OWLAM OLAM OLAWM

[micah7:9]

Thanks fellas.....ya'all are far way deeper into whatever is or ain't for my little mind to gather. For me it started out helpful but turned into an horizon of ages. No offence, but i just got real confused and didn't learn much, but then again I am slow to pick up.  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Well, not every discussion is fruitful for everyone. Some discussions are fruitful for no one LOL. I put it out there because "olam" has been a continuing study of mine, so it was at least enjoyable for me,  :Peace2:

"And thats all I have to say about that" ;o)

[eaglesway]

From aion-aionios by John Wesley Hanson

"The word that is rendered aiõn-aiõnios in the Greek Septuagint, and everlasting, eternal, etc., in the English Bible, is õlam, in the original Hebrew Scriptures, derived from olm to cover, or conceal. It literally means hidden, unknown, and, when applied to time, it signifies indefinite duration, whether past or future. Thus, the hills are said to exist from olam. As the Hebrew knew that they had a beginning with the creation of the earth, and would end with its destruction, of course he did not mean to say that the hills are literally everlasting when he termed them olamic. As he knew that they had a beginning, so he knew they would have an end; but as the period of their duration was unknown, he said they were from olam. The word is used in one text in both a limited and unlimited sense; and it signifies in one case only three days and three nights."

Hanson might not have agreed with me that olam can include everlasting. I might not be correct about that, and i dont think it can be absolutely proved either way. But he definitely agreed that olam is the root of aion/aionian and that it cannot be limited to meaning an "age".

From Andrew Jukes, The Names of God,  - chapter "El Olam"

"The word "Olam" has two senses, though the connexion between the two is obvious. Its first and original sense is to "conceal," or "hide," or something "hidden."

Jukes however definitely agrees with Seth's position and defines El Olam as "God of the age".

"Hence it came to mean "time hidden from man," or "time indefinite"........  But that strictly speaking it expresses a limited time is clear, not only from many passages where the time referred to can only be a life-time, or till the year of Jubilee, or for the period of the Jewish dispensation, but from other passages, where the word is redoubled or used in the plural, (which it could not be if it meant "for ever,") where its meaning is "for ages," or "from age to age."

My basis for believing "olam" includes etrnity is simply that eternity is also "hidden from man"....."concealed"....unknowable". I would not make that a critical issue of that tho- my main emphasis is that Olam may be 3 days to age-during, so aionian kolassis may last for some 3 days(just an example) and for some 1000 years(just an example). It is unknowable in this present age.

Many stripes, few stripes.

Jukes however agrees that olam/aion is not limited in meaning to "age".....

"We find the word(olam) again in Hannah's utterance, where she says, "I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and abide there for ever;" words which she afterwards explains by saying, "As long as he liveth, he shall be lent unto the Lord" (1 Sam. 1:22, 28). So again Achish says of David, when he came to Gath, "He shall be my servant for ever" (1 Sam. 27:12). The same word is sometimes simply translated "time," as in the law of redemption of inheritances, where we read, that "the houses in their cities the Levites may redeem at any "time"(olam) (Lev. 25:32).

In Lev 25:32 olam simply means a time of appointed redemption, indefinite because it was whenever a Levite chose to redeem it, a randomly selected appointment, of no significant duration in this case, being "olam"

However, Hanson agrees with Seth about olam not including eternity here(I love to thow the monkey wrench into my own works)

"There is no evidence that any words in the Old Testament implying duration refer to the future' life of man. Neither is it certain that the ancients, by the terms of duration which they employed to describe the Divine existence, fully comprehended the. idea of interminable existence. Indeed, this is an idea beyond the reach of any human intelligence."

I disagree with him only on this basis. The fact that he says there is no evidence that supports the ancients fully is an opinion I dont see confirmed in scripture. It appears to me that Isaiah and the Psalmist and other OT writers did comprehend that God endures forever- and I dont think there is any novelty to that thought, nor do I think we are more advanced than the prophets in our comprehension of the spiritual dimensions of God. In Isaiah 43:10 YHWH says, "before me there was no god formed and there will be no gods after me", meaning, imo, that YHWH is everlasting- the gods of the nations fleeting.

I apologize if these things are not fruitful or interesting to some. I find it fascinating. :o)

[rosered]

 
I find it amazing  too,  John ,  Because it was ALWAYS  a mystery to me 

I could never understand how one would get   eternal life and the other not get  eternal   destruction and fire   but only for a certain duration ?

  It just did not make any sense  ,  why God would let some have  LIFE and some suffer forever ?   , after all..."It is Him  completely whom    changes us  .

All you have to be is be desiring to change , asking for His help and wanting to please Him  , but Him alone gives the increase ..

[micah7:9]

Well, not every discussion is fruitful for everyone. Some discussions are fruitful for no one LOL. I put it out there because "olam" has been a continuing study of mine, so it was at least enjoyable for me,  :Peace2:

"And thats all I have to say about that" ;o)

I really meant no offense and I am leaning more to the view you my friend have put forth, not that Seth and Tom are not offering good points. Last year I only received 3 peaches on my tree...and bumped the tree with my mower and all 3 fell before ripening. :sigh:

[Psalm91:4]

But look at the bright side....you could have had three more peach trees if you planted those peaches that fell to the ground!   :)   :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Last year I only received 3 peaches on my tree...and bumped the tree with my mower and all 3 fell before ripening. :sigh:

did you ripen them on the windowsill? :smile:
                   peaches! :cloud9:

[micah7:9]

Last year I only received 3 peaches on my tree...and bumped the tree with my mower and all 3 fell before ripening. :sigh:

did you ripen them on the windowsill? :smile:
                   peaches! :cloud9:

Peaches do not ripen after picked, believe it.

[micah7:9]

But look at the bright side....you could have had three more peach trees if you planted those peaches that fell to the ground!   :)   :dsunny:

No worries... I have about 35 this year! :dsunny:

[Tom]

I figured you believe eternity is included because it is also hidden. I think there's the possibility that our whole perception of reality is just a hallucination, but the truth is actually "hidden from man"..."concealed"..."unknowable" as you say just as the whole story about God and Jesus Christ could be fantasy as far as we know and as the atheists claim. We only have information from various sources that we have to decide is either credible of not. I personally believe that scripture is inspired by a spirit entity we call God, but that's just my belief or faith. I don't believe faith is "substance" as the King James Version says, but an "assumption." 

"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed." (Hebrews 11:1)

I think the ancient understanding of "olam" and "aion" was indefinite yet finite duration, but I wasn't there then. So I don't know for sure, but what I think it correctly means now is indefinite finite duration. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that makes more sense when applied to what we know about scripture than the orthodox theology of eternal anything. I think only God is "eternal," but scripture doesn't even use that word because scripture is concerned with eonian time. I know someone may try to bring up "aidios" in Romans 1:20, but I think that word has been misinterpreted by the King James Version and actually means "imperceptible" not "eternal." See the attachment. Our perception of reality could be an illusion, a computer simulation, or a hologram, but we can't know for sure because the truth is "hidden from man"..."concealed"..."unknowable" as you say. You could say anything is possible because we can't know everything. I think we have to make an intelligent decision based on all the information we have, and it seems to me that scripture is concerned with eonian time which is finite even though the end is not in view.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Psalm91:4]

I want one.   :)    I luv homegrown fruit. :friendstu:

[marie glen]

Many stripes, few stripes.

I apologize if these things are not fruitful or interesting to some. I find it fascinating. :o)

:goodpost: :goodpost: I find it fascinating too.. sometimes it seems to me as though the Hebrew and the Greek, views and speech, are opposites.. Hebrew being down to earth (or so it seems to me) and the tense is one of action.. (I read that recently and it rang true to me) whereas the Greek is more 'flighty'? and the tense is always present.. not often "did" but "is doing" for example, such as "be filled with the Spirit" is more accurately "be being filled with the Spirit"..

I find it fascinating too the different ways in which the Father speaks and teaches or makes apparent. How is it possible to read a book for thirty, forty years, and over the course of a lifetime and it's just as exciting after forty years, and perhaps even more so!

It's also interesting to hear other brothers and sisters views on things.. all this works together to make things very interesting.. Not `boring` as some would view the christian life..

"Many stripes, few stripes" I have never thought of in terms of time, very interesting. I've always thought of it as referring to the depth of remorse and regret one will feel when faced with the stark reality of God's pure and holy nature and one's own deplorable (lower nature/often translated, flesh) condition.. And now of course, I see that deeper remorse (stripes) would likely take longer..

I find it interesting how perceptions differ.. And I think the 'end' whole picture of most things will consist of most of these differing views together.. like facets, rather than how humans easily perceive things as a question of either/or.. one view `right`, another `wrong`..

I think the Hebrew is more grounded in truth than the Greek, so I appreciate a word study on "Olam" as compared to aionian..  :Chinscratch: very interesting!

[marie glen]

Last year I only received 3 peaches on my tree...and bumped the tree with my mower and all 3 fell before ripening. :sigh:

did you ripen them on the windowsill? :smile:
                   peaches! :cloud9:

Peaches do not ripen after picked, believe it.

that's too bad! :( the hard ones I can get from the grocery store do.. but of course they are never as good!

[gregoryfl]

It is truly good to see discussions of difference done in an amiable way. One of the things I have been seeing as one who is literally studying every word and every letter, book by book, is that many of these concepts (although deep and vast), at their core, are so extremely simple even a young little child can grasp that core. Then, from that core, they can spend a lifetime exploring the deepness and vastness of it all.

I think of a parents love for their little child. That child responds to something it can grasp, even though there is a greater depth and vastness to a parents love that the child will only grow to appreciate over time.

I was seeing this every so strongly as I was reading through the various thoughts on this subject. There is a basic, core, simple meaning to, not only the word olam, but also all of it's derivatives. Considering all of those gives a foundational understanding from which to explore the deeper concepts of the word, from the simple to the complex.

Ronen

[rosered]

It is truly good to see discussions of difference done in an amiable way. One of the things I have been seeing as one who is literally studying every word and every letter, book by book, is that many of these concepts (although deep and vast), at their core, are so extremely simple even a young little child can grasp that core. Then, from that core, they can spend a lifetime exploring the deepness and vastness of it all.

I think of a parents love for their little child. That child responds to something it can grasp, even though there is a greater depth and vastness to a parents love that the child will only grow to appreciate over time.

I was seeing this every so strongly as I was reading through the various thoughts on this subject. There is a basic, core, simple meaning to, not only the word olam, but also all of it's derivatives. Considering all of those gives a foundational understanding from which to explore the deeper concepts of the word, from the simple to the complex.

Ronen

I am one of the simple and child like ones  bro     ,  so much more   we all are  certain,  GOD WILLING   :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

I figured you believe eternity is included because it is also hidden. I think there's the possibility that our whole perception of reality is just a hallucination, but the truth is actually "hidden from man"..."concealed"..."unknowable" as you say just as the whole story about God and Jesus Christ could be fantasy as far as we know and as the atheists claim. We only have information from various sources that we have to decide is either credible of not. I personally believe that scripture is inspired by a spirit entity we call God, but that's just my belief or faith. I don't believe faith is "substance" as the King James Version says, but an "assumption." 

"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed." (Hebrews 11:1)

I think the ancient understanding of "olam" and "aion" was indefinite yet finite duration, but I wasn't there then. So I don't know for sure, but what I think it correctly means now is indefinite finite duration. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that makes more sense when applied to what we know about scripture than the orthodox theology of eternal anything. I think only God is "eternal," but scripture doesn't even use that word because scripture is concerned with eonian time. I know someone may try to bring up "aidios" in Romans 1:20, but I think that word has been misinterpreted by the King James Version and actually means "imperceptible" not "eternal." See the attachment. Our perception of reality could be an illusion, a computer simulation, or a hologram, but we can't know for sure because the truth is "hidden from man"..."concealed"..."unknowable" as you say. You could say anything is possible because we can't know everything. I think we have to make an intelligent decision based on all the information we have, and it seems to me that scripture is concerned with eonian time which is finite even though the end is not in view.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I understand your point of view. God is aionian, and God is olam. He is El Olam. "Who has known the mind of the Lord"..."His ways are past finding out".

This does not mean we cannot know God, nor does it mean we can't know anything about YHWH.... "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son."

It simply means there are things we cannot contain, or fully comprehend- "seen through a glass darkly". There are things in God beyond our knowing. There are things in the ages to come we cannot see yet. Things far off. Things beyond our horizons. But we do know and have full asurance that God is love, and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.

[eaglesway]

I think the Hebrew is more grounded in truth than the Greek, so I appreciate a word study on "Olam" as compared to aionian..  :Chinscratch: very interesting!

I have the same opinion about Greek and Hebrew. That perception informs my opinions about scripture, because I have always felt that the scriptures are spoken through the Hebrew mind set- as Paul said, they were given the oracles of God, and in my(minority) opinion, Jesus and the spostles all thought as Hebrews, illuminated by the God of the Hebrews and His Messiah. The inclusion of the Gentiles into the olive tree does not change the Root. The Root changes the Gentiles(or it ought to :o)

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: I agree! I think we will all be Israel.. in Jesus the ROCK.. the notion feels SOLID to me :smile:


..I wonder if anyone has posted this? Tom told me where to get this program a little while ago.. free and awesome..

this is the greek.. Matthew 25:46


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Tom]

Marie, click on the small plus sign in the upper right corner twice, and you should see two more choices available for comparison. If you've installed all three modules, you will be able to compare the Authorized Version (King James), which you have, along with Young's Literal Translation and the Concordant Literal Version simply by right clicking on each set of initials and changing them to arrange in whatever order you choose. See the attachment.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Tom]

You can also click on any word of the the ultra-literal translation to get a pop up of the Strong's number which you can bring up in the box on the upper right by clicking on the number, but remember that's just the King James concordance. I think a more accurate concordance can be found at the end of the Concordant Literal New Testament.

[Tom]

Another thing to keep in mind when using the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer is the use of the Textus Receptus which means you'll see a few things in the ancient text and ultra-literal translation that aren't in the Concordant Version because the earlier Greek manuscripts are considered to be more authentic. They ran into a copyright problem awhile ago for using another manuscript. I've read that the Roman Catholic Church conned Erasmus into including the adulterated language of 1 John 5:7 by suddenly producing a manuscript that had it because he refused to do so on the grounds that it wasn't in the Greek manuscripts. That's not the only place the church committed forgery in the translation of scripture as evidenced by "Gehenna" being replaced by "hell" twelve times. After the church couldn't suppress scripture by killing people with fire by burning them at the stake, it just decided to change scripture to conform to its doctrine. That's why it's important to read an accurate translation to get the truth, and it's necessary to keep in mind that the charge of heresy against those of us who believe an accurate translation of scripture is invalid because, despite the fact that we don't conform to church doctrine, it is the church that does not conform to the word of God.

[Tom]

Here is the link for anybody else that wants to download the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

The Commentary Browser synchronizes with it if anybody is interested.

http://www.scripture4all.org/cbrowser/cbrowser.htm

When you download the ISA, make sure you get all three modules. The Authorized Version (King James) is with the main module, but you need to download Young's Literal Translation and the Concordant Literal Version right after it.

This next link is to a page with another handy digital tool, the URsearch program, which is a search engine of back issues of the magazine published by the Concordant folks for over a hundred years. Some issues are also included as PDF files.

http://concordant.org/ur/index.html

This next link has their Old & New Testaments in PDF files.

http://concordant.org/online/index.html

All this stuff is free, and it's helpful information for studying scripture.

You may notice a few typos in the Old Testament section of the CLV module of the ISA because the author hasn't gotten a chance to edit it yet because he's working on a Concordant Version module for eSword right now. The ones out there now weren't produced by the Concordant folks and need to be replaced because they were made even before the latest edition of the New Testament section.

If anybody is interested, the Concordant folks have a new hard copy version of the Old Testament for sale on this page.

http://concordant.org/catalog/index.html

[micah7:9]

The way I understand is right now is I am aionian and I await olam. But that is just me. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Tom]

Right now I think I'm living and dying in the third and wicked eon, but, when I'm vivified, I'll be experiencing eonian life for real for the next two eons and immortality beyond the consummation of the eons.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[rosered]

I do beilive Jesus is judging right now   . not some other eon    or age 

HE COME TO SHOW US     , or there would be no need for Him to have come , like it was in the times of old     

  we have no  more  excuse   
...
  this is the reason the earth/world  is in total chaos      and  why were are told to read with  great diligence   


I believe      the race Paul spoke of   is overcoming IN    the  examples  of   7 churches   /   lampstands    and  7 times brighter Light as the rewards are   in them  7  and the correction /judgments  as well     

the rewards    the crown of Life , the iron   rod , hidden   manna , new name , white stone   , sitting on the throne with Him , white garments , not harmed by the second death

the punishments     taking away your lamp/ light , the second death  and being harmed by it  , Jesus himself will war against you with the Sword of his mouth
  for a few examples   
  It sounds like it an overcoming  now thing to me , not some other   time    or place







in Rev 2 24 "But ·others [the rest] of you in Thyatira have not followed her teaching and have not learned what some call Satan's deep secrets. I say to you that I will not put any other ·load [burden] on you. 25 Only ·continue in your loyalty [L hold fast to what you have] until I come.

26 "I will give ·power [authority] over the nations to everyone who ·wins the victory [overcomes; conquers] and ·continues to be obedient to me [or keeps working for me; L keeps/obeys my works] until the end.

27 '·You [L he; C the one who overcomes] will ·rule over [L shepherd] them with an iron ·rod [or scepter],
    ·as when pottery is broken into pieces [or and will break them into pieces like pottery; Ps. 2:9].'
28 This is the same ·power [authority] I received from my Father. I will also give him the morning star [C usually the planet Venus as seen before sunrise, but here symbolically Christ at his return; 22:16; Num. 24:17; 2 Pet. 1:19]. 29 Everyone who has ears should ·listen to [hear; obey] what the Spirit says to the churches.