what happens when you die?

[lastpost]

There's no mention of the word "vision" in Luke or Mark. There is a mention of two males "Who appeared in glory" named Moses and Elijah and who were seen / beheld (eido).

Peter, who was awake (after sleeping, so this was no vision during sleep) when he saw and heard Moses and Elijah, apparently frightened and not knowing what to say decided they were real enough to warrant making them some shelter (not knowing spirits do not need material shelter). That certainly does not sound like whatever a "vision" that is not a spectacle to the eyesight is meant to mean.

The word attributed to Matthew:
Transliteration:
horama {hor'-am-ah}
Primary Definition: "that which is seen, spectacle"

Word Origin:
from 3708*

*3708 Transliteration:
horao {hor-ah'-o}
Word Origin:
properly, to stare at [cf 3700]

Definition:
1.   to see with the eyes
2.   to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3.   to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4.   to see, to look to
1.   to take heed, beware
2.   to care for, pay heed to
5.   I was seen, showed myself, appeared For Synonyms see entry 5822

Besides, it would not be unusual to attribute a word which is connected with supernatural witnessing to seeing a supernatural sight - indeed it would be a horama, there's no reason to believe otherwise - but that in no way means Moses and Elijah were not the cause of themselves being witnessed.

Indeed, seeing spirits is using harama-type sight - it is seeing them supernaturally, they are spirits after all.

And if this was not really Moses and Elijah "discussing His forthcoming decease that he should accomplish in Jerusalem", then what would be the point of God or Jesus pretending it was them, as if they were imitations of Moses and Elijah - that simply is not very credible at all, very non-Divine-like, to use cheap imitations!

This was really the two spirits of Moses and Elijah. When a spirit has been in God's Greater World of Spirit for as long as these two holy men, they would no longer resemble their earthly bodies, they would have become so spiritualised that their forms would have gained more omnipresent fluidity.

In order for them to be recognisable by humans (which was clearly a major point of the disciples being especially picked for this spectacle) the spirit must reduce its vibrations to those near earth density. We then see these two showing some of their spiritual glory before disappearing again.

And furthermore, advanced spirits such as these would not even need to make a personal appearance, they could be developed enough to build up images of themselves on earth from deep within the Divine Sphere of Christ should they wish to do so, then yes, that really would be a vision too.

A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive. Think seriously: Why would this spectacle appear in three of the four gospel-records if the people talking to Jesus Christ were just "nothings" that did not really exist? We can certainly start inventing reasons, but in my book if Jesus talks about something as serious as His forthcoming death, He is going to do it with serious living people* and not mere images without real personalities!

* Using the term "people" to include the spirits of individuals who have departed the fleshly tabernacle.

Peace in the Spirit

[Tom]

"A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive," but it doesn't mean they are alive either. I think they were dead and are still dead just like everybody else who has died, except Christ, but will be immortalized in the future, believers first when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.

[rosered]

"A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive," but it doesn't mean they are alive either. I think they were dead and are still dead just like everybody else who has died, except Christ, but will be immortalized in the future, believers first when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.

  Hi Tom
  I dont think you believe that all things are being gathered into  Christ and   that all  things come out of Him  yet ??
  Moses and Elijah  represent the Law   & prophets  ,     the  transfiguration  was showing us that     they were gathered in Christ when Jesus stood alone
Jesus represents the Wisdom and Power of God       showing the old testament prophecy   being fulfilled



  15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

  predicted prophesied Isaiah 26:19




Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.   
this happened      at Christ death when  the Flesh of Jesus Christ being the veil was torn from top to bottom ,  the way truth and life had been heaven opened  and access  to the Father by Jesus     [Hebrews 10;20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

Matt 27 ,,   The Death of Jesus
...52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;


53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.


54Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"...
   many say this is made up     but its not spurious     its man trying to suppress the faith of some   
   
CLV



 

50 Now Jesus, again crying with a loud voice, lets out the spirit.
51 And lo! the curtain of the temple is rent in two from above to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks are rent,
52 and the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the reposing saints were roused,
53 and, coming out of the tombs after His rousing, they entered into the holy city and are disclosed to many.
54 Now the centurion and those with him who are keeping Jesus, perceiving the quake and the occurrences, were tremendously afraid, saying, "Truly this was God's Son!"

[Tom]

I think all comes out of the Father through Christ to us. I don't know which verses you're talking about Rose, but here's a link to the Concordant Version if you want to look them up. http://concordant.org/online/index.html

[Tom]

Maybe you meant these verses.

"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

[micah7:9]

"A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive," but it doesn't mean they are alive either. I think they were dead and are still dead just like everybody else who has died, except Christ, but will be immortalized in the future, believers first when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.

  Hi Tom
  I dont think you believe that all things are being gathered into  Christ and   that all  things come out of Him  yet ??
  Moses and Elijah  represent the Law   & prophets  ,     the  transfiguration  was showing us that     they were gathered in Christ when Jesus stood alone
Jesus represents the Wisdom and Power of God       showing the old testament prophecy   being fulfilled



  15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

  predicted prophesied Isaiah 26:19




Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.   
this happened      at Christ death when  the Flesh of Jesus Christ being the veil was torn from top to bottom ,  the way truth and life had been heaven opened  and access  to the Father by Jesus     [Hebrews 10;20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

Matt 27 ,,   The Death of Jesus
...52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;


53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.


54Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"...
   many say this is made up     but its not spurious     its man trying to suppress the faith of some   
   
CLV



 

50 Now Jesus, again crying with a loud voice, lets out the spirit.
51 And lo! the curtain of the temple is rent in two from above to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks are rent,
52 and the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the reposing saints were roused,
53 and, coming out of the tombs after His rousing, they entered into the holy city and are disclosed to many.
54 Now the centurion and those with him who are keeping Jesus, perceiving the quake and the occurrences, were tremendously afraid, saying, "Truly this was God's Son!"

" the  transfiguration " was a vision. Also at the time you speak of no one had been converted as of yet. The people who were roused also died again, I believe that rousing was a sign.  :2c:

[micah7:9]

There's no mention of the word "vision" in Luke or Mark. There is a mention of two males "Who appeared in glory" named Moses and Elijah and who were seen / beheld (eido).

Peter, who was awake (after sleeping, so this was no vision during sleep) when he saw and heard Moses and Elijah, apparently frightened and not knowing what to say decided they were real enough to warrant making them some shelter (not knowing spirits do not need material shelter). That certainly does not sound like whatever a "vision" that is not a spectacle to the eyesight is meant to mean.

The word attributed to Matthew:
Transliteration:
horama {hor'-am-ah}
Primary Definition: "that which is seen, spectacle"

Word Origin:
from 3708*

*3708 Transliteration:
horao {hor-ah'-o}
Word Origin:
properly, to stare at [cf 3700]

Definition:
1.   to see with the eyes
2.   to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3.   to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4.   to see, to look to
1.   to take heed, beware
2.   to care for, pay heed to
5.   I was seen, showed myself, appeared For Synonyms see entry 5822

Besides, it would not be unusual to attribute a word which is connected with supernatural witnessing to seeing a supernatural sight - indeed it would be a horama, there's no reason to believe otherwise - but that in no way means Moses and Elijah were not the cause of themselves being witnessed.

Indeed, seeing spirits is using harama-type sight - it is seeing them supernaturally, they are spirits after all.

And if this was not really Moses and Elijah "discussing His forthcoming decease that he should accomplish in Jerusalem", then what would be the point of God or Jesus pretending it was them, as if they were imitations of Moses and Elijah - that simply is not very credible at all, very non-Divine-like, to use cheap imitations!

This was really the two spirits of Moses and Elijah. When a spirit has been in God's Greater World of Spirit for as long as these two holy men, they would no longer resemble their earthly bodies, they would have become so spiritualised that their forms would have gained more omnipresent fluidity.

In order for them to be recognisable by humans (which was clearly a major point of the disciples being especially picked for this spectacle) the spirit must reduce its vibrations to those near earth density. We then see these two showing some of their spiritual glory before disappearing again.

And furthermore, advanced spirits such as these would not even need to make a personal appearance, they could be developed enough to build up images of themselves on earth from deep within the Divine Sphere of Christ should they wish to do so, then yes, that really would be a vision too.

A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive. Think seriously: Why would this spectacle appear in three of the four gospel-records if the people talking to Jesus Christ were just "nothings" that did not really exist? We can certainly start inventing reasons, but in my book if Jesus talks about something as serious as His forthcoming death, He is going to do it with serious living people* and not mere images without real personalities!

* Using the term "people" to include the spirits of individuals who have departed the fleshly tabernacle.

Peace in the Spirit

No offence, but you seem to know a lot about "spirits" and the "spirit world."  I don't  "see" where the Definition:
1.   to see with the eyes
2.   to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3.   to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4.   to see, to look to
1.   to take heed, beware
2.   to care for, pay heed to
Is something other than a vision. 
:HeartThrob: :2c:

[lastpost]

No offence, but you seem to know a lot about "spirits" and the "spirit world."  I don't  "see" where the Definition:
1.   to see with the eyes
2.   to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3.   to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4.   to see, to look to
1.   to take heed, beware
2.   to care for, pay heed to
Is something other than a vision. 
:HeartThrob: :2c:

No offence taken Micah, but if you would read what you have quoted me saying (and no offense!), you will see that I have agreed the definition of vision is absolutely acceptable...

Besides, it would not be unusual to attribute a word which is connected with supernatural witnessing to seeing a supernatural sight - indeed it would be a horama, there's no reason to believe otherwise - but that in no way means Moses and Elijah were not the cause of themselves being witnessed.

Indeed, seeing spirits is using harama-type sight - it is seeing them supernaturally, they are spirits after all.

Spirits are not made of three-dimensional material atoms - in my opinion...

[micah7:9]

No offence, but you seem to know a lot about "spirits" and the "spirit world."  I don't  "see" where the Definition:
1.   to see with the eyes
2.   to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3.   to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4.   to see, to look to
1.   to take heed, beware
2.   to care for, pay heed to
Is something other than a vision. 
:HeartThrob: :2c:

No offence taken Micah, but if you would read what you have quoted me saying (and no offense!), you will see that I have agreed the definition of vision is absolutely acceptable...

Besides, it would not be unusual to attribute a word which is connected with supernatural witnessing to seeing a supernatural sight - indeed it would be a horama, there's no reason to believe otherwise - but that in no way means Moses and Elijah were not the cause of themselves being witnessed.

Indeed, seeing spirits is using harama-type sight - it is seeing them supernaturally, they are spirits after all.

Spirits are not made of three-dimensional material atoms - in my opinion...

God is spirit, in my opinion there is no dimension to spirit.  :2c:

[rosered]

" the  transfiguration " was a vision. Also at the time you speak of no one had been converted as of yet. The people who were roused also died again, I believe that rousing was a sign.  :2c:

  Hi Micah , I agree they were seeing a  vision of   glory  with    eyes of perceiving" become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand":

  For me I do not think   that those risen ones were returning in the flesh and blood bodies to a literal city of Jerusalem , but were the first fruits company     going home !!   as the Cross  of Jesus Christ proves that  Jesus Christ has the keys of hell/ graves unseen and death   , and   those freed from   death were the promise  of the Father   showing His  truth , those two Moses and Elijah represent the freed   from under the Law of sin being   death  /Moses and  prophets /Elijah
  When Michael disputed over the body of Moses /those under the Law        in Jude we see its the Lord that rebukes satan / adversary   
and those who died in Faith not receiving the promises    in Hebrews 11       the heavenly Jerusalem 

   This was the need for the  new   ambassadors of Christ to say with urgency   and in many places its near and   at hand  =in power and   they that are alive  will see Him  soon  , This was Jesus promise to them  ,  behold I return quickly   ...      THEY has no idea   the meaning a 1000 years is a day  unto the Lord  and the Lord is not slack concerning His promises   but patient   that all come to repentance , Peter understood  by the Spirit  speaking to let us be informed     and there is a   spiritual meaning to this "phrase"

  I really do not think most people realize the Power of Jesus Christ cross and how it was    a pivotal point    =the center point of any rotational system  ,    a wheel   within a wheel
a turning   around   a shadow of turning point    from darkness /ignorance   to coming to the Light and Knowledge of God  , a  beginning of the new  and living way    preparing us   for   knowing God  and His will for all   
 
  I have the keys to hell and death  Rev  1  17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man.


And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One;


and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore,


and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

19"Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.


Satan lost His power   to accuse      before God  night / those  under  law    and Day/ those under  grace     

   starting with Moses body    the body of believers under the Law and ministration of death     

  the One we saw  Saul   under and Christ returned to Him and  gave  him the gift of Life/ Light  the knowing Gods plans and mysteries   of the ages   

and He was a witness and wrote it down for us   , His new name   was Paul    and He become    a LIVING STONE  IN GODS KINGDOM       from a heart of stone  dead letters  /dead men 

, he was a partaker   of it  while  flesh and blood , but He was a new creature in Christ   and  living   and walking in the SPIRIT   and  explained  and told us how to as well ...  [the inward  man  renewed day by day  light getting brighter and brighter   and being able to see   more clearly ]

    This is just  my understanding  and trying to explain it  , It is hard to  know  what to say  , but we keep on trying   as the  Spirit leads us to do so


  Saul /Paul was struck with blindness  on the brightness of the Lords coming to him  and the old man of sin   , him being a judge  and killing off the new babes in Christ       was something he  was convicted for and  was humbled by  CHRIST PRESENCE      ,   This is the Lords way   is to humble us and   change us 
  for the letter of the law killers  of wrath     to   peaceable  , loving and forgiving      reconciliation  members   of His body    and    of His ministry       

as Paul  preached  and the Spirit  blessed and those given  ears to hear what the Spirit is saying though Paul  and all of those chosen and given the gifts of Life to us     and we share  this with one and other     in Love  and not  by  force   as it was done before    Christ came   the first time

  His body of believers   eat this Life  and sustain the Spiritual man within ,bread of heaven   and drinking His blood is our Life  in Him  , there is life in the blood   

[lastpost]

, he was a partaker   of it  while  flesh and blood , but He was a new creature in Christ   and  living   and walking in the SPIRIT   and  explained  and told us how to as well ...  [the inward  man renewed day by day  light getting brighter and brighter   and being able to see   more clearly ]

   This is just  my understanding  and trying to explain it  , It is hard to  know  what to say  , but we keep on trying   as the  Spirit leads us to do so

     His body of believers   eat this Life  and sustain the Spiritual man within ,bread of heaven   and drinking His blood is our Life  in Him  , there is life in the blood

I see
In the inner chamber of the heart
Resides Truth of a Purity that cannot be outside
as it ceases to be Pure,
Remaining there, secret, one with HIM alone
In the courtyard, in the outer chamber
Truth is dropped as the heart yearns to Give
It is of the Blood of the Giver

[rosered]

, he was a partaker   of it  while  flesh and blood , but He was a new creature in Christ   and  living   and walking in the SPIRIT   and  explained  and told us how to as well ...  [the inward  man renewed day by day  light getting brighter and brighter   and being able to see   more clearly ]

   This is just  my understanding  and trying to explain it  , It is hard to  know  what to say  , but we keep on trying   as the  Spirit leads us to do so

     His body of believers   eat this Life  and sustain the Spiritual man within ,bread of heaven   and drinking His blood is our Life  in Him  , there is life in the blood

I see
In the inner chamber of the heart
Resides Truth of a Purity that cannot be outside
as it ceases to be Pure,
Remaining there, secret, one with HIM alone
In the courtyard, in the outer chamber
Truth is dropped as the heart yearns to Give
It is of the Blood of the Giver

   In the hearts of men ,   but more than that  , the Lord Himself said        dont look for Him in   the   dessert or  secret chamber/ heart 

He will come as lightning out of the east and  shone to the west
Matt 24     
I am convinced its    such   an individual seeking of God  the Holy FATHER     seeking those to worship Him in Spirit and Truth     that it is only done on a personal level     and no  one can    say for sure not even the Lord Himself  nor the angels            they will be gathered one by one  according to This scripture

the lost sheep of Israel    gathered one by one   ,   this   to  me is also the fulfilling of the   Gentiles   come in   /all other nations   that hear His voice and believe   and will live  also   


Paul mentioned no  difference between the jew and gentile  Roman 10 ...11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Its the calling that makes the  hope of our  election sure      this is the time to me .   calling on the name of the Lord   as those do   daily   


he Deliverance of Israel
...11When its limbs are dry, they are broken off; Women come and make a fire with them, For they are not a people of discernment, Therefore their Maker will not have compassion on them. And their Creator will not be gracious to them.

12In that day the LORD will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel. 13It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

Now Jesus appeared in Jerusalem   and said this    to them who heard    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which kill the prophets, and stone them that are sent to you; how often would I have gathered your children together, as a hen does gather her brood under her wings, and you would not!

so Jesus spoke to the samaritan woman at the well    in John 4   and said ,    you worship  what you know  not ...21Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers....   Jesus  Christ was declaring the salvaion of all and  who will call on the name of the Lord to be saved   

here we see its not   anything but in SPIRIT AND TRUTH   and its always and every where     ....   not  contained    but only shown        in Spirit and truth is the only way the father is glorified    and its not very far from anyone of us     Acts 17
     Matt   24
26 "If people tell you, '[L Look,] ·the Christ [L he] is in the ·desert [wilderness],' don't go there. If they say, '[L Look,] he is ·in the inner room [or hiding here; in this secret place],' don't believe it. 27 When the Son of Man comes [Dan. 7:13–14], he will be like lightning flashing from the east to the west [C he will be seen by everyone]. 28 Wherever the ·dead body [carcass] is, there the vultures will gather.

29 "Soon after the ·trouble [tribulation; distress] of those days,

'the sun will grow dark,
    and the moon will not give its light.
The stars will fall from ·the sky [heaven].
    And the ·powers of the heavens [celestial bodies] will be shaken [Is. 13:10; 34:4; cf. Ezek. 32:7–8; Joel 2:10, 31].'
30 "At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in ·the sky [or heaven]. Then all the ·peoples [tribes] of the world will ·cry [mourn]. They will see the Son of Man coming on ·clouds in the sky [or the clouds of heaven] with great power and glory. 31 He will use a loud trumpet to send his angels, and they will gather his ·chosen people [elect] ·from every part of the world [L from the four winds, from one end of the sky/heavens to another].

32 "Learn a ·lesson [parable; analogy] from the fig tree: When its branches ·become green and soft [become tender; sprout] and new leaves appear, you know summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things happening, you will know that ·the time [or he] is near, ·ready to come [right at the door]. 34 I tell you the truth, all these things will happen ·while the people of this time are still living [before this generation passes away; C either the generation that sees the destruction of Jerusalem (ad 70), or a future generation of the end times]. 35 ·Earth and sky will be destroyed [T Heaven and earth will pass away], but the words I have said will never ·be destroyed [pass away].


  the fig tree is   represented of Israel     being destroyed in Jerusalem  for everyone to observe  even to this day we know its   not where the Lord is,   GOD IS  not in one place    But  poured out   on all flesh    and not far from any of us     in Spirit and truth   we worship GOD ,   that is anyone born again believer     

   our hearts are full because the   Spirit   and truth   have come to those who believe     and obey His  WORD OF TRUTH       

[Tom]

I think the parable of the sheep and the goats is commonly misunderstood to be about the judgment of individual sinners before the great white throne, but it is actually about the nations being judged for their treatment of Israel a thousand years before the great white throne judgment. The reason I bring this up is because this parable has been used in an attempt to verify dead souls being alive in the lake of fire or Gehenna to be corrected or chastened. I believe mortals will be dead in both even though the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,14) because Gehenna will simply be used to burn the corpses of executed criminals as it was in the past, and scripture says the lake of fire is the second death.

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh" (Isaiah
66:23 & 24).

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I also think the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is commonly understood as a teaching on death when it is actually a case of Christ using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html

There's a lot of information out there that attempts to support the doctrine of the inherent immortality of the soul, but I believe immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church in an attempt to verify its doctrine of immediate and endless torture in fire forever. I know there are many people on this forum who believe in universal reconciliation but also believe in immortality of the soul. This isn't the first time I've seen this information debated. I believe all mankind will eventually be given immortality, but Christ is the only one who has it now. I believe that the ecclesia, the body of Christ, will be immortalized when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air.

"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

I believe that those who are judged before the great white throne and cast into the lake of fire, which the inspired written word of God says is the second death, will eventually be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:26). I think it's hard for people to let go of tradition which most of us were probably brought up with in church. Most of us here have had to at least let go of torture in fire forever which is why we're here, but there are other things that I've come to believe are simply tradition of man that also invalidate the word of God. Immortality of the soul is one of them, and the Trinity is another. But I try not to dwell on these much on this forum because everybody seems to get upset about these issues. I have my own personal beliefs like everybody else does. I don't try to hammer anybody with mine. I just try to understand scripture the best I can, and, if something seems to contradict scripture, I let it go even if I suffer persecution from fellow believers for doing so. Persecution is something we've all experienced if we've shared universal reconciliation with fellow believers who haven't yet received that revelation. I just think you can believe whatever you want to based on your own interpretation of scripture, but I believe what I do based on my own study. I don't put anybody down for their beliefs, but I'm always willing to share my perspective if people are respectful and share theirs in the spirit of God's love. I think we're all here to share God's word and God's love. So, if you want to believe that you're alive when you're dead, go for it, but I have to disagree respectfully. And, as has been said before, this stuff doesn't really affect the evangel or universal reconciliation which is mostly what this site is supposed to be about I think.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html

I know it's hard to let go of loved ones who have died, but I don't think it helps to allow ourselves to be deceived into thinking they're actually still alive while they're dead. They're alive in our memories, and I believe they'll be alive again when scripture says we'll all be immortalized. But right now I believe only Christ is immortalized. I know the following scripture has been debated before as to who exactly it's about, but I believe it's about Christ because he's the only one who was mortal who is now immortal until we're snatched away and meet him in the air.

"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

I think the Trinity and immortality of the soul both deny the resurrection because, if Christ didn't really die according to what scripture says death is, knowing nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), then the Father didn't really bring him back to life. And I think this all goes back to the serpents's lie to Eve in the garden.

"But the serpent said to the woman: Not to die shall you be dying." (Genesis 3:4)

I think it's all about the tradition of church doctrine perpetuating Satan's deception that we don't die, and God doesn't really have the power to bring the dead back to life. But I say it shouldn't be so incredible that God really brings the dead who are really dead back to life because he obviously has the power to create life itself. So I'm sorry, my brothers and sisters here on the forum, I love you with the love of God, but I have to refuse to continue to go along with what I was taught in church about immortality of the soul because I think it's a distortion of what true immortality is described to be in the inspired written word of God and because I think it's a thinly veiled deception to dishonor the power of God. I think we may be immortalized in spiritual bodies without a soul even being involved because scripture says the soul "is in the blood" and "is its blood" (Leviticus 17:11,14).

"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:42-50)

I'm sorry if I offended anybody by mentioning the Trinity, but I think scripture is clear that God is one not three in one.

"Now concerning the dead, that they are being roused; did you not read in the scroll of Moses, at the thorn bush, how God spoke to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You, then, are much deceived." And, approaching, one of the scribes, hearing them discussing, having perceived that He answered them ideally, inquires of Him, "What is the foremost precept of all?" Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord. And, You shall be loving the Lord your God out of your whole heart, and out of your whole soul, and out of your whole comprehension, and out of your whole strength. This is the foremost precept. And the second is like it: 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'" (Mark 12:26-31)

I included the beginning of that last quote because it's been used in an attempt to verify immortality of the soul, and it immediately precedes the text that should make it clear that God is one not three. The point is that, in order to be "roused," the dead must first be sleeping, not immediately passed from one form of life to another. Christ himself referred to death figuratively as "sleep."

"He said these things, and after this He is saying to them, "Lazarus, our friend, has found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of sleep." The disciples, then, said to Him, "Lord, if he has repose, he shall be saved." Now Jesus had made a declaration concerning his death, yet they suppose that He is saying it concerning the repose of sleep. Jesus, then, said to them with boldness then, "Lazarus died."" (John 11:11-14)

That should make it clear that Christ's people, the Jews, didn't think the dead were alive somewhere else but were figuratively asleep in the literal death state. I don't believe that death changed to a continuation of life as a result of Christ's resurrection. I think that is a misunderstanding of scripture that's propagated by church doctrine. 

The thing about the Trinity is not only does it dishonor the Father, but it gives the false impression that Christ didn't really die and therefore wasn't really brought back to life which again goes right back to the lie in the garden (Genesis 3:4).

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)

I'm trying to present all this information without being offensive, but I realize that I'm probably upsetting some people. So I'm going to end this now. I'm sorry to have offended anybody. God bless you all.

[CHB]

What I was getting at in my earlier post was, if Christ was the first on who rose from the dead, as it says in, (Col. 1:18) who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. How could Moses and Elijah, Samuel and others have been first or rose before Christ? Even those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus crucifixion, they were resurrected before Christ.

CHB

[Tom]

I hear ya, and I agree. I also think somebody can be resurrected and not be vivified, in other words immortalized. I think only Christ was resurrected and immortalized so far.

[micah7:9]

What I was getting at in my earlier post was, if Christ was the first on who rose from the dead, as it says in, (Col. 1:18) who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. How could Moses and Elijah, Samuel and others have been first or rose before Christ? Even those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus crucifixion, they were resurrected before Christ.

CHB

:iagree: Moses, Elijah, Samuel, David  have not been converted.  :2c:

[lastpost]

I think I have seen helpful thoughts given by ew, rosered, shelia that 'The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.'

Add to this: "Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian".

The method of the Earth "time" of this little Earth, only came into being when the world was created through Christ.

The efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time - and was already in effect from the foundation of the world - it is only limited in man's mind by his thinking - man's thinking which seeks to limit the Lord God of all to man's own time, space and causation.

The Christ Manifestation as man, His Life and Death and Resurrection are for the benefit of humanity that they can grasp and understand a little something of the wondrous Love of our God, that He should be remembered by forgetful children who are quick to turn their hearts to stone.

With the Christ Spirit, one's heart can never turn back to stone.

Promising that with experience of the sacrifical Love that the Christ Spirit brings, one can know from experience that Christ's deep, deep sacrifical Love...

Always was before the world was created,
Always was while He walked in a body of flesh,
Always was once He had given up His Spirit on the Cross
Always will be and never will stop...

That's a burning, yearning deep sacrifical Love...constant, always, never failing, never stopping...

To even touch the hem of His Garment should convince any man or woman that the Christ Life cannot have an ending, it simply cannot cease - once the Christ Life has been breathed, the cold hard enemies the mind throws up are exorcised forever, never to return because the child is grafted to the Christ Life, real Life, living Life, ceaseless Life - and only the dead bury the dead.

[rosered]

 

To me only the vision was   showing us what to expect   ,  the coming of those risen   when Christ   freed   them  from the hold of death

     I do not think this was before hand  , Just showing  , that is what visions do   show what is going to happen shortly

[rosered]

I think I have seen helpful thoughts given by ew, rosered, shelia that 'The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.'

Add to this: "Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian".

The method of the Earth "time" of this little Earth, only came into being when the world was created through Christ.

The efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time - and was already in effect from the foundation of the world - it is only limited in man's mind by his thinking - man's thinking which seeks to limit the Lord God of all to man's own time, space and causation.

The Christ Manifestation as man, His Life and Death and Resurrection are for the benefit of humanity that they can grasp and understand a little something of the wondrous Love of our God, that He should be remembered by forgetful children who are quick to turn their hearts to stone.

With the Christ Spirit, one's heart can never turn back to stone.

Promising that with experience of the sacrifical Love that the Christ Spirit brings, one can know from experience that Christ's deep, deep sacrifical Love...

Always was before the world was created,
Always was while He walked in a body of flesh,
Always was once He had given up His Spirit on the Cross
Always will be and never will stop...

That's a burning, yearning deep sacrifical Love...constant, always, never failing, never stopping...

To even touch the hem of His Garment should convince any man or woman that the Christ Life cannot have an ending, it simply cannot cease - once the Christ Life has been breathed, the cold hard enemies the mind throws up are exorcised forever, never to return because the child is grafted to the Christ Life, real Life, living Life, ceaseless Life - and only the dead bury the dead.

:goodpost:

  Yes indeed its an endless Life       :thumbsup:

John 8      the greatI AM THAT I AM !!!  Before Abraham Was, I Am
...55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."



  THE  bread and wine being the same bread of Heaven and Blood   in Christ  back than ....


Hebrews  7  he Priest Melchizedek
7 Melchizedek [C a priest and king in the time of Abraham; Gen. 14:17–24; Heb. 5:6, 10; 6:20] was the king of Salem [C another name for Jerusalem, meaning "peace"; v. 2] and a priest for God Most High. He met Abraham when Abraham was coming back after ·defeating [L the slaughter of] the kings [Gen. 14:17–19]. When they met, Melchizedek blessed Abraham,

2 and Abraham ·gave [L apportioned/divided to] him a ·tenth [tithe] ·of everything he had brought back from the battle [L of everything]. First, Melchizedek's name means "king of ·goodness [righteousness; justice]," and he is king of Salem [C another name for Jerusalem], which means "king of peace."

3 ·No one knows who Melchizedek's father or mother was [L ...without father, without mother], ·where he came from [L without genealogy], ·when he was born, or when he died [L having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; C something unstated was assumed not to exist]. Melchizedek is like the Son of God; he continues being a priest forever [C Melchizedek's unmentioned genealogy in Genesis is, by analogy, like Jesus' eternal Sonship and priesthood].

4 You can see how great Melchizedek was. Abraham, the ·great father [patriarch], gave him a tenth of ·everything that he won in battle [the spoils/booty/plunder]. 5 Now the law ·says [authorizes; commands] that those ·in the tribe [L of the sons/descendants] of Levi who become priests must collect a ·tenth [tithe] from the people—their ·own people [L brothers (and sisters)]—even though ·the priests and the people [L they] ·are from the family [are also descendants; L have come from the loins/body] of Abraham.

6 [L But] Melchizedek was not ·from the tribe of Levi [L descended from them; v. 3; C he was not from the Levitical line of priests], but he collected a ·tenth [tithe] from Abraham. And he blessed Abraham, the man who had God's promises [Gen. 12:1–3]. 7 Now ·everyone knows [it is indisputable] that the ·more important person blesses the less important person [L lesser/inferior is blessed by the greater/superior]. 8 ·Priests receive a tenth, even though they are only men who live and then die [L In the one case, mortal men receive a tithe,...].

·But Melchizedek, who received a tenth from Abraham, continues living, as the Scripture says [L ...but in the other case, the one (receives the tithe) who is declared (by Scripture) to be alive]. 9 We might even say that Levi, who receives a ·tenth [tithe], also paid it when Abraham paid Melchizedek a tenth. 10 Levi was not yet born, but he was in the ·body [loins] of his ancestor when Melchizedek met Abraham [C the Levitical priesthood is considered inferior to Melchizedek's (and Christ's) priesthood, since Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek through his ancestor Abraham].

   Just awesome     !! :HeartThrob:

[lastpost]

I personally have no problem with the continuity of life, it is all Christ's life which He has saved from itself. I truly do not believe this is all dependent upon a beautiful human being passing away, which was necessary of course, as I wrote above, but that was a manifestation of what Christ is always doing and has always done - it is symbolical of Christ dying for His children all the time, from the time they were created. Christ's Love never stops and never started to become sacrificial at a certain stage because it always was and is sacrificial.

Sacrifical Love cannot stop being sacrifical Love - that is what it is, and that is what Christ is - Beautiful! Wonderful! Unthinkable! Oh Love of Christ, Love of Christ, Love of Christ - .......

[Shev]

I personally have no problem with the continuity of life, it is all Christ's life which He has saved from itself. I truly do not believe this is all dependent upon a beautiful human being passing away, which was necessary of course, as I wrote above, but that was a manifestation of what Christ is always doing and has always done - it is symbolical of Christ dying for His children all the time, from the time they were created. Christ's Love never stops and never started to become sacrificial at a certain stage because it always was and is sacrificial.

Sacrifical Love cannot stop being sacrifical Love - that is what it is, and that is what Christ is - Beautiful! Wonderful! Unthinkable! Oh Love of Christ, Love of Christ, Love of Christ - .......

Amen lastpost! Every truth is bound up in Christ Himself, being the very Truth Himself, and I love how your perspective on this is rooted in His reality.

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.  2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.  3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.  4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

I love the above passage, as it shows that we were raised with Christ, having died, and our life is hidden in Him because He is our life, and that when He appears, we must appear also!

[sheila]

 :banana: :banana: :banana:  Thank God for the gift of eloquence!

[marie glen]

"If, then, ye were raised with the Christ.." Col 3:1 and "did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus" Eph 2:6 are two instances where a different word [Strong's #4891-"rouse in company with")] is used from other "raise, raised"-Strong's #1453(waken one's faculties) and #450(stand,lift up)- And we know there are according to the Word two types of "death".. the one that is carnality/figurative, and the other which is a lack of life/living, no breath, etc.

old testament believers,
"....sleep with the fathers" "sleep in the dust" "lest I sleep the sleep of death" ps 13:3, all Old Testament but is carried over into the New, 1 Thess 4 - "those who sleep in Christ" and 1 Cor 15 "we shall not all sleep" -

"it is given unto men once to die and then the judgment" judgment is collective.. both at His return when the nations are divided as to goats and sheep, when He comes with fire and angels.. And the WTJ is collective not individual at each person's death.. is punishment or reward given at death, before judgment/trial/"decision"-strong's 2920-krisis-decision

"Some will wake to the resurrection of life, and some to the resurrection of krisis"/judgment/decision.. the resurrection of judgment...

From Rev 20 -
"and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If the saints live on after their death and before resurrection, what have they all been doing? Some for almost 2000 years now.. imo, it sounds very disorderly for such an otherwise orderly universe..

From John 6 - #1453(waken one's faculties) and #450(stand,lift up)
39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;
40 and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.'
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
54 he who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, hath life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day;

Also interesting, "sleep"

Romans 13:11 - "it is high time to awake out of sleep" Strong's #5258-spiritual torpor
and 1 Thess 5:6 - "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober." Strong's #2518-lie down, rest, fall asleep

1 Thess 4:14 "sleep in Christ" Strong's #2837-put to sleep, from #2749-lie outstretched (also used for appointed)
   :2c: :Peace2: :smile:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:   the Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst=camp of the Holy city He loves= those just passing through.........

    look at Jerusalem in the earth....a sign of the restoration/establishing..is not the little nation of Israel[as a physical sign in the earth]

  surrounded by her enemies.  Thou dwells in the midst of deception..........because the wicked compass about the righteous...therefore doth

  not sound judgement go forth.   satan released and goes forth=the falling away of truth] and decieves all the nations...Gog and Mag

   and surrounds [the camp] of the city He loves= those who are seeking the city not made with human hands=Jesus return/deliverance

  and the lifting up what was/is temporal to the immortal/incorrupt permanat realm.12 foundations/worlds in one eternal city..not dust of earth

   but precious stones[living stones raised up]

   it's been 2000 yrs since He ascended......what day is today?

[marie glen]

:thumbsup:   the Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst=camp of the Holy city He loves= those just passing through.........

    look at Jerusalem in the earth....a sign of the restoration/establishing..is not the little nation of Israel[as a physical sign in the earth]

  surrounded by her enemies.  Thou dwells in the midst of deception..........because the wicked compass about the righteous...therefore doth

  not sound judgement go forth.   satan released and goes forth=the falling away of truth] and decieves all the nations...Gog and Mag

   and surrounds [the camp] of the city He loves= those who are seeking the city not made with human hands=Jesus return/deliverance

  and the lifting up what was/is temporal to the immortal/incorrupt permanat realm.12 foundations/worlds in one eternal city..not dust of earth

   but precious stones[living stones raised up]

   it's been 2000 yrs since He ascended......what day is today?

The year's of our Lord A.D.? :smile:
..how blest we are to know it is God's will "that none should perish". I see cemeteries as gravestones as heads of the beds.. Seeds, God's beautiful garden. We cannot conceive of loved ones who have left us, as being gone.. perished.. This is like knowing that all atheists, deep within, know there is God.. It's just something that's known.

I think of true death/dying as total not being-ness.. to perish. But we don't "die".. we rest (whether in sleep or somewhere restful) and then we are raised..

one eternal city..not dust of earth

   but precious stones[living stones raised up]

:banana: :banana: how beautiful! :dsunny: