mao posters from the 70's.. he was thought to be a sort of hero.. a revolutionary, which he was, but woe..)

So I guess that's why I believe Hitler and the like 'deserve' to be saved as much as anyone else! (Which actually is, of course, not at all! :laughing7: ) And, also is another reason I could never believe in 'hell' or annihilation. "God so loved.. He gave His only begotten, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish.." Perish, I believe, being the end result for all if not for our heavenly Father's intervention.. But of course, if we were unable to make any sort of choices, we would never have been in this boat. Another reason to not believe in 'hell' or annihilation, since the Father Himself fashioned us as He did, able to think and reason.. and choose.. (Highly limited of course. Thank Goodness! Or just how much havoc could we wreak?)