Grand Plan of God

[lastpost]

I do appreciate GOD as the Creator - yet I adore and worship GOD because He is LOVE rather than because He is the Creator.

I am of the opinion that GOD is LOVE and therefore His primary attribute is also LOVE which emanates from LOVE - as only LOVE can do.

It is because GOD is LOVE and His primary attribute is LOVE, that He creates life - it is a consequence of LOVE, which must give of Itself.

GOD is the Creator because GOD is LOVE.

GOD is the Creator because of His LOVE which comes from Himself who is LOVE.

[micah7:9]

We, those of us who are attempting to understand Love and our Savior, are on what I see  as a thresh hold of proving what we believe. Our Lord and Savior IS LOVE and there are happenings in our now, which leave me questioning my vulnerably. I pray and hope for wisdom, the world I live in is changing in degrees I never thought, and I believe that the only strap of rescue, for me, is to discern my own depths in where I rest. :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

We, those of us who are attempting to understand Love and our Savior, are on what I see  as a thresh hold of proving what we believe. Our Lord and Savior IS LOVE and there are happenings in our now, which leave me questioning my vulnerably. I pray and hope for wisdom, the world I live in is changing in degrees I never thought, and I believe that the only strap of rescue, for me, is to discern my own depths in where I rest. :HeartThrob:

:iagree:

[joeteekay]

PART 3

A little understood aspect of how God works with His physical creation are the scriptures dealing with the eons. With out a doubt, it is vitally important  to understand the wonderful truth of the saving work of Jesus. That is of primary importance. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.

But, even of the saints, few have any clear idea of the object of all creation and revelation.  It seems difficult for us to associate Christ with anything more than His sacrifice and redemption. He died for the sins of the world. The great truth that He is the Firstborn of creation seems to have vanished from the consciousness of Christendom ( from Knoch).

And so there is so much more precious truth about God's plan when we go to the original text of scripture and not rely on the tainted versions of our popular modern Bibles. The words eon, eons and eonian are not found in the majority of the bibles, including the popular King James version,even though\ they are the correct translations from the Original Greek text. They are legitimate English words. Diligent students of scripture recognize that the words "eternity", "everlasting, "for ever and ever" are not in the Original text. Those words are a perversion of the original sacred writings. That is a travesty. Consequently a great deal of Gods grand, majestic and perfect plan of salvation and mans ultimate destiny has been totally misunderstood by Christians. Some of what is written here is taken from works of A. E. Knoch and L. A. Bynoe.

So it is vital to know about eonian times in God's plan for humanity.  What are "eonian times"?  What was God doing before the period known as eonian times. This was partially discussed in Parts 1 and 2. God has always existed. He is the one who created the angelic host and the physical universe.He created the eons.

The purpose of the eons is for the wonderful plan of God to bring all humanity into His being defined ultimately as all in all through Jesus the Christ. 

(//)


In this part look at those few scriptures that mention "before eonian times" and "before the eons". Very little is mentioned in scripture about pre-eonian times. That is because God"s dealing with mankind is focused on eonian times, the period which includes the five eons. Later we examine the different parts which constitute "eonian times" and detail each of the five divisions which constitute eonian times.

Pre eonian times

There are only 4 scriptures which mention before the the eons or before eonian times.We have very scant information concerning the works of the Creator God prior to eonian times

First verse of four

(KJV) 1Co 2:6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world (the eons) unto our glory:

(CLV)  I Cor 2:7 but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory,

Gods plan of salvation was ordained by Him before the eons and has been concealed from the world, but revealed by Him to the saints.

Second verse of four

(KJV) Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever (before the entire eon, now, as well as for all the eons).. Amen.


(CLV)  Jud 1:25  to the only  God, our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might and authority before the entire eon, now, as well as for all the eons. Amen!"


This verse in Jude is yet another example of the error of the revisionists in  ignoring the original text. They had their preconceived ideas and reliance on the Latin Vulgate. Preconceived ideas about hell and eternal punishment.

Third verse of four

(KJV)  2 Tim 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (times eonian)

(CLV) 2 Tim 1:9  Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,

Gods eonian purpose for the lives of His called out ones was determined through grace and given to us in Christ before times eonian. Before the world began, as per most corrupt translations makes no sense. Eph_1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Fourth verse of four

(KJV) Titus 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (times eonian)

(CLV)  Titus 1:2  In expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,

Similar comment as that above. God, in His Holy Word, never uses the term eternal life or eternal anything. When one sees what the eons are, then life eonian is scripturally correct. It is not incorrect to say to say that the Elect will inherit eternal life but it is not  scripturally accurate , since eternal is not true to the inspired scriptures. Those who have eonian life will become spirit beings and become immortal.

Later we will look at eonian times in detail.

[micah7:9]

Gen. 1:1 In the BEGINNING (H7225 the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.)

Pro 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

1Co 15:20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing."

Col 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,

Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."

Jesus Christ is the "in the beginning" He is the Firstfruit He is the Principal thing He is Wisdom.

Pro 8:23 From the eon was I inaugurated, From the beginning, preceeding the earth;"

Jesus Christ is the "in the beginning" He is the Firstfruit He is the Principal thing He is Wisdom. :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

Yea Joeteekay,

Thats exactly what I believe.

The bubble is the veil. Death, time and the grave are all veils. There are bubbles within bubbles. A veil is torn, and a bubble pops when we get connected to the Vine(on one level). Another pop at the resurrection. Another pop at the consummation at the end of the ages when death and the grave are destroyed. When God is all in all, every veil has been torn, every bubble has popped :o)

So by this analogy the bubble/veil of time will "pop" and time will be no more? That's what bro. Eby believes that time will end, I did as well for a while, but it is in "time" that things happen and should the bubble/veil "pop" and time is no more then everything just stops-freezes, nothing happens. I don't accept that sorry.

Psa 102:27 Yet You remain the same, And Your years shall not come to end." :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

In the theory(its just a theory) nothing stops, or freezes. it is just that the finite supply of everything.....;life, energy, time  becomes infinite, to know how much has passed or how much is left is no longer relative. There is no need to measure the infinite, and the state of being so transcends the current one that we cannot conceive it- hence "we know not what we shall be but we shall belike Him, for we shall see Hm as He is". Death, the terminal point of life will be no more.

But like all things beyond the veil(olam), it is seen through a glass darkly, and it is just what I believe about it. I dont teach it as doctrine.

[Ross]

One of the points Peter made about time was when he said 1000 years are a but a day to the Lord.
I.M.O time will continue, just not 24/7 which we currently run on.
If time did not continue everything would stand still. Whether it is milliseconds, hours, year who knows?
One of the best examples of this concept was the "Men in Black" movie. At the end of the movie there were heaps of planets and peoples depicted as all running to different time schedules. A year for some was an hour to others. All relative really.
We are, after all, in the first stage of the master plan for the ages to come.

[marie glen]

I do appreciate GOD as the Creator - yet I adore and worship GOD because He is LOVE rather than because He is the Creator.

I am of the opinion that GOD is LOVE and therefore His primary attribute is also LOVE which emanates from LOVE - as only LOVE can do.

It is because GOD is LOVE and His primary attribute is LOVE, that He creates life - it is a consequence of LOVE, which must give of Itself.

GOD is the Creator because GOD is LOVE.

GOD is the Creator because of His LOVE which comes from Himself who is LOVE.

Awesome!!  :smile: I love that! Especially "It is because GOD is LOVE and His primary attribute is LOVE, that He creates life - it is a consequence of LOVE, which must give of Itself."

I never really thought of that.. but I can see it surely is true!  :cloud9: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Yea Joeteekay,

Thats exactly what I believe.

The bubble is the veil. Death, time and the grave are all veils. There are bubbles within bubbles. A veil is torn, and a bubble pops when we get connected to the Vine(on one level). Another pop at the resurrection. Another pop at the consummation at the end of the ages when death and the grave are destroyed. When God is all in all, every veil has been torn, every bubble has popped :o)

So by this analogy the bubble/veil of time will "pop" and time will be no more? That's what bro. Eby believes that time will end, I did as well for a while, but it is in "time" that things happen and should the bubble/veil "pop" and time is no more then everything just stops-freezes, nothing happens. I don't accept that sorry.

Psa 102:27 Yet You remain the same, And Your years shall not come to end." :dsunny:

I'm unsure of that also.. and I am unsure of the idea - even though we will have a spiritual body, and bear the image of the heavenly - that we will be only spirit creatures/beings. I'm not comfortable, or that is, it doesn't feel right to me in some way.. I think of the 'end' result (and blueprint) as something more than pure spirit.. Or no space and time.. I think Yahweh is creating something awesome.. I believe the heavens and the earth will go beyond this 'time' / these eons/ages. John saw "a new heavens and a new earth".. Of finer substance, imo, but still having substance. Why not? Maybe the idea folks talk about isn't mere floating around forever in nothingness, but that's how it seems and I can't see as much greatness in that.. :dontknow: also, "the lion will eat straw like the ox" cannot, I believe, occur until after all things have been subdued and the last enemy defeated (i.e., not during the 1000 year millennium of Jesus, after His return, which means not until after God has made all things new - and I can't think of it as mere metaphor.)
    :Peace2: :smile:

We are, after all, in the first stage of the master plan for the ages to come.

    :thumbsup: :banana:

But like all things beyond the veil(olam), it is seen through a glass darkly, and it is just what I believe about it. I dont teach it as doctrine.

..that's a great attitude, eaglesway.. There's quite a few smileys/emoticons i've never used here, like :swordfight: or :hammerhead: or even :soap: It's very refreshing! Bless-ed are the peacemakers!  :gsmile:

[Ross]

In my Father's house there are many mansions. I go to prepare a place for you.

That is pretty specific to me of something going on up there for us.

[marie glen]

In my Father's house there are many mansions. I go to prepare a place for you.

That is pretty specific to me of something going on up there for us.

   :smile: I think of this "I go to prepare a place for you" as "I go to be crucified, that where I am you may be also.."

In our Father's house is many mansions.. another version says, many abiding places.. I have to look up the words in STrong's or interlinear but my grand daughter is counting the seconds til I log off, as we've got some scrambling and need to turn off and reboot every thing..
    :gsmile: 

[joeteekay]

Marie,
I really appreciate you occasionaly focusing our attention to the OT holy days of God. I believe we cannot fully comprehend the miraculous plan of salvation to bring all human kind to glory unless the shadow of those holy days are understood.

Eventually I will write about this in some detail when discussing the third eon of eonian times in this thread.

Joe

  :angelharp: :angelharp:

[joeteekay]

Yea Joeteekay,

Thats exactly what I believe.

The bubble is the veil. Death, time and the grave are all veils. There are bubbles within bubbles. A veil is torn, and a bubble pops when we get connected to the Vine(on one level). Another pop at the resurrection. Another pop at the consummation at the end of the ages when death and the grave are destroyed. When God is all in all, every veil has been torn, every bubble has popped :o)

So by this analogy the bubble/veil of time will "pop" and time will be no more? That's what bro. Eby believes that time will end, I did as well for a while, but it is in "time" that things happen and should the bubble/veil "pop" and time is no more then everything just stops-freezes, nothing happens. I don't accept that sorry.

Psa 102:27 Yet You remain the same, And Your years shall not come to end." :dsunny:

The debate/discussion continues as to whether time existed before and will exist after "eonian times" (the 5 eons) have run their course. This debate  will prove inconclusive because it was never God's intention to tell us much of what was going on in the spirit realm outside of the period of the eons. The matter of endlessness is not at all a subject of scripture, but eonian times is the sole theme of the inspired Word (some material here is taken from L. Bynoe "The Eonian Times").

The "Eonian Times" are but one great part of God's plan in His dealing with the Physical Universe He created. The "Eons" are the times of evil. At the beginning of the "Eons" sin and death are introduced, and will continue its course until the end of the "Eons," or Consummation. Before the "Eons" we read of no evil manifested; there is no open record of such; and after the "Eons" we find no record of sin and evil, or death, "For the former things shall have been passed away." So the primary focus of the Scriptures are confined to the "Eonian Times." Another important reason of the eonian times is that God's creatures may come to know Him now.

The Eons were not eternal in the past .They had a beginning. The Eons will not be eternal in the future; they will have a conclusion. God hath spoken to humans, finite beings in periods of time. Only the infinite Mind can conceive of endlessness or eternity. God has not given us such minds. He has not made eternity a subject of revelation. Eternity is not known in the original Greek Scriptures or Hebrew text. Let us not add to His Word. Go back to God's original.

God's grand and glorious purpose will never be fully understood until we learn that this Greek word "aion" transliterated "eon" by the (Concordant Version), is a time word.

The Eonian Times are the period of sin and estrangement, but it is also the period God sets apart to bring His rebellious creatures terrestrial and celestial back to Himself. They embrace the entire period of His operation.
Eonian Times are the period of education in the knowledge of good and evil;
All the various aspects of time mentioned in the Scripture, days, months, years, times, seasons, etc., are all parts of Eonian Times and conform to His purpose of the Eons.
The matter of endlessness is not at all a subject of scripture, but eonian times is the sole theme of the inspired Word.

Theology so-called, has made the distinction of Time and Eternity, a term never used in the sacred scriptures in the original.

Men of note like J. Preston Eby and L. Ray Smith have made noble attempts to explain time and eternity. Mr. Eby does not consider time to exist outside of the eonian period whereas Mr. Smith makes a case for time existing in eternity. Both have flawed arguments IMO, because, as was stated above – they make assumptions beyond what is revealed in scripture. This is especially true of  Mr. Smith who uses human reasoning to make his case. He makes derogatory statements concerning the writing of Mr. Eby, to the point of calling his description of time and eternity heresy and other unkind words (e.g. Now here is where I get angry at this junk says Mr. Smith). Some forum comments on Mr. Smiths approach:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/l-ray-smith/35/?wap2

From Eby:

Suffice it to say here that there have been "aions" in the past, there is this present "aion," and there are "aions" to come. And these all combined make up TIME, encompassing the whole of the progressive plan and program of God for the development of His creation.

More from Mr. Eby:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/eternity.htm

Proof of Science concerning the physical universe which God created

Discoveries by Eienstien and  Minkowski have shown that there is a space time continium. In other words, the created physical universe is made up of the 3 Euclidean dimensions plus time. Thats what constitutes the eonian times period. So in spiritual terms, time is not a condition outside of the eonian times. Time is irrelevant to God's being.

Web sites concerning this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single interwoven continuum. The spacetime of our universe is usually interpreted from a Euclidean space perspective, which regards space as consisting of three dimensions, and time as consisting of one dimension, the "fourth imension". By combining space and time into a single manifold called Minkowski space, physicists have significantly simplified a large number of physical theories, as well as described in a more uniform way the workings of the universe at both the supergalactic and subatomic levels

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space

In mathematical physics, Minkowski space or Minkowski spacetime is a combination of Euclidean space and time into a four-dimensional manifold where the spacetime interval between any two events is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded. Although initially developed by mathematician Hermann Minkowski for Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism, the mathematical structure of Minkowski spacetime was shown to be an immediate consequence of the postulates of special relativity.[1]
Minkowski space is closely associated with Einstein's theory of special relativity,

https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/q411.html

What is a space time continuum?

In 1906, soon after Albert Einstein announced his special theory of relativity, his former college teacher in mathematics, Hermann Minkowski, developed a new scheme for thinking about space and time that emphasized its geometric qualities. In his famous quotation delivered at a public lecture on relativity, he announced that,
"The views of space and time which I wish to lay before you have sprung from the soil of experimental physics, and therein lies their strength. They are radical. henceforth, space by itself, and time by itself, are doomed to fade away into mere shadows, and only a kind of union of the two will preserve an independent reality."
his new reality was that space and time, as physical constructs, have to be combined into a new mathematical/physical entity called 'space-time', because the equations of relativity show that both the space and time coordinates of any event must get mixed together by the mathematics, in order to accurately describe what we see. Because space consists of 3 dimensions, and time is 1-dimensional, space-time must, therefore, be a 4-dimensional object. It is believed to be a 'continuum' because so far as we know, there are no missing points in space or instants in time, and both can be subdivided without any apparent limit in size or duration. So, physicists now routinely consider our world to be embedded in this 4-dimensional Space-Time continuum, and all events, places, moments in history, actions and so on are described in terms of their location in Space-Time.

From www.icr.org  - Institute for Creation Research:

There is an immeasurably and unimaginably huge universe out there (even though the most important part of it appears to be here). The physical universe is "temporal"—its physical characteristics are defined qualitatively and quantitatively in and by time, space, and mass/energy (usually abbreviated as just "matter").

Any effort to determine the cause of the universe is purely hypothetical. No human was there to observe the processes, so any attempt to understand events of pre-history (especially original events) must, therefore, be based on "belief systems," or presuppositions. While the theories and ideas may be many, the presuppositions can only be of two sorts: 1) there is an infinite series of causes, going back into infinite time, with no ultimate Cause; or 2) there exists an uncaused First Cause that was "outside" or transcendent to the universe.
Many scientists today conduct their research based on their presupposition or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world—that which can be seen around us—and thus they do not accept that any ultimate Cause exists.

Scientists at ICR hold to the presupposition that the "uncaused First Cause" is the Creator who exists outside of the physical creation He made. Time is not eternal, but created. To ask what happened in time before time was created is to create a false paradox without meaning. There was no "before" prior to the creation of the triune universe of time, space, and mass/energy.

Yet even more amazing (and the universe is amazing) is the historic fact that the Creator-God, after purposefully creating the time-space-matter universe, chose to enter it in the God-human person of Jesus Christ—for the sole purpose of providing a means by which humanity could have a personal relationship with the Creator.

Christ Jesus, He is before eonian times and He remaineth the same in the glory of the Father, after the eons have run their course. He is the A and Z. The First and the Last, i.e. He is the first and last of God's direct creation. Col. 1:15-16.

In Conclusion:

Time is an attribute of "Eonian Times", the 5 eons.
When God created the physical universe, He created time.
At the consummation the eons conclude and so does time.
Even tho He is everywhere present thru His Spirit, He is not dependent on time or the physical creation.
As Lastpost has said. God is LOVE. This is Gods being and primary attribute.
To Him time is another part of His physical creation as are the black holes, the spiral galaxies, the atom and sub-atomic particles, etc. - and things yet for mankind to discover..
The Great, Magnificent Creator God.
As EW has said quoting Paul "we see through a glass darkly".

[marie glen]

Marie,
I really appreciate you occasionaly focusing our attention to the OT holy days of God. I believe we cannot fully comprehend the miraculous plan of salvation to bring all human kind to glory unless the shadow of those holy days are understood.

Eventually I will write about this in some detail when discussing the third eon of eonian times in this thread.

Joe

  :angelharp: :angelharp:

I love the title of this thread! His perfect plan! ..and perfect intent.. and I'm looking forward to part 3! :smile:

.......
I had a thought about time.. and how there will be "a new heavens and a new earth, wherein righteousness/rightness is to dwell"
  :banana: :banana:

.."the lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow."
           
I understand that there was likely no space and time before God created it. I think, too, that it is a natural law that if there is space, there is time, that the two go together. If there is space, there is movement, which requires there also be time. 

Genesis 8:22
"While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

I know the New Jerusalem after coming to the Earth will not need light for God's light will light it, but also..

Concordant version - also Gen 8:22
"In the future, for all the days of the earth, seedtime and harvest, + cold and warmth, + summer and winter, + day and night, they shall not cease."

To me, this implies space (and time)..  and if there is space and movement.. implies time.. from one point of motion to another..

But of course, this is but theory and present human understanding and also present natural law.. which God is beyond and more than.. Yet my thought is, perhaps a universe (bubble?) populated by His very own family (of many beautiful branches) is part of His intent.. To not just create sentient beings, but surroundings, environment, life, activity.. Being in His image, also, I think, includes being creative.. not creator, but creative.. active.. I do think substance will be finer, and lighter (with no unrightness :thumbsup: ).. "I go to prepare a place for you" ..."in my Father's house are many abodes/abiding places.."

No space and time, to my finite understanding implies we would be only mind.. so why would we then require a new body...
   :Peace2: :smile: just some thoughts..

[eaglesway]

The debate/discussion continues as to whether time existed before and will exist after "eonian times" (the 5 eons) have run their course. This debate  will prove inconclusive because it was never God's intention to tell us much of what was going on in the spirit realm outside of the period of the eons. The matter of endlessness is not at all a subject of scripture, but eonian times is the sole theme of the inspired Word

We know not yet wht we shall be,, but we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, you will be also.

I agree whole heartedly that some things are debated, that ought only be discussed, because there is no clear revelation or plain writing concerning them in the scriptures.....only hints and glimpses.

Even future aionian times are only broadly spoken of in general terms, as glorious and of great blessing to the elect, for the purpose of continuing the restoration of creation in these stages known as eons. Even the far distant past is only addressed in a few paragraphs, everything up to Abraham being summed up in a few chapters. Almost everything else that is written for this age regards the elect- the patriarchs, the judges, the prophets, the Messiah and the ecclesia. But what is written between the lines is the honey of the Word to me. Insights into who He is, how much He loves us all and how Wonderful His plan really is.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.(Rom 8)


But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph 2)

Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. (James 1)

[marie glen]

"Insights into who He is, how much He loves us all and how Wonderful His plan really is."

:thumbsup: :banana: :thumbsup: amen, amen! :smile: the most relevant things..!

[eaglesway]

http://1drv.ms/1mDksWN

[joeteekay]

Great graphic EW. As has been said a picture is worth a 1000 words
Marie and your posts have given me motivation to continue in this thread.
:dsunny:

[marie glen]

The phrase "in the beginning" is pretty vague imo. It doesn't have to mean anything other than our own universe.

I believe that to be the case.. :smile:

[micah7:9]

The phrase "in the beginning" is pretty vague imo. It doesn't have to mean anything other than our own universe.

I believe that to be the case.. :smile:

See post #29

[rosered]

Gen. 1:1 In the BEGINNING (H7225 the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.)

Pro 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

1Co 15:20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing."

Col 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,

Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."

Jesus Christ is the "in the beginning" He is the Firstfruit He is the Principal thing He is Wisdom.

Pro 8:23 From the eon was I inaugurated, From the beginning, preceeding the earth;"

Jesus Christ is the "in the beginning" He is the Firstfruit He is the Principal thing He is Wisdom. :Peace2:

  :thumbsup:   :banana: :banana:    Jesus Christ is the wisdom of God  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:



The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction!



But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. As the Scriptures say,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
    and discard the intelligence of the intelligent."
So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense.

But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God's weakness is stronger than the greatest of human strength.

Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world's eyes or powerful or wealthy when God called you. Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful. God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important. As a result, no one can ever boast in the presence of God.

God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin. Therefore, as the Scriptures say, "If you want to boast, boast only about the Lord."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, I'll throw out there what He gave me years ago on time. Time is the measurement of death. Something has to die to create time (think of the seasons for example and winter). Therefore there's no time in His Spirit because there's no death in His Spirit. When He poured Himself into the physicality of His creation, it was a "lowering", a type of death, making time possible. My  :2c: Blessings....

[sheila]

I agree totally,Bex

[micah7:9]

"Time is the measurement of death. Something has to die to create time (think of the seasons for example and winter)."

This is an incredible statement, incredible. So "winter" is death? Death, which is DEAD measures time? Time does not stop or nothing would happen...nothing. Winter begets Spring....so Winter is dead and still produces?
"When He poured Himself into the physicality of His creation," He did not "pour" Himself into the creation...He Is The Creation! :2c: blessings  :dsunny: :HeartThrob: Oh I forgot to ad in my opinion.