I work in an office and I have found documents written by my human resources department full of jargon and technical words making it very hard for me to understand. I experience the same thing when reading the Book of Revelations in the Bible.
Whenever I read any text I am inclined to try and take what it means literally but you cannot do this with Revelations. Because Revelations is written in metaphoric and symbolic language, I do not understand some of it. If Revelations is regarded by traditional Christians and theologians as being a very essential part of the Christian faith, then why was it written in such a way with terminology which I cannot understand? No wonder 'the lake of fire' is scary and threatening to many people.
Joanna..you might benefit from reading all the topics of this section[book of revelations] not that I think we understand everything fully.
Basically on Jesus Christ can open the scrolls and reveal their true meaning[opening the scriptures to our understanding...and
cause our hearts to burn[like on the road to Emmanues]
Quotewhy was it written in such a way with terminology which I cannot understand?
Because Christianity is has turned into Greek philosophy.
If you would think the way of an ancient Jew you would know the lake of fire is the Temple Laver click (http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html)
That was basic knowledge in that time. Just as they knew fire and brimstone were viewed as divine purifying things. In fact many things in the NT directly refer to purifying. That one of the main themes.
QuoteRevelations is written in metaphoric and symbolic language
That's correct. But it wasn't invented when it was written down. The Jews had all sort of (rather weird) names for their things. Common knowledge. Lots of Revelation is about Temple rituals (which are a pattern of heaven). Those rituals were also widely known.
The main problem is that many of those rituals aren't defined in the Bible. So 'you' sometimes have to look outside the Bible. For many that's a big nono. I have little understanding for that but I have no understanding at all for the fact that they just use their own imagination to explain those weird words.
That said several bits of Revelation are explained in the OT which many Christians view as past glory. (many NT only Bibles)
I already wrote all this stuff so I'll give just a few examples.
Rivers and ships are symbolic for people who spread God's Gospel/Word.
Sweet water is 'Bible water' bitter water is 'satanic water'.
Star is often a name for an (arch angle)
Just a thought for you to consider.
A star (angel) fell from heaven (rebelled) and destroyed* 1/3 of the ships (ministers) and made the rivers (ministers) bitter*.
*= Injecting pagan crap into God's word.
Just a different way to look at it :2c:
yes...and there is a sweet BRANCH..that when cast into the bitter waters[mara/Meribah] makes it sweet...and the women quit casting forth
their young.[miscarriage]
Thank you. It seems that theologians not familiar with Hebrew or Greek culture and language have misinterpreted Revelations and come to the wrong conclusion of eternal torment in a fiery hell which has been handled down to churches through the centuries and turned into a hideous doctrine and mislead Christians.
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Good to see you WW !!!! , sweep in on us here at the Tent :HeartThrob:
I agree,, sometimes folks are just way to forward with their thoughts , I could just be one of them :winkgrin:
But sometimes , it not for them yet , it maybe for someone else and the light goes on for them too ..
Understanding is something given of God and until that time we use our own , thus the warning,
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding , Trusting God is easy to say and harder to do when the world and our flesh is always getting in the way of the Light , till the Light is so bright you cannot hide from it any longer and all the hidden things of the heart are seen for what they are .
QuoteRevelations is written in metaphoric and symbolic language
That's correct. But it wasn't invented when it was written down. The Jews had all sort of (rather weird) names for their things. Common knowledge. Lots of Revelation is about Temple rituals (which are a pattern of heaven). Those rituals were also widely known.
The main problem is that many of those rituals aren't defined in the Bible. So 'you' sometimes have to look outside the Bible. For many that's a big nono. I have little understanding for that but I have no understanding at all for the fact that they just use their own imagination to explain those weird words.
GOD BLESS !! :HeartThrob:
QuoteThank you. It seems that theologians not familiar with Hebrew or Greek culture and language have misinterpreted Revelations and come to the wrong conclusion of eternal torment in a fiery hell which has been handled down to churches through the centuries and turned into a hideous doctrine and mislead Christians.
Amen Joanna !! well said !
Joanna,
I think Greek culture has to be left out of the whole equation.
The OT was about Jews doing Jewish things. They had flaws but they at least attempted to follow God's 'Jewish teachings'
Jesus was very much Jew. The 12 weren't exactly Greek philosophers either. So I don't see anything Greek about the Bible.
In fact I think the Greek culture started the pollution of the Gospel. All those pagans brought Greek paganism with them. They soon outnumbered 'original Jews'. They lived in a society with pagans (Greek, Roman).
Then later Romans got involved when Constantine turned it into the state religion. They turned Christianity into a political tool in an attempt to glue their crumbling empire.
Quotehave misinterpreted Revelations
I'm sure misunderstanding is part of it. Only Father, Son and HS fully understand it. But I'm also convinced they on purpose added doctrine to scare people. A tool to control the masses.
I believe no one understands revelations Joanna , till the Holy Spirit , rest on them and begins teaching them . and there is a work on our part as well .
The world is full of thousands of ideas/imaginations , like WW said , but there is only ONE GOD , ONE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH
This is whom and what we seek after and learn of Him and from Him
ask given to you Matt 7
7"Ask, and it will be given to you;
seek, and you will find;
knock, and it will be opened to you.
8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
:cloud9: This is my personal opinion, based on an experience I had with God where one night He opened by eyes and I was allowed to read with the mind of Christ. It lasted about an hour and a half and I greedily stuffed in as much Word in Revelation as I could in that time period, only to find since it came in as Spirit, so it was under the control of the Spirit, and He wouldn't let me remember thru my carnal mind any of what I read but one small part. :sigh:
Thus I don't think anyone will truly understand it until we fully have been given the mind of Christ and are standing on top of the mount of God (spiritually speaking), all things overcome. I think it's a book that has been veiled for a reason, a time, and a particular people. My :2c:
:thumbsup: sometimes the vision is sealed up[protected] for revealing at the proper time.
I know there is a great fondness for the Jewish culture, and I understand why. But I don't think the Greek scriptures were a mistake because some people try to mix philosophy with scripture. I think God chose the Greek language for a good reason just as I think the risen Christ chose Paul to be the apostle to the nations for a good reason. I also don't think Revelation is all figurative even though there's a lot of figurative language in it. Everybody's got a different perspective and a different interpretation of scripture especially when it comes to Revelation. I'm not going to get into a debate about what's figurative and what's not especially in Revelation, but, as I've said before, I read scripture like all other literature with basically a literal interpretation until I see something that's obviously figurative. I can't tell you how to see the world or scripture. That's your thing, but I have my own perspective and my own interpretation of scripture even though I try to keep an open mind to possible change if something makes sense. Joanna, here's a link to some information about Revelation.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm
Revelations has several streams in it. The primary one is the revelation of Jesus Christ to believers.
One noteworthy saying that is repeated in the revelation of Jesus Christ that He gave to John is, "Let the one who has ears hear what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies."
The advice I give to readers, seekers, regarding John's apocalypse(unveiling) is to ask the Spirit to give you ears to hear what He would speak to you in your spirit.
I do not treat Revelation as a box to be unpacked, but as an "oracle of God", living and active, the sword of the Spirit, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bones and marrow- making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Like Jesus parables, revealing "secrets hidden from the foundation of the world."
For all that is said and taught, no one completely understands John's apocalypse because it is not given to a "common understanding". It is for those who will listen in the Spirit, and the Spirit gives them, in measure- what He will.
As an eschatological timetable the book is endlessly debatable, but as a portal into the heart of God in Jesus Christ, it is invaluable and always open, to the one who "hears". The one other thing I would add is that much of Revelation is written in the language of the prophets and apostles, incorporating images that are refferred to in other places in the scriptures. If you watch for those you will get clues from the Spirit as to what He wants you to see.
An example;
In Rev 10 there is a giant messenger "coming down from heaven", putting one foot one the land and one on the sea. He is clothed in the clouds and there is a rainbow over his head and his face shines like the sun. in his hand is a little scroll in his hand, which John is told to eat, and it is sweet in his mouth but bitter in his belly. Then he is told to prophesy.
What the Spirit speaks to me from this is as follows- let anyone benefit from my "hearing" or not, as they are led.
If you look up "coming down from heaven" you will see that Jesus is the bread that "comes down from heaven". The Bride, the holy city, is "coming down from heaven" at the end of revelation. Jesus prays, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" and to me, coming down from heaven means heavenly realities manifesting in the earthly realm- again, "unveiling". When Jesus returns the "veil of the heavens will be rolled back like a scroll and the sign of the son of man will appear in the heavens". Isaiah says, "Upon this mountain I will remove the covering(veil) that is over the peoples".
So through these and other verses I see that first off, this messenger is "coming down from heaven" a manifestation on earth, as Jesus was in time, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" 1 Pet 1:20- and I groan inwardly, eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God(Rom 8). I intercede for the body of Christ in my generation, its edification and manifestation.
In Hebrews we read that we are, surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses", so as the messenger is clothed in the cloud, I see the revelation of Jesus in His ecclesia. He is "coming in the clouds, 10,000's of 10,000's of His righteous ones."
His feet are as pillars of fire, one on the land(past) one on the sea(future). He has a rainbow upon His head. In Ephesians 1 we are told Jesus is "Head over all things to the ecclesia, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all". We are "seated in Christ in the heavenly realms". In Ezekiel and in Revelations we see Jesus enthroned with a rainbow around the throne. We are seeing the "one new man" as "many sons unto glory".
The angel roars like a lion and the seven thunders come out of his mouth but John is told to "seal them up", even as he was told to "break the seals" earlier in revelation.
John is then told to take the scroll and eat it, and as Ezekiel before him, it is "sweet in his mouth but bitter in his belly", and after eating, he must prophesy.
The prophetic word is sweet in our mouths( a joy to receive, to have unlocked, to understand), but once ingested(easy) it must be digested(hard) and there is a price to pay in sharing the sufferings of Christ before we can truly "Prophesy". Before we can truly, "come down out of heaven" in our time, and be an "unveiling of Jesus Christ" in our generation. "If we suffer with Him we be glorified with Him". "I count not the sufferings of this present time to compare with the glory to be revealed"(Rom 8)
This messenger has a face that shines like the sun- as we see Jesus has in Rev 1, another clue to the identity of this messenger, whose head is in heaven, surrounded by a rainbow and face shining like the sun. Christ in you, the hope of glory.
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God(eaten and digested). On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God(the prophetic word lived, then spoken). 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost/veiled). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.
We carry the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ, the image of God.
I see Rev 10 as a fulfillment of Eph 4, the "one new man" revealed as the many membered "body of Christ" under His Headship, transforming the world, ""for the whole creation groans awaiting eagerly the revelation of the sons of God, who will set the creation "free from futility into the glorious liberty of the sons of God" and the suffering we endure to become a part of this work, as overcomers.
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
I must eat and digest(become strengthed in my inner man) the words of Christ so that He may be unveiled through me, and we must do so together, speaking the truth in love, building up the body, becoming mature unto full stature.
Eph 314 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations [n]forever and ever. Amen.
Ephesians, BTW, carries many keys to understanding Revelation, imo.
To me, the Book of Revelation is the consummation of human history - there's actually locks on the vision :smile: First key? not to tell ourselves it cannot be understood, or ie. we cannot understand it, if we pray and enter His quietness, i don't see how we can go wrong (but I guess we do! :laughing7:)
I think the book tells the story of the collapse of man's empire(s), which will totally unveil truth from untruth.. or rather the truth that if one builds on sand (i.e, w/o God) it cannot endure.. An eternal and important truth, I believe. Proving for all time, good from evil (life from nonlife).
I believe the vision is described in words by John, a first century person, who had never seen our modern inventions so common today.. Add to that the language of vision.. he sees the dragon, we won't..
The vision concerning man's world begins in chapter six, where the first lock is.. the seven seals being elements of the latter age-the years of our Lord a.d. but they are described here as a blend of what they are at their beginning and what they are at their full maturity at the 'end'. Therefor things are described here so early on in the narrative which do not happen until very late days, obscuring the vision. Chapters 10, 12, 13 are inserts, like boxed inserts in a magazine article. This too obscures the vision.
Basically the vision is the Seals, the victorious gospel rides forth and continues its ride to the 'end'.. war is given a long (and, or great) sword, its companion is famine.. and pestilence, which the grave follows, including the mass grave.. the split atom changes the fabric of life and will one day shake the planet. This brings us to where we are today - in the pause of thermonuclear warfare - revelation 7:1.
When that pause of thermonuclear warfare is broken (in the middle east, and, or from?) is when the 7th seal is broken open and the 7 angels with trumpets prepare to sound.. which is thermonuclear effects.
Then drought and then marshall law for 5 months enforced by what sure sound like helicopters, pun intended. Then ground war with many troops crossing the euphrates.. (rev 9)
The latest thing I have believed about Apocalypse (the unveiling) (today actually during prayer and reading) is I believe "a fiery mountain in the sea" will be thermonuclear missing (likely) New York City.. causing men's' hearts failing them concerning things happening on earth and in the sea.. (rev 8 and Luke 21:26)
According to Daniel 12:11, 12, I believe 666 will hum along for 45 days. Three (Hebrew) years and seven months after Israel's (place of?) daily sacrifice (prayers?) is removed/taken away.. Matthew 24:1,2, "not one stone of all these will remain atop another" - so in that day, folks knowing this, when they see the notorious 7 year treaty broken with Israel in that manner (daily sacrifice done away, whatever it turns out to be) 3 years 7 months later.. "when you see the abomination of desolation set up.." I would advise christians to stay out of the public..
It's a puzzle yes, but the pieces fit together very neatly.. And is largely based on logic.. Where do we see the world trending toward?
When I first prayed to understand the vision, the first thing which came to mind was a question - what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today? (Many prophecy buffs, I believe, are stuck in yesteryear.) And instantly flashing into my mind was man's theory of evolution.. wjich has turned western civilization on its ear.. a great delusion, causing a great falling away.. I believe the false prophet began as a man but now is a white frocked magician producing modern miraclw and wonders, one of which will be the 666 desolating apparatus.
People seldom believe me (or christians anyway, nonchristians can understand what I'm saying). But I am quite convinced of what I believe concerning this and it reads like any other narrative to me..
God bless.. :girlheart:
P.S - http://bibleprophecy4today.blogspot.com/ (http://bibleprophecy4today.blogspot.com/) my blog, a Bible prophecy study..
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Quote from: eaglesway on May 12, 2015, 12:54:12 AM
I do not treat Revelation as a box to be unpacked, but as an "oracle of God", living and active, the sword of the Spirit, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bones and marrow- making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
As an eschatological timetable the book is endlessly debatable, but as a portal into the heart of God in Jesus Christ, it is invaluable and always open, to the one who "hears".
I think this is the key, 'hearing' with spiritual ears. In the Spirit is All-Truth. Spirit is not of earthly time but is of Eternity.
I copied this text from Wikipedia:
'John of Patmos (also called John the Revelator, John the Divine, or John the Theologian) is the name given to the author of the Book of Revelation, the apocalyptic text forming the final chapter of the New Testament. The text of Revelation states that the author is called John and that he lives on the Greek island of Patmos, where by some, he is considered to be in exile as a result of anti-Christian persecution under the Roman emperor Domitian.'
And some folks think that's the same John who was one of the apostles.
Quote from: lastpost on May 12, 2015, 06:45:42 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 12, 2015, 12:54:12 AM
I do not treat Revelation as a box to be unpacked, but as an "oracle of God", living and active, the sword of the Spirit, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bones and marrow- making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
As an eschatological timetable the book is endlessly debatable, but as a portal into the heart of God in Jesus Christ, it is invaluable and always open, to the one who "hears".
Amen and Amen !! :HeartThrob:
I think this is the key, 'hearing' with spiritual ears. In the Spirit is All-Truth. Spirit is not of earthly time but is of Eternity.
Just my :2c: i have found before i can hear....there is the requirement to listen. :dsunny:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 12, 2015, 06:01:51 PM
Just my :2c: i have found before i can hear....there is the requirement to listen. :dsunny:
:gthumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 11, 2015, 07:07:00 PM
Quotewhy was it written in such a way with terminology which I cannot understand?
Because Christianity is has turned into Greek philosophy.
If you would think the way of an ancient Jew you would know the lake of fire is the Temple Laver click (http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html)
That was basic knowledge in that time. Just as they knew fire and brimstone were viewed as divine purifying things. In fact many things in the NT directly refer to purifying. That one of the main themes.
QuoteRevelations is written in metaphoric and symbolic language
That's correct. But it wasn't invented when it was written down. The Jews had all sort of (rather weird) names for their things. Common knowledge. Lots of Revelation is about Temple rituals (which are a pattern of heaven). Those rituals were also widely known.
The main problem is that many of those rituals aren't defined in the Bible. So 'you' sometimes have to look outside the Bible. For many that's a big nono. I have little understanding for that but I have no understanding at all for the fact that they just use their own imagination to explain those weird words.
That said several bits of Revelation are explained in the OT which many Christians view as past glory. (many NT only Bibles)
I already wrote all this stuff so I'll give just a few examples.
Rivers and ships are symbolic for people who spread God's Gospel/Word.
Sweet water is 'Bible water' bitter water is 'satanic water'.
Star is often a name for an (arch angle)
Just a thought for you to consider.
A star (angel) fell from heaven (rebelled) and destroyed* 1/3 of the ships (ministers) and made the rivers (ministers) bitter*.
*= Injecting pagan crap into God's word.
Just a different way to look at it :2c:
..I agree but also think that because God knew the message would travel into the Greek and the english, etc, etc.. or that is to say, prophecy in the Old Testament was not merely, nor only, metaphor, a tendency I hate any speck of for I believe it to be contrary to God's Spirit..
That said, I do believe "the unveiling" (by collapse/best if forewarned, imho) does follow and is expressed in the pattern of the Temple rites; and also, I believe, of the (ancient) Spring and Autumn Holy Days, especially the Autumn.
I think having Hebrew viewpoint/perspective is a key to hearing accurately most, if not all things in the Word... Not obsessively though! As if we can make no sense of any of it, when we should know God's Word is meant to reach all persons, very few of which on planet Earth likely have Hebrew dictionaries and concordances, etc.
:smile:
Quote from: Joanna on May 11, 2015, 07:48:07 PM
Thank you. It seems that theologians not familiar with Hebrew or Greek culture and language have misinterpreted Revelations and come to the wrong conclusion of eternal torment in a fiery hell which has been handled down to churches through the centuries and turned into a hideous doctrine and mislead Christians.
hi Joanna!
I can't help thinking, it's almost not surprising that after almost 2000 years, of being handed down through human hands, and through churches made up of humans, the gospel message has lost some of its glory, and has also picked up some baggage along the way.. (aided I'm sure by human conspiracy and,or spiritual)
And I do believe the 'hell' doctrine blasphemes God's Holy and 100% good character, every day.. and, effectively hides the gospel message to so many.. for it simply makes the message non believable. It's a miracle of God's Spirit and Grace that people still find Him..
:gsmile:
I think Revelations is meant to require spiritual ears and a humble seeking heart, and that it will evolve within the heart of the believer seeking in it, wheels within wheels, layer within layer.
Quote from: rosered on May 11, 2015, 09:03:24 PM
I believe no one understands revelations Joanna , till the Holy Spirit , rest on them and begins teaching them . and there is a work on our part as well .
The world is full of thousands of ideas/imaginations , like WW said , but there is only ONE GOD , ONE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH
This is whom and what we seek after and learn of Him and from Him
ask given to you Matt 7
7"Ask, and it will be given to you;
seek, and you will find;
knock, and it will be opened to you.
8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Amen Rose, that's the key!
Quote from: Tom on May 12, 2015, 04:16:29 PM
And some folks think that's the same John who was one of the apostles.
:Chinscratch: Revelation, like the gospel testimony of John, identifies Jesus as the Word, or Logos (John 1:1, 14; Revelation 19:13)... another likeness is John is the only one who identifies Jesus as the true witness (John 5:31–47; 8:14–18; Revelation 2:13; 3:14), and who most illustrates the O.T. requirement of two witnesses (John 8:12–30; Revelation 11:1–12).. And I can't help noticing both works are poetic and visionary masterpieces..
Some have tried to claim revelation was written quite a bit later, trying to equate it with the later spurious gospels, etc.. but the book claims Jesus speaks the promise of a blessing on those who hear it, and an antiblessing on those who take away from it or add to it.. And Wikipedia, of course, is edited by anyone..
:Peace2: :smile:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 12, 2015, 07:39:17 PM
I think Revelations is meant to require spiritual ears and a humble seeking heart, and that it will evolve within the heart of the believer seeking in it, wheels within wheels, layer within layer.
...by this do you mean, truths on all levels? from deep within the believer, to being also played out in the world? :dontknow:
it's how I see it.. :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on May 12, 2015, 07:44:33 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 12, 2015, 07:39:17 PM
I think Revelations is meant to require spiritual ears and a humble seeking heart, and that it will evolve within the heart of the believer seeking in it, wheels within wheels, layer within layer.
...by this do you mean, truths on all levels? from deep within the believer, to being also played out in the world? :dontknow:
it's how I see it.. :smile:
Yes, I mean that.......and :o)
It begins...
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
dei genesthai en tachei, "made to become, in quickness"
This 2000 year old revelation was not just meant for the "last generation" of this age. It is full of individual revelation for bond-servants. The testimony of Jesus Christ- the bond-servant of God, through John, the bond-servant of Jesus. "Things that will happen", dei genesthai- "behoves to become" (as in "you will become-genethai- fishers of men"). "The things that will be made to become quickly" is the proper translation in my opinion. For things to become in quickness, there must be more than an eschatological view. Anyone who reads the, "Today if you hear His voice" of the apocalypse is being shown the new creation, as it is "becoming" in the spirit, in quickness. It opens with a vision of Christ as He is in the spirit, and closes with "the Spirit and the Bride say, 'COME'".
For this reason, I assert that(imo), not knowing the times which are reserved to the Fathers knowledge, that even Jesus claimed not to know, there is a deeper revelation than the eschatological one, and it is about the nature of the body of Christ and what the ecclesia is "becoming" in the spirit, what God's purpose in the body of Christ is in the Now(in every generation that reads), and what the operations of the kingdom of God are meant to be among us, and what they will look like in the age to come. "You will receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you and you will be "witnesses unto me"(COME).
This is so we can find ourselves and orient ourselves to the purpose of God in any generation, and understand how we are to integrate with it- including how to recognize the spirit which is not of God, that gathers armies to battle(anti-Christ)- but it is only for those with ears to hear, the bond-servants, the overcomers, the humble listening, waiting seekers. "This is the patience of the saints(holy ones, ecclesia, called out and gathered together ones).
Jesus said, "Whoever does not gather with me scatters". Paul called God's purpose a "kind intention which He purposed in Him(Christ) the gathering of all things into one in Christ"(Eph 1).
Otherwise the apocalypse would have been essentially useless for 18-1900 years until the age were to draw to a close- so, I see hebrews 12:22-28 as an end-view summation of something being created, as Peter called it- a "habitation of God in the Spirit", built of living stones. A view through the veil of the "city made without hands, having foundations in the heavenlies, whose builder and maker is God". It is "coming down from heaven, clothed in white linen, adorned for the bridegroom".
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
The process of the "Yet once more" is fleshed out in Revelations- not to the exclusion of eschatological values, but with a priority of revealing what we are "in quickness becoming"(Come quickly Lord Jesus).
So the introduction is to Jesus as He is, and then the opening is 7 letters to 7 churches, revealing the prototypical failures and victoties of His bond-servants, according to the "testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the spirit of prophecy- Again, so we can place ourselves, discern our reality, indeed "see ourselves" and hear where we are in relationship to what we are meant to become in Him in our generation. He walks among the Lampstands and holds the 7 stars in His hands and speaks eternal(time transcendant) truths so that we will, as He exhorts, "Hear what the Spirit says to the churches", for He is coming "quickly", to try the reigns and the hearts.
"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. 4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.
Remember, the letter is written to "His bond-servants". The sons of Levi were His bond-servants in the OT, but this prohecy in Malachi echoes John's opening vision of Christ(eyes like flames, face like the bright shing sun, two edged sword out of His mouth, hair like refiners wool, feet like burnished bronze), living and active, and is for those who serve Him Now, Today, because all prophecy comes out of the "testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the spirit of prophecy", and as John opens he says the angel/messenger who brought it to him "testified to the word of God and testimony of Jesus Christ". For me, looking at the apocalypse dispensationally misses the primary revelation, which is Christ, the Bride, the Kingdom, and the restoration of all things, Today- and finding my place in it.
...but you do believe He will subdue the whole world? That our personal towers must come down.. our false castles, castles in the air, etc.. but ultimately all things false fail? Not just within us but also within the world? Do you believe there is a collective lesson humanity is learning?
Oh Yes. And I think the personal towers are just smaller concentric circles of the same ones that will come down in the whole world, wheels within wheels. Principalities, powers, strongholds, fortresses, veils.... all will fall before the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
:thumbsup: I have considered the shortly come to pass in Revelation as being , something for the reader .
Just as forever can mean as long as you are mortal .
Many of mortals have read the same words over the course of forever meaning it does not Change [Word does not Change]
But our lives change and our signs of the times does change because we trust in this Word and not the world .
Rev 21
Quote from: marie glen on May 13, 2015, 04:53:07 AM
...but you do believe He will subdue the whole world? That our personal towers must come down.. our false castles, castles in the air, etc.. but ultimately all things false fail? Not just within us but also within the world? Do you believe there is a collective lesson humanity is learning?
Yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains. :o)
Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
2 Pet 3:12 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements(stoicheon) will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
2 Cor 5:16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
Rev 21:5 And the one who sat on the throne said, "Behold I am making all things new!"
John I have considered
I was thinking of how Israel had the oracles of God , we have His WORD , but even Nicodemus struggled with having the oracles of God as being a teacher of the law
Before Christ came and When Christ come to Nicodemus in the night , this has meaning of being the dark /ignorance
I John 3 we are all like Israel having the Word till the Spirit comes to teach us , Like Jesus showed Nicodemus about being born again and what way
its done 1Peter 4
whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God;
whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ.
To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Quote from: rosered on May 13, 2015, 12:44:28 PM
:thumbsup: I have considered the shortly come to pass in Revelation as being , something for the reader .
Just as forever can mean as long as you are mortal .
Many of mortals have read the same words over the course of forever meaning it does not Change [Word does not Change]
But our lives change and our signs of the times does change because we trust in this Word and not the world .
All that is of this world, its foundations(arches), its elementary principles(stoicheon), its principalities and powers- are being destroyed by transformation." looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements(stoicheon) will melt with intense heat!"
Not a literal fire but a fire of transformation, from flesh to spirit, death to life.
As Paul says, "Although we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we know Him so no longer"?
Why?
Because now we know Him in the Spirit, in the "renewed mind".
The renewed mind has had destroyed in it the "elementary principles". If any man be in Christ Jesus- it operates by new principles. The principles of love and life. "Be not like the gentiles, darkened in their understanding".
If any one is in Christ, they are a "new creature". A "creature of newness". Operating by trust in stead of control. Receiving by giving rather than taking. Filled by pouring out rather than by consuming. Fulfilled by sharing rather than hording.
The elementary principles are being destroyed by newness- see here, "Behold" the "one who sits on the throne"- that one who has all power in heaven and earth says- "I am making all things new"
Notice this :o) Behold :o)
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ
all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Verse 22 shows the fundamental reality. All that died in Adam is being made new. Death transformed into life. Verse 23 the ages
Verse 24
the method He is abolishing all rule power and authority. All principality. All the "foundations of the earth". All the "elements"(elementary principles/stoicheon). He is abolishing it BY TRANSFORMATION. He does not create, or leave, a vacuum.
Verse 25 For He must reign ntil every adversary is subjected. How does He reign? IN LIFE. How do we reign? IN LIFE! Newness of life. Death in us transformed into life in Him. Blessed is the person who perserveres under trial for afterwards they will receive the Crown of Life(jas).
11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
We are waiting for a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness.....
Destruction of adversaries through discipline and trial, yielding the "renewed mind", destroying towers and strongholds, rending veils, releasing from "futility" into the glorious liberty of the sons of God- that perfect law of liberty- love. Death "swallowed up" by immortality.
Verse 26 and 27, the last enemy is death- abolished by subjection to the King of Life, the King of Love. The last elementary principle of this cosmos. The last foundation. The last veil. The last law. The last vestige of the "old" man who needed to be "ruled to be righteous."
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God....
For freedom Christ has set you free :o)
Verse 28 The one who has gathered all into one, and all those who have been gathered, poured into the Creator, immersed in the water of life, and the Creator poured also into all of them- that God becomes ALL IN ALL.
"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."(John 17)
We the gathered are one in Christ, but as carnal babes still leaning on the foundations(arches) and elementary principles(stoicheon) of this corrupt cosmos- still needing to be ruled to be righteousness. But as we grow, through discipline and trial(if we are not illegitimate) we are "renewed" in the spirit of our minds. We walk by life. We walk in love. We are new creatures. We are a new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelss righteousness- the fore runners of the age to come, the first-fruits of the ALL IN ALL.
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be glory to the ages. Amen. Rom 11:36
:angelharp: :grouppray: :goodpost: Thanks be to God for you brother John :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 13, 2015, 07:47:34 PM
Rev 21Quote from: marie glen on May 13, 2015, 04:53:07 AM
...but you do believe He will subdue the whole world? That our personal towers must come down.. our false castles, castles in the air, etc.. but ultimately all things false fail? Not just within us but also within the world? Do you believe there is a collective lesson humanity is learning?
Yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains. :o)
Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
2 Pet 3:12 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements(stoicheon) will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
2 Cor 5:16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
Rev 21:5 And the one who sat on the throne said, "Behold I am making all things new!"
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :smile:
:cloud9: Beautiful post Eaglesway..... :thumbsup: :banana:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 12, 2015, 12:54:12 AM
Revelations has several streams in it. The primary one is the revelation of Jesus Christ to believers.
One noteworthy saying that is repeated in the revelation of Jesus Christ that He gave to John is, "Let the one who has ears hear what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies."
The advice I give to readers, seekers, regarding John's apocalypse(unveiling) is to ask the Spirit to give you ears to hear what He would speak to you in your spirit.
I do not treat Revelation as a box to be unpacked, but as an "oracle of God", living and active, the sword of the Spirit, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bones and marrow- making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Like Jesus parables, revealing "secrets hidden from the foundation of the world."
For all that is said and taught, no one completely understands John's apocalypse because it is not given to a "common understanding". It is for those who will listen in the Spirit, and the Spirit gives them, in measure- what He will.
As an eschatological timetable the book is endlessly debatable, but as a portal into the heart of God in Jesus Christ, it is invaluable and always open, to the one who "hears". The one other thing I would add is that much of Revelation is written in the language of the prophets and apostles, incorporating images that are refferred to in other places in the scriptures. If you watch for those you will get clues from the Spirit as to what He wants you to see.
An example;
In Rev 10 there is a giant messenger "coming down from heaven", putting one foot one the land and one on the sea. He is clothed in the clouds and there is a rainbow over his head and his face shines like the sun. in his hand is a little scroll in his hand, which John is told to eat, and it is sweet in his mouth but bitter in his belly. Then he is told to prophesy.
What the Spirit speaks to me from this is as follows- let anyone benefit from my "hearing" or not, as they are led.
If you look up "coming down from heaven" you will see that Jesus is the bread that "comes down from heaven". The Bride, the holy city, is "coming down from heaven" at the end of revelation. Jesus prays, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" and to me, coming down from heaven means heavenly realities manifesting in the earthly realm- again, "unveiling". When Jesus returns the "veil of the heavens will be rolled back like a scroll and the sign of the son of man will appear in the heavens". Isaiah says, "Upon this mountain I will remove the covering(veil) that is over the peoples".
So through these and other verses I see that first off, this messenger is "coming down from heaven" a manifestation on earth, as Jesus was in time, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" 1 Pet 1:20- and I groan inwardly, eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God(Rom 8). I intercede for the body of Christ in my generation, its edification and manifestation.
In Hebrews we read that we are, surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses", so as the messenger is clothed in the cloud, I see the revelation of Jesus in His ecclesia. He is "coming in the clouds, 10,000's of 10,000's of His righteous ones."
His feet are as pillars of fire, one on the land(past) one on the sea(future). He has a rainbow upon His head. In Ephesians 1 we are told Jesus is "Head over all things to the ecclesia, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all". We are "seated in Christ in the heavenly realms". In Ezekiel and in Revelations we see Jesus enthroned with a rainbow around the throne. We are seeing the "one new man" as "many sons unto glory".
The angel roars like a lion and the seven thunders come out of his mouth but John is told to "seal them up", even as he was told to "break the seals" earlier in revelation.
John is then told to take the scroll and eat it, and as Ezekiel before him, it is "sweet in his mouth but bitter in his belly", and after eating, he must prophesy.
The prophetic word is sweet in our mouths( a joy to receive, to have unlocked, to understand), but once ingested(easy) it must be digested(hard) and there is a price to pay in sharing the sufferings of Christ before we can truly "Prophesy". Before we can truly, "come down out of heaven" in our time, and be an "unveiling of Jesus Christ" in our generation. "If we suffer with Him we be glorified with Him". "I count not the sufferings of this present time to compare with the glory to be revealed"(Rom 8)
This messenger has a face that shines like the sun- as we see Jesus has in Rev 1, another clue to the identity of this messenger, whose head is in heaven, surrounded by a rainbow and face shining like the sun. Christ in you, the hope of glory.
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God(eaten and digested). On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God(the prophetic word lived, then spoken). 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost/veiled). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.
We carry the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ, the image of God.
I see Rev 10 as a fulfillment of Eph 4, the "one new man" revealed as the many membered "body of Christ" under His Headship, transforming the world, ""for the whole creation groans awaiting eagerly the revelation of the sons of God, who will set the creation "free from futility into the glorious liberty of the sons of God" and the suffering we endure to become a part of this work, as overcomers.
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
I must eat and digest(become strengthed in my inner man) the words of Christ so that He may be unveiled through me, and we must do so together, speaking the truth in love, building up the body, becoming mature unto full stature.
Eph 314 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations [n]forever and ever. Amen.
Ephesians, BTW, carries many keys to understanding Revelation, imo.
It says in Revelations 21:4 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.'
This is a positive scripture verse. What does it mean? Is it when everyone is saved and reconciled to God?
"Everyone is saved and reconciled to God" at the consummation of the eons.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)