http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article17_exodus_to_exile_pt1.html
:banana: :banana: :banana:
Good stuff :thumbsup:, can so relate , thanks so much for sharing it Watchman 1706 !!! :HeartThrob:
:dsunny:
Wow, that was long, and it took me a few, repeated sessions to finish to the end. Now I better understand my church exile for the past many years. This is too deep for words... :dsunny:
EDIT: What the essay says reminds me of the exile and journey in my own dream landscape, as written down in my story Impasse and Exit. Find it here if you care to read it - it all comes from the same Source, I believe.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/humor-poems-songs-movies/impasse-and-exit-(a-sort-of-story)/msg139233/#msg139233
Sorry to disagree, being ol disagreeable me :o)
As many true things as there are in this article, I think there is an untrue vein running through the whole thing.
Quote"And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)
Now, we're not denying that scripture. What we're saying is Christendom doesn't know what that scripture means! Indeed if you do call upon the name of the Lord, you shall be saved. Notice, it is in the future tense. It doesn't say you "have been" saved: if you believe you "have been already" saved. There is no scripture in the bible that says anybody has ever been saved while they were still alive. You know that? There is no such thing as "being saved" in the past tense, while you are still alive. There's a reason why Christ says, "They'll hate you and persecute you and everything, but he that endures until the END has "already been" saved....no, you endure to the end and then you "SHALL be saved." You are not saved, unless and until, we come up in the first resurrection. That is the only proof that anyone will have that they are saved, if you come up in the first resurrection. If you don't, then you are not saved; it's just axiomatic, if you don't come up in that resurrection
There are many verses in the bible that say we have been(past tense) saved, and are being(in this life -present tense) saved.
Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith
and are saved.1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who
are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those
who are being saved and those who are perishing.
Ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ even
when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—Altho there are many true things in the article about sojourn and pilgrimage and exodus, because those things are linked to an absolute declaration about the doctrine of salvation, I cannot be silent in objecting to this statement.
QUOTE -
There is no scripture in the bible that says anybody has ever been saved while they were still alive. It is true that we must remain faithful and believing.
It is true that it is not easy.
It is true that we must pick up His cross.
It is not true that there is no verse in scripture that says we have been(past tense) saved, or that we cannot experience salvation in this life.
I listed 6 verses. There are more. The article encourages us to receive the whole counsel of God. Then we are asked us to throw away the on-the-face meaning of Eph 2:7-10 and read it as if the other verses somehow change its core meaning. If the article was written in the tone of "things to ponder" it would be different.
True scriptural exegesis must incorporate all the scriptures. The scriptures do not contradict each other, they integrate in a proper context. Here are three statements,
each and all simultaneously represented by scripture.1)We have been saved by grace. 2)We are being saved in this grace in which we stand. 3)We will be saved if we stand faithful to the end.....
all true.To say the third statement invalidates the first or second is a incorrect, a contradiction against scripture, and
an undermines the confidence of little ones who rely on assurance to withstand the assault of accusation that comes day and night from the accuser of the brethren.Even while in a state of sojourn, were the Israelites His children? YES! Were they chosen out of the world to be separated unto God? YES! Were they saved? YES!
Isaiah 63:9 In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
"YES! THE HOLY SPIRIT SAYS!!!! ABBA FATHER! I have been saved. I rejoice in the hope of the glory of God because that is Christ in me- the hope pf glory."
Am I saying it is easy? No. Am I saying that I do not have to endure to the end? No.
Am I saying that we have already entered a blessed state? YES!
"He that believes in me has passed from death unto life"
Am I saying salvation is ours and all we must do is abide in Him for it to achieve its promised end? YES! Is that easy? NO! But it is still true.
It is not true, that there are no scriptures that say we have been saved past tense or present, and that is important, because if I give you a gallon of truth but insert a thimble of error that will rob many believers of their assurance, and the source of their strength to do the things they need to do and believe th things they need in order to endure to the end- this does not serve the gospel.
There are some wonderful things in this article- but the article CONFIRMS ITSELF based on a circular reasoning. The invalidation of that one statement punctures it. There are a large number of verses that testify to our present blessed salvation- as well as there are verses that testify to more salvation and sanctification as we abide in it.
In our zeal to "leave" traditional Christianity behind we cannot leave the scriptures behind.
The assurance of salvation does not make salvation easy. It does not void discipleship.
IT DOES MAKE US CHILDREN OF GOD. SAVED. ASSURED. CITIZENS OF THE KINGDOM THAT IS COMING.....and has already come IN US.
The message of sojourn and exodus does not negate the message of the new creation.
"If any man be in Christ Jesus He is a new creation". "Neither circumcision or uncircumcision is anything- but a new creation" That is what it means to be saved.
As you say, there are many good things in the article, but not sure why the author would take such a view on salvation, especially when there are many other scriptures to consider. :thumbsup:
Eaglesway :iagree:
Oh My , I am going to share my own perspective and hope it is without any offense , I shrink back in fear often and wait , but
I believe the ''confusion '' is that it is the Christ ''seed =Word of God '' in you that lives , is the main point brothers
Not so much our old selves that is not holy nor spiritual in nature , but earthly sensual and devilish , being very ''forceful '' and demanding and controlling
or even the ''wrong spirit '' in nature and have seen this very thing over the years at Tenmakers ...
Paul said in several places also when sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with new ''ears'' it is Life to you , but death to us ..
2Corh 4 Treasures in Jars of Clay :dsunny:
...11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
We know this means being Spiritual in nature ,, and allowing the Spirit to move and breath without killing it . by the smothering of the flesh works in all of us
it is the same crucifying Christ for sin , the saving grace of sacrificing the innocent blood for the guilty , the life is in the INNOCENT BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST , it is the offering of grace as pouring yourself out as a drink offering , unless you eat His body and drink his blood , you will never have His LIFE IN YOU [ this is discerning the body of Christ ] and those gathered in Him ..
12So death works in us, but life in you.
13But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,...
We learn to trust Gods Spirit and have it provide for us , exactly as Jesus done [ His Spirit is totally dependant on the Father for everything ...
the works, the words , the Life and even life back from the dead as ''resurrection'' NEW AND PERFECT LIFE , the Father giving Him power over all things at the point of being the PERFECT SON back from the dead as Salvation being delivered from death our main example and , We SEE JESUS AS THE PERFECT COME death did not hold Him ...
, and have many examples of this from Saul to Paul repurposed same lump etc .
This is the better resurrection that Paul speaks of in Hebrews 11 Those all died in Faith , this faith made it possible to please God not having the Christ Spirit nor seed in them and yet waited patiently for God to in the fulness of times send the Lord Jesus Christ to finish the work promised from the beginning , THEY ARE RAISED NOW AND APART OF THE CITY OF GOD '' THE NEW JERUSALEM '' coming down out of heaven that rest on us[remain in quiet strength of Holy Spirit ALIVE and active in us ] and of the HOLY SPIRIT ''Great Cloud of witnesses with Christ in His return [Acts 1] His Spirit is poured out on all flesh
making Acts 2 "And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) not very far away from anyone of us [ Acts 17]
Great Examples of Faith
11 Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. 2 Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation.
3 By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
4 It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel's offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith.
5 It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—"he disappeared, because God took him." For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. 6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.
7 It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. 9 And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. 10 Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.
11 It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. 12 And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them.
13 All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. 14 Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. 15 If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. 16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17 It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God's promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, 18 even though God had told him, "Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted." 19 Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead.
20 It was by faith that Isaac promised blessings for the future to his sons, Jacob and Esau.
21 It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff.
22 It was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, said confidently that the people of Israel would leave Egypt. He even commanded them to take his bones with them when they left.
23 It was by faith that Moses' parents hid him for three months when he was born. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king's command.
24 It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter.
25 He chose to share the oppression of God's people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of Christ than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his great reward.
27 It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king's anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. 28 It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons.
29 It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned.
30 It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down.
31 It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
32 How much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets.
33 By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. 35 Women received their loved ones back again from death.
But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. 36 Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. 37 Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. 38 They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.
39 All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. 40 For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.
They have when Jesus said it is finished !! I have done the work you sent me to do and that was to destroy death[last enemy ] and the works of the devil
and cut it short in righteousness ,, He gave Himself over to death and destroyed it , by the FATHERS DESIRE /WILL so we can LIVE to Him for Him and in Him and Him in us ..
I hope this is not offensive to anyone , it seems right now the whole world is offended over words , and flags and symbols , such things as to cause divisions .
But Jesus told us Blessed is He who is NOT offended because of Me , the SPIRIT &TRUTH shall set us free
I am still here for Jesus Christ sake as I hope this is the very reason any one of us are her at the Tentmaker .
we are to leave the church of Babylon behind us unless we partake of the same plagues and judgments as Her ''teachings ''.
Luke 7:23
Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me."
John 6:61
Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you?
John 16:1
"All this I have told you so that you will not fall away.
Taming the Tongue
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
I am one sincere believer that the HOLY SPIRIT IS THE perfect teacher .... and do not want to teach anyone to listen to me , but believe His Word with all your being and witness to Gods glory though the Son and sonship message ..as to being gathered in Him ,our safe haven of rest and peace from the world .
2For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.
3Now if we put the bits into the horses' mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well....
2 Chronicles 6:36
"When they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to a land far away or near;
Psalm 39:1
For the director of music. For Jeduthun. A psalm of David. I said, "I will watch my ways and keep my tongue from sin; I will put a muzzle on my mouth while in the presence of the wicked."
Proverbs 10:19
Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues.
Proverbs 13:3
Those who guard their lips preserve their lives, but those who speak rashly will come to ruin.
Proverbs 21:23
Those who guard their mouths and their tongues keep themselves from calamity.
Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
James 1:4
Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
James 1:26
Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
1 Kings 8:46 If they sin against you, (for there is no man that sins not,) and ...
2 Chronicles 6:36 If they sin against you, (for there is no man which sins not,) and ...
Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth, that does good, and sins not.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are ...
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
I believe with all my heart we are all dealing with our own man of sin in us as well as others man of sin [Romans 7] and 8 our victory can only be won in ONE BEING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST .. ONE IS THE PRIZE /REWARD OUR BLESSED LORD JESUS CHRIST , THE CHRIST IN YOU IS YOUR EVERYTHING .
and the man of sin is still a problem in me and I know it ,so I am not saved fully , but have faith in Gods will , I will be complete in Christ one day
I think the meaning is we are not totally saved till the fulness of Christ is complete in us and that is in His own perfecting work in us
we are all His work in the process and progress of His GLORY to be revealed
The truth is a beginning and end and it is all found in the Alpha and Omega beginning and end , He is faithful as promised by the Father
It looks like a good article.
I got bored quickly and started looking for things that interested me on the site. Found some very nice resources.
To add to eaglesway's point.
Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
I've learned to say what the Bible says about myself, and that makes a big difference. I am complete in Him, I am risen with Him, He has made me alive!
I'm never called a sinner in the Bible. The Bible says that all sin, and sin is always with us, but I will not call myself a sinner. I am humbled by the fact that I fall short every day, but I won't let that be an excuse continue to fall short(miss the mark). There are times that I hit the target of love spot on through Christ that strengthens me. If I can do it once, I can do it twice; If I can get in the habit of love......the perfect way......I show the image of Christ in my life and not the sin.
That is truly the awesomeness of our relationship to the perfect man Jesus Christ who sinned not. That is what it means to be "in Christ" with Christ is in us. I'm not a beaten up sinner waiting for a future salvation, I am a strengthened believer walking in Christ now and there is not a doctrine that can take that salvation away................
Colossians 2
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Hi ed so are you saying you are in the first resurrection which is Christ death ?
I love that !!! I love the scriptures you proved too !! I also know for me I am struggling still with ''my man of sin '' still , not as often as it was in the beginning , but I would be a liar if I said I have no sin me still :sigh:
Satan Bound the Thousand Years
...5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is the
one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
I do believe this is why the Lord said , Take up your cross and follow me Matt16 24Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever
wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it....
my old man of sin wants to live and tries to quench the Spirit , I am learning to rest in Hope and grace and forgiveness , by making amends and seeking to remain obedient unto death , this is my lot /measure for now .
QuoteSorry to disagree, being ol disagreeable me :o)
As many true things as there are in this article, I think there is an untrue vein running through the whole thing.
Quote
"And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)
Now, we're not denying that scripture. What we're saying is Christendom doesn't know what that scripture means! Indeed if you do call upon the name of the Lord, you shall be saved. Notice, it is in the future tense. It doesn't say you "have been" saved: if you believe you "have been already" saved. There is no scripture in the bible that says anybody has ever been saved while they were still alive. You know that? There is no such thing as "being saved" in the past tense, while you are still alive. There's a reason why Christ says, "They'll hate you and persecute you and everything, but he that endures until the END has "already been" saved....no, you endure to the end and then you "SHALL be saved." You are not saved, unless and until, we come up in the first resurrection. That is the only proof that anyone will have that they are saved, if you come up in the first resurrection. If you don't, then you are not saved; it's just axiomatic, if you don't come up in that resurrection
You are not being disagreeable John
Its just seems salvation , means many different things to many people and
the process of salvation I find anyone can find that certain scripture that explains their point and what they understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to counter them
I have seen this very thing so often .... and many including myself try to explain our position in Christ salvation .
We may be saved from those things but as new things arise that we must overcome them still , it is by faith that we are saved , it is a gift of God .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured or allotted .
Peter said this 1 peter 1 A Living Hope
...8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now,
but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9obtaining as the outcome[end result ] of your faith the salvation of your souls. 10
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,We are blessed this is for certain
and will not try to justify myself If I am wrong I am wrong ... so please forgive me this .
Quote from: rosered on July 08, 2015, 04:20:28 PM
Hi ed so are you saying you are in the first resurrection which is Christ death ?
Hi Rose,
I make no attempt to unravel the book of Revelation. There is one teacher on that book that I like, I find his teachings to be in line with the spirituality that I have been practicing for years without the book of Revelation........I mostly ignored Revelation for over 30 years of spiritual practice. I leave that book to J.P. Eby, and find his teachings from it to often be over the top outstanding, and in line with the present life in Christ here and now.
Oooops.......break is over, thanks for sharing on sin, I'll catch up later!
Quote from: rosered on July 08, 2015, 04:20:28 PM
You are not being disagreeable John
Its just seems salvation , means many different things to many people and the process of salvation
I find anyone can find that certain scripture that explains their point and what they understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to counter them
I have seen this very thing so often .... and many including myself try to explain our position in Christ salvation .
We may be saved from those things but as new things arise that we must overcome them still , it is by faith that we are saved , it is a gift of God .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured or allotted .
:iagree:
One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.
Thank you Ed and Pat for your understanding
I am not in desiring conflict or debate with any of my brothers or sisters in Christ .
I am simply sharing my point of view as to how I could relate... and am sure the change of mind can occur if God be willing .
Ps ed I agree no one can , when it comes to Revelations ... I have seen a few connections in Ezekiel :winkgrin: but by no means understand anything fully
spoken with love in Christ to all :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Shev on July 08, 2015, 10:23:07 PM
One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.
Dear Shev , I believe they are trying to give God the glory and not make a name for themselves as
Remnant studies I found that as a blessing since it is the Holy Spirit of truth that gives any of us anything .
This being only my perspective of the site ...
God bless :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Shev on July 08, 2015, 10:23:07 PM
One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.
I don't know who the writer is.
:dontknow:
Quote from: rosered on July 08, 2015, 11:20:15 PM
Quote from: Shev on July 08, 2015, 10:23:07 PM
One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.
Dear Shev , I believe they are trying to give God the glory and not make a name for themselves as Remnant studies
I found that as a blessing since it is the Holy Spirit of truth that gives any of us anything .
This being only my perspective of the site ...
God bless :HeartThrob:
Dear Rose,
Thank you, and I am not trying to bash them. I am just saying the composite style of article can confuse the two writers together. For instance, if part of an article of mine was combined with that of an ET teacher, and the difference was not made clear, one might read it and think I believe ET. So in this case, one of the two writers said "there is no salvation in the past tense," but we don't know which one it was. If one of them does not believe that, it is unfair to them, in my opinion. I am not sure if that makes sense.
God bless you too! :dsunny:
:iagree:
I think combining writers like that isn't right without their express permission.
I think we are saved when the 'battle' is over, and we have no more opportunity to be anything but with and in Christ, completely.
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41
2 Timothy 4:
...6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Quote from: Patinak on July 08, 2015, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: rosered on July 08, 2015, 04:20:28 PM
You are not being disagreeable John
Its just seems salvation , means many different things to many people and the process of salvation
I find anyone can find that certain scripture that explains their point and what they understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to counter them
I have seen this very thing so often .... and many including myself try to explain our position in Christ salvation .
We may be saved from those things but as new things arise that we must overcome them still , it is by faith that we are saved , it is a gift of God .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured or allotted .
:iagree:
The problem is the article does make a patently false statement to prove a dubious point. The other issues are used to prove this point.
So, if someone states in the forum as fact something that is not provable or is false, we require that they say- in my opinion, or I believe this or that.
If they circumvent that by posting it as an article, either the article must be removed or the statement questioned. Salvation may mean different things to different folks.....and certainly it does, but why post an article if it is not to be read, and if read, responded to.
The article makes many statements, some of which are true. I just mentioned one false statement- as that seems to be the core presentaion of the article.
Many of us kno what it is like to be on a sojourn, or to be out of sync with organized Christianity- but this does not prove the statement that there are no verses in the Bible that say we have been saved in a past tense or are saved in the present tense.
I could list a dozen, but that is a discourse that has been covered on the site several times I think :o)
If an article is written in an authoritative manner, rather than as "something to consider"- it is even more important that it be explored as to the content.
Since we have always accepted that the scriptures are the basis of discussion on TM, if a statement is made about the scriptures that is clearly innacurate, it needs to be noted. The article is not talking about "that certain verse"- it is setting a much wider scope, saying that there are no verses that express an alternate view.
Quote from: Dandelion on July 09, 2015, 04:49:20 AM
I think we are saved when the 'battle' is over, and we have no more opportunity to be anything but with and in Christ, completely.
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41
2 Timothy 4:
...6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Hi Dandelion. I appreciate your posts, and IMO, to say we are "saved when the battle is over", does indeed cover one aspect of what being saved is. Elsewhere there is scripture that says Christ is ALREADY our righteousness (I Cor. 1:30 Past and present tense both in this passage; "God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin." I understand Paul's comment of "crown of righteousness" having to do with his faithfulness and obedience, "good and faithful servant" - not that he was not already seated with Christ, His child sealed by the Holy Spirit against that day, or that God had not already considered him in right standing through the blood of Jesus applied in His life.
Many scriptures say those who have been given faith to believe on Jesus are already saved. Now. EW posted several scriptures showing that, and there are more. "New creation, sitting with Him in heavenly places", etc.) Ed even posted one that says a believer is COMPLETE in Christ. I personally think that means, among other things, that when faith to believe is given and we're made a new creation/seated with Him in the heavenlies, then in God's eyes, He sees us through the blood of His Son applied to us, that it's done ("Jesus..the Finisher of our salvation") technically "outside of time", but still will be walked out daily "in time". Sort of like "when God says it will be done, consider it done".
Then there are other scriptures that show that there is a continuing process of salvation (healing), often described in the scriptures as overcoming, growing in grace and knowledge, maturity, deliverance, running the race (again, obtaining crown of righteousness and other rewards).
Then Paul says we will finally receive the redemption of our bodies (immortality). We will be made perfect, no more tears no more pain. Which to me, is the aspect your post covers.
I wonder why this has become an issue recently on the boards, the whole "saved" thing. NOT specifically just your post Dandelion, I think you're contributing because it's already at issue. But in general, is there something in the air, maybe influenced on one extreme by atheists perhaps, and on the other by folks like Unitarian Universalists/inclusionists, and many are getting caught up in the middle of those influences? A sort of building tension in the air, causing many to question what they really do believe?
I believe that "building tension" statement to be true, about various things..wonder if this is one of them. :Chinscratch:
Once again, I believe common ground can be found here - believe on Jesus as Savior, enjoy fellowship with Him, with His help and power working through us, follow Him in obedience and surrender. Be honest and open with Him about our failures (agree with Him/confess), look to Him for deliverance. And in our weaknesses, His grace is sufficient. :dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on July 09, 2015, 05:37:29 AM
I wonder why this has become an issue recently on the boards, the whole "saved" thing. NOT specifically just your post Dandelion, I think you're contributing because it's already at issue. But in general, is there something in the air, maybe influenced on one extreme by atheists perhaps, and on the other by folks like Unitarian Universalists/inclusionists, and many are getting caught up in the middle of those influences? A sort of building tension in the air, causing many to question what they really do believe?
I believe that "building tension" statement to be true, about various things..wonder if this is one of them. :Chinscratch:
I think it is like waves :o)
I agree the common ground is obvious. The extremes at either end are "everybody is already saved" and "nobody is saved". Seems a lot of things are like that.
Quote from: jabcat on July 09, 2015, 05:37:29 AM
I wonder why this has become an issue recently on the boards, the whole "saved" thing. NOT specifically just your post Dandelion, I think you're contributing because it's already at issue.
Yes, jabcat. Perhaps it was better left unsaid.
I am comfortable with the site's definition.
Sorry if I added to the confusion.
it always helps me to simplify........the token sealed with/holy spirit as down payment[salvation work begun of Him in you] and
promise/guarantee of assured salvation/deliverance from body of death[seperation from sin.]
Quote from: jabcat on July 09, 2015, 05:56:08 AM
Once again, I believe common ground can be found here - believe on Jesus as Savior, enjoy fellowship with Him, with His help and power working through us, follow Him in obedience and surrender. Be honest and open with Him about our failures (agree with Him/confess), look to Him for deliverance. And in our weaknesses, His grace is sufficient. :dsunny:
Quote from: Dandelion on July 09, 2015, 06:06:56 AM
I am comfortable with the site's definition.
Quote from: sheila on July 09, 2015, 06:31:30 AM
it always helps me to simplify........the token sealed with/holy spirit as down payment[salvation work begun of Him in you] and
promise/guarantee of assured salvation/deliverance from body of death[seperation from sin.]
:2thumbs:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 09, 2015, 04:51:34 AM
Quote from: Patinak on July 08, 2015, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: rosered on July 08, 2015, 04:20:28 PM
You are not being disagreeable John
Its just seems salvation , means many different things to many people and the process of salvation
I find anyone can find that certain scripture that explains their point and what they understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to counter them
I have seen this very thing so often .... and many including myself try to explain our position in Christ salvation .
We may be saved from those things but as new things arise that we must overcome them still , it is by faith that we are saved , it is a gift of God .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured or allotted .
:iagree:
The problem is the article does make a patently false statement to prove a dubious point. The other issues are used to prove this point.
So, if someone states in the forum as fact something that is not provable or is false, we require that they say- in my opinion, or I believe this or that.
If they circumvent that by posting it as an article, either the article must be removed or the statement questioned. Salvation may mean different things to different folks.....and certainly it does, but why post an article if it is not to be read, and if read, responded to.
The article makes many statements, some of which are true. I just mentioned one false statement- as that seems to be the core presentaion of the article.
Many of us kno what it is like to be on a sojourn, or to be out of sync with organized Christianity- but this does not prove the statement that there are no verses in the Bible that say we have been saved in a past tense or are saved in the present tense.
I could list a dozen, but that is a discourse that has been covered on the site several times I think :o)
If an article is written in an authoritative manner, rather than as "something to consider"- it is even more important that it be explored as to the content.
Since we have always accepted that the scriptures are the basis of discussion on TM, if a statement is made about the scriptures that is clearly innacurate, it needs to be noted. The article is not talking about "that certain verse"- it is setting a much wider scope, saying that there are no verses that express an alternate view.
John, did you mean to reply to my reply to Rose?
Pat
I think it is quite helpful to discuss the issue of 'saved' and what the word means. When I first came to the forum five years ago I thought saved was from hell (I had just escaped that thinking). But I didn't understand what I was saved from. I know I'm slow and it's taken a long time to get to where I have an understanding that satisfies me even though it is different some than what others here seem to see.
Having an experience that made me see that God had accepted me just like I am felt like a salvation experience to me but if not from hell, saved from what? Now I see we are being saved from sin but are not there yet so the future salvation is when we are free of sin. So far this is what makes sense to me as far as present and future salvation is about.
Gal 1:4 "who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"
I think this applies to everyone whether they know it or not since Jesus didn't die just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. Most people don't know what a pickle they would be in if it hadn't been for that sacrifice and of course I don't understand it all either but I accept the fact that we needed rescuing from the present evil age, and the sacrifice Jesus made did just that.
When I first came to understand UR it was so refreshing to see the wall between 'them' and 'us' come down in my mind. So even though there has to be a starting point for everyone to begin a spiritual walk, I can accept that everyone has the same Father in heaven as I do who brought is all into this world and has made Himself responsible for all his children like a good father would. And I love Him for it. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: bushy on July 09, 2015, 10:51:22 AM
I think it is quite helpful to discuss the issue of 'saved' and what the word means. When I first came to the forum five years ago I thought saved was from hell (I had just escaped that thinking). But I didn't understand what I was saved from. I know I'm slow and it's taken a long time to get to where I have an understanding that satisfies me even though it is different some than what others here seem to see.
Having an experience that made me see that God had accepted me just like I am felt like a salvation experience to me but if not from hell, saved from what? Now I see we are being saved from sin but are not there yet so the future salvation is when we are free of sin. So far this is what makes sense to me as far as present and future salvation is about.
Gal 1:4 "who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"
I think this applies to everyone whether they know it or not since Jesus didn't die just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. Most people don't know what a pickle they would be in if it hadn't been for that sacrifice and of course I don't understand it all either but I accept the fact that we needed rescuing from the present evil age, and the sacrifice Jesus made did just that.
When I first came to understand UR it was so refreshing to see the wall between 'them' and 'us' come down in my mind. So even though there has to be a starting point for everyone to begin a spiritual walk, I can accept that everyone has the same Father in heaven as I do who brought is all into this world and has made Himself responsible for all his children like a good father would. And I love Him for it. :HeartThrob:
Great post :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 09, 2015, 04:51:34 AM
Quote from: Patinak on July 08, 2015, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: rosered on July 08, 2015, 04:20:28 PM
You are not being disagreeable John
Its just seems salvation , means many different things to many people and the process of salvation
I find anyone can find that certain scripture that explains their point and what they understand the way they do and yet you can always find another that seems to counter them
I have seen this very thing so often .... and many including myself try to explain our position in Christ salvation .
We may be saved from those things but as new things arise that we must overcome them still , it is by faith that we are saved , it is a gift of God .
Especially if God permits we can grow in truth and grace .. as we are measured or allotted .
:iagree:
The problem is the article does make a patently false statement to prove a dubious point. The other issues are used to prove this point.
So, if someone states in the forum as fact something that is not provable or is false, we require that they say- in my opinion, or I believe this or that.
If they circumvent that by posting it as an article, either the article must be removed or the statement questioned. Salvation may mean different things to different folks.....and certainly it does, but why post an article if it is not to be read, and if read, responded to.
The article makes many statements, some of which are true. I just mentioned one false statement- as that seems to be the core presentaion of the article.
Many of us kno what it is like to be on a sojourn, or to be out of sync with organized Christianity- but this does not prove the statement that there are no verses in the Bible that say we have been saved in a past tense or are saved in the present tense.
I could list a dozen, but that is a discourse that has been covered on the site several times I think :o)
If an article is written in an authoritative manner, rather than as "something to consider"- it is even more important that it be explored as to the content.
Since we have always accepted that the scriptures are the basis of discussion on TM, if a statement is made about the scriptures that is clearly innacurate, it needs to be noted. The article is not talking about "that certain verse"- it is setting a much wider scope, saying that there are no verses that express an alternate view.
John, did you mean to reply to my reply to Rose?
Pat
Hi Pat perhaps me , I would say and maybe your agreement
I agree with Johns point of view in the sense of speaking with authority in the article ,as end all and undisputed truth .
and lacking the grace of saying ," As I see it "or " My own point of view ."
I saw it was Ray Smith . by chance on page 6
I have to be perfectly honest , I hardly ever read articles and its 37 pages long :eek: and did not read the whole thing ..
I do believe in my heart God deals with us all individually and when Jesus said , some will receive 30 fold and some 60 fold and some 100 fold in this life and eternal life in the next age , speaking about the very hearts of mankind , and to me Jesus is speaking about the seed of faith planted in the hearts as the Word of God being the incorruptible seed of Christ .. and how the meek shall inherit the earth , those without much "earth" are heard hearted and the seed dies in us
These are the things I could relate to in searching for God and seeking salvation though Jesus Christ whom is the Resurrection and the Life I do not see anything outside of Jesus Christ that has Life in them that the Bible teaches us what is truth and it is a now thing , being our salvation is neaerer than we first believed ..
we are in the process of being saved from a wicked and adulterous generation as Bushy so graciously posted .
and Shelia as we are being saved from the law of sin and death
Salvation being "healed from sin sickness unto death and sleep being sadness with" no hope" as the world sees it and drunkenness of the wine of the wrath of God , that Babylon is promised .
FAITH , HOPE AND LOVE are the 3 things that remain in Christ as Paul preached , to Love and know your loved is being secure , there is nothing more frightening that those feeling of darkness , insecurity and emptiness and lack inside you not knowing salvation .
and the world that lies in wickedness 1 John 5 ...18 We know that no one who is born of God sins;
but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
20And we know that the
Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true;
and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life....
Jesus Christ Life is in us , because His Spirit of obedience to the Fathers Spirit are as ONE and totally agree with no divisions
He is the faithful One who keeps us and being hid in Christ is our hope that we might walk in newness of Life by the Holy Spirit of truth
LOVE being the greatest thing possible to inherit in Knowing the Father though the Son and being a part of this so great a salvation
Hebrews 2 Pay Attention to Salvation
...2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. :HeartThrob:
It is not that there is disagreement that all will be saved but the manner in which all will be saved, or for some are already saved, can represent a 180 difference in how one approaches sin. I think is why Gary wrote an article on the dangers of the Carlton Pearson understanding. He thought that such an expression of universalism warranted some kind of warning and clarification.
That way of thinking about universalism is so influential, it's probably going continue to be an issue from time to time.
Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2015, 04:58:34 PM
It is not that there is disagreement that all will be saved but the manner in which all will be saved, or for some are already saved, can represent a 180 difference in how one approaches sin. I think is why Gary wrote an article on the dangers of the Carlton Pearson understanding. He thought that such an expression of universalism warranted some kind of warning and clarification.
That way of thinking about universalism is so influential, it's probably going continue to be an issue from time to time.
I do believe you have hit the nail on the head Seth :dsunny:
The extremes between the two , James was speaking of earlier and some how the balance of UR not being what is the name of the anything goes religion , that is not what UR stands for ..
and a friend of the world is an enemy against God !!
Many think it is a free pass to ''do whatever you want '' and still be
SAVED It sure does
NOT work like that ...
:iagree: Rose
Quote from: Shev on July 08, 2015, 10:23:07 PM
One thing I don't like about this form of article is that it is a composite of more than one writer - L. Ray Smith and Preston Eby, I believe. Though they are referenced at the bottom, they are going to be "tarred with the same brush" of anything the other writes, as the article does not make clear who wrote what. I think this is rather unfair to both writers.
:iagree:
Quote from: rosered on July 09, 2015, 05:24:10 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2015, 04:58:34 PM
It is not that there is disagreement that all will be saved but the manner in which all will be saved, or for some are already saved, can represent a 180 difference in how one approaches sin. I think is why Gary wrote an article on the dangers of the Carlton Pearson understanding. He thought that such an expression of universalism warranted some kind of warning and clarification.
That way of thinking about universalism is so influential, it's probably going continue to be an issue from time to time.
I do believe you have hit the nail on the head Seth :dsunny:
The extremes between the two , James was speaking of earlier and some how the balance of UR not being what is the name of the anything goes religion , that is not what UR stands for ..
and a friend of the world is an enemy against God !!
Many think it is a free pass to "do whatever you want " and still be SAVED
It sure does NOT work like that ...
Their were people who taught this in Pauls day. There will always be people who teach this. It is a common heresy, not just among UR believers.
This is one of the things I was trying to say in the forum issues thread. We tend to make these issues connected to UR, but really, all Christendom is arguing over these same issues, UR, ET, ED- among all groups there are those who teach grace as a license to sin.
The answer is not to change the fundamental teaching of salvation in response. There is no protection against such a deception other than to proclaim, and live, the truth.
It is for this reason we are told to exhort the brethren to love and good works and warn the wicked from his way.
The question I have about that is when say let's not change the fundamental teaching. If we go by what we see in scripture we can't change the fundamental teaching, but it might disagree with what the orthodoxy has taught in some key areas and that might cause discomfort with them. The doctrine of hell is a fundamental point with ER. We've already changed that because we see that it's not in scripture, and it makes them uncomfortable.
When I accepted that everyone would be saved, my immediate next thought was saved from what and whether or not it's a process or whether everyone is already saved. I'd wager to guess that seekers who come to this forum are also looking for answers on that and that is probably why it comes in waves and probably will continue to.
Quote from: Patinak on July 09, 2015, 11:17:35 AM
Quote from: bushy on July 09, 2015, 10:51:22 AM
I think it is quite helpful to discuss the issue of 'saved' and what the word means. When I first came to the forum five years ago I thought saved was from hell (I had just escaped that thinking). But I didn't understand what I was saved from. I know I'm slow and it's taken a long time to get to where I have an understanding that satisfies me even though it is different some than what others here seem to see.
Having an experience that made me see that God had accepted me just like I am felt like a salvation experience to me but if not from hell, saved from what? Now I see we are being saved from sin but are not there yet so the future salvation is when we are free of sin. So far this is what makes sense to me as far as present and future salvation is about.
Gal 1:4 "who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"
I think this applies to everyone whether they know it or not since Jesus didn't die just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. Most people don't know what a pickle they would be in if it hadn't been for that sacrifice and of course I don't understand it all either but I accept the fact that we needed rescuing from the present evil age, and the sacrifice Jesus made did just that.
When I first came to understand UR it was so refreshing to see the wall between 'them' and 'us' come down in my mind. So even though there has to be a starting point for everyone to begin a spiritual walk, I can accept that everyone has the same Father in heaven as I do who brought is all into this world and has made Himself responsible for all his children like a good father would. And I love Him for it. :HeartThrob:
Great post :thumbsup:
I understand what you are saying and I agree with your definition of what we are saved from. I dont agree that everyone has been saved from it. I do agree everyone will be saved from it, that the provision has been made and is open to all.
IMO, The wall between "us" and "them" is taken down by love, if we walk in the spirit- but there is in the language of Jesus and the apostles- a call to be "saved" regardless of how we define it- what reason for the attention paid to it in the preaching of Jesus and the apostles if all already have it?
It is beautiful and freeing to see that God will save all, and each of us must walk out the "word of reconciliation" and "the ministry of reconciliation" as we feel led.
But we are also called to suffer for the testimony of Jesus Christ and I think Paul makes it clear there are adversaries hostile of mind and heart who will never escape their condition until they repent- "among them we too all once walked", "and such were some of you", "everyknee shall bow"
No service is done for them by simply ackowledging that they are already saved- because everyone will have to, at some point, come across the threshhold of repentence- that self knowledge and change of heart and embracing of God's love that the gospel brings.
We are called to testify to this. God loves them, but many of them will hate us, even as we love them, because of the gospel- according to Jesus.
The idea that we ought not tell men of their estate and need for Jesus Christ in order to escape it into a better estate, the kingdom of God, is an error imo.
I wonder is it that we dont want to be persecuted for the sake of the gospel?
Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2015, 07:24:52 PM
The question I have about that is when say let's not change the fundamental teaching. If we go by what we see in scripture we can't change the fundamental teaching, but it might disagree with what the orthodoxy has taught in some key areas and that might cause discomfort with them. The doctrine of hell is a fundamental point with ER. We've already changed that because we see that it's not in scripture, and it makes them uncomfortable.
When I accepted that everyone would be saved, my immediate next thought was saved from what and whether or not it's a process or whether everyone is already saved. I'd wager to guess that seekers who come to this forum are also looking for answers on that and that is probably why it comes in waves and probably will continue to.
And those are all good thoughts, because when we realize that we are not saved from hell in is logical to re-examne the issue. However, before I was convinced of UR, I already knew I was saved from sin. I already knew I was saved from "this perverse generation". I already knew about progessive salvation and the culmination of salvation.
These are not issues every ETr is ignorant of, and as a UR believer I STILL believe we are saved from wrath to come, just not eternal hell.
I should have said "fundamental teaching of scripture on salvation". I did not mean "orthodox" per say. That we have been saved, are being saved and will be saved is the fundamental teaching of the scriptures.
I think the waves are not necessarily from seekers into UR. They are just doctrinal issues people are divided over whether UR or not.
By waves I meant the same folks saying the same things contesting the same issues over and over.
:iagree:
I try to just link to the hashed out thread to avoid that.
Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2015, 07:56:12 PM
:iagree:
I try to just link to the hashed out thread to avoid that.
:thumbsup:
I also think it is perfectly acceptable to leave issues unresolved and turn the discussion back towards the salvation of all, by simply saying,
"I rejoice that all will eventually be reconciled to God, and that God will become all in all, as every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father... and I rejoice that we all share in that vision"
Quote from: eaglesway on July 09, 2015, 07:39:10 PM
Quote from: Patinak on July 09, 2015, 11:17:35 AM
Quote from: bushy on July 09, 2015, 10:51:22 AM
I think it is quite helpful to discuss the issue of 'saved' and what the word means. When I first came to the forum five years ago I thought saved was from hell (I had just escaped that thinking). But I didn't understand what I was saved from. I know I'm slow and it's taken a long time to get to where I have an understanding that satisfies me even though it is different some than what others here seem to see.
Having an experience that made me see that God had accepted me just like I am felt like a salvation experience to me but if not from hell, saved from what? Now I see we are being saved from sin but are not there yet so the future salvation is when we are free of sin. So far this is what makes sense to me as far as present and future salvation is about.
Gal 1:4 "who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"
I think this applies to everyone whether they know it or not since Jesus didn't die just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. Most people don't know what a pickle they would be in if it hadn't been for that sacrifice and of course I don't understand it all either but I accept the fact that we needed rescuing from the present evil age, and the sacrifice Jesus made did just that.
When I first came to understand UR it was so refreshing to see the wall between 'them' and 'us' come down in my mind. So even though there has to be a starting point for everyone to begin a spiritual walk, I can accept that everyone has the same Father in heaven as I do who brought is all into this world and has made Himself responsible for all his children like a good father would. And I love Him for it. :HeartThrob:
Great post :thumbsup:
I understand what you are saying and I agree with your definition of what we are saved from. I dont agree that everyone has been saved from it. I do agree everyone will be saved from it, that the provision has been made and is open to all.
IMO, The wall between "us" and "them" is taken down by love, if we walk in the spirit- but there is in the language of Jesus and the apostles- a call to be "saved" regardless of how we define it- what reason for the attention paid to it in the preaching of Jesus and the apostles if all already have it?
It is beautiful and freeing to see that God will save all, and each of us must walk out the "word of reconciliation" and "the ministry of reconciliation" as we feel led.
But we are also called to suffer for the testimony of Jesus Christ and I think Paul makes it clear there are adversaries hostile of mind and heart who will never escape their condition until they repent- "among them we too all once walked", "and such were some of you", "everyknee shall bow"
No service is done for them by simply ackowledging that they are already saved- because everyone will have to, at some point, come across the threshhold of repentence- that self knowledge and change of heart and embracing of God's love that the gospel brings.
We are called to testify to this. God loves them, but many of them will hate us, even as we love them, because of the gospel- according to Jesus.
The idea that we ought not tell men of their estate and need for Jesus Christ in order to escape it into a better estate, the kingdom of God, is an error imo.
I wonder is it that we dont want to be persecuted for the sake of the gospel?
Funny thing is that even though you disagree with some things I said, I agree with everything you said. :laugh: I'm not real good at including everything I would like to say.
But one question, what do you think being rescued from this evil age means and who does it include? If not everyone, did the sacrifice Jesus made benefit everyone whether they know it or not?
And just so you know, I am asking because I really respect your understanding of these things and not to argue.
Maybe it would be helpful to have a repository of secondary issues that have been discussed to death, but newbies come with the same question, you could direct them there, even just a single page with a list of topics. Not sure if something like that exists already?
Free will/sovereignty, trinity, salvation meaning, lake of fire, etc etc could all go into that repository and newbies coming onto the forum can be encouraged to go there and read up on these discussions before posting so as not to keep bringing it up over and over.
From what I am seeing that's a pattern. We have a long discussion about something, it gets resolved, then a newbie with the same question comes around and the whole topic picks back up again. Whereas if they had a spot to see all those discussions already laid out, it would encourage less of the same topic to come up over and over. Not to say that further discussion would outlawed, but the newbie could have it communicated that we want to avoid the continual wave of controversy that arises from these topics.
The only reason I post links to other, longer discussions is if I remember to bookmark them. It might be handy for you moderators to have them all in one place so that you could even PM the newbies and say, "please take a look at this discussion and see if it answers your question."
This happens in other forums all the time where they say "please make sure to check if your question has been answered elsewhere before asking."
I think a such repository is a good idea. we could make it as links posted in a thread titled "topic archive" or something like that.
List the topics and post a couple links to each one from past threads.
"I rejoice that all will eventually be reconciled to God, and that God will become all in all, as every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father... and I rejoice that we all share in that vision"
Yes, we can look at those ideas, thanks :thumbsup:
Interesting points and questions raised. A few thoughts; the scriptures say some the devil as their father, and that not all know God (some are "not of the faith" per Paul). In fact, many are enemies of God.
As far as Jesus' death benefiting all...I believe it opened the door to Life, but not all are given that Life in this age. I don't know why God chose that as His plan, and we might prefer or desire it some other way. But as I understand, that's what the scriptures declare. The "elect" in this age, through no worth of their own but of God's mercy, and then the rest enter the Door into Life later, in the next age.
I believe that's why believers in this age are given the word of reconciliation. The scriptures show how that happens.
Romans 10:13,14,15 ..whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them? 15 And how can anyone tell them unless they are sent? The Scriptures say beautiful are the feet of those coming to preach the good news.
Quote from: jabcat on July 09, 2015, 10:53:07 PM
Yes, we can look at those ideas, thanks :thumbsup:
Interesting points and questions raised. A few thoughts; the scriptures say some the devil as their father, and that not all know God (some are "not of the faith" per Paul). In fact, many are enemies of God.
As far as Jesus' death benefiting all...I believe it opened the door to Life, but not all are given that Life in this age. I don't know why God chose that as His plan, and we might prefer or desire it some other way. But as I understand, that's what the scriptures declare. The "elect" in this age, through no worth of their own but of God's mercy, and then the rest enter the Door into Life later, in the next age.
I believe that's why believers in this age are given the word of reconciliation. The scriptures show how that happens.
Romans 10:13,14,15 ..whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them? 15 And how can anyone tell them unless they are sent? The Scriptures say beautiful are the feet of those coming to preach the good news.
As one who, like Bushy, also believes that the Father accomplished salvation, forgiveness of sin, and reconciliation through his Son, not potentially, but in actuality, like James, I also believe that not all are of the faith, some are children of the wicked one, and that not all know God.
The accomplishment of those things is the very motivation behind my sharing this good news with others, because not only did God design the result (salvation, forgiveness, reconciliation) but also the means to that end (sending believers to the unbeliever that they may hear and believe and be saved, forgiven, and reconciled).
It truly is in how one understands these various concepts.
Ronen
We have been set free from the enemy.
We were once captives,but now today can walk in freedom ,
Knowing we have been saved from bondage.
I think there's reconciliation being God making peace with man, by way of Christ's his sacrifice, and his availablity to man to repent and be saved. Then, there is reconciliation of man back to God, by making peace with God in OUR minds, and there is also the reconcilation in the doing away of the separation of man and God, making us one with him through the Spirit and faith. So even in the study of reconciliation you find several layers to it.
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 09, 2015, 11:27:35 PM
Quote from: jabcat on July 09, 2015, 10:53:07 PM
Yes, we can look at those ideas, thanks :thumbsup:
Interesting points and questions raised. A few thoughts; the scriptures say some the devil as their father, and that not all know God (some are "not of the faith" per Paul). In fact, many are enemies of God.
As far as Jesus' death benefiting all...I believe it opened the door to Life, but not all are given that Life in this age. I don't know why God chose that as His plan, and we might prefer or desire it some other way. But as I understand, that's what the scriptures declare. The "elect" in this age, through no worth of their own but of God's mercy, and then the rest enter the Door into Life later, in the next age.
I believe that's why believers in this age are given the word of reconciliation. The scriptures show how that happens.
Romans 10:13,14,15 ..whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them? 15 And how can anyone tell them unless they are sent? The Scriptures say beautiful are the feet of those coming to preach the good news.
As one who, like Bushy, also believes that the Father accomplished salvation, forgiveness of sin, and reconciliation through his Son, not potentially, but in actuality, like James, I also believe that not all are of the faith, some are children of the wicked one, and that not all know God.
The accomplishment of those things is the very motivation behind my sharing this good news with others, because not only did God design the result (salvation, forgiveness, reconciliation) but also the means to that end (sending believers to the unbeliever that they may hear and believe and be saved, forgiven, and reconciled).
It truly is in how one understands these various concepts.
Ronen
I dont disagree with anything you said there on the face of it Ronen. I noticed you said, "sending believers to unbelievers that they may hear and be saved, forgiven, healed. That is the process as I see it- altho God also sovereignly reveals Jesus as well(he did with me)
I believe all have already been forgiven, but no one is saved until they are connected to the Vine by grace through faith. IMO, forgiveness was accomplished at the cross for all. "It is finished". All will be gathered into one in Christ Jesus(Eph 1). As they are gathered into one they are saved. "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." "Behold I am making all things new."
As I see it, salvation comes when that reservoir of life is accessed through conscious spiritual connection to the Vine. As long as one abides in the vine they have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved by the one who was and is and is to come.
Having been forgiven is a blessing in itself, like the rain that falls on the just and the unjust. Paul spoke of this in Acts 17.
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being........30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Having been saved is a completed connection to the Vine, a conscious connection to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord by grace through faith, and as you said Ronen, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Col 1:21
Once you were alienated from God and were
enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
This is the gospel you have heard.... but once you were alienated from God.....NOT alienated BY God. We are the source of alienation. Jesus's spread His arms wide on that cross to the whole cosmos and every being in it.
1 Cor 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
As Paul said neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything but a new creation. We are in the first man or we are in the second man. Being in the second man is salvation, Christ in you the hope of glory.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Everyone in Adam is still dying, every one in Christ has passed from death unto life. When the last enemy is reconciled, gathered in, alienation exchanged for adoration- God will be all in all.
This is being accomplished through the dispensation of the fulness of times- as I see it.
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Sometimes we forget that Eph 2 is just a few sentences from Ephesians 1:9-11 and in the same context of the gathering together of all into one in Christ.
Those of us who have been gathered into one in Christ have been seated with Christ in the heavenly realms. Experiencing the reality of that is what progressive salvation and sanctification are about- which I see as summed up in Eph 3- "rooted and grounded in love...filled up unto all the fulness of God- then Eph 4, speaking the truth in love and becoming mature ministers of reconciliation to the world and of edification to the body.
To me- begun in this age- completed in the ages to come.
Patinak, I believe this response works for your question to me as far as what my thoughts are as well. No one is excluded from the plan, but all are not yet gathered into it, which is the kingdom of God.
Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2015, 09:04:49 PM
\ It might be handy for you moderators to have them all in one place so that you could even PM the newbies and say, "please take a look at this discussion and see if it answers your question."
This happens in other forums all the time where they say "please make sure to check if your question has been answered elsewhere before asking."
We'll look at the suggestions in more detail, thanks.
One reason the above hasn't happened here is, we're in large part here for newbies, those coming in seeking, and don't want to discourage them from asking questions, discussing, reasoning with us on things they come in wondering about. So although the loops of old topics coming up (but from new people) can serve to trigger all of us old-timers bringing up all the things again we've already hashed out (or should have :laugh2:) we just don't want to shut down someone coming in looking for answers to some basics they may be beginning to sort out. It's a rock and hard place, double-edged sword. So we'll have to really consider how to do this while maintaining an open environment for seekers without either shutting them down on one hand, or deluging them with "foolish arguments" on the other. :Chinscratch: :search:
Yeah you wouldn't want to shut anyone down. I tend to provide a link as a suggestion.