new paper on leaving church doctrine carnality behind

[eaglesway]

Once again, I believe common ground can be found here - believe on Jesus as Savior, enjoy fellowship with Him, with His help and power working through us, follow Him in obedience and surrender.  Be honest and open with Him about our failures (agree with Him/confess), look to Him for deliverance.  And in our weaknesses, His grace is sufficient.   :dsunny:

[jabcat]

I am comfortable with the site's definition.

it always helps me to simplify........the token sealed with/holy spirit as down payment[salvation work begun of Him in you] and

  promise/guarantee of assured salvation/deliverance from body of death[seperation from sin.]
   

:2thumbs:

[Patinak]

   You are not being disagreeable John

  Its just seems salvation , means   many  different  things to many people     and the process   of salvation

I find anyone can find that certain scripture    that explains their point  and what they  understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to     counter them
  I have seen this very thing so often .... and many  including myself try to explain      our position in Christ  salvation .
We may be saved from   those things but as new things arise    that  we must  overcome    them still   , it is by faith     that we are saved , it is a gift of God  .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured  or allotted . 



:iagree:

The problem is the article does make a patently false statement to prove a dubious point. The other issues are used to prove this point.

So, if someone states in the forum as fact something that is not provable or is false, we require that they say- in my opinion, or I believe this or that.

If they circumvent that by posting it as an article, either the article must be removed or the statement questioned. Salvation may mean different things to different folks.....and certainly it does, but why post an article if it is not to be read, and if read, responded to.

The article makes many statements, some of which are true. I just mentioned one false statement- as that seems to be the core presentaion of the article.

Many of us kno what it is like to be on a sojourn, or to be out of sync with organized Christianity- but this does not prove the statement that there are no verses in the Bible that say we have been saved in a past tense or are saved in the present tense.

I could list a dozen, but that is a discourse that has been covered on the site several times I think :o)

If an article is written in an authoritative manner, rather than as "something to consider"- it is even more important that it be explored as to the content.

Since we have always accepted that the scriptures are the basis of discussion on TM, if a statement is made about the scriptures that is clearly innacurate, it needs to be noted. The article is not talking about "that certain verse"- it is setting a much wider scope, saying that there are no verses that express an alternate view.

John, did you mean to reply to my reply to Rose?
Pat

[bushy]

I think it is quite helpful to discuss the issue of 'saved' and what the word means. When I first came to the forum five years ago I thought saved was from hell (I had just escaped that thinking). But I didn't understand what I was saved from. I know I'm slow and it's taken a long time to get to where I have an understanding that satisfies me even though it is different some than what others here seem to see.

Having an experience that made me see that God had accepted me just like I am felt like a salvation experience to me but if not from hell, saved from what? Now I see we are being saved from sin but are not there yet so the future salvation is when we are free of sin. So far this is what makes sense to me as far as present and future salvation is about.

Gal 1:4 "who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"

I think this applies to everyone whether they know it or not since Jesus didn't die just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. Most people don't know what a pickle they would be in if it hadn't been for that sacrifice and of course I don't understand it all either but I accept the fact that we needed rescuing from the present evil age, and the sacrifice Jesus made did just that.

When I first came to understand UR it was so refreshing to see the wall between 'them' and 'us' come down in my mind. So even though there has to be a starting point for everyone to begin a spiritual walk, I can accept that everyone has the same Father in heaven as I do who brought is all into this world and has made Himself responsible for all his children like a good father would. And I love Him for it.  :HeartThrob:

[Patinak]

I think it is quite helpful to discuss the issue of 'saved' and what the word means. When I first came to the forum five years ago I thought saved was from hell (I had just escaped that thinking). But I didn't understand what I was saved from. I know I'm slow and it's taken a long time to get to where I have an understanding that satisfies me even though it is different some than what others here seem to see.

Having an experience that made me see that God had accepted me just like I am felt like a salvation experience to me but if not from hell, saved from what? Now I see we are being saved from sin but are not there yet so the future salvation is when we are free of sin. So far this is what makes sense to me as far as present and future salvation is about.

Gal 1:4 "who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"

I think this applies to everyone whether they know it or not since Jesus didn't die just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. Most people don't know what a pickle they would be in if it hadn't been for that sacrifice and of course I don't understand it all either but I accept the fact that we needed rescuing from the present evil age, and the sacrifice Jesus made did just that.

When I first came to understand UR it was so refreshing to see the wall between 'them' and 'us' come down in my mind. So even though there has to be a starting point for everyone to begin a spiritual walk, I can accept that everyone has the same Father in heaven as I do who brought is all into this world and has made Himself responsible for all his children like a good father would. And I love Him for it.  :HeartThrob:

Great post :thumbsup:

[rosered]

   You are not being disagreeable John

  Its just seems salvation , means   many  different  things to many people     and the process   of salvation

I find anyone can find that certain scripture    that explains their point  and what they  understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to     counter them
  I have seen this very thing so often .... and many  including myself try to explain      our position in Christ  salvation .
We may be saved from   those things but as new things arise    that  we must  overcome    them still   , it is by faith     that we are saved , it is a gift of God  .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured  or allotted . 



:iagree:

The problem is the article does make a patently false statement to prove a dubious point. The other issues are used to prove this point.

So, if someone states in the forum as fact something that is not provable or is false, we require that they say- in my opinion, or I believe this or that.

If they circumvent that by posting it as an article, either the article must be removed or the statement questioned. Salvation may mean different things to different folks.....and certainly it does, but why post an article if it is not to be read, and if read, responded to.

The article makes many statements, some of which are true. I just mentioned one false statement- as that seems to be the core presentaion of the article.

Many of us kno what it is like to be on a sojourn, or to be out of sync with organized Christianity- but this does not prove the statement that there are no verses in the Bible that say we have been saved in a past tense or are saved in the present tense.

I could list a dozen, but that is a discourse that has been covered on the site several times I think :o)

If an article is written in an authoritative manner, rather than as "something to consider"- it is even more important that it be explored as to the content.

Since we have always accepted that the scriptures are the basis of discussion on TM, if a statement is made about the scriptures that is clearly innacurate, it needs to be noted. The article is not talking about "that certain verse"- it is setting a much wider scope, saying that there are no verses that express an alternate view.

John, did you mean to reply to my reply to Rose?
Pat

  Hi Pat   perhaps   me , I would say   and maybe your agreement     

  I agree with Johns   point  of view     in the sense of    speaking with   authority in     the article   ,as end all    and undisputed   truth .


   and lacking the grace   of saying ," As I see it "or  " My own point of view ."

  I saw it was Ray Smith    .   by  chance   on page 6

   I have to be perfectly honest    , I hardly ever read    articles     and its 37 pages long  :eek:  and did not read the whole thing  ..
 
  I do believe in my heart  God deals with us all individually      and when Jesus said ,  some will    receive 30 fold and some 60 fold and some 100 fold in this life  and eternal life in the next age      , speaking  about the very hearts of mankind , and   to me Jesus is speaking about the  seed of faith  planted in the  hearts  as the Word of God being    the  incorruptible   seed of Christ ..  and how the meek shall inherit the earth , those without much "earth"  are heard hearted and    the seed   dies   in us
  These are the things I could relate to in  searching for God      and seeking salvation    though Jesus Christ    whom is the Resurrection and the Life    I do not see anything   outside of Jesus Christ   that has Life in them   that the Bible teaches  us what is truth   and it is a now thing  , being our salvation is neaerer than we first believed ..
we are   in the process of     being saved from      a wicked and adulterous generation   as Bushy so graciously  posted .
  and Shelia as  we are being saved from the law of sin and death

Salvation  being   "healed from sin sickness  unto death   and  sleep    being   sadness with" no hope" as   the world sees it  and   drunkenness of    the wine of the wrath of God  , that Babylon is  promised .

  FAITH   , HOPE AND LOVE   are the   3 things that remain in Christ   as Paul  preached   , to Love   and know your loved   is  being secure   , there is nothing  more frightening that    those feeling of  darkness  ,  insecurity  and emptiness        and lack      inside you   not knowing salvation .

  and the      world  that lies in  wickedness   1 John 5 ...18 We know that no one who is born of God sins;

but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

20And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true;

and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life....

     Jesus Christ   Life is in us , because His Spirit of obedience  to the Fathers Spirit are   as ONE  and  totally  agree   with no divisions

He is the faithful One who keeps us   and being hid in Christ is our hope   that we might  walk in newness of Life   by the Holy Spirit of truth

LOVE  being the greatest thing possible to  inherit    in   Knowing the Father though the Son  and being a part of this so great a salvation 

  Hebrews 2 Pay Attention to Salvation


...2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,

3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,


4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

It is not that there is disagreement that all will be saved but the manner in which all will be saved, or for some are already saved, can represent a 180 difference in how one approaches sin. I think is why Gary wrote an article on the dangers of the Carlton Pearson understanding. He thought that such an expression of universalism warranted some kind of warning and clarification.

That way of thinking about universalism is so influential, it's probably going continue to be an issue from time to time.

[rosered]

It is not that there is disagreement that all will be saved but the manner in which all will be saved, or for some are already saved, can represent a 180 difference in how one approaches sin. I think is why Gary wrote an article on the dangers of the Carlton Pearson understanding. He thought that such an expression of universalism warranted some kind of warning and clarification.

That way of thinking about universalism is so influential, it's probably going continue to be an issue from time to time.

  I do believe you have hit the nail on the head Seth  :dsunny:

   The extremes between the two     , James was speaking of  earlier and some how the  balance   of UR   not being    what is the name of the anything goes  religion   , that is not what UR stands for ..
and a friend of the world   is an enemy against  God !!

  Many think it is a free pass   to ''do whatever you want '' and still be  SAVED

It  sure does NOT work like that ...



 

 

[Seth]

 :iagree: Rose

[micah7:9]

One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.

:iagree:

[eaglesway]

It is not that there is disagreement that all will be saved but the manner in which all will be saved, or for some are already saved, can represent a 180 difference in how one approaches sin. I think is why Gary wrote an article on the dangers of the Carlton Pearson understanding. He thought that such an expression of universalism warranted some kind of warning and clarification.

That way of thinking about universalism is so influential, it's probably going continue to be an issue from time to time.

  I do believe you have hit the nail on the head Seth  :dsunny:

   The extremes between the two     , James was speaking of  earlier and some how the  balance   of UR   not being    what is the name of the anything goes  religion   , that is not what UR stands for ..
and a friend of the world   is an enemy against  God !!

  Many think it is a free pass   to "do whatever you want " and still be  SAVED

It  sure does NOT work like that ...

Their were people who taught this in Pauls day. There will always be people who teach this. It is a common heresy, not just among UR believers.

This is one of the things I was trying to say in the forum issues thread. We tend to make these issues connected to UR, but really, all Christendom is arguing over these same issues, UR, ET, ED- among all groups there are those who teach grace as a license to sin.

The answer is not to change the fundamental teaching of salvation in response. There is no protection against such a deception other than to proclaim, and live, the truth.

It is for this reason we are told to exhort the brethren to love and good works and warn the wicked from his way.

[Seth]

The question I have about that is when say let's not change the fundamental teaching. If we go by what we see in scripture we can't change the fundamental teaching, but it might disagree with what the orthodoxy has taught in some key areas and that might cause discomfort with them. The doctrine of hell is a fundamental point with ER. We've already changed that because we see that it's not in scripture, and it makes them uncomfortable.

When I accepted that everyone would be saved, my immediate next thought was saved from what and whether or not it's a process or whether everyone is already saved. I'd wager to guess that seekers who come to this forum are also looking for answers on that and that is probably why it comes in waves and probably will continue to.

[eaglesway]

I think it is quite helpful to discuss the issue of 'saved' and what the word means. When I first came to the forum five years ago I thought saved was from hell (I had just escaped that thinking). But I didn't understand what I was saved from. I know I'm slow and it's taken a long time to get to where I have an understanding that satisfies me even though it is different some than what others here seem to see.

Having an experience that made me see that God had accepted me just like I am felt like a salvation experience to me but if not from hell, saved from what? Now I see we are being saved from sin but are not there yet so the future salvation is when we are free of sin. So far this is what makes sense to me as far as present and future salvation is about.

Gal 1:4 "who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"

I think this applies to everyone whether they know it or not since Jesus didn't die just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. Most people don't know what a pickle they would be in if it hadn't been for that sacrifice and of course I don't understand it all either but I accept the fact that we needed rescuing from the present evil age, and the sacrifice Jesus made did just that.

When I first came to understand UR it was so refreshing to see the wall between 'them' and 'us' come down in my mind. So even though there has to be a starting point for everyone to begin a spiritual walk, I can accept that everyone has the same Father in heaven as I do who brought is all into this world and has made Himself responsible for all his children like a good father would. And I love Him for it.  :HeartThrob:

Great post :thumbsup:

I understand what you are saying and I agree with your definition of what we are saved from. I dont agree that everyone has been saved from it. I do agree everyone will be saved from it, that the provision has been made and is open to all.

IMO, The wall between "us" and "them" is taken down by love, if we walk in the spirit- but there is in the language of Jesus and the apostles- a call to be "saved" regardless of how we define it- what reason for the attention paid to it in the preaching of Jesus and the apostles if all already have it?

It is beautiful and freeing to see that God will save all, and each of us must walk out the "word of reconciliation" and "the ministry of reconciliation" as we feel led.

But we are also called to suffer for the testimony of Jesus Christ and I think Paul makes it clear there are adversaries hostile of mind and heart who will never escape their condition until they repent- "among them we too all once walked", "and such were some of you", "everyknee shall bow"

No service is done for them by simply ackowledging that they are already saved- because everyone will have to, at some point, come across the threshhold of repentence- that self knowledge and change of heart and embracing of God's love that the gospel brings.

We are called to testify to this. God loves them, but many of them will hate us, even as we love them, because of the gospel- according to Jesus.

The idea that we ought not tell men of their estate and need for Jesus Christ in order to escape it into a better estate, the kingdom of God, is an error imo.



I wonder is it that we dont want to be persecuted for the sake of the gospel?

[eaglesway]

The question I have about that is when say let's not change the fundamental teaching. If we go by what we see in scripture we can't change the fundamental teaching, but it might disagree with what the orthodoxy has taught in some key areas and that might cause discomfort with them. The doctrine of hell is a fundamental point with ER. We've already changed that because we see that it's not in scripture, and it makes them uncomfortable.

When I accepted that everyone would be saved, my immediate next thought was saved from what and whether or not it's a process or whether everyone is already saved. I'd wager to guess that seekers who come to this forum are also looking for answers on that and that is probably why it comes in waves and probably will continue to.

And those are all good thoughts, because when we realize that we are not saved from hell in is logical to re-examne the issue. However, before I was convinced of UR, I already knew I was saved from sin. I already knew I was saved from "this perverse generation". I already knew about progessive salvation and the culmination of salvation.

These are not issues every ETr is ignorant of, and as a UR believer I STILL believe we are saved from wrath to come, just not eternal hell.

I should have said "fundamental teaching of scripture on salvation". I did not mean "orthodox" per say. That we have been saved, are being saved and will be saved is the fundamental teaching of the scriptures.

I think the waves are not necessarily from seekers into UR. They are just doctrinal issues people are divided over whether UR or not.

By waves I meant the same folks saying the same things contesting the same issues over and over.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

I try to just link to the hashed out thread to avoid that.

[eaglesway]

:iagree:

I try to just link to the hashed out thread to avoid that.

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I also think it is perfectly acceptable to leave issues unresolved and turn the discussion back towards the salvation of all, by simply saying,

"I rejoice that all will eventually be reconciled to God, and that God will become all in all, as every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father... and I rejoice that we all share in that vision"

[bushy]

I think it is quite helpful to discuss the issue of 'saved' and what the word means. When I first came to the forum five years ago I thought saved was from hell (I had just escaped that thinking). But I didn't understand what I was saved from. I know I'm slow and it's taken a long time to get to where I have an understanding that satisfies me even though it is different some than what others here seem to see.

Having an experience that made me see that God had accepted me just like I am felt like a salvation experience to me but if not from hell, saved from what? Now I see we are being saved from sin but are not there yet so the future salvation is when we are free of sin. So far this is what makes sense to me as far as present and future salvation is about.

Gal 1:4 "who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"

I think this applies to everyone whether they know it or not since Jesus didn't die just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. Most people don't know what a pickle they would be in if it hadn't been for that sacrifice and of course I don't understand it all either but I accept the fact that we needed rescuing from the present evil age, and the sacrifice Jesus made did just that.

When I first came to understand UR it was so refreshing to see the wall between 'them' and 'us' come down in my mind. So even though there has to be a starting point for everyone to begin a spiritual walk, I can accept that everyone has the same Father in heaven as I do who brought is all into this world and has made Himself responsible for all his children like a good father would. And I love Him for it.  :HeartThrob:

Great post :thumbsup:

I understand what you are saying and I agree with your definition of what we are saved from. I dont agree that everyone has been saved from it. I do agree everyone will be saved from it, that the provision has been made and is open to all.

IMO, The wall between "us" and "them" is taken down by love, if we walk in the spirit- but there is in the language of Jesus and the apostles- a call to be "saved" regardless of how we define it- what reason for the attention paid to it in the preaching of Jesus and the apostles if all already have it?

It is beautiful and freeing to see that God will save all, and each of us must walk out the "word of reconciliation" and "the ministry of reconciliation" as we feel led.

But we are also called to suffer for the testimony of Jesus Christ and I think Paul makes it clear there are adversaries hostile of mind and heart who will never escape their condition until they repent- "among them we too all once walked", "and such were some of you", "everyknee shall bow"

No service is done for them by simply ackowledging that they are already saved- because everyone will have to, at some point, come across the threshhold of repentence- that self knowledge and change of heart and embracing of God's love that the gospel brings.

We are called to testify to this. God loves them, but many of them will hate us, even as we love them, because of the gospel- according to Jesus.

The idea that we ought not tell men of their estate and need for Jesus Christ in order to escape it into a better estate, the kingdom of God, is an error imo.



I wonder is it that we dont want to be persecuted for the sake of the gospel?

Funny thing is that even though you disagree with some things I said, I agree with everything you said.  :laugh: I'm not real good at including everything I would like to say.

But one question, what do you think being rescued from this evil age means and who does it include? If not everyone, did the sacrifice Jesus made benefit everyone whether they know it or not?

And just so you know, I am asking because I really respect your understanding of these things and not to argue.

[Seth]

Maybe it would be helpful to have a repository of secondary issues that have been discussed to death, but newbies come with the same question, you could direct them there, even just a single page with a list of topics. Not sure if something like that exists already?

Free will/sovereignty, trinity, salvation meaning, lake of fire, etc etc could all go into that repository and newbies coming onto the forum can be encouraged to go there and read up on these discussions before posting so as not to keep bringing it up over and over.

From what I am seeing that's a pattern. We have a long discussion about something, it gets resolved, then a newbie with the same question comes around and the whole topic picks back up again. Whereas if they had a spot to see all those discussions already laid out, it would encourage less of the same topic to come up over and over. Not to say that further discussion would outlawed, but the newbie could have it communicated that we want to avoid the continual wave of controversy that arises from these topics.

The only reason I post links to other, longer discussions is if I remember to bookmark them. It might be handy for you moderators to have them all in one place so that you could even PM the newbies and say, "please take a look at this discussion and see if it answers your question."

This happens in other forums all the time where they say "please make sure to check if your question has been answered elsewhere before asking."

[eaglesway]

I think a such repository is a good idea. we could make it as links posted in a thread titled "topic archive" or something like that.

List the topics and post a couple links to each one from past threads.

[dajomaco]

"I rejoice that all will eventually be reconciled to God, and that God will become all in all, as every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father... and I rejoice that we all share in that vision"

[jabcat]

Yes, we can look at those ideas, thanks  :thumbsup:

Interesting points and questions raised.  A few thoughts;  the scriptures say some the devil as their father, and that not all know God (some are "not of the faith" per Paul).  In fact, many are enemies of God. 

As far as Jesus' death benefiting all...I believe it opened the door to Life, but not all are given that Life in this age.  I don't know why God chose that as His plan, and we might prefer or desire it some other way.  But as I understand, that's what the scriptures declare.  The "elect" in this age, through no worth of their own but of God's mercy, and then the rest enter the Door into Life later, in the next age. 

[jabcat]

I believe that's why believers in this age are given the word of reconciliation.  The scriptures show how that happens.

Romans 10:13,14,15 ..whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  How can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them? 15 And how can anyone tell them unless they are sent? The Scriptures say beautiful are the feet of those coming to preach the good news.

[gregoryfl]

Yes, we can look at those ideas, thanks  :thumbsup:

Interesting points and questions raised.  A few thoughts;  the scriptures say some the devil as their father, and that not all know God (some are "not of the faith" per Paul).  In fact, many are enemies of God. 

As far as Jesus' death benefiting all...I believe it opened the door to Life, but not all are given that Life in this age.  I don't know why God chose that as His plan, and we might prefer or desire it some other way.  But as I understand, that's what the scriptures declare.  The "elect" in this age, through no worth of their own but of God's mercy, and then the rest enter the Door into Life later, in the next age.

I believe that's why believers in this age are given the word of reconciliation.  The scriptures show how that happens.

Romans 10:13,14,15 ..whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  How can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them? 15 And how can anyone tell them unless they are sent? The Scriptures say beautiful are the feet of those coming to preach the good news.

As one who, like Bushy, also believes that the Father accomplished salvation, forgiveness of sin, and reconciliation through his Son, not potentially, but in actuality, like James, I also believe that not all are of the faith, some are children of the wicked one, and that not all know God.

The accomplishment of those things is the very motivation behind my sharing this good news with others, because not only did God design the result (salvation, forgiveness, reconciliation) but also the means to that end (sending believers to the unbeliever that they may hear and believe and be saved, forgiven, and reconciled).

It truly is in how one understands these various concepts.

Ronen

[dajomaco]

We have been set free from the enemy.
We were once captives,but now today can walk in freedom ,
Knowing we have been saved from bondage.