Tentmaker Forum

I found this guys perspective interesting.  Wanted to see if it held water with you who study these things more then I.

http://www.owlam.com/

Thanks

Hi ed. I read it thoroughly and I disagree with his premise and his conclusion. He uses Strong as a reference- but then invalidates Strong by saying this.

quote
Strong#5769‛ôlâm ‛ôlâmo-lawm', o-lawm' From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

"The only word that is useful in the above attempt to define Olam is the word Concealed. A Hebrew man or woman in order to conceal themselves would tie or attach a cloth around their head. We commonly call this a veil today. The man or woman would then be joined or yoked with the cloth veil.  Olam is the yoking, binding, tieing  uniting, fastening, joining and weaving."

He uses the supposed fact that a Hebrew man or woman would conceal themselves with a veil by tying/yoking it- to assert that the only part of meaning Strong got right was "conceal" which to this guy means "yoked" because a Hebrew supposedly hid by "tying a veil".

This is disconnective reasoning. How the person concealed themselves is immaterial- the word means "vanishing point"- an unseen point, and this is why olam can be and is used in scripture to express, distant time past, distant time future, the world to come, an indefinite period of time, etc.

The means of "vanishing", "hiding" or "concealing" has no impact on the meaning of olam.

If I hide behind a tree, olam will not mean tree, or crouch, it will still mean hidden. ;o)

I don't look at Strong's much anymore because it's the King James concordance, and I think the Hebrew "olam" corresponds to the Greek "aion," both meaning a period of time not endless time.

Actually it is somewhat different than aion. Olam is defined as an indefinite time. It is a word that is specifically defined in relationship with the subject word it is attached to- detrmined in context rather than an absolute stand alone meaning.

Aionios is the NT word the Greeks used to translate olam, and I think it is very profitable to look at olam as the root, in interpreting aion.

Olam is used nearly 500 times in the OT and has a pretty wide variety of application depending on the context- all referencing an indefinite period of time- sometimes with a beginning and an end, sometimes not.

"men of old" (olam= of old describing men of distant time past) Gen

"you will put an awl through his ear and he shall be your slave forever"(olam= till he dies or you set him free) Lev

The everlastng God (olam= the time transcendant duration of God's life) Psalms

Olam is used nearly 500 times in the OT and has a pretty wide variety of application depending on the context- all referencing an indefinite period of time- sometimes with a beginning and an end, sometimes not.

Anyone can compare any Greek dictionary, lexicon or interlinear to any Hebrew one to confirm this.

The Greek "aion" is the same. It is an "indefinite" period of time relative to the context. It can be the length of a man's life, the next  thousand year eon, or longer. We don't know how long the last eon will be or even how long this one will last. The important thing is that both "olam" and "aion" refer to a period of time not infinite time as "eternal" does. I believe we will all eventually receive "immortality" which means life without death from then on or forever after that, but I believe only God has "eternal life" because he always was, is, and will be. I think it is "immortality" that people are referring to when they say "eternal life," but we all had a beginning. So I don't think we will have "eternal life," just "immortality." I hope you don't think I'm "nit picking" again, bro, or "quibbling," because I think there's a difference. That's why I try not to use the King James lingo that's relative to the King James portrayal of God's ultimate plan because it confuses the issue. I understand why most people do though.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

No Tom, I don't think you are nit-picking LOL

I just think aionian life is a gift of immortality, and I recognize the difference you are seeing between eternal life and immortality and tho I am not sure I agree, I don't need to debate such a fine line of distinction- that would be quibbling :o)

 :LH:

  quibble over kibble  :OhNo:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kibble

 :laughing7:

Well, I'm glad my scribblin isn't causin quibblin.

Just tossing in another viewpoint. I think immortality is different from aionios zoe (which I believe translates to life of the age), though coming from the same source. I think life is referring to knowledge of God through the Spirit, whereas immortality is lacking mortality granted through the same.

I think immortality is simply the opposite of mortality meaning not subject to death. I think mortals are subject to death, but spirit beings are not. That's why the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons in the lake of fire while mortals will be dead. I think those of us in the body of Christ will have immortality during eonian life for the next two eons and beyond. I think eonian life refers to life during the last two eons. I think unbelievers will eventually have immortality when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons, but they will not experience eonian life because they will be dead in the lake of fire which scripture says is the second death. I think it is important to distinguish between eonian life and eternal life which I think is a mistranslation. Eonian life will come to an end, but I think eternal life is life that has always been and will always be which is why I think people who use that phrase are really referring to the immortality that all mankind will eventually experience but beginning at two different times. I think scripture tells us that believers will be vivified when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air. The word "vivified," used in the Concordant Version, means to make alive with immortality. I believe God is the savior of all mankind, and all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God so that God may be all in all.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:42-55)

"Contend the ideal contest of the faith. Get hold of eonian life, for which you were called, and you avow the ideal avowal in the sight of many witnesses. I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:12-16)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Well the Bible defines aionios life as to know God and to be in God, to abide in him. In that respect, I do not believe aionios life will end, but because I believe immortality will be added. I believe the Spirit gives all manner of various gifts, and immortality and knowing God are two.

I think life during the last two eons will end when all the eons have ended, but immortality means life will continue after the eons.

I think the point is that life doesn't end with the eons because of immortality.

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of Godwho has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,  but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

It seems to me that immortality is a part of the revelation of Jesus Christ, tied to the abolition of death, and part of our inheritance.

1 Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

"aionion zoe" lasts forever, because Jesus said of it, He that believes in me shall never die. Never dying means living forever, experiencing everlasting life. The exact meaning of the word immortal is "never dying"

God is immortal, immortals do not die. God is also eternal, outside time- having no beginning. To be immortal does not have to do with "having no beginning". It has to do with "not dying". God has given the promise of immortality to man in Jesus Christ. Whatever will not die is immortal. I think after the resurrection we will be immortal and eventually every living being will be immortal.

In literature and mythology immortals are usually born or created, but do not die..... "not dying" (im mortalis)

In English(as I see it)

To be eternal has to do with "having no beginningor end, time transcendant" (imo)

So to me, everlasting can mean "having a beginning and lasting forever"

immortal can mean "having a beginning but never dying"


But these are English meanings, and they are valid because the spiritual thoughts behind them are real. But those distinctions are not always clearly made in Hebrew or Greek. Yet, we still try to determine whether or not those particular thoughts were what was meant in usages of olam and aion/aionian in particular verses. In the languages(Hebrew and Greek) there was not absolute definition. So we have to give attention to context. The Hebrews simply doubled up olam, "olam olam" to express the ideas of everlasting, eternal, forever, etc.

I think to live olam olam, or eons of eons is, in meaning- is the same as everlasting. It was the Greek and Hebrew way of expressing concepts like everlasting or forever. So there is a difference between "eis tov aion" -to the age- and "tou aionios ton aionion"- to the age of the ages, and "eis tous aionas"-to(into, through) the ages in Greek, but not that much distinction was given in Hebrew.

Conceptually, I agree that (in our language), to be eternal is different than to be everlasting. Everlasting can have a beginning. A distinction could be made that eternal transcends time, having no beginning and no end- but this distinction is not clearly made in the Hebrew or even the Greek language, with the exception that they understood there own context better than we do so........

We have to trust the Holy Spirit to reveal it from the context, comparing spiritual words with spiritual thoughts- our own thoughts, in our own language, because that is how God speaks to us(1 Cor 2)  :o)

Quote from: Tom on April 30, 2015, 08:09:42 PM
I think life during the last two eons will end when all the eons have ended, but immortality means life will continue after the eons.

Will we still know God and still be in God?

Absolutely ! :banana:

He that believes in me shall never die :o)

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and aionios-life.

John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.

There's nothing in those definitions about two future aions. That's not to say that there are not going to be two future aions, just that it wasn't included in these definitions.

If I go ONLY by what the Bible says is aionios life (excluding opinions), I am left with the notion that as long as one fits the definition of "that we may know him, and we are in him" then aionios life will carry on past two future ages, and in fact we also have received it now in this present age. That's just how I look at it.

I'm not saying don't have opinions, but I choose simply to go by what the Bible literally defines aionios zoe as being and not go beyond that.

Of course God will be all in all at the end of the eons and beyond due to our immortality. Each eon is a period of time which has a beginning and an end, and I think all the eons together are just a temporary period of time. I don't know how or even if we will perceive time after the eons, but I think believers will experience immortality for the last two eons and beyond. That's the difference between us an unbelievers. We have been promised eonian life, but all mankind will receive immortality, just at different times. The Greek "aionion" is the adjective of "aion," which is a period of time. So "aionion" is about "aion" meaning life that is of the eon or eons. My translation does not say "never die," and I've mentioned before that I think that's one of the places that the King James causes confusion. See the attachment. I do not believe that eonian life lasts forever because the eons will end, but our life won't after we're immortalized even though we may have died before we're snatched away to meet Christ in the air.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[attachment deleted by admin]

That's why, even though I've been accused of "nit-picking," I think it's necessary to read an accurate translation of scripture, and "have a pattern of sound words" (2 Timothy 1:13). There's a big difference between "never" and "for the eon."

PS: If you say, "eventually every living being will be immortal," we're going to have to start talking about skeeters again.

Tom, if you can find a scripture that says "and this is aionios life: being literally alive for two future aions" then present it. But for now, I believe the Bible explicitly and plainly defines it as "to know him" and "be in him." I know that doesn't fit very well with a "literal" viewpoint, but nothing in the Bible says that God has to define his own terminology from that viewpoint.

What is aionios life according to the Bible? To know God and to be in God. Did the apostles in the early church abide in God and know him? If the answer is yes, then they had aionios life already according to the Biblical definition, and did not need to wait for two future ages.

I understand your concept of present eonian life, and I think that's in the same sense that we're new creations now. I think that is figuratively speaking, but we'll also literally be new creations when we're changed to spiritual bodies and literally be alive through the eons of the eons regardless of how long the last eon is. We're told the next eon is a thousand years even though some say that's figurative language simply indicating a long time. I think life is what it is unless you're a zombie, and eonian simply describes whatever it is associated with as pertaining to the eon or eons because it is the adjective of eon. You could interpret eonian life strictly figuratively if you want to, but it seems to me it can be interpreted both ways. The thing is that eonian is simply the adjective of eon meaning it just describes something about the eon or eons. It could be eonian life or eonian chastening or eonian whatever. I don't think most folks here believe eonian chastening will last forever even though there's disagreement about exactly what that chastening applies to, either nations or individuals a thousand years later. I think scripture is concerned with the eons, not eternity. We're told at the beginning of Genesis about the beginning of the eons, and we're also told by Paul about the end of the eons. We don't know what God was up to before he created the eons. He might have been taking a long nap because he knew we'd be making him crazy, but the point is that we're not told about what happened before the eons or what will happen after the eons except that all mankind will never die again, all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God, and God will be all in all. I don't know about the rest of you, but that's enough for me because I think that covers it all. There will be no more evil or death, and we'll get to see all our loved ones again, even those who died as unbelievers. I'd say it's not a problem to trust God about the program after the eons because it's probably going to be an amazing experience!

  AWESOME      :goodpost:  and wholeheartedly agree   John :HeartThrob:
 

Thanks Seth  and  Tom   for your input very helpful     :icon_flower: 

I always  believed those under the law    mouths must be stopped , that age / eon  is  fading away    and mortality is the effect      Romans 3 ...18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES." 19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

   Everyone dies in the knowledge of sin  , I do believe this is why Paul called this the ministration of death  , Those in Christ are to consider themselves dead to the world , that being  overcoming the world though Jesus Christ    , whom has  overcome the world  and death       in other words        and also am convinced some are still under the law   being the examples    of the scribes readers   of the word  but not doers    Pharisees    ,  the separatist     and the hypocrites    ,  they tell you right but no not live it , they talk the talk but do not walk  the walk in the SPIRIT  of Life ......   Call Him   by name only but does not know them ....


But not all   are  , we have those in Christ     ,   being in Him by the SPIRIT & TRUTH,   LAW OF LIBERTY    are reigning with Him now in the sense of this     ,, they have overcome the world     being set free  from the elemental things and binding of the law and heavy loads to hard to bear   and men teaching men    blind leading the blind ,works of their hands ,  The Spiritual  law   that is very contrary to the flesh and blood human    that has never been promised eternal life

Eternal Life is being in Jesus Christ     here and now and  in the  endless Life of   immortality     , being seated with Christ in heavenly places   is the ruling and reigning with Him to me   , because they do not dwell on and in the things of the world any longer but keep their minds on the things above   desiring the salvation of all mankind   , Paul gives excellent hints   and unfolds the mysteries   comparing the spiritual with spiritual and the scripture  to scripture
Jesus says    my yoke is easy and my burden is light and   He is lowly    and you will find rest for your souls /lives

 

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

       Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

       Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

       For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Because the Spirit and truth are doing the works in  and though you   , being anointed   by the HOLY SPIRIT         where all the gifts of God though Jesus Christ reside  , the rewards are with HIM    , IN THE SENSE HE IS   THE REWARD ! 

Holy Spirit and Word of God       ....     

   having the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father  both 

  Romans 8 9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,

if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness

Both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ being the regeneration of the HOLY SPIRIT     

     titus 3 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior   


These are very important  scriptures    to me  , that help us to see   having the  newness of Life that was promised long ago in the Old  that we now have  in the NEW and experience     right now to me     ... 

   :dsunny:


   

"From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." (Daniel 12:2)

But that's not the end of the story.


[attachment deleted by admin]

QuoteI understand your concept of present life eonian, and I think that's in the same sense that we're new creations now. I think that is figuratively speaking, but we'll also literally be new creations when we're changed to spiritual bodies and literally be alive through the eons of the eons regardless of how long the last eon is.

Right I agree with the fact that we will be made immortal. But the idea of "present life eonian" is not MY concept, brother. I'm going off how the Bible defines it.

1 John 3
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

This is talking about present day aionios life. So, how is it my concept when the Bible defines it for us?

"This is aionios life: that they may know you"

Why must I go beyond that definition to say that aionios zoe is some future two-age dispensation, when the Bible never defines it that way, especially when that viewpoint says that eonian life will end.

If I say that eonian life will end and the Bible says that "eonian life" is to know God, then logically that means that someday I won't know God. Again, if we are getting "nit-picky" why should we go off the Biblical script and define aionios life as life within two future eons that will end?

QuoteWe're told the next eon is a thousand years even though some say that's figurative language simply indicating a long time. I think life is what it is unless you're a zombie, and eonian simply describes whatever it is associated with as pertaining to the eon or eons because it is the adjective of eon. You could interpret eonian life strictly figuratively if you want to, but it seems to me it can be interpreted both ways.

That's the thing Tom. I don't believe I need to interpret it. The Bible defines it. The Bible literally tells me what "aionios zoe" means, the intended meaning of the phrase. I am simply going by the definition it provides.

Quote from: Seth on April 30, 2015, 08:59:15 PM
Tom, if you can find a scripture that says "and this is aionios life: being literally alive for two future aions" then present it. But for now, I believe the Bible explicitly and plainly defines it as "to know him" and "be in him." I know that doesn't fit very well with a "literal" viewpoint, but nothing in the Bible says that God has to define his own terminology from that viewpoint.

What is aionios life according to the Bible? To know God and to be in God. Did the apostles in the early church abide in God and know him? If the answer is yes, then they had aionios life already according to the Biblical definition, and did not need to wait for two future ages.

  EXACTLY !!! :dsunny:    :goodpost:

Spirit and Truth     is  the concept of   true worship of the Living God    and  life immortal though Jesus Christ ..

   TO KNOW

  THE REAL GOD 1Co 1:24   But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Christ is the anointing  of God though HIS SON         
I have noticed many places when Paul says , The" Christ "     and places where he calls  Him ",Jesus Christ"      and places where He is called the", Lord Jesus Christ"   
  to me they are important  and specific    in meanings      Wisdom is justified of Her children   

  For me   I see the place  in  Revelation  11 where    begin to reign  many hold to the thought that Jesus  has not begun yet , But to me He began to reign  the moment    rising in Acts 1       in  Acts   2    when Jesus Christ by the HOLY SPIRIT     gave those gifts to mankind     

The Ascension
...10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
   
...16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.


18"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."...



  The same urgency  back  than when the scriptures were   written , hold the  same   wisdom and power of this day[a day is the 1000 Years and  1000 years is a day  in the eyes of the Lord ]   and age to me ..
 
   

Like I said, bro, figuratively speaking "proceeded out of death into life" because lots of souls that experienced that have died or are dying, but, when we're immortalized, it will be literal eonian life. That's why the doctrine of inherent immortality of the soul confuses the issue. I believe many saints have died and will die and be really dead, not alive in some other form of life, but the dead and living saints will be immortalized when Christ meets us in the air and begin to experience literal life for the remaining eonian time and beyond. I've got to take a break now to take my dad his meds and make sure he eats something. I'll be back in a little while.

 

I believe being in a glorified body   now is being in Christ Body of believers  , this is reigning in /with Christ now  to me   

The Body of Christ Works Together
12 A person's body is ·one thing [a unity; L one], but it has many parts.


Though there are many parts to a body, all those parts make only one body. Christ is like that also.

13 Some of us are Jews, and some are Greeks. Some of us are slaves, and some are free. But we were all baptized into one body ·through [by; in] one Spirit. And we were all made to ·share in [L drink of] the one Spirit.

14 [L For] The ·human body [L body] is not made up of one part, but of many.


15 The foot might say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not part of the body." But saying this would not stop the foot from being a part of the body.


16 The ear might say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not part of the body." But saying this would not stop the ear from being a part of the body.


17 If the whole body were an eye, ·it would not be able to [L how would it...?] hear. If the whole body were an ear, ·it would not be able to [L how would it...?] smell. If each part of the body were the same part, ·there would be no body [L where would the body be?]. But truly God put all the parts, each one of them, in the body as he wanted them.


20 So then there are many parts, but only one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the foot, "I don't need you!"

22 ·No! [L On the contrary,] Those parts of the body that seem to be the weaker are ·really necessary [essential; indispensable].

23 And the parts of the body we think are less ·deserving [honorable] are the parts to which we give ·the most [special; greater] honor. We ·give special respect to [or treat with special modesty] the parts ·we want to hide [that are shameful/unpresentable].

24 The more ·respectable [presentable] parts of our body need no special care. But God put the body together and gave ·more [special] honor to the parts that need it


25 so ·our body would not be divided [or there would be no division in the body]. God wanted the different parts to care the same for each other.

26 If one part of the body suffers, all the other parts suffer with it. Or if one part of our body is ·honored [glorified], all the other parts ·share its honor [L rejoice with it].

27 ·Together you [L You; C the Greek is plural] are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of that body.


28 In the church God has ·given a place first to [appointed/placed first] apostles, second to prophets, and third to teachers, then those who do ·miracles [acts of powers], those who have gifts of healing, those who can help others, those who are able to ·govern [lead], and those who can speak ·in different languages [or with ecstatic utterance; L different kinds of tongues; v. 10].


29 ·Not all are apostles [L Not all are apostles, are they? C vv. 29–30 are all rhetorical questions assuming a negative answer]. Not all are prophets. Not all are teachers. Not all do miracles.


30 Not all have gifts of healing. Not all speak ·in different languages [or with ecstatic utterance; L in tongues]. Not all interpret those ·languages [L tongues].


31 But ·you should truly want to have [eagerly desire; be zealous for] the greater gifts.

And now I will show you ·the best way of all [a better/superior way].


Part of the  learning experience is discerning the Body of Christ     :icon_flower:

Quote from: Tom on April 30, 2015, 10:00:29 PM
Like I said, bro, figuratively speaking "proceeded out of death into life" because lots of souls that experienced that have died or are dying, but, when we're immortalized, it will be literal eonian life. That's why the doctrine of inherent immortality of the soul confuses the issue. I believe many saints have died and will die and be really dead not alive in some other form of life, but the dead and living saints will be immortalized when Christ meets us in the air and begin to experience literal life for the remaining eonian time and beyond. I've got to take a break now to take my dad his meds and make sure he eats something. I'll be back in a little while.

I get it about the inherent immortality issue, and I agree with you about that. I just disagree that eonian life will end considering how the Bible defines eonian life. I know of no Biblical definition of it that relies on a "literal" or physical understanding of life. As Apostle John said, eonian life abides within.

"Verily, I am saying to you that there is no one who leaves a house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, on My account and on account of the evangel, who should not be getting back a hundredfold now, in this era, houses and brothers and sisters and mother and father and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the coming eon, life eonian." (Mark 10:29,30)

That speaks of life eonian in the coming eon. See the attachment for the difference in translations.

I believe that Christ spoke about having life without death in the future, and those he spoke to are all dead now until the time when they will be resurrected and immortalized to live "eonian life" and beyond. 

I'm sorry if I seem more incoherent than usual today. I've got a fever; my head feels like it's going to explode; and I'm having a hard time breathing. I'm hoping my 90 year old dad doesn't get whatever I have because, the last time he got sick, he had to spend a few days in the hospital.

I think eonian life will be experienced by those who have been immortalized, but the eons will eventually end at which time life during the eons, or eonian life, will end, but life will not because all mankind will have been immortalized. I think the eons had a beginning and will have an end. People die, but I believe all will eventually be given immortality. I think believers will experience that in the coming eons continuing beyond the end of the eons, and unbelievers will experience that beginning with the end of the eons when the last enemy, death, is abolished. That's why it's said that only believers will have eonian life. Unbelievers will be dead in the lake of fire during that time.

I understand the difference in interpretation of scripture with those who identify with Covenant Theology as opposed to Dispensationalism despite the fact that some may say they don't interpret scripture at all because they just believe what it says, but I think everybody interprets scripture according to what they believe. I'm not trying to put anybody down. I'm just offering my personal perspective. I know many people here believe they will never die, but I think an accurate translation of scripture says otherwise. I think the good news is, even though we are all dying and may eventually die, we will be roused from the dead and vivified just as Christ was. It just happens at two different times for believers and unbelievers. Scripture says we believers will be snatched away and vivified when Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers will be vivified at the consummation of the eons.

If you want to believe that you have eonian life and/or immortality now, that's your thing, but that's not how I see it. At least we all agree that God is the savior of all mankind, and all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[attachment deleted by admin]

Bro, my head's in a fog right now. Give me chapter and verse for your quote. I want to check it out.

"This is aionios life: that they may know you"

No worries, check out reply 18 and 26. Get better soon

Quote
I understand the difference in interpretation of scripture with those who identify with Covenant Theology as opposed to Dispensationism despite the fact that some may say they don't interpret scripture at all because they just believe what it says, but I think everybody interprets scripture according to what they believe. I'm not trying to put anybody down. I'm just offering my personal perspective. I know many people here believe they will never die, but I think an accurate translation of scripture says otherwise. I think the good news is, even though we are all dying and may eventually die, we will be roused from the dead and vivified just as Christ was. It just happens at two different times for believers and unbelievers. Scripture says we believers will be snatched away and vivified when Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers will be vivified at the consummation of the eons.

If you want to believe that you have eonian life and/or immortality now, that's your thing, but that's not how I see it. At least we all agree that God is the savior of all mankind, and all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all.

I do believe this mortal body dies , never will deny that !!
  Hope you start feeling  much better soon !! God bless

I may have interrupted you and Seth If I did I am sorry about that , its just some things become clear  to me when discussing them  ,

it just  like a   flash  its there !!   Have a good evening   folks  :friendstu:

It didn't feel like an interruption. It's not a PM thread after all. I haven't gotten a chance to read your replies yet.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on May 01, 2015, 12:30:36 AM
It didn't feel like an interruption. It's not a PM thread after all. I haven't gotten a chance to read your replies yet.  :HeartThrob:

  :friendstu: 

"These things speaks Jesus, and lifting His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, come has the hour. Glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son should be glorifying Thee, according as Thou givest Him authority over all flesh, that everything which Thou hast given to Him, He should be giving it to them, even life eonian. Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ." (John 17:1-3)

I think the context there is not that the literal definition of eonian life is the knowledge of God, but that eonian life is given that they may be knowing him.

"Yet we are aware that the Son of God is arriving, and has given us a comprehension, that we know the True One, and we are in the True One, in His Son, Jesus Christ. This One is the true God and life eonian." (1 John 5:20)

That verse is telling me that God is the source of life during the eons, but we should know that doesn't mean just for the duration of the eons because God transcends time and space.

I don't see those verses as literal definitions of eonian life. So I don't think it's a matter of my opinion vs. a definition in scripture as you say. Instead it seems to me to be a matter of two different interpretations of eonian life.

That was what I thought about the first reply you told me to check out. Now to the next one.

"We are aware that we have proceeded out of death into life, for we are loving our brethren. He who is not loving is remaining in death. Everyone who is hating his brother is a man-killer, and you are aware that no man-killer at all has life eonian remaining in him." (1 John 3:14,15)

I think he's speaking figuratively about "we have proceeded out of death into life" and "no man-killer at all has life eonian remaining in him."

I think Christ is talking about the eonian time when believers will have immortality, the next eon and the one after. Unfortunately the King James confuses the issue by translating "aion" "never" and "forever," but an accurate translation says "for the eon."

As I said before, I don't think the verses you quoted were a literal definition of eonian life. I think all the verses containing "for the eon" or "eonian life" refer to when we will have immortality. I know some folks think we have that now, but I don't. I don't think it's about what you see as a definition vs. just an opinion or interpretation. I think we just have different interpretations of eonian life. I think you're just interpreting some verses as a definition, but I don't see them that way. I don't think the end of the eons means you won't know God anymore as you say. I think the eons will end, but life won't because we will be immortalized then. So it's just life during the eons that will end but not life or our knowledge of God. We should have a much greater knowledge of God then because God will be all in all. I understand your interpretation, but I just don't share it. I'm not condemning you for believing so, but I speak what I believe. We both look at the same verses and have different interpretations. Someday we'll see what's up. Until then I guess we'll just continue to believe our own interpretations of scripture.

I think, if you want a true definition of the phrase "eonian life," all you have to do is break it down to each word's definition. I think "life" is the activity of spirit especially as manifested in the organic creation. I think "eonian" is the adjective form of "eon" which simply means it describes whatever it is relevant to such as "eonian chastening" or "eonian life." I think you need to discern which eon is being spoken of though, and I think Christ is speaking of the eon or eons when we'll have immortality when he speaks of eonian life.

I don't agree that I'm going "off the Biblical script" as you say. I just think you see your interpretation as a "definition" but my interpretation as just my opinion. I don't think your interpretation is a definition, just your perspective just as my interpretation is my perspective. I think everybody interprets scripture, and we all agree on some things and disagree on other things. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this as we sometimes do, but, like I always say, at least we agree that all mankind will eventually have immortality, and all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all. Peace, bro.

There was no interruption, sis, as far as I'm concerned. In my opinion everybody should be free to contribute. I like to hear what everybody has to say about anything even if I don't agree. I know you believe you'll never die, but I think that's coming from a King James perspective which ain't my thing anymore. When I say that, I'm not trying to offend folks who like that version. I used to be a die hard King James fan, but I'm not anymore. I think the "never die" thing is better translated "for the eon" rather than "never" because that's what the ancient text seems to indicate. So that's just something we have to agree to disagree about. I'm not trying to be disagreeable tonight just for the sake of making trouble. There are just some things that we see differently.

I hope I haven't been too confusing tonight trying to express my viewpoint. My head is really working with a diminished capacity due to a virus kickin my butt. God bless ya, and good night.

Quote"These things speaks Jesus, and lifting His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, come has the hour. Glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son should be glorifying Thee, according as Thou givest Him authority over all flesh, that everything which Thou hast given to Him, He should be giving it to them, even life eonian. Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ." (John 17:1-3)

I think the context there says not that the definition of eonian life is the knowledge of God but that eonian life is given that they may be knowing him.

"Yet we are aware that the Son of God is arriving, and has given us a comprehension, that we know the True One, and we are in the True One, in His Son, Jesus Christ. This One is the true God and life eonian." (1 John 5:20)

That verse is telling me that God is life during the eons because God is not only the source of our life but life itself that existed before the eons, exists during the eons, and will exist after the eons. As has been said before, God transcends time and space. He created time and space. So although he is eonian life, he is also life beyond the eons in the past and future.

If eonian life refers to literal life, Jesus wouldn't need to give it to us in this present age. We were already literally alive. That's why nonbelievers don't have eonian life.

Look at that bolded part. I agree. GOD IS EONIAN LIFE. That means that it is possible to have life without being immortal. The Bible doesn't say that "immortality is life" and you didn't say it either. The Bible says that GOD is life along with knowing him and abiding in him. That means if we have God we have life, even if we are mortal.

When Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life" he is defining HIMSELF as the life.
He does not says "immortality is the life."

If Jesus IS eonian life, is Jesus literal? If he is literal and we can have him now, then we have literal eonian life now by receiving him today. Not figurative, because Jesus isn't figurative.

That's why faith is necessary to receive life and we may have it now and without faith we don't. That means if we have Jesus (while mortal) we have eonian life and if we don't have Jesus we don't have life. That's regardless of whether we are literally alive. You must have faith to have life.

As a side note, I personally do not believe that time will end.

QuoteI don't see those verses as definitions of eonian life. I agree that we've received eonian life in the present but as a promise for the future when we will not die during the final two eons because we will have been immortalized. So we have it in a figurative sense now just as I said before about being a new creation figuratively now but will literally be so in the future when we're immortalized in spiritual bodies. So I don't think it's a matter of my opinion vs. a definition in scripture as you say. Instead it seems to me to be a matter of two different interpretations of eonian life.

The problem is that there is no explanation of eonian life that involves a literal death/life issue. All the explanations in the Bible about what eonian life is, has to do with ABIDING in God and knowing him. Life is in knowing God and abiding in him. This applies in ANY eon pre-resurrection.

Quote"We are aware that we have proceeded out of death into life, for we are loving our brethren. He who is not loving is remaining in death. Everyone who is hating his brother is a man-killer, and you are aware that no man-killer at all has life eonian remaining in him." (1 John 3:14,15)

I think he's speaking figuratively about "we have proceeded out of death into life" and "no man-killer at all has life eonian remaining in him."

I think you could say we literally have life eonian if you're talking about simply being alive during the eons, but I don't think that's what Christ is talking about when he's talking about eonian life or living "for the eon." I think he's talking about the eon when there will be immortality, the next eon and the one after. Unfortunately the King James confuses the issue by translating "aion" "never" and "forever," but a concordant literal translation says "for the eon."

If the Bible says that God is eonian life and abiding in God and knowing him is having life, then that would mean Christ was talking about Pentecost and beyond, rather than talking about immortality.

Again, if "eonian life" refers to being literally alive, we would have received the promise without needing faith.

QuoteI think you're just interpreting some verses as a definition, but I don't see them that way. I don't think the end of the eons means you won't know God anymore as you say.

Whether you call it a "definition" or not, they are the only scriptures that explicitly say "this is aionios life" and then provide the information to explain. "This is aionios life" What is aionios life? This: that we may know him and we are in him. That is God and aionios life.

That is an explanation of what aionios life is. I see nothing in there about immortality or future eons. I just see that God is our life, and that knowing him is life, and that life abides within and that we have passed from death to life if we love the brethren.

Eonian life is a categorization of life. It can be literal, because it is what it is and it is real- it is just not mortal life. It is not life in Adam, it is life in Christ. Something can be literal and spiritual at the same time, if the thought is an actual representation of a spiritual reality.

I don't see a difference between spiritual and literal, and maybe is is just how we see words. Maybe a difference between literal and figurative. When Jesus says "I am the life," then that is what I think eonian life is, both literal and spiritual. In other words, I don't see Jesus as figurative life. I see him as in the manner John spoke about, that eonian life is within us, and that's Christ, the Spirit.

When Apostle John says that we know we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers and that no murderer has eonian life within them, he means they have literally not received the Holy Spirit. They have not received the literal indwelling of Christ.

When Jesus says that he is given all authority to give eonian life to all who were given to him, and this is eonian life, that they may know you, the true God, how do we know God? What did Jesus come to give? What was the promise? The Holy Spirit. The Bible says that Jesus IS life, and that Jesus HAS immortality. It never says that "the immortality is eonian life." Both life and immortality are brought to light through the gospel (2 tim 1:10). And for those seeking after immortality, God gives eonian life (Romans 2:6-7). In other words, if we seek after immortality, glory and honor, God will give the indwelling of the spirit, that we may know him.

I'm not thinking clearly today because I've been fighting a virus for a few days, but I was thinking about something Peter said that kind of relates to our discussion.

"All flesh is grass" (1 Peter 1:24)

I don't think that is a definition anymore than what's been said about "eonian life." 

All literature, including scripture, can say something is something else in a figurative sense without it being a definition. Like I said before, I think "eonian" is simply the adjective describing the kind of "life," but we have different interpretations about what that means.

I'm sorry if I haven't been expressing myself well for the last couple of days. I've been sick.

if Christ says, "I am the resurrection and the life" do you think that's a metaphor such as "all flesh is grass?"

all flesh is grass....wheat,rye barley are grasses...but He says..gather my wheat into the barn..to His angels......and the life[new]

is in the head of the grain of the grass.

People from our generation might interpret that ...all flesh is as marijuana.

That was "grass" too!   :banana:   :laughing7:

Ok...back to the serious.

Maybe some of that legal medical "grass" would help me right now, but my head's already so crazy today from this bug that it might just put me over the edge. I know some folks here think they will never die because that's what the King James tells them, and they also think that's so partly because Jesus said he was the resurrection. I think that's another case of figurative language because the resurrection for believers is said by Paul in scripture to come in the future when all believers, dead and alive, will be snatched away to meet Christ in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). I think the same thing applies to Christ being eonian life. I'm also thinking right now about Christ losing some of his disciples when they interpreted him literally about eating his flesh (John 6:51-66). I think Christ often spoke figuratively but was and is interpreted literally. So despite Christ being the resurrection and eonian life, I think there are literal interpretations of those things that are separate concepts. That's why I used the word "concept" a ways back in this thread, not intending to offend or to say something isn't scriptural, but just because a figurative interpretation is a different kind of idea than a literal one. Maybe I shouldn't even be on the forum right now in my even crazier than usual mental state due to this virus, but I'm trying my best to communicate intelligently. It seems there is a continuous debate of literal vs. figurative with scripture, and this is just the latest one to pop up on the forum.

I think maybe a good way to tell if something is figurative or not is if it could be interpreted more literally. In other words, "eonian" is describing whatever it's hooked up with as relating to an "eon" or "eons," and I think most folks have a basic understanding of what "life" is. So I think a more literal interpretation would be "life" of the "eon" or "eons," which is what I think "eonian life" refers to, specifically the next eon and the one after, but I understand the figurative interpretation also. So it seems to me like we're debating six or a half dozen. If anybody has a different interpretation than me about anything, that doesn't bother me because I think everybody will have a different perspective than me about everything. Sometimes we see things more or less the same, and other times we may be at the opposite ends of the spectrum. But I don't think we need to get too crazy about that. 

For me, it's not that I think I will never physically die.  Unless the Lord returns before that happens, I probably will, unless for some reason, the Lord takes me up in a whirlwind or something ( all things are possible ).  Or something like an Enoch experience....one can always hope!    :)   .....which, interestingly, was before the flood etc

What I'm identifying with most of all in scripture is the reality that we have been crucified with Christ nevertheless live.  That death He died had us in it....literally and figuratively. 

Back around '78 or so, I had the great privilege of meeting a brother named Norman Grubb, and hearing what he had to share about this very thing ....being crucified with Christ.
We have no independent self...we are all bearing fruit from either one tree or the other.

When one is in Christ, the very life of God abides in that person, by His Spirit.  That life is indestructable.  Even should our outer man perish ....that life inside, in Christ, cannot.   

 Psalms 12  may the Lord cut off all flATTERING LIPS..AND EVERY BOASTFUL TONGUE THAT SAYS,'WE WILL TRIUMPH WITH OUR TONGUE'

  we own our lips-who is our master?

  because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy,I will now arise,says the Lord. I will protect them from

  those who malign them. And the words of the Lord are flawless

   Proverbs 18;21  the tongue has the power of life and death..and those who love it will eat it's fruit.

I believe GOD is Spirit, and I was made through the Christ-Spirit of the Godhead - therefore I am a spirit.

For me, Christ is raised in me both now and when the tabernacle of flesh is dropped, and I care not if men's thoughts pin to me the label of the fallen but expect it as a blessing.

My life feels unending now that the spirit, given to me through Christ, is aroused by the Holy Spirit.

I was awakened to the Loving Christ - the Tender Shepherd of mankind - by the Unending Spirit, before hearing the Holy Book or its readers - that is how I know my life is unending as it was awakened by Unending Spirit.

This life is only special because I feel it is unending - that is why I know it is Christ - if it did not feel unending, I would not know it was special.

I have escaped men's doctrines - I have the Spirit to instruct, and humility falls on one as Christ is revealed and further revealed, for He is greater and mightier than man can grasp - and more humble too.

Christ within, Christ without - what more should I desire of Him except the humility, strength and courage to learn how to serve His Holy Desire?

I could not detract one iota of blessing from the gift of life given so generously by the Creator of Life and the Father of Spirits.

For me, the Christ is always enlivened within me by His words and the Truth which is of Him - but men's' words cannot take anything away from this experience and understanding.

When I look at the scripture I see parts that fit together. For example:

"And this is life eonian, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

So I ask myself, does simply being alive and conscious ("literally alive") mean that I know God? I don't think so, and the Bible says this:

1 John 4:6-7
You dear children are from God and and have overcome them because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and the world listens to them. We are from God and whoever knows God listens to us but whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

The very fact that someone can be literally alive and still not know God is a big clue to me that eonian life is not being made literally alive (conscious and self aware), but is an indwelling of Christ. Some know God and some don't, but everybody is literally alive. So there must be another kind of life indwelling by which we may understand the division John is talking about.

If all someone needs is to be conscious and animated to know God, then we don't need faith to know him, and thus EVERYONE would know God already who is physically alive. Eonian life is God according to the scripture, and according to John those who are murders do not have eonian life within them. What else is within Christ's followers but the Holy Spirit. God is that life.

It is eonian because it applies to the eons. Are we living in an eon today? Of course. So that takes care of that. Is God eonian life? The Bible says so and that is how we know him, by being born of him.

That is why in the end it says that death will be destroyed, when God is all in all. All IN (within) all. God within everyone. Then, everyone will know God because everyone will have his life indwelling, and that is how they will know they have passed from death to life because they love each other. Thus, all death is destroyed through both immortality and the indwelling of the Spirit.

 :iagree:  lastpost & Seth

And I luv you Tom even tho we see this a lil differently!  :)
  I think some of us are just basically saying because Christ/His Spirit indwells us even now...that we have that life in Him now, too.  Not just later on. 

Maybe this understanding can be included in the "especially of believers."  Like how He is saving us even in this age/lifetime by His very Life.

I was just going back through the thread. I agree that "eonian life" is different from "immortality," but I'm thinking about how considering the literal "definition" of "eonian life" to be "knowledge of God through spirit" or "to know God and to be in God" could be a problem when unbelievers are vivified at the consummation of the eons, and God will be all in all. That would obviously give them "knowledge of God through spirit" "to know God and to be in God" because God is spirit, God will be all in all, and all is out of God, through God, and into God, but they wouldn't have "eonian life." If you think unbelievers will eventually have "eonian life," I can't think of any scripture that says that, but scripture does say that Christ has been vivified, and all of mankind will be vivified at two different times which happens to unbelievers at the end of the eons. Only believers are promised "eonian life" which I think is the life we will experience while unbelievers are dead. Our life doesn't end when the eons end because we will have been immortalized. Even unbelievers will be immortalized then, but the eons will have been ended. So all mankind will be living without death, but there will be no more "eonian life" because there will be no more eons. It seems there will be some unfaithful in the next eon because I believe that's when executed criminals will be executed and have their corpses burned in Gehenna, but I think the great white throne judgment happens at the end of that eon which will result in all the unfaithful being cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. So all the unbelievers will be dead during the eon of the eons, the final eon, when there is said to be a new creation, while believers experience eonian life for however long that eons lasts. So I don't see how there's a way to say unbelievers will somehow get "eonian life" which is what the bottom line is if you say the "definition" of "eonian life" is "knowledge of God through spirit" or "to know God and to be in God." I believe that those who die as unbelievers will eventually be just as blessed as we will be after the eons, but they will be dead during our "eonian life." So they will not experience "eonian life." I hope all this doesn't just confuse the issue. I'm typing this while squinting through a splitting headache. The Adversary seems to be working overtime on me for the last few days with this sickness. I think there's a lot of confusion about "eonian life," and much of it is because of the mistranslation as "eternal life." I don't think the phrase means an infinite time span or even endless life after a certain point because scripture says the eons will end, but our life won't. I believe it simply means life sometime during the eons, but I think it specifically applies to the life we believers will have while unbelievers will be dead. I do not believe figurative interpretations of "eonian life" are "definitions" of it that can be used to invalidate the obvious "definition" of the phrase which is evident by the "definition" of the words in the phrase itself. The word "eonian" is the adjective of an "eon," a period of time. So whatever comes next is relevant to something about a period of time. What comes next is "life." So I think it's logical to say that "eonian life" must be "life" during the "eon." As I continue to read through the posts in the thread, I keep seeing it said that figurative interpretations are "definitions." I think that is only true in a figurative sense even though the impression I'm getting is that the figurative interpretations are considered to be literal "definitions," and, as I've mentioned, that causes a problem down the road when unbelievers will finally "know God." I don't agree that one doesn't need to "interpret" scripture because a figurative interpretation is considered to be a literal "definition." I didn't say "immortality" and "eonian life" are the same, but I think believers will have "immortality" during "eonian life" and beyond while unbelievers will not have "eonian life," but will have "immortality" at the end of the eons. I hope this helps to clarify my perspective.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I just want to clarify myself that I didn't say that interpretation is never necessary. And I agree that eonian life and immortality are not the same. In order to know whether or not unbelievers will receive eonian life we need to know what is that life. The Bible says that eonian life is God and is indwelling and that God will be all in all, and not a single scripture I known of that says time will cease to exist. The Bible doesn't literally say "all shall be saved" verbatim, but you still believe it based on what you see in scripture. If God is eonian life an I have him within, then I have eonian life in this eon, and don't have to wait for the future to receive it.

I think anybody alive during the eons could be said to have "eonian life" in a sense, but I don't think that's what Christ was talking about when he used the phrase.

I think scripture does literally say, "all shall be saved" with this verse.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

I don't know how time will be perceived after the eons, but scripture says there will be a consummation of the eons. That is when life during the eons will end, but life will continue after that because there will be no more death.

Tom, as you said, eonian life is given for us to know God. So NOT everyone can say they have eonian life just because they are conscious. If so, unbelievers would have eonian life without needing faith. One can only have eonian life if they believe.

I can know that because 1) we can receive eonian life today 2) we can have it within us and how someone behaves is how we can know they have it within them or not 3) some people have it and others do not 4) everyone is already literally alive

The word verbatim means exact phraseology. There is no scripture that literally says "everyone shall be saved" but you can derive that from scriptures which do not say it verbatim such as the one you quoted which does not say it verbatim.

Life during the eons will only end if God ends since God is eonian life. As the scriptures say that death will be destroyed when God us all in all, not just because they are conscience. The consummation of eons just means that certain eons will come to a conclusion. Yes eons end. That doesn't mean others do not start. As long as there are eons and God is life, man will have eonian life including now.

Jesus used "aionian zoe" (age-during life) as opposed to "aionian kolassis"(age-during correction) and "aionian pyr"(age-during fire).

I think universalists have to be careful about how they handle this "seeming" paradox, because, just to me now, too many UR answers seem shallow to me and do not always hold up to scrutiny- appearing to be patchwork answers to ETrs and EDrs.

That's why I always go to olam as the source word, and demonstrate how in the OT it was used frequently and applied as an indefinte descriptive word defined in part by the subject it was connected to, such as distant past, distant future, the eternal life of God, the lenght of a slaves life, the duration of mountains, etc.

There is no "wrangling of words" necessary once this is proven. Many UR adherents (altho I took notice Tom in your post that you do see aionian in the light of olam) try to teach that aion always means a time with a definite end and beginning. In my opinion this is incorrect, both in terms of biblical context and translation from Heb/Aramaic/syriac to Greek. Because it is an incorrect argument, it reflects badly on UR theology and dissuades some from taking UR seriously(imo).

I am not saying I am "right", but I certainly have abundant evidence for my opinion in scriptural usage of olam. I also believe Jesus, in Matthew 25, is not saying there will be punishment "for an age"- but rather "for an appropriate indefinte period". Till every knee bows, till they have "paid the last penny", many stripes for some, few for others.

I sometimes deal with people who have studied these things intensely(from their point of view lol) and I dont like to use Aristotilian evidence because to me it is meanlingless since he was opposed to Hebrew/Christian thought. So the reason I mention it frequently is not to quibble :o). it is because I want to strengthen the arguments used by UR believers in debating the subject.

I think "for an age" and "for an indefinite period of time" are close enough in meaning to me to be pretty much the same thing. It's not forever.

I do admire your desire to strengthen the UR debate on the issue. I can only explain my own experience. As far as how we communicate UR to others, I have had many people over the years contact me and tell me that reading my paper on it has completely clarified the issue for them and had finally given them what they need to finally believe UR, whereas before it was muddled and confusing for them. That's been a big blessing. So, not only do I believe what I am saying, I also think it has been effective in communicating UR to many people. Whenever someone tries to test me on it and see if I can answer their questions, and I explain myself, they don't argue against it. I have had that happen alot of times too. The bottom line though is that you must go with what you believe, either way. If I believed differently then I do, then I wouldn't say it, and it wouldn't matter if it was less effective to me. I would just need to go with what I honestly believe as we all do and I respect you all on that issue.

I've said before that I believe "eonian life," as we both understand it, is only promised to believers. What I said in my previous post was "in a sense." That's the same way I view our different perspectives on "eonian life." I can see them both in a certain sense, and, as usual, our discussion has something to do with literal vs. figurative. I just don't buy the idea that a figurative interpretation is the "definition" while the literal perspective isn't valid. I don't think unbelievers will ever "believe" because that's about faith, but I think they will eventually know God when God is all in all.

Verbatim schmerbatim...God's going to save all mankind. I think there's a bunch of stuff we get from scripture that isn't necessarily in there word for word. "Universal reconcilation" is one example.

I think life during the eons will end because scripture says there is a consummation, but life won't end because we'll have immortality. Obviously God won't end either. I don't think there are anymore eons coming after the new heaven and new earth which you seem to consider to be a possibility. I don't see the point because the grand drama of the universe will be complete, and God will have demonstrated his overwhelming power of love to be the most powerful force in the universe. Even those chosen to be his enemies in the past will then be filled with the love of God, and there will be no more evil. There's always some kind of traumatic event that ushers in a new eon. What would be the need? Everything's going to be cool after the consummation. You're just going to get to hang out on your cloud strumming your harp enjoying life without anymore headaches. Man, I'm ready to get rid of my headache today. 

I'm aware of the idea that "olam" is indefinite as if perceiving the horizon, and I think the same thing applies to "aion." But I think the thing is that they're both finite, not infinite as "eternal" indicates. I think I remember hearing that your buddy Aristotle is the guy who came up with the idea of endless ages.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 01, 2015, 11:29:43 PM
I also believe Jesus, in Matthew 25, is not saying there will be punishment "for an age"- but rather "for an appropriate indefinte period". Till every knee bows, till they have "paid the last penny", many stripes for some, few for others.

Yes, and I also take the view that this is happening outside of earthly "time" as we know "time" - but it is happening, and has always happened, because...

I see Christ as having died and risen before the foundation of the world, and His Manifestation as Jesus was just that - a real living Manifestation showing what He is like and what He has been doing ever since His little ones came away from Perfection in what is commonly termed as "The Fall".

So, I believe these processes are happening at the death of the fleshly body, to each one individually.

For instance, when Jesus says of God: "I AM the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is NOT the God of the DEAD but of the LIVING" - He means it exactly like He says it - in the present tense!

This is one of the most difficult things I encounter with sincere people - the confinement of the age-lasting chastisement and age-lasting life to 2 periods of time, whereas I see them as two concise descriptions of processes for each soul individually.

The one who is in Christ goes to one of the many tarrying or abiding places in His Father's House, and lives out aionion life (and finds much joy in serving and going from 'glory to glory'). [There is much more to this but suffice it to say that a spirit who truly loves GOD or Christ, wants to give Him something and seeks hither and thither for Him!].

While the wicked one (whether needing 'many stripes or some') goes to an age-lasting pruning according to the need for purification of the soul. Once the purification (cleansing) is achieved, the soul can now pass into a tarrying or abiding place in aionion life (and take up loving service towards God's Grand Consummation)[Would not any follower of Christ cry out and plead to the Good Lord for such an opportunity?]

So, from here we see an intelligent, just process of how GOD is indeed becoming all-in-all - in my opinion.

Quote from: TomVerbatim schmerbatim...God's going to save all mankind. I think there's a bunch of stuff we get from scripture that isn't necessarily in there word for word. "Universal reconcilation" is one example.

I agree. My only point was that just because the Bible doesn't verbatim say that unbelievers will receive eonian life, doesn't mean it won't happen. You can arrive at conclusions by analyzing the different parts and putting them together without needing verbatim statements to exist.

Quote from: TomI think life during the eons will end because scripture says there is a consummation, but life won't end because we'll have immortality.

You just said that life will end, but it won't end. Either life will end, or it will not.

Maybe it will cease being "eonian" (according to your view) without eons but that doesn't mean life itself will end. If so, according to a literal view of life ending, then they will all have to be killed, then resurrected after those two eons for life to continue on.

Either way, I agree that the "eonian" aspect of "eonian life" would become meaningless if eons ended, and it would simply be life. The question is WHAT is that life? According to the Bible it is GOD HIMSELF, not simply being self aware and conscious during an eon. GOD is the life. CHRIST is the life. He says that HE HIMSELF is the life, and that he also HAS immortality. And not everyone has that life (Christ) because not everyone believes. And if someone believes, they may have that life (Christ) in THIS eon, not simply in two future eons of being literally conscious.

I am not saying that two future eons are never going to happen. I'm just saying that the Bible doesn't say that being conscious and self aware is what that life is. It's God himself. Many people who are self aware and conscious still don't have God and therefore have no eonian life. Those who are self aware and conscious who DO believe have that life now because they have Christ (the Life) within them.

Quote from: TomI don't see the point because the grand drama of the universe will be complete, and God will have demonstrated his overwhelming power of love to be the most powerful force in the universe.

The drama of the universe might not be complete after that. What if God kept creating? He's a creator by nature isn't he? Time is simply the measure of things that happen in sequence. There's no reason for me to believe (especially not scripturally) that sequential evens and their measurements must definitely come to an end.

 
  Amen that is why we need the HOLY SPIRIT teacher     John   John 14
  We have an advantage over the ones waiting for it to come  during these scriptures   written   , But sure did  come as promised  ,     to those  who waited on the Lord   for being under the law to the  time of grace   this  duration of time  and so many have come and gone without knowing the salvation of all     



Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
...25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Luke 24:49
I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

John 1:33
And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

John 2:22
After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

John 12:16
At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him.

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--



John 15:26
"When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me.

John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Acts 1:4
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Acts 2:33
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

1 Corinthians 2:10
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

1 John 2:20
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.


I am one who is big on the Holy Spirit  of truth and  we only know and share   and write what we are given


I am always willing to learn  and understand  , but have a hard time at times   being able to put in words what is in my heart

I do trust Him to help all mankind

  We are in a prison of sorts our  own  minds can become a tormenting   thing of confusion  and not knowing  ,  the only peace I have ever know is from my personal relationship with Jesus  , I say this  sincerely and truly     , I have known sin sickness and  Babylons prison house   and the peace that only trusting in God can give and desire that for every one who has suffered  in this manner


Matt 25 ...39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'


40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'              :HeartThrob:

Quote from: rosered on May 02, 2015, 12:49:45 AM

   I am one who is big on the Holy Spirit  of truth and  we only know and share   and write what we are given


I am always willing to learn  and understand  , but have a hard time at times   being able to put in words what is in my heart

I do trust Him to help all mankind

  We are in a prison of sorts our  own  minds can become a tormenting   thing of confusion  and not knowing  ,  the only peace I have ever know is from my personal relationship with Jesus  , I say this  sincerely and truly     , I have known sin sickness and  Babylons prison house   and the peace that only trusting in God can give and desire that for every one who has suffered  in this manner               :HeartThrob:

I feel the same way Rose. Good words.

CHB

I didn't say "life will end." I keep saying, though life will no longer be during the eons, eonian life as I perceive it will end because there will be no eons, but life will continue, even though the eons ended, because we'll have immortality. The eons are not necessary for life to continue. God will be all in all. So of course all will not only know God but be filled with God's love. I don't know what God has planned after the eons because scripture doesn't tell us that, and I don't even think we need to worry about that because I think it will be all good. The reason to believe there is an end, or consummation, is because scripture says so, but I think this long drama of eonian time could someday seem insignificant time wise due to immortality even though what we all learned from it will probably leave an impression. I think that's the purpose of the whole thing is to demonstrate to all on the earth and in the heavens the power of God by overcoming death and all the evil in the universe with love, and that's definitely a better ultimate plan than what orthodox theology gives us. 

Quote from: Tom on May 02, 2015, 01:52:15 AM
I didn't say "life will end." I keep saying, though life will no longer be during the eons, eonian life as I perceive it will end because there will be no eons, but life will continue, even though the eons ended, because we'll have immortality. The eons are not necessary for life to continue. God will be all in all. So of course all will not only know God but be filled with God's love. I don't know what God has planned after the eons because scripture doesn't tell us that, and I don't even think we need to worry about that because I think it will be all good. The reason to believe there is an end, or consummation, is because scripture says so, but I think this long drama of eonian time could someday seem insignificant time wise due to immortality even though what we all learned from it will probably leave an impression. I think that's the purpose of the whole thing is to demonstrate to all on the earth and in the heavens the power of God by overcoming death and all the evil in the universe with love, and that's definitely a better ultimate plan than what orthodox theology gives us.

So eonian life will cease being eonian but will continue being life. Is that what you are basically saying?

Either way or doesn't matter to me so much. I believe that if God is eonian life, he will continue to be life even eons end. The logic behind what the Bible says eonian life is will continue to be that which is God himself indwelling as it is happening today, regardless if the word "eonian" is affixed to it or not.

I think the bottom line is life will never end again after we're immortalized, but scripture says the eons have a consummation. I don't have a problem with that, but I think having a literal perspective about God or Christ being eonian life presents a problem when the eons end. I don't have that perspective. So I'm not thinking about that. I just think the eons will end; but of course God will not; and we won't either because we'll be immortal. 

I don't see the problem. Supposing for argument sake that the re will be no further ages.

FOR NOW, God is eonian life. He is life in this eon making him eonian life as long as there are eons. After the eons ended he would no longer be known as eonian life, but Life. There's no logical conflict in that. He's already called the eonian God today. If there were no more eons, he would be simply God.

...just like he was before the eons, bro. He's only "eonian" because of and during the eons just like everything else pertaining to the eons because "eonian" only describes what's about the eons. So maybe we just found the first thing we ever didn't agree to disagree about. Amen.

Yes we definitely agree about a few things, for sure.

God bless ya, bro. It kind of reminds me of a joke I heard once about a couple of blind guys arguing about how to describe an elephant when one was in front of the elephant and one was behind. I don't remember it very clearly because I'm half demented and have had a virus for the last couple of days. But I think the point is that it seems like we're always looking a the same thing from different ends I guess because of the Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism thing even though I used to hate watching those folks argue about that on other Christian websites, and I don't consider myself belonging to any school of theology really. I just try to discern truth from scripture which I know you do to. We're just bound to look at things differently because we have different life experiences and different understandings of scripture. I know you tend to lean a little more toward the figurative side, and you probably think I take things a little too literally. But it all works out in the long run because I believe God reveals the truth to those who seek it.

 :friendstu:

Quote from: Seth on May 01, 2015, 11:32:27 PM
I think "for an age" and "for an indefinite period of time" are close enough in meaning to me to be pretty much the same thing. It's not forever.

Still, in such a scenario, the idea of someone suffering "for an age" is still pretty broad. My "indefinte time" ranges from a moment(few stripes) to "who know how long", as olam indicates.  "Aionian" is an adjective in Matthew 25- not a noun.

But as I said, I don't want to quibble :o)

I rejoice in the work evryone here is doing to spread the "Victorious Gospel", and for me this is an open discussion- and I have no need or desire to take it further than that as we edify one another- and we all repeat the things we believe as the topics bring them round again :o)

I have changed my views several times based on things I have harvested from the sowing of members on this site.

As we read one anothers words we weigh what we think we kno, always looking for the "test" of "fire in the Day"- and we walk in the truth as best we can. As iron sharpens iron, our fellowship in what we share is priceless to me, and I hope to all who read our words, as they check them out.  :dsunny:

 :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: eaglesway on May 02, 2015, 07:48:36 AM

Quote from: Seth on May 01, 2015, 11:32:27 PM
I think "for an age" and "for an indefinite period of time" are close enough in meaning to me to be pretty much the same thing. It's not forever.

Still, in such a scenario, the idea of someone suffering "for an age" is still pretty broad. My "indefinte time" ranges from a moment(few stripes) to "who know how long", as olam indicates.  "Aionian" is an adjective in Matthew 25- not a noun.

But as I said, I don't want to quibble :o)

I rejoice in the work evryone here is doing to spread the "Victorious Gospel", and for me this is an open discussion- and I have no need or desire to take it further than that as we edify one another- and we all repeat the things we believe as the topics bring them round again :o)

I have changed my views several times based on things I have harvested from the sowing of members on this site.

As we read one anothers words we weigh what we think we kno, always looking for the "test" of "fire in the Day"- and we walk in the truth as best we can. As iron sharpens iron, our fellowship in what we share is priceless to me, and I hope to all who read our words, as they check them out.  :dsunny:

Me too, amen. :iagree:  Can't wait for the day when all truth is known. I think we all will be a little surprised.  :eek:

CHB

Quote from: CHB on May 02, 2015, 05:12:41 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on May 02, 2015, 07:48:36 AM

Quote from: Seth on May 01, 2015, 11:32:27 PM
I think "for an age" and "for an indefinite period of time" are close enough in meaning to me to be pretty much the same thing. It's not forever.

Still, in such a scenario, the idea of someone suffering "for an age" is still pretty broad. My "indefinte time" ranges from a moment(few stripes) to "who know how long", as olam indicates.  "Aionian" is an adjective in Matthew 25- not a noun.

But as I said, I don't want to quibble :o)

I rejoice in the work evryone here is doing to spread the "Victorious Gospel", and for me this is an open discussion- and I have no need or desire to take it further than that as we edify one another- and we all repeat the things we believe as the topics bring them round again :o)

I have changed my views several times based on things I have harvested from the sowing of members on this site.

As we read one anothers words we weigh what we think we kno, always looking for the "test" of "fire in the Day"- and we walk in the truth as best we can. As iron sharpens iron, our fellowship in what we share is priceless to me, and I hope to all who read our words, as they check them out.  :dsunny:

Me too, amen. :iagree:  Can't wait for the day when all truth is known. I think we all will be a little surprised.  :eek:

CHB

Amen      !    Its all for the Lord God    from the Lord God , and We  thank him for    all help as    God  gives the   increase   :HeartThrob:

I know the Lord is dealing with me/us ,,,,  in what you just shared CHB   ,,,  I was remembering   what   my husbands grandfather shared  with my dad and  his son 

   and my husband /grandson    a  long time ago   when they were discussing   ''these things of God ''  and His plane
  and   he said ,     I do not think its going to be as anyone    expects and   there is going to be a lot of surprise     for everyone ''.

  When you just shared that it was like, '' a  witness ''   twice told   to me  ...   
  For me it is the Holy Spirit    affirming     and bringing back to remembrance        what was    spoken     15 years ago       

and it is significant  in meaning    ,  to spread the   Victorious Gospel  even in troublesome times  by   His Spirit

 

Back to the original topic, which was the meaning of olam.

As olam relates to aion versus aionian.

Aion is a noun

aionian is an adjective.

Olam is olam(joke) :o)

No, really, it is a wierd word, honestly. It can be either adjective or noun, it is frequently adjective, "the olam God", "olam hills", etc.

But it can be a noun,"he shall be your slave olam". In 438 uses in the OT it seems to be pretty evenly divided.

This is the difference between aion and aionian, but they are two words, where as olam is one, so in really doing the definition accurately that distinction has to be made. aion and aionian are both from olam.

As I see it, in "aionian zoe", Jesus is speaking of a quality of experience, not a duration of life. "aionian" is an adjective there. Its definition may include duration, but it is certainly not predominantly about duration. It is primarily about living in the power of the resurrection, living in the presence of God, living in perfect union through the Spirit. Its enduring quality is provided as a side effect to ITS VERY NATURE.

aionian kolassis and aionian pyr(imo) are the same thing. A type of experience in "the other world", which brings up another interesting thing about olam, which is also used to reference the hidden world on the other side of the veil of mortal life.

IMO, This is the reason why aions was translated "worlds" in Hebrews 1, and it is a further clue that the translators of the septuagint went from olam to aion/aionian - using aion to communicate the noun sense of olam and aionian to communicate the adjective sense.

To this very day "olam ha-ba" means, "the world to come" in Jewish belief. "olam ha-zeh" means "this world". For me this makes it clear that since olam is defined in connection with its subject, so is aionian, and so, Matthew 25:46 may mean no more than,

"the life of the world to come"(aionian zoe) and "the correction of the world to come"(aionian kolassis) which is "the fire of the world to come"(aionian pyr).

In which case Jesus would not really be communicating about duration at all in using aionian in those verses. :o)

...this is a lot closer to my thoughts about it.  look at the new earth/new heaven..refined...no more curse/death,surely an understanding

  refined by His corrective fire[Mind of Christ]..the old earth that passed away/cursed[under law covenant] that which is old is

passing away[the old earth will wear out like a garment/become obsolete]

Well, that's one way to look at it, but maybe that "world to come" is the same world in a future time in a different form or appearance that is so radically changed that it's perceived to be another "olam" or "aion" whether you want to think of it as time or space or both. I think the use of the word "world" instead of "eon" is more figurative than literal because I think it will be the same world in a different time. We are said to be new creations which I think is in a figurative sense now but will be in a literal sense when we're actually changed (1 Corinthians 15:52). A "new creation" seems to say something completely different, but something about us will probably still be the same or we wouldn't still be who we were. I'm thinking about when Christ was transformed on the mountain (Matthew 17:1-9). He was probably seen more like he actually is than how they usually perceived him in the flesh, which may be similar to how we'll appear when we're changed, but I think something about us will be unique and recognizable. Something strange I experienced when I was in the light was a sense of just knowing without having to be told. Information was intuitive. No spoken language was necessary. I think we may all experience that in the future, and all the different languages created at Babel will be unnecessary because God will be all in all. So there will be instant communication between us, but something about us will be recognizable even though we will be radically changed.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheJudgmentOfTheNations.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

 
Wow Great study John
  I can see this plainly in Blessed is he whom is in the first resurrection for the second death has no power   

  no harm  Rev 9    , they had   the hair   of women      not  to  teach     

  no man can shake you in the sense   of this the fear is cast out by perfect /'' Love Christ in you'' and sharing this glory of God while still being a mortal     , that faith  giving the grace     and  power of the Holy Spirit       the  rasiing the dead   , gifts of healing and restoring  , the blind and  lame     etc ... Be it ,  on earth as it is in heaven  :HeartThrob:

  With Christ ruling and reigning       over the Body  which is CHRIST     , discerning the spirits 
faith hope and love        these remain 

  shake   in heaven once  more   Hebrews 12 ...25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." 27This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain....

   these three remain 1Corinth   3   ...12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, remain  these three; but the greatest of these is love.
  who can separate us from the love of God   Romans 8
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ?

Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."...

  the shaken out of heaven our hearts / minds    is satan       Jesus said I saw satan fall   like lightning   
Luke 10

  the power from on HIGH !!  HOLY SPIRIT   THE FATHER & SON     17The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19"Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you....   

rev   9   the locust   eaters and destroyers of the earth , kings of the earth        ,   like scorpions  '' the sting'' was in their tails/lies     to torment  for 5 months 


  will say this   Revelation is the  key to  unlock   the WORD OF GOD BY  JESUS CHRIST OPENING THE SEALS OF THE BOOK    . THE LAMB OF GOD    having this BLOOD  /LIFE   over   the doorpost [ in our mouth]     


That the Light inside    by faith , this gift of God [Christ in you the hope of glory and the LOVE    that overcomes the world   


   Is the same  7 trumpets to   tear down by faith'' in Christ anointing''     the walls of Jericho /  city of the  moon       back in the time of Joshua       

Faith believing in obedience  to God   is  , was and will be    what Got/gets   things  done  by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT & WORD    within your walls of salvation   
anointing   is to smear    with   oil  and the fire of Gods consuming       HOLY SPIRIT     anything that is not of God      will not remain

   What remains is the faith ,  hope and love     increase of Gods    HOLY  WORD BY HIS SPIRIT OF TRUTH


judgment begins in the house of God  you are that house /temple




1 Corthin 3


Brothers and sisters, in the past I could not talk to you as I talk to ·spiritual people [or people who have the Spirit]. I had to talk to you as I would to ·people without the Spirit [unspiritual/carnal/fleshly people]—·babies [infants] in Christ.



2 ·The teaching I gave you was like milk [L I gave you milk to drink], not solid food, because you were not yet able to take solid food [C the comparison is between basic and advanced teaching]. And even now you are not ready.


3 You are still ·not spiritual [carnal; fleshly; living by your sinful nature], because there is ·jealousy [envy] and ·quarreling [conflict; rivalry] among you, and this shows that you are ·not spiritual [carnal; fleshly; living by your sinful nature]. You are ·acting [living; L walking] ·like people of the world [or like ordinary/unsaved people; or on a merely human level; L according to man].


4 One of you says, "I belong to Paul," and another says, "I belong to Apollos." When you say things like this, ·you are [L are you not...?] ·acting like people of the world [or living on a merely human level; L people; human beings].

5 ·Is Apollos important? No! [L What, then, is Apollos?] ·Is Paul important? No! [L And what is Paul?] We are only servants of God who helped you believe.

Each one of us did the work the Lord gave us to do.


6 I planted the seed, and Apollos watered it.


But God is the One who made it grow. 7 So the one who plants is not ·important [L anything], and the one who waters is not ·important [L anything], but only God, who makes things grow.


8 The one who plants and the one who waters ·have the same purpose [or are equal; L are one], and each will ·be rewarded [receive wages] for his own work.


9 We are ·God's workers, working together [coworkers belonging to God; coworkers in God's service]; you are God's ·farm [field], God's building.

10 ·Using [or Because of] the ·gift [grace] God gave me,

I laid the foundation of that building like an ·expert [skilled; wise] builder. Others are building on that foundation, but ·all people [L each one] should be careful how they build on it. 11 The foundation that has already been laid is Jesus Christ, and no one can lay down any other foundation.


12 But if ·people [anyone; someone] build on that foundation, using gold, silver, ·jewels [precious stones], wood, ·grass [or hay], or straw,


13 their work will be ·clearly seen [or shown for what it is], because the ·day of judgment [L day] will make it ·visible [clear; obvious]. That day will ·appear [or reveal it; expose it] with fire, and the fire will test everyone's work to show what sort of work it was.


14 If the ·building that has been put on the foundation [L work] still stands, the builder will get ·a reward [or wages].


15 But if the ·building [L work] is burned up, the builder will ·suffer loss [or be fined; or be punished]. The builder will be saved, but it will be as one who escaped ·from a fire [L through fire].

16 Don't ·you [you all; C the verb is plural] know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you [C just as God's presence filled the tabernacle; Ex. 40:34–38]? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person, because God's temple is holy ·and you are that temple [or and you are holy; L which is what you are].

18 Do not ·fool [deceive] yourselves. If you think you are wise in this ·world [age], you should become a fool so that you can become truly wise, 19 because the wisdom of this world is ·foolishness [folly] with God. [L For] It is written in the Scriptures, "He catches those who are wise in their own ·clever traps [craftiness; cunning; Job 5:13]." 20 ·It is also written in the Scriptures [L And again],


"The Lord knows ·what wise people think [L the thoughts/reasoning/machinations of the wise]. He knows their thoughts are ·worthless [pointless; useless; futile; Ps. 94:11]." 21 So you should not ·brag [boast] about ·human leaders [L people]. All things belong to you: 22 Paul, Apollos, and ·Peter [L Cephas; C Peter's name in Aramaic; see 1:12]; the world, life, death, the present, and the future—all these belong to you. 23 And you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.

I noticed  recently    the urgency   in the way the New testament was written as to being a now    type of writing       with the   flair    of  zeal  , as to say , these things  will shortly come to pass     or   He comes quickly    etc...

  That was a long time ago ,  when we consider   time as an element , being elemental  and primary or basic    ,   that is burned up   , it has been a stumbling block    for many  including myself     for a long long time .


  I only see     3     ages /stages       spoken about      ,  the  first being     without law     and the  other   two ages  in the sense of those  under law and those under grace

  making  3     ages ,   3 days     

  I believe in the simplicity   in Christ being that    1,   when there was no law there was no sin ....
 
and when the law came   2 ,  sin   was exposed and in everyones  weakness     death ruled

  and then the grace of God though Jesus Christ     , where sin was made an open show nailing those   ordinances to His  cross  3 ,   God made this a way of escape    from death   by the LIFE IN CHRIST    till GOD BE ALL IN ALL   


This 3rd Day    is the urgency that   the new testament speaks    of     overcoming the world /death sentance           

1john 4 ...3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God;

this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.


4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; [ plural antichrist spirits ]


because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.

Why ? ,because we hear Him , by faith    ,  faith comes by hearing      what the Spirit is saying ,  Jesus rejoiced when Peter said you are the Christ the Son of the Living God  , flesh and blood did not reveal    this to you but my FATHER  [GIFT OF GRACE  INCREASE ]  BY HOLY SPIRIT   WITNESS

THE FATHER AND JESUS   were together   before the world was     and was with Him when  He walked the earth as a man   as flesh and blood and      when the renewing of the HOLY SPIRIT COME       the new ones would be birthed and   come in the same manner    by ONE OF A KIND

This hope of glory would be the Christ in you the very same seed      /Word of God  = CHRIST  anointing  given the increase   of God     from faith , hope and LOVE  , THE LOVE BEING THE  FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY         


COL 2
Alive in Christ
...8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.



9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;...


10 and you have ·a full and true life in Christ [L been filled in him], who is ·ruler [L head] over every ruler and ·power [authority].

11 In Christ you were also circumcised, but not with a circumcision done by hands [Rom. 2:28; Phil. 3:3]. It was ·a circumcision done by Christ [L the circumcision of Christ], which ·freed you from [put off; cut away] ·the power of your sinful self [your sinful nature; L the body of flesh; C just as OT circumcision cut off the physical flesh, so Christ's circumcision "cuts off" the "flesh"—the power of our sinful self].


12 When you were baptized, you were buried with Christ, and you were raised up with him through your faith in the ·power [working; active agency] of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 When you were ·spiritually dead [L dead] ·because of [or in] your sins and ·because you were not free from the power [L in the uncircumcision] of your ·sinful self [sinful nature; flesh], God made you alive with Christ, and he forgave all our ·sins [transgressions].


14 He ·canceled [wiped out; erased] the ·record [certificate] of debt, ·which listed all the rules we failed to follow [L with its decrees that were against us; C the record of sins revealed through the OT law; Eph. 2:15]. He ·took it away [set it aside; destroyed it] and nailed it to the cross. 15 ·God [or Christ; L He] ·stripped the spiritual rulers and powers of their authority [L disarmed/despoiled the rulers and authorities]. With the cross, he won the victory and ·showed the world that they were powerless [publicly shamed them; made a public spectacle of them; C like a triumphant general displaying his captives in a victory parade].


Our cross it seems is to not let the world   have any power   over you , but to be led    by the CHRIST /HOLY SPIRIT   WITNESS   within you  ALIVE AND WELL


and giving  the glory to the FATHER       

Everything    come out of God  and  is manifested    , made known and everything will go back into God  , the consuming Fire   & HOLY SPIRIT of LOVE ,  purified  as it was  , is and will be     known and understood by revelation   of Jesus Christ ..


:HeartThrob:

by the increase   of God Himself   

Quote from: Tom on May 02, 2015, 08:28:46 PM
Well, that's one way to look at it, but maybe that "world to come" is the same world in a future time in a different form or appearance that is so radically changed that it's perceived to be another "olam" or "aion" whether you want to think of it as time or space or both. I think the use of the word "world" instead of "eon" is more figurative than literal because I think it will be the same world in a different time. We are said to be new creations which I think is in a figurative sense now but will be in a literal sense when we're actually changed (1 Corinthians 15:52). A "new creation" seems to say something completely different, but something about us will probably still be the same or we wouldn't still be who we were. I'm thinking about when Christ was transformed on the mountain (Matthew 17:1-9). He was probably seen more like he actually is than how they usually perceived him in the flesh, which may be similar to how we'll appear when we're changed, but I think something about us will be unique and recognizable. Something strange I experienced when I was in the light was a sense of just knowing without having to be told. Information was intuitive. No spoken language was necessary. I think we may all experience that in the future, and all the different languages created at Babel will be unnecessary because God will be all in all. So there will be instant communication between us, but something about us will be recognizable even though we will be radically changed.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheJudgmentOfTheNations.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I see what you are saying and in a I agree, altho I see "world" as olam not meaning "earth". it is more akin to a combination of aion and kosmos, denoting both a change in "age" and the "world" of that specific age- and the very elements, or nature of that world/age. (Which you express beautifully in the first line of your post)

2 Pet 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Speaking specifically of aion being translated "world" as evidience of the "olam" connection, I think Jesus(in Mt 25) may have been speaking in the sense of olam(translated "aionian"). Peter uses "kosmos", not "gaia"(earth) to speak of the destruction of the "world that was", in order to create a new "world" through Noah, to restore righteousness to the kosmos. This is in keeping, I think, with Peter's prophesy about this "world" being destroyed by fire "in which the "elements"(stoicheon, elementary principles) would melt away with "fervent heat"to make way for a "new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells" (a tabernacle of righteousness). Earth will no longer contain a "world of the ungodly", "olam ha-ba" will be a world of harmony and light in Messiah(the word of the Lord will "cover the earth" as will the "glory of the Lord", which is love and light- righteousness)

This, imo, is what Jesus is speaking of in Matt 25 when He uses "aionian pyr"(olam fire) and "aionian kolassis" (olam correction) which is consistent with 1 Cor 3 "every persons works will be tested by fire for the Day shall reveal it".

The Day of the Lord is a fire that consumes all darkness, transforming the "world" from futility/chaos(without form and void) into a tabernacle of righteousness(conformed/transformed into the image of Messiah) through the ages.

I think the continuous usage of "the Day of the Lord" throughout the prophets and into the new covenant is a testimony not to a "date", but rather a continuous process of "Let there be light"- recreation, "Behold, I make all things new", from the Alpha(beginning) to the Omega(all in all) of "an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ". Meaning that, the Day is growing from dawn to full noon over all time, punctuated by changes in administrative ages, of which the following:

Creation; the flood; the first Advent; the second advent; the end of the millenial kingdom and beginning of that next age of the purification of the wicked- are the punctuation marks and "worlds" of proceeding ages that make up one long continuous "Day" as the revelation of Jesus Christ renews the "world" of men and angels(heavens and earth) until the "restoration of all things" is complete- the final "olam/aion". :o)

I agree with what you said about the mount of transfiguration and Babel, "knowing as we are known" and the sense of what we are now being "swallowed up" (covered over, transformed and revivified) by "new life" and "new creation". Exciting stuff we see through aglass darkly! :o)

IMO this truth about "olam" as the Day of the Lord is the place where "fullfilled" perspective and "historical" perspective meet together as the two sides of one beautiful, glorious coin of truth- not about dates, but punctuated by them in the process of a prophetically fulfilled(in Christ) revelation playing itself out through history(world/ages) - the sixth foundation of Hebrew 6:1-2, which is "eternal judgment"(aionian kritas), Gods reason for the ages

To me, if it is addressing the counterarguments that we get from ET or EDers, if they are convincing seekers that if judgment is temporary then life is temporary, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:53:

"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." and 2 Timothy 1:10 "Christ has brought both life and immortality to light through the gospel."

Regardless of how Tom, John, me and others might differ on our view of eonian life, we can probably all agree that the Bible specifically and explicitly calls out immortality as a benefit and promise of the Gospel. ET objection addressed. Immortals cannot die.

In my experience this tends to drain the fearmongering out of the conversation so seekers can rely on the truth that deathlessness is a promise of the Gospel that they can depend on, then they can study and interpret what they think eonian life is, without having that threat stinking up the conversation.

 

  Thanks bros !! 

  I like it to this also ,   we  either or die in our sins or die in Christ    when we literally die  of being human    , having anion life is the Christ life   
but those who do not know God  , the LIGHT of   the gospel    have no sin /error 

sins imputed against them    romans 4 7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,...


where there is no  Law   there is no sin  , many die in this manner , its those whom  believe they are keeping all the law and  in this manner are in error , because you say you see your sin remains    ......  every jot and tittle    if you broke one  you broke them all   
making us all debtors     

Romans 5    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Its the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that brings death through this Law

   the Law of liberty   James 2 A Warning against Favoritism
...11For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
James 1:25, "But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing."  "law of faith" in Romans 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

and we know that faith come from God the FATHER      flesh and blood cannot ever reveal       JESUS CHRIST      the Son of God  lamb of God the gift of Life     

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.John 8 ;36  free from the law of sin and death     

Love fulfills the law
Romans 13:8-10


8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


It is His power in us that gives us the ability to please God  though His own Spirit        no flesh pleases God   

  (Galatians 5:13–16).Life by the Spirit
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free.(A) But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a];(B) rather, serve one another(C) humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.



  If you know that mercy was shown by the Lord   to you , it is only right to show mercy to   those whom    are  suffering in sin sickness and death the very  same way the Lord saved you out of  sin and death      , pray and believe God can save       , He  did this  for  all  of us    not the few so many of the eternal   tormentors  and   eternal damnation  believers   speak    &      force upon   .     Do they really know God ?   

  This knowledge was in part ,tree of    knowledge   of   good/  light  and evil/darkness     and judgment    in both    doing good and doing evil         it is   the perfect that comes    '' Jesus Christ ''  that   fulfills the     complete         Law    in perfect Love      :icon_flower:   

  Amen Rose, "This is the decree.. my begotten Son" (ps 2) "who alone has immortality" (1 Tim 6:16).. "He has included all under sin" .."the wages" (payment,result) "of sin is death" "The day comes when the dead will hear my voice, and will awaken, some to the resurrection of life and some to the resurrection of judgment" (also means "decision" the resurrection of decision)..

Olam as what is at or beyond the horizon ..a very distant time. A common phrase "l'olam va'ed" usually translated "forever and ever" but a much closer translation would be "to the distant horizon and again" meaning pretty much, "a very distant time and even further" ..a very ancient or future time..

I've been studying the ancient feasts of Israel as set up by our almighty Father and how they are a type and shadow.. Every year Israel had a judgment day, a day when they afflicted their souls, and their sins were pardoned, and anyone who did not afflict their soul on that day would be cut off.. (from the people).. the spring Holy Days, it's easy to see, were a type and shadow of Jesus' first advent.. seeing as He is the Passover Lamb, the Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits..

After His return with the mighty blast of "Trumpets" (the six of culmination/Revelation) and the last trump.. comes ten days/1000 years, followed by "Day of Atonement", then 5 days/500 years (it would seem) later "Tabernacles" when "all things are made new" and "the Father will now Tabernacle with man". (Rev ch 20)

"While we were yet sinners He died for us" - for us all.. We know many verses say "all" so we know "all" will repent and be reconciled.. "Unless you repent, ye shall all likewise perish"..

"But thanks be to God who makes us to be more than conquerors" over the flesh, our own lower, imperfect nature, which "cannot please God".
          :dsunny: :cloud9:

Quote from: Seth on May 02, 2015, 11:47:03 PM
To me, if it is addressing the counterarguments that we get from ET or EDers, if they are convincing seekers that if judgment is temporary then life is temporary, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:53:

"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." and 2 Timothy 1:10 "Christ has brought both life and immortality to light through the gospel."

Regardless of how Tom, John, me and others might differ on our view of eonian life, we can probably all agree that the Bible specifically and explicitly calls out immortality as a benefit and promise of the Gospel. ET objection addressed. Immortals cannot die.

In my experience this tends to drain the fearmongering out of the conversation so seekers can rely on the truth that deathlessness is a promise of the Gospel that they can depend on, then they can study and interpret what they think eonian life is, without having that threat stinking up the conversation.

I agree with that, but ETrs and EDrs often just reverse the argument, agreeing with immortality, but only for those who "believe". Explaining the meaning of olam, and showing how it is used in the OT, then proving that aion/aionian is derivative of olam, is(imo) a strong evidence that life can last forever(aionian/olam life) and correction until one is corrected(aionian/olam kolassis)- all without any redefining of biblical concepts.

 


  Thanks Marie ,,    it is about Jesus Christ  ,,    this Name is the  '' anointed  name ''above all  names   by the Spirit of truth ''GOD''  ..     the  Son of God  and the Son of Man

and the  center between two worlds   .



 
   For me the word olam     has always been defined in ECC  3   as to what it describes   

  and it appears to be  the world   as we know it   in our youth ,without  knowing God   
  Gods  plan is ''hidden''    as the wisdom of the world does not know God

Olam is a Hebrew word which means "World" or "Hidden"


http://www.abarim-publications.com/Dictionary/ay/ay-l-mfin.html#.VUYvp_lViko


Ecclesiastes 3 Expanded Bible (EXB)

There Is a Time for Everything
3 There is a ·time [season] for everything,
    and ·everything [every activity] ·on earth [L under heaven] has its ·special season [time].
2 There is a time to be born
    and a time to die.
There is a time to plant
    and a time to ·pull up plants [uproot what has been planted].
3 There is a time to kill
    and a time to heal.
There is a time to ·destroy [tear down]
    and a time to build.
4 There is a time to cry
    and a time to laugh.
There is a time to ·be sad [mourn]
    and a time to dance.
5 There is a time to throw away stones
    and a time to gather them.
There is a time to ·hug [embrace]
    and a time ·not to hug [to refrain from embracing].
6 There is a time to ·look for something [seek]
    and a time to ·stop looking for it [L give up as lost; or lose].
There is a time to keep things
    and a time to throw things away.
7 There is a time to tear apart
    and a time to sew together.
There is a time to be silent
    and a time to speak.
8 There is a time to love
    and a time to hate.
There is a time for war
    and a time for peace.
God Controls His World
9 ·Do [L What do] people really ·gain anything [profit] from their ·work [toil; 1:3]?

10 I saw the ·hard work [task] God has given people to ·do [keep them occupied; 1:13].


11 God has ·given them a desire to know the future [L placed eternity/an awareness of time/or ignorance in their hearts]. He ·does everything just right and on time [L makes everything appropriate/beautiful in its time], but people can never ·completely understand what he is doing [L discover/find the work that God does from beginning to end; C humans cannot discern the "right time"].


12 So I ·realize [know] that ·the best thing [L there is nothing better] for them is to be happy and enjoy themselves as long as they live. 13 God wants all people to eat and drink and be happy in their ·work [toil], which are gifts from God [2:24–26; 3:22; 5:18–20; 8:15; 9:7–10; C the little pleasures are distractions from the meaningless world].

14 I know that everything God does will continue forever. People cannot add anything to what God has done, and they cannot take anything away from it. God does it this way to make people ·respect [or be afraid of; 5:7; 7:18; 8:12, 13] him.

15 What happens now has happened in the past,
    and what will happen in the future has happened before.
God makes the same things happen again and again.
Unfairness on Earth
16 I also saw this ·here on earth [L under the sun; 1:3]:
·Where there should have been justice [L The place of judgment], there was evil;
    ·where there should have been right [L the place of righteousness; C the courtroom], there was evil.
17 I said ·to myself [L in my heart],
·God has planned [L There is] a time for every ·thing [activity] and every action,
so he will judge both ·good people and bad [the righteous and the evil/wicked].
18 I ·decided [L said in my heart concerning the human race] that God ·leaves it the way it is to test people and [L tests them] to show them they are just like animals.


19 The ·same thing happens to animals and to people [L fate of people and the fate of animals are the same/one fate]; they both have the same breath, so they both die. People ·are no better off than [have no advantage over] the animals, because everything is useless [1:2].


20 ·Both end up the same way [All go to the same place]; both came from dust and both will go back to dust.

21 Who ·can be sure [knows] that the human spirit goes up above and that the spirit of an animal goes down into the ground?


22 So I saw that ·the best thing people can do is [L there is nothing better for people than] to ·enjoy [rejoice in] their work, because that is ·all they have [L their reward; 2:24–26; 3:12–14; 5:18–20; 8:15; 9:7–10; C the little pleasures are distractions from the meaningless world]. ·No one can help another person [L Who can bring them to...?] see what will happen in the future.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 03, 2015, 11:47:35 AM

Quote from: Seth on May 02, 2015, 11:47:03 PM
To me, if it is addressing the counterarguments that we get from ET or EDers, if they are convincing seekers that if judgment is temporary then life is temporary, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:53:

"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." and 2 Timothy 1:10 "Christ has brought both life and immortality to light through the gospel."

Regardless of how Tom, John, me and others might differ on our view of eonian life, we can probably all agree that the Bible specifically and explicitly calls out immortality as a benefit and promise of the Gospel. ET objection addressed. Immortals cannot die.

In my experience this tends to drain the fearmongering out of the conversation so seekers can rely on the truth that deathlessness is a promise of the Gospel that they can depend on, then they can study and interpret what they think eonian life is, without having that threat stinking up the conversation.

I agree with that, but ETrs and EDrs often just reverse the argument, agreeing with immortality, but only for those who "believe". Explaining the meaning of olam, and showing how it is used in the OT, then proving that aion/aionian is derivative of olam, is(imo) a strong evidence that life can last forever(aionian/olam life) and correction until one is corrected(aionian/olam kolassis)- all without any redefining of biblical concepts.

If they tell me that it's only for those who believe then I show them the rest of the scriptures proving that all shall be saved. I use the immortality scriptures to show that just because eonian punishment doesn't last forever doesn't mean that there is no immortality.

The Bible shows that immortality is promised. Even if eonian life was recieving a peanut butter sandwich, immortality is still in the Gospel. The point is to show that UR does not threaten immortality promised to believers which is a stumbling block for many.

In other words, how is "immortality" not eternal life in and of itself? I could prove immortality is for believers even if the phrase aionios zoe never appeared in the Bible. Whether it's ONLY for believers is where allllll the other scriptures come into play. Seeking ET believers are wondering where UR can support immortality for believers at all. It can.

As an ETer, I would not have been convinced if someone told me eonian life CAN last forever. I would have wanted to know if it DOES. I would have been uncomfortable with the "indefinite" aspect of it and would have wanted a more solid assurance that it would be forever life.

I never remember my preachers ever using the word "immortality" even though it's in the Bible. I didn't start seeing the term in a Biblical context until researching UR.

There are many arguments proving UR. It isnt really that obscure, it is just veiled by broken systems of theology. However, Matthew 25 is a problem for many folks. I find that understanding "olam" is one of several wonderful ways of demonstrating the truth in that context. I was not attempting to make it like some "cure all" or "the most important thing" either, lol

But after all, the thread OP was about the meaning of "olam", and it would be just as big an error to undervalue the importance of understanding the relationship between "olam" and "aion/aionian". Olam "only" occurs 438 times in the OT- it is an important word in the UR paradigm- just as important as understanding aion, sheol, gehenna, pas or any of the other words that must be properly translated in order to fully understand the truth of the restoration of all things. :o)

It is clear that "aionian zoe" is immortality. Therefore, whenever someone "believes" they begin to experience aionian zoe. So in 1 Cor 15, we see that eventually all will receive aionian zoe- each in his own order. So all will eventually be immortal. In Phil 2 :9-11 we see that eventually all will believe. How can the eternal God be all in all and death be abolished unless all become immortal at some point.

As in Adam all died so also in Christ sahall al be made alive, but each in his own order. That order will be fulfilled though the completion of the ages, "an administration suitable to the fulness of times".

Different aspects of the truth make the most initial impact on different people, but every one of these aspects are weapons in the arsenal of a warrior of truth.

"Our weapons are not carnal, but mighty through God for the pulling down of every stronghold and fortress, that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God"

Well, I respect your opinion, but it's not clear to me that aionios zoe is immortality. I think it's clear to me that it's the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And I disagree that olam means endless, or infinite. I think it means to the visible horizon, and that as Marie said l'olam va'ed means to the horizon and beyond. I don't believe that such a viewpoint puts the promise of immortality at risk in any way. Just my opinion.

I never said olam means eternal, infinite

I have repeatedly said it is defined in union with the subject it is attached to, sometimes meaning eternal(when attached to God), sometimes defining a brief period of years(a slaves indenture), sometimes meaning the distant past, sometimes the distant future, sometimes meaning world/age. Indefinite futurity or indefintie antiquity are classic definitions in Thayer, Briggs-Driver and others.

But someone would have to show me anywhere that olam means "visible". It refers to the horizon in its etymology, yes- but all resources I have read say it is the horizon and beyond."Beyond view" is a true definition of olam.  A cursory examination of the 438 usages of olam in the OT bears that out, just from context, imo.

Also, I think I could at least say with confidence that immortality is a major element of aionian zoe- always accompanying it, at the very least :o)

Well, I'm just now getting a chance to check out the thread today guys, and I'm beginning to wonder if I'm experiencing an eternal virus because it's starting to seem like it might last forever. I still think immortality and eonian life are two different things even though I think believers will begin to experience immortality during eonian life in the next couple of eons, but that's according to how I mostly see eonian life as what we're going to have in the future while unbelievers don't even though they will receive immortality at the end of eonian life. I know there's some variation of interpretation of eonian life, but it seems like only believers are promised it in scripture. I realize according to an alternative interpretation that believers are experiencing it now while unbelievers aren't, but I have a more literal interpretation. I don't think believers who have died experienced eonian life literally or immortality before they died, but I think they will receive both along with any believers who are alive when we're all snatched away and Christ meets us in the air. Then I think that immortality will continue from then on beyond the end of the eons which will be the end of the experience of eonian life. I think the thing about "olam" and "aion" is that they both indicate an indefinite finite period of time even though the end is not in view. I think the endless ages thing comes from pagan philosophy, but scripture indicates that there will be an end to the eons. I think some folks might get a little worried about what's going to be happening after that, but I just trust God because I think it's going to be amazing for everybody to be filled with the love of God without any evil or death messing with us.

Quote from: eaglesway on May 04, 2015, 03:13:37 AM
I never said olam means eternal, infinite

I have repeatedly said it is defined in union with the subject it is attached to, sometimes meaning eternal(when attached to God), sometimes defining a brief period of years(a slaves indenture), sometimes meaning the distant past, sometimes the distant future, sometimes meaning world/age.

But never meaning infinite life. That's what would have bothered me as an ETer. You'd have to make the assumption that olam is attached to immortal life in order for it to mean eternal. But the Bible doesn't say "olam immortal life." To me it would have  sounded like you want it to mean eternal when attached to life but temporary when attached to punishment all based on how you interpret scripture. Nothing in "olam" inherently means "eternal." It's all based on how you interpret.

That would be a hard pill to swallow as someone who had once believed it always meant eternal apart from the need to interpret what it's attached to and now I have this element of uncertainty which actually is inherent in the word olam.

QuoteIndefinite futurity or indefintie antiquity are classic definitions in Thayer, Briggs-Driver and others.

Right. Indefinite life. If it becomes infinite, then it becomes defined. Indefinite means you don't know.

QuoteBut someone would have to show me anywhere that olam means "visible".

I didn't say it meant visible.

Quote from: Tom on May 04, 2015, 03:24:03 AM
Well, I'm just now getting a chance to check out the thread today guys, and I'm beginning to wonder if I'm experiencing an eternal virus because it's starting to seem like it might last forever. I still think immortality and eonian life are two different things even though I think believers will begin to experience immortality during eonian life in the next couple of eons, but that's according to how I mostly see eonian life as what we're going to have in the future while unbelievers don't even though they will receive immortality at the end of eonian life. I know there's some variation of interpretation of eonian life, but it seems like only believers are promised it in scripture. I realize according to an alternative interpretation that believers are experiencing it now while unbelievers aren't, but I have a more literal interpretation. I don't think believers who have died experienced eonian life literally or immortality before they died, but I think they will receive both along with any believers who are alive when we're all snatched away and Christ meets us in the air. Then I think that immortality will continue from then on beyond the end of the eons which will be the end of the experience of eonian life. I think the thing about "olam" and "aion" is that they both indicate an indefinite finite period of time even though the end is not in view. I think the endless ages thing comes from pagan philosophy, but scripture indicates that there will be an end to the eons. I think some folks might get a little worried about what's going to be happening after that, but I just trust God because I think it's going to be amazing for everybody to be filled with the love of God without any evil or death messing with us.

This is an interesting thread, and I pretty much agree with this (hope your virus clears up Tom!) I think "putting on immortality" at Jesus' return is what is meant when He said those who believe "will never die"..

Where I differ with mainstream thought and doctrine is with the idea of humans having natural inherent immortality, which of course, is what requires a `hell` or `realm of the dead` as opposed to the grave, which I believe is what sheol always was.. .."King of kings and Lord of Lords, who only has immortality" 1 Tim 6:16..

age-during or age-lasting life is what I think of as life or the HS we have during this age.. (I may be off on that view, not sure:) And survivors of this system of things when it goes through armageddon and all, I think the life span of those survivors who "believe" will greatly increase into "age-during" (or olam?), which I think Isaiah 65:20 is alluding to (?)
"Never again will there be in it
    an infant who lives but a few days,
    or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
    will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
    will be considered accursed." (NIV)

And then at the "all in all" event when the Son hands over the Kingdom to the Father and all things are made new and the throne of God and the New Jerusalem come to the Earth made new, and God the Father will Himself "Tabernacle" with mankind upon Earth of paradise restored, and all things have been subdued. Death, etc having been thrown into the LOF. To me, the absolute worst case scenario is age-during LOF (for any extremely hard nosed cases) as I believe the Day(age?) of Judgment (great review) will ultimately be a great day of atonement+reconciliation, modeled after Israel's ancient autumn Feast Day of Atonement which was an annual day of individual and collective repentance/afflicting of ones soul, and forgiveness and pardoning of their sins through the ancient system of temple sacrifices; a type and shadow, of course, of Jesus, our Passover Lamb.
    :2c: :smile:

Quote from: Seth on May 04, 2015, 03:25:55 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on May 04, 2015, 03:13:37 AM
I never said olam means eternal, infinite

I have repeatedly said it is defined in union with the subject it is attached to, sometimes meaning eternal(when attached to God), sometimes defining a brief period of years(a slaves indenture), sometimes meaning the distant past, sometimes the distant future, sometimes meaning world/age.

But never meaning infinite life. That's what would have bothered me as an ETer. You'd have to make the assumption that olam is attached to immortal life in order for it to mean eternal. But the Bible doesn't say "olam immortal life." To me it would have  sounded like you want it to mean eternal when attached to life but temporary when attached to punishment all based on how you interpret scripture. Nothing in "olam" inherently means "eternal." It's all based on how you interpret.

That would be a hard pill to swallow as someone who had once believed it always meant eternal apart from the need to interpret what it's attached to and now I have this element of uncertainty which actually is inherent in the word olam.

QuoteIndefinite futurity or indefintie antiquity are classic definitions in Thayer, Briggs-Driver and others.

Right. Indefinite life. If it becomes infinite, then it becomes defined. Indefinite means you don't know.

QuoteBut someone would have to show me anywhere that olam means "visible".

I didn't say it meant visible.

Well LOL I hate to throw a monkey wrench in my own works, but sometimes olam is infinite life....(imo of course) Again, I have to say this is based on the usage in the OT. If olam is joined to God, it can mean (olam God) eternal- assuming infinite and eternal are the same.

I have a few question to ask to try to figure out what you mean. When God is "all in all" is that aionian life? immortality? eternal? everlasting?

Is there an eternal state? and if so, what is it called in scripture?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life(aionian zoe).

"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. (immortality- im-not mortalis-dying)

These two verses seem to me to be saying the same thing. aionian zoe endures forever because it is "not dying"- immortal, is never dying.

This is the reason why I believe aionian zoe and immortality, if not the same thing, are aspects of the same thing inextricably interwoven together, in Christ, in the new creation.

Maybe for some the fear is that if we allow "aionian" to mean forever in regards to life- we must allow it to mean forever in regards to kolassis. Viewing "aionian" as "olam" removes that fear correctly. olam and aionian are adjectives conditional upon the subject they describe.

QuoteWell LOL I hate to throw a monkey wrench in my own works, but sometimes olam is infinite life....(imo of course) Again, I have to say this is based on the usage in the OT. If olam is joined to God, it can mean (olam God) eternal- assuming infinite and eternal are the same.

As I understand it, olam means an indefinite (unknown) amount of time. It doesn't mean indefinite until such a time as I say it means definitely infinite and not less. That fudges the basic meaning of OLAM in my opinion.

QuoteI have a few question to ask to try to figure out what you mean. When God is "all in all" is that aionian life? immortality? eternal? everlasting?

Since death is destroyed at that point, it would be all of them. The indwelling of God plus immortality. If either situation is unaccounted for death is not destroyed and God is not all in all.

QuoteIs there an eternal state? and if so, what is it called in scripture?

I would call that the state of immortality or being immortal. The scripture says that God is olam/aion, invisible and immortal (1 tim 1:17). He is king olam, to the horizon into the indefinite future, plus he is invisible, plus he is immortal.

Quote"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life(aionian zoe).

The word "perish" is from appolumi which doesn't mean "die" but us actually the word used for "lost" used to describe those who don't know God or have a relationship with God. The same word was used for the Prodigal son. He was lost then found. Being the indwelling of the Spirit, it is saying that those who believe in Christ will be saved from their state of being lost by being given the Spirit of God. Those who hate their neighbors are have not passed from death to life and no murderer has eonian life within him.

QuoteMaybe for some the fear is that if we allow "aionian" to mean forever in regards to life- we must allow it to mean forever in regards to kolassis. Viewing "aionian" as "olam" removes that fear correctly. olam and aionian are adjectives conditional upon the subject they describe.

It wouldn't alleviate that fear for me because of the indefinite nature of the word olam. That indefinite nature is what I believe is an age. To me, it doesn't matter if eonian life was only eonian life as long as there are eons. This mortal must put on immortality. Case closed for me. So even if eonian life does not mean forever life but indefinite life or "life to the horizon", immortals cannot die and death will be destroyed.

I don't think association of "olam" or "aion" with God makes them mean "infinite." The "eonian God" (Romans 16:26) is simply speaking about God during the eons just as "eonian life" refers to life during the eons. That's why I keep saying that "eonian life" will end because the eons will end, but life will not end because of immortality.

Well Seth, Thanks for answering my questions. I still think aionian zoe and immortality are the same, but we can agree to disagree. Clearly, olam, in the OT is something that cannot be limited within the concept of an age.

It is not possible to justify such a limited meaning when looking at all the usages of olam in the OT.

We will have to agree to disagree at this point, but olam definitely includes everlasting in some uses as I see it, an is "very varied" in its application to time and also the unknown world, distances unseeable but vaguely remembered, seeing through a glass darkly, etc.

The thread is on the meaning of "olam". Olam is the root from which aionion is drawn, so I am asserting that eonioan should be understood in the light of "olam". To try to understand "olam" through the Greek use of eonian is cart before the horse in my opinion, so I guess we will agree to disagree there as well.

Unless one have really done the work( I am not saying you havent, I dont know) of going through the ovr 400 uses of olam in the OT, they cannot understand the variety of application for it, and how it works in the Hebrew language.  I personally dont see how anyone who thoroughly studies the OT usages of "olam" woulld not at least acknowledge the fact that it also includes eternity in some usages.

The "olam" (horizon and beyond) includes eternity, and at the very least when it is used as an adjective of God, it includes immortality- and that is quite often in the OT.

Also, The relation of appolumi to aionian zoe, regardless of how you define it, is that if you "believe" it wont happen to you. Perishing includes dying and Death is the overal source of perishing, but the question was not about dying versus perishing, it was whther aionian zoe is eternal/immortal- both as a quality of existence AND a duration of existence, and whether thay are the same thing.

I guess we disagree pretty substantially in this area of study :o)

It will all come to light in the "olam ha-ba" (world to come).

I think it also important to note that "olam" is not a word that has passed from use. It is still used and understood by Jewish rabbis/theologians today. Altho language definitley changes, "olam" is a Hebrew word that has maintained continuous use through the centuries of Hebrew thought, and therefore retains at least some degree of its original meaning in its contemporary usage. So, to wrap up, since the thread is about the meaning of "olam", I would reccomend to anyone and everyone that it is worth the study- especially going through the uses of it in the OT, but also its contemporary use.

"Tikkun olam" is a contemporary use, meaning "healing the world".

"Olam ha-ba" is the world to come, having been healed.

"Olam ha-ze" is this present wounded world.

BTW, all these concepts are consistent with the restoration of all things, especialy Ro 8:18-23 and Eph 1:9-11 and Eph 2:7 :o)

They are all contemporary uses that go back the early rabbinic period (6th century)and before, so there is a relatively secure assurance of continuity.

The "world" aspect of olam cannot be reasonably ignored either, and reflects also on aion- that is why aion has been translated "world" and "aions of  aions" has been translated "worlds without end"- aion comes from "olam".

QuoteIt is not possible to justify such a limited meaning when looking at all the usages of olam in the OT.

I believe it absolutely is possible. When attached to God, for example, I see "olam God" would be "God to the horizon," or "God into the indefinite future" generation to generation as time moves forward. That has no negative impact on his immortality, the fact that I retain the meaning of "indefinite future" without changing the meaning to infinite.

QuoteWe will have to agree to disagree at this point, but olam definitely includes everlasting in some uses as I see it, an is "very varied" in its application to time and also the unknown world, distances unseeable but vaguely remembered, seeing through a glass darkly, etc.

That's cool. I just don't think the opposing viewpoint (of not believing olam changes meaning) weakens the teaching of UR.

QuoteUnless one have really done the work( I am not saying you havent, I dont know) of going through the ovr 400 uses of olam in the OT, they cannot understand the variety of application for it, and how it works in the Hebrew language.  I personally dont see how anyone who thoroughly studies the OT usages of "olam" woulld not at least acknowledge the fact that it also includes eternity in some usages.

I think it means "to the horizon" or "indefinite (unknown) future or past" and I don't think it changes meaning depending on attachments. And that does not mitigate God's status as immortal or undying. If I see a bridge and I say "it's a great bridge." I might mean it's a good quality bridge or a big bridge. That depends on my intention, not on the attachment of "great" to "bridge."

Similarly, I could say God is great. That might mean I am saying God is big or God is considerably above average. The fact that I attached "great" to "God" does not affect the meaning of "great" either way, my intention does.

Attaching "olam" to "life" doesn't automatically change the meaning of "olam." It still means "to the horizon," and olam va'ed means "to the horizon and beyond."

QuoteAlso, The relation of appolumi to aionian zoe, regardless of how you define it, is that if you "believe" it wont happen to you. Perishing includes dying and Death is the overal source of perishing, but the question was not about dying versus perishing, it was whther aionian zoe is eternal/immortal- both as a quality of existence AND a duration of existence, and whether thay are the same thing.

But you were asking me questions about how I would view that scripture. In relation to how "appolumi" is used in other passages of the Bible, the LOST sheep and the LOST coin and the LOST son, the fact that I believe "eonian life" is the indwelling of God is what leads me to believe that it is saying that the Holy Spirit will be given to believers to save them from their lost state. That's just my opinion which is what I thought you were asking, about how I would interpret that scripture through my view of eonian life.

Quote"Tikkun olam" is a contemporary use, meaning "healing the world".

"Olam ha-ba" is the world to come, having been healed.

"Olam ha-ze" is this present wounded world".

All these concepts are consistent with the restoration of all things, especialy Ro 8:18-23 and Eph 1:9-11 and Eph 2:7 :o)

They are all contemporary uses that go back the early rabbinic period (6th century)and before, so there is a relatively secure assurance of continuity.

The "world" aspect of olam cannot be reasonably ignored either, and that is why aion has been translated "world" and "aions of  aions" has been translated "worlds without end"- aion comes from "olam".

"World" doesn't mean infinity on its own either. In that case, you would need another adjective to describe the "world" as infinite in itself, like "infinite olam."

1 Tim 1:17
Now unto the King eternal (aion), immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I believe that is saying to the king "olam" (into the indefinite future, or of the world), invisible, and immortal. Three aspects of his character together. Saying that olam does not mean infinite in this case, doesn't detract from the other aspect of his character of being immortal.

In that case, I could let olam retain it's meaning of "indefinite future" or "to the horizon" and not question the infinite nature of God, and what I am saying is that you can do that in ALL cases of olam in relation to God because the Bible says he is immortal.

The Concordant Publishing Concern had people working on the word "olam" for quite awhile, and they published an English translation of the Hebrew scriptures. They don't say that "olam" means "eternity."

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

Thanks fellas.....ya'all are far way deeper into whatever is or ain't for my little mind to gather. For me it started out helpful but turned into an horizon of ages. No offence, but i just got real confused and didn't learn much, but then again I am slow to pick up.  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Well, not every discussion is fruitful for everyone. Some discussions are fruitful for no one LOL. I put it out there because "olam" has been a continuing study of mine, so it was at least enjoyable for me,  :Peace2:

"And thats all I have to say about that" ;o)

From aion-aionios by John Wesley Hanson

"The word that is rendered aiõn-aiõnios in the Greek Septuagint, and everlasting, eternal, etc., in the English Bible, is õlam, in the original Hebrew Scriptures, derived from olm to cover, or conceal. It literally means hidden, unknown, and, when applied to time, it signifies indefinite duration, whether past or future. Thus, the hills are said to exist from olam. As the Hebrew knew that they had a beginning with the creation of the earth, and would end with its destruction, of course he did not mean to say that the hills are literally everlasting when he termed them olamic. As he knew that they had a beginning, so he knew they would have an end; but as the period of their duration was unknown, he said they were from olam. The word is used in one text in both a limited and unlimited sense; and it signifies in one case only three days and three nights."

Hanson might not have agreed with me that olam can include everlasting. I might not be correct about that, and i dont think it can be absolutely proved either way. But he definitely agreed that olam is the root of aion/aionian and that it cannot be limited to meaning an "age".

From Andrew Jukes, The Names of God,  - chapter "El Olam"

"The word "Olam" has two senses, though the connexion between the two is obvious. Its first and original sense is to "conceal," or "hide," or something "hidden."

Jukes however definitely agrees with Seth's position and defines El Olam as "God of the age".

"Hence it came to mean "time hidden from man," or "time indefinite"........  But that strictly speaking it expresses a limited time is clear, not only from many passages where the time referred to can only be a life-time, or till the year of Jubilee, or for the period of the Jewish dispensation, but from other passages, where the word is redoubled or used in the plural, (which it could not be if it meant "for ever,") where its meaning is "for ages," or "from age to age."

My basis for believing "olam" includes etrnity is simply that eternity is also "hidden from man"....."concealed"....unknowable". I would not make that a critical issue of that tho- my main emphasis is that Olam may be 3 days to age-during, so aionian kolassis may last for some 3 days(just an example) and for some 1000 years(just an example). It is unknowable in this present age.

Many stripes, few stripes.

Jukes however agrees that olam/aion is not limited in meaning to "age".....

"We find the word(olam) again in Hannah's utterance, where she says, "I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and abide there for ever;" words which she afterwards explains by saying, "As long as he liveth, he shall be lent unto the Lord" (1 Sam. 1:22, 28). So again Achish says of David, when he came to Gath, "He shall be my servant for ever" (1 Sam. 27:12). The same word is sometimes simply translated "time," as in the law of redemption of inheritances, where we read, that "the houses in their cities the Levites may redeem at any "time"(olam) (Lev. 25:32).

In Lev 25:32 olam simply means a time of appointed redemption, indefinite because it was whenever a Levite chose to redeem it, a randomly selected appointment, of no significant duration in this case, being "olam"

However, Hanson agrees with Seth about olam not including eternity here(I love to thow the monkey wrench into my own works)

"There is no evidence that any words in the Old Testament implying duration refer to the future' life of man. Neither is it certain that the ancients, by the terms of duration which they employed to describe the Divine existence, fully comprehended the. idea of interminable existence. Indeed, this is an idea beyond the reach of any human intelligence."

I disagree with him only on this basis. The fact that he says there is no evidence that supports the ancients fully is an opinion I dont see confirmed in scripture. It appears to me that Isaiah and the Psalmist and other OT writers did comprehend that God endures forever- and I dont think there is any novelty to that thought, nor do I think we are more advanced than the prophets in our comprehension of the spiritual dimensions of God. In Isaiah 43:10 YHWH says, "before me there was no god formed and there will be no gods after me", meaning, imo, that YHWH is everlasting- the gods of the nations fleeting.

I apologize if these things are not fruitful or interesting to some. I find it fascinating. :o)

 
I find it amazing  too,  John ,  Because it was ALWAYS  a mystery to me 

I could never understand how one would get   eternal life and the other not get  eternal   destruction and fire   but only for a certain duration ?

  It just did not make any sense  ,  why God would let some have  LIFE and some suffer forever ?   , after all..."It is Him  completely whom    changes us  .

All you have to be is be desiring to change , asking for His help and wanting to please Him  , but Him alone gives the increase ..

Quote from: eaglesway on May 05, 2015, 06:05:22 AM
Well, not every discussion is fruitful for everyone. Some discussions are fruitful for no one LOL. I put it out there because "olam" has been a continuing study of mine, so it was at least enjoyable for me,  :Peace2:

"And thats all I have to say about that" ;o)

I really meant no offense and I am leaning more to the view you my friend have put forth, not that Seth and Tom are not offering good points. Last year I only received 3 peaches on my tree...and bumped the tree with my mower and all 3 fell before ripening. :sigh:

But look at the bright side....you could have had three more peach trees if you planted those peaches that fell to the ground!   :)   :dsunny:

Quote from: micah7:9 on May 05, 2015, 04:23:13 PM

Last year I only received 3 peaches on my tree...and bumped the tree with my mower and all 3 fell before ripening. :sigh:

did you ripen them on the windowsill? :smile:
                   peaches! :cloud9:

Quote from: marie glen on May 05, 2015, 05:05:19 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on May 05, 2015, 04:23:13 PM

Last year I only received 3 peaches on my tree...and bumped the tree with my mower and all 3 fell before ripening. :sigh:

did you ripen them on the windowsill? :smile:
                   peaches! :cloud9:

Peaches do not ripen after picked, believe it.

Quote from: Psalm91:4 on May 05, 2015, 04:30:38 PM
But look at the bright side....you could have had three more peach trees if you planted those peaches that fell to the ground!   :)   :dsunny:

No worries... I have about 35 this year! :dsunny:

I figured you believe eternity is included because it is also hidden. I think there's the possibility that our whole perception of reality is just a hallucination, but the truth is actually "hidden from man"..."concealed"..."unknowable" as you say just as the whole story about God and Jesus Christ could be fantasy as far as we know and as the atheists claim. We only have information from various sources that we have to decide is either credible of not. I personally believe that scripture is inspired by a spirit entity we call God, but that's just my belief or faith. I don't believe faith is "substance" as the King James Version says, but an "assumption." 

"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed." (Hebrews 11:1)

I think the ancient understanding of "olam" and "aion" was indefinite yet finite duration, but I wasn't there then. So I don't know for sure, but what I think it correctly means now is indefinite finite duration. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that makes more sense when applied to what we know about scripture than the orthodox theology of eternal anything. I think only God is "eternal," but scripture doesn't even use that word because scripture is concerned with eonian time. I know someone may try to bring up "aidios" in Romans 1:20, but I think that word has been misinterpreted by the King James Version and actually means "imperceptible" not "eternal." See the attachment. Our perception of reality could be an illusion, a computer simulation, or a hologram, but we can't know for sure because the truth is "hidden from man"..."concealed"..."unknowable" as you say. You could say anything is possible because we can't know everything. I think we have to make an intelligent decision based on all the information we have, and it seems to me that scripture is concerned with eonian time which is finite even though the end is not in view.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html


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I want one.   :)    I luv homegrown fruit. :friendstu:

Quote from: eaglesway on May 05, 2015, 07:08:16 AM

Many stripes, few stripes.

I apologize if these things are not fruitful or interesting to some. I find it fascinating. :o)

:goodpost: :goodpost: I find it fascinating too.. sometimes it seems to me as though the Hebrew and the Greek, views and speech, are opposites.. Hebrew being down to earth (or so it seems to me) and the tense is one of action.. (I read that recently and it rang true to me) whereas the Greek is more 'flighty'? and the tense is always present.. not often "did" but "is doing" for example, such as "be filled with the Spirit" is more accurately "be being filled with the Spirit"..

I find it fascinating too the different ways in which the Father speaks and teaches or makes apparent. How is it possible to read a book for thirty, forty years, and over the course of a lifetime and it's just as exciting after forty years, and perhaps even more so!

It's also interesting to hear other brothers and sisters views on things.. all this works together to make things very interesting.. Not `boring` as some would view the christian life..

"Many stripes, few stripes" I have never thought of in terms of time, very interesting. I've always thought of it as referring to the depth of remorse and regret one will feel when faced with the stark reality of God's pure and holy nature and one's own deplorable (lower nature/often translated, flesh) condition.. And now of course, I see that deeper remorse (stripes) would likely take longer..

I find it interesting how perceptions differ.. And I think the 'end' whole picture of most things will consist of most of these differing views together.. like facets, rather than how humans easily perceive things as a question of either/or.. one view `right`, another `wrong`..

I think the Hebrew is more grounded in truth than the Greek, so I appreciate a word study on "Olam" as compared to aionian..  :Chinscratch: very interesting!

Quote from: micah7:9 on May 05, 2015, 05:13:47 PM

Quote from: marie glen on May 05, 2015, 05:05:19 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on May 05, 2015, 04:23:13 PM

Last year I only received 3 peaches on my tree...and bumped the tree with my mower and all 3 fell before ripening. :sigh:

did you ripen them on the windowsill? :smile:
                   peaches! :cloud9:

Peaches do not ripen after picked, believe it.

that's too bad! :( the hard ones I can get from the grocery store do.. but of course they are never as good!

It is truly good to see discussions of difference done in an amiable way. One of the things I have been seeing as one who is literally studying every word and every letter, book by book, is that many of these concepts (although deep and vast), at their core, are so extremely simple even a young little child can grasp that core. Then, from that core, they can spend a lifetime exploring the deepness and vastness of it all.

I think of a parents love for their little child. That child responds to something it can grasp, even though there is a greater depth and vastness to a parents love that the child will only grow to appreciate over time.

I was seeing this every so strongly as I was reading through the various thoughts on this subject. There is a basic, core, simple meaning to, not only the word olam, but also all of it's derivatives. Considering all of those gives a foundational understanding from which to explore the deeper concepts of the word, from the simple to the complex.

Ronen

Quote from: gregoryfl on May 05, 2015, 08:49:01 PM
It is truly good to see discussions of difference done in an amiable way. One of the things I have been seeing as one who is literally studying every word and every letter, book by book, is that many of these concepts (although deep and vast), at their core, are so extremely simple even a young little child can grasp that core. Then, from that core, they can spend a lifetime exploring the deepness and vastness of it all.

I think of a parents love for their little child. That child responds to something it can grasp, even though there is a greater depth and vastness to a parents love that the child will only grow to appreciate over time.

I was seeing this every so strongly as I was reading through the various thoughts on this subject. There is a basic, core, simple meaning to, not only the word olam, but also all of it's derivatives. Considering all of those gives a foundational understanding from which to explore the deeper concepts of the word, from the simple to the complex.

Ronen

I am one of the simple and child like ones  bro     ,  so much more   we all are  certain,  GOD WILLING   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Tom on May 05, 2015, 05:17:34 PM
I figured you believe eternity is included because it is also hidden. I think there's the possibility that our whole perception of reality is just a hallucination, but the truth is actually "hidden from man"..."concealed"..."unknowable" as you say just as the whole story about God and Jesus Christ could be fantasy as far as we know and as the atheists claim. We only have information from various sources that we have to decide is either credible of not. I personally believe that scripture is inspired by a spirit entity we call God, but that's just my belief or faith. I don't believe faith is "substance" as the King James Version says, but an "assumption." 

"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed." (Hebrews 11:1)

I think the ancient understanding of "olam" and "aion" was indefinite yet finite duration, but I wasn't there then. So I don't know for sure, but what I think it correctly means now is indefinite finite duration. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that makes more sense when applied to what we know about scripture than the orthodox theology of eternal anything. I think only God is "eternal," but scripture doesn't even use that word because scripture is concerned with eonian time. I know someone may try to bring up "aidios" in Romans 1:20, but I think that word has been misinterpreted by the King James Version and actually means "imperceptible" not "eternal." See the attachment. Our perception of reality could be an illusion, a computer simulation, or a hologram, but we can't know for sure because the truth is "hidden from man"..."concealed"..."unknowable" as you say. You could say anything is possible because we can't know everything. I think we have to make an intelligent decision based on all the information we have, and it seems to me that scripture is concerned with eonian time which is finite even though the end is not in view.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I understand your point of view. God is aionian, and God is olam. He is El Olam. "Who has known the mind of the Lord"..."His ways are past finding out".

This does not mean we cannot know God, nor does it mean we can't know anything about YHWH.... "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son."

It simply means there are things we cannot contain, or fully comprehend- "seen through a glass darkly". There are things in God beyond our knowing. There are things in the ages to come we cannot see yet. Things far off. Things beyond our horizons. But we do know and have full asurance that God is love, and that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.

Quote from: marie glen on May 05, 2015, 05:28:38 PM

I think the Hebrew is more grounded in truth than the Greek, so I appreciate a word study on "Olam" as compared to aionian..  :Chinscratch: very interesting!

I have the same opinion about Greek and Hebrew. That perception informs my opinions about scripture, because I have always felt that the scriptures are spoken through the Hebrew mind set- as Paul said, they were given the oracles of God, and in my(minority) opinion, Jesus and the spostles all thought as Hebrews, illuminated by the God of the Hebrews and His Messiah. The inclusion of the Gentiles into the olive tree does not change the Root. The Root changes the Gentiles(or it ought to :o)

 :thumbsup: I agree! I think we will all be Israel.. in Jesus the ROCK.. the notion feels SOLID to me :smile:


..I wonder if anyone has posted this? Tom told me where to get this program a little while ago.. free and awesome..

this is the greek.. Matthew 25:46


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Marie, click on the small plus sign in the upper right corner twice, and you should see two more choices available for comparison. If you've installed all three modules, you will be able to compare the Authorized Version (King James), which you have, along with Young's Literal Translation and the Concordant Literal Version simply by right clicking on each set of initials and changing them to arrange in whatever order you choose. See the attachment.

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You can also click on any word of the the ultra-literal translation to get a pop up of the Strong's number which you can bring up in the box on the upper right by clicking on the number, but remember that's just the King James concordance. I think a more accurate concordance can be found at the end of the Concordant Literal New Testament.

Another thing to keep in mind when using the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer is the use of the Textus Receptus which means you'll see a few things in the ancient text and ultra-literal translation that aren't in the Concordant Version because the earlier Greek manuscripts are considered to be more authentic. They ran into a copyright problem awhile ago for using another manuscript. I've read that the Roman Catholic Church conned Erasmus into including the adulterated language of 1 John 5:7 by suddenly producing a manuscript that had it because he refused to do so on the grounds that it wasn't in the Greek manuscripts. That's not the only place the church committed forgery in the translation of scripture as evidenced by "Gehenna" being replaced by "hell" twelve times. After the church couldn't suppress scripture by killing people with fire by burning them at the stake, it just decided to change scripture to conform to its doctrine. That's why it's important to read an accurate translation to get the truth, and it's necessary to keep in mind that the charge of heresy against those of us who believe an accurate translation of scripture is invalid because, despite the fact that we don't conform to church doctrine, it is the church that does not conform to the word of God.

Here is the link for anybody else that wants to download the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

The Commentary Browser synchronizes with it if anybody is interested.

http://www.scripture4all.org/cbrowser/cbrowser.htm

When you download the ISA, make sure you get all three modules. The Authorized Version (King James) is with the main module, but you need to download Young's Literal Translation and the Concordant Literal Version right after it.

This next link is to a page with another handy digital tool, the URsearch program, which is a search engine of back issues of the magazine published by the Concordant folks for over a hundred years. Some issues are also included as PDF files.

http://concordant.org/ur/index.html

This next link has their Old & New Testaments in PDF files.

http://concordant.org/online/index.html

All this stuff is free, and it's helpful information for studying scripture.

You may notice a few typos in the Old Testament section of the CLV module of the ISA because the author hasn't gotten a chance to edit it yet because he's working on a Concordant Version module for eSword right now. The ones out there now weren't produced by the Concordant folks and need to be replaced because they were made even before the latest edition of the New Testament section.

If anybody is interested, the Concordant folks have a new hard copy version of the Old Testament for sale on this page.

http://concordant.org/catalog/index.html

The way I understand is right now is I am aionian and I await olam. But that is just me. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Right now I think I'm living and dying in the third and wicked eon, but, when I'm vivified, I'll be experiencing eonian life for real for the next two eons and immortality beyond the consummation of the eons.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I do beilive Jesus is judging right now   . not some other eon    or age 

HE COME TO SHOW US     , or there would be no need for Him to have come , like it was in the times of old     

  we have no  more  excuse   
...
  this is the reason the earth/world  is in total chaos      and  why were are told to read with  great diligence   


I believe      the race Paul spoke of   is overcoming IN    the  examples  of   7 churches   /   lampstands    and  7 times brighter Light as the rewards are   in them  7  and the correction /judgments  as well     

the rewards    the crown of Life , the iron   rod , hidden   manna , new name , white stone   , sitting on the throne with Him , white garments , not harmed by the second death

the punishments     taking away your lamp/ light , the second death  and being harmed by it  , Jesus himself will war against you with the Sword of his mouth
  for a few examples   
  It sounds like it an overcoming  now thing to me , not some other   time    or place







in Rev 2 24 "But ·others [the rest] of you in Thyatira have not followed her teaching and have not learned what some call Satan's deep secrets. I say to you that I will not put any other ·load [burden] on you. 25 Only ·continue in your loyalty [L hold fast to what you have] until I come.

26 "I will give ·power [authority] over the nations to everyone who ·wins the victory [overcomes; conquers] and ·continues to be obedient to me [or keeps working for me; L keeps/obeys my works] until the end.

27 '·You [L he; C the one who overcomes] will ·rule over [L shepherd] them with an iron ·rod [or scepter],
    ·as when pottery is broken into pieces [or and will break them into pieces like pottery; Ps. 2:9].'
28 This is the same ·power [authority] I received from my Father. I will also give him the morning star [C usually the planet Venus as seen before sunrise, but here symbolically Christ at his return; 22:16; Num. 24:17; 2 Pet. 1:19]. 29 Everyone who has ears should ·listen to [hear; obey] what the Spirit says to the churches. 

So you don't think Jesus is coming back?

  I believe Jesus returns  often , not once like a lot of    folks do

in the same manner   Acts   1  When Jesus     went  up in the cloud /witness

  I  know when he showed Himself to the many , He did not show Himself   to them all at once either

  it  was several   in several places   .

10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going,

behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?

This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.

  I just believe    we have a  very different  view of just what heaven is and means .    Tom

Quote from: Tom on May 06, 2015, 07:48:03 PM
Marie, click on the small plus sign in the upper right corner twice, and you should see two more choices available for comparison. If you've installed all three modules, you will be able to compare the Authorized Version (King James), which you have, along with Young's Literal Translation and the Concordant Literal Version simply by right clicking on each set of initials and changing them to arrange in whatever order you choose. See the attachment.

Oh! thanks! I was looking for that option! thanks! :2thumbs: :gsmile:

What do you think "heaven is and means," Rose?

Here's a screenshot of "heaven" from the concordance. See that attachment.

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Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 06:05:29 PM
Right now I think I'm living and dying in the third and wicked eon, but, when I'm vivified, I'll be experiencing eonian life for real for the next two eons and immortality beyond the consummation of the eons.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I agree with you and Micah
:dsunny:

Paul spoke of being caught up to the third heaven, and Genesis speaks of separating the heavens. There are hundreds of uses of heaven and heavens in the bible. Some can mean air or sky, some clearly mean more. I deduce that the lower heavens are the common functions of nature, air/wind, rain, sky, then the mid-heavens where the prince of the power of the air works along with the mind of man, then the higher levels being the abode of angels and the throne of God in the highest heaven, so that in defining "heaven" in scriptural terms one has to be a bit broader in scope than the "meaning of the word", because the word is applied to multiple levels with a unified theme.

The angels in judes 6 are bound in aidos chains under darkness reserved for the judgement of the day, so the concept of heaven also involves "inner" and "outer". The kingdom of heaven is within. Further in there is purer spirit, further out there is chaos, outer darkness.

I know we love to simplify, but not everything is simple, until our orientation is right. Then perspectives widen and deepen and perception clarifies as God takes us "up" and "in" the renewed mind and the wisdom of God in Christ, where we are "seated in the heavenly realms where abide all the spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus"(Eph)

I'm with you for most of that stuff, bro. I just provided a definition as a starting point because what it is was brought up.

I think most Christians would deny that Satan is in heaven now, but I think he is until he will be cast out. (Revelation 12:9,10) He will get chained in the submerged chaos for a thousand years, and then released long enough to deceive the nations to attack the saints. Then Satan will be cast into "the lake of fire" where he, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons. (Revelation 20:1-3; 7-10) But mortals will be dead in "the second death-the lake of fire."

Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2015, 08:38:12 PM
Paul spoke of being caught up to the third heaven, and Genesis speaks of separating the heavens. There are hundreds of uses of heaven and heavens in the bible. Some can mean air or sky, some clearly mean more. I deduce that the lower heavens are the common functions of nature, air/wind, rain, sky, then the mid-heavens where the prince of the power of the air works along with the mind of man, then the higher levels being the abode of angels and the throne of God in the highest heaven, so that in defining "heaven" in scriptural terms one has to be a bit broader in scope than the "meaning of the word", because the word is applied to multiple levels with a unified theme.

The angels in judes 6 are bound in aidos chains under darkness reserved for the judgement of the day, so the concept of heaven also involves "inner" and "outer". The kingdom of heaven is within. Further in there is purer spirit, further out there is chaos, outer darkness.

I know we love to simplify, but not everything is simple, until our orientation is right. Then perspectives widen and deepen and perception clarifies as God takes us "up" and "in" the renewed mind and the wisdom of God in Christ, where we are "seated in the heavenly realms where abide all the spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus"(Eph)

Amen John   just as I see it too  :thumbsup:

      There is many things Jesus did not say   , none could bear it at the time ,   it was when the Holy Spirit come to teach them all truth  would  they actually  learn     though experiences and   heavenly divine interaction     of the HOLY  SPIRIT   being within them     and the Christ being formed in them     

   I believe Tom and I were speaking of   two different types   of the meaning of heaven   , the heavens are plural and     the old one is  disappearing

Thanks for bringing   up and speaking  out   about the 3rd heaven  :thumbsup:     


  I am   really rejoicing about the    words of Jesus speaking it as on earth and it is in heaven   ,   when both   our minds / hearts are  accorded    as being new and as  ONE   place   in Him ,      this  is amazing  and new to me     , the Holy Spirit is showing in the scriptures now and      it changes my old way of thinking  entirely   

    and trusting Him completely  .

  Change is good when its for the better and not the worse...   :HeartThrob:   

Marie, I know about the third heaven and all that other stuff, but I don't think there is an old definition of heaven disappearing. 

I think, when people look up to "heaven," all we see is the sky which is the lower part of "heaven," but it goes higher. I think it is the "kingdom of God" that's inside you, not heaven. (Luke 17:21) Then there's "the kingdom of the heavens" which will be the earthly kingdom ruled by Christ in Jerusalem.

I think the sinning messengers of Jude 6 are possibly the same as those mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4, and, if they're in "heaven" as has been suggested, they're in a dark corner somewhere. I guess, since they're probably not down here on earth, they must be up there somewhere like maybe in one of those places in space where scientists only see dark matter or dark energy. I guess the thing is that they're all in the spirit realm. So they could be anywhere but just be blind to the light which is what I think they're being subjected to.

Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 08:46:28 PM
I think most Christians would deny that Satan is in heaven now, but I think he is until he will be cast out. (Revelation 12:9,10) He will get chained in the submerged chaos for a thousand years, and then released long enough to deceive the nations to attack the saints. Then Satan will be cast into "the lake of fire" where he, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons. (Revelation 20:1-3; 7-10) But mortals will be dead in "the second death-the lake of fire."

  I  guess Jesus was  speaking  of a different Satan than  Tom ?
  For me only and not any one else I reckon  , I see this as satan falling from the heavens in the sense of this  , these boys were   FREE!!    and the satan  that  accusing spirit that made them       prisoners by the fear of  death  ,,   they were set free in JESUS     

Just as any one of us are,,  whom have the same faith  in    Him and same Jesus   Christ    :HeartThrob:

  Luke 10  17The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19"Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

The Holy Spirit is your heavenly dwelling within     your  new  teacher and comforter   , you new conviction  comes from God not satan any longer   to accuse you before God day and night     under the old law and covenant / night = not knowing  or the new covenant of faith in Jesus Christ  =   the children of the Day   of the LORD Knowing Him

     

   If   the Son of Man   being the Son of God  sets you are free  you are  free indeed !!     we are under the new law of Liberty  , that is to  LOVE  everyone as yourself     and not to abuse this new    and glorious  work of God in you  ,   show the same mercy to others as you have been given     by the   Father though Jesus Christ .

  12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
   

It's the same Satan, sis, but church doctrine has folks believing he's in "hell" down underground torturing all the bad people in fire who never "accepted Jesus as their savior" which is pretty rotten because a lot of those people never even heard of Jesus.

God created evil.

"Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

"I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." (Ecclesiastes 1:13)

God gives Satan power to try us (Job 1:6-12,2:1-7), but Satan will eventually lose that power (1 Corinthians 15:24).

"Satan," Hebrew for "Adversary," also known as "the dragon," "the ancient serpent," and "the Slanderer," is head of the forces of evil.

Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew), meaning "Destroyer," is the messenger of the abyss.

Satan was a sinner from the beginning, but here are a few verses relevant to the so called "fall of Satan" that is not in the scriptures.

Ezekiel refers to the king of Tyre not Satan (Ezekiel 28:15). The king of Tyre is a man, and Satan is not a man (Ezekiel 28:2,9).

Isaiah refers to the King of Babylon in the future day of Israel's restoration not Satan's fall in the past (Isaiah 14:3-20). Then Satan will have been cast out of heaven (Revelation 12:9). The King of Babylon is a man (Isaiah 14:16), and Satan is not a man.

"Lucifer" is used once in the King James Version as a mistranslation of the Hebrew for "howl" (Isaiah 14:12). The same exact Hebrew word is used in (Zechariah 11:2). Variations of the word are in (Isaiah 13:6; 14:31; 15:2,3; 16:7; 23:1,6,14; 52:5; 65:14).

Luke refers to Satan's action in response to the casting out of demons in Christ's name not the so called "fall of Satan" (Luke 10:18).

"From the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (1 John 3:8)

"He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

Satan's most effective deception is the church using corrupt translation of scripture and tradition of man to invalidate the word of God.

"You invalidate the word of God because of your tradition." (Matthew 15:6)

"For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light. It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness -- whose consummation shall be according to their acts." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

The good news is evil will eventually be nullified at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24,28).
 

Tom
It's the same Satan, sis, but church doctrine has folks believing he's in "hell" down underground torturing all the bad people who never "accepted Jesus as their savior" which is pretty rotten because a lot of those people never even heard of Jesus.


Tom , brother ,   although  the name of Jesus Christ was not revealed till the new testament     , Jesus Christ   was always   !!   HE is a part of God    whom never ever    was separated     from  GOD TILL  he come  to us was sent by the Father     in the form of  mankind ,    the body God gave Him    Hebrews 2  the whole chapter       GOD come down in a lower state to  bear with us in   the  fulness of  time     , for all to come in       ...    and   destroy death by the power of His cross in knowing    that it is finished already ...   though he the LAMB OF  GOD was slain  from the foundation of the world     ....    they did not know by died in faith believing   God and that was    counted to them for righteousness    we are not righteous either   as if we could save ourselves     , its  the work god has done though His son     , the part of Him that      did the HOLY  ACT OF     MERCY ON ALL      , heaven was opened for all      when Jesus rose up      to reign again with His Father 
  This to me is the renewing       and   regeneration of the HOLY SPIRIT       he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,       Now it is no longer a hidden secret    , we have no more excuses       , the open showing and revealing Christ    is   a done deal    , JESUS CHRIST  HIMSELF HOLDS THE DEAD AND  LIVING   ,HE  MAKES ALIVE  TO PRESENT TO THE FATHER   THE LIVING GOD


Tom
God created evil.

"Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

"I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." (Ecclesiastes 1:13)

God gives Satan power to try us (Job 1:6-12,2:1-7), but Satan will eventually lose that power (1 Corinthians 15:24).

"Satan," Hebrew for "Adversary," also known as "the dragon," "the ancient serpent," and "the Slanderer," is head of the forces of evil.

Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew), meaning "Destroyer," is the messenger of the abyss.

Satan was a sinner from the beginning, but here are a few verses relevant to the so called "fall of Satan" that is not in the scriptures.

Ezekiel refers to the king of Tyre not Satan (Ezekiel 28:15). The king of Tyre is a man, and Satan is not a man (Ezekiel 28:2,9).

   The ungenerated   mankind    is  subjected      to the  torment of satan adversarial   spirit in mankind    that eats and devours    one another    in the here and now  ,      the Lord is patiently waiting for them to repent      ,  if they do or not every knee will bow and tongue confess  Jesus Christ face to face   

we whom believe without being face to  face are blessed   in the here and now  by  faith   ,   this wonderful gift of God   ,are we better off than they are  /  in this life   yes , but no one will precede  or go ahead   of  those whom   are already there !!  receiving the blessing  or the correction        either or they  are  already     in Christ as   dead in sin or    dead in Him to be    judged   rightly by HIM  they also will be regenerated  after suffering loss and saved as by fire ,  we have already lost everything to gain Christ    in the here and now  as it is written    ,  HE IS THE HOLDER  AND JUDGE   OF THE DEAD AND LIVING,  NOT SATAN ! Giving Him credit were credit is due !

Tom
Isaiah refers to the King of Babylon in the future day of Israel's restoration not Satan's fall in the past (Isaiah 14:3-20). Then Satan will have been cast out of heaven (Revelation 12:9). The King of Babylon is a man (Isaiah 14:16), and Satan is not a man.

"Lucifer" is used once in the King James Version as a mistranslation of the Hebrew for "howl" (Isaiah 14:12). The same exact Hebrew word is used in (Zechariah 11:2). Variations of the word are in (Isaiah 13:6; 14:31; 15:2,3; 16:7; 23:1,6,14; 52:5; 65:14).

Luke refers to Satan's action in response to the casting out of demons in Christ's name not the so called "fall of Satan" (Luke 10:18).

"From the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (1 John 3:8)

"He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

Satan's most effective deception is the church using corrupt translation of scripture and tradition of man to invalidate the word of God.

"You invalidate the word of God because of your tradition." (Matthew 15:6)

"For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light. It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness -- whose consummation shall be according to their acts." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

The good news is evil will eventually be nullified at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24,28).





  God Himself    declares     that is the destruction of Babylon   whom rides this  scarlet beast  satan in the earth    He is the  one whom confused the languages Tom    in Gen 11   the tower of Babel       that  no one would  rise    in any way except by HIM ! 
    , and they Mystery   of all the ages will be made known to all    and it started in Jerusalem      70ad   Just as Jesus said it would .
   rev10  6and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,

7but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. 8Then the voice which I heard from heaven, I heard again speaking with me, and saying, "Go, take the book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the land."


revelation 20      , I know death was  defeated at the Cross         of Christ and them vials    and bowels  have been poured out and trumpets   blowing   

have been going on ever since      , just look at the world and   we know its  true    !

  the prophets foretold  the events  in the old testament  and we see  with our  eyes    it is the same    today   judgment is and has  been  going on in the earth 

  for a long time     and salvation  through tribulation     and suffering     is as well         

  God is patient   long suffering none should perish  and the warnings are there      and we should all be   alert     and waiting   for Him   

   This whole world was to be  set on Fire when    Jesus  went to the cross [this baptism ]    ,   His  true statement is in Luke 12  49 , the fire sent is for   cleansing and destruction of the world    and fiery trials    to try us   all      ...     


      2Peter 3
3 ·My friends [L Beloved], this is [L now] the second letter I have written you [C the first is probably 1 Peter] to ·help your honest minds remember [L awaken/arouse your sincere understanding/intentions with a reminder].

2 I want you to ·think about [remember; recall] the words the holy prophets spoke in the past, and remember the command our Lord and Savior gave us through your apostles [Jude 17].

3 It is most important for you to understand what will happen in the last days. ·People [L Scoffers] will ·laugh at [scoff at; ridicule] you. They will ·live doing the evil things they want to do [indulge their own desires/lusts; Jude 18]. 4 [L And] They will say, "·Jesus promised to come again. Where is he [L Where is his promised coming]? [L For] Our ·fathers [ancestors] have ·died [L fallen asleep], but ·the world [L all things] continues the way it has been since ·it was made [it began with creation]."

5 But they ·do not want to remember [willfully forget/ignore] what happened long ago. By the word of God heaven ·was made [came to be; Gen. 1:3–20; Ps. 33:6; 148:5; Heb. 11:3], and the earth was made from water [Gen. 1:2; Ps. 24:2] and with water [Gen. 1:6–7, 9; Ps. 33:7; 136:6; Prov. 8:27–29]. 6 ·Then [L Through these; C either the water and the word of God, or the heavens and earth which poured forth their water; Gen. 7:11] the world was flooded and destroyed ·with water [L being deluged with water; Gen. 6—9]. 7 And that same word of God is ·keeping [reserving; holding in store] heaven and earth that we now have in order to be destroyed by fire [Deut. 32:22; Is. 66:15–16; Zeph. 1:18; Mal. 4:1]. They are being kept for the judgment day and the destruction of ·all who are against God [L the ungodly/impious people].




8 But do not forget [ignore; miss] this one thing, ·dear friends [L beloved]: To the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day [C our perception of time is not the same as God's; Ps. 90:4]. 9 The Lord is not ·slow [or late] in doing what he promised—the way some people understand ·slowness [lateness; Hab. 2:3]. But God is being patient with you [Ex. 34:6]. He does not want anyone to ·be lost [perish], but he wants all people to ·change their hearts and lives [L come to repentance].

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief [C with surprise and danger]. The ·skies [heavens] will ·disappear [pass away; Matt. 5:18; 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 16:17; 21:33] with a loud noise. ·Everything in them [L The elements; C either everything in the cosmos or specifically the heavenly bodies] will be ·destroyed [or dissolved] by ·fire [heat; burning], and the earth and ·everything in it [or all the deeds done on it] will be exposed.[a] 11 In that way everything will be ·destroyed [or dissolved]. So what kind of people should you be? You should live holy lives and ·serve God [be godly/pious], 12 as you wait for and ·look forward to [strive for; or hurry; hasten] the coming of the day of God. When that day comes, the ·skies [or heavens] will be ·destroyed [or dissolved] with fire, and ·everything in them [the elements; 3:10] will melt with ·heat [fire; burning]. 13 But God made a promise to us [Is. 65:17; 66:22], and we are waiting for a new heaven and a new earth where ·goodness [righteousness] ·lives [makes its home].

14 [L Therefore] ·Dear friends [L Beloved], ·since [or while] you are waiting for this to happen, ·do your best [make every effort; strive] to be [L found] without ·sin [L spot] and without ·fault [L blemish; C the characteristics of the false teachers in 2:13]. ·Try [Make every effort; Strive] to be at peace with God. 15 ·Remember [Consider; Bear in mind] that ·we are saved because our Lord is patient [L our Lord's patience is our salvation; C his delay in coming allows more to be saved]. Our ·dear [L beloved] brother Paul told you the same thing when he wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes about ·this [L these things] in all his letters. Some things in Paul's letters are hard to understand, and people who are ·ignorant [untaught] and ·weak in faith [unstable] ·explain these things falsely [L twist/distort them]. They also ·falsely explain [L twist; distort] the other Scriptures, ·but they are destroying themselves by doing this [or which will lead to their destruction].

17 [L Therefore] ·Dear friends [L Beloved], since you already ·know [are forewarned] about this, be ·careful [on guard]. Do not let those ·evil [lawless; unprincipled] people lead you away ·by the wrong they do [or by their deception; or into error]. Be ·careful [on guard] so you will not fall from your own ·strong faith [stability; firm position]. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Glory be to him now and ·forever [L to the day of eternity]! ·Amen [So be it].
 
Warning not to go back into the world , but come out of it          ! 
We trust God for our salvation and  we also   have the same hope for all mankind

Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2015, 08:38:12 PM
Paul spoke of being caught up to the third heaven, and Genesis speaks of separating the heavens. There are hundreds of uses of heaven and heavens in the bible. Some can mean air or sky, some clearly mean more. I deduce that the lower heavens are the common functions of nature, air/wind, rain, sky, then the mid-heavens where the prince of the power of the air works along with the mind of man, then the higher levels being the abode of angels and the throne of God in the highest heaven, so that in defining "heaven" in scriptural terms one has to be a bit broader in scope than the "meaning of the word", because the word is applied to multiple levels with a unified theme.

The angels in judes 6 are bound in aidos chains under darkness reserved for the judgement of the day, so the concept of heaven also involves "inner" and "outer". The kingdom of heaven is within. Further in there is purer spirit, further out there is chaos, outer darkness.

I know we love to simplify, but not everything is simple, until our orientation is right. Then perspectives widen and deepen and perception clarifies as God takes us "up" and "in" the renewed mind and the wisdom of God in Christ, where we are "seated in the heavenly realms where abide all the spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus"(Eph)

   :iagree: too.. but I find myself always trying to balance the inner heavenlies and height, in discussion, with the outer and concrete, as I feel strongly that the basic lesson that God is illustrating to the world is - with Him there is Life and Paradise, real and solid beautiful and wondrous paradise.. inner, yes, but also outer.. It has crossed my mind that having a tendency to always want to balance and inject the concrete into the inner space realm topic, "the kingdom is within you" may be a tad obnoxious possibly to some :laughing7:

But it's a strong personal conviction with me, that God's creation is very, very wondrous, and that He has strong purpose for it, beyond these ages of man and a little beyond.. Maybe no one thinks the universe will disappear and only be inner, after the consummation to the all in all.. But it seems like that to me, whereas I believe the Word says the throne of God comes to the earth and He will tabernacle/dwell with mankind upon a gloriously restored and made new planet in an immense and glorious universe.. where the lion will eat straw like the ox, his people will be able to sleep in the forest.. under their own vine and fruit tree.. and the bear will graze with the cow.. after all weapons have been, literally, melted into gardening tools.. What better end to the lesson, than manually melting and reshaping man's weapons of warfare?

Now whereas I believe the inner lion will be tamed, I don't think that is to the exclusion of the outer creature God formed in Eden.. And it makes me uneasy if I think that is the belief and portrayal..

So I most often emphasize the physical.. the playing out in the outward as a whole, because that's where I believe the lesson is most illustrated..

Like most of us here, I'm not comfortable with anything like "this is what Jesus means when He said.." but prefer to look it up in the interlinear myself, to see if it's a case of His using "the" or "your".. etc.. [I'm thinking of `last day` here.. oops, is that a different  thread? :dontknow: Like with the creation of 'hell' - which may very well have been deliberate - but I also think when something isn't understood, we humans do a lot of somersaulting with the Word and whenever we do this, i believe it obscures and confuses His message..] I believe in the inner heights.. and more so as the day approaches(!) but I like to always balance talk of mysteries and such with the concrete outer where the same lesson is being concretely played out.. I'm sure "how" it plays and will play out (or not?) is another topic of many views.. :smile: [notice I didn't use  :eek: / :laughing7: just kidding!]
     :hiya:
"when the son of man returns will He find faith on the earth?' ..."feed my lambs.."

Oh! I almost forgot what I actually came to post!
I think you are right about "olam" - like other topics/perspectives, the ancient Hebrew perspective, I believe, is the most accurate.. So now when I read eonian or aionian, I am thinking olam..
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: thanks!

Satan..

...many are of the opinion that kings of whatever empire, at the time, are types and shadows of the 'god'/"chief" of the world, the original adversary.. (like david was a type and shadow of Jesus)

Ezekiel 28, for instance, says the King of Tyre was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.. I don't think any was perfect in their ways except Jesus.. So here especially is where is viewed the original of the type and shadow

and in Isaiah 14.. how art you fallen from heaven son of the dawn (or morning star? rev ch 1 "stars are angels" of if not, still Rev chapter 12 says the dragon, that old serpent and satan dragged a third of the stars)

...attachments as food for thought :Peace2: :smile:

[attachment deleted by admin]

I agree Marie, and whatever the views of various members, a great thing that comes out of such an in depth and thorough discussion, is that evryone gets to see multiple views- our own various studies and those derived from the studies of others. A seeking student of the word is presented with a range of facts and interpretaions. They can put it through their own sifting and reach the conclusion that makes sense to them. I also see the kingdom as inner and outer.

The whole creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God, and eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God, as do we, awaiting our final and full adoption- the redemption of our bodies- which will be the testimony that our inward transformation is finally complete!

:dsunny: