OWLAM OLAM OLAWM

[ed]

I found this guys perspective interesting.  Wanted to see if it held water with you who study these things more then I.

http://www.owlam.com/

Thanks

[eaglesway]

Hi ed. I read it thoroughly and I disagree with his premise and his conclusion. He uses Strong as a reference- but then invalidates Strong by saying this.

quote
Strong#5769‛ôlâm ‛ôlâmo-lawm', o-lawm' From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

"The only word that is useful in the above attempt to define Olam is the word Concealed. A Hebrew man or woman in order to conceal themselves would tie or attach a cloth around their head. We commonly call this a veil today. The man or woman would then be joined or yoked with the cloth veil.  Olam is the yoking, binding, tieing  uniting, fastening, joining and weaving."

He uses the supposed fact that a Hebrew man or woman would conceal themselves with a veil by tying/yoking it- to assert that the only part of meaning Strong got right was "conceal" which to this guy means "yoked" because a Hebrew supposedly hid by "tying a veil".

This is disconnective reasoning. How the person concealed themselves is immaterial- the word means "vanishing point"- an unseen point, and this is why olam can be and is used in scripture to express, distant time past, distant time future, the world to come, an indefinite period of time, etc.

The means of "vanishing", "hiding" or "concealing" has no impact on the meaning of olam.

If I hide behind a tree, olam will not mean tree, or crouch, it will still mean hidden. ;o)

[Tom]

I don't look at Strong's much anymore because it's the King James concordance, and I think the Hebrew "olam" corresponds to the Greek "aion," both meaning a period of time not endless time.

[eaglesway]

Actually it is somewhat different than aion. Olam is defined as an indefinite time. It is a word that is specifically defined in relationship with the subject word it is attached to- detrmined in context rather than an absolute stand alone meaning.

Aionios is the NT word the Greeks used to translate olam, and I think it is very profitable to look at olam as the root, in interpreting aion.

Olam is used nearly 500 times in the OT and has a pretty wide variety of application depending on the context- all referencing an indefinite period of time- sometimes with a beginning and an end, sometimes not.

"men of old" (olam= of old describing men of distant time past) Gen

"you will put an awl through his ear and he shall be your slave forever"(olam= till he dies or you set him free) Lev

The everlastng God (olam= the time transcendant duration of God's life) Psalms

Olam is used nearly 500 times in the OT and has a pretty wide variety of application depending on the context- all referencing an indefinite period of time- sometimes with a beginning and an end, sometimes not.

Anyone can compare any Greek dictionary, lexicon or interlinear to any Hebrew one to confirm this.

[Tom]

The Greek "aion" is the same. It is an "indefinite" period of time relative to the context. It can be the length of a man's life, the next  thousand year eon, or longer. We don't know how long the last eon will be or even how long this one will last. The important thing is that both "olam" and "aion" refer to a period of time not infinite time as "eternal" does. I believe we will all eventually receive "immortality" which means life without death from then on or forever after that, but I believe only God has "eternal life" because he always was, is, and will be. I think it is "immortality" that people are referring to when they say "eternal life," but we all had a beginning. So I don't think we will have "eternal life," just "immortality." I hope you don't think I'm "nit picking" again, bro, or "quibbling," because I think there's a difference. That's why I try not to use the King James lingo that's relative to the King James portrayal of God's ultimate plan because it confuses the issue. I understand why most people do though.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[eaglesway]

No Tom, I don't think you are nit-picking LOL

I just think aionian life is a gift of immortality, and I recognize the difference you are seeing between eternal life and immortality and tho I am not sure I agree, I don't need to debate such a fine line of distinction- that would be quibbling :o)

[rosered]

 :LH:

  quibble over kibble  :OhNo:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kibble

[lomarah]

 :laughing7:

[Tom]

Well, I'm glad my scribblin isn't causin quibblin.

[Seth]

Just tossing in another viewpoint. I think immortality is different from aionios zoe (which I believe translates to life of the age), though coming from the same source. I think life is referring to knowledge of God through the Spirit, whereas immortality is lacking mortality granted through the same.

[Tom]

I think immortality is simply the opposite of mortality meaning not subject to death. I think mortals are subject to death, but spirit beings are not. That's why the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons in the lake of fire while mortals will be dead. I think those of us in the body of Christ will have immortality during eonian life for the next two eons and beyond. I think eonian life refers to life during the last two eons. I think unbelievers will eventually have immortality when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons, but they will not experience eonian life because they will be dead in the lake of fire which scripture says is the second death. I think it is important to distinguish between eonian life and eternal life which I think is a mistranslation. Eonian life will come to an end, but I think eternal life is life that has always been and will always be which is why I think people who use that phrase are really referring to the immortality that all mankind will eventually experience but beginning at two different times. I think scripture tells us that believers will be vivified when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air. The word "vivified," used in the Concordant Version, means to make alive with immortality. I believe God is the savior of all mankind, and all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God so that God may be all in all.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:42-55)

"Contend the ideal contest of the faith. Get hold of eonian life, for which you were called, and you avow the ideal avowal in the sight of many witnesses. I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:12-16)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Seth]

Well the Bible defines aionios life as to know God and to be in God, to abide in him. In that respect, I do not believe aionios life will end, but because I believe immortality will be added. I believe the Spirit gives all manner of various gifts, and immortality and knowing God are two.

[Tom]

I think life during the last two eons will end when all the eons have ended, but immortality means life will continue after the eons.

[Tom]

I think the point is that life doesn't end with the eons because of immortality.

[eaglesway]

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of Godwho has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,  but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

It seems to me that immortality is a part of the revelation of Jesus Christ, tied to the abolition of death, and part of our inheritance.

1 Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

"aionion zoe" lasts forever, because Jesus said of it, He that believes in me shall never die. Never dying means living forever, experiencing everlasting life. The exact meaning of the word immortal is "never dying"

God is immortal, immortals do not die. God is also eternal, outside time- having no beginning. To be immortal does not have to do with "having no beginning". It has to do with "not dying". God has given the promise of immortality to man in Jesus Christ. Whatever will not die is immortal. I think after the resurrection we will be immortal and eventually every living being will be immortal.

In literature and mythology immortals are usually born or created, but do not die..... "not dying" (im mortalis)

In English(as I see it)

To be eternal has to do with "having no beginningor end, time transcendant" (imo)

So to me, everlasting can mean "having a beginning and lasting forever"

immortal can mean "having a beginning but never dying"


But these are English meanings, and they are valid because the spiritual thoughts behind them are real. But those distinctions are not always clearly made in Hebrew or Greek. Yet, we still try to determine whether or not those particular thoughts were what was meant in usages of olam and aion/aionian in particular verses. In the languages(Hebrew and Greek) there was not absolute definition. So we have to give attention to context. The Hebrews simply doubled up olam, "olam olam" to express the ideas of everlasting, eternal, forever, etc.

I think to live olam olam, or eons of eons is, in meaning- is the same as everlasting. It was the Greek and Hebrew way of expressing concepts like everlasting or forever. So there is a difference between "eis tov aion" -to the age- and "tou aionios ton aionion"- to the age of the ages, and "eis tous aionas"-to(into, through) the ages in Greek, but not that much distinction was given in Hebrew.

Conceptually, I agree that (in our language), to be eternal is different than to be everlasting. Everlasting can have a beginning. A distinction could be made that eternal transcends time, having no beginning and no end- but this distinction is not clearly made in the Hebrew or even the Greek language, with the exception that they understood there own context better than we do so........

We have to trust the Holy Spirit to reveal it from the context, comparing spiritual words with spiritual thoughts- our own thoughts, in our own language, because that is how God speaks to us(1 Cor 2)  :o)

[Seth]

I think life during the last two eons will end when all the eons have ended, but immortality means life will continue after the eons.

Will we still know God and still be in God?

[eaglesway]

Absolutely ! :banana:

[eaglesway]

He that believes in me shall never die :o)

[Seth]

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and aionios-life.

John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.

There's nothing in those definitions about two future aions. That's not to say that there are not going to be two future aions, just that it wasn't included in these definitions.

If I go ONLY by what the Bible says is aionios life (excluding opinions), I am left with the notion that as long as one fits the definition of "that we may know him, and we are in him" then aionios life will carry on past two future ages, and in fact we also have received it now in this present age. That's just how I look at it.

I'm not saying don't have opinions, but I choose simply to go by what the Bible literally defines aionios zoe as being and not go beyond that.

[Tom]

Of course God will be all in all at the end of the eons and beyond due to our immortality. Each eon is a period of time which has a beginning and an end, and I think all the eons together are just a temporary period of time. I don't know how or even if we will perceive time after the eons, but I think believers will experience immortality for the last two eons and beyond. That's the difference between us an unbelievers. We have been promised eonian life, but all mankind will receive immortality, just at different times. The Greek "aionion" is the adjective of "aion," which is a period of time. So "aionion" is about "aion" meaning life that is of the eon or eons. My translation does not say "never die," and I've mentioned before that I think that's one of the places that the King James causes confusion. See the attachment. I do not believe that eonian life lasts forever because the eons will end, but our life won't after we're immortalized even though we may have died before we're snatched away to meet Christ in the air.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Tom]

That's why, even though I've been accused of "nit-picking," I think it's necessary to read an accurate translation of scripture, and "have a pattern of sound words" (2 Timothy 1:13). There's a big difference between "never" and "for the eon."

[Tom]

PS: If you say, "eventually every living being will be immortal," we're going to have to start talking about skeeters again.

[Seth]

Tom, if you can find a scripture that says "and this is aionios life: being literally alive for two future aions" then present it. But for now, I believe the Bible explicitly and plainly defines it as "to know him" and "be in him." I know that doesn't fit very well with a "literal" viewpoint, but nothing in the Bible says that God has to define his own terminology from that viewpoint.

What is aionios life according to the Bible? To know God and to be in God. Did the apostles in the early church abide in God and know him? If the answer is yes, then they had aionios life already according to the Biblical definition, and did not need to wait for two future ages.

[Tom]

I understand your concept of present eonian life, and I think that's in the same sense that we're new creations now. I think that is figuratively speaking, but we'll also literally be new creations when we're changed to spiritual bodies and literally be alive through the eons of the eons regardless of how long the last eon is. We're told the next eon is a thousand years even though some say that's figurative language simply indicating a long time. I think life is what it is unless you're a zombie, and eonian simply describes whatever it is associated with as pertaining to the eon or eons because it is the adjective of eon. You could interpret eonian life strictly figuratively if you want to, but it seems to me it can be interpreted both ways. The thing is that eonian is simply the adjective of eon meaning it just describes something about the eon or eons. It could be eonian life or eonian chastening or eonian whatever. I don't think most folks here believe eonian chastening will last forever even though there's disagreement about exactly what that chastening applies to, either nations or individuals a thousand years later. I think scripture is concerned with the eons, not eternity. We're told at the beginning of Genesis about the beginning of the eons, and we're also told by Paul about the end of the eons. We don't know what God was up to before he created the eons. He might have been taking a long nap because he knew we'd be making him crazy, but the point is that we're not told about what happened before the eons or what will happen after the eons except that all mankind will never die again, all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God, and God will be all in all. I don't know about the rest of you, but that's enough for me because I think that covers it all. There will be no more evil or death, and we'll get to see all our loved ones again, even those who died as unbelievers. I'd say it's not a problem to trust God about the program after the eons because it's probably going to be an amazing experience!

[rosered]

  AWESOME      :goodpost:  and wholeheartedly agree   John :HeartThrob:
 

Thanks Seth  and  Tom   for your input very helpful     :icon_flower: 

I always  believed those under the law    mouths must be stopped , that age / eon  is  fading away    and mortality is the effect      Romans 3 ...18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES." 19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

   Everyone dies in the knowledge of sin  , I do believe this is why Paul called this the ministration of death  , Those in Christ are to consider themselves dead to the world , that being  overcoming the world though Jesus Christ    , whom has  overcome the world  and death       in other words        and also am convinced some are still under the law   being the examples    of the scribes readers   of the word  but not doers    Pharisees    ,  the separatist     and the hypocrites    ,  they tell you right but no not live it , they talk the talk but do not walk  the walk in the SPIRIT  of Life ......   Call Him   by name only but does not know them ....


But not all   are  , we have those in Christ     ,   being in Him by the SPIRIT & TRUTH,   LAW OF LIBERTY    are reigning with Him now in the sense of this     ,, they have overcome the world     being set free  from the elemental things and binding of the law and heavy loads to hard to bear   and men teaching men    blind leading the blind ,works of their hands ,  The Spiritual  law   that is very contrary to the flesh and blood human    that has never been promised eternal life

Eternal Life is being in Jesus Christ     here and now and  in the  endless Life of   immortality     , being seated with Christ in heavenly places   is the ruling and reigning with Him to me   , because they do not dwell on and in the things of the world any longer but keep their minds on the things above   desiring the salvation of all mankind   , Paul gives excellent hints   and unfolds the mysteries   comparing the spiritual with spiritual and the scripture  to scripture
Jesus says    my yoke is easy and my burden is light and   He is lowly    and you will find rest for your souls /lives

 

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

       Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

       Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

       For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Because the Spirit and truth are doing the works in  and though you   , being anointed   by the HOLY SPIRIT         where all the gifts of God though Jesus Christ reside  , the rewards are with HIM    , IN THE SENSE HE IS   THE REWARD ! 

Holy Spirit and Word of God       ....     

   having the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father  both 

  Romans 8 9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,

if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness

Both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ being the regeneration of the HOLY SPIRIT     

     titus 3 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior   


These are very important  scriptures    to me  , that help us to see   having the  newness of Life that was promised long ago in the Old  that we now have  in the NEW and experience     right now to me     ... 

   :dsunny: