In the writings on Tentmaker, sometimes it is declared there is no Hell :punish:, other times it's not eternal or it's not what we've been taught. WTH?
I'm down with UR :thumbsup: and the possibility of Hell as a kind of Purgatory. :sigh: Even better if Life is Purgatory and Hell is what we make of life on Earth.
So I guess it comes down, we might get punished after death, for time at least, or not. :dontknow:
Does the Bible give us any definitive answers to clarify? I suppose there's a "book" by Gary A. If so point me in the right direction.
Jerry
As far as I know, Gary doesn't believe in hell at all. Can you provide a link?
How can anybody be punished for anything when they're dead? You're either alive or you're dead. Scripture says the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). I was taught to believe in Purgatory when I was a Catholic kid, but it's a lie that's not in scripture.
What do you think the church was trying to hide when it tortured and killed people just for reading scripture? Scripture was not suppressed by killing people with fire, but forgery was committed in the translation of scripture deceiving people with fear of torture in fire forever. The common misconception of "hell" is a lie. The word "hell" is an Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. "Gehenna" is confused with "hell" by intentional mistranslation twelve times in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna," the ravine of Hinnom southwest of Jerusalem, was used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god. "Gehenna" was later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon. Christ referred to Isaiah's prophecy when he spoke of "Gehenna."
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh" (Isaiah 66:23,24).
"The lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14-King James Version).
Even the adulterated versions of scripture say God is the savior of all mankind who will reconcile all through Christ so that God may be all in all.
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).
"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).
my :2c: after we die the judgement. People think that means if we did good[even through Christ] the judgement will go well......
rewards..etc. if we did evil...that we get thrown into the LOF/Punished etc as correction. But the TOKOGAE =DEATH......
the Judgement is when God applies His judgement of all have bore the image of the corrupt one...and all shall bear the image
of the incorrupt one. And the Judgement of God is that He has waived this and chosen MERCY OVER JUDGEMENT in Jesus
Christ...and is freely giving to all men the TOL,whether they were a vessel of/good/evil use...to eat of the TOL which has no death in it.
Overcoming this [prince of this]world..even satan the accusor..BY THE FREE GRACE HE HAS GIVEN THROUGH HIS SON....
the churches[saints] were overcome by the dragon..and push burning in fire/torment/Baal doctrines of torture/torment...something
which never come up in our Father's heart. So,saint and sinner are corrected of their erronous judgements... by HIS JUDGEMENTS...and
OUR FATHER is not counting sins against us...good/evil judgement is death to all men.[corrupt image is mix of good/evil and is death]
there is no life in this for any of US by that tree..but...the TOL has no death dealing record of the offense...it is grace..not being
wise enough to choose the good and reject the evil....self/righteousness is nullified/corrected of the saints..if we have any righteous good
thing in us/surely it is of Him..Paul said I know no 'good' thing dwells in my flesh...no flesh will boast..not even the saints. Those men
called of the church 'sinners' will also recieve the free gift of Grace and be granted to eat of the TOL.
what IS judged..is the 'works' done in the body.....the Prince of this world is judged..that his works are wicked[in the body of
men/Adam] and the 'good' work of God done through Jesus...is the goodness/good news unto all men...of God....
mercy triumphs over judgement..have ye not heard? God's goodness unto all men[Christ] shall break up the 'wicked works of the devil"
wicked works of the devil shall be burned up...death is the sting of sin/wickedness..that is why it is burned up.........
......and He shall gather out of His kingdom all things that cause sin,offense,stumbling...root/fruit of wickedness consumed
now..the water's are muddied..as it pertains to God's water's of life by men's seeing through a glass darkly judgement...
the free gift of the water of life to ALL..is CHRYST AL[L] CLEAR...and the TOL is on both sides of that river..[grace]bearing
12 MAN[NER] of FRUIT. EACH MONTH.........unless a kernal of wheat/ Promised seed fall to the earth and die[grace!]
it remains alone..[not one of them is righteous..not one!]
but if it fall to the earth and die....it BEARS MUCH FRUIT UNTO HEAVEN. and if I be lifted up..I shall draw ALL men unto me
the promised SEED=GRACE UNTO ALL MEN.....IT DESTROYS THE SERPENTS/SATANS MIND[mankiller/liar from the beginning]
Father doesn't always do His 'good/perfect works' to be seen by men. He most usually does them in secret. He has furnished us open
displays as a wittness unto His power to do these things in His son. Jesus said..'I do only what I see the Father doing" and so...
we can know..that in Heaven...Jesus saw His Father raising the dead..casting out demons..opening blind eyes and opening deaf
ears...curing of all maladies,sickness...teaching..rebuking the accusor/offspring of viper spirits..planting/watering/growing His
spirit and image in fallen/overcome men. Freely forgiving man..healing and restoring man and giving of the waters of eternal life.
He made an open display unto the good works of the Father done in Him..here on earth. triumphing over the mind/head of the
serpent/death/sins sting.but it was all a small token of the POWER AND THE GLORY AND THE LOVE OF THE FATHER TO US....
....and the fullness of it is near at the door!!!!!!!!!!
I think those who die as unbelievers will be raised and judged before the great white throne and then cast into the lake of fire which is the second death (Revelation 20:14). That means they'll be dead, not conscious to be punished or tormented, but they'll be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26). I know some folks here believe there will be some kind of conscious correction in the lake of fire, but I don't believe that. I think the judgment referred to in Matthew 25:31-46 is of the nations for how they treated the Jews, and it comes a thousand years before the great white throne judgment of individual sinners.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil027.html
Quote from: Tom on April 19, 2015, 03:08:57 AM
I think those who die as unbelievers will be raised and judged before the great white throne and then cast into the lake of fire which is the second death (Revelation 20:14). That means they'll be dead, not conscious to be punished or tormented, but they'll be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26). I know some folks here believe there will be some kind of conscious correction in the lake of fire, but I don't believe that. I think the judgment referred to in Matthew 25:31-46 is of the nations for how they treated the Jews, and it comes a thousand years before the great white throne judgment of individual sinners.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil027.html
I think this is the first depressing thing i have read here at tentmaker. I guess it's still better than eternal torture but this time last year i was an atheist so this kind of thing dont sit well with me. A book is not enough to get atheists to believe, been there done that. i was never into story books even if the story was real.
And what do you believe and why? I'm wondering what's depressing about it to you. The bottom line is that the "hell" we were all taught about is just a lie that's used to control people with fear, but the good news is that God really is love and will save all mankind. Some were chosen to have faith, and some weren't, but even unbelievers will eventually be saved from death at the consummation of the eons. All on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross, and God will be all in all. What's depressing about that?
Quote from: Tom on April 19, 2015, 04:23:41 PM
And what do you believe and why? I'm wondering what's depressing about it to you. The bottom line is that the "hell" we were all taught about is just a lie that's used to control people with fear, but the good news is that God really is love and will save all mankind. Some were chosen to have faith, and some weren't, but even unbelievers will eventually be saved from death at the consummation of the eons. All on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross, and God will be all in all. What's depressing about that?
Sorry, i made that post late last night i was a it tired and didn't read it properly. I thought you were saying that atheists would be annihilated in the lake of fire for not believing. But now i see that you are saying that even they will be immortalized at some point in time.
Amen, that's what the so called "good news" really is.
To me it seems people on this forum have different understanding on hell and what to do with the word hell, whether to toss it out or see it as what we're going through now. For me hell as a place of fire and endless torture forever is total fiction and this is the hell that is preached about in church and what most people say they believe in. It needs to be thrown out of our vocabulary because there is no such place. The words hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus in the new testament and sheol in the old are obviously not forever torture in fire. We need to retrain our minds to see them for what they are. Also the lake of fire has taken me quite a while to come to a satisfactory understanding of what if means, but it is for our good to burn up what is not of God. "Our God is a consuming fire."
Peter Hiett has a short video here on the lake of fire which might be good to watch. www.youtube.com/watch?v=F27jxwHDrzM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F27jxwHDrzM)
The image of fire being a symbol for spiritual things has a long tradition in the scripture. I believe the same goes for fire in the parables and prophetic writings of the New Testament. The same Christ who gave John the image of a lake of fire is the Christ who inspired Isaiah (chapter 9) to say that wickedness burns like a fire to the raising of a column of smoke. And there are many other scriptures that bear out sinfulness represented by heat and fire. I see it as symbolic and I don't think God is going burn people with literal fire. God has a long tradition throughout the Bible of letting people experience the negative results of their own actions as a judgement that causes them to repent.
I can accept there is no Hell, period. Tom makes good sense. What I'm getting from these answers is, there's no consensus, the Bible says the dead know nothing and the rest is speculation.
Something I read recently was advocating our only "hell" is that which we go through as a result of our sinful acts, i.e. our broken lives. If that's true, it's applied capriciously which doesn't sound like God at all and that bothers me.
Since I decided to be more open minded about alternate Christian beliefs, to try and decipher truth, oh Lord, what a mountain of confusion.
Jerry
Quote from: GerWat on April 20, 2015, 06:49:59 AM
Something I read recently was advocating our only "hell" is that which we go through as a result of our sinful acts, i.e. our broken lives. If that's true, it's applied capriciously which doesn't sound like God at all and that bothers me.
Hi Jerry can you explain what you mean by that?
Quote from: GerWat on April 20, 2015, 06:49:59 AM
I can accept there is no Hell, period. Tom makes good sense. What I'm getting from these answers is, there's no consensus, the Bible says the dead know nothing and the rest is speculation.
Dear Jerry,
I believe there is consciousness and not a state of "suspended unconsciousness" as it were...
37 Now that the dead are rousing, even Moses divulges at the thorn bush, as he is terming the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." 38 Now God is He,
not of the dead, but of the
living, for
all, to Him, are living."
The wicked shall pass into an age-long pruning...
"These shall go away into age-long pruning" (or "...age-lasting chastisement").
I believe these two states are clearly described [without any reason for twisting it] by Christ when He relates what happens in His story showing Lazarus and the rich man dying.
I personally give more credence to New Testament instruction as to me it is on a higher level of revelation as the Old, as man builds on his past lessons.
Peace.
Hell is the graves, the hades unseen, and the gehenna fire is for corrective purposes
all the old bible translations mainly KING JAMES calls them all Hell
and that is a misuse of terms , Like Bushy said they bring fear for the lack of understanding the terms and uses in Gods plan
rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH A Worker Pleasing to God
14 ·Continue teaching [L Remind them of] these things, ·warning people [L solemnly testifying/declaring] in God's presence not to ·argue [quarrel] about words. It ·does not help anyone [is good for nothing], and it ruins those who listen. 15 ·Make every effort [Do your best; Be diligent] to ·give [present] yourself to God as the kind of person he will approve. Be a worker who ·is not ashamed [or will not be shamed] and who ·uses the true teaching in the right way [correctly handles the true message/word of truth; or holds carefully to the true message/word of truth].
16 Stay away from ·foolish, useless talk [godless/irreverent chatter; 1 Tim. 1:3–4; 4:7; 6:20], because that will lead people ·further away from God [into even more ungodliness].
17 Their evil teaching will spread like ·a sickness inside the body [L gangrene]. Hymenaeus [1 Tim. 1:20] and Philetus are like that [C probably false teachers and opponents of Paul from Ephesus].
18 They have ·left [strayed away from] the ·true teaching [truth], saying that the ·rising from the dead [resurrection] has already taken place, and so they are ·destroying [undermining; overturning] the faith of some people.
Jesus is the resurrection and Life and is always and in the now present time Jesus is always and we must prepare ourselves and share with others for this opportunity to meet the Lord Jesus
19 But God's strong foundation continues to stand, ·sealed [inscribed; engraved] with these words: "The Lord knows those who belong to him [Num. 16:5]," and "Everyone who ·wants to belong to [L names the name of] the Lord must ·stop doing wrong [L turn away from wickedess/injustice]."
The letter of the law that kills is the same Spirit Jesus told those wanting to bring fire down from heaven and destroy the city not accepting of Jesus the WORD OF LIFE , JESUS COME TO GIVE LIFE from the dead those dead by sin and trespass or dead from the letter of the law that kills for God is not the God of the dead but the living , many err because they dont understand what this means
Jesus is the Lord of the dead and living still raising the dead to Life in Him and if Lifted up will draw all men to Him
romans 14 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God....
From Seth: "Something I read recently was advocating our only "hell" is that which we go through as a result of our sinful acts, i.e. our broken lives. If that's true, it's applied capriciously which doesn't sound like God at all and that bothers me.
Hi Jerry can you explain what you mean by that?"
Hi Seth:
Consider this for instance. Something I found through a link on TM site: http://lovewins.us/560/why-bother-proclaiming-the-gospel/
"How much hell do you want others to go through? The love of Christ compels us. That is the urgency. People must be brought to repentance so they can experience the full redemption and deliverance which Christ died to give them. People will never be saved until they ARE saved. Does it not matter to you if your loved ones or neighbors live out their earthly lifetimes without the joy—and deliverance—that comes from knowing Jesus? What kind of environment do you desire in this world for your children? What about your grandchildren?"
WHAT's full redemption? WHAT'S deliverance? I know what joy is, I get that sometimes. Speaking of the environment of the world we live in, THANK GOD, it's improved gradually since the times of Jesus. Then people fought to the death for entertainment while orphans and widows starved to death. Today we rise in protest over every little injustice, some can't even stand to watch football.
I work with a bunch of guys who are quite content to not be bothered with God stuff. Their lives are, by all appearances, are better than many "Christians" I know. I envy their contentment. As a "Christian" I long for the Comforter but know Him not or not as I'd like, which makes me not-a-christian, I guess, and not content. THAT makes no Hell a kind of comfort to me, like sleeping with a rock for a pillow... or red hot gum. :flamebreath:
The news is full of innocent people who's bodies have been brutalized randomly and for no good reason. They live in pain and often die forgotten and alone having done nothing to deserve it while others, perhaps those who caused their hurt are happy, healthy and well loved.
The news is also full of guilty people who's bodies have been brutalized for good reason. Good. :punish:
Is Almighty God sovereign or not? If so why must our lives be so unpredictable?
If THIS is saved, what's the point? With a friend like God, who needs enemies?
God exists outside of time. So the reality of our salvation must extend to ages past and future.
So there are none lost, just those who don't know. And if they did know why would they change anything, I mean, unless they have plans to murder?
They still need to eat and in my experience that means one still needs to work.
Yet, I know that He is love, that He treats me as His child and, though I be thick as a post, someday I'll understand. :dontknow:
I suppose...
Meanwhile, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. :Pray:
How Then should we preach or witness? Shall I tell others what God has done for me? Left me frustrated and near mad in His silence?
"Why preach or witness if all are saved..." Maybe the thing to do is just help others as much as we can and in so doing make the world a better place...
Like so many people who never go to church because, well, maybe they get it better than many Christians. :sigh:
Quote from: GerWat on April 20, 2015, 11:33:31 PM
From Seth: "Something I read recently was advocating our only "hell" is that which we go through as a result of our sinful acts, i.e. our broken lives. If that's true, it's applied capriciously which doesn't sound like God at all and that bothers me.
Hi Jerry can you explain what you mean by that?"
Hi Seth:
Consider this for instance. Something I found through a link on TM site: http://lovewins.us/560/why-bother-proclaiming-the-gospel/
"How much hell do you want others to go through? The love of Christ compels us. That is the urgency. People must be brought to repentance so they can experience the full redemption and deliverance which Christ died to give them. People will never be saved until they ARE saved. Does it not matter to you if your loved ones or neighbors live out their earthly lifetimes without the joy—and deliverance—that comes from knowing Jesus? What kind of environment do you desire in this world for your children? What about your grandchildren?"
WHAT's full redemption? WHAT'S deliverance? I know what joy is, I get that sometimes. Speaking of the environment of the world we live in, THANK GOD, it's improved gradually since the times of Jesus. Then people fought to the death for entertainment while orphans and widows starved to death. Today we rise in protest over every little injustice, some can't even stand to watch football.
I work with a bunch of guys who are quite content to not be bothered with God stuff. Their lives are, by all appearances, are better than many "Christians" I know. I envy their contentment. As a "Christian" I long for the Comforter but know Him not or not as I'd like, which makes me not-a-christian, I guess, and not content. THAT makes no Hell a kind of comfort to me, like sleeping with a rock for a pillow... or red hot gum. :flamebreath:
The news is full of innocent people who's bodies have been brutalized randomly and for no good reason. They live in pain and often die forgotten and alone having done nothing to deserve it while others, perhaps those who caused their hurt are happy, healthy and well loved.
The news is also full of guilty people who's bodies have been brutalized for good reason. Good. :punish:
Is Almighty God sovereign or not? If so why must our lives be so unpredictable?
If THIS is saved, what's the point? With a friend like God, who needs enemies?
God exists outside of time. So the reality of our salvation must extend to ages past and future.
So there are none lost, just those who don't know. And if they did know why would they change anything, I mean, unless they have plans to murder?
They still need to eat and in my experience that means one still needs to work.
Yet, I know that He is love, that He treats me as His child and, though I be thick as a post, someday I'll understand. :dontknow:
I suppose...
Meanwhile, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. :Pray:
How Then should we preach or witness? Shall I tell others what God has done for me? Left me frustrated and near mad in His silence?
"Why preach or witness if all are saved..." Maybe the thing to do is just help others as much as we can and in so doing make the world a better place...
Like so many people who never go to church because, well, maybe they get it better than many Christians. :sigh:
So by reading that last post, I take it that by "applied capriciously" you meant that if "hell" or judgement refers to the negative fruit of sin in this life, some are affected by that and others don't seem to notice or care.
I believe that there is a future and final judgement coming. But I also believe that the symbol of Gehenna fire represents represents the negative results of sin upon the sinner. Only, what I believe is that this is not restricted to this life, that the final judgement will resemble the prodigal son parable.
In that way, while I do see the description of fire and death of the final judgement as symbolizing the fruit of sin, I don't see it as capriciously applied because I believe everyone who rejects the righteousness of God in this life will go through a necessary learning experience to come.
We are not going through so called "hell" here on earth. We're simply experiencing evil to humble us making us realize we need God to save us from it. It's actually a blessing in disguise, so to speak, because we need the contrast. We can't appreciate light without darkness. We can't appreciate love without hate. We can't appreciate good without evil. It's no fun when you're experiencing evil, but you're really happy when you finally get a break. Pain, hunger, poverty, sickness, drug addiction, extreme temperatures, loss of loved ones, loneliness, depression, lack of hope, fear, betrayal, loss of a job, loss of your home, the everyday grind of getting older with more aches and pains, slowly but surely dying, and other things that I've forgotten to mention all cause us to experience suffering temporarily until we get some relief, and then we experience extreme gratitude and love for God who saves us from the evil unless we're atheists because then we're clueless and think it's all meaningless. Yes, it's true that God is the source of the evil that causes us to suffer, but it's for our own good in the long run. That's why Adam and Eve were set up in the garden to experience evil because the knowledge of evil is what makes you really appreciate the good that God blesses you with. It's hard to understand that when you're in the midst of evil, but just trust God.
"Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, made all of these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
"I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." (Ecclesiastes 1:13)
"Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and do not lean to your own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)
"for by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthians 5:7)
"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
Quote from: TomPain, hunger, poverty, sickness, drug addiction, extreme temperatures, loss of loved ones, loneliness, depression, lack of hope, fear, betrayal, loss of a job, loss of your home, the everyday grind of getting older with more aches and pains, slowly but surely dying, and other things that I've forgotten to mention all cause us to experience suffering temporarily until we get some relief
I agree with you in your general words of encouragement, but in the above list of ills that befall man, I think they can be separated out. For example, aches and pains, extreme temperatures, loss of loved ones, loss of job may not be the result of what the Bible calls "pleasure in unrighteousness" whereas I can see that drug addiction and betrayal are.
Jesus tell us to avoid Gehenna. It is avoidable. While you and I may have a different view of it, I think the things which cannot be avoided, like aches and pains of age can be taken on by sons of God as opportunities to mature in the faith, whereas the ills of drug addiction are brought upon those who seek refuge in drugs. One causes growth, and the other causes destruction.
The good news, from my perspective, is that repentance comes through the destruction, but it's not a route one should want to take, especially after coming into full knowledge of the truth. I would consider drug addiction to be a kind of hell on earth. I've seen enough of what it does to people which is why I see it that way, whereas the kinds of hardships that try our faith, I see as opportunities to be embraced.
I believe there are many traps and snares , and this is why we are warned of them and take examples from the old testament hardships ,
in the suffering Israel went though , its is for our benefit .
Paul speaks of the temptations in 1 Corth 10 that God can and does help us out of ,Just as He did Israel .
The scriptures speaks of fiery trials that come upon us to test our faith and proving Gods deliverance .
This should make us ashamed for doubting and increase our faith in Gods power .
I have seen a drug addict delivered out of that kind of bondage to sin .
He is a compassionate preacher today .
I also see some dying with overdose in our neighbouring Louisville Ky area on heroine .
These are in their 30's middle ages
And in Southern Indiana there is now an HIV epidemic of almost 100 infected since Dec of 2014
Every one has a story and experience of what doing good and doing evil can bring upon themselves and family mortal members or the family of God .
But there is suffering for sin sickness and there is sufferings of Christ , those innocent ones helping and doing good and are serving their fellowman ,
labouring in loving God, as family .
God knows all our hearts and the motives of the hearts , that to me, is the key as to why things work out sometimes the way they do .
Sometimes Gods mercy to me only , as I can see it , is to free them from mortality corruption and further decay .
I am not convinced yet that only in this life and in our mortal bodies is the only time you can cry out to God to save , as many , many preachers teach :sigh:
Nor am I convinced that sin and error and trespass is all our own doing .
I think all the things referred to are evil. I personally experienced all the ones I mentioned, and I said I probably forgot to mention some. I don't agree with the idea of "hell" on earth because it just feeds the lie that "hell" is about suffering of some kind while scripture says no such thing. I believe the Old English word "hell," from the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," is simply the unseen state of dead souls. You can try to break down different manifestations of evil into whatever categories you want, but I think they're all still evil we suffer in this wicked eon which we won't have to suffer anymore when we're immortalized. I agree Christ warned about Gehenna, but that's because the Jews considered it to be a dishonorable means of disposing a body after death. I've said before that Gehenna is a real geographical location, a ravine, outside the wall of Jerusalem that I've read was once used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to the Ammonite god, Moloch, and then as the city dump of Jerusalem where corpses of executed criminals were burned and will be again in the next eon, and I believe that's what Christ was warning about. Burning dead bodies is different than claiming to burn so called immortal souls forever. The problem is that Gehenna was intentionally confused with "hell" in the Douay Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version twelve times in the New Testament to deceive people with the fear of being tortured in fire forever. "Hell" is a lie that the Catholic Church and Protestant Church have used to control people with irrational fear instead of teaching the truth that God is the savior of all mankind, and all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all.
The lie is that "hell" is an afterlife place of conscious literal torment in fire forever. But to say that "hell" is the suffering due to our own actions is a denial of such a place and redefines the terms. I believe Gehenna represents that judgment, not that it is actually "hell" as understood by orthodox Christiianity.
Quote from: Seth on April 21, 2015, 04:55:21 PM
The lie is that "hell" is an afterlife place of conscious literal torment in fire forever. But to say that "hell" is the suffering due to our own actions is a denial of such a place and redefines the terms. I believe Gehenna represents that judgment, not that it is actually "hell" as understood by orthodox Christiianity.
It is ongoing in the sense that lawlessness increases and the rotting corpses of mortal men have always from the time of the valley of Hinnom to Gehenna are the in same place where the carrion is so will the dead bodies be
Jesus refers to this place of ''punishment '' as the worm dies not and fire is not quenched , it is a ever on going example of sin = death though the ages
Even the law of the land exercises judgment for evil doing
Quote from: Tom on April 21, 2015, 04:46:42 PM
I think all the things referred to are evil. I personally experienced all the ones I mentioned, and I said I probably forgot to mention some. I don't agree with the idea of "hell" on earth because it just feeds the lie that "hell" is about suffering of some kind while scripture says no such thing. I believe the Old English word "hell," from the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," is simply the unseen state of dead souls. You can try to break down different manifestations of evil into whatever categories you want, but I think they're all still evil we suffer in this wicked eon which we won't have to suffer anymore when we're immortalized. I agree Christ warned about Gehenna, but that's because the Jews considered it to be a dishonorable means of disposing a body after death. I've said before that Gehenna is a real geographical location, a ravine, outside the wall of Jerusalem that I've read was once used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to the Ammonite god, Moloch, and then as the city dump of Jerusalem where corpses of executed criminals were burned and will be again in the next eon, and I believe that's what Christ was warning about. Burning dead bodies is different than claiming to burn so called immortal souls forever. The problem is that Gehenna was intentionally confused with "hell" in the Douay Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version twelve times in the New Testament to deceive people with the fear of being tortured in fire forever. "Hell" is a lie that the Catholic Church and Protestant Church have used to control people with irrational fear instead of teaching the truth that God is the savior of all mankind, and all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all.
The on going problem of sin / lawlessness Eph 5 expose them
Those things done in the darkness to keep those from entering the Light :dsunny:
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2015, 05:15:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on April 21, 2015, 04:55:21 PM
The lie is that "hell" is an afterlife place of conscious literal torment in fire forever. But to say that "hell" is the suffering due to our own actions is a denial of such a place and redefines the terms. I believe Gehenna represents that judgment, not that it is actually "hell" as understood by orthodox Christiianity.
It is ongoing in the sense that lawlessness increases and the rotting corpses of mortal men have always from the time of the valley of Hinnom to Gehenna are the in same place where the carrion is so will the dead bodies be
Jesus refers to this place of "punishment " as the worm dies not and fire is not quenched , it is a ever on going example of sin = death though the ages
Even the law of the land exercises judgment for evil doing
Yes, to descended from the higher place into a valley speaks volumes metaphorically.
Quote from: Seth on April 21, 2015, 05:35:49 PM
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2015, 05:15:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on April 21, 2015, 04:55:21 PM
The lie is that "hell" is an afterlife place of conscious literal torment in fire forever. But to say that "hell" is the suffering due to our own actions is a denial of such a place and redefines the terms. I believe Gehenna represents that judgment, not that it is actually "hell" as understood by orthodox Christiianity.
It is ongoing in the sense that lawlessness increases and the rotting corpses of mortal men have always from the time of the valley of Hinnom to Gehenna are the in same place where the carrion is so will the dead bodies be
Jesus refers to this place of "punishment " as the worm dies not and fire is not quenched , it is a ever on going example of sin = death though the ages
Even the law of the land exercises judgment for evil doing
Yes, to descended from the higher place into a valley speaks volumes metaphorically.
Well put you two!
Rose, keep up the great posts.
Seth, I have added that last line to my folder of favorite quotes.
Thanks,
Pat
Quote from: GerWat on April 18, 2015, 11:07:01 PM
In the writings on Tentmaker, sometimes it is declared there is no Hell :punish:, other times it's not eternal or it's not what we've been taught. WTH?
I'm down with UR :thumbsup: and the possibility of Hell as a kind of Purgatory. :sigh: Even better if Life is Purgatory and Hell is what we make of life on Earth.
So I guess it comes down, we might get punished after death, for time at least, or not. :dontknow:
Does the Bible give us any definitive answers to clarify? I suppose there's a "book" by Gary A. If so point me in the right direction.
Jerry
I think the 'punishment' spoken of referring to believers is to be "caught unawares" in latter days, not knowing the signs of His coming.. His wheat (from the parable, Mt 13) is "gathered into His barn" (1 Thess 4:16,17) "and the tares/weeds are gathered to be burned, so shall it be at the end of the age".. 2 gatherings(rev 14)
gathered to Armageddon(rev 16:14-16)..
Rev 20:14 -
KJV - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Young's Literal - "And the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;
Concordant Version - "And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire."
We can see that if hades, translated hell, is thrown into the LOF, then the LOF cannot be 'hell' - so if there be a fiery hell/hades/death, it is at best (worst!) temporary..
It depends, imo, in large part upon what one sees as "hades-the place of the dead".. Is it a state of life after death, or death as an alternate form of life? Or is the place of the dead still sheol where "there is no knowing nor doing"? i.e., the grave.. (Eccles 9:10, and in this case, actually translated as "the grave" in the KJ,etc)
You probably know that "gehenna" was the city dump where even the corpses of criminals were burned about which Jesus said "it's better your hand be cast into than you offend one of these little ones and your whole body cast into" - Mark 9:42-43 (Strong's #
1067)
"
tartarus" is a place, and/or state of deep darkness where angels who left their place are locked into for judgment.. Strong's #
5020-"abyss" (does not mention fire)
KJ Version - "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment"
Young's Literal - "For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved"
"outer darkness" is separation from God where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth..
"
hellfire" also gehenna, as "Hinnom" the valley of, where the battle of Armageddon will occur.. fiery judgment (upon earth/this life) Strong's greek
#1067"the gates of hell".. brought down to hell" is the Greek word "hades" Strong's
#86, "place of the dead" and, or the unseen (according to Greek theory)
In the concordance under "hell" there is these three translated as `hell`- (1)-#86 "hades place or realm of the dead, imho, still the grave/sheol of the Old Testament, (2)-#1067 "hinnom valley", and (3)-#5020 "tartarus/abyss" in relation to rebel angels, no mention of fire..In the Old testament, there's only one (translated as `hell') -
sheol Strong's #7585 - said to be 'hades'
but Ecclesiastes 9:10 which originally uses "
sheol" says -
Young's Literal "All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going."
King James "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
New International Version " Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (nada/none)
:smile: :Peace2:
I believe "hell" is simply the Old English word used in the King James Version to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls, and "Gehenna" is only associated with "hell" due to the forgery perpetrated in the King James Version and the Douay Rheims Catholic Version. "Gehenna" never should have been translated "hell" because "Gehenna" is a completely different word representing a completely different thought which is simply the city dump of Jerusalem used to burn the corpses of executed criminals in the past as Isaiah 66:23,24 says it will also be used in the next "eon." The only reason the church intentionally mistranslated "Gehenna" as "hell" was to give the false impression that so called immortal souls would be tortured in fire there forever which is a lie. That forgery plus the mistranslation of the Greek "aion," literally "eon," and it's adjective "aionion," literally "eonian," also give a false impression that the lie of so called immortal souls being tortured in fire in "Gehenna," mistranslated as "hell," would last forever because "aionion" was translated as "eternal" rather than "eonian." An "eon" is a period of time with a beginning and an end. The adjective of a period of time does not describe endless time. So "aionion" should not be translated "eternal." Scripture speaks of "eonian life" not "eternal life." I believe only God is "eternal" because he had no beginning and will always be. Believers in mankind are blessed with "eonian life" not "eternal life." I believe that believers will be given immortality when we're snatched away, and Christ meets us in the air. I believe that unbelievers will not be tortured in fire in "Gehenna" or in "hell" because they will simply be dead in "the lake of fire" which scripture says is "the second death" from which they will be brought back to life and given immortality at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. That's when God will be all in all which is the true ultimate plan of God. Torture in fire forever is Satan's lie that unfortunately is propagated by the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church. Even though I know the word "hell" is used figuratively by people to mean any evil that they experience even while they're alive, it's only because the word "hell" has been distorted by orthodox theology to mean suffering, but an accurate translation of scripture doesn't say that. It's simply the "unseen" state of dead souls. I believe that believers as well as unbelievers are simply "unseen" and figuratively sleeping until they will be resurrected, believers first when Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers at the consummation of the eons.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html
QuoteEven though I know the word "hell" is used figuratively by people to mean any evil that they experience even while they're alive, it's only because the word "hell" has been distorted by orthodox theology to mean suffering, but an accurate translation of scripture doesn't say that.
Apart from a literal interpretation of Gehenna, I believe all the same things you just talked about. It's already understood that Hell is a mythical place, but when I saw Gary write that hell is what we experience in life on earth as I was searching the scriptures about UR I understood what he meant. He meant that the myth of hell took people's minds off of the suffering that occurs around us in favor of emphasizing a mythical place. He was using a turn of phrase to bring that to light and I thought it was a good point. It didn't confuse me one bit as a seeker.
..it's true religion/belief and worldview, has pretty much always been used to "control the people". For whatever reason, the hell doctrine has come about, I believe it greatly blasphemes God's holy character.. And i know it very efficiently covers and hides the truth.. After almost 2000 years of being handed down thru human hands, and of being made up of humans, it's not really surprising that Christianity has lost some of the glory of its message, and has also picked up some baggage along the way. Thank the LORD for His Word..! :HeartThrob:
MUCH ado about semantics. Enough already! :doh:
Call it what you will, we suffer because of our sin, in this life, maybe even after. It matters not, as long as it doesn't last forever.
Good discussion... I think. Maybe I think too much, that's how I get in trouble.
Well the post "Clarification" seems will always be as EW is fond of saying
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
For which clarification is always blurry, murky, muddy as we journey in His Word. :2c:
Quote from: GerWat on April 22, 2015, 05:28:18 PM
MUCH ado about semantics. Enough already! :doh:
Call it what you will, we suffer because of our sin, in this life, maybe even after. It matters not, as long as it doesn't last forever.
Good discussion... I think. Maybe I think too much, that's how I get in trouble.
Good thread.
Thanks for sharing.
I just don't worry about the hereafter. I really don't know that there is going to be one. It is faith. In faith I trust that the loving God will take care of things hereafter just fine.
God has always dealt with me in love. God is love. In judgement, God will still be love and be with us the whole time. How can we not trust?
:thumbsup:
"...Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed"
I am led to believe that in the degree that certainty is in the place of faith,
the gladness that is to come would be hindered by that degree.
The faith that makes the certainty is better
because darkness is ruled out altogether by the light,
and sorrow is burnt up by the joy which is of God.
In my opinion.
Quote from: GerWat on April 18, 2015, 11:07:01 PM
In the writings on Tentmaker, sometimes it is declared there is no Hell :punish:, other times it's not eternal or it's not what we've been taught. WTH?
I'm down with UR :thumbsup: and the possibility of Hell as a kind of Purgatory. :sigh: Even better if Life is Purgatory and Hell is what we make of life on Earth.
So I guess it comes down, we might get punished after death, for time at least, or not. :dontknow:
Does the Bible give us any definitive answers to clarify? I suppose there's a "book" by Gary A. If so point me in the right direction.
Jerry
To answer the other part of your question, does the Bible give definitive answers I believe so. You asked if "we" get punished after death, and I believe that is a "no" for the faithful to Christ and his commandment to love. But is "yes" for those who "believe not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" as the Bible puts it.
My reasoning is here: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
Quote from: Seth on April 22, 2015, 09:25:34 PM
Quote from: GerWat on April 18, 2015, 11:07:01 PM
In the writings on Tentmaker, sometimes it is declared there is no Hell :punish:, other times it's not eternal or it's not what we've been taught. WTH?
I'm down with UR :thumbsup: and the possibility of Hell as a kind of Purgatory. :sigh: Even better if Life is Purgatory and Hell is what we make of life on Earth.
So I guess it comes down, we might get punished after death, for time at least, or not. :dontknow:
Does the Bible give us any definitive answers to clarify? I suppose there's a "book" by Gary A. If so point me in the right direction.
Jerry
To answer the other part of your question, does the Bible give definitive answers I believe so. You asked if "we" get punished after death, and I believe that is a "no" for the faithful to Christ and his commandment to love. But is "yes" for those who "believe not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" as the Bible puts it.
My reasoning is here: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I second that! :smile: a thing about the "letters to the seven churches" is the letter to the church of Philadelphia-(Greek, "brotherly love") is the one which says "will keep you from the hour of trial coming upon the earth to test" (try/discipline) "all" (Rev 3:10) and there's not a rebuke (but a warning when He comes He comes quickly, hold fast what you have..)
"Love is the fulfilling of the law" .."works no ill.." surely it is by loving Him, that one "receives grace" to love their fellow person..
"But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat his fellow servants.. ..the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of.. ..There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." from Mt 24:48-51
Philadelphia/brotherly love..
"straight is the way and narrow the gate".. the new testament letters warned over and over, and said to watch out for two "enemies" - legalists and libertines.. the two L's - different from the true L - Love.
:thumbsup:
I do believe in necessary correction, punishment before and or after death. Only until a person is able to surrender all to God. Love God with all there heart and soul, forgive everyone and love everyone. No pride is allowed in Heaven as all our righteousness is from Christ alone. We need to accept His grace before we can enter.
Jesus said many will say to me Lord, Lord, didn't we do this and that in your name?...They think they deserve eternal life,.none of us do, we need to humbley accept His gift. :2c:
ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!
The Sumerians believed in Hell...but Abraham didn't!
The Egyptians believed in Hell...but Moses didn't!
Because almost ALL bible translators believed in Hell, they translated Gehenna to mean Hell!
The greek word therefor would be actually HADES!
The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."
Deuteronomy 4:24
"for our "God is a consuming fire."
Hebrews 12:29
The German word HELL cromes from the Hela godess, ruler of the Scandinavian underworld!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00_o1arKeIA
The bible has no place known as "Hell" They just tried to FIT it there!
The Hebrew word Sheol literally means THE GRAVE!
Quote from: JonesHenry on May 03, 2015, 04:39:04 AM
ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!
The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."
Deuteronomy 4:24
"for our "God is a consuming fire."
Hebrews 12:29
If God is a consuming fire, what does His fire consume? It consumes our wood, hay, and stubble, leaving the gold, silver, and precious stones. Those who have more of the former, and less of the latter, will suffer loss - but they will be saved as through the selfsame Fire. I think few of us will escape some loss... :2c:
I didn't mention the word "hell"....but there are many people who die knowing nothing of the Truth, or maybe are filled with hate or pride or someother sins....some of us learn more here some after. God is just..we all must learn submission. No sin will enter. None of us die perfect, etheir. But I think if we can surrender all to Him He will give us His mercy and righteousness. The Bible does speak about punishments quite a bit...there only for our ultimate good though. Perfect love casts out fear. He knows what He is doing and He is in control. We must forgive and love all, or it could never be Heaven. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 03, 2015, 04:55:45 AM
Quote from: JonesHenry on May 03, 2015, 04:39:04 AM
ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!
The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."
Deuteronomy 4:24
"for our "God is a consuming fire."
Hebrews 12:29
If God is a consuming fire, what does His fire consume? It consumes our wood, hay, and stubble, leaving the gold, silver, and precious stones. Those who have more of the former, and less of the latter, will suffer loss - but they will be saved as through the selfsame Fire. I think few of us will escape some loss... :2c:
I agree. Here's some fiery loss, and I wouldn't want to be purified in this way:
Deuteronomy 4
23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee.
24
For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
To me this explains why the wrath of God should be avoided but still results in repentance and salvation. To me, we should want to avoid being devoured in that way but it doesn't mean it wouldn't work like a charm if we were.
Yet I do not believe that the faithful are appointed to be devoured such, because they aren't appointed to wrath.
Quotebecause they aren't appointed to wrath.
I think you should check out a Christian minister called Steve Macvey, and hes sermon of "grace walk"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rPO3e0gUtU
Steve is
VERY GOOD with hes greek!
The greek words for "wrath" in the book of Revelation are Orge and Thumos
Actually they
BOTH mean
GREAT PASSION! We just know the word Orge through our well known word
ORGASM!It basicly means "to grab onto something"
I think most men here know very well
WHY :laugh:
Gods
WRATH is a fiery passion! But to us humans it must really look like
HELL!!!
Quote from: JonesHenry on May 03, 2015, 04:39:04 AM
ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!
The Sumerians believed in Hell...but Abraham didn't!
The Egyptians believed in Hell...but Moses didn't!
Because almost ALL bible translators believed in Hell, they translated Gehenna to mean Hell!
The greek word therefor would be actually HADES!
The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."
Deuteronomy 4:24
"for our "God is a consuming fire."
Hebrews 12:29
The German word HELL cromes from the Hela godess, ruler of the Scandinavian underworld!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00_o1arKeIA
The bible has no place known as "Hell" They just tried to FIT it there!
The Hebrew word Sheol literally means THE GRAVE!
:iagree: :iagree: Amen, amen!! I 100% agree with all of that! And I loved how you said it!
..it's my belief His purifying fire is also in experience.. "all salted with fire", and I also believe the culmination and final outcome, results, etc of human history, will be a purifying fire.. "he comes in fire with his angels.. the sheep and goats / wheat in my barn, but tares gathered to be burned.. gathered to armageddon.." (2 Th 1:7;Mt 25:32;Mt 13:30;Rev 16:14-16)
Quote from: Caffus on May 03, 2015, 06:14:15 AM
We must forgive and love all, or it could never be Heaven. :HeartThrob:
:banana: :iagree: :dsunny: :iagree: Amen! :)
Quote from: marie glen on May 03, 2015, 03:39:55 PM
Quote from: JonesHenry on May 03, 2015, 04:39:04 AM
ALL ancient people believed in Hell...a fiery demonic place controlled by Demons...EXCEPT the Hebrews!
The Sumerians believed in Hell...but Abraham didn't!
The Egyptians believed in Hell...but Moses didn't!
Because almost ALL bible translators believed in Hell, they translated Gehenna to mean Hell!
The greek word therefor would be actually HADES!
The Bible describes "Hell" as being gods Holy, purifying presence!
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."
Deuteronomy 4:24
"for our "God is a consuming fire."
Hebrews 12:29
The German word HELL cromes from the Hela godess, ruler of the Scandinavian underworld!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00_o1arKeIA
The bible has no place known as "Hell" They just tried to FIT it there!
The Hebrew word Sheol literally means THE GRAVE!
:iagree: :iagree: Amen, amen!! I 100% agree with all of that! And I loved how you said it!
..it's my belief His purifying fire is also in experience.. "all salted with fire", and I also believe the culmination and final outcome, results, etc of human history, will be a purifying fire.. "he comes in fire with his angels.. the sheep and goats / wheat in my barn, but tares gathered to be burned.. gathered to armageddon.." (2 Th 1:7;Mt 25:32;Mt 13:30;Rev 16:14-16)
Good stuff to consider Marie and JonesHenry !!
I thought of David declaring Gods presence is everywhere and in everyone Psalm 139 ; 8 You have Searched Me and Know Me
...7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,...
Gods presence is ever before us
Love it you brought up the ''salted with fire ''' Marie
I cannot help but think of Jesus words about lots wife ''turning into a pillar of salt '' when looking back at Sodom and Gomorrah .
Jesus uses , the example of lots wife as nameless , yet the wife of Lots youth as a part of him , the '' woman come out of man and made for man /helpmeet ''
and'' salt'' in meaning is to be '''humbled ''' though he escaped the fire , it was only by Gods help and sending angels to '' minister to him''
and Jesus uses this example in ''remember Lots wife '' in those wanting to save their lives loose them and those whom loose their ''lives /wives / soulish'' part of humanity ? that rules the heart ? this soul/ wives /lives '' exchange'''
is having the the life/soul seat of emotions '' of Christ instead '' in Luke 17
the Woman /true church /body of Christ is His soul /life that comes out of Jesus Christ as the offering , exchange gave it up for GODS DESIRE to be done , was this not Israel for a time ? till the fulness of the Gentiles /all other nations to come in also ?
He shall see his soul and be satisfied [Isaiah 53 ]A Grave Assigned
...10But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11
As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.
now Luke 17
31 "On that day, a person who is on the roof [C roofs were typically flat and used as extra rooms] and whose belongings are in the house should not ·go inside [L come down] to get them. A person who is in the field should not ·go back home [L turn back].
32
Remember Lot's wife [C who was judged for longingly looking back at Sodom; Gen. 19:15–17, 26]. 33 Those who try to ·keep [preserve; keep secure] their lives will lose them.
But those who ·give up [lose; let go of] their lives will save them. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be sleeping in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 There will be two women grinding grain together; one will be taken, and the other will be left. |36 Two people will be in the field. One will be taken, and the other will be left.|"
37 ·The followers [L They] asked Jesus, "·Where will this be [L Where], Lord?"
Jesus answered, "Where there is a ·dead body [corpse], there the vultures will gather [C the carnage will make the place of judgment obvious to all]."
Throughout the time of the beginning to the end of days in the natural lives / souls of men have been made an example of to what , they gave up for God or did not give up for God being ''the Kingdom of God ''
Life and death are in the tongue /peoples and nations , past present and future ... all generations are before Him ..........
many peoples tongues & nations Rev 17
14"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
15And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
16"And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire....
what is the souls of man are the harlot soul that come out of man and made them kings of the earth ?
It makes great sense to me when considering it as a simple truth throughout the ages of mankind .. :Book:
Quote from: rosered on May 03, 2015, 06:09:55 PM
many peoples tongues & nations Rev 17
14"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
15And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
16"And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire....
what is the souls of man are the harlot soul that come out of man and made them kings of the earth ?
It makes great sense to me when considering it as a simple truth throughout the ages of mankind .. :Book:
..."a simple truth throughout the ages of mankind.." :iagree: :iagree: I so agree! I think this proving of good over evil is the same lesson of every person's life and is also the lesson of mankind's history as a whole.. the same story over and over.. and of every age..
Every age man has built his kingdoms atop God's glorious creation, til people do not even see God's glorious creation any more, but are anchored in man's world, as though it were "real" and lasting.. instead of so highly temporary!
And what a paradox, that what man creates (the world empires and governings built on sand, and the peak of it, gone global) will destroy and devour what man has created which also has gone global and has seduced all the world - imo, at this age, socialism(government) will finally devour capitalism, which went "pornos" the greek of harlot and mesmerized and enchanted all seven continents of the world.. hence man's own creations destroyed by man's own creation.. What better or wiser way for our all wise Father to prove to all, in heaven and earth, finally and forever, how life apart from His Will is, simply, not do-able, but always can only crash and burn.. And this is an eternal truth, both individually and collectively.
And praise God! "of the increase of HiS government and peace there shall be no end.." All, I believe, will fully understand the simple lesson of good from evil, which is also, I believe, life from death.. and how there is only one Governor.. one King.. one Kingdom.. None others - including self (kingdom) - simply can never endure.. all built on sand.. The simple lesson that God is Life, and any other thing is death and nonlife.. and can't work, never can work.. And one's own armageddon, and the world's armageddon, is the unveiling that will thoroughly convince the world of sin/good from evil/life from nonlife/light from darkness/true from untrue..
Quote from: rosered on May 03, 2015, 06:09:55 PM
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,...
Gods presence is ever before us
Amen and praise Him.. He is Perfect and Perfection. I personally do not believe it is possible for Him to lose any thing/
any one.. He desires that none should perish.. to be testified to in due time.. each in his own order, Christ the firstfruits, afterward those at His coming.. & then when He delivers the kingdom to the Father.. Whither can we go from His Presence / Salvation..?
:smile: :dsunny: :banana: