I don’t understand Revelations

[marie glen]

...but you do believe He will subdue the whole world? That  our personal towers must come down.. our false castles, castles in the air, etc.. but ultimately all things false fail? Not just within us but also within the world? Do you believe there is a collective lesson humanity is learning?

[eaglesway]

Oh Yes. And I think the personal towers are just smaller concentric circles of the same ones that will come down in the whole world, wheels within wheels. Principalities, powers, strongholds, fortresses, veils.... all will fall before the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

[rosered]

  :thumbsup:   I have considered the shortly  come to pass  in Revelation as being  , something for the reader .

Just as forever can mean as long as you are  mortal .

Many of mortals have read the same words over the  course of forever   meaning it does not Change [Word does not Change]

But our lives change and our  signs of the times does   change   because we   trust in     this Word and not the world .

[eaglesway]

Rev 21

...but you do believe He will subdue the whole world? That  our personal towers must come down.. our false castles, castles in the air, etc.. but ultimately all things false fail? Not just within us but also within the world? Do you believe there is a collective lesson humanity is learning?

Yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains. :o)

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 Pet 3:12 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements(stoicheon) will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;  having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

2 Cor 5:16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

Rev 21:5 And the one who sat on the throne said, "Behold I am making all things new!"

[rosered]

 

John I have considered   

I was thinking of how  Israel     had the oracles of God     , we have His WORD , but even Nicodemus  struggled with    having the oracles of God   as being a teacher  of the law



  Before  Christ came     and When Christ come to Nicodemus in the night  , this has  meaning of   being the dark /ignorance 

I John 3   we are all like Israel     having the  Word till the Spirit comes to teach us , Like Jesus showed  Nicodemus   about being  born again and   what way

its done      1Peter 4

whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God;

whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ.

To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

[eaglesway]

  :thumbsup:   I have considered the shortly  come to pass  in Revelation as being  , something for the reader .

Just as forever can mean as long as you are  mortal .

Many of mortals have read the same words over the  course of forever   meaning it does not Change [Word does not Change]

But our lives change and our  signs of the times does   change   because we   trust in     this Word and not the world .

All that is of this world, its foundations(arches), its elementary principles(stoicheon), its principalities and powers- are being destroyed by transformation." looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements(stoicheon) will melt with intense heat!"

Not a literal fire but a fire of transformation, from flesh to spirit, death to life.

As Paul says, "Although we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we know Him so no longer"?

Why?

Because now we know Him in the Spirit, in the "renewed mind".

The renewed mind has had destroyed in it the "elementary principles". If any man be in Christ Jesus- it operates by new principles. The principles of love and life. "Be not like the gentiles, darkened in their understanding".

If any one is in Christ, they are a "new creature". A "creature of newness".  Operating by trust in stead of control. Receiving by giving rather than taking. Filled by pouring out rather than by consuming. Fulfilled by sharing rather than hording.

The elementary principles are being destroyed by newness- see here, "Behold" the "one who sits on the throne"- that one who has all power in heaven and earth says- "I am making all things new"

Notice this :o) Behold :o)

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


Verse 22 shows the fundamental reality. All that died in Adam is being made new. Death transformed into life. Verse 23 the ages

Verse 24 the method  He is abolishing all rule power and authority. All principality. All the "foundations of the earth". All the "elements"(elementary principles/stoicheon). He is abolishing it BY TRANSFORMATION. He does not create, or leave, a vacuum.

Verse 25 For He must reign ntil every adversary is subjected. How does He reign? IN LIFE. How do we reign? IN LIFE! Newness of life. Death in us transformed into life in Him. Blessed is the person who perserveres under trial for afterwards they will receive the Crown of Life(jas).

11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

We are waiting for a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness.....

Destruction of adversaries through discipline and trial, yielding the "renewed mind", destroying towers and strongholds, rending veils, releasing from "futility" into the glorious liberty of the sons of God- that perfect law of liberty- love. Death "swallowed up" by immortality.

Verse 26 and 27, the last enemy is death- abolished by subjection to the King of Life, the King of Love. The last elementary principle of this cosmos. The last foundation. The last veil. The last law. The last vestige of the "old" man who needed to be "ruled to be righteous."

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope  that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God....

For freedom Christ has set you free :o)

Verse 28 The one who has gathered all into one, and all those who have been gathered, poured into the Creator, immersed in the water of life, and the Creator poured also into all of them- that God becomes ALL IN ALL.

"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."(John 17)

We the gathered are one in Christ, but as carnal babes still leaning on the foundations(arches) and elementary principles(stoicheon) of this corrupt cosmos- still needing to be ruled to be righteousness. But as we grow, through discipline and trial(if we are not illegitimate) we are "renewed" in the spirit of our minds. We walk by life. We walk in love. We are new creatures. We are a new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelss righteousness- the fore runners of the age to come, the first-fruits of the ALL IN ALL.


For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be glory to the ages. Amen. Rom 11:36

[rosered]

 :angelharp:       :grouppray:      :goodpost:      Thanks  be to God for you  brother  John  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Rev 21

...but you do believe He will subdue the whole world? That  our personal towers must come down.. our false castles, castles in the air, etc.. but ultimately all things false fail? Not just within us but also within the world? Do you believe there is a collective lesson humanity is learning?

Yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains. :o)

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 Pet 3:12 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements(stoicheon) will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;  having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

2 Cor 5:16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

Rev 21:5 And the one who sat on the throne said, "Behold I am making all things new!"

     :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :smile:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Beautiful post Eaglesway..... :thumbsup: :banana:         

Revelations has several streams in it. The primary one is the revelation of Jesus Christ to believers.

One noteworthy saying that is repeated in the revelation of Jesus Christ that He gave to John is, "Let the one who has ears hear what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies."

The advice I give to readers, seekers, regarding John's apocalypse(unveiling) is to ask the Spirit to give you ears to hear what He would speak to you in your spirit.

I do not treat Revelation as a box to be unpacked, but as an "oracle of God", living and active, the sword of the Spirit, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bones and marrow- making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Like Jesus parables, revealing "secrets hidden from the foundation of the world."

For all that is said and taught, no one completely understands John's apocalypse because it is not given to a "common understanding". It is for those who will listen in the Spirit, and the Spirit gives them, in measure- what He will.

As an eschatological timetable the book is endlessly debatable, but as a portal into the heart of God in Jesus Christ, it is invaluable and always open, to the one who "hears". The one other thing I would add is that much of Revelation is written in the language of the prophets and apostles, incorporating images that are refferred to in other places in the scriptures. If you watch for those you will get clues from the Spirit as to what He wants you to see.

An example;

In Rev 10 there is a giant messenger "coming down from heaven", putting one foot one the land and one on the sea. He is clothed in the clouds and there is a rainbow over his head and his face shines like the sun. in his hand is a little scroll in his hand, which John is told to eat, and it is sweet in his mouth but bitter in his belly. Then he is told to prophesy.

What the Spirit speaks to me from this is as follows- let anyone benefit from my "hearing" or not, as they are led.

If you look up "coming down from heaven" you will see that Jesus is the bread that "comes down from heaven". The Bride, the holy city, is "coming down from heaven" at the end of revelation. Jesus prays, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" and to me, coming down from heaven means heavenly realities manifesting in the earthly realm- again, "unveiling". When Jesus returns the "veil of the heavens will be rolled back like a scroll and the sign of the son of man will appear in the heavens". Isaiah says, "Upon this mountain I will remove the covering(veil) that is over the peoples".

So through these and other verses I see that first off, this messenger is "coming down from heaven" a manifestation on earth, as Jesus was in time, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" 1 Pet 1:20- and I groan inwardly, eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God(Rom 8). I intercede for the body of Christ in my generation, its edification and manifestation.

In Hebrews we read that we are, surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses", so as the messenger is clothed in the cloud, I see the revelation of Jesus in His  ecclesia. He is "coming in the clouds, 10,000's of 10,000's of His righteous ones."

His feet are as pillars of fire, one on the land(past) one on the sea(future). He has a rainbow upon His head. In Ephesians 1 we are told Jesus is "Head over all things to the ecclesia, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all". We are "seated in Christ in the heavenly realms". In Ezekiel and in Revelations we see Jesus enthroned with a rainbow around the throne. We are seeing the "one new man" as "many sons unto glory".

The angel roars like a lion and the seven thunders come out of his mouth but John is told to "seal them up", even as he was told to "break the seals" earlier in revelation.

John is then told to take the scroll and eat it, and as Ezekiel before him, it is "sweet in his mouth but bitter in his belly", and after eating, he must prophesy.

The prophetic word is sweet in our mouths( a joy to receive, to have unlocked, to understand), but once ingested(easy) it must be digested(hard) and there is a price to pay in sharing the sufferings of Christ before we can truly "Prophesy". Before we can truly, "come down out of heaven" in our time, and be an "unveiling of Jesus Christ" in our generation. "If we suffer with Him we be glorified with Him". "I count not the sufferings of this present time to compare with the glory to be revealed"(Rom 8)

This messenger has a face that shines like the sun- as we see Jesus has in Rev 1, another clue to the identity of this messenger, whose head is in heaven, surrounded by a rainbow and face shining like the sun. Christ in you, the hope of glory.

15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God(eaten and digested). On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God(the prophetic word lived, then spoken). 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost/veiled). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

We carry the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ, the image of God.

I see Rev 10 as a fulfillment of Eph 4, the "one new man" revealed as the many membered "body of Christ" under His Headship, transforming the world, ""for the whole creation groans awaiting eagerly the revelation of the sons of God, who will set the creation "free from futility into the glorious liberty of the sons of God" and the suffering we endure to become a part of this work, as overcomers.

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

I must eat and digest(become strengthed in my inner man) the words of Christ so that He may be unveiled through me, and we must do so together, speaking the truth in love, building up the body, becoming mature unto full stature.

Eph 314 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations [n]forever and ever. Amen.



Ephesians, BTW, carries many keys to understanding Revelation, imo.

[Joanna]

It says in Revelations 21:4 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes.  There will be no more death or mourning or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.'

This is a positive scripture verse. What does it mean?  Is it when everyone is saved and reconciled to God?

[Tom]

"Everyone is saved and reconciled to God" at the consummation of the eons.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)