OWLAM OLAM OLAWM

[Seth]

When I look at the scripture I see parts that fit together. For example:

"And this is life eonian, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

So I ask myself, does simply being alive and conscious ("literally alive") mean that I know God? I don't think so, and the Bible says this:

1 John 4:6-7
You dear children are from God and and have overcome them because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and the world listens to them. We are from God and whoever knows God listens to us but whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

The very fact that someone can be literally alive and still not know God is a big clue to me that eonian life is not being made literally alive (conscious and self aware), but is an indwelling of Christ. Some know God and some don't, but everybody is literally alive. So there must be another kind of life indwelling by which we may understand the division John is talking about.

If all someone needs is to be conscious and animated to know God, then we don't need faith to know him, and thus EVERYONE would know God already who is physically alive. Eonian life is God according to the scripture, and according to John those who are murders do not have eonian life within them. What else is within Christ's followers but the Holy Spirit. God is that life.

It is eonian because it applies to the eons. Are we living in an eon today? Of course. So that takes care of that. Is God eonian life? The Bible says so and that is how we know him, by being born of him.

That is why in the end it says that death will be destroyed, when God is all in all. All IN (within) all. God within everyone. Then, everyone will know God because everyone will have his life indwelling, and that is how they will know they have passed from death to life because they love each other. Thus, all death is destroyed through both immortality and the indwelling of the Spirit.

[Psalm91:4]

 :iagree:  lastpost & Seth

And I luv you Tom even tho we see this a lil differently!  :)
  I think some of us are just basically saying because Christ/His Spirit indwells us even now...that we have that life in Him now, too.  Not just later on. 

Maybe this understanding can be included in the "especially of believers."  Like how He is saving us even in this age/lifetime by His very Life.

[Tom]

I was just going back through the thread. I agree that "eonian life" is different from "immortality," but I'm thinking about how considering the literal "definition" of "eonian life" to be "knowledge of God through spirit" or "to know God and to be in God" could be a problem when unbelievers are vivified at the consummation of the eons, and God will be all in all. That would obviously give them "knowledge of God through spirit" "to know God and to be in God" because God is spirit, God will be all in all, and all is out of God, through God, and into God, but they wouldn't have "eonian life." If you think unbelievers will eventually have "eonian life," I can't think of any scripture that says that, but scripture does say that Christ has been vivified, and all of mankind will be vivified at two different times which happens to unbelievers at the end of the eons. Only believers are promised "eonian life" which I think is the life we will experience while unbelievers are dead. Our life doesn't end when the eons end because we will have been immortalized. Even unbelievers will be immortalized then, but the eons will have been ended. So all mankind will be living without death, but there will be no more "eonian life" because there will be no more eons. It seems there will be some unfaithful in the next eon because I believe that's when executed criminals will be executed and have their corpses burned in Gehenna, but I think the great white throne judgment happens at the end of that eon which will result in all the unfaithful being cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. So all the unbelievers will be dead during the eon of the eons, the final eon, when there is said to be a new creation, while believers experience eonian life for however long that eons lasts. So I don't see how there's a way to say unbelievers will somehow get "eonian life" which is what the bottom line is if you say the "definition" of "eonian life" is "knowledge of God through spirit" or "to know God and to be in God." I believe that those who die as unbelievers will eventually be just as blessed as we will be after the eons, but they will be dead during our "eonian life." So they will not experience "eonian life." I hope all this doesn't just confuse the issue. I'm typing this while squinting through a splitting headache. The Adversary seems to be working overtime on me for the last few days with this sickness. I think there's a lot of confusion about "eonian life," and much of it is because of the mistranslation as "eternal life." I don't think the phrase means an infinite time span or even endless life after a certain point because scripture says the eons will end, but our life won't. I believe it simply means life sometime during the eons, but I think it specifically applies to the life we believers will have while unbelievers will be dead. I do not believe figurative interpretations of "eonian life" are "definitions" of it that can be used to invalidate the obvious "definition" of the phrase which is evident by the "definition" of the words in the phrase itself. The word "eonian" is the adjective of an "eon," a period of time. So whatever comes next is relevant to something about a period of time. What comes next is "life." So I think it's logical to say that "eonian life" must be "life" during the "eon." As I continue to read through the posts in the thread, I keep seeing it said that figurative interpretations are "definitions." I think that is only true in a figurative sense even though the impression I'm getting is that the figurative interpretations are considered to be literal "definitions," and, as I've mentioned, that causes a problem down the road when unbelievers will finally "know God." I don't agree that one doesn't need to "interpret" scripture because a figurative interpretation is considered to be a literal "definition." I didn't say "immortality" and "eonian life" are the same, but I think believers will have "immortality" during "eonian life" and beyond while unbelievers will not have "eonian life," but will have "immortality" at the end of the eons. I hope this helps to clarify my perspective.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Seth]

I just want to clarify myself that I didn't say that interpretation is never necessary. And I agree that eonian life and immortality are not the same. In order to know whether or not unbelievers will receive eonian life we need to know what is that life. The Bible says that eonian life is God and is indwelling and that God will be all in all, and not a single scripture I known of that says time will cease to exist. The Bible doesn't literally say "all shall be saved" verbatim, but you still believe it based on what you see in scripture. If God is eonian life an I have him within, then I have eonian life in this eon, and don't have to wait for the future to receive it.

[Tom]

I think anybody alive during the eons could be said to have "eonian life" in a sense, but I don't think that's what Christ was talking about when he used the phrase.

I think scripture does literally say, "all shall be saved" with this verse.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

I don't know how time will be perceived after the eons, but scripture says there will be a consummation of the eons. That is when life during the eons will end, but life will continue after that because there will be no more death.

[Seth]

Tom, as you said, eonian life is given for us to know God. So NOT everyone can say they have eonian life just because they are conscious. If so, unbelievers would have eonian life without needing faith. One can only have eonian life if they believe.

I can know that because 1) we can receive eonian life today 2) we can have it within us and how someone behaves is how we can know they have it within them or not 3) some people have it and others do not 4) everyone is already literally alive

The word verbatim means exact phraseology. There is no scripture that literally says "everyone shall be saved" but you can derive that from scriptures which do not say it verbatim such as the one you quoted which does not say it verbatim.

Life during the eons will only end if God ends since God is eonian life. As the scriptures say that death will be destroyed when God us all in all, not just because they are conscience. The consummation of eons just means that certain eons will come to a conclusion. Yes eons end. That doesn't mean others do not start. As long as there are eons and God is life, man will have eonian life including now.

[eaglesway]

Jesus used "aionian zoe" (age-during life) as opposed to "aionian kolassis"(age-during correction) and "aionian pyr"(age-during fire).

I think universalists have to be careful about how they handle this "seeming" paradox, because, just to me now, too many UR answers seem shallow to me and do not always hold up to scrutiny- appearing to be patchwork answers to ETrs and EDrs.

That's why I always go to olam as the source word, and demonstrate how in the OT it was used frequently and applied as an indefinte descriptive word defined in part by the subject it was connected to, such as distant past, distant future, the eternal life of God, the lenght of a slaves life, the duration of mountains, etc.

There is no "wrangling of words" necessary once this is proven. Many UR adherents (altho I took notice Tom in your post that you do see aionian in the light of olam) try to teach that aion always means a time with a definite end and beginning. In my opinion this is incorrect, both in terms of biblical context and translation from Heb/Aramaic/syriac to Greek. Because it is an incorrect argument, it reflects badly on UR theology and dissuades some from taking UR seriously(imo).

I am not saying I am "right", but I certainly have abundant evidence for my opinion in scriptural usage of olam. I also believe Jesus, in Matthew 25, is not saying there will be punishment "for an age"- but rather "for an appropriate indefinte period". Till every knee bows, till they have "paid the last penny", many stripes for some, few for others.

I sometimes deal with people who have studied these things intensely(from their point of view lol) and I dont like to use Aristotilian evidence because to me it is meanlingless since he was opposed to Hebrew/Christian thought. So the reason I mention it frequently is not to quibble :o). it is because I want to strengthen the arguments used by UR believers in debating the subject.

[Seth]

I think "for an age" and "for an indefinite period of time" are close enough in meaning to me to be pretty much the same thing. It's not forever.

[Seth]

I do admire your desire to strengthen the UR debate on the issue. I can only explain my own experience. As far as how we communicate UR to others, I have had many people over the years contact me and tell me that reading my paper on it has completely clarified the issue for them and had finally given them what they need to finally believe UR, whereas before it was muddled and confusing for them. That's been a big blessing. So, not only do I believe what I am saying, I also think it has been effective in communicating UR to many people. Whenever someone tries to test me on it and see if I can answer their questions, and I explain myself, they don't argue against it. I have had that happen alot of times too. The bottom line though is that you must go with what you believe, either way. If I believed differently then I do, then I wouldn't say it, and it wouldn't matter if it was less effective to me. I would just need to go with what I honestly believe as we all do and I respect you all on that issue.

[Tom]

I've said before that I believe "eonian life," as we both understand it, is only promised to believers. What I said in my previous post was "in a sense." That's the same way I view our different perspectives on "eonian life." I can see them both in a certain sense, and, as usual, our discussion has something to do with literal vs. figurative. I just don't buy the idea that a figurative interpretation is the "definition" while the literal perspective isn't valid. I don't think unbelievers will ever "believe" because that's about faith, but I think they will eventually know God when God is all in all.

Verbatim schmerbatim...God's going to save all mankind. I think there's a bunch of stuff we get from scripture that isn't necessarily in there word for word. "Universal reconcilation" is one example.

I think life during the eons will end because scripture says there is a consummation, but life won't end because we'll have immortality. Obviously God won't end either. I don't think there are anymore eons coming after the new heaven and new earth which you seem to consider to be a possibility. I don't see the point because the grand drama of the universe will be complete, and God will have demonstrated his overwhelming power of love to be the most powerful force in the universe. Even those chosen to be his enemies in the past will then be filled with the love of God, and there will be no more evil. There's always some kind of traumatic event that ushers in a new eon. What would be the need? Everything's going to be cool after the consummation. You're just going to get to hang out on your cloud strumming your harp enjoying life without anymore headaches. Man, I'm ready to get rid of my headache today. 

I'm aware of the idea that "olam" is indefinite as if perceiving the horizon, and I think the same thing applies to "aion." But I think the thing is that they're both finite, not infinite as "eternal" indicates. I think I remember hearing that your buddy Aristotle is the guy who came up with the idea of endless ages.

[lastpost]

I also believe Jesus, in Matthew 25, is not saying there will be punishment "for an age"- but rather "for an appropriate indefinte period". Till every knee bows, till they have "paid the last penny", many stripes for some, few for others.

Yes, and I also take the view that this is happening outside of earthly "time" as we know "time" - but it is happening, and has always happened, because...

I see Christ as having died and risen before the foundation of the world, and His Manifestation as Jesus was just that - a real living Manifestation showing what He is like and what He has been doing ever since His little ones came away from Perfection in what is commonly termed as "The Fall".

So, I believe these processes are happening at the death of the fleshly body, to each one individually.

For instance, when Jesus says of God: "I AM the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is NOT the God of the DEAD but of the LIVING" - He means it exactly like He says it - in the present tense!

This is one of the most difficult things I encounter with sincere people - the confinement of the age-lasting chastisement and age-lasting life to 2 periods of time, whereas I see them as two concise descriptions of processes for each soul individually.

The one who is in Christ goes to one of the many tarrying or abiding places in His Father's House, and lives out aionion life (and finds much joy in serving and going from 'glory to glory'). [There is much more to this but suffice it to say that a spirit who truly loves GOD or Christ, wants to give Him something and seeks hither and thither for Him!].

While the wicked one (whether needing 'many stripes or some') goes to an age-lasting pruning according to the need for purification of the soul. Once the purification (cleansing) is achieved, the soul can now pass into a tarrying or abiding place in aionion life (and take up loving service towards God's Grand Consummation)[Would not any follower of Christ cry out and plead to the Good Lord for such an opportunity?]

So, from here we see an intelligent, just process of how GOD is indeed becoming all-in-all - in my opinion.

[Seth]

Verbatim schmerbatim...God's going to save all mankind. I think there's a bunch of stuff we get from scripture that isn't necessarily in there word for word. "Universal reconcilation" is one example.

I agree. My only point was that just because the Bible doesn't verbatim say that unbelievers will receive eonian life, doesn't mean it won't happen. You can arrive at conclusions by analyzing the different parts and putting them together without needing verbatim statements to exist.

I think life during the eons will end because scripture says there is a consummation, but life won't end because we'll have immortality.

You just said that life will end, but it won't end. Either life will end, or it will not.

Maybe it will cease being "eonian" (according to your view) without eons but that doesn't mean life itself will end. If so, according to a literal view of life ending, then they will all have to be killed, then resurrected after those two eons for life to continue on.

Either way, I agree that the "eonian" aspect of "eonian life" would become meaningless if eons ended, and it would simply be life. The question is WHAT is that life? According to the Bible it is GOD HIMSELF, not simply being self aware and conscious during an eon. GOD is the life. CHRIST is the life. He says that HE HIMSELF is the life, and that he also HAS immortality. And not everyone has that life (Christ) because not everyone believes. And if someone believes, they may have that life (Christ) in THIS eon, not simply in two future eons of being literally conscious.

I am not saying that two future eons are never going to happen. I'm just saying that the Bible doesn't say that being conscious and self aware is what that life is. It's God himself. Many people who are self aware and conscious still don't have God and therefore have no eonian life. Those who are self aware and conscious who DO believe have that life now because they have Christ (the Life) within them.

I don't see the point because the grand drama of the universe will be complete, and God will have demonstrated his overwhelming power of love to be the most powerful force in the universe.

The drama of the universe might not be complete after that. What if God kept creating? He's a creator by nature isn't he? Time is simply the measure of things that happen in sequence. There's no reason for me to believe (especially not scripturally) that sequential evens and their measurements must definitely come to an end.

[rosered]

 
  Amen that is why we need the HOLY SPIRIT teacher     John   John 14
  We have an advantage over the ones waiting for it to come  during these scriptures   written   , But sure did  come as promised  ,     to those  who waited on the Lord   for being under the law to the  time of grace   this  duration of time  and so many have come and gone without knowing the salvation of all     



Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
...25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Luke 24:49
I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

John 1:33
And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

John 2:22
After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

John 12:16
At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him.

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--



John 15:26
"When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me.

John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Acts 1:4
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Acts 2:33
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

1 Corinthians 2:10
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

1 John 2:20
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.


I am one who is big on the Holy Spirit  of truth and  we only know and share   and write what we are given


I am always willing to learn  and understand  , but have a hard time at times   being able to put in words what is in my heart

I do trust Him to help all mankind

  We are in a prison of sorts our  own  minds can become a tormenting   thing of confusion  and not knowing  ,  the only peace I have ever know is from my personal relationship with Jesus  , I say this  sincerely and truly     , I have known sin sickness and  Babylons prison house   and the peace that only trusting in God can give and desire that for every one who has suffered  in this manner


Matt 25 ...39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'


40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'              :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

   I am one who is big on the Holy Spirit  of truth and  we only know and share   and write what we are given


I am always willing to learn  and understand  , but have a hard time at times   being able to put in words what is in my heart

I do trust Him to help all mankind

  We are in a prison of sorts our  own  minds can become a tormenting   thing of confusion  and not knowing  ,  the only peace I have ever know is from my personal relationship with Jesus  , I say this  sincerely and truly     , I have known sin sickness and  Babylons prison house   and the peace that only trusting in God can give and desire that for every one who has suffered  in this manner               :HeartThrob:

I feel the same way Rose. Good words.

CHB

[Tom]

I didn't say "life will end." I keep saying, though life will no longer be during the eons, eonian life as I perceive it will end because there will be no eons, but life will continue, even though the eons ended, because we'll have immortality. The eons are not necessary for life to continue. God will be all in all. So of course all will not only know God but be filled with God's love. I don't know what God has planned after the eons because scripture doesn't tell us that, and I don't even think we need to worry about that because I think it will be all good. The reason to believe there is an end, or consummation, is because scripture says so, but I think this long drama of eonian time could someday seem insignificant time wise due to immortality even though what we all learned from it will probably leave an impression. I think that's the purpose of the whole thing is to demonstrate to all on the earth and in the heavens the power of God by overcoming death and all the evil in the universe with love, and that's definitely a better ultimate plan than what orthodox theology gives us. 

[Seth]

I didn't say "life will end." I keep saying, though life will no longer be during the eons, eonian life as I perceive it will end because there will be no eons, but life will continue, even though the eons ended, because we'll have immortality. The eons are not necessary for life to continue. God will be all in all. So of course all will not only know God but be filled with God's love. I don't know what God has planned after the eons because scripture doesn't tell us that, and I don't even think we need to worry about that because I think it will be all good. The reason to believe there is an end, or consummation, is because scripture says so, but I think this long drama of eonian time could someday seem insignificant time wise due to immortality even though what we all learned from it will probably leave an impression. I think that's the purpose of the whole thing is to demonstrate to all on the earth and in the heavens the power of God by overcoming death and all the evil in the universe with love, and that's definitely a better ultimate plan than what orthodox theology gives us.

So eonian life will cease being eonian but will continue being life. Is that what you are basically saying?

Either way or doesn't matter to me so much. I believe that if God is eonian life, he will continue to be life even eons end. The logic behind what the Bible says eonian life is will continue to be that which is God himself indwelling as it is happening today, regardless if the word "eonian" is affixed to it or not.

[Tom]

I think the bottom line is life will never end again after we're immortalized, but scripture says the eons have a consummation. I don't have a problem with that, but I think having a literal perspective about God or Christ being eonian life presents a problem when the eons end. I don't have that perspective. So I'm not thinking about that. I just think the eons will end; but of course God will not; and we won't either because we'll be immortal. 

[Seth]

I don't see the problem. Supposing for argument sake that the re will be no further ages.

FOR NOW, God is eonian life. He is life in this eon making him eonian life as long as there are eons. After the eons ended he would no longer be known as eonian life, but Life. There's no logical conflict in that. He's already called the eonian God today. If there were no more eons, he would be simply God.

[Tom]

...just like he was before the eons, bro. He's only "eonian" because of and during the eons just like everything else pertaining to the eons because "eonian" only describes what's about the eons. So maybe we just found the first thing we ever didn't agree to disagree about. Amen.

[Seth]

Yes we definitely agree about a few things, for sure.

[Tom]

God bless ya, bro. It kind of reminds me of a joke I heard once about a couple of blind guys arguing about how to describe an elephant when one was in front of the elephant and one was behind. I don't remember it very clearly because I'm half demented and have had a virus for the last couple of days. But I think the point is that it seems like we're always looking a the same thing from different ends I guess because of the Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism thing even though I used to hate watching those folks argue about that on other Christian websites, and I don't consider myself belonging to any school of theology really. I just try to discern truth from scripture which I know you do to. We're just bound to look at things differently because we have different life experiences and different understandings of scripture. I know you tend to lean a little more toward the figurative side, and you probably think I take things a little too literally. But it all works out in the long run because I believe God reveals the truth to those who seek it.

[Seth]

 :friendstu:

[eaglesway]

I think "for an age" and "for an indefinite period of time" are close enough in meaning to me to be pretty much the same thing. It's not forever.

Still, in such a scenario, the idea of someone suffering "for an age" is still pretty broad. My "indefinte time" ranges from a moment(few stripes) to "who know how long", as olam indicates.  "Aionian" is an adjective in Matthew 25- not a noun.

But as I said, I don't want to quibble :o)

I rejoice in the work evryone here is doing to spread the "Victorious Gospel", and for me this is an open discussion- and I have no need or desire to take it further than that as we edify one another- and we all repeat the things we believe as the topics bring them round again :o)

I have changed my views several times based on things I have harvested from the sowing of members on this site.

As we read one anothers words we weigh what we think we kno, always looking for the "test" of "fire in the Day"- and we walk in the truth as best we can. As iron sharpens iron, our fellowship in what we share is priceless to me, and I hope to all who read our words, as they check them out.  :dsunny:

[Seth]

 :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

I think "for an age" and "for an indefinite period of time" are close enough in meaning to me to be pretty much the same thing. It's not forever.

Still, in such a scenario, the idea of someone suffering "for an age" is still pretty broad. My "indefinte time" ranges from a moment(few stripes) to "who know how long", as olam indicates.  "Aionian" is an adjective in Matthew 25- not a noun.

But as I said, I don't want to quibble :o)

I rejoice in the work evryone here is doing to spread the "Victorious Gospel", and for me this is an open discussion- and I have no need or desire to take it further than that as we edify one another- and we all repeat the things we believe as the topics bring them round again :o)

I have changed my views several times based on things I have harvested from the sowing of members on this site.

As we read one anothers words we weigh what we think we kno, always looking for the "test" of "fire in the Day"- and we walk in the truth as best we can. As iron sharpens iron, our fellowship in what we share is priceless to me, and I hope to all who read our words, as they check them out.  :dsunny:

Me too, amen. :iagree:  Can't wait for the day when all truth is known. I think we all will be a little surprised.  :eek:

CHB