Clarification

[GerWat]

In the writings on Tentmaker, sometimes it is declared there is no Hell :punish:, other times it's not eternal or it's not what we've been taught.  WTH?

I'm down with UR :thumbsup: and the possibility of Hell as a kind of Purgatory. :sigh:  Even better if Life is Purgatory and Hell is what we make of life on Earth. 

So I guess it comes down, we might get punished after death, for time at least, or not. :dontknow:

Does the Bible give us any definitive answers to clarify?  I suppose there's a "book" by Gary A.  If so point me in the right direction.

Jerry

[Seth]

As far as I know, Gary doesn't believe in hell at all. Can you provide a link?

[Tom]

How can anybody be punished for anything when they're dead? You're either alive or you're dead. Scripture says the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). I was taught to believe in Purgatory when I was a Catholic kid, but it's a lie that's not in scripture.

What do you think the church was trying to hide when it tortured and killed people just for reading scripture? Scripture was not suppressed by killing people with fire, but forgery was committed in the translation of scripture deceiving people with fear of torture in fire forever. The common misconception of "hell" is a lie. The word "hell" is an Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. "Gehenna" is confused with "hell" by intentional mistranslation twelve times in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna," the ravine of Hinnom southwest of Jerusalem, was used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god. "Gehenna" was later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon. Christ referred to Isaiah's prophecy when he spoke of "Gehenna."

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh" (Isaiah 66:23,24).

"The lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14-King James Version).

Even the adulterated versions of scripture say God is the savior of all mankind who will reconcile all through Christ so that God may be all in all.

"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).

"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

[sheila]

my  :2c:   after we die the judgement.  People think that means if we did good[even through Christ] the judgement will go well......

  rewards..etc.  if we did evil...that we get thrown into the LOF/Punished etc as correction.  But the TOKOGAE =DEATH......

  the Judgement is when God applies His judgement of all have bore the image of the corrupt one...and all shall bear the image

  of the incorrupt one. And the Judgement of God is that He has waived this and chosen MERCY OVER JUDGEMENT in Jesus

Christ...and is freely giving to all men the TOL,whether they were a vessel of/good/evil use...to eat of the TOL which has no death in it.


   Overcoming this [prince of this]world..even satan the accusor..BY THE FREE GRACE HE HAS GIVEN THROUGH HIS SON....

  the churches[saints] were overcome by the dragon..and push burning in fire/torment/Baal doctrines of torture/torment...something

which never come up in our Father's heart.  So,saint and sinner are corrected of their erronous judgements... by HIS JUDGEMENTS...and

OUR FATHER is not counting sins against us...good/evil judgement is death to all men.[corrupt image is mix of good/evil and is death]

  there is no life in this for any of US  by that tree..but...the TOL has no death dealing record of the offense...it is grace..not being

wise enough to choose the good and reject the evil....self/righteousness is nullified/corrected of the saints..if we have any righteous good

thing in us/surely it is of Him..Paul said I know no 'good' thing dwells in my flesh...no flesh will boast..not even the saints. Those men

  called of the church 'sinners' will also recieve the free gift of Grace and be granted to eat of the TOL.

   what IS judged..is the 'works' done in the body.....the Prince of this world is judged..that his works are wicked[in the body of

men/Adam]  and the 'good' work of God done through Jesus...is the goodness/good news unto all men...of God....


  mercy triumphs over judgement..have ye not heard? God's goodness unto all men[Christ] shall break up the 'wicked works of the devil"

   wicked works of the devil shall be burned up...death is the sting of sin/wickedness..that is why it is burned up.........

......and He shall gather out of His kingdom all things that cause sin,offense,stumbling...root/fruit of wickedness consumed


    now..the water's are muddied..as it pertains to God's  water's of life by men's seeing through a glass darkly  judgement...

   the free gift of the water of life to ALL..is CHRYST AL[L] CLEAR...and the TOL is on both sides of that river..[grace]bearing

  12 MAN[NER] of FRUIT. EACH MONTH.........unless a kernal of wheat/ Promised seed fall to the earth and die[grace!]

   it remains alone..[not one of them is righteous..not one!]

    but if it fall to the earth and die....it BEARS MUCH FRUIT UNTO HEAVEN.   and if I be lifted up..I shall draw ALL men unto me

   the promised SEED=GRACE  UNTO ALL MEN.....IT DESTROYS THE SERPENTS/SATANS MIND[mankiller/liar from the beginning]

[sheila]

  Father doesn't always do His 'good/perfect works' to be seen by men. He most usually does them in secret.  He has furnished us open

displays as a wittness unto  His power to do these things in His son. Jesus said..'I do only what I see the Father doing" and so...

  we can know..that in Heaven...Jesus saw His Father raising the dead..casting out demons..opening blind eyes and opening deaf

  ears...curing of all maladies,sickness...teaching..rebuking the accusor/offspring of viper spirits..planting/watering/growing  His

spirit and image in fallen/overcome men.  Freely forgiving  man..healing and restoring man and giving of the waters of eternal life.


        He made an open display unto the good works of the Father done in Him..here on earth. triumphing over the mind/head of the

   serpent/death/sins sting.but it was all a small token of the  POWER AND THE GLORY AND THE LOVE OF THE FATHER TO US....

    ....and the fullness of it is near at the door!!!!!!!!!!

[Tom]

I think those who die as unbelievers will be raised and judged before the great white throne and then cast into the lake of fire which is the second death (Revelation 20:14). That means they'll be dead, not conscious to be punished or tormented, but they'll be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26). I know some folks here believe there will be some kind of conscious correction in the lake of fire, but I don't believe that. I think the judgment referred to in Matthew 25:31-46 is of the nations for how they treated the Jews, and it comes a thousand years before the great white throne judgment of individual sinners.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil027.html

[idontknow]

I think those who die as unbelievers will be raised and judged before the great white throne and then cast into the lake of fire which is the second death (Revelation 20:14). That means they'll be dead, not conscious to be punished or tormented, but they'll be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26). I know some folks here believe there will be some kind of conscious correction in the lake of fire, but I don't believe that. I think the judgment referred to in Matthew 25:31-46 is of the nations for how they treated the Jews, and it comes a thousand years before the great white throne judgment of individual sinners.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil027.html

I think this is the first depressing thing i have read here at tentmaker. I guess it's still better than eternal torture but this time last year i was an atheist so this kind of thing dont sit well with me. A book is not enough to get atheists to believe, been there done that. i was never into story books even if the story was real.

[Tom]

And what do you believe and why? I'm wondering what's depressing about it to you. The bottom line is that the "hell" we were all taught about is just a lie that's used to control people with fear, but the good news is that God really is love and will save all mankind. Some were chosen to have faith, and some weren't, but even unbelievers will eventually be saved from death at the consummation of the eons. All on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross, and God will be all in all. What's depressing about that?

[idontknow]

And what do you believe and why? I'm wondering what's depressing about it to you. The bottom line is that the "hell" we were all taught about is just a lie that's used to control people with fear, but the good news is that God really is love and will save all mankind. Some were chosen to have faith, and some weren't, but even unbelievers will eventually be saved from death at the consummation of the eons. All on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross, and God will be all in all. What's depressing about that?

Sorry, i made that post late last night i was a it tired and didn't read it properly. I thought you were saying that atheists would be annihilated in the lake of fire for not believing. But now i see that you are saying that even they will be immortalized at some point in time.

[Tom]

Amen, that's what the so called "good news" really is.

[bushy]

To me it seems people on this forum have different understanding on hell and what to do with the word hell, whether to toss it out or see it as what we're going through now. For me hell as a place of fire and endless torture forever is total fiction and this is the hell that is preached about in church and what most people say they believe in. It needs to be thrown out of our vocabulary because there is no such place. The words hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus in the new testament and sheol in the old are obviously not forever torture in fire. We need to retrain our minds to see them for what they are. Also the lake of fire has taken me quite a while to come to a satisfactory understanding of what if means, but it is for our good to burn up what is not of God. "Our God is a consuming fire."

Peter Hiett has a short video here on the lake of fire which might be good to watch. www.youtube.com/watch?v=F27jxwHDrzM

[Seth]

The image of fire being a symbol for spiritual things has a long tradition in the scripture. I believe the same goes for fire in the parables and prophetic writings of the New Testament. The same Christ who gave John the image of a lake of fire is the Christ who inspired Isaiah (chapter 9) to say that wickedness burns like a fire to the raising of a column of smoke. And there are many other scriptures that bear out sinfulness represented by heat and fire. I see it as symbolic and I don't think God is going burn people with literal fire. God has a long tradition throughout the Bible of letting people experience the negative results of their own actions as a judgement that causes them to repent.

[GerWat]

I can accept there is no Hell, period.  Tom makes good sense.  What I'm getting from these answers is, there's no consensus, the Bible says the dead know nothing and the rest is speculation.

Something I read recently was advocating our only "hell" is that which we go through as a result of our sinful acts, i.e. our broken lives.  If that's true, it's applied capriciously which doesn't sound like God at all and that bothers me.

Since I decided to be more open minded about alternate Christian beliefs, to try and decipher truth, oh Lord, what a mountain of confusion.

Jerry

[Seth]

Something I read recently was advocating our only "hell" is that which we go through as a result of our sinful acts, i.e. our broken lives.  If that's true, it's applied capriciously which doesn't sound like God at all and that bothers me.

Hi Jerry can you explain what you mean by that?

[lastpost]

I can accept there is no Hell, period.  Tom makes good sense.  What I'm getting from these answers is, there's no consensus, the Bible says the dead know nothing and the rest is speculation.

Dear Jerry,

I believe there is consciousness and not a state of "suspended unconsciousness" as it were...

37 Now that the dead are rousing, even Moses divulges at the thorn bush, as he is terming the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." 38 Now God is He, not of the dead, but of the living, for all, to Him, are living."

The wicked shall pass into an age-long pruning...

"These shall go away into age-long pruning" (or "...age-lasting chastisement").

I believe these two states are clearly described [without any reason for twisting it] by Christ when He relates what happens in His story showing Lazarus and the rich man dying.

I personally give more credence to New Testament instruction as to me it is on a higher level of revelation as the Old, as man builds on his past lessons.

Peace.

[rosered]

  Hell is the graves,  the hades unseen, and the gehenna   fire is  for corrective  purposes

all the old bible   translations mainly KING JAMES    calls them all Hell

and that is a misuse   of terms , Like Bushy said      they bring  fear for the lack of understanding    the terms and uses in Gods   plan

rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH A Worker Pleasing to God



14 ·Continue teaching [L Remind them of] these things, ·warning people [L solemnly testifying/declaring] in God's presence not to ·argue [quarrel] about words. It ·does not help anyone [is good for nothing], and it ruins those who listen. 15 ·Make every effort [Do your best; Be diligent] to ·give [present] yourself to God as the kind of person he will approve. Be a worker who ·is not ashamed [or will not be shamed] and who ·uses the true teaching in the right way [correctly handles the true message/word of truth; or holds carefully to the true message/word of truth].


16 Stay away from ·foolish, useless talk [godless/irreverent chatter; 1 Tim. 1:3–4; 4:7; 6:20], because that will lead people ·further away from God [into even more ungodliness].

17 Their evil teaching will spread like ·a sickness inside the body [L gangrene]. Hymenaeus [1 Tim. 1:20] and Philetus are like that [C probably false teachers and opponents of Paul from Ephesus].

18 They have ·left [strayed away from] the ·true teaching [truth], saying that the ·rising from the dead [resurrection] has already taken place, and so they are ·destroying [undermining; overturning] the faith of some people.


     Jesus is the resurrection and Life and is always   and in the now present time       Jesus is always    and we must prepare ourselves and share with others  for this opportunity    to meet the Lord Jesus     

19 But God's strong foundation continues to stand, ·sealed [inscribed; engraved] with these words: "The Lord knows those who belong to him [Num. 16:5]," and "Everyone who ·wants to belong to [L names the name of] the Lord must ·stop doing wrong [L turn away from wickedess/injustice]."

The letter of the law that kills is  the same Spirit Jesus told those wanting to bring fire down from heaven and destroy the city not accepting of Jesus    the WORD OF LIFE   , JESUS COME TO GIVE LIFE from the dead        those dead by sin and trespass  or dead from the letter of the law that kills      for God is not the God of the dead but the living    , many err    because they dont understand what this means       

  Jesus is the Lord of the dead and living still raising the dead to Life in Him     and if Lifted up will draw all men to Him     

romans 14 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.


10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?

For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God....
 

[GerWat]

From Seth:  "Something I read recently was advocating our only "hell" is that which we go through as a result of our sinful acts, i.e. our broken lives.  If that's true, it's applied capriciously which doesn't sound like God at all and that bothers me.

Hi Jerry can you explain what you mean by that?"

Hi Seth:
Consider this for instance. Something I found through a link on TM site: http://lovewins.us/560/why-bother-proclaiming-the-gospel/
"How much hell do you want others to go through? The love of Christ compels us. That is the urgency. People must be brought to repentance so they can experience the full redemption and deliverance which Christ died to give them. People will never be saved until they ARE saved. Does it not matter to you if your loved ones or neighbors live out their earthly lifetimes without the joy—and deliverance—that comes from knowing Jesus? What kind of environment do you desire in this world for your children? What about your grandchildren?"

WHAT's full redemption?  WHAT'S deliverance?  I know what joy is, I get that sometimes.  Speaking of the environment of the world we live in, THANK GOD, it's improved gradually since the times of Jesus.  Then people fought to the death for entertainment while orphans and widows starved to death.  Today we rise in protest over every little injustice, some can't even stand to watch football.

I work with a bunch of guys who are quite content to not be bothered with God stuff.  Their lives are, by all appearances, are better than many "Christians" I know.  I envy their contentment.  As a "Christian" I long for the Comforter but know Him not or not as I'd like, which makes me not-a-christian, I guess, and not content.  THAT makes no Hell a kind of comfort to me, like sleeping with a rock for a pillow... or red hot gum. :flamebreath:

The news is full of innocent people who's bodies have been brutalized randomly and for no good reason.  They live in pain and often die forgotten and alone having done nothing to deserve it while others, perhaps those who caused their hurt are happy, healthy and well loved.

The news is also full of guilty people who's bodies have been brutalized for good reason.  Good. :punish:

Is Almighty God sovereign or not?  If so why must our lives be so unpredictable?
If THIS is saved, what's the point?  With a friend like God, who needs enemies? 

God exists outside of time.  So the reality of our salvation must extend to ages past and future. 
So there are none lost, just those who don't know.  And if they did know why would they change anything, I mean, unless they have plans to murder?
They still need to eat and in my experience that means one still needs to work.

Yet, I know that He is love, that He treats me as His child and, though I be thick as a post, someday I'll understand. :dontknow:
I suppose... 

Meanwhile, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. :Pray:

How Then should we preach or witness?  Shall I tell others what God has done for me?  Left me frustrated and near mad in His silence?
"Why preach or witness if all are saved..."  Maybe the thing to do is just help others as much as we can and in so doing make the world a better place...
Like so many people who never go to church because, well, maybe they get it better than many Christians. :sigh:

[Seth]

From Seth:  "Something I read recently was advocating our only "hell" is that which we go through as a result of our sinful acts, i.e. our broken lives.  If that's true, it's applied capriciously which doesn't sound like God at all and that bothers me.

Hi Jerry can you explain what you mean by that?"

Hi Seth:
Consider this for instance. Something I found through a link on TM site: http://lovewins.us/560/why-bother-proclaiming-the-gospel/
"How much hell do you want others to go through? The love of Christ compels us. That is the urgency. People must be brought to repentance so they can experience the full redemption and deliverance which Christ died to give them. People will never be saved until they ARE saved. Does it not matter to you if your loved ones or neighbors live out their earthly lifetimes without the joy—and deliverance—that comes from knowing Jesus? What kind of environment do you desire in this world for your children? What about your grandchildren?"

WHAT's full redemption?  WHAT'S deliverance?  I know what joy is, I get that sometimes.  Speaking of the environment of the world we live in, THANK GOD, it's improved gradually since the times of Jesus.  Then people fought to the death for entertainment while orphans and widows starved to death.  Today we rise in protest over every little injustice, some can't even stand to watch football.

I work with a bunch of guys who are quite content to not be bothered with God stuff.  Their lives are, by all appearances, are better than many "Christians" I know.  I envy their contentment.  As a "Christian" I long for the Comforter but know Him not or not as I'd like, which makes me not-a-christian, I guess, and not content.  THAT makes no Hell a kind of comfort to me, like sleeping with a rock for a pillow... or red hot gum. :flamebreath:

The news is full of innocent people who's bodies have been brutalized randomly and for no good reason.  They live in pain and often die forgotten and alone having done nothing to deserve it while others, perhaps those who caused their hurt are happy, healthy and well loved.

The news is also full of guilty people who's bodies have been brutalized for good reason.  Good. :punish:

Is Almighty God sovereign or not?  If so why must our lives be so unpredictable?
If THIS is saved, what's the point?  With a friend like God, who needs enemies? 

God exists outside of time.  So the reality of our salvation must extend to ages past and future. 
So there are none lost, just those who don't know.  And if they did know why would they change anything, I mean, unless they have plans to murder?
They still need to eat and in my experience that means one still needs to work.

Yet, I know that He is love, that He treats me as His child and, though I be thick as a post, someday I'll understand. :dontknow:
I suppose... 

Meanwhile, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. :Pray:

How Then should we preach or witness?  Shall I tell others what God has done for me?  Left me frustrated and near mad in His silence?
"Why preach or witness if all are saved..."  Maybe the thing to do is just help others as much as we can and in so doing make the world a better place...
Like so many people who never go to church because, well, maybe they get it better than many Christians. :sigh:

So by reading that last post, I take it that by "applied capriciously" you meant that if "hell" or judgement refers to the negative fruit of sin in this life, some are affected by that and others don't seem to notice or care.

I believe that there is a future and final judgement coming. But I also believe that the symbol of Gehenna fire represents represents the negative results of sin upon the sinner. Only, what I believe is that this is not restricted to this life, that the final judgement will resemble the prodigal son parable.

In that way, while I do see the description of fire and death of the final judgement as symbolizing the fruit of sin, I don't see it as capriciously applied because I believe everyone who rejects the righteousness of God in this life will go through a necessary learning experience to come.

[Tom]

We are not going through so called "hell" here on earth. We're simply experiencing evil to humble us making us realize we need God to save us from it. It's actually a blessing in disguise, so to speak, because we need the contrast. We can't appreciate light without darkness. We can't appreciate love without hate. We can't appreciate good without evil. It's no fun when you're experiencing evil, but you're really happy when you finally get a break. Pain, hunger, poverty, sickness, drug addiction, extreme temperatures, loss of loved ones, loneliness, depression, lack of hope, fear, betrayal, loss of a job, loss of your home, the everyday grind of getting older with more aches and pains, slowly but surely dying, and other things that I've forgotten to mention all cause us to experience suffering temporarily until we get some relief, and then we experience extreme gratitude and love for God who saves us from the evil unless we're atheists because then we're clueless and think it's all meaningless. Yes, it's true that God is the source of the evil that causes us to suffer, but it's for our own good in the long run. That's why Adam and Eve were set up in the garden to experience evil because the knowledge of evil is what makes you really appreciate the good that God blesses you with. It's hard to understand that when you're in the midst of evil, but just trust God. 

"Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, made all of these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

"I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." (Ecclesiastes 1:13)

"Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and do not lean to your own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)

"for by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthians 5:7)

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

[Seth]

Pain, hunger, poverty, sickness, drug addiction, extreme temperatures, loss of loved ones, loneliness, depression, lack of hope, fear, betrayal, loss of a job, loss of your home, the everyday grind of getting older with more aches and pains, slowly but surely dying, and other things that I've forgotten to mention all cause us to experience suffering temporarily until we get some relief

I agree with you in your general words of encouragement, but in the above list of ills that befall man, I think they can be separated out. For example, aches and pains, extreme temperatures, loss of loved ones, loss of job may not be the result of what the Bible calls "pleasure in unrighteousness" whereas I can see that drug addiction and betrayal are.

Jesus tell us to avoid Gehenna. It is avoidable. While you and I may have a different view of it, I think the things which cannot be avoided, like aches and pains of age can be taken on by sons of God as opportunities to mature in the faith, whereas the ills of drug addiction are brought upon those who seek refuge in drugs. One causes growth, and the other causes destruction.

The good news, from my perspective, is that repentance comes through the destruction, but it's not a route one should want to take, especially after coming into full knowledge of the truth. I would consider drug addiction to be a kind of hell on earth. I've seen enough of what it does to people which is why I see it that way, whereas the kinds of hardships that try our faith, I see as opportunities to be embraced.

[rosered]

 

I believe there are many traps and snares ,  and this is why we are warned of   them and take examples from the old testament    hardships , 

in the suffering Israel   went though  , its is for our benefit   .

Paul speaks of the temptations in 1 Corth 10   that God can and does  help us out of   ,Just as He did Israel . 
   
  The  scriptures speaks of  fiery trials that come upon us  to test our faith and  proving Gods deliverance .

  This should make us ashamed for doubting  and  increase our faith in Gods power .

I have seen  a drug addict delivered   out of that kind of bondage to sin .

He is a compassionate   preacher   today .

I also see  some dying   with overdose  in our  neighbouring Louisville   Ky area  on heroine .

These are in their    30's middle ages

And in Southern Indiana   there is now  an HIV  epidemic  of  almost 100   infected   since Dec of 2014


Every one has a story and experience     of what  doing good and doing evil can bring upon themselves  and family  mortal  members or the family of God .

  But there is suffering  for sin sickness   and there is sufferings of Christ   , those innocent  ones  helping and doing  good and are   serving   their  fellowman ,
   labouring  in   loving   God,  as family .

God knows   all  our hearts    and the motives   of   the  hearts , that to me,  is the  key as to why  things work out sometimes the way they do .

Sometimes Gods mercy   to me only , as I can see it  , is to free them from  mortality   corruption and  further decay .


I am not convinced yet  that  only in this life and in our mortal bodies is the only time you can cry out to God  to save ,   as many , many preachers teach   :sigh:


Nor am I convinced   that sin and error and trespass is all our   own doing .




 

[Tom]

I think all the things referred to are evil. I personally experienced all the ones I mentioned, and I said I probably forgot to mention some. I don't agree with the idea of "hell" on earth because it just feeds the lie that "hell" is about suffering of some kind while scripture says no such thing. I believe the Old English word "hell," from the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," is simply the unseen state of dead souls. You can try to break down different manifestations of evil into whatever categories you want, but I think they're all still evil we suffer in this wicked eon which we won't have to suffer anymore when we're immortalized. I agree Christ warned about Gehenna, but that's because the Jews considered it to be a dishonorable means of disposing a body after death. I've said before that Gehenna is a real geographical location, a ravine, outside the wall of Jerusalem that I've read was once used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to the Ammonite god, Moloch, and then as the city dump of Jerusalem where corpses of executed criminals were burned and will be again in the next eon, and I believe that's what Christ was warning about. Burning dead bodies is different than claiming to burn so called immortal souls forever. The problem is that Gehenna was intentionally confused with "hell" in the Douay Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version twelve times in the New Testament to deceive people with the fear of being tortured in fire forever. "Hell" is a lie that the Catholic Church and Protestant Church have used to control people with irrational fear instead of teaching the truth that God is the savior of all mankind, and all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all.

[Seth]

The lie is that "hell" is an afterlife place of conscious literal torment in fire forever. But to say that "hell" is the suffering due to our own actions is a denial of such a place and redefines the terms. I believe Gehenna represents that judgment, not that it is actually "hell" as understood by orthodox Christiianity.

[rosered]

The lie is that "hell" is an afterlife place of conscious literal torment in fire forever. But to say that "hell" is the suffering due to our own actions is a denial of such a place and redefines the terms. I believe Gehenna represents that judgment, not that it is actually "hell" as understood by orthodox Christiianity.

  It is ongoing  in the sense that lawlessness   increases   and the rotting corpses of   mortal men   have always   from the time of the valley of Hinnom to Gehenna are the  in  same place       where the carrion is   so will the  dead bodies be
  Jesus refers to this place of ''punishment '' as the worm dies not and   fire is not quenched  , it is a  ever  on going  example of sin = death  though the ages

Even the law of the land  exercises judgment for  evil doing

[rosered]

I think all the things referred to are evil. I personally experienced all the ones I mentioned, and I said I probably forgot to mention some. I don't agree with the idea of "hell" on earth because it just feeds the lie that "hell" is about suffering of some kind while scripture says no such thing. I believe the Old English word "hell," from the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," is simply the unseen state of dead souls. You can try to break down different manifestations of evil into whatever categories you want, but I think they're all still evil we suffer in this wicked eon which we won't have to suffer anymore when we're immortalized. I agree Christ warned about Gehenna, but that's because the Jews considered it to be a dishonorable means of disposing a body after death. I've said before that Gehenna is a real geographical location, a ravine, outside the wall of Jerusalem that I've read was once used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to the Ammonite god, Moloch, and then as the city dump of Jerusalem where corpses of executed criminals were burned and will be again in the next eon, and I believe that's what Christ was warning about. Burning dead bodies is different than claiming to burn so called immortal souls forever. The problem is that Gehenna was intentionally confused with "hell" in the Douay Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version twelve times in the New Testament to deceive people with the fear of being tortured in fire forever. "Hell" is a lie that the Catholic Church and Protestant Church have used to control people with irrational fear instead of teaching the truth that God is the savior of all mankind, and all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all.

The on going problem of sin / lawlessness   Eph 5 expose them

    Those  things  done  in   the darkness  to keep those  from  entering the Light     :dsunny: