OWLAM OLAM OLAWM

[rosered]

I think "for an age" and "for an indefinite period of time" are close enough in meaning to me to be pretty much the same thing. It's not forever.

Still, in such a scenario, the idea of someone suffering "for an age" is still pretty broad. My "indefinte time" ranges from a moment(few stripes) to "who know how long", as olam indicates.  "Aionian" is an adjective in Matthew 25- not a noun.

But as I said, I don't want to quibble :o)

I rejoice in the work evryone here is doing to spread the "Victorious Gospel", and for me this is an open discussion- and I have no need or desire to take it further than that as we edify one another- and we all repeat the things we believe as the topics bring them round again :o)

I have changed my views several times based on things I have harvested from the sowing of members on this site.

As we read one anothers words we weigh what we think we kno, always looking for the "test" of "fire in the Day"- and we walk in the truth as best we can. As iron sharpens iron, our fellowship in what we share is priceless to me, and I hope to all who read our words, as they check them out.  :dsunny:

Me too, amen. :iagree:  Can't wait for the day when all truth is known. I think we all will be a little surprised.  :eek:

CHB

Amen      !    Its all for the Lord God    from the Lord God , and We  thank him for    all help as    God  gives the   increase   :HeartThrob:

I know the Lord is dealing with me/us ,,,,  in what you just shared CHB   ,,,  I was remembering   what   my husbands grandfather shared  with my dad and  his son 

   and my husband /grandson    a  long time ago   when they were discussing   ''these things of God ''  and His plane
  and   he said ,     I do not think its going to be as anyone    expects and   there is going to be a lot of surprise     for everyone ''.

  When you just shared that it was like, '' a  witness ''   twice told   to me  ...   
  For me it is the Holy Spirit    affirming     and bringing back to remembrance        what was    spoken     15 years ago       

and it is significant  in meaning    ,  to spread the   Victorious Gospel  even in troublesome times  by   His Spirit

 

[eaglesway]

Back to the original topic, which was the meaning of olam.

As olam relates to aion versus aionian.

Aion is a noun

aionian is an adjective.

Olam is olam(joke) :o)

No, really, it is a wierd word, honestly. It can be either adjective or noun, it is frequently adjective, "the olam God", "olam hills", etc.

But it can be a noun,"he shall be your slave olam". In 438 uses in the OT it seems to be pretty evenly divided.

This is the difference between aion and aionian, but they are two words, where as olam is one, so in really doing the definition accurately that distinction has to be made. aion and aionian are both from olam.

As I see it, in "aionian zoe", Jesus is speaking of a quality of experience, not a duration of life. "aionian" is an adjective there. Its definition may include duration, but it is certainly not predominantly about duration. It is primarily about living in the power of the resurrection, living in the presence of God, living in perfect union through the Spirit. Its enduring quality is provided as a side effect to ITS VERY NATURE.

aionian kolassis and aionian pyr(imo) are the same thing. A type of experience in "the other world", which brings up another interesting thing about olam, which is also used to reference the hidden world on the other side of the veil of mortal life.

IMO, This is the reason why aions was translated "worlds" in Hebrews 1, and it is a further clue that the translators of the septuagint went from olam to aion/aionian - using aion to communicate the noun sense of olam and aionian to communicate the adjective sense.

To this very day "olam ha-ba" means, "the world to come" in Jewish belief. "olam ha-zeh" means "this world". For me this makes it clear that since olam is defined in connection with its subject, so is aionian, and so, Matthew 25:46 may mean no more than,

"the life of the world to come"(aionian zoe) and "the correction of the world to come"(aionian kolassis) which is "the fire of the world to come"(aionian pyr).

In which case Jesus would not really be communicating about duration at all in using aionian in those verses. :o)

[sheila]

...this is a lot closer to my thoughts about it.  look at the new earth/new heaven..refined...no more curse/death,surely an understanding

  refined by His corrective fire[Mind of Christ]..the old earth that passed away/cursed[under law covenant] that which is old is

passing away[the old earth will wear out like a garment/become obsolete]

[Tom]

Well, that's one way to look at it, but maybe that "world to come" is the same world in a future time in a different form or appearance that is so radically changed that it's perceived to be another "olam" or "aion" whether you want to think of it as time or space or both. I think the use of the word "world" instead of "eon" is more figurative than literal because I think it will be the same world in a different time. We are said to be new creations which I think is in a figurative sense now but will be in a literal sense when we're actually changed (1 Corinthians 15:52). A "new creation" seems to say something completely different, but something about us will probably still be the same or we wouldn't still be who we were. I'm thinking about when Christ was transformed on the mountain (Matthew 17:1-9). He was probably seen more like he actually is than how they usually perceived him in the flesh, which may be similar to how we'll appear when we're changed, but I think something about us will be unique and recognizable. Something strange I experienced when I was in the light was a sense of just knowing without having to be told. Information was intuitive. No spoken language was necessary. I think we may all experience that in the future, and all the different languages created at Babel will be unnecessary because God will be all in all. So there will be instant communication between us, but something about us will be recognizable even though we will be radically changed.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheJudgmentOfTheNations.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[rosered]

 
Wow Great study John
  I can see this plainly in Blessed is he whom is in the first resurrection for the second death has no power   

  no harm  Rev 9    , they had   the hair   of women      not  to  teach     

  no man can shake you in the sense   of this the fear is cast out by perfect /'' Love Christ in you'' and sharing this glory of God while still being a mortal     , that faith  giving the grace     and  power of the Holy Spirit       the  rasiing the dead   , gifts of healing and restoring  , the blind and  lame     etc ... Be it ,  on earth as it is in heaven  :HeartThrob:

  With Christ ruling and reigning       over the Body  which is CHRIST     , discerning the spirits 
faith hope and love        these remain 

  shake   in heaven once  more   Hebrews 12 ...25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." 27This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain....

   these three remain 1Corinth   3   ...12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, remain  these three; but the greatest of these is love.
  who can separate us from the love of God   Romans 8
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ?

Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."...

  the shaken out of heaven our hearts / minds    is satan       Jesus said I saw satan fall   like lightning   
Luke 10

  the power from on HIGH !!  HOLY SPIRIT   THE FATHER & SON     17The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19"Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you....   

rev   9   the locust   eaters and destroyers of the earth , kings of the earth        ,   like scorpions  '' the sting'' was in their tails/lies     to torment  for 5 months 


  will say this   Revelation is the  key to  unlock   the WORD OF GOD BY  JESUS CHRIST OPENING THE SEALS OF THE BOOK    . THE LAMB OF GOD    having this BLOOD  /LIFE   over   the doorpost [ in our mouth]     


That the Light inside    by faith , this gift of God [Christ in you the hope of glory and the LOVE    that overcomes the world   


   Is the same  7 trumpets to   tear down by faith'' in Christ anointing''     the walls of Jericho /  city of the  moon       back in the time of Joshua       

Faith believing in obedience  to God   is  , was and will be    what Got/gets   things  done  by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT & WORD    within your walls of salvation   
anointing   is to smear    with   oil  and the fire of Gods consuming       HOLY SPIRIT     anything that is not of God      will not remain

   What remains is the faith ,  hope and love     increase of Gods    HOLY  WORD BY HIS SPIRIT OF TRUTH


judgment begins in the house of God  you are that house /temple




1 Corthin 3


Brothers and sisters, in the past I could not talk to you as I talk to ·spiritual people [or people who have the Spirit]. I had to talk to you as I would to ·people without the Spirit [unspiritual/carnal/fleshly people]—·babies [infants] in Christ.



2 ·The teaching I gave you was like milk [L I gave you milk to drink], not solid food, because you were not yet able to take solid food [C the comparison is between basic and advanced teaching]. And even now you are not ready.


3 You are still ·not spiritual [carnal; fleshly; living by your sinful nature], because there is ·jealousy [envy] and ·quarreling [conflict; rivalry] among you, and this shows that you are ·not spiritual [carnal; fleshly; living by your sinful nature]. You are ·acting [living; L walking] ·like people of the world [or like ordinary/unsaved people; or on a merely human level; L according to man].


4 One of you says, "I belong to Paul," and another says, "I belong to Apollos." When you say things like this, ·you are [L are you not...?] ·acting like people of the world [or living on a merely human level; L people; human beings].

5 ·Is Apollos important? No! [L What, then, is Apollos?] ·Is Paul important? No! [L And what is Paul?] We are only servants of God who helped you believe.

Each one of us did the work the Lord gave us to do.


6 I planted the seed, and Apollos watered it.


But God is the One who made it grow. 7 So the one who plants is not ·important [L anything], and the one who waters is not ·important [L anything], but only God, who makes things grow.


8 The one who plants and the one who waters ·have the same purpose [or are equal; L are one], and each will ·be rewarded [receive wages] for his own work.


9 We are ·God's workers, working together [coworkers belonging to God; coworkers in God's service]; you are God's ·farm [field], God's building.

10 ·Using [or Because of] the ·gift [grace] God gave me,

I laid the foundation of that building like an ·expert [skilled; wise] builder. Others are building on that foundation, but ·all people [L each one] should be careful how they build on it. 11 The foundation that has already been laid is Jesus Christ, and no one can lay down any other foundation.


12 But if ·people [anyone; someone] build on that foundation, using gold, silver, ·jewels [precious stones], wood, ·grass [or hay], or straw,


13 their work will be ·clearly seen [or shown for what it is], because the ·day of judgment [L day] will make it ·visible [clear; obvious]. That day will ·appear [or reveal it; expose it] with fire, and the fire will test everyone's work to show what sort of work it was.


14 If the ·building that has been put on the foundation [L work] still stands, the builder will get ·a reward [or wages].


15 But if the ·building [L work] is burned up, the builder will ·suffer loss [or be fined; or be punished]. The builder will be saved, but it will be as one who escaped ·from a fire [L through fire].

16 Don't ·you [you all; C the verb is plural] know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you [C just as God's presence filled the tabernacle; Ex. 40:34–38]? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person, because God's temple is holy ·and you are that temple [or and you are holy; L which is what you are].

18 Do not ·fool [deceive] yourselves. If you think you are wise in this ·world [age], you should become a fool so that you can become truly wise, 19 because the wisdom of this world is ·foolishness [folly] with God. [L For] It is written in the Scriptures, "He catches those who are wise in their own ·clever traps [craftiness; cunning; Job 5:13]." 20 ·It is also written in the Scriptures [L And again],


"The Lord knows ·what wise people think [L the thoughts/reasoning/machinations of the wise]. He knows their thoughts are ·worthless [pointless; useless; futile; Ps. 94:11]." 21 So you should not ·brag [boast] about ·human leaders [L people]. All things belong to you: 22 Paul, Apollos, and ·Peter [L Cephas; C Peter's name in Aramaic; see 1:12]; the world, life, death, the present, and the future—all these belong to you. 23 And you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.

I noticed  recently    the urgency   in the way the New testament was written as to being a now    type of writing       with the   flair    of  zeal  , as to say , these things  will shortly come to pass     or   He comes quickly    etc...

  That was a long time ago ,  when we consider   time as an element , being elemental  and primary or basic    ,   that is burned up   , it has been a stumbling block    for many  including myself     for a long long time .


  I only see     3     ages /stages       spoken about      ,  the  first being     without law     and the  other   two ages  in the sense of those  under law and those under grace

  making  3     ages ,   3 days     

  I believe in the simplicity   in Christ being that    1,   when there was no law there was no sin ....
 
and when the law came   2 ,  sin   was exposed and in everyones  weakness     death ruled

  and then the grace of God though Jesus Christ     , where sin was made an open show nailing those   ordinances to His  cross  3 ,   God made this a way of escape    from death   by the LIFE IN CHRIST    till GOD BE ALL IN ALL   


This 3rd Day    is the urgency that   the new testament speaks    of     overcoming the world /death sentance           

1john 4 ...3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God;

this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.


4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; [ plural antichrist spirits ]


because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.

Why ? ,because we hear Him , by faith    ,  faith comes by hearing      what the Spirit is saying ,  Jesus rejoiced when Peter said you are the Christ the Son of the Living God  , flesh and blood did not reveal    this to you but my FATHER  [GIFT OF GRACE  INCREASE ]  BY HOLY SPIRIT   WITNESS

THE FATHER AND JESUS   were together   before the world was     and was with Him when  He walked the earth as a man   as flesh and blood and      when the renewing of the HOLY SPIRIT COME       the new ones would be birthed and   come in the same manner    by ONE OF A KIND

This hope of glory would be the Christ in you the very same seed      /Word of God  = CHRIST  anointing  given the increase   of God     from faith , hope and LOVE  , THE LOVE BEING THE  FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY         


COL 2
Alive in Christ
...8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.



9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;...


10 and you have ·a full and true life in Christ [L been filled in him], who is ·ruler [L head] over every ruler and ·power [authority].

11 In Christ you were also circumcised, but not with a circumcision done by hands [Rom. 2:28; Phil. 3:3]. It was ·a circumcision done by Christ [L the circumcision of Christ], which ·freed you from [put off; cut away] ·the power of your sinful self [your sinful nature; L the body of flesh; C just as OT circumcision cut off the physical flesh, so Christ's circumcision "cuts off" the "flesh"—the power of our sinful self].


12 When you were baptized, you were buried with Christ, and you were raised up with him through your faith in the ·power [working; active agency] of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 When you were ·spiritually dead [L dead] ·because of [or in] your sins and ·because you were not free from the power [L in the uncircumcision] of your ·sinful self [sinful nature; flesh], God made you alive with Christ, and he forgave all our ·sins [transgressions].


14 He ·canceled [wiped out; erased] the ·record [certificate] of debt, ·which listed all the rules we failed to follow [L with its decrees that were against us; C the record of sins revealed through the OT law; Eph. 2:15]. He ·took it away [set it aside; destroyed it] and nailed it to the cross. 15 ·God [or Christ; L He] ·stripped the spiritual rulers and powers of their authority [L disarmed/despoiled the rulers and authorities]. With the cross, he won the victory and ·showed the world that they were powerless [publicly shamed them; made a public spectacle of them; C like a triumphant general displaying his captives in a victory parade].


Our cross it seems is to not let the world   have any power   over you , but to be led    by the CHRIST /HOLY SPIRIT   WITNESS   within you  ALIVE AND WELL


and giving  the glory to the FATHER       

Everything    come out of God  and  is manifested    , made known and everything will go back into God  , the consuming Fire   & HOLY SPIRIT of LOVE ,  purified  as it was  , is and will be     known and understood by revelation   of Jesus Christ ..


:HeartThrob:

by the increase   of God Himself   

[eaglesway]

Well, that's one way to look at it, but maybe that "world to come" is the same world in a future time in a different form or appearance that is so radically changed that it's perceived to be another "olam" or "aion" whether you want to think of it as time or space or both. I think the use of the word "world" instead of "eon" is more figurative than literal because I think it will be the same world in a different time. We are said to be new creations which I think is in a figurative sense now but will be in a literal sense when we're actually changed (1 Corinthians 15:52). A "new creation" seems to say something completely different, but something about us will probably still be the same or we wouldn't still be who we were. I'm thinking about when Christ was transformed on the mountain (Matthew 17:1-9). He was probably seen more like he actually is than how they usually perceived him in the flesh, which may be similar to how we'll appear when we're changed, but I think something about us will be unique and recognizable. Something strange I experienced when I was in the light was a sense of just knowing without having to be told. Information was intuitive. No spoken language was necessary. I think we may all experience that in the future, and all the different languages created at Babel will be unnecessary because God will be all in all. So there will be instant communication between us, but something about us will be recognizable even though we will be radically changed.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheJudgmentOfTheNations.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I see what you are saying and in a I agree, altho I see "world" as olam not meaning "earth". it is more akin to a combination of aion and kosmos, denoting both a change in "age" and the "world" of that specific age- and the very elements, or nature of that world/age. (Which you express beautifully in the first line of your post)

2 Pet 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Speaking specifically of aion being translated "world" as evidience of the "olam" connection, I think Jesus(in Mt 25) may have been speaking in the sense of olam(translated "aionian"). Peter uses "kosmos", not "gaia"(earth) to speak of the destruction of the "world that was", in order to create a new "world" through Noah, to restore righteousness to the kosmos. This is in keeping, I think, with Peter's prophesy about this "world" being destroyed by fire "in which the "elements"(stoicheon, elementary principles) would melt away with "fervent heat"to make way for a "new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells" (a tabernacle of righteousness). Earth will no longer contain a "world of the ungodly", "olam ha-ba" will be a world of harmony and light in Messiah(the word of the Lord will "cover the earth" as will the "glory of the Lord", which is love and light- righteousness)

This, imo, is what Jesus is speaking of in Matt 25 when He uses "aionian pyr"(olam fire) and "aionian kolassis" (olam correction) which is consistent with 1 Cor 3 "every persons works will be tested by fire for the Day shall reveal it".

The Day of the Lord is a fire that consumes all darkness, transforming the "world" from futility/chaos(without form and void) into a tabernacle of righteousness(conformed/transformed into the image of Messiah) through the ages.

I think the continuous usage of "the Day of the Lord" throughout the prophets and into the new covenant is a testimony not to a "date", but rather a continuous process of "Let there be light"- recreation, "Behold, I make all things new", from the Alpha(beginning) to the Omega(all in all) of "an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ". Meaning that, the Day is growing from dawn to full noon over all time, punctuated by changes in administrative ages, of which the following:

Creation; the flood; the first Advent; the second advent; the end of the millenial kingdom and beginning of that next age of the purification of the wicked- are the punctuation marks and "worlds" of proceeding ages that make up one long continuous "Day" as the revelation of Jesus Christ renews the "world" of men and angels(heavens and earth) until the "restoration of all things" is complete- the final "olam/aion". :o)

I agree with what you said about the mount of transfiguration and Babel, "knowing as we are known" and the sense of what we are now being "swallowed up" (covered over, transformed and revivified) by "new life" and "new creation". Exciting stuff we see through aglass darkly! :o)

IMO this truth about "olam" as the Day of the Lord is the place where "fullfilled" perspective and "historical" perspective meet together as the two sides of one beautiful, glorious coin of truth- not about dates, but punctuated by them in the process of a prophetically fulfilled(in Christ) revelation playing itself out through history(world/ages) - the sixth foundation of Hebrew 6:1-2, which is "eternal judgment"(aionian kritas), Gods reason for the ages

[Seth]

To me, if it is addressing the counterarguments that we get from ET or EDers, if they are convincing seekers that if judgment is temporary then life is temporary, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:53:

"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." and 2 Timothy 1:10 "Christ has brought both life and immortality to light through the gospel."

Regardless of how Tom, John, me and others might differ on our view of eonian life, we can probably all agree that the Bible specifically and explicitly calls out immortality as a benefit and promise of the Gospel. ET objection addressed. Immortals cannot die.

In my experience this tends to drain the fearmongering out of the conversation so seekers can rely on the truth that deathlessness is a promise of the Gospel that they can depend on, then they can study and interpret what they think eonian life is, without having that threat stinking up the conversation.

[rosered]

 

  Thanks bros !! 

  I like it to this also ,   we  either or die in our sins or die in Christ    when we literally die  of being human    , having anion life is the Christ life   
but those who do not know God  , the LIGHT of   the gospel    have no sin /error 

sins imputed against them    romans 4 7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,...


where there is no  Law   there is no sin  , many die in this manner , its those whom  believe they are keeping all the law and  in this manner are in error , because you say you see your sin remains    ......  every jot and tittle    if you broke one  you broke them all   
making us all debtors     

Romans 5    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Its the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that brings death through this Law

   the Law of liberty   James 2 A Warning against Favoritism
...11For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
James 1:25, "But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing."  "law of faith" in Romans 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

and we know that faith come from God the FATHER      flesh and blood cannot ever reveal       JESUS CHRIST      the Son of God  lamb of God the gift of Life     

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.John 8 ;36  free from the law of sin and death     

Love fulfills the law
Romans 13:8-10


8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


It is His power in us that gives us the ability to please God  though His own Spirit        no flesh pleases God   

  (Galatians 5:13–16).Life by the Spirit
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free.(A) But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a];(B) rather, serve one another(C) humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.



  If you know that mercy was shown by the Lord   to you , it is only right to show mercy to   those whom    are  suffering in sin sickness and death the very  same way the Lord saved you out of  sin and death      , pray and believe God can save       , He  did this  for  all  of us    not the few so many of the eternal   tormentors  and   eternal damnation  believers   speak    &      force upon   .     Do they really know God ?   

  This knowledge was in part ,tree of    knowledge   of   good/  light  and evil/darkness     and judgment    in both    doing good and doing evil         it is   the perfect that comes    '' Jesus Christ ''  that   fulfills the     complete         Law    in perfect Love      :icon_flower:   

[marie glen]

  Amen Rose, "This is the decree.. my begotten Son" (ps 2) "who alone has immortality" (1 Tim 6:16).. "He has included all under sin" .."the wages" (payment,result) "of sin is death" "The day comes when the dead will hear my voice, and will awaken, some to the resurrection of life and some to the resurrection of judgment" (also means "decision" the resurrection of decision)..

Olam as what is at or beyond the horizon ..a very distant time. A common phrase "l'olam va'ed" usually translated "forever and ever" but a much closer translation would be "to the distant horizon and again" meaning pretty much, "a very distant time and even further" ..a very ancient or future time..

I've been studying the ancient feasts of Israel as set up by our almighty Father and how they are a type and shadow.. Every year Israel had a judgment day, a day when they afflicted their souls, and their sins were pardoned, and anyone who did not afflict their soul on that day would be cut off.. (from the people).. the spring Holy Days, it's easy to see, were a type and shadow of Jesus' first advent.. seeing as He is the Passover Lamb, the Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits..

After His return with the mighty blast of "Trumpets" (the six of culmination/Revelation) and the last trump.. comes ten days/1000 years, followed by "Day of Atonement", then 5 days/500 years (it would seem) later "Tabernacles" when "all things are made new" and "the Father will now Tabernacle with man". (Rev ch 20)

"While we were yet sinners He died for us" - for us all.. We know many verses say "all" so we know "all" will repent and be reconciled.. "Unless you repent, ye shall all likewise perish"..

"But thanks be to God who makes us to be more than conquerors" over the flesh, our own lower, imperfect nature, which "cannot please God".
          :dsunny: :cloud9:

[eaglesway]

To me, if it is addressing the counterarguments that we get from ET or EDers, if they are convincing seekers that if judgment is temporary then life is temporary, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:53:

"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." and 2 Timothy 1:10 "Christ has brought both life and immortality to light through the gospel."

Regardless of how Tom, John, me and others might differ on our view of eonian life, we can probably all agree that the Bible specifically and explicitly calls out immortality as a benefit and promise of the Gospel. ET objection addressed. Immortals cannot die.

In my experience this tends to drain the fearmongering out of the conversation so seekers can rely on the truth that deathlessness is a promise of the Gospel that they can depend on, then they can study and interpret what they think eonian life is, without having that threat stinking up the conversation.

I agree with that, but ETrs and EDrs often just reverse the argument, agreeing with immortality, but only for those who "believe". Explaining the meaning of olam, and showing how it is used in the OT, then proving that aion/aionian is derivative of olam, is(imo) a strong evidence that life can last forever(aionian/olam life) and correction until one is corrected(aionian/olam kolassis)- all without any redefining of biblical concepts.

[rosered]

 


  Thanks Marie ,,    it is about Jesus Christ  ,,    this Name is the  '' anointed  name ''above all  names   by the Spirit of truth ''GOD''  ..     the  Son of God  and the Son of Man

and the  center between two worlds   .



 
   For me the word olam     has always been defined in ECC  3   as to what it describes   

  and it appears to be  the world   as we know it   in our youth ,without  knowing God   
  Gods  plan is ''hidden''    as the wisdom of the world does not know God

Olam is a Hebrew word which means "World" or "Hidden"


http://www.abarim-publications.com/Dictionary/ay/ay-l-mfin.html#.VUYvp_lViko


Ecclesiastes 3 Expanded Bible (EXB)

There Is a Time for Everything
3 There is a ·time [season] for everything,
    and ·everything [every activity] ·on earth [L under heaven] has its ·special season [time].
2 There is a time to be born
    and a time to die.
There is a time to plant
    and a time to ·pull up plants [uproot what has been planted].
3 There is a time to kill
    and a time to heal.
There is a time to ·destroy [tear down]
    and a time to build.
4 There is a time to cry
    and a time to laugh.
There is a time to ·be sad [mourn]
    and a time to dance.
5 There is a time to throw away stones
    and a time to gather them.
There is a time to ·hug [embrace]
    and a time ·not to hug [to refrain from embracing].
6 There is a time to ·look for something [seek]
    and a time to ·stop looking for it [L give up as lost; or lose].
There is a time to keep things
    and a time to throw things away.
7 There is a time to tear apart
    and a time to sew together.
There is a time to be silent
    and a time to speak.
8 There is a time to love
    and a time to hate.
There is a time for war
    and a time for peace.
God Controls His World
9 ·Do [L What do] people really ·gain anything [profit] from their ·work [toil; 1:3]?

10 I saw the ·hard work [task] God has given people to ·do [keep them occupied; 1:13].


11 God has ·given them a desire to know the future [L placed eternity/an awareness of time/or ignorance in their hearts]. He ·does everything just right and on time [L makes everything appropriate/beautiful in its time], but people can never ·completely understand what he is doing [L discover/find the work that God does from beginning to end; C humans cannot discern the "right time"].


12 So I ·realize [know] that ·the best thing [L there is nothing better] for them is to be happy and enjoy themselves as long as they live. 13 God wants all people to eat and drink and be happy in their ·work [toil], which are gifts from God [2:24–26; 3:22; 5:18–20; 8:15; 9:7–10; C the little pleasures are distractions from the meaningless world].

14 I know that everything God does will continue forever. People cannot add anything to what God has done, and they cannot take anything away from it. God does it this way to make people ·respect [or be afraid of; 5:7; 7:18; 8:12, 13] him.

15 What happens now has happened in the past,
    and what will happen in the future has happened before.
God makes the same things happen again and again.
Unfairness on Earth
16 I also saw this ·here on earth [L under the sun; 1:3]:
·Where there should have been justice [L The place of judgment], there was evil;
    ·where there should have been right [L the place of righteousness; C the courtroom], there was evil.
17 I said ·to myself [L in my heart],
·God has planned [L There is] a time for every ·thing [activity] and every action,
so he will judge both ·good people and bad [the righteous and the evil/wicked].
18 I ·decided [L said in my heart concerning the human race] that God ·leaves it the way it is to test people and [L tests them] to show them they are just like animals.


19 The ·same thing happens to animals and to people [L fate of people and the fate of animals are the same/one fate]; they both have the same breath, so they both die. People ·are no better off than [have no advantage over] the animals, because everything is useless [1:2].


20 ·Both end up the same way [All go to the same place]; both came from dust and both will go back to dust.

21 Who ·can be sure [knows] that the human spirit goes up above and that the spirit of an animal goes down into the ground?


22 So I saw that ·the best thing people can do is [L there is nothing better for people than] to ·enjoy [rejoice in] their work, because that is ·all they have [L their reward; 2:24–26; 3:12–14; 5:18–20; 8:15; 9:7–10; C the little pleasures are distractions from the meaningless world]. ·No one can help another person [L Who can bring them to...?] see what will happen in the future.

[Seth]

To me, if it is addressing the counterarguments that we get from ET or EDers, if they are convincing seekers that if judgment is temporary then life is temporary, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:53:

"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." and 2 Timothy 1:10 "Christ has brought both life and immortality to light through the gospel."

Regardless of how Tom, John, me and others might differ on our view of eonian life, we can probably all agree that the Bible specifically and explicitly calls out immortality as a benefit and promise of the Gospel. ET objection addressed. Immortals cannot die.

In my experience this tends to drain the fearmongering out of the conversation so seekers can rely on the truth that deathlessness is a promise of the Gospel that they can depend on, then they can study and interpret what they think eonian life is, without having that threat stinking up the conversation.

I agree with that, but ETrs and EDrs often just reverse the argument, agreeing with immortality, but only for those who "believe". Explaining the meaning of olam, and showing how it is used in the OT, then proving that aion/aionian is derivative of olam, is(imo) a strong evidence that life can last forever(aionian/olam life) and correction until one is corrected(aionian/olam kolassis)- all without any redefining of biblical concepts.

If they tell me that it's only for those who believe then I show them the rest of the scriptures proving that all shall be saved. I use the immortality scriptures to show that just because eonian punishment doesn't last forever doesn't mean that there is no immortality.

The Bible shows that immortality is promised. Even if eonian life was recieving a peanut butter sandwich, immortality is still in the Gospel. The point is to show that UR does not threaten immortality promised to believers which is a stumbling block for many.

[Seth]

In other words, how is "immortality" not eternal life in and of itself? I could prove immortality is for believers even if the phrase aionios zoe never appeared in the Bible. Whether it's ONLY for believers is where allllll the other scriptures come into play. Seeking ET believers are wondering where UR can support immortality for believers at all. It can.

As an ETer, I would not have been convinced if someone told me eonian life CAN last forever. I would have wanted to know if it DOES. I would have been uncomfortable with the "indefinite" aspect of it and would have wanted a more solid assurance that it would be forever life.

I never remember my preachers ever using the word "immortality" even though it's in the Bible. I didn't start seeing the term in a Biblical context until researching UR.

[eaglesway]

There are many arguments proving UR. It isnt really that obscure, it is just veiled by broken systems of theology. However, Matthew 25 is a problem for many folks. I find that understanding "olam" is one of several wonderful ways of demonstrating the truth in that context. I was not attempting to make it like some "cure all" or "the most important thing" either, lol

But after all, the thread OP was about the meaning of "olam", and it would be just as big an error to undervalue the importance of understanding the relationship between "olam" and "aion/aionian". Olam "only" occurs 438 times in the OT- it is an important word in the UR paradigm- just as important as understanding aion, sheol, gehenna, pas or any of the other words that must be properly translated in order to fully understand the truth of the restoration of all things. :o)

It is clear that "aionian zoe" is immortality. Therefore, whenever someone "believes" they begin to experience aionian zoe. So in 1 Cor 15, we see that eventually all will receive aionian zoe- each in his own order. So all will eventually be immortal. In Phil 2 :9-11 we see that eventually all will believe. How can the eternal God be all in all and death be abolished unless all become immortal at some point.

As in Adam all died so also in Christ sahall al be made alive, but each in his own order. That order will be fulfilled though the completion of the ages, "an administration suitable to the fulness of times".

Different aspects of the truth make the most initial impact on different people, but every one of these aspects are weapons in the arsenal of a warrior of truth.

"Our weapons are not carnal, but mighty through God for the pulling down of every stronghold and fortress, that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God"

[Seth]

Well, I respect your opinion, but it's not clear to me that aionios zoe is immortality. I think it's clear to me that it's the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And I disagree that olam means endless, or infinite. I think it means to the visible horizon, and that as Marie said l'olam va'ed means to the horizon and beyond. I don't believe that such a viewpoint puts the promise of immortality at risk in any way. Just my opinion.

[eaglesway]

I never said olam means eternal, infinite

I have repeatedly said it is defined in union with the subject it is attached to, sometimes meaning eternal(when attached to God), sometimes defining a brief period of years(a slaves indenture), sometimes meaning the distant past, sometimes the distant future, sometimes meaning world/age. Indefinite futurity or indefintie antiquity are classic definitions in Thayer, Briggs-Driver and others.

But someone would have to show me anywhere that olam means "visible". It refers to the horizon in its etymology, yes- but all resources I have read say it is the horizon and beyond."Beyond view" is a true definition of olam.  A cursory examination of the 438 usages of olam in the OT bears that out, just from context, imo.

Also, I think I could at least say with confidence that immortality is a major element of aionian zoe- always accompanying it, at the very least :o)

[Tom]

Well, I'm just now getting a chance to check out the thread today guys, and I'm beginning to wonder if I'm experiencing an eternal virus because it's starting to seem like it might last forever. I still think immortality and eonian life are two different things even though I think believers will begin to experience immortality during eonian life in the next couple of eons, but that's according to how I mostly see eonian life as what we're going to have in the future while unbelievers don't even though they will receive immortality at the end of eonian life. I know there's some variation of interpretation of eonian life, but it seems like only believers are promised it in scripture. I realize according to an alternative interpretation that believers are experiencing it now while unbelievers aren't, but I have a more literal interpretation. I don't think believers who have died experienced eonian life literally or immortality before they died, but I think they will receive both along with any believers who are alive when we're all snatched away and Christ meets us in the air. Then I think that immortality will continue from then on beyond the end of the eons which will be the end of the experience of eonian life. I think the thing about "olam" and "aion" is that they both indicate an indefinite finite period of time even though the end is not in view. I think the endless ages thing comes from pagan philosophy, but scripture indicates that there will be an end to the eons. I think some folks might get a little worried about what's going to be happening after that, but I just trust God because I think it's going to be amazing for everybody to be filled with the love of God without any evil or death messing with us.

[Seth]

I never said olam means eternal, infinite

I have repeatedly said it is defined in union with the subject it is attached to, sometimes meaning eternal(when attached to God), sometimes defining a brief period of years(a slaves indenture), sometimes meaning the distant past, sometimes the distant future, sometimes meaning world/age.

But never meaning infinite life. That's what would have bothered me as an ETer. You'd have to make the assumption that olam is attached to immortal life in order for it to mean eternal. But the Bible doesn't say "olam immortal life." To me it would have  sounded like you want it to mean eternal when attached to life but temporary when attached to punishment all based on how you interpret scripture. Nothing in "olam" inherently means "eternal." It's all based on how you interpret.

That would be a hard pill to swallow as someone who had once believed it always meant eternal apart from the need to interpret what it's attached to and now I have this element of uncertainty which actually is inherent in the word olam.

Indefinite futurity or indefintie antiquity are classic definitions in Thayer, Briggs-Driver and others.

Right. Indefinite life. If it becomes infinite, then it becomes defined. Indefinite means you don't know.

But someone would have to show me anywhere that olam means "visible".

I didn't say it meant visible.

[marie glen]

Well, I'm just now getting a chance to check out the thread today guys, and I'm beginning to wonder if I'm experiencing an eternal virus because it's starting to seem like it might last forever. I still think immortality and eonian life are two different things even though I think believers will begin to experience immortality during eonian life in the next couple of eons, but that's according to how I mostly see eonian life as what we're going to have in the future while unbelievers don't even though they will receive immortality at the end of eonian life. I know there's some variation of interpretation of eonian life, but it seems like only believers are promised it in scripture. I realize according to an alternative interpretation that believers are experiencing it now while unbelievers aren't, but I have a more literal interpretation. I don't think believers who have died experienced eonian life literally or immortality before they died, but I think they will receive both along with any believers who are alive when we're all snatched away and Christ meets us in the air. Then I think that immortality will continue from then on beyond the end of the eons which will be the end of the experience of eonian life. I think the thing about "olam" and "aion" is that they both indicate an indefinite finite period of time even though the end is not in view. I think the endless ages thing comes from pagan philosophy, but scripture indicates that there will be an end to the eons. I think some folks might get a little worried about what's going to be happening after that, but I just trust God because I think it's going to be amazing for everybody to be filled with the love of God without any evil or death messing with us.

This is an interesting thread, and I pretty much agree with this (hope your virus clears up Tom!) I think "putting on immortality" at Jesus' return is what is meant when He said those who believe "will never die"..

Where I differ with mainstream thought and doctrine is with the idea of humans having natural inherent immortality, which of course, is what requires a `hell` or `realm of the dead` as opposed to the grave, which I believe is what sheol always was.. .."King of kings and Lord of Lords, who only has immortality" 1 Tim 6:16..

age-during or age-lasting life is what I think of as life or the HS we have during this age.. (I may be off on that view, not sure:) And survivors of this system of things when it goes through armageddon and all, I think the life span of those survivors who "believe" will greatly increase into "age-during" (or olam?), which I think Isaiah 65:20 is alluding to (?)
"Never again will there be in it
    an infant who lives but a few days,
    or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
    will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
    will be considered accursed." (NIV)

And then at the "all in all" event when the Son hands over the Kingdom to the Father and all things are made new and the throne of God and the New Jerusalem come to the Earth made new, and God the Father will Himself "Tabernacle" with mankind upon Earth of paradise restored, and all things have been subdued. Death, etc having been thrown into the LOF. To me, the absolute worst case scenario is age-during LOF (for any extremely hard nosed cases) as I believe the Day(age?) of Judgment (great review) will ultimately be a great day of atonement+reconciliation, modeled after Israel's ancient autumn Feast Day of Atonement which was an annual day of individual and collective repentance/afflicting of ones soul, and forgiveness and pardoning of their sins through the ancient system of temple sacrifices; a type and shadow, of course, of Jesus, our Passover Lamb.
    :2c: :smile:

[eaglesway]

I never said olam means eternal, infinite

I have repeatedly said it is defined in union with the subject it is attached to, sometimes meaning eternal(when attached to God), sometimes defining a brief period of years(a slaves indenture), sometimes meaning the distant past, sometimes the distant future, sometimes meaning world/age.

But never meaning infinite life. That's what would have bothered me as an ETer. You'd have to make the assumption that olam is attached to immortal life in order for it to mean eternal. But the Bible doesn't say "olam immortal life." To me it would have  sounded like you want it to mean eternal when attached to life but temporary when attached to punishment all based on how you interpret scripture. Nothing in "olam" inherently means "eternal." It's all based on how you interpret.

That would be a hard pill to swallow as someone who had once believed it always meant eternal apart from the need to interpret what it's attached to and now I have this element of uncertainty which actually is inherent in the word olam.

Indefinite futurity or indefintie antiquity are classic definitions in Thayer, Briggs-Driver and others.

Right. Indefinite life. If it becomes infinite, then it becomes defined. Indefinite means you don't know.

But someone would have to show me anywhere that olam means "visible".

I didn't say it meant visible.

Well LOL I hate to throw a monkey wrench in my own works, but sometimes olam is infinite life....(imo of course) Again, I have to say this is based on the usage in the OT. If olam is joined to God, it can mean (olam God) eternal- assuming infinite and eternal are the same.

I have a few question to ask to try to figure out what you mean. When God is "all in all" is that aionian life? immortality? eternal? everlasting?

Is there an eternal state? and if so, what is it called in scripture?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life(aionian zoe).

"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. (immortality- im-not mortalis-dying)

These two verses seem to me to be saying the same thing. aionian zoe endures forever because it is "not dying"- immortal, is never dying.

This is the reason why I believe aionian zoe and immortality, if not the same thing, are aspects of the same thing inextricably interwoven together, in Christ, in the new creation.

Maybe for some the fear is that if we allow "aionian" to mean forever in regards to life- we must allow it to mean forever in regards to kolassis. Viewing "aionian" as "olam" removes that fear correctly. olam and aionian are adjectives conditional upon the subject they describe.

[Seth]

Well LOL I hate to throw a monkey wrench in my own works, but sometimes olam is infinite life....(imo of course) Again, I have to say this is based on the usage in the OT. If olam is joined to God, it can mean (olam God) eternal- assuming infinite and eternal are the same.

As I understand it, olam means an indefinite (unknown) amount of time. It doesn't mean indefinite until such a time as I say it means definitely infinite and not less. That fudges the basic meaning of OLAM in my opinion.

I have a few question to ask to try to figure out what you mean. When God is "all in all" is that aionian life? immortality? eternal? everlasting?

Since death is destroyed at that point, it would be all of them. The indwelling of God plus immortality. If either situation is unaccounted for death is not destroyed and God is not all in all.

Is there an eternal state? and if so, what is it called in scripture?

I would call that the state of immortality or being immortal. The scripture says that God is olam/aion, invisible and immortal (1 tim 1:17). He is king olam, to the horizon into the indefinite future, plus he is invisible, plus he is immortal.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life(aionian zoe).

The word "perish" is from appolumi which doesn't mean "die" but us actually the word used for "lost" used to describe those who don't know God or have a relationship with God. The same word was used for the Prodigal son. He was lost then found. Being the indwelling of the Spirit, it is saying that those who believe in Christ will be saved from their state of being lost by being given the Spirit of God. Those who hate their neighbors are have not passed from death to life and no murderer has eonian life within him.

Maybe for some the fear is that if we allow "aionian" to mean forever in regards to life- we must allow it to mean forever in regards to kolassis. Viewing "aionian" as "olam" removes that fear correctly. olam and aionian are adjectives conditional upon the subject they describe.

It wouldn't alleviate that fear for me because of the indefinite nature of the word olam. That indefinite nature is what I believe is an age. To me, it doesn't matter if eonian life was only eonian life as long as there are eons. This mortal must put on immortality. Case closed for me. So even if eonian life does not mean forever life but indefinite life or "life to the horizon", immortals cannot die and death will be destroyed.

[Tom]

I don't think association of "olam" or "aion" with God makes them mean "infinite." The "eonian God" (Romans 16:26) is simply speaking about God during the eons just as "eonian life" refers to life during the eons. That's why I keep saying that "eonian life" will end because the eons will end, but life will not end because of immortality.

[eaglesway]

Well Seth, Thanks for answering my questions. I still think aionian zoe and immortality are the same, but we can agree to disagree. Clearly, olam, in the OT is something that cannot be limited within the concept of an age.

It is not possible to justify such a limited meaning when looking at all the usages of olam in the OT.

We will have to agree to disagree at this point, but olam definitely includes everlasting in some uses as I see it, an is "very varied" in its application to time and also the unknown world, distances unseeable but vaguely remembered, seeing through a glass darkly, etc.

The thread is on the meaning of "olam". Olam is the root from which aionion is drawn, so I am asserting that eonioan should be understood in the light of "olam". To try to understand "olam" through the Greek use of eonian is cart before the horse in my opinion, so I guess we will agree to disagree there as well.

Unless one have really done the work( I am not saying you havent, I dont know) of going through the ovr 400 uses of olam in the OT, they cannot understand the variety of application for it, and how it works in the Hebrew language.  I personally dont see how anyone who thoroughly studies the OT usages of "olam" woulld not at least acknowledge the fact that it also includes eternity in some usages.

The "olam" (horizon and beyond) includes eternity, and at the very least when it is used as an adjective of God, it includes immortality- and that is quite often in the OT.

Also, The relation of appolumi to aionian zoe, regardless of how you define it, is that if you "believe" it wont happen to you. Perishing includes dying and Death is the overal source of perishing, but the question was not about dying versus perishing, it was whther aionian zoe is eternal/immortal- both as a quality of existence AND a duration of existence, and whether thay are the same thing.

I guess we disagree pretty substantially in this area of study :o)

It will all come to light in the "olam ha-ba" (world to come).

I think it also important to note that "olam" is not a word that has passed from use. It is still used and understood by Jewish rabbis/theologians today. Altho language definitley changes, "olam" is a Hebrew word that has maintained continuous use through the centuries of Hebrew thought, and therefore retains at least some degree of its original meaning in its contemporary usage. So, to wrap up, since the thread is about the meaning of "olam", I would reccomend to anyone and everyone that it is worth the study- especially going through the uses of it in the OT, but also its contemporary use.

"Tikkun olam" is a contemporary use, meaning "healing the world".

"Olam ha-ba" is the world to come, having been healed.

"Olam ha-ze" is this present wounded world.

BTW, all these concepts are consistent with the restoration of all things, especialy Ro 8:18-23 and Eph 1:9-11 and Eph 2:7 :o)

They are all contemporary uses that go back the early rabbinic period (6th century)and before, so there is a relatively secure assurance of continuity.

The "world" aspect of olam cannot be reasonably ignored either, and reflects also on aion- that is why aion has been translated "world" and "aions of  aions" has been translated "worlds without end"- aion comes from "olam".

[Seth]

It is not possible to justify such a limited meaning when looking at all the usages of olam in the OT.

I believe it absolutely is possible. When attached to God, for example, I see "olam God" would be "God to the horizon," or "God into the indefinite future" generation to generation as time moves forward. That has no negative impact on his immortality, the fact that I retain the meaning of "indefinite future" without changing the meaning to infinite.

We will have to agree to disagree at this point, but olam definitely includes everlasting in some uses as I see it, an is "very varied" in its application to time and also the unknown world, distances unseeable but vaguely remembered, seeing through a glass darkly, etc.

That's cool. I just don't think the opposing viewpoint (of not believing olam changes meaning) weakens the teaching of UR.

Unless one have really done the work( I am not saying you havent, I dont know) of going through the ovr 400 uses of olam in the OT, they cannot understand the variety of application for it, and how it works in the Hebrew language.  I personally dont see how anyone who thoroughly studies the OT usages of "olam" woulld not at least acknowledge the fact that it also includes eternity in some usages.

I think it means "to the horizon" or "indefinite (unknown) future or past" and I don't think it changes meaning depending on attachments. And that does not mitigate God's status as immortal or undying. If I see a bridge and I say "it's a great bridge." I might mean it's a good quality bridge or a big bridge. That depends on my intention, not on the attachment of "great" to "bridge."

Similarly, I could say God is great. That might mean I am saying God is big or God is considerably above average. The fact that I attached "great" to "God" does not affect the meaning of "great" either way, my intention does.

Attaching "olam" to "life" doesn't automatically change the meaning of "olam." It still means "to the horizon," and olam va'ed means "to the horizon and beyond."

Also, The relation of appolumi to aionian zoe, regardless of how you define it, is that if you "believe" it wont happen to you. Perishing includes dying and Death is the overal source of perishing, but the question was not about dying versus perishing, it was whther aionian zoe is eternal/immortal- both as a quality of existence AND a duration of existence, and whether thay are the same thing.

But you were asking me questions about how I would view that scripture. In relation to how "appolumi" is used in other passages of the Bible, the LOST sheep and the LOST coin and the LOST son, the fact that I believe "eonian life" is the indwelling of God is what leads me to believe that it is saying that the Holy Spirit will be given to believers to save them from their lost state. That's just my opinion which is what I thought you were asking, about how I would interpret that scripture through my view of eonian life.

"Tikkun olam" is a contemporary use, meaning "healing the world".

"Olam ha-ba" is the world to come, having been healed.

"Olam ha-ze" is this present wounded world".

All these concepts are consistent with the restoration of all things, especialy Ro 8:18-23 and Eph 1:9-11 and Eph 2:7 :o)

They are all contemporary uses that go back the early rabbinic period (6th century)and before, so there is a relatively secure assurance of continuity.

The "world" aspect of olam cannot be reasonably ignored either, and that is why aion has been translated "world" and "aions of  aions" has been translated "worlds without end"- aion comes from "olam".

"World" doesn't mean infinity on its own either. In that case, you would need another adjective to describe the "world" as infinite in itself, like "infinite olam."

1 Tim 1:17
Now unto the King eternal (aion), immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I believe that is saying to the king "olam" (into the indefinite future, or of the world), invisible, and immortal. Three aspects of his character together. Saying that olam does not mean infinite in this case, doesn't detract from the other aspect of his character of being immortal.

In that case, I could let olam retain it's meaning of "indefinite future" or "to the horizon" and not question the infinite nature of God, and what I am saying is that you can do that in ALL cases of olam in relation to God because the Bible says he is immortal.

[Tom]

The Concordant Publishing Concern had people working on the word "olam" for quite awhile, and they published an English translation of the Hebrew scriptures. They don't say that "olam" means "eternity."

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html