new paper on leaving church doctrine carnality behind

[watchman1706]

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article17_exodus_to_exile_pt1.html

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[rosered]

 

  Good stuff    :thumbsup:, can so relate   , thanks so much for sharing it  Watchman 1706 !!!  :HeartThrob:

:dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

Wow, that was long, and it took me a few, repeated sessions to finish to the end.  Now I better understand my church exile for the past many years.  This is too deep for words... :dsunny:

EDIT:  What the essay says reminds me of the exile and journey in my own dream landscape, as written down in my story Impasse and Exit.  Find it here if you care to read it - it all comes from the same Source, I believe.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/humor-poems-songs-movies/impasse-and-exit-(a-sort-of-story)/msg139233/#msg139233

[eaglesway]

Sorry to disagree, being ol disagreeable me :o)

As many true things as there are in this article, I think there is an untrue vein running through the whole thing.

"And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)

Now, we're not denying that scripture. What we're saying is Christendom doesn't know what that scripture means! Indeed if you do call upon the name of the Lord, you shall be saved. Notice, it is in the future tense. It doesn't say you "have been" saved: if you believe you "have been already" saved. There is no scripture in the bible that says anybody has ever been saved while they were still alive. You know that? There is no such thing as "being saved" in the past tense, while you are still alive. There's a reason why Christ says, "They'll hate you and persecute you and everything, but he that endures until the END has "already been" saved....no, you endure to the end and then you "SHALL be saved." You are not saved, unless and until, we come up in the first resurrection. That is the only proof that anyone will have that they are saved, if you come up in the first resurrection. If you don't, then you are not saved; it's just axiomatic, if you don't come up in that resurrection

There are many verses in the bible that say we have been(past tense) saved, and are being(in this life -present tense) saved.

Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.

Ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Altho there are many true things in the article about sojourn and pilgrimage and exodus, because those things are linked to an absolute declaration about the doctrine of salvation, I cannot be silent in objecting to this statement.

QUOTE - There is no scripture in the bible that says anybody has ever been saved while they were still alive.


It is true that we must remain faithful and believing.

It is true that it is not easy.

It is true that we must pick up His cross.

It is not true that there is no verse in scripture that says we have been(past tense) saved, or that we cannot experience salvation in this life.

I listed 6 verses. There are more. The article encourages us to receive the whole counsel of God. Then we are asked us to throw away the on-the-face meaning of Eph 2:7-10 and read it as if the other verses somehow change its core meaning. If the article was written in the tone of "things to ponder" it would be different.

True scriptural exegesis must incorporate all the scriptures. The scriptures do not contradict each other, they integrate in a proper context. Here are three statements, each and all simultaneously represented by scripture.

1)We have been saved by grace. 2)We are being saved in this grace in which we stand. 3)We will be saved if we stand faithful to the end.....all true.

To say the third statement invalidates the first or second is a incorrect, a contradiction against scripture, and an undermines the confidence of  little ones who rely on assurance to withstand the assault of accusation that comes day and night from the accuser of the brethren.

Even while in a state of sojourn, were the Israelites His children? YES! Were they chosen out of the world to be separated unto God? YES! Were they saved? YES!

Isaiah 63:9 In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.

"YES! THE HOLY SPIRIT SAYS!!!! ABBA FATHER! I have been saved. I rejoice in the hope of the glory of God because that is Christ in me- the hope pf glory."

Am I saying it is easy? No. Am I saying that I do not have to endure to the end? No.

Am I saying that we have already entered a blessed state? YES!

"He that believes in me has passed from death unto life"

Am I saying salvation is ours and all we must do is abide in Him for it to achieve its promised end? YES! Is that easy? NO! But it is still true.

It is not true, that there are no scriptures that say we have been saved past tense or present, and that is important, because if I give you a gallon of truth but insert a thimble of error that will rob many believers of their assurance, and the source of their strength to do the things they need to do and believe th things they need in order to endure to the end- this does not serve the gospel.


There are some wonderful things in this article- but the article CONFIRMS ITSELF based on a circular reasoning. The invalidation of that one statement punctures it. There are a large number of verses that testify to our present blessed salvation- as well as there are verses that testify to more salvation and sanctification as we abide in it.

In our zeal to "leave" traditional Christianity behind we cannot leave the scriptures behind.

The assurance of salvation does not make salvation easy. It does not void discipleship.

IT DOES MAKE US CHILDREN OF GOD. SAVED. ASSURED. CITIZENS OF THE KINGDOM THAT IS COMING.....and has already come IN US.

The message of sojourn and exodus does not negate the message of the new creation. "If any man be in Christ Jesus He is a new creation". "Neither circumcision or uncircumcision is anything- but a new creation"

That is what it means to be saved.

[jabcat]

 As you say, there are many good things in the article, but not sure why the author would take such a view on salvation, especially when there are many other scriptures to consider.  :thumbsup:

[Seth]

Eaglesway  :iagree:

[rosered]

  Oh My , I  am going to share    my own perspective    and hope it is without any offense  , I shrink back in fear often      and wait   , but

  I believe the ''confusion ''  is that it is the Christ ''seed =Word of God '' in you that lives   , is the main point   brothers
  Not so much our old selves   that is   not   holy nor spiritual  in nature , but  earthly sensual and devilish  , being very ''forceful ''  and demanding and controlling

  or even the ''wrong spirit '' in nature  and have seen this   very thing over the years  at Tenmakers ...
  Paul said in several places    also when  sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with new ''ears''     it is Life to you , but death to us ..

2Corh 4 Treasures in Jars of Clay    :dsunny:
...11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
We know this means  being Spiritual in nature ,, and allowing the Spirit to move and breath   without killing it . by the smothering of the flesh works in all of us
   it is the same crucifying Christ   for  sin , the saving grace of    sacrificing   the innocent  blood  for the guilty     , the  life is in the  INNOCENT  BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST    , it is the offering  of grace     as pouring yourself out as a drink offering  , unless you eat His body and drink his blood , you will never have His LIFE IN YOU     [ this is discerning the body of Christ ]    and those gathered in Him   ..   

12So death works in us, but life in you.


13But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,...

We learn to trust   Gods Spirit  and have it provide      for us   , exactly as Jesus  done [ His Spirit is totally dependant on the Father  for everything ...

the works, the words   , the Life and even   life back from the dead as ''resurrection'' NEW AND PERFECT LIFE   , the Father giving Him power over all things at   the point of   being the PERFECT SON   back from the dead    as Salvation being      delivered from death    our main  example and   , We SEE JESUS AS     THE PERFECT COME   death did not hold Him ...
    , and have many examples of this    from Saul to Paul   repurposed   same lump   etc .


    This  is the  better resurrection that Paul speaks of in Hebrews 11    Those all died in Faith   , this faith  made it possible to  please God    not having the Christ  Spirit  nor seed in them and yet      waited patiently for God to  in the fulness of times   send the Lord Jesus Christ  to finish the work promised from the beginning     , THEY ARE  RAISED NOW AND APART OF THE CITY OF GOD   '' THE NEW JERUSALEM  '' coming down out of heaven    that rest on   us[remain in  quiet strength  of  Holy  Spirit   ALIVE and active in us  ]  and  of the HOLY SPIRIT ''Great Cloud of witnesses  with Christ in His return       [Acts 1]  His Spirit is poured out on all flesh

  making Acts 2 "And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)  not very far away from anyone of us  [ Acts 17] 

Great Examples of Faith
11 Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. 2 Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation.

3 By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.

4 It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel's offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith.

5 It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—"he disappeared, because God took him." For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. 6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

7 It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith.

8 It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. 9 And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. 10 Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.

11 It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. 12 And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them.

13 All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. 14 Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. 15 If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. 16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17 It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God's promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, 18 even though God had told him, "Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted." 19 Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead.

20 It was by faith that Isaac promised blessings for the future to his sons, Jacob and Esau.

21 It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff.

22 It was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, said confidently that the people of Israel would leave Egypt. He even commanded them to take his bones with them when they left.

23 It was by faith that Moses' parents hid him for three months when he was born. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king's command.

24 It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter.

25 He chose to share the oppression of God's people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of Christ than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his great reward.

27 It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king's anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. 28 It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons.

29 It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned.

30 It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down.

31 It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.

32 How much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets.

33 By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. 35 Women received their loved ones back again from death.

But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. 36 Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. 37 Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. 38 They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.

39 All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. 40 For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.

  They have when Jesus said it is finished  !!  I have done the work you sent me to do  and that was to destroy death[last enemy ]   and the works of the devil   

  and cut it short in righteousness    ,, He gave Himself   over to death    and    destroyed it   , by the FATHERS  DESIRE /WILL   so we can LIVE    to Him for Him and in Him and Him in us    ..

  I hope this is   not offensive   to anyone   ,  it seems right now the whole world is offended over words   , and flags and   symbols ,  such  things   as to cause divisions  .

   But Jesus told us  Blessed is He who is NOT offended because of Me  ,  the SPIRIT &TRUTH    shall set us free     

  I am  still here  for  Jesus Christ sake       as I hope this is the  very  reason any one of us are  her at the Tentmaker .   

   we are to leave   the church of Babylon  behind us  unless we  partake  of the same plagues  and judgments as Her ''teachings ''.

Luke 7:23
Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me."

John 6:61
Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you?

John 16:1
"All this I have told you so that you will not fall away.
Taming the Tongue
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
   

I am one sincere believer    that the HOLY SPIRIT IS THE   perfect teacher .... and do not want to teach anyone to listen to me , but    believe His Word  with all your being    and  witness to Gods  glory though the Son  and sonship message    ..as to being gathered in Him  ,our safe haven  of rest and peace  from the world .


2For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

3Now if we put the bits into the horses' mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well....

2 Chronicles 6:36
"When they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to a land far away or near;

Psalm 39:1
For the director of music. For Jeduthun. A psalm of David. I said, "I will watch my ways and keep my tongue from sin; I will put a muzzle on my mouth while in the presence of the wicked."

Proverbs 10:19
Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues.

Proverbs 13:3
Those who guard their lips preserve their lives, but those who speak rashly will come to ruin.

Proverbs 21:23
Those who guard their mouths and their tongues keep themselves from calamity.

Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

James 1:4
Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

James 1:26
Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.



1 Kings 8:46 If they sin against you, (for there is no man that sins not,) and ...

2 Chronicles 6:36 If they sin against you, (for there is no man which sins not,) and ...

Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth, that does good, and sins not.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are ...

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    I believe with all my heart we are all dealing with  our own man of sin in us as well as others man of sin [Romans 7]    and 8   our victory  can only be won in ONE  BEING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST    ..   ONE IS THE PRIZE /REWARD  OUR BLESSED LORD JESUS CHRIST , THE CHRIST IN YOU IS YOUR EVERYTHING  .
 

and the man of sin is still a problem in me and I know it ,so I am not saved  fully , but have faith  in Gods will ,  I will be  complete in Christ one day   


  I think the meaning is we are not totally saved till the fulness of Christ is complete in us   and that   is  in  His own perfecting   work in us
  we are  all His work  in the process and progress  of His GLORY   to be revealed

The truth is a beginning   and end and it is all  found in the Alpha and Omega beginning   and end   , He is faithful as promised by the Father

[ed]

It looks like a good article.

I got bored quickly and started looking for things that interested me on the site.  Found some very nice resources.

To add to eaglesway's point.

Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I've learned to say what the Bible says about myself, and that makes a big difference.  I am complete in Him, I am risen with Him, He has made me alive!

I'm never called a sinner in the Bible.  The Bible says that all sin, and sin is always with us, but I will not call myself a sinner.  I am humbled by the fact that I fall short every day, but I won't let that be an excuse  continue to fall short(miss the mark).  There are times that I hit the target of love spot on through Christ that strengthens me.  If I can do it once, I can do it twice; If I can get in the habit of love......the perfect way......I show the image of Christ in my life and not the sin.

That is truly the awesomeness of our relationship to the perfect man Jesus Christ who sinned not. That is what it means to be "in Christ" with Christ is in us.  I'm not a beaten up sinner waiting for a future salvation, I am a strengthened believer walking in Christ now and there is not a doctrine that can take that salvation away................

Colossians 2
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

[rosered]

 

Hi ed so are you saying you are in the first resurrection   which is Christ death ?

I love that !!!   I love the scriptures   you proved too !!       I also know   for me  I am struggling still with   ''my man of sin ''  still , not as   often  as  it was in the beginning , but I would be a liar if I said I have no sin me   still  :sigh:


Satan Bound the Thousand Years
...5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.

This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

I do believe this is why the Lord said ,  Take up your cross and follow me   Matt16 24Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it....
  my old man of sin  wants to live  and tries to  quench the Spirit , I am learning to rest in Hope and grace and forgiveness , by  making amends and seeking to remain obedient   unto death     ,  this is my lot /measure  for now .

Sorry to disagree, being ol disagreeable me :o)

As many true things as there are in this article, I think there is an untrue vein running through the whole thing.

Quote
"And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)

Now, we're not denying that scripture. What we're saying is Christendom doesn't know what that scripture means! Indeed if you do call upon the name of the Lord, you shall be saved. Notice, it is in the future tense. It doesn't say you "have been" saved: if you believe you "have been already" saved. There is no scripture in the bible that says anybody has ever been saved while they were still alive. You know that? There is no such thing as "being saved" in the past tense, while you are still alive. There's a reason why Christ says, "They'll hate you and persecute you and everything, but he that endures until the END has "already been" saved....no, you endure to the end and then you "SHALL be saved." You are not saved, unless and until, we come up in the first resurrection. That is the only proof that anyone will have that they are saved, if you come up in the first resurrection. If you don't, then you are not saved; it's just axiomatic, if you don't come up in that resurrection

   You are not being disagreeable John

  Its just seems salvation , means   many  different  things to many people     and the process   of salvation

I find anyone can find that certain scripture    that explains their point  and what they  understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to     counter them
  I have seen this very thing so often .... and many  including myself try to explain      our position in Christ  salvation .
We may be saved from   those things but as new things arise    that  we must  overcome    them still   , it is by faith     that we are saved , it is a gift of God   .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured  or allotted . 



  Peter said this  1 peter 1     A Living Hope
...8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9obtaining as the outcome[end  result ]   of your faith the salvation of your souls.

10As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,


We are blessed this is    for certain
  and will not try to justify myself       If I am wrong I am wrong ...  so  please  forgive me   this .

[ed]

Hi ed so are you saying you are in the first resurrection   which is Christ death ?

Hi Rose,

I make no attempt to unravel the book of Revelation.  There is one teacher on that book that I like, I find his teachings to be in line with the spirituality that I have been practicing for years without the book of Revelation........I mostly ignored Revelation for over 30 years of spiritual practice.  I leave that book to J.P. Eby, and find his teachings from it to often be over the top outstanding, and in line with the present life in Christ here and now.


Oooops.......break is over, thanks for sharing on sin, I'll catch up later!

[Patinak]

   You are not being disagreeable John

  Its just seems salvation , means   many  different  things to many people     and the process   of salvation

I find anyone can find that certain scripture    that explains their point  and what they  understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to     counter them
  I have seen this very thing so often .... and many  including myself try to explain      our position in Christ  salvation .
We may be saved from   those things but as new things arise    that  we must  overcome    them still   , it is by faith     that we are saved , it is a gift of God  .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured  or allotted . 



:iagree:

[Shev]

One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.

[rosered]

  Thank you Ed and Pat for   your understanding 
  I am not in desiring  conflict   or debate   with any of my brothers or sisters in  Christ .

  I am simply    sharing my point of view  as to  how I could relate... and am sure the change of mind can occur    if God be willing .

  Ps ed I agree no one  can   , when it comes to Revelations ...   I have seen a few connections  in Ezekiel  :winkgrin:     but by no means understand    anything fully     

   spoken with   love in  Christ  to all    :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.

  Dear Shev  , I believe they are  trying to give God the glory and not make a name for themselves as Remnant  studies 
I found that   as  a blessing since it is the Holy Spirit   of truth  that gives any of us    anything .
This being only my perspective   of the site ...

God bless  :HeartThrob:

[ed]

One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.

I don't know who the writer is.



:dontknow:

[Shev]

One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.

  Dear Shev  , I believe they are  trying to give God the glory and not make a name for themselves as Remnant  studies 
I found that   as  a blessing since it is the Holy Spirit   of truth  that gives any of us    anything .
This being only my perspective   of the site ...

God bless  :HeartThrob:

Dear Rose,

Thank you, and I am not trying to bash them. I am just saying the composite style of article can confuse the two writers together. For instance, if part of an article of mine was combined with that of an ET teacher, and the difference was not made clear, one might read it and think I believe ET. So in this case, one of the two writers said "there is no salvation in the past tense," but we don't know which one it was. If one of them does not believe that, it is unfair to them, in my opinion. I am not sure if that makes sense.

God bless you too!  :dsunny:

[Seth]

 :iagree:

I think combining writers like that isn't right without their express permission.

[Dandelion]

I think we are saved when the 'battle' is over, and we have no more opportunity to be anything but with and in Christ, completely.

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41

2 Timothy 4:

...6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

[eaglesway]

   You are not being disagreeable John

  Its just seems salvation , means   many  different  things to many people     and the process   of salvation

I find anyone can find that certain scripture    that explains their point  and what they  understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to     counter them
  I have seen this very thing so often .... and many  including myself try to explain      our position in Christ  salvation .
We may be saved from   those things but as new things arise    that  we must  overcome    them still   , it is by faith     that we are saved , it is a gift of God  .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured  or allotted . 



:iagree:

The problem is the article does make a patently false statement to prove a dubious point. The other issues are used to prove this point.

So, if someone states in the forum as fact something that is not provable or is false, we require that they say- in my opinion, or I believe this or that.

If they circumvent that by posting it as an article, either the article must be removed or the statement questioned. Salvation may mean different things to different folks.....and certainly it does, but why post an article if it is not to be read, and if read, responded to.

The article makes many statements, some of which are true. I just mentioned one false statement- as that seems to be the core presentaion of the article.

Many of us kno what it is like to be on a sojourn, or to be out of sync with organized Christianity- but this does not prove the statement that there are no verses in the Bible that say we have been saved in a past tense or are saved in the present tense.

I could list a dozen, but that is a discourse that has been covered on the site several times I think :o)

If an article is written in an authoritative manner, rather than as "something to consider"- it is even more important that it be explored as to the content.

Since we have always accepted that the scriptures are the basis of discussion on TM, if a statement is made about the scriptures that is clearly innacurate, it needs to be noted. The article is not talking about "that certain verse"- it is setting a much wider scope, saying that there are no verses that express an alternate view.

[jabcat]

I think we are saved when the 'battle' is over, and we have no more opportunity to be anything but with and in Christ, completely.

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41

2 Timothy 4:

...6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Hi Dandelion.  I appreciate your posts, and IMO, to say we are "saved when the battle is over", does indeed cover one aspect of what  being saved is.  Elsewhere there is scripture that says Christ is ALREADY our righteousness  (I Cor. 1:30 Past and present tense both in this passage;  "God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin."   I understand Paul's comment of "crown of righteousness" having to do with his faithfulness and obedience, "good and faithful servant" - not that he was not already seated with Christ, His child sealed by the Holy Spirit against that day, or that God had not already considered him in right standing through the blood of Jesus applied in His life.

Many scriptures say those who have been given faith to believe on Jesus are already saved.  Now.  EW posted several scriptures showing that, and there are more.  "New creation, sitting with Him in heavenly places", etc.)  Ed even posted one that says a believer is COMPLETE in Christ.  I personally think that means, among other things, that when faith to believe is given and we're made a new creation/seated with Him in the heavenlies, then in God's eyes, He sees us through the blood of His Son applied to us, that it's done ("Jesus..the Finisher of our salvation") technically "outside of time", but still will be walked out daily "in time".   Sort of like "when God says it will be done, consider it done".

Then there are other scriptures that show that there is a continuing process of salvation (healing), often described in the scriptures as overcoming, growing in grace and knowledge, maturity, deliverance, running the race (again, obtaining crown of righteousness and other rewards). 

Then Paul says we will finally receive the redemption of our bodies (immortality).  We will be made perfect, no more tears no more pain.   Which to me, is the aspect your post covers. 

[jabcat]

I wonder why this has become an issue recently on the boards, the whole "saved" thing.  NOT specifically just your post Dandelion, I think you're contributing because it's already at issue.  But in general, is there something in the air, maybe influenced on one extreme by atheists perhaps, and on the other by folks like Unitarian Universalists/inclusionists, and many are getting caught up in the middle of those influences?  A sort of building tension in the air, causing many to question what they really do believe? 

I believe that "building tension" statement to be true, about various things..wonder if this is one of them.   :Chinscratch:

[jabcat]

Once again, I believe common ground can be found here - believe on Jesus as Savior, enjoy fellowship with Him, with His help and power working through us, follow Him in obedience and surrender.  Be honest and open with Him about our failures (agree with Him/confess), look to Him for deliverance.  And in our weaknesses, His grace is sufficient.   :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

I wonder why this has become an issue recently on the boards, the whole "saved" thing.  NOT specifically just your post Dandelion, I think you're contributing because it's already at issue.  But in general, is there something in the air, maybe influenced on one extreme by atheists perhaps, and on the other by folks like Unitarian Universalists/inclusionists, and many are getting caught up in the middle of those influences?  A sort of building tension in the air, causing many to question what they really do believe? 

I believe that "building tension" statement to be true, about various things..wonder if this is one of them.   :Chinscratch:

I think it is like waves :o)

I agree the common ground is obvious. The extremes at either end are "everybody is already saved" and "nobody is saved". Seems a lot of things are like that.

[Dandelion]

I wonder why this has become an issue recently on the boards, the whole "saved" thing.  NOT specifically just your post Dandelion, I think you're contributing because it's already at issue.

Yes, jabcat.  Perhaps it was better left unsaid.

I am comfortable with the site's definition.

Sorry if I added to the confusion.

[sheila]

it always helps me to simplify........the token sealed with/holy spirit as down payment[salvation work begun of Him in you] and

  promise/guarantee of assured salvation/deliverance from body of death[seperation from sin.]