Clarification

[Seth]

The lie is that "hell" is an afterlife place of conscious literal torment in fire forever. But to say that "hell" is the suffering due to our own actions is a denial of such a place and redefines the terms. I believe Gehenna represents that judgment, not that it is actually "hell" as understood by orthodox Christiianity.

  It is ongoing  in the sense that lawlessness   increases   and the rotting corpses of   mortal men   have always   from the time of the valley of Hinnom to Gehenna are the  in  same place       where the carrion is   so will the  dead bodies be
  Jesus refers to this place of "punishment " as the worm dies not and   fire is not quenched  , it is a  ever  on going  example of sin = death  though the ages

Even the law of the land  exercises judgment for  evil doing

Yes, to descended from the higher place into a valley speaks volumes metaphorically.

[Patinak]

The lie is that "hell" is an afterlife place of conscious literal torment in fire forever. But to say that "hell" is the suffering due to our own actions is a denial of such a place and redefines the terms. I believe Gehenna represents that judgment, not that it is actually "hell" as understood by orthodox Christiianity.

  It is ongoing  in the sense that lawlessness   increases   and the rotting corpses of   mortal men   have always   from the time of the valley of Hinnom to Gehenna are the  in  same place       where the carrion is   so will the  dead bodies be
  Jesus refers to this place of "punishment " as the worm dies not and   fire is not quenched  , it is a  ever  on going  example of sin = death  though the ages

Even the law of the land  exercises judgment for  evil doing

Yes, to descended from the higher place into a valley speaks volumes metaphorically.

Well put you two! 
Rose, keep up the great posts.
Seth, I have added that last line to my folder of favorite quotes.
Thanks,
Pat

[marie glen]

In the writings on Tentmaker, sometimes it is declared there is no Hell :punish:, other times it's not eternal or it's not what we've been taught.  WTH?

I'm down with UR :thumbsup: and the possibility of Hell as a kind of Purgatory. :sigh:  Even better if Life is Purgatory and Hell is what we make of life on Earth. 

So I guess it comes down, we might get punished after death, for time at least, or not. :dontknow:

Does the Bible give us any definitive answers to clarify?  I suppose there's a "book" by Gary A.  If so point me in the right direction.

Jerry

I think the 'punishment' spoken of referring to believers is to be "caught unawares" in latter days, not knowing the signs of His coming.. His wheat (from the parable, Mt 13) is "gathered into His barn" (1 Thess 4:16,17) "and the tares/weeds are gathered to be burned, so shall it be at the end of the age".. 2 gatherings(rev 14) gathered to Armageddon(rev 16:14-16)..

Rev 20:14 -
KJV - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Young's Literal - "And the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;
Concordant Version - "And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire."

We can see that if hades, translated hell, is thrown into the LOF, then the LOF cannot be 'hell' - so if there be a fiery hell/hades/death, it is at best (worst!) temporary..

It depends, imo, in large part upon what one sees as "hades-the place of the dead".. Is it a state of life after death, or death as an alternate form of life? Or is the place of the dead still sheol where "there is no knowing nor doing"? i.e., the grave.. (Eccles 9:10, and in this case, actually translated as "the grave" in the KJ,etc)

You probably know that "gehenna" was the city dump where even the corpses of criminals were burned about which Jesus said "it's better your hand be cast into than you offend one of these little ones and your whole body cast into" - Mark 9:42-43 (Strong's #1067)

"tartarus" is a place, and/or state of deep darkness where angels who left their place are locked into for judgment.. Strong's #5020-"abyss" (does not mention fire)
KJ Version - "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment"
Young's Literal - "For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved"

"outer darkness" is separation from God where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth..

"hellfire" also gehenna, as "Hinnom" the valley of, where the battle of Armageddon will occur.. fiery judgment (upon earth/this life) Strong's greek #1067

"the gates of hell".. brought down to hell" is the Greek word "hades" Strong's #86, "place of the dead" and, or the unseen (according to Greek theory)

In the concordance under "hell" there is these three translated as `hell`- (1)-#86 "hades place or realm of the dead, imho, still the grave/sheol of the Old Testament, (2)-#1067 "hinnom valley", and (3)-#5020 "tartarus/abyss" in relation to rebel angels, no mention of fire..

In the Old testament, there's only one (translated as `hell') - sheol Strong's #7585 - said to be 'hades' but Ecclesiastes 9:10 which originally uses "sheol" says -

Young's Literal "All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going."

King James  "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

New International Version " Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (nada/none)
    :smile: :Peace2:

[Tom]

I believe "hell" is simply the Old English word used in the King James Version to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls, and "Gehenna" is only associated with "hell" due to the forgery perpetrated in the King James Version and the Douay Rheims Catholic Version. "Gehenna" never should have been translated "hell" because "Gehenna" is a completely different word representing a completely different thought which is simply the city dump of Jerusalem used to burn the corpses of executed criminals in the past as Isaiah 66:23,24 says it will also be used in the next "eon." The only reason the church intentionally mistranslated "Gehenna" as "hell" was to give the false impression that so called immortal souls would be tortured in fire there forever which is a lie. That forgery plus the mistranslation of the Greek "aion," literally "eon," and it's adjective "aionion," literally "eonian," also give a false impression that the lie of so called immortal souls being tortured in fire in "Gehenna," mistranslated as "hell," would last forever because "aionion" was translated as "eternal" rather than "eonian." An "eon" is a period of time with a beginning and an end. The adjective of a period of time does not describe endless time. So "aionion" should not be translated "eternal." Scripture speaks of "eonian life" not "eternal life." I believe only God is "eternal" because he had no beginning and will always be. Believers in mankind are blessed with "eonian life" not "eternal life." I believe that believers will be given immortality when we're snatched away, and Christ meets us in the air. I believe that unbelievers will not be tortured in fire in "Gehenna" or in "hell" because they will simply be dead in "the lake of fire" which scripture says is "the second death" from which they will be brought back to life and given immortality at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. That's when God will be all in all which is the true ultimate plan of God. Torture in fire forever is Satan's lie that unfortunately is propagated by the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church. Even though I know the word "hell" is used figuratively by people to mean any evil that they experience even while they're alive, it's only because the word "hell" has been distorted by orthodox theology to mean suffering, but an accurate translation of scripture doesn't say that. It's simply the "unseen" state of dead souls. I believe that believers as well as unbelievers are simply "unseen" and figuratively sleeping until they will be resurrected, believers first when Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers at the consummation of the eons.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)   

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

[Seth]

Even though I know the word "hell" is used figuratively by people to mean any evil that they experience even while they're alive, it's only because the word "hell" has been distorted by orthodox theology to mean suffering, but an accurate translation of scripture doesn't say that.

Apart from a literal interpretation of Gehenna, I believe all the same things you just talked about. It's already understood that Hell is a mythical place, but when I saw Gary write that hell is what we experience in life on earth as I was searching the scriptures about UR I understood what he meant. He meant that the myth of hell took people's minds off of the suffering that occurs around us in favor of emphasizing a mythical place. He was using a turn of phrase to bring that to light and I thought it was a good point. It didn't confuse me one bit as a seeker.

[marie glen]

..it's true religion/belief and worldview, has pretty much always been used to "control the people". For whatever reason, the hell doctrine has come about, I believe it greatly blasphemes God's holy character.. And i know it very efficiently covers and hides the truth.. After almost 2000 years of being handed down thru human hands, and of being made up of humans, it's not really surprising that Christianity has lost some of the glory of its message, and has also picked up some baggage along the way. Thank the LORD for His Word..! :HeartThrob:

[GerWat]

MUCH ado about semantics.  Enough already! :doh:

Call it what you will, we suffer because of our sin, in this life, maybe even after.  It matters not, as long as it doesn't last forever.

Good discussion... I think.  Maybe I think too much, that's how I get in trouble.

[micah7:9]

Well the post "Clarification" seems will always be as EW is fond of saying
1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

For which clarification is always blurry, murky, muddy as we journey in His Word. :2c:

[ed]

MUCH ado about semantics.  Enough already! :doh:

Call it what you will, we suffer because of our sin, in this life, maybe even after.  It matters not, as long as it doesn't last forever.

Good discussion... I think.  Maybe I think too much, that's how I get in trouble.

Good thread.

Thanks for sharing.

I just don't worry about the hereafter.  I really don't know that there is going to be one.  It is faith.  In faith I trust that the loving God will take care of things hereafter just fine.

God has always dealt with me in love.  God is love.  In judgement, God will still be love and be with us the whole time.  How can we not trust?

:thumbsup:

[lastpost]

"...Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed"

I am led to believe that in the degree that certainty is in the place of faith,
the gladness that is to come would be hindered by that degree.

The faith that makes the certainty is better
because darkness is ruled out altogether by the light,
and sorrow is burnt up by the joy which is of God.

In my opinion.

[Seth]

In the writings on Tentmaker, sometimes it is declared there is no Hell :punish:, other times it's not eternal or it's not what we've been taught.  WTH?

I'm down with UR :thumbsup: and the possibility of Hell as a kind of Purgatory. :sigh:  Even better if Life is Purgatory and Hell is what we make of life on Earth. 

So I guess it comes down, we might get punished after death, for time at least, or not. :dontknow:

Does the Bible give us any definitive answers to clarify?  I suppose there's a "book" by Gary A.  If so point me in the right direction.

Jerry

To answer the other part of your question, does the Bible give definitive answers I believe so. You asked if "we" get punished after death, and I believe that is a "no" for the faithful to Christ and his commandment to love. But is "yes" for those who "believe not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" as the Bible puts it.


My reasoning is here: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html

[marie glen]

In the writings on Tentmaker, sometimes it is declared there is no Hell :punish:, other times it's not eternal or it's not what we've been taught.  WTH?

I'm down with UR :thumbsup: and the possibility of Hell as a kind of Purgatory. :sigh:  Even better if Life is Purgatory and Hell is what we make of life on Earth. 

So I guess it comes down, we might get punished after death, for time at least, or not. :dontknow:

Does the Bible give us any definitive answers to clarify?  I suppose there's a "book" by Gary A.  If so point me in the right direction.

Jerry

To answer the other part of your question, does the Bible give definitive answers I believe so. You asked if "we" get punished after death, and I believe that is a "no" for the faithful to Christ and his commandment to love. But is "yes" for those who "believe not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" as the Bible puts it.


My reasoning is here: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html

  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I second that! :smile: a thing about the "letters to the seven churches" is the letter to the church of Philadelphia-(Greek, "brotherly love") is the one which says "will keep you from the hour of trial coming upon the earth to test" (try/discipline) "all" (Rev 3:10) and there's not a rebuke (but a warning when He comes He comes quickly, hold fast what you have..)

"Love is the fulfilling of the law" .."works no ill.." surely it is by loving Him, that one "receives grace" to love their fellow person..

"But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat his fellow servants.. ..the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of.. ..There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." from Mt 24:48-51

Philadelphia/brotherly love..

"straight is the way and narrow the gate".. the new testament letters warned over and over, and said to watch out for two "enemies" - legalists and libertines.. the two L's - different from the true L - Love.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[Caffus]

I do believe in necessary correction, punishment before and or after death. Only until a person is able to surrender all to God. Love God with all there heart and soul, forgive everyone and love everyone. No pride is allowed in Heaven as all our righteousness is from Christ alone. We need to accept His grace before we can enter.
Jesus said many will say to me Lord, Lord, didn't we do this and that in your name?...They think they deserve eternal life,.none of us do, we need to humbley accept His gift.  :2c:

[JonesHenry]

ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!



The Sumerians believed in Hell...but Abraham didn't!


The Egyptians believed in Hell...but Moses didn't!



Because almost ALL bible translators believed in Hell, they translated Gehenna to mean Hell!



The greek word therefor would be actually HADES!



The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!


"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 4:24



"for our "God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:29



The German word HELL cromes from the Hela godess, ruler of the Scandinavian underworld!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00_o1arKeIA



The bible has no place known as "Hell" They just tried to FIT it there!


The Hebrew word Sheol literally means THE GRAVE!

[Lazarus Short]

ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!

The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!


"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 4:24



"for our "God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:29

If God is a consuming fire, what does His fire consume?  It consumes our wood, hay, and stubble, leaving the gold, silver, and precious stones.  Those who have more of the former, and less of the latter, will suffer loss - but they will be saved as through the selfsame Fire.  I think few of us will escape some loss... :2c:

[Caffus]

I didn't mention the word "hell"....but there are many people who die knowing nothing of the Truth, or maybe are filled with hate or pride or someother sins....some of us learn more here some after. God is just..we all must learn submission. No sin will enter. None of us die perfect, etheir. But I think if we can surrender all to Him He will give us His mercy and righteousness.  The Bible does speak about punishments quite a bit...there only for our ultimate good though. Perfect love casts out fear. He knows what He is doing and He is in control.  We must forgive and love all, or it could never be Heaven.  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!

The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!


"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 4:24



"for our "God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:29

If God is a consuming fire, what does His fire consume?  It consumes our wood, hay, and stubble, leaving the gold, silver, and precious stones.  Those who have more of the former, and less of the latter, will suffer loss - but they will be saved as through the selfsame Fire.  I think few of us will escape some loss... :2c:

I agree. Here's some fiery loss, and I wouldn't want to be purified in this way:

Deuteronomy 4
23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee.

24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:

26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

To me this explains why the wrath of God should be avoided but still results in repentance and salvation. To me, we should want to avoid being devoured in that way but it doesn't mean it wouldn't work like a charm if we were.

Yet I do not believe that the faithful are appointed to be devoured such, because they aren't appointed to wrath.

[JonesHenry]

because they aren't appointed to wrath.

I think you should check out a Christian minister called Steve Macvey, and hes sermon of "grace walk"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rPO3e0gUtU



Steve is VERY GOOD with hes greek!



The greek words for "wrath" in the book of Revelation are Orge and Thumos



Actually they BOTH mean GREAT PASSION! We just know the word Orge through our well known word ORGASM!



It basicly means "to grab onto something"



I think most men here know very well WHY :laugh:



Gods WRATH is a fiery passion! But to us humans it must really look like HELL!!!

[marie glen]

ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!



The Sumerians believed in Hell...but Abraham didn't!


The Egyptians believed in Hell...but Moses didn't!



Because almost ALL bible translators believed in Hell, they translated Gehenna to mean Hell!



The greek word therefor would be actually HADES!



The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!


"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 4:24



"for our "God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:29



The German word HELL cromes from the Hela godess, ruler of the Scandinavian underworld!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00_o1arKeIA



The bible has no place known as "Hell" They just tried to FIT it there!


The Hebrew word Sheol literally means THE GRAVE!

   :iagree: :iagree: Amen, amen!! I 100% agree with all of that! And I loved how you said it!

..it's my belief His purifying fire is also in experience.. "all salted with fire", and I also believe the culmination and final outcome, results, etc of human history, will be a purifying fire.. "he comes in fire with his angels.. the sheep and goats / wheat in my barn, but tares gathered to be burned.. gathered to armageddon.." (2 Th 1:7;Mt 25:32;Mt 13:30;Rev 16:14-16)

[marie glen]

We must forgive and love all, or it could never be Heaven.  :HeartThrob:

    :banana: :iagree: :dsunny: :iagree: Amen! :)

[rosered]

ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!



The Sumerians believed in Hell...but Abraham didn't!


The Egyptians believed in Hell...but Moses didn't!



Because almost ALL bible translators believed in Hell, they translated Gehenna to mean Hell!



The greek word therefor would be actually HADES!



The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!


"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 4:24



"for our "God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:29



The German word HELL cromes from the Hela godess, ruler of the Scandinavian underworld!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00_o1arKeIA



The bible has no place known as "Hell" They just tried to FIT it there!


The Hebrew word Sheol literally means THE GRAVE!

   :iagree: :iagree: Amen, amen!! I 100% agree with all of that! And I loved how you said it!

..it's my belief His purifying fire is also in experience.. "all salted with fire", and I also believe the culmination and final outcome, results, etc of human history, will be a purifying fire.. "he comes in fire with his angels.. the sheep and goats / wheat in my barn, but tares gathered to be burned.. gathered to armageddon.." (2 Th 1:7;Mt 25:32;Mt 13:30;Rev 16:14-16)

     Good stuff to consider      Marie and JonesHenry  !! 

I thought of David  declaring      Gods presence is    everywhere and in everyone       Psalm 139 ; 8 You have Searched Me and Know Me
...7Where can I go from Your Spirit?

Or where can I flee from Your presence?


8If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.


9If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,...


Gods presence is ever before us     

Love it  you brought up the ''salted with fire '''   Marie

  I cannot help  but think of Jesus words  about lots   wife  ''turning into a pillar of salt  ''    when looking back  at Sodom and Gomorrah .

  Jesus   uses  , the example of    lots wife as   nameless  , yet  the wife of   Lots youth  as a part of him  ,  the '' woman come out of man and made for man /helpmeet  ''

  and'' salt''     in  meaning     is  to be '''humbled   '''     though he escaped the fire       , it was only by Gods help and sending angels to '' minister to him''

  and Jesus uses this example in  ''remember Lots wife ''   in those wanting to   save their lives loose them and those whom loose their ''lives /wives / soulish'' part of humanity ?        that rules   the heart     ?    this soul/  wives /lives   '' exchange'''   
is     having the    the life/soul    seat of emotions   '' of Christ   instead  ''       in Luke 17   

the Woman /true church  /body of Christ is    His soul  /life    that comes out of Jesus Christ  as the offering  , exchange  gave it up    for GODS  DESIRE to be done  , was this not Israel   for a time ?     till the fulness of the Gentiles /all other nations    to come in also ?   

 

He shall see his soul and be satisfied [Isaiah 53    ]A Grave Assigned
...10But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied;

By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many,

As He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong;

Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.


now Luke 17


  31 "On that day, a person who is on the roof [C roofs were typically flat and used as extra rooms] and whose belongings are in the house should not ·go inside [L come down] to get them. A person who is in the field should not ·go back home [L turn back].



32 Remember Lot's wife [C who was judged for longingly looking back at Sodom; Gen. 19:15–17, 26]. 33 Those who try to ·keep [preserve; keep secure] their lives will lose them.


But those who ·give up [lose; let go of] their lives will save them.


34 I tell you, on that night two people will be sleeping in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.

35 There will be two women grinding grain together; one will be taken, and the other will be left. |36 Two people will be in the field. One will be taken, and the other will be left.|"

37 ·The followers [L They] asked Jesus, "·Where will this be [L Where], Lord?"

Jesus answered, "Where there is a ·dead body [corpse], there the vultures will gather [C the carnage will make the place of judgment obvious to all]."

  Throughout the   time of the beginning to the end of days in the natural lives  / souls of men have been made an example of to what  ,  they gave up for God  or did not give up    for  God  being  ''the Kingdom  of God ''   
Life and death are in the   tongue /peoples   and nations   , past present and future ... all generations    are before Him     ..........


    many peoples  tongues & nations Rev 17
14"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."


15And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.


16"And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire....
   what is the souls of man are the     harlot   soul that come out of man and  made them kings of the earth ?

It makes great sense to me when considering it    as a   simple truth  throughout the ages  of mankind    .. :Book:

[marie glen]

many peoples  tongues & nations Rev 17
14"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."


15And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.


16"And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire....
   what is the souls of man are the     harlot   soul that come out of man and  made them kings of the earth ?

It makes great sense to me when considering it    as a   simple truth  throughout the ages  of mankind    .. :Book:

..."a simple truth throughout the ages of mankind.."  :iagree: :iagree: I so agree! I think this proving of good over evil is the same lesson of every person's life and is also the lesson of mankind's history as a whole.. the same story over and over.. and of every age..

Every age man has built his kingdoms atop God's glorious creation, til people do not even see God's glorious creation any more, but are anchored in man's world, as though it were "real" and lasting.. instead of so highly temporary!

And what a paradox, that what man creates (the world empires and governings built on sand, and the peak of it, gone global) will destroy and devour what man has created which also has gone global and has seduced all the world - imo, at this age, socialism(government) will finally devour capitalism, which went "pornos" the greek of harlot and mesmerized and enchanted all seven continents of the world.. hence man's own creations destroyed by man's own creation.. What better or wiser way for our all wise Father to prove to all, in heaven and earth, finally and forever, how life apart from His Will is, simply, not do-able, but always can only crash and burn.. And this is an eternal truth, both individually and collectively.

And praise God! "of the increase of HiS government and peace there shall be no end.." All, I believe, will fully understand the simple lesson of good from evil, which is also, I believe, life from death.. and how there is only one Governor.. one King.. one Kingdom.. None others - including self (kingdom) - simply can never endure.. all built on sand.. The simple lesson that God is Life, and any other thing is death and nonlife.. and can't work, never can work.. And one's own armageddon, and the world's armageddon, is the unveiling that will thoroughly convince the world of sin/good from evil/life from nonlife/light from darkness/true from untrue..

8If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.


9If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,...


Gods presence is ever before us     

Amen and praise Him.. He is Perfect and Perfection. I personally do not believe it is possible for Him to lose any thing/any one.. He desires that none should perish.. to be testified to in due time.. each in his own order, Christ the firstfruits, afterward those at His coming.. & then when He delivers the kingdom to the Father.. Whither can we go from His Presence / Salvation..?
   :smile: :dsunny: :banana: