This is probably a very basic question, even childlike... that is because my children keep asking me this one and I honestly don't know how to answer it.
I looked up 'heaven' and as far as I know the Bible doesn't speak about 'going to heaven' when you die, just as it doesn't speak about 'going to hell' either.
Since dying is sometimes likened to 'falling asleep', I optioned that it might be like sleeping. Yet my 8 year old daughter found that frightening somehow (sleeping for sooooo long), and I was not sure about it in my spirit either. :dontknow:
well Jesus likened it to sleep also. But He also wakes us up!!!!!!!!
Here's a link about death, sis. http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html It's kind of a long article, but I think it is good information. What it boils down to is that death is a return. The body returns to the soil; the spirit returns to God; and the soul returns to the unseen state which it was in before being alive. The body is the material part of a human. The spirit is the power of life, action, and intelligence. The soul is the conscious experience that is the result of the combination of an organic body with breath or spirit. Scripture says the soul dies. So the story about folks going to heaven or hell when they die is just mythology supported by the doctrine of orthodox theology. Only Christ has been immortalized so far. Believers will be when we meet Christ in the air. Unbelievers will be when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons. All mankind will be saved; all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God; and God will be all in all. This stuff may be too much for your kids to understand though. The analogy of sleeping is a good one for them probably, and like Sheila said, remind them that Jesus will wake us up someday, and we'll always be with him after that.
I truly find this sad. I would tell children that when a person dies they go to be with Jesus. I personally believe to tell them otherwise is a degradation of Love and not in tune with the world that an innocent and [as yet] un-programmed child sees in the life-patterns of the world around them.
I believe that the test in everything is that if something does not come up to the highest standard of love, then it is not of the God who is Love.
I am fully aware of traditional thought which adheres to a literal reading of the sacred records, but I believe much has been dismissed in order to fit in with the traditional notion. I personally see plenty of hope...
Moses, used to mediating laws, talks with Jesus about His forthcoming decease (Luke 9:31). Many think this was a vision yet Peter finds Moses so real that he wishes to make him a tabernacle, therefore clearly being a witness to the return of Moses; but of course spirits do not need material shelter.
A messenger (aggelos) from another World addresses John, who is told not to bow to him as he is one of his own "brethren", a "fellow" servant. There is a clear indication that this spiritual being was at one time alive in the flesh on the earth because he declared he was a prophet (Rev. 19:9-11 & 22:9).
Christ, under the solemn circumstances of His physical death, tells a robber dying at His side (Luke 23:43) that he need not have to wait until a future time to be remembered by Him, but, the robber is told clearly, that he, the person to whom Christ was speaking, would be on that very day in "Paradise".
Peter (a witness at the Transfiguration), tells us that Christ preached to the "spirits" of "once wicked" people who were killed in the flood of Noah's time. This preaching was so that they might hear the Gospel of Love which Christ preached, so that they could live in accord with the laws of the Spirit (1Pet.3:18-20 & 4:6).
Christ, in order to fulfil Old Testament prophecy that He would "rise" from the "dead" "three days" after His passing, appears at that time and at other times, being very much the Master, the same Master who once sojourned the earth in the flesh. Traditionalists restrict Christ's power, and for some reason some find it difficult to comprehend that it was a simple thing for Christ to be able to both preach to the "spirits in keeping" and also to have the power to be elsewhere within the "three days" He took to reappear after "death", for instance, in the brighter spheres when He was to be with the robber. Christ made the whole universe - once the restrictions of the physical body are ended, being omnipresent is easy to understand.
Christ's story shows Lazarus and the rich man dying: "The beggar died...the rich man also died", and then with absolutely no sleeping or being unconscious for any length of time, shows them very much alive (Luke 16:19-31), an instant transition.
Again, Christ explains to the rationalizing Sadducees that they were "all wrong" about their concept of no existence after death. The Sadducees held that there was no Afterlife (according to Josephus). Christ tells them that their own Scriptures spoke of those whose physical bodies had lost life but who had obtained worthiness (v. 35) while alive, were really alive, indeed the same as angels (v. 36), because Moses named the Lord as being the God of the living fathers in contradistinction to the dead fathers: "...that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob (v. 37)". And to leave no doubt about this issue, Christ carries on to say: "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living (v. 38)".
NB: The word: "anastasis" means: 1) a raising up, rising; 2) a rising from the dead.
The primary Greek definition of the phrase which the Translators have rendered: "the resurrection from the dead (v. 35)" is "anastasis - ek - nekros", which literally means: "a raising up - out of - one that has breathed his last". A transition.
Love must be allowed to rule and the old traditionalist theories allowed to pass away.
the hour is coming..and NOW IS..when all those asleep in the grave will hear the voice of the son of God and rise..........
I agree last post. I once heard my neighbor years ago say....'I don't mind dying..but you just have to be gone for
so long!!!!! lest we forget..the changed in a twinkling of an eye...and that those that remain alive at His coming will not
precede those who have died.
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For[c] I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again. (Philippians 1:21-26)
He said 'I am the resurrection and the life" The Holy spirit say's...'You will not allow your Holy one to see corruption"
Who-so-ever believe in me.. shall never die..and if you do die,ye shall live,do you believe this?
he who hates his life in this world..preserves it unto the eternal..but he who loves his life in this world[and through fear of death remains
all their lives in slavery by thier fear of death] looses it[dies in the flesh to this world,so he may live unto Christ]
if ye shrink back in fear...I have no pleasure in ye. I always do that which PLEASES THE FATHER..
there is no more death O'Immanuel! Believing Unto the Salvation of Your Souls!!!!!!!
Not that I desire to be unclothed.......who is naked but he that is in the grave? no terrestial garment..no celestial garment.......
do you really think He that says'clothe the naked" will
expose the nakedness of their shame? No! God said...I will remove
the shame of my people.............who-so-ever believeth in Him shall not be ashamed.
But then,some will say........what about the unbelievers? well...when they hear His voice in the grave..they shall believe!!!!!!
and they shall confess with their tougne..and repent! For they shall hear what they had not heard..and see that which they
had not seen. the tares of unbelief shall He bind and burn and gather them into the barn of heaven>
Believers have different opinions about this. :) Nothing like stating the obvious, huh?
My take on it (and believing UR has not changed my view on this) I believe I am crucified with Christ nevertheless Iive but not I, Christ lives in me.
So the question then becomes does Christ die again or did he die once for all?
Now I`m not saying that I understand the dynamics of the power of his resurrection and his immortality as it applies literally now. -in me- yet somehow I believe that death has no power or authority over me, in Christ, and when this dust returns to the earth, should the Lord tarry, that I go to be with my victorious and loving Savior. Out of the body, with the Lord.
Nothing is gonna keep me from him.
Respectfully submitted to those who have a different view.
:)
well there are two wittnesses..Jesus AND the Holy spirit....the Holy spirit testimony has also been put to death..so to speak
in the earth..men began listening and preferring not the spirit of truth..in favour of doctrines of demons/traditions....the saints were
overcome..the beastly carnal/nature of man[of sin] putting their testimony to death in the earth. if satan is divided against
himself..his house can not stand[before the Lord in His presence]
so yes..those who once had tasted the free gift..then were overcome yet by the world...exposes Him to public shame.....
and we can see how His name is blasphemed by the churches and religions in the earth.......the beast shall hate the harlot
get out of her my people!
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on April 11, 2015, 11:51:35 PM
So the question then becomes does Christ die again or did he die once for all?
Ah, that's so very kind of you to say so in that manner.
Personally, I would have no Christ in my life if the dead are not raised to life. That is a literal fact with no reason but to say it plainly - and I know how strange it must sound to...well a lot of people I suppose - so to me it is so very ordinary to me with no enigma, so I do not mean to trample on anyone in my ignorance.
I see the Master Jesus shedding His Light in all directions, and His Light cannot be swallowed up by darkness - such a thing can never be. Goodness, when He says that those who believe in Him shall never die, I do not know how more clearly He could put it.
Blessings to you and all the wonderful people who frequent this gathering. I have been moved over the last few days by every single person who has spoken here, you are all so very special - and it is a privilege to feel the Christ in me burn when you give your offerings to Him and your neighbours.
I think, when we all die, if we do before we're snatched away, that the next thing we will be conscious of is being alive again in the presence of the Lord no matter how much time has passed, but why not tell kids the truth instead of confusing them with mythology that will have to be corrected later? And, if good people have gone to be with Jesus, where have the bad people gone? Sleep is used figuratively of death in scripture. So that's not untrue. I would rather have been told the truth, even if it was a simplified version, than the nonsense I was told when I was young. It just made me distrust the church when I learned the truth. I don't agree that telling kids something false shows more love to them. I mean you could rationalize it by saying that the dead have gone to be with Jesus because eventually they will be alive with Jesus, but, if anybody has an impression that death is another form of life, then how do you explain the resurrection? I think either you're dead or alive, and part of you isn't alive when the rest of you is dead. That's orthodox theology that is just deception. So I think you can say the dead went to be with Jesus, but they're not alive now. But then you're probably going to have to explain how they can be with Jesus but not be alive. You can tell your kids what you want, but I think the best thing to tell them is what scripture says even if you have to simplify it for them.
Scripture plainly says that what Peter experienced on the mountain was a "vision" (Matthew 17:9). So it isn't just what "many think."
The Greek "propheteia," literally "before-averment," seems to be able to be applied to humans and celestial messengers. Didn't Gabriel prophesy to Mary that she would be pregnant with the Christ child? (Luke 1:26-33)
The Greek "aggelos," literally "messenger," translated as "angel" in popular versions, can apply to humans or spirit beings, but I don't believe the "spiritual being" in Revelation was once human just because he said, "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" or "a fellow slave of yours am I, and of your brethren, the prophets."
There's no punctuation in the ancient manuscripts, and a small comma in translation makes a big difference in the story of what Christ said to the thief on the cross.
And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (Luke 23:43)
In other words, Christ was telling him "today" that he would be with him in "paradise," but Christ didn't say he would be with him in "paradise" today.
I think the "spirits" in 1 Peter 3:19 are the same beings as the "sinning messengers" in 2 Peter 2:4 and the "messengers" of Jude 6. I don't believe good people die and go to heaven to be angels as the popular mythology says. I think spirit beings, celestial messengers, are different creatures than humans. I think we will be immortalized in spiritual bodies in the future sometime, but that will happen when we're either snatched away while alive or resurrected and snatched away (1 Corinthians 15:42-46,51-54;1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
I think the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is one part of a five part parable, not about being "very much alive" when they're dead, but Christ is using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them. http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html
I think the issue with the Sadducees is they believed "there is no resurrection." I believe Christ was resurrected and vivified, in other words immortalized, but we will be resurrected and vivified at a later time sometime in the future. However, the popular mythology says that we're still alive when we're dead.
Scripture says the soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4,20).
I believe those who die are figuratively sleeping but literally dead (John 11:11-14).
I also believe scripture where it says the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
Thanks Tom, that was very interesting.
I believe that those who have convinced themselves (through training their own habits of mind) that they will "sleep" when they quit their physical bodies, will indeed sleep for various amounts of time, and it will take a lot of prayer from others to help them revive. So essentially, I believe it is not a good thing to train children to believe that they cease to have an awkened consciousness when they die.
Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."
(Fourth Gospel 11:23-27)
,many have failed to discern the body of Christ and eaten unworthily[ if ye speak worthy words I will put you in charge of my courts
[Joshua the High Priest in change of garments for priesthood] and have fallen asleep in death.
As I said, the dead are only sleeping figuratively, and I don't think prayer is going to "help them revive." That's only going to happen at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:51,52). Scripture says the soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4,20), and the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So I don't believe the dead have "awakened consciousness."
it says ..the soul that is sinning dies. but we are all double souled the outer man that perishes..and the inner man[secret person
of the heart/hidden in Christ/the Kingdom of the the love of the son]
even now..to live in Christ..we must put that old man to death figuratively..in order to do the will of God.........
the new creature in Christ gets the victory through crushing the head[mind] of the serpent..even though his heel be bruised
through the accomplishing of it.
the carnal man is dead because the spiritual is foolishness to him....therefore He knows nothing..where as we know Christ
and knowing Him is eternal life.
I prefer this translation.
"I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living. And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon." (John 11:25,26)
You have to discern which eon he's referring to. I think only three resurrections lead to immortality. Christ's was the first; those in the ecclesia, the body of Christ, come next when we're snatched away, and he meets us in the air; and then it will happen for the rest of mankind at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
I think we're all living souls, sis, and we all sin and are dying. Scripture speaks of the human as both being a soul and having a soul, but I don't remember reading about having a soul that dies and a soul that lives at the same time.
but Tom..He's been sowing His ecclesia in the earth continously ...and continously sowing and reaping all men..in each generation.
the final GREAT HARVEST IS COMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and even now the angels are pulling up the tares and binding them for burning!!!!!!!!
and gathering His wheat into the barn. do you not know..that when the wheat falls to the earth and dies....it bears much fruit in heaven?
sowing reaping..harvest..tares..wheat..barn
our outer man that perishes..is the soul that dies......yet our inner[spiritual man secret person of the heart] one soul is like
the body of the animal[flesh/blood. can NOT please God.terrestial] the other is celestial..is born of God and can not sin.
I SAY, EVEN NOW LOOK!THE FIELDS ARE WHITE FOR HARVESTING...the harvest is great..but the workers are few...beg the
master of the harvest to send out more workers...
men that work alongside the angels in this work..are the one hour workers...He keeping us through that hour of trial...
...the angels said ,;Lord,Thou planted good seed[God said it is good on the day He made man in His image and placed him in the earth]
from whence come the tares? THE LORD REPLIED,AN ENEMY HATH DONE THIS IN THE NIGHT[kingdom of darkness]
I believe death means no consciousness that will end when we're resurrected and immortalized. I think, as far as our consciousness is concerned, life may seem to flow continuously from the moment we die to the moment when we're truly awakened consciously immortalized because we'll be oblivious to however much time has passed while we've been dead. I think it's God's wisdom to give us the experience of death because it causes all believers to be made alive again together, and even all unbelievers will be made alive again together. That basically eliminates the time factor involved for all of humanity who existed at different times but will be living together from then on.
I think at death the body returns to the soil; the spirit returns to God; and the soul returns to the unseen.
well..that time factor you mentioned is this 'each in his own order' perfect in his generation
I think scripture speaks of death figuratively as sleep because folks knew the dead were unconscious.
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:20-24)
I think everything about the death state is speculation, but we have a choice about where we get our information about what we believe about it. I think scripture is the most reliable source of information, but I realize there's a broad spectrum of interpretation. I just offer my mine humbly. I don't claim to be an authority or to have all the answers. I just go by what I think scripture is saying to me.
My Catholic family thinks my mom and handicapped sister are angels in heaven now. I don't argue with them even though I don't believe that, but I believe I'll see them both again someday when we're all immortalized together.
I hope I haven't confused poor Abigail who we were trying to help.
Ecc 3:20 All are going to one place; All have come from the soil, and all return to the soil."
I hear ya, bro.
yes......that's what happens when the spirit of life leaves it. it is the spirit of life that makes the flesh appear alive.. that spirit
leaves and the flesh body is conscience of nothing[it is just dust of the earth,after all] written in the dust......
the firstfruits are those of the called..who have sit with Him in heavenly places through the spirit..while dwelling in their flesh
among their generations..in their death[upward call] they rise and are counted in among the first resurrection[1000 year reign]
those that belong to Him at His coming[He comes many times..in fact never left..I stand at the door and knock..if ye open
the door..I shall enter and sup with you[He has done this with all His annointed in each generation] He meets us in the clouds
..men of Galilee..why do you stand here looking up..this same Christ shall return in the same manner....and when ye see Him
face to face ye shall be just like Him...and when the disciples died..they too.....rose to meet Him just like He come down to meet them
in the clouds..[always a custom to go forth to meet those you were expecting] and they have always been with Him......
and they will come with Him when it is our time also...for every eye shall see Him coming on the clouds of heaven.
be like Him
I don't think any of those who died have risen to be immortalized yet except Christ.
what about the scriptures that speak of those resurrected and entered the city..and were seen of men.....? Mt 27;52
the tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs and
after Jesus resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
People were resurrected in scripture, but I don't think any were immortalized so far except Jesus, sis.
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16).
what do you think happened to them?..did they return to their tombs? I think it was most certainly the first resurrection ..holy people
that had died seeking that city not made by human hands. the better things had come..a better covenant..a better resurrection
v12 take hold of the eternal life unto which you were called.
I think all except Christ who were resurrected died again because Christ wasn't just resurrected. He was vivified, in other words immortalized, given life beyond death.
Where is that last verse I want to compare it with the Concordant Version?
well Jesus said 'I am the resurrection" so He didn't come 2000 yrs ago? 1 Timothy 6 verse 12.....
and He hath freely given unto us eternal life. He said 'the Father has granted me life in myself"/seed unless a kernal of wheat
fall to the earth and die..HE REMAINS ALONE..but if He fall to the earth and die[Christ did!] He beareth much fruit unto heaven.
I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE AND NO_ONE CAN SNATCH THEM FROM MY HAND.
I found it.
"Get hold of eonian life, for which you were called" (1 Timothy 6:12)
I don't think in terms of "eternal life" because I think the word "eternal" is misleading and not as accurate a translation as "eonian" which is the English form of "aionion," the adjective of the Greek "aion," a period of time not endless time.
It's the same story for the next quote because what I think is being promised is "eonian" life meaning life for the eons when we've been immortalized.
'I don't think in terms of eternal life " I DO!
I think scripture is concerned with the eons, and the only thing "eternal" in the scriptures is God even though the word isn't used. Some will argue about the Greek "aidios" in Romans 1:20, but I think it means "imperceptible."
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
[attachment deleted by admin]
Jesus said ;I AM THE WAY" and is the pattern Son...the one we are to be made in the image of. when He said' I am returning to
the Father' when He spoke about laying His life down...and we are to follow Him..hear ye Him..in Him I am well pleased..and
I ALWAYS DO WHAT PLEASES THE FATHER.....I look for the pattern of His life/resurrection/Glory to be ours.
I used to think about "eternal life" when I was a King James fan but not anymore.
how sad........the sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection either.
I think using the phrase "eternal life" confuses the issue because there are specific eons spoken of in scripture when specific things happen, and the eons will come to an end. We're not actually told about what happens after that except that we'll always be with the Lord, and we'll never die again. I trust God to make it a very amazing experience though.
I guess that's why they called them "SAD-you-see?"
I hope some of this information is helping Abigail.
I believe in the UPWARD CALL...the First resurrection....a Better resurection/through a better covenant......under the law there
was the resurrection back unto the earth[see cases of resurrection back to life in the flesh] even the Pharisee's believed in that one;
BUT WHEN HE CAME WITH THE BETTERCOVENANT>>>>>HE ALSO COME WITH A BETTER RESURRECTION FOR MAN.......
I attached a PDF file with some good information about "eternal."
[attachment deleted by admin]
well,we have certainly given her a lot to consider!
....and the Pharisee's FAR-I-SEE believed in the resurrection back to life in the flesh on earth.
but I'm a Fa[r]ther-I-See! lol!
The word "resurrection," from the Greek "anastasis," literally "up-standing," "has special reference to the body, which will stand up, while rousing refers to the soul, which will awake, and vivification refers to the return of the spirit." (Concordant Literal New Testament Keyword Concordance)
Vivification seems to indicate being immortalized too (1 Corinthians 15:22-24).
the people got upset when the resurrection of those from their tombs appeared...and thought somehow they missed out on the
resurrection. But God have them appear as a wittness unto them..of the resurrection...just as Jesus appeared unto different ones.
Most of the time it is unseen by our earthly eyes. But for us to know and believe and put to rest this awful fear of death in man..
and so that we would trustfully and confidently have the fear of death removed from us.
The King James just says "made alive," but I think we have to consider in what sense because we will be "made alive" beyond death, in other words immortalized. That's what most folks like to call "eternal life," but I think the word "immortality" is more accurate because I think only God has "eternal life," always was and always will be. We had a beginning. So we weren't always alive.
AWAKE! O'Zion..THY LIGHT HAS COME...shake yourself free of the dust..Rise up and put on thy Glorious[immortal] garment!
see! thick darkness cover the world..but the Lord Shines on thee!
Hollywood might say their stars are immortalized, but that's just hype. Someday there will be true immortality, and you won't have to be a movie star to get it.
It's been fun, sis, but I think I'm going to try to get some sleep now even though that ain't easy for me. I've got to go help my 90 year old dad early in the morning. God bless ya, and good night.
true about the immortality...better word for it......
I don't know how much longer this battery on this computor will last...if it goes..in our conversation...I'll be back later!
charger has a short so that's iffy
God Bless you,too,Tom.!
Good Morning.
I believe that the habits of the mind (how our thinking processes have been trained) are carried over with us to the Beautiful World that God has prepared for us - on an individual basis at the time of our physical death, there is no long unconsciousness but Jesus comes quickly to meet His children who have been eagerly awaiting to be with Him, i.e. the physical body is fit only for carrion but the spirit which is the real life returns to God.
I believe that a person who has trained his or her mind to believe that they will sleep at physical death, so-named, will find it very difficult to overcome a life-long habit of believing that they should be in a state of non-consciousness. Such an unfortunate state appears to others like a comatose state, and those others are in special service to pray in the Spirit of the Living Christ in order to help the "sleeper" realise that they should awaken, which often is difficult because the sleeper may be thinking deep down this is some trick of evil to wake them, ironically.
Therefore, I believe it actually matters what we have trained ourselves to believe will happen at physical death, and that it is dangerous to teach children that their consciousness becomes non-existent either until a time at the end of some eon, or never (i.e. functional Atheism).
The fact that the Bible has spiritual beings already in Another World who are not sleeping should point to the principle that life is going on all the time. That is my opinion.
Peace, Harmony, Joy.
This is a lil different perspective. Life is lived in time. Time has always been a veil. Death has always been a door. Jesus is the Door to the sheepfold, if we pick up our cross(die) we can enter through the door to aionian life. Those who try to enter any ather way(alive) are thieves and liars. Those who enter through the door(death) are children of the light and the Day will not take them like a thief in the night.
Awake O Sleeper, Arise from the dead, and the light of Christ will shine on you!
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.
Beloved, we know not yet what we shall be but we know that when He appears we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
And we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image with ever-increasing glory by the Spirit, who is the Lord
Christ in you the hope of glory
and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=45CD60F387E82358&resid=45cd60f387e82358%21223&app=PowerPoint (https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=45CD60F387E82358&resid=45cd60f387e82358%21223&app=PowerPoint)
I believe everyone who overcomes goes into the cloud of witnesses.
Quote from: sheila on April 12, 2015, 03:35:59 AM
what about the scriptures that speak of those resurrected and entered the city..and were seen of men.....? Mt 27;52
the tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs and
after Jesus resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
I believe they rose as a witness, then died to await for The Day.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 12, 2015, 01:06:50 PM
This is a lil different perspective. Life is lived in time. Time has always been a veil. Death has always been a door. Jesus is the Door to the sheepfold, if we pick up our cross(die) we can enter through the door to aionian life. Those who try to enter any ather way(alive) are thieves and liars. Those who enter through the door(death) are children of the light and the Day will not take them like a thief in the night.
Awake O Sleeper, Arise from the dead, and the light of Christ will shine on you!
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.
Beloved, we know not yet what we shall be but we know that when He appears we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
And we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image with ever-increasing glory by the Spirit, who is the Lord
Christ in you the hope of glory
and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=45CD60F387E82358&resid=45cd60f387e82358%21223&app=PowerPoint (https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=45CD60F387E82358&resid=45cd60f387e82358%21223&app=PowerPoint)
I believe everyone who overcomes goes into the cloud of witnesses.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Amen and Amen :dsunny:
I think spirit beings aren't subject to death like humans. That's why we're called mortals, and sometime in the future we'll be immortalized. That's also why only the Adversary, the wild beast and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons in the lake of fire, but mortals will be dead because the lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:10,14).
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Corruptible = decayed, that is, (by implication) perishable
Incorruption= undecaying
Immortality= deathlessness
Remember Him, while the silver cable is not yet pulled away,
And the golden bowl is splintered,
And the jar is broken at the fount,
And the rolling wheel is splintered at the cistern,
And the soil returns onto the earth just as it was,
And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it.
I believe that there is [present tense] a spiritual body and there is a natural (physical) body, and that the spiritual body co-exists with the mortal (physical) body, and that the mortal body ceases to have life within when the spiritual body is taken. If the owner of the body accepted the Spirit of Christ the Saviour in their life, the spiritual body [containing the spirit now joined to Christ] is raised in incorruption when the silver cable [of which the umbilical cord is symbolic] is pulled away, and heavenward it goes to the One who gave it life.
Glory be to the God who is Love.
I think we will have spiritual bodies when we are resurrected and immortalized sometime in the future, but it could happen at any moment.
"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:42-44)
Yes Tom, people believe in eschatological destiny in certain ways and they call to others who think in a similar way to abandon sin and evil. They are blessed by God, I believe, as they would not have listened elsewhere.
Where Christ has led me is to a place where I do not believe in the resurrection of the physical body in any manner, i.e. the resurrection of matter. Rather I believe in the resurrection from matter, the resurrection of the spirit. This also means resurrection of the spirit from physical beliefs and the freeing of the soul from the physical and earthy.
I certainly believe that there is a spiritual significance in everything, even a form of spirit as the fundamental cause of every material object. I do not believe a material body is ever revived, subject to the laws of material physics, for it could not function immortally so. I believe God does something else far more glorious than the probationary earthliness my spirit finds itself in - and I appreciated very much ew's vision, which gives me hope our leaders can read the Spirit in the parchment...
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=45CD60F387E82358&resid=45cd60f387e82358%21223&app=PowerPoint
Yet by ascribing immortality to a mortal being, in itself, is as yet a partial recognition of a Divine truth, a dim recognition of the vision of eternal life. As such, I believe the time is coming over the next few centuries when man as a whole will be separated from the material, slowly but surely, by the overwhelming power of the Holy Spirit and the message being pouring into this little world.
That is my opinion.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 12, 2015, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: sheila on April 12, 2015, 03:35:59 AM
what about the scriptures that speak of those resurrected and entered the city..and were seen of men.....? Mt 27;52
the tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs and
after Jesus resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
I believe they rose as a witness, then died to await for The Day.
I believe they are
alive in Christ and are with Him and doing the works the Day is JESUS CHRIST THIS NAME IS ABOVE ALL NAMES under heaven that IS salvation saving grace given , Jesus Christ is the master of the dead dead and living , making ALIVE from the dead , many do not get this part of the Cross and finished work of the Cross fully He is the POWER THE RESURRECTION LIFE raising up & bringing many to the LIVING GOD ,those not knowing the fullness of the cross , they are still looking though the glass darkly
Blessed is He who dies in the Lord from now on '' they rest'' from their labours and the works follow them , greater works shall you do because I go to the Father !! even back than those still under the LAW the moon and stars [shadow of turning to LIGHT AND DAY ] John 14
11"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.... the LIGHT OF THE WORLD
Those born of the incorruptible seed which is Christ [anointing ] are children of the DAY they may be still in a mortal body , but are so much more than flesh and blood
and those that are the clouds and witnesses are with Him always proven to be faithful and true to Christ Jesus , the 144 thousand are those as Christ being the temple of the living God built from the tribes of Israel those chosen JESUS CHRIST IS INCREASING daily and those that John the baptist are decreasing
Day star rises in your hearts [hidden man of the heart ]is Christ and those with the new name , white stone is part of the temple building , a pure heat that sees the LIVING GOD , MATT 5 ....for all live unto Him
There is no other agenda they have but being a fellow servant and of the brethren with the same witness the testimony of Jesus Christ ..
We are alive though the SPIRIT AND LIFE HID IN CHRIST and are not be seen with spiritual eyes as flesh and blood any longer
the ones gone on before have not proceeded before us , but are witnessing the works and power of Gods glory with us in the earth raising the dead back to life again from the dead to THE LIVING GOD Matt 10 , 7"And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out evil spirits . Freely you received, freely give. 9"Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,
the Kingdom of heaven is the realm of the LIVING GOD though Jesus Christ being the ladder being the door being the way truth and life etc ...
healing the sin sick, the lost and broken those dead in sin and miracles we are witnesses to increasing the KINGDOM by faith and grace of God though those mighty gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD :HeartThrob:
miracles =SIGNS THAT GOD IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD but the LIVING AND GLORIFY HIM IN THE EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN
the sign is Jesus being in the heart of the earth [ and the incorruptible ] seed WORD OF GOD is planted in the hearts of mankind to LIVE for God
and speak the truth in the love of God .. JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD = authority given the power and glory for ever more this is how when we see Jesus we see the Father and being complete /perfect in Christ you have both the SPIRIT OF CHRIST / DAY AND SPIRIT OF GOD/ LIVING being THE HOLY SPIRIT gathering of all in ALL ....... there will be nothing outside of GOD HIMSELF and if you can see this now you are doing well
.... well GLORY !!! :dsunny:
When we're immortalized, I think we will be changed into spiritual bodies that won't be flesh and blood like we have now. I also think it could be said that we came from spirit because God is spirit, and all came out of God. I also think it could be said that we will return into spirit because all will return literally into God.
[attachment deleted by admin]
I just wanted to add that many of Paul's writings expound on and go into great details about the experience he was having life and death
when He said , I die daily he was decreasing and the Lord Jesus Christ was increasing within his heart ,, Life and death are ours
we get both simultaneously at the same time , death of self as individual and gathered in Christ as a Whole or corporate working to salvation of all realm
All the scriptures finally come together in ways we never think possible , But with God all things are possible Matt 19 with Jesus explaining the rich man , just like the rich last day church they are being made poor that Christ is the gain and riches of God though faith in Him and the work of the Holy Spirit , this is all around us here and now to those whom believe ...
...25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"...
28 Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
For me the renewal of things was at the cross that Jesus was speaking of
now if we have to experience this Cross of Christ individually Him dying for our sins and acknowledging it , than consider the two thieves of the cross
the one whom says I am a sinner and deserve to die for my sins , but you are innocent , remember when we die [taking up our cross and following Him ] we will be with him in paradise this day !!
Its a metaphor to me as being spiritual in nature and those whom still look to the metaphysical are still looking though the glass darkly ,,,, being flesh and blood that does not inherit the kingdom of God but is still a work in progress , the kingdom will be built even in troublsome times
not by might but by MY SPIRIT says the Lord
this day is the new dawn and awaking of Jesus Christ in our hearts making you children of the DAY AND LIGHT OF THE WORLD IN CHRIST anointing of the HOLY SPIRIT , CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY , GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST
no longer I who lives but Christ in me ... the LAST DAY IS CHRIST IN THE FULNESS OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOD AND HIS WISDOM that is without end
Quote from: Tom on April 12, 2015, 05:46:11 PM
When we're immortalized, I think we will be changed into spiritual bodies that won't be flesh and blood like we have now. I also think it could be said that we came from spirit because God is spirit, and all came out of God. I also think it could be said that we will return into spirit because all will return literally into God.
Yes Tom the dead know nothing , its the alive in Christ whom KNOW GOD John 17
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3"
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4
"I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do....
the Cross to me is the turning point the turning around that death is no longer the hold on mankind by the power and work of the LORD JESUSCHRIST !!
WHO LIVES IN US and we are surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses those faithful and true that are with Him the FAITFUL AND TRUE ONE
:HeartThrob: and the LAST DAY a Day without end !!!!!!!!!!!!
Rev 21 The New Jerusalem
...22I saw no temple in it,
for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it,
for the glory of God has illumined it,
and its lamp is the Lamb. 24
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.... we see this spiritually , with healed spiritual eyes of understanding what the Spirit is saying the fulness of God is CHRIST COL 2
Alive in Christ
...8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10
and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;...
I KNOW I AM EXPERIENCING GODS GLORY IN THE EARTH as it is in heaven Matt 5 ,,,, i believe with all that is in me HE LIVES !!!!! :dsunny:
I believe Jesus Christ is here and lives as the HOLY SPIRIT INCREASES POWERFULLY AND WITHOUT A DOUBT , THE LIVING GOD IS REAL !!
By the same faith Abraham has we also consider our bodies of mortality dead , its the sin of this life , we are eagerly awaiting the Lord Jesus Christ to come again after the seed of Christ /faith was deposited in our empty tomb of a heart ,
when I was alive to the world I did not waiting to the Lord to come , but seeked those things that the world offered
But now that sin is dealt with by the Lord Jesus Christ because greater is HE who that is in you than in the world this is the LIVING WORD that breathes within our walls of salvation Isaiah 60 Future Glory for Zion the fulfillment of Isaiah 60 is described in Hebrews 12 & the revelation scriptures of Jesus Christ , you have come to ZION
...17"Instead of bronze I will bring gold, And instead of iron I will bring silver,
And instead of wood, bronze, And instead of stones, iron
. And I will make peace your administrators And righteousness your overseers.
18"Violence will not be heard again in your land, Nor devastation or destruction within your borders;
But you will call your walls salvation, and your gates praise.
19"No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory....
I believe with all my heart , this is why know one knows the time our hour because its done individually or clusters at Gods time appointed HIS CHOOSING THOSE OUT OF THE WORLD , those whom He seeks to WORSHIP HIM IN LIGHT AND LIFE SPIRIT AND TRUTH , AS JESUS SAYS JOHN 4
But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.
IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH IS THE END RESULT of all that flesh and blood temporal ending as corruption where evil dwells in
striving against sin in Hebrews 12 shows us the process of the fire of Gods consuming our flesh is ashes at His feet /teaching and the glory of being raised up in Spirit and truth is the glory of God forever
Very good posts. My offering:
When a person dies it is likened to sleep. Death is Sleep. Not death is like sleep BUT death is sleep according go God.
Death has two different aspects:
1. The ACT OF DYING.
2. The STATE OF BEING DEAD.
All have already, or will eventually, experience "the act of dying or termination of life. However those who die never experience the "state of being dead."
(Ecclesiastes 9:5)."For the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing..."
Man does not have an immortal soul. The dead DO NOT HAVE consciousness. The spirit of a person upon death returns to God who gave it.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The spirit in man has no consciousness unless it is united with a body, a spiritual body or a physical body.
(James 2:26)"For as the body without the spirit is dead . .
At death, the body dies and becomes useless to the spirit that inhabited it.
In other words the spirit in man can only be conscious if it is within, a part of, a living physical body or a living spiritual body.
Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness OF death either.
"The living KNOW... the dead know NOTHING." The dead don't know that they are dead. When a person dies, that person does not know that they are dead are dead! Not only will you never know that you are dead, but from your perspective you never even lost consciousness.
From our perspective we will never "know" what it is like to be dead. Oh we will probably die some day (assuming that Jesus Christ doesn't come first), but we will never know that we were dead; we will never know what it is to BE dead, or to BE unconscious.
But all would experience "dying." Most (albeit not all) people who die, experience dying, but they do NOT experience death itself. It is impossible for someone to experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. It is obvious by the abundant scriptural proof that all conscious thought and life-functions cease at death. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.
We may all go through the fear of dying or even the pain of dying, but there is no pain and no fear in death itself. No one who is presently dead is aware of it.
In Deut. 31:16, first part of the verse,. God prepared Moses for death with the following:
(Deut. 31:16). "And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall rest (sleep - AKJ) [Hebrew: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers..."
And concerning the death of Lazarus, the brother of Martha and Mary. When Lazarus was dead Jesus said:
(John 11:11 - 14)"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him up".
Jesus referred to death as sleep. Death in the grave is a sleep with no consciousness'. Jesus performed a miracle showing that He could awake someone from death and the grave. He has the power to do that. And He will bring life to the dead who are in Christ at His coming. This is the resurrection to immortality of God's elect. Resurrection into the Kingdom of God.
Sleeping in death is a way that God can set people aside for a little while. Centuries and millennia will pass for those who died and sleep, yet they have no knowledge of death. The billions of humans who have lived and died over the centuries are completely unaware of the passage of time. The interim period between the moment of death, when their conscious thoughts ceased, and the instant when they awake to life again at a resurrection does not exist for them. It will be as if they had gone to sleep and awakened without dreaming - the passage of time is meaningless to them.
Paul made the following statements in II Cor 5: 1-8:
From the CLV:
Chapter 5
1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens.
2 For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven,
3 if so be that, being dressed also, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we also, who are in the tabernacle, are groaning, being burdened, on which we are not wanting to be stripped, but to be dressed, that the mortal may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He Who produces us for this same longing is God, Who is also giving us the earnest of the spirit.
6 Being, then, courageous always, and aware that, being at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord
7 (for by faith are we walking, not by perception),
8 yet we are encouraged, and are delighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord.
It is interesting how some preachers of today's Christianity misrepresent this 8th verse. They read it as saying " We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord", thus supporting the immortality of the soul doctrine. Oh those misinformed preachers, if they only understood, the word is AND not IS, and tells us there is a length of time from the time one dies and to the time of resurrection.
Yes, Paul knew that once he died the next waking moment would be resurrected with a new body, a spiritual body.
(I Cor. 15:49). This will happen in an instant (from this physical life to the next spiritual life without missing a heart beat), in the twinkling of an eye, nonetheless, it would have to wait until "the last trump' (I Cor. 15:51 - 52). But to Paul from his perspective, it would only be but a moment in time.
Death is an enemy, but it will be abolished" (I Cor. 15:26 - The last enemy that will be destroyed is death) by the One who has already had victory over it. And although we will never experience being dead, we certainly experience the loss of our loved ones who have died, and our family and friends will experience loss when we die.
It very comforting to know that those who are dead do not experience the state of being dead. And we also who are alive, will never experience being dead. We may die before the return of Christ, but we will never experience being dead. From our own perspective, all that we will ever know is life!
Quote from: joeteekay on April 12, 2015, 06:30:47 PM
Very good posts. My offering:
When a person dies it is likened to sleep. Death is Sleep. Not death is like sleep BUT death is sleep according go God.
Death has two different aspects:
1. The ACT OF DYING.
2. The STATE OF BEING DEAD.
All have already, or will eventually, experience "the act of dying or termination of life. However those who die never experience the "state of being dead."
(Ecclesiastes 9:5)."For the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing..."
Man does not have an immortal soul. The dead DO NOT HAVE consciousness. The spirit of a person upon death returns to God who gave it.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The spirit in man has no consciousness unless it is united with a body, a spiritual body or a physical body.
(James 2:26)"For as the body without the spirit is dead . .
At death, the body dies and becomes useless to the spirit that inhabited it.
In other words the spirit in man can only be conscious if it is within, a part of, a living physical body or a living spiritual body.
Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness OF death either.
"The living KNOW... the dead know NOTHING." The dead don't know that they are dead. When a person dies, that person does not know that they are dead are dead! Not only will you never know that you are dead, but from your perspective you never even lost consciousness.
From our perspective we will never "know" what it is like to be dead. Oh we will probably die some day (assuming that Jesus Christ doesn't come first), but we will never know that we were dead; we will never know what it is to BE dead, or to BE unconscious.
But all would experience "dying." Most (albeit not all) people who die, experience dying, but they do NOT experience death itself. It is impossible for someone to experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. It is obvious by the abundant scriptural proof that all conscious thought and life-functions cease at death. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.
We may all go through the fear of dying or even the pain of dying, but there is no pain and no fear in death itself. No one who is presently dead is aware of it.
In Deut. 31:16, first part of the verse,. God prepared Moses for death with the following:
(Deut. 31:16). "And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall rest (sleep - AKJ) [Hebrew: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers..."
And concerning the death of Lazarus, the brother of Martha and Mary. When Lazarus was dead Jesus said:
(John 11:11 - 14)"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him up".
Jesus referred to death as sleep. Death in the grave is a sleep with no consciousness'. Jesus performed a miracle showing that He could awake someone from death and the grave. He has the power to do that. And He will bring life to the dead who are in Christ at His coming. This is the resurrection to immortality of God's elect. Resurrection into the Kingdom of God.
Sleeping in death is a way that God can set people aside for a little while. Centuries and millennia will pass for those who died and sleep, yet they have no knowledge of death. The billions of humans who have lived and died over the centuries are completely unaware of the passage of time. The interim period between the moment of death, when their conscious thoughts ceased, and the instant when they awake to life again at a resurrection does not exist for them. It will be as if they had gone to sleep and awakened without dreaming - the passage of time is meaningless to them.
Paul made the following statements in II Cor 5: 1-8:
From the CLV:
Chapter 5
1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens.
2 For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven,
3 if so be that, being dressed also, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we also, who are in the tabernacle, are groaning, being burdened, on which we are not wanting to be stripped, but to be dressed, that the mortal may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He Who produces us for this same longing is God, Who is also giving us the earnest of the spirit.
6 Being, then, courageous always, and aware that, being at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord
7 (for by faith are we walking, not by perception),
8 yet we are encouraged, and are delighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord.
It is interesting how some preachers of today's Christianity misrepresent this 8th verse. They read it as saying " We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord", thus supporting the immortality of the soul doctrine. Oh those misinformed preachers, if they only understood, the word is AND not IS, and tells us there is a length of time from the time one dies and to the time of resurrection.
Yes, Paul knew that once he died the next waking moment would be resurrected with a new body, a spiritual body.
(I Cor. 15:49). This will happen in an instant (from this physical life to the next spiritual life without missing a heart beat), in the twinkling of an eye, nonetheless, it would have to wait until "the last trump' (I Cor. 15:51 - 52). But to Paul from his perspective, it would only be but a moment in time.
Death is an enemy, but it will be abolished" (I Cor. 15:26 - The last enemy that will be destroyed is death) by the One who has already had victory over it. And although we will never experience being dead, we certainly experience the loss of our loved ones who have died, and our family and friends will experience loss when we die.
It very comforting to know that those who are dead do not experience the state of being dead. And we also who are alive, will never experience being dead. We may die before the return of Christ, but we will never experience being dead. From our own perspective, all that we will ever know is life!
Hi Joe ,
the Cross is appointed to all , we have to go though this ''baptism of the dead ''
if you note that the one whom says if you are the Christ save yourself and get me down off here
Did you notice this one is never ever mentioned again ? the dead KNOW NOTHING , THEY DO NOT KNOW GOD
the other was given Life and now knows God
the way of the cross of Jesus Christ is that HE IS WITH YOU and never leaves you again
Its is the ''sleep in Jesus'' , the rest of Gods people ... that rest is Hebrews 4 the sword / being the WORD OF GOD SHARP SWORD OF TRUTH dividing the soul/life of mankind who never knows God from the SPIRIT OF TRUTH , BEING THE HOLY SPIRIT that those who have tasted can never ever blaspheme!! or speak against in any sense of the WORD .... THIS GLORY BELONGS TO GOD ONLY BECAUSE SALVAION COME BY THE WAY AND TRUTH OF THE CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST
one is dead and the new one is born again to SERVE GOD though Jesus Christ , The mortal body is just the vessel used to contain what has been hidden in ... Christ is the LIGHT THAT COMES FORTH OUT OF THE CLAY VESSEL , KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE IS consuming the elements = stoicheion
a
ny first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universethe heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
the law and those under it are taken out of the way and are fulfilled in Christ !! JESUS CHRIST IS THE LOVE & LIVING IN GOD THE ONE TRUE GOD OF ALL THINGS MADE FOR HIM AND THOUGH HIM ROMANS 11 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For
from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. COLOSSIANS 1 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 since we heard of gyour faith in Christ Jesus and of gthe love that you have for all the saints, 5 because of hthe hope ilaid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in jthe word of the truth, the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as indeed kin the whole world it is lbearing fruit and increasing—as it also does among you, since the day you mheard it and understood nthe grace of God in truth, 7 just as you learned it from oEpaphras our beloved pfellow servant.2 He is pa faithful minister of Christ on your3 behalf 8 and has made known to us your qlove in the Spirit.
9 And so, rfrom the day we heard, swe have not ceased to pray for you, asking that tyou may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all uspiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as vto walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, wfully pleasing to him, xbearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 yMay you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for zall endurance and patience awith joy, 12 bgiving thanks4 to the Father, who has qualified you5 to share in cthe inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He dhas delivered us from ethe domain of darkness and transferred us to fthe kingdom of ghis beloved Son, 14 hin whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
The Preeminence of Christ
15
iHe is the image of jthe invisible God, kthe firstborn of all creation. 16 For by6 him all things were created, lin heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether mthrones or ndominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created othrough him and for him. 17 And phe is before all things, and in him all things qhold together. 18 And rhe is the head of the body, the church. He is sthe beginning, tthe firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For uin him all the vfullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and wthrough him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, xmaking peace yby the blood of his cross.
21 zAnd you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled bin his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith,stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation 7 under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Can you see the cross of Jesus Christ here as the old and new man are made one in Christ ? those under the law have died and are no more and the new man has been given Life in Christ ...........
I hear ya, bro, and, sis, I talked about this quote a ways back in this thread.
And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (Luke 23:43)
What I said was that there's actually no punctuation in the ancient scriptures, and the placement of the comma in a translation makes a big difference. I think Christ was saying that he was telling him today that he would be with him in paradise not that he would be with him in paradise today.
QuoteI hear ya, bro, and, sis, I talked about this quote a ways back in this thread.
And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (Luke 23:43)
What I said was that there's actually no punctuation in the ancient scriptures, and the placement of the comma in a translation makes a big difference. I think Christ was saying that he was telling him today that he would be with him in paradise not that he would be with him in paradise today.
I hear you Tom ,
but believe the last
Day is Jesus Christ and that Day is LIFE , no end
the new day is dawned and the night and shadow has past , being children of the day
its all in how you perceive ,realize or become aware or conscious of :icon_flower:
all is of God
Quote from: rosered on April 12, 2015, 06:53:18 PM
the way of the cross of Jesus Christ is that HE IS WITH YOU and never leaves you again
Yes, everything of Christ is simple (uncomplicated by man's mind) if Divine Love is allowed to guide:
John 11: 25,26
"Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me,
even if he should be dying,
shall be living."
No long sleeping or cessation of consciousness but the Divine promise of
always living.
"And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should
by no means be dying for the eon."
"By no means" = in no way, or by no method, or by no theoretical doctrine, or in any way whatever...
"by no means be dying for the aeon."
When Christ is experienced, Life is experienced, and Life never stops.
How wonderful is the Heart and Mind of God.
I guess we're all going to find out what death is really about one of these days. It seems just like a lot of other stuff in scripture that has different interpretations according to perceived literal vs. figurative language. Right now I think we're dying but will be immortalized for eonian life which involves the next two eons. I know some disagree, but that's the way I see it.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Tom on April 12, 2015, 08:08:09 PM
I guess we're all going to find out what death is really about one of these days. It seems just like a lot of other stuff in scripture that has different interpretations according to perceived literal vs. figurative language. Right now I think we're dying but will be immortalized for eonian life which involves the next two eons. I know some disagree, but that's the way I see it.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
THE DAY of the Lord is at hand /in POWER Testimony of the old and the new Jesus cHRIST OWN WORDS TELLS US HOW ITS DONE
A Judgment against Babylon
...5They are coming from a far country, From the farthest horizons, The LORD and His instruments of indignation, To destroy the whole land. 6Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man's heart will melt....
James 5:1
Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you.
Isaiah 2:12
The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled),
Isaiah 10:3
What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar? To whom will you run for help? Where will you leave your riches?
Isaiah 10:25
Very soon my anger against you will end and my wrath will be directed to their destruction."
Isaiah 13:9
See, the day of the LORD is coming --a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-- to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
Isaiah 14:23
"I will turn her into a place for owls and into swampland; I will sweep her with the broom of destruction," declares the LORD Almighty.
Isaiah 34:2
The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is on all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.
Isaiah 34:8
For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.
Isaiah 47:11
Disaster will come upon you, and you will not know how to conjure it away. A calamity will fall upon you that you cannot ward off with a ransom; a catastrophe you cannot foresee will suddenly come upon you.
Isaiah 61:2
to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,
Isaiah 65:14
My servants will sing out of the joy of their hearts, but you will cry out from anguish of heart and wail in brokenness of spirit.
Jeremiah 51:8
Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken. Wail over her! Get balm for her pain; perhaps she can be healed.
Ezekiel 13:5
You have not gone up to the breaches in the wall to repair it for the people of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the LORD.
Ezekiel 30:2
"Son of man, prophesy and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'Wail and say, "Alas for that day!"
Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near-- a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations.
Daniel 5:9
So King Belshazzar became even more terrified and his face grew more pale. His nobles were baffled.
Daniel 5:26
"Here is what these words mean: Mene: God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end.
Joel 1:15
Alas for that day! For the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.
Amos 5:18
Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD! Why do you long for the day of the LORD? That day will be darkness
, not light.Zechariah 14:1
A day of the LORD is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your
very walls.
THE MAN OF SIN is exposed in Adam all shall die and in Christ all shall be made alive
the law of sin is death and the Life in Christ, is made a new creature alive to the God of the Living
words do it no justice , It is a knowing and understanding given by the Lord Himself
Its like trying to explain colors to a blind man in my opinion
truly the dead to the Living God know nothing
the dead in Christ shall rise first , and the first shall be last and the
last shall be first 1thess 4
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
How did Paul know He was Alive at the time he wrote this ?
Was it because He understood , it was no longer him but Christ that was alive in and though Him that was alive to God of the living
we know he is mortally dead , yet he is claiming he is alive and remains
and just how does one perceive the coming of the Lord ?
How can Hebrews 9 be reconciled as , He comes a second time without sin ?
...27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,[judgment begins in the house of God ] you are the temple of the Living God etc ...
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, the Cross is our appointment, let the dead bury their dead YOU FOLLOW ME , take up your cross and follow me ...
will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. I know many believe its the resting in sleep of Jesus waiting to be made alive in Christ before the Living God , His example were the little girl
and the proofs are this , Jesus said I AM THE RESURRECTION AND LIFE AND LIVE FOREVER MORE
not dead but sleep in Jesus ...3So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."
4But when Jesus heard this, He said, "T
his sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it." 5Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus....
the sick many of you sleep 1Corinth 11 ...29For he who eats and drinks,
eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly 30
For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
Quote from: lastpost on April 12, 2015, 07:23:24 PM
Quote from: rosered on April 12, 2015, 06:53:18 PM
the way of the cross of Jesus Christ is that HE IS WITH YOU and never leaves you again
Yes, everything of Christ is simple (uncomplicated by man's mind) if Divine Love is allowed to guide:
John 11: 25,26
"Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living."
No long sleeping or cessation of consciousness but the Divine promise of always living.
"And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon."
"By no means" = in no way, or by no method, or by no theoretical doctrine, or in any way whatever...
"by no means be dying for the aeon."
When Christ is experienced, Life is experienced, and Life never stops.
How wonderful is the Heart and Mind of God.
:thumbsup:
men of Galilee..why do you stand here looking into the sky?[two men dressed in white stood beside them] This Same Jesus who
has been taken from you..WILL COME BACK IN THE SAME WAY YOU HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN.
EL-I_JAH.. EL=LORD I GOD=JAH. Will come in the SPIRIT AND POWER OF .
There is scripture that supports both views here. I use to think I knew the answer to dying and what happens after death but I am not so sure anymore. I do know this, when Jesus was resurrected he took his body with him because the only thing left was the clothes that covered him. Anybody have any thoughts about that?
The Baptist belief is, the good go to heaven when they die and when Jesus returns he will bring our spirits with him which will be reunited with our bodies, then we will be resurrected. That don't make a lot of sense to me. If the flesh profits nothing and we are already in heaven why put our spirits back into these bodies. Maybe they are suppose to be different kinds of bodies, I don't know? I pray we all will learn the truth of the matter.
Wish I knew all the answers to this subject.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 12, 2015, 09:20:41 PM
There is scripture that supports both views here. I use to think I knew the answer to dying and what happens after death but I am not so sure anymore. I do know this, when Jesus was resurrected he took his body with him because the only thing left was the clothes that covered him. Anybody have any thoughts about that?
The Baptist belief is, the good go to heaven when they die and when Jesus returns he will bring our spirits with him which will be reunited with our bodies, then we will be resurrected. That don't make a lot of sense to me. If the flesh profits nothing and we are already in heaven why put our spirits back into these bodies. Maybe they are suppose to be different kinds of bodies, I don't know? I pray we all will learn the truth of the matter.
Wish I knew all the answers to this subject.
CHB
:icon_flower:
Yes CHB , I agree with you :iagree: we speak what we know JOHN 310Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11"Truly, truly, I say to you,
we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
the testimony of Jesus Christ is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY ... :dsunny:
12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?...
What of those grave clothes left behind and the kerchief all by itself ?
and How do we become further clothed in Christ ?
1Corinth 15 what does it mean to die ?
What dies mortality ? earthly things ?
or is it also the flesh bodies full of corruption
By faith Abraham considered his own body as good as dead already Romans 4
...18In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken
, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."
19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief
but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,... for me those born of faith are Abraham's children and are the seed of promise given it IS CHRIST the immortal seed promised of God that is true and the children of the DAY OR THE LIGHT OF CHRIST SHINING in the world because the FATHER AND SON ARE THEIR LIGHT
TO GLORIFY GOD IN THE EARTH as it is in heaven
children of the day are the promises given to By God ... the darkness has past and the drunkenness of rioting is over , the peacemakers are the children of God who can see HIM WITH THE PURE HEART THAT GOD IS IN THERE DOING THE WORKS AS PROMISED BY THE INCREASE OF GOD S SPIRIT 7 FOLD [ALL THE DAYS AS ONE NEW DAY ]
1Thess 5 The Day of the Lord
...4But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so t
hen let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. THE two thieves on the cross , the man of sin is on the left and left with nothing ,there is no more mention of him and the other man the new man in Christ is with the LORD JESUS CHRIST
Hi Rose,
I have a question, why wasn't the flesh body of Jesus left behind? You can go to any grave yard in the world and dig up anyone and you will find a body. Why didn't Jesus leave his body behind?
CHB
Zeal for Thy house has consumed me. You must eat my flesh and drink my blood. The passover Lamb was to be consumed.......
....and I saw what looked like a Lamb that had been slaughtered..standing in the midst of the throne,encircled by the four living creatures
and the elders[Rev 5;6]
and if we did know Him after the flesh..we certainly know Him so no longer.....
Thou hast prepared a body for me. the life in that kernal of wheat that fell to the earth and died is in His many membered body.
IT IS NOT GOOD FOR THE MAN TO BE ALONE. IN the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God
He was with God in the beginning...Through Him all things were made;without Him nothing was made. In Him was life..and that
life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness..but the darkness has not understood it.
Quote from: CHB on April 12, 2015, 10:07:41 PM
Hi Rose,
I have a question, why wasn't the flesh body of Jesus left behind? You can go to any grave yard in the world and dig up anyone and you will find a body. Why didn't Jesus leave his body behind?
CHB
Hi CHB , great question you have , I also have wondered and still seeking the truth in His Word , when you see the transfiguration of Christ in His glorified state were not the others no longer seen but Christ alone ?
But Gods promise is a sure thing and when He said I will not allow my HOLY ONE to see corruption , He was serious
We have the accounts of where the Lord was seen by his gathered believers so we know the tomb was empty and HE HAS RISEN just as it was prophesied long ago
when you read the valley of dry bones you have the account of Israel and when a body was given , for me I see this as the promise of God in Matthew 27
many in their graves also received the promise though they died in faith believing they would rise again with
Christ being that very SIGN standard and proof
...51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection
they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
Here is the thing that helped me the most to believe that JESUS CHRIST IS THE SIGN OF BELIEVERS ITS A NAME AND TITLE but we know Jesus is everything
the was and is and will be the ALPHA and OMEGA beginning and end
When they taught the resurrection had already passed , it was a huge mistake not knowing the power of God or His WORD because we know that the Lord Jesus Christ is ALWAYS ,
ALWAYS IS was and will be the resurrection and Life
and they stumble now thinking it is far off , some other time or eon and age , just as than thinking it was over and done with ...
When JESUS SAID THE TIME IS NOW HE WAS DECLARING A TRUTH TO ALL WHOM BELIEVE IN HIM
HIS TESTIMONY IS EAT MY BODY AND DRINK MY BLOOD THAT YOU MAY HAVE LIFE IN YOU
John 6 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54"
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
So the Lamb of God is the sacrifice for the sin of all mankind and the Last Day is the Day of the Lord something many have gone though or have not gone though yet ..
In my most humble opinion we focus on being flesh and blood to much and are to not know anyone after the flesh any longer not even Jesus Christ Himself , He was conceived of Holy Spirit and that is what remains..........
But in my understanding Jesus Christ was given a body prepared for Him by the Father and come in the flesh , and now does come in our own flesh by the power of God and His Spirit of truth as a sign and witness to the glory of God , no one can ever say they done anything to have this gift , its all the work of God
Jesus was raised from the dead. He died, and then He was raised. He appeared in His physical body, He ate fish with His disciples. He was not raised as a spirit only. He was raised as a man who had died, and now lived, through resurrection. We are all awaiting our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Death only came because of sin. Jesus conquered sin for all, now all will be resurrected. The point is not the body. The body is just a tent- but it is the tent God has given. We don't know what the resurrected body will be capable of, but whatever it is capable of, it will be the spirit in the body that is the source of the glory, whatever glory that may be.
Jesus said, "In the resurrection they will be like the angels."
The resurrection of the body is an important part of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and His triumph over sin on our behalf.
Why did God create the physical universe? As a habitation. A dwelling place for beings, the heavens and the earth and under the earth. We await a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness.
But beyond the "whys" there is the simply "is". The What is dom of God, His wisdom and His whysdom :o)
Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.
I think people are either dead or alive. Some say you can be alive when dead, but I don't believe that. I also think the dead and the living will someday be immortalized like Christ was. I think Christ appeared to his disciples after his resurrection in his spiritual body that was capable of overcoming the force of gravity as scripture says ours will when we're snatched away to meet him in the air. I think Christ was resurrected in his body because the body is how we appear in this material world, but we will be changed when we're immortalized in our spiritual bodies just as he was. Before that we may die, and, if so, our bodies will return to the soil. But God has the power to give life to the dead, and so I think those who die before they're immortalized will be raised in their bodies just as Christ was but will be changed just as he was. Despite what some here say, I don't believe that has happened yet, but I believe it will.
Acts 13 34"As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay,
He has spoken in this way: 'I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.'
35"Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.' 36"For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay
;36 [L For; Now] David ·did God's will [served God's purpose] during his ·lifetime [L generation]. Then he ·died [L slept; C a euphemism for death] and was ·buried [L placed] beside his ·ancestors [L fathers], and his body ·experienced [L saw] ·decay [corruption] in the grave.
37 But the One God raised from the dead did not ·experience [L see] ·decay [corruption]. 38 [L Therefore] ·Brothers [L Men, brothers], ·understand what we are telling you [know this]: ·You can have forgiveness of your sins [L Forgiveness of sins is announced to you] through ·Jesus [L this man]. 39 The law of Moses could not ·free you from your sins [justify you; make you righteous]. But through Jesus everyone who believes is ·free from all sins [justified; made/declared righteous]. 40 [L So; Therefore] ·Be careful [Watch out]! Don't let what the prophets said happen to you:
41 '·Listen [L Look; T Behold], you ·people who doubt [scoffers; mockers]!
·You can wonder [Be amazed], and then ·die [L perish; vanish].
I ·will do something [L am working a work] in your ·lifetime [L days]
that you won't believe even when you are told about it [Hab. 1:5]!'"
no man recognized JESUS with natural eyes ...
Luke 24 25 Then Jesus said to them, "·You are foolish [L O foolish ones] and slow [L in heart] to believe everything the prophets said.
26 ·They said [L Was it not necessary...?] that the ·Christ [Messiah] must suffer these things before he enters his glory." 27 Then starting with what Moses and all the prophets [C a way of referring to the whole Old Testament] had said about him, Jesus began to explain everything that had been written about himself in [L all] the Scriptures.
28 They came near the town ·of Emmaus [L to which they were going], and Jesus acted as if he were going farther. 29 But they ·begged [urged] him, "Stay with us, because it is late; it is almost night." So he went in to stay with them.
30 When Jesus ·was at the table [L reclined; C the posture of a formal meal] with them, he took some bread, ·gave thanks [blessed it], ·divided [broke] it, and gave it to them [C Jesus, the guest, functions like the host in a Eucharist-like meal]. 31 And then, ·they were allowed to recognize Jesus [L their eyes were opened]. But when they saw who he was, he disappeared. 32 They said to each other, "·It felt like a fire burning in [L Didn't our hearts burn within...?] us when Jesus talked to us on the road and ·explained [opened] the Scriptures to us."
33 So ·the two followers [L they] got up ·at once [L the same hour] and went back to Jerusalem. There they found ·the eleven apostles [L the Eleven] and others gathered. 34 They were saying, "The Lord really has risen from the dead! He showed himself to Simon."
35 Then ·the two followers [L they] told what had happened on the road and how they recognized Jesus when he ·divided [broke] the bread.
Quote from: Tom on April 13, 2015, 12:32:57 AM
I think people are either dead or alive. Some say you can be alive when dead, but I don't believe that. I also think the dead and the living will someday be immortalized like Christ was. I think Christ appeared to his disciples after his resurrection in his spiritual body that was capable of overcoming the force of gravity as scripture says ours will when we're snatched away to meet him in the air. I think Christ was resurrected in his body because the body is how we appear in this material world, but we will be changed when we're immortalized in our spiritual bodies just as he was. Before that we may die, and, if so, our bodies will return to the soil. But God has the power to give life to the dead, and so I think those who die before they're immortalized will be raised in their bodies just as Christ was but will be changed just as he was. Despite what some here say, I don't believe that has happened yet, but I believe it will.
I believe it has happened already to some of our loved ones TOM !! I really do , I just do and you can think I am crazy for thinking that way
but they have risen in Christ .. and that just may be me for now and some other who believe in the same manner
Some will not taste death till they see the Lord coming in power
and some whom believe shall never see death just as the scriptures states
John 11 ...25Jesus said to her,
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26
and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" 27She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God,
even He who comes into the world."...
some standing here taste death Luke 9 Take Up Your Cross
...26"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27"
But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." now Jesus Christ has tasted death for every man Heb 2 8YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him,
He left nothing that is not subject to him.
But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
9
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. 10For it was fitting for Him,
for whom are all things, and through whom are all things,
in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings....
I think the preferred translation of John 11:26 referred to deceives by saying "never" because a more accurate translation makes it obvious that's not what's actually said. When an eon, a period of time, is distorted into endless time, it changes the whole story. That's why I don't read the King James Version anymore.
"And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon." (John 11:26 CLNT)
I think, when Christ uses the phrase "for the eon" as he does in this verse and elsewhere, he's talking about the next eon, the Millennium, when he returns, and Israel will be regenerated spiritually.
I used to be a die hard King James fan until I became aware of the translation problems, and, after I switched to Young's Literal Translation, things began to become clearer and make sense. Then I found out the Concordant Version is even more accurate than Young's Literal Translation. Some folks cling to their King James thinking it's the best because it's the most popular or because they like the poetic language, but comparison with other versions and an ultra-literal interlinear translation make it obvious that the King James is not an accurate translation. Just a few mistranslated words in the King James Version are all that's necessary to make orthodox theology seem to be true, but I don't believe the King James Version or orthodox theology anymore.
"But the serpent said to the woman: Not to die shall you be dying." (Genesis 3:4)
"Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence, and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus, who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:16-18)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Tom on April 13, 2015, 12:32:57 AM
I think people are either dead or alive. Some say you can be alive when dead, but I don't believe that. I also think the dead and the living will someday be immortalized like Christ was. I think Christ appeared to his disciples after his resurrection in his spiritual body that was capable of overcoming the force of gravity as scripture says ours will when we're snatched away to meet him in the air. I think Christ was resurrected in his body because the body is how we appear in this material world, but we will be changed when we're immortalized in our spiritual bodies just as he was. Before that we may die, and, if so, our bodies will return to the soil. But God has the power to give life to the dead, and so I think those who die before they're immortalized will be raised in their bodies just as Christ was but will be changed just as he was. Despite what some here say, I don't believe that has happened yet, but I believe it will.
I agree that people are alive or dead. I just think that Jesus meant what He said when He said the that believes in me has passed from death unto life. But I think there is definitely room for interpretation as to how that works out in time, which is the night, versus the Day, which is the full awakening, and I have respect for your view as well, since I think it is seen through a glass darkly.
I think time is surrounded by eternity, which is why Christ could step into history as a theophany before His incarnation(again, my opinion). Sometimes I think all the awakening of the dead occurs at two moments, the first resurrection and the second resurrection, and that no time passes between the death of a believer and their awakening, or, resurrection, because they have, in Christ, the Alph and Omega, stepped beyond the influence of time. But from the time side, it is seen as "sleep", in my view, while some brothers and sisters see it as dead, and ceasing to exist.
Verses like those in Hebrews 12, however, make me lean towards agreement with Roses view- but not in a way that I would ever care to debate.
It is one of several paradoxes over which solid believers, theologians and scholars disagree.
"All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me"
Jesus Christ has all power everywhere - ALL power. Jesus was not here to display His Power, not in man's way of thinking.
His followers had seen Him beaten and put to a real human physical death. It would be hard for them to believe He lived after death. How should He prove to them He was alive? By appearing as a Being as bright as a thousand suns? No, He would be the Person they knew.
When making appearances, His followers are afraid...
"Then Jesus said to them, 'Do not be afraid. Go tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.' "
"they were startled and terrified and thought that they were seeing a ghost. Then he said to them, "Why are you troubled?"
He was always loving to His beloved followers - Love always came first because Love is His Nature. He comforted them first. They had to believe He was alive after death for the Plan to go forward.
"But these are written that you may (come to) believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name."
Some things are recorded that humans simply cannot do.
"Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them"
"their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight"
He was willing to manifest in different forms.
"Yet after these things He was manifested in a different form to two of them walking"
This all makes perfect sense, how else would the records be written? This is about planet Earth with human beings on it in the flesh. The Christ came as a human for humans.
Peace and Joy!
I think death is the absence of life, but it can be portrayed figuratively as sleep. I also think the perception of time can be easily distorted. I think God uses death to synchronize all the body clocks of mankind that have lived and died through the eons to the beginning of our new life which will be beyond death, and I think we'll probably even perceive time, space, and matter differently then. I've said before that being roused to immortality may seem to our consciousness as if no time has passed at all even if we've been dead for thousands of years, but I don't think that means we will actually have still been alive all that time.
I have heard that when the dead are raised[the earth must give back her dead] that the earth gives them back in the form[appearance] that
she recieved them..in order that they may be reckognized as once dead,and resurrected. And then after that they may take on any form
they please.
My biggest problem with this thinking is bypassing the Cross of Jesus Christ and Him crucified , Tom and the finished work he done
What good is it if the dead are not raised ? 1COR 15 31I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me?
If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.
33Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."...
ROMANS 14 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord;
therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother?
Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
I do believe those are being judged as to the left and right hand of God now ...
For me only. I have more of the urgency to believe the time is now and this other ages and eons man has built upon we know the days of our flesh is for suffering
is great cause for concerns , I believe there is a gathering into Christ going on and its spoken about as seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling
PHIL 2 Shining as Stars
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
no man knows , but the SPIRIT AND LIFE does and that is the divisions Christ come to do LUKE 12 49 THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE DIVIDING THE TONGUES
47 "The ·servant [slave] who knows what his master wants but is not ·ready [prepared], or who does not do what the master wants, will ·be beaten with many blows [beaten severely]! 48 But the servant who does not know what his master wants and does things that should be punished will be beaten ·with few blows [lightly; C a metaphor for judgment]. From everyone who has been given much, much will be ·demanded [required]. And from the one trusted with much, much more will be expected.
Jesus Causes Division
49 "I came to ·set [bring; cast] fire to the world, and I wish it were already ·burning [kindled]! 50 I have a baptism [C a metaphor for suffering, portrayed as an overwhelming deluge] ·to suffer through [L to be baptized with], and I feel very ·troubled [distressed] until it is over. 51 Do you think I came to give peace to the earth? No, I tell you, I came to ·divide it [bring division]. 52 [L For] From now on, a ·family [L house] with five people will be divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 They will be divided: father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law [Mic. 7:6]."
Understanding the Times
54 Then Jesus said to the ·people [crowds], "When you see clouds coming up in the west, [L immediately] you say, 'It's going to rain,' and [L so; thus] it happens. 55 When you feel the wind begin to blow from the south [C the desert], you say, 'It will be a hot day,' and it happens. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to ·understand [interpret] the appearance of the earth and sky. Why don't you ·understand [know how to interpret] ·what is happening now [this present time; C the time of the coming of the Kingdom]?
I don't know how different we'll look, but I think we're going to feel a whole lot better when we're immortalized.
Who said "the dead aren't raised?"
I'm not SAD-you-see?
I'm just saying that nobody's been immortalized yet but Christ, but our time is coming.
Quote from: joeteekay on April 12, 2015, 06:30:47 PM
Very good posts. My offering:
When a person dies it is likened to sleep. Death is Sleep. Not death is like sleep BUT death is sleep according go God.
Death has two different aspects:
1. The ACT OF DYING.
2. The STATE OF BEING DEAD.
All have already, or will eventually, experience "the act of dying or termination of life. However those who die never experience the "state of being dead."
(Ecclesiastes 9:5)."For the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing..."
Man does not have an immortal soul. The dead DO NOT HAVE consciousness. The spirit of a person upon death returns to God who gave it.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The spirit in man has no consciousness unless it is united with a body, a spiritual body or a physical body.
(James 2:26)"For as the body without the spirit is dead . .
At death, the body dies and becomes useless to the spirit that inhabited it.
In other words the spirit in man can only be conscious if it is within, a part of, a living physical body or a living spiritual body.
Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness OF death either.
"The living KNOW... the dead know NOTHING." The dead don't know that they are dead. When a person dies, that person does not know that they are dead are dead! Not only will you never know that you are dead, but from your perspective you never even lost consciousness.
From our perspective we will never "know" what it is like to be dead. Oh we will probably die some day (assuming that Jesus Christ doesn't come first), but we will never know that we were dead; we will never know what it is to BE dead, or to BE unconscious.
But all would experience "dying." Most (albeit not all) people who die, experience dying, but they do NOT experience death itself. It is impossible for someone to experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. It is obvious by the abundant scriptural proof that all conscious thought and life-functions cease at death. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.
We may all go through the fear of dying or even the pain of dying, but there is no pain and no fear in death itself. No one who is presently dead is aware of it.
In Deut. 31:16, first part of the verse,. God prepared Moses for death with the following:
(Deut. 31:16). "And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall rest (sleep - AKJ) [Hebrew: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers..."
And concerning the death of Lazarus, the brother of Martha and Mary. When Lazarus was dead Jesus said:
(John 11:11 - 14)"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him up".
Jesus referred to death as sleep. Death in the grave is a sleep with no consciousness'. Jesus performed a miracle showing that He could awake someone from death and the grave. He has the power to do that. And He will bring life to the dead who are in Christ at His coming. This is the resurrection to immortality of God's elect. Resurrection into the Kingdom of God.
Sleeping in death is a way that God can set people aside for a little while. Centuries and millennia will pass for those who died and sleep, yet they have no knowledge of death. The billions of humans who have lived and died over the centuries are completely unaware of the passage of time. The interim period between the moment of death, when their conscious thoughts ceased, and the instant when they awake to life again at a resurrection does not exist for them. It will be as if they had gone to sleep and awakened without dreaming - the passage of time is meaningless to them.
Paul made the following statements in II Cor 5: 1-8:
From the CLV:
Chapter 5
1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens.
2 For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven,
3 if so be that, being dressed also, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we also, who are in the tabernacle, are groaning, being burdened, on which we are not wanting to be stripped, but to be dressed, that the mortal may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He Who produces us for this same longing is God, Who is also giving us the earnest of the spirit.
6 Being, then, courageous always, and aware that, being at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord
7 (for by faith are we walking, not by perception),
8 yet we are encouraged, and are delighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord.
It is interesting how some preachers of today's Christianity misrepresent this 8th verse. They read it as saying " We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord", thus supporting the immortality of the soul doctrine. Oh those misinformed preachers, if they only understood, the word is AND not IS, and tells us there is a length of time from the time one dies and to the time of resurrection.
Yes, Paul knew that once he died the next waking moment would be resurrected with a new body, a spiritual body.
(I Cor. 15:49). This will happen in an instant (from this physical life to the next spiritual life without missing a heart beat), in the twinkling of an eye, nonetheless, it would have to wait until "the last trump' (I Cor. 15:51 - 52). But to Paul from his perspective, it would only be but a moment in time.
Death is an enemy, but it will be abolished" (I Cor. 15:26 - The last enemy that will be destroyed is death) by the One who has already had victory over it. And although we will never experience being dead, we certainly experience the loss of our loved ones who have died, and our family and friends will experience loss when we die.
It very comforting to know that those who are dead do not experience the state of being dead. And we also who are alive, will never experience being dead. We may die before the return of Christ, but we will never experience being dead. From our own perspective, all that we will ever know is life!
I believe you spoke well :dsunny: Oh happy day...He Is Risen!
Death is a return.
"I know that You are turning me back to death, To that house appointed for all the living." (Job 30:23)
The body returns to the soil.
"In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." (Genesis 3:19)
The spirit, the imperceptible power of life, returns to God.
"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
The soul returns to the "unseen."
"The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim." (Psalms 9:17)
"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27)
"Perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:31)
It is not obvious to me that Christ only is immortalized, since there was a first fuits resurrection that came out of the graves the day He was crucified. Ther also was someone who met John in His revelation, saying, "Don't bow to me, I am of your brothers the prophets".
Also,Hebrews 12
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 [a]fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God......
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of [h]angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
2 Corinthians 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
There are many indicators that some of the spirits of men who have died are present with the Lord. In a wide house there are many vessels, some for noble, some for ignoble use.
God is not boxed in by our paradigms, and usually wherever there is a paradox in the word, there are exceptions to somebodies rules. :o)
It is far from scripturally obvious, unless we only read the words that support our position.
We've talked about this scripture before and disagreed on who immortality applies to. I said Christ, and you said the Father. I think "immortality" is what mortals will experience when we're changed just as happened to Christ.
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
I think this scripture describes the 3 step process of all mankind being vivified with Christ being the first, believers next when we're snatched away to meet Christ in the air, and unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
No much to ad except more assumption, speculation, and interpretation and of course orthodox theological pillar thought. Far as I can see death has been defeated.... yet it is what is awaited. :Peace2:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 13, 2015, 04:40:58 AM
No much to ad except more assumption, speculation, and interpretation and of course orthodox theological pillar thought. Far as I can see death has been defeated.... yet it is what is awaited. :Peace2:
Thanks Micah :thumbsup:
Yes, I agree Micah. This is one of those issues where scriptures can be stacked and shuffled, either way, but it isn't necessary because the key thing, the message of the gospel is that Jesus Christ died to reconcile and restore all.
As in Adam all men died, so also in Christ shall all men be made alive, each in his own order.
For that we can all praise God together in one mind and one accord! :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 13, 2015, 05:48:00 AM
Yes, I agree Micah. This is one of those issues where scriptures can be stacked and shuffled, either way, but it isn't necessary because the key thing, the message of the gospel is that Jesus Christ died to reconcile and restore all.
And what then even if there was but a small chance that the Christ-Life never stops?
What does Divine Love ask for and deserve?
So the veil is rent in twain, and now is the time to see the pain and anguish of the devoted wife who tried with all her heart to assuage the grieving husband she left behind, knowing it was his Divine right in Christ.
Now is the time to see the child in Christ carrying the pitcher full of tears for the heart-broken parents who were told by their teachers she had no awareness of Life.
Now is the time to know that the Good Lord holds naught against them even though He too felt the pain their denial caused.
Yet now is the time they find that their well-intentioned mental reasoning is but paltry excuse when they had the chance to know, they had the opportunity to delve deeper into sacrificial Love, to reach out with the heart, to lay aside the theory of the mind for the longing of the heart in Christ.
I agree there's a lot of doctrine to go round and round about enough to make you crazy, but something most of us here agree on is that Christ's blood on the cross reconciles all on earth and in the heavens. Thank God.
I have to tell the truth. I don't think it matters much, nor is it a critical distinction of any kind. It is peripheral theology. Whether we sleep, or whther we cease to exist until the resurrection, or whether all go instantly at death into the presence of the Lord, or whther only the overcomers do( I think I listed the major positions :o).
The Good News is not wrapped around issues such as these. It is concerned with my destiny in response to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus and the destiny of all mankind as the result of that sacrifice, and His Lordship, Love and Life.
The rapture, free will/sov, Trinity/not trinity- all things we can discuss as topics of interest.....but none worth beatin a dead horse over for the eighty eight time LOLOL
:swordfight: :bdh: :director: :blah: :blahgreen: :BangHead:
Yeah, people believe all kinds of crazy stuff about a lot of things in life. Sometimes I think it's better to just be amused instead of getting stressed out about it. Some of the stuff we believe in the name of religion, if it wasn't considered sacred, would probably be considered mental illness. I prefer to laugh at the craziness in the world rather than get mad about it. It ain't that serious. I think the important thing is to try to be a willing channel of God's love in this world that needs it bad.
Quote from: lastpost on April 11, 2015, 10:39:54 PM
I truly find this sad. I would tell children that when a person dies they go to be with Jesus. I personally believe to tell them otherwise is a degradation of Love and not in tune with the world that an innocent and [as yet] un-programmed child sees in the life-patterns of the world around them.
I believe that the test in everything is that if something does not come up to the highest standard of love, then it is not of the God who is Love.
Yes, I believe when something brings anguish, that's not a good fruit. Lately I have told my children once you'll die, you'll be with 'Daddy God'. My 3yo keeps telling our (not born again) elderly neighbour 'went to be with God', and I leave it like that. Since my older children (8,11,12) use to ask more thoroughly, I just want to know how to answer them. And to people, who raise their eyebrows when my children declare:
my mother says you don't go to heaven when you die...
I'll be reading and studying the rest of your responds this week, brothers and sisters, since they are many! Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
Quote from: Abigail on April 13, 2015, 09:42:21 PM
Quote from: lastpost on April 11, 2015, 10:39:54 PM
I truly find this sad. I would tell children that when a person dies they go to be with Jesus. I personally believe to tell them otherwise is a degradation of Love and not in tune with the world that an innocent and [as yet] un-programmed child sees in the life-patterns of the world around them.
I believe that the test in everything is that if something does not come up to the highest standard of love, then it is not of the God who is Love.
Yes, I believe when something brings anguish, that's not a good fruit. Lately I have told my children once you'll die, you'll be with 'Daddy God'. My 3yo keeps telling our (not born again) elderly neighbour 'went to be with God', and I leave it like that. Since my older children (8,11,12) use to ask more thoroughly, I just want to know how to answer them. And to people, who raise their eyebrows when my children declare: my mother says you don't go to heaven when you die...
I'll be reading and studying the rest of your responds this week, brothers and sisters, since they are many! Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
Lovely thoughts Abigail & lastpost ! :HeartThrob:
Little children are the sweetest and trusting most precious ones and a simple answer is best ! :icon_flower:
Death is one of the most common questions they want to know about ,along with other gatherings of people they seem to question ..
and some of the hardest to share and explain to anyone .
Let the little children come unto me :o)
:thumbsup: prevent them not...
Quote from: Abigail on April 13, 2015, 09:42:21 PM
Quote from: lastpost on April 11, 2015, 10:39:54 PM
I believe that the test in everything is that if something does not come up to the highest standard of love, then it is not of the God who is Love.
Yes, I believe when something brings anguish, that's not a good fruit. Lately I have told my children once you'll die, you'll be with 'Daddy God'. My 3yo keeps telling our (not born again) elderly neighbour 'went to be with God', and I leave it like that. Since my older children (8,11,12) use to ask more thoroughly, I just want to know how to answer them. And to people, who raise their eyebrows when my children declare: my mother says you don't go to heaven when you die...
I'll be reading and studying the rest of your responds this week, brothers and sisters, since they are many! Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I so totally agree.. when someone loses a loved one, I always agree and even say they are with our Lord.. I always agree they are in a better place.. they are in valley above.. When teaching my children and grand children, it's according to age.. "with Jesus" when they are young.. My youngest grand daughter is six now and she has asked me about death, so i told her about "sleeping" and being woke up when Jesus returns, and I see now that as of now she sees death as almost nothing.. (whereas 'gramps' and i have lost too many loved ones and friends, and i cannot conceive of any of them being 'gone' like an atheist would.. seems inconceivable, besides God is Perfect, and Perfection can lose nothing.. :smile: )
I have wondered if God has raised some, or also wondered if those who came out of the grave at Jesus's death (not resurrection, which is curious to me) was a momentary thing... But mostly the thing that most sticks out to me is simply the idea of we humans having
inherent immortality.. (Jesus said the Father has given
to Him to have "life in Himself")
But, like others, errors don't overly bug me.. Because all Truth will be fully known and understood.. "nothing will remain hidden"
I didn't get to read the whole thread, but I think Joeteekay posted some great verses.. and I loved Sheila's post, I've often wondered at what age we rise at.. and her post sounds logical!
:smile:
Hi Marie !! :dsunny:
I just wanted to say after reading your post , I can agree with some of it as well
But I have come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is where all will be gathered into HIM the dead and living [1 Corinth 15 ] to be presented to GOD
WHO IS SO HOLY ,PURE and beyond a human concept , that we have much to look forward to ..
Now for me the judgment for some is now and some are not till the physically die
those whom are made pure though many sufferings in the world being refined , there is a gathering before him in Revelations that have come out of the tribulation that are made pure and given white robes , for me this is the covering of Christ as to be further clothed upon , just what this means I really do not know , but its to be made ready for the presence of GOD HIMSELF ...
To me the second coming of Christ is found in Hebrews 9 ;28 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
If we can believe Pauls sayings we know there are those dead in Christ undergoing the same baptism HE DID , , not all come this way ,this may be where we all seem to differ in how death is done away with in the LIFE &CHRIST ..
behold I come quickly ,, For some it is like a thief in the night and for those who waits on the Lord it is the new day dawning in their hearts
but as far as the final end we have those scriptures that explain judgment till Christ be all authority not just begining to reign from the point of the cross and bringing in the new covenant of Life by the perfect sacrifice and grace gift of God , though Jesus Christ HIMSELF
Rev 22 11"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
many it seems are under THIS judgment now Jesus saying in John 16 ...10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.... releasing those whom death has the hold on them ...
For me , believing that God is love and sent Jesus The holy One , I am persuaded that death will not hold mankind eternally , Jesus will make them His before presenting the to the HOLY FATHER /CREATOR OF ALL THINGS FOR HIS GLORY .
JUDGMENT COME UPON sin and evil 1 Peter 4;17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
It seems though suffering the evil and deaths hold we are given Jesus true word and sure promise though Him in faith and obedience of this
John 5 ...23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
25"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
OF all the effort made 3 things seem the most important to work on and stay in & aware of with the Our Savior , and they are .
1Cor.13;13
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide (accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation) these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Without faith it is impossible to please God
the Christ in you the hope of glory
34"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Quote from: marie glen
I have wondered if God has raised some, or also wondered if those who came out of the grave at Jesus's death (not resurrection, which is curious to me) was a momentary thing... But mostly the thing that most sticks out to me is simply the idea of we humans having inherent immortality.. (Jesus said the Father has given to Him to have "life in Himself")
I have wondered about this also. It says that Jesus will "bring the saints with him". Also, Jesus spoke about John and said" why would it concern you if "he remain till I come"....Not exact words.... Another thing, Paul is saying "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN WILL BE CAUGHT UP". Paul was speaking to those at that time. The event in Revelation where John talked to someone who said "I am of they brethern the prophets"...could have been an angel...Jesus was always speaking of "this generation". when all the things was suppose to happen. Those who pierced him would see him return. How could this be unless Jesus returned at that time?
If Christ came back and there was a resurrection...we know that both happened...but what if the apostles and others were resurrected, taken to heaven with Christ and there are those who have died since then who remain in their graves until Christ comes back again? This would clear up a lot of confusion.
I could go on and on. There are a lot of scriptures that support this and I believe I have mentioned this before in other threads similar to this one.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 14, 2015, 06:48:53 PM
Quote from: marie glen
I have wondered if God has raised some, or also wondered if those who came out of the grave at Jesus's death (not resurrection, which is curious to me) was a momentary thing... But mostly the thing that most sticks out to me is simply the idea of we humans having inherent immortality.. (Jesus said the Father has given to Him to have "life in Himself")
I have wondered about this also. It says that Jesus will "bring the saints with him". Also, Jesus spoke about John and said" why would it concern you if "he remain till I come"....Not exact words.... Another thing, Paul is saying "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN WILL BE CAUGHT UP". Paul was speaking to those at that time. The event in Revelation where John talked to someone who said "I am of they brethern the prophets"...could have been an angel...Jesus was always speaking of "this generation". when all the things was suppose to happen. Those who pierced him would see him return. How could this be unless Jesus returned at that time?
If Christ came back and there was a resurrection...we know that both happened...but what if the apostles and others were resurrected, taken to heaven with Christ and there are those who have died since then who remain in their graves until Christ comes back again? This would clear up a lot of confusion.
I could go on and on. There are a lot of scriptures that support this and I believe I have mentioned this before in other threads similar to this one.
CHB
Interesting.. if I'm remembering right, "generation" in the Greek is closer to "race" than what we think of as generation...?
Usually however, i lean toward "the saints coming with Him" as being after the two (part) harvest of Rev 19.. and 2 Thess 1:7,8 "He comes in fire" (imo, man's own consequences/the split atom) "and with angels" (..i.e., "immediately after the tribulation of those days.." Mt 24:39,31 ) ..when He gathers branches to be burned (to armageddon) and His wheat into the barn.. as the fire comes 'down' the saints go up, meeting Him in the air.. and return with Him to Mt of Olives where He left from (Acts 1:19 "ye shall
see Him return as you
saw Him go."
I believe all will view all of history on Great Day of Judgment.. so those which He was talking to, will "see Him return". It's my belief this viewing of all history by all, explains many things.. "every eye will see Him"
tho I sometimes think it's possible some have risen, possibly "Jesus the firstfruits" includes the apostles.. but more often I think of "we which are alive and remain" as an inclusive,"we christians" meaning of all christians, and not necessarily, "we christians" of his day.. Who knows?! we "see as through a glass unclearly"! :smile:
( :2c: )
Quote from: rosered on April 14, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
Hi Marie !! :dsunny:
I just wanted to say after reading your post , I can agree with some of it as well
But I have come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is where all will be gathered into HIM the dead and living [1 Corinth 15 ] to be presented to GOD
WHO IS SO HOLY ,PURE and beyond a human concept , that we have much to look forward to ..
Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: ...hello sister! :icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on April 14, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
Now for me the judgment for some is now and some are not till the physically die
those whom are made pure though many sufferings in the world being refined , there is a gathering before him in Revelations that have come out of the tribulation that are made pure and given white robes , for me this is the covering of Christ as to be further clothed upon , just what this means I really do not know , but its to be made ready for the presence of GOD HIMSELF ...
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
...I agree about the harvest/judgment at His return.. ..which I see as tares are gathered to be burned/
armageddon.. but the wheat is gathered into His barn/
to Him..
Quote from: rosered on April 14, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
To me the second coming of Christ is found in Hebrews 9 ;28 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
If we can believe Pauls sayings we know there are those dead in Christ undergoing the same baptism HE DID , , not all come this way ,this may be where we all seem to differ in how death is done away with in the LIFE &CHRIST ..
do you mean when Jesus said the apostles would drink the same cup and be baptized with the same baptism as Him? (martyred?)(Mark 10:39) or do you mean 1 Cor 15:29 "..what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?" which is a question I totally do not know why they would be baptized for the dead? Strong's includes "as a ceremony"..?
Quote from: rosered on April 14, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
behold I come quickly ,, For some it is like a thief in the night and for those who waits on the Lord it is the new day dawning in their hearts
Amen.. and I think for those waiting He gave clear signs of His coming.. not known by those who don't know Him (and not known by believers cold or lukewarm?) Plus His Spirit "when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth.. .. and He will tell you things to come." John 16:13...
Quote from: rosered on April 14, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
but as far as the final end we have those scriptures that explain judgment till Christ be all authority not just begining to reign from the point of the cross and bringing in the new covenant of Life by the perfect sacrifice and grace gift of God , though Jesus Christ HIMSELF
Amen!!! "Of
His government" (governing) "and peace,
there shall be no end"!! :banana: :banana: Isaiah 9:7?/7:9?
:dsunny:
Quote from: rosered on April 14, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
Rev 22 11"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
..some will rise (still) in their sins (2nd resurrection, rev 20:7,12, which imo, begins inferior to the 1st resurrection when believers "put on immortality" :banana: but will catch up!)
Quote from: rosered on April 14, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
..I am persuaded that death will not hold mankind eternally , Jesus will make them His before presenting them to the HOLY FATHER /CREATOR OF ALL THINGS FOR HIS GLORY .
We are in TOTAL agreement on that one!! :smile: (rev 21:1-6)
Quote from: rosered on April 14, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
JUDGMENT COME UPON sin and evil 1 Peter 4;17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
It seems though suffering the evil and deaths hold we are given Jesus true word and sure promise though Him in faith and obedience of this
John 5 ...23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
here is perhaps where we differ, I believe we have passed into life, in this life, but will also, unless He returns before I die, i believe I will be one of those as 1 thess 4 who will be "asleep in Christ" and will rise and meet Him at His return.. (1 thess 4:13-17)
Quote from: rosered on April 14, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
25"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Amen! And ultimately ALL will hear!! :cloud9: "all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families will worship Him" Ps 22:27
Thanks Marie for answering !! :thumbsup:
I guess some believe that Jesus returns in the Spirit and its instantly for those who are in Christ and 1 CORTH 15 explains it pretty good
and there are those who believe the second coming he is coming in a flesh body again ?? every eye will see Him I dont think so .. as a second return ?
I believe its all unseen to the natural eye , because Jesus always said tell no man those things he was doing , they would NOT believe ,but hinder Christ cause
I believe that there are always two interpretations in a scripture - a material interpretation and a spiritual interpretation. The material interpretation is often the outcome of man's mind inspired by God, whereas the spiritual interpretation is the outcome of God's Spirit.
In my opinion, from a material point of view, the symbolism used in Revelation to the early Christians and its use in the rebuttal of contemporary Rome, in particular the emperor Domitian and his requirements to be worshipped as "Our Master and our God", is powerfully represented.
A few examples of this contrasting symbolism could be as follows: Domitian demanded that twenty-four choral singers precede and praise him wherever he went (in contrast to the twenty-four elders in Revelation); and that everyone bow to Domitian when he passed them or be put to death (in contrast to the Living Saviour who is responsible for everlasting life and to whom "every knee shall bow"); and the "divine" infant son of Domitian being the head of the gods surrounded by seven stars (in contrast to the seven stars held by Jesus, the son of God).
So, from a direct and more material viewpoint, as well as a reprimand for sinful behaviour, the book of Revelation was an encouragement from the Living Christ - the Beginning and the End - to His early followers in the churches, and their sporadic persecution and martyrdoms for His sake by the Roman Empire which was driven by evil. There was a plan for the world, and its ending was most assuredly controlled by God.
Then, as I think I said, every scripture has a spiritual interpretation. For me, I can see many, many places in Revelation that apply to the individual - uniquely, to one, applying to one human life and its ending and what happens at the end of each human life when its time is up on planet Earth.
The Book of Revelation urges from the very beginning recognition of the fact that "the time is at hand" - the time is near, not at some time long in the future. I believe that at the end of a person's Earth life, the Master Christ comes to that soul with His angelic host.
Jesus says: "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his works".
If he or she has been a faithful servant then he or she finds themselves taken to a beautiful Heavenly World to which they are accustomed spiritually; conversely, one continually committing evil, the constant violator of Divine Law, finds himself transported to a place worse than "life" (darkness or outer darkness) - he dies a physical death and now finds a far worse prospect, he is living a spiritual death - a second death, and here he must abide until the desire to rise out of the awful place he or she finds themselves in is strong enough to do so.
"Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy".
If how a follower of Christ lives did not matter then the messages in Revelation would be pointless. The warnings given to the churches in the Book of Revelation strongly emphasise turning from the sinful motives and deeds. Indeed, one of the churches has become so involved with sin-production that only a few of the community are deemed as worthy - the significance of white garments is not lost on believers in the spiritual transfiguration of the soul-body. [And my own personal belief is that the spiritual body reacts in harmony with its surroundings, so that if a person is passing through a field of, say, musical flowers, then the outer garment will harmonise with those flowers - or if passing a translucent mutli-dimensional marbled wall (for example) then appropriate harmonious colours automatically adjust in the "robe" that the spiritual body is wearing.]
The time is at hand indeed, and it comes to all - physical death. There are two bodies at the end of physical life, one body is left for carrion and the other body is taken by angels, "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" etc. - the physical body and the spiritual body respectively - two bodies, but of just one person. "There is a natural body and there is (esti => is) a spiritual body", and they co-exist in the same person. Let that person be a true follower of the Saviour Jesus the Christ, and his or her "end" shall be the beginning of Life Divine.
I think it will be many years yet before that which is taken materially is given its spiritual significance. The millions of "end-time" Christians who believe in everlasting hellfire and who eagerly await an angry Avenger to come and carry out their hateful desires for them, do not serve the cause of the God who is Love.
I believe it is also harmful to be anticipating catastrophe, and I do not listen or worry about soothsayers pointing to this sign and that sign, but I carry on with my life, and try with effort and redoubling of effort to make my life one of dedication to following Christ in everything big and small, in service and in love, every fraction of a second - because He is worthy of it, and one "day" it will be the strongest desire in the heart of all desires - it will be everything to serve Him with everything.
I have great hope that things are changing - and they change for the better, because the power of the Holy Spirit is beyond anything conceived of by the mind of man - and the Holy Spirit is at work in the world today in a most potent manner yet unseen for the most part.
Peace and Harmony are of God:
"For the LORD is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos."
Isaiah 45:18
Thanks for sharing your heart lastpost :HeartThrob:
especially this !!
Quotehe time is at hand indeed, and it comes to all - physical death. There are two bodies at the end of physical life, one body is left for carrion and the other body is taken by angels, "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" etc. - the physical body and the spiritual body respectively - two bodies, but of just one person. "There is a natural body and there is (esti => is) a spiritual body", and they co-exist in the same person. Let that person be a true follower of the Saviour Jesus the Christ, and his or her "end" shall be the beginning of Life Divine.
I think it will be many years yet before that which is taken materially is given its spiritual significance. The millions of "end-time" Christians who believe in everlasting hellfire and who eagerly await an angry Avenger to come and carry out their hateful desires for them, do not serve the cause of the God who is Love.
I believe it is also harmful to be anticipating catastrophe, and I do not listen or worry about soothsayers pointing to this sign and that sign, but I carry on with my life, and try with effort and redoubling of effort to make my life one of dedication to following Christ in everything big and small, in service and in love, every fraction of a second - because He is worthy of it, and one "day" it will be the strongest desire in the heart of all desires - it will be everything to serve Him with everything.
I have great hope that things are changing - and they change for the better, because the power of the Holy Spirit is beyond anything conceived of by the mind of man - and the Holy Spirit is at work in the world today in a most potent manner yet unseen for the most part.
[/b]
I agree :iagree: Amen !
I have considered those whom are given little understanding in this life about the things and works of the Holy Spirit & fire baptism , teaching and comforting and correction /conviction how their ignorance would be a blessing where there is no law there is no sin imputed [Romans 5]
and How those given much has the more to do all according to the Mercy of God
the warning is not to harden our hearts and that is important when we see so much evil being done towards one another to those without law
there nature is no different than the animals that roam freely to do as the please , of whom I have done also in times past
But I know from scripture that grace abounds the more in Romans 5 Paul states this , and those that know this should not have any thing to do with evil
For me that is the dividing factor in those walking in the flesh/death realm still and those walking in the Spirit of Life
I agree there is the natural and literal that we see plainly the evil and those still trapped in sin and death and seeing the good done by the Lords Spirit working in those to whom its given and the Spiritual is only seen by those whom have been healed by the Lord Jesus Christ as eyes to see and ears to hear and heart to understand what the Spirit of truth is showing and hearing and knowing that is far better than seeing with natural eyes of understanding
Matt 13 speaking in those parables
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled,
which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND
UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' 16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear
Thank you all for your thoughts. Lastpost, you gave me some more issues to ponder.
Quote from: lastpost on April 18, 2015, 10:32:08 PM
If he or she has been a faithful servant then he or she finds themselves taken to a beautiful Heavenly World to which they are accustomed spiritually; conversely, one continually committing evil, the constant violator of Divine Law, finds himself transported to a place worse than "life" (darkness or outer darkness) - he dies a physical death and now finds a far worse prospect, he is living a spiritual death - a second death, and here he must abide until the desire to rise out of the awful place he or she finds themselves in is strong enough to do so.
"Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy".
Do you mean that when one dies without God, he goes on in his sinfulness (but worse) until he is so tired/sick of it, he cries out to God our Saviour?
Quote from: lastpost on April 18, 2015, 10:32:08 PM
I believe it is also harmful to be anticipating catastrophe, and I do not listen or worry about soothsayers pointing to this sign and that sign, but I carry on with my life, and try with effort and redoubling of effort to make my life one of dedication to following Christ in everything big and small, in service and in love, every fraction of a second - because He is worthy of it, and one "day" it will be the strongest desire in the heart of all desires - it will be everything to serve Him with everything.
:iagree: When I grew up, I always was anticipating a catastrophe, where we christian would barely make it, and when we (being tortured and threatened) succeeded in not denying Christ, we would inherit eternal life. The fruit of this thinking in my life was hopelessness, and I have always sought to understand the gospel in a way that would bring hope and a future!
About the issues being discussed earlier in this thread:
Concerning 'sleeping' / being in an unaware state OR being with Christ right away... I feel like both are true, yet our problem is the concept of 'time'. So when by example, grandpa dies, for us who are within time, he is asleep for a long time before Christ wakes him up. For him, outside of time, he wakes up immediately. Could it be that way?
Also Psalm 139 came to my mind, where it says:
Even if I make my
bed in Sheol,
You are there...
I do apologise but I have more input on seeing Jesus.
Firstly, He said: "Where there are two or three gathered together in My Name, there am I among them" (Matt. 18:20). In my opinion this indicates His conscious omnipresent Form, and the effect that the desire to see and know Him has. Indeed, He comes to them. Sometimes, He will appear to an individual in a personal manifestation of His Presence Form - a form recognisable by an individual as being Christ (for instance, actually seeing and 'meeting' Christ in a form not dissimilar to how He appeared when on earth in human form).
Secondly, I believe that a follower of Christ is met by Jesus at their transition / resurrection / anastasis: "There be some standing here (those people to whom Jesus was speaking at the time), which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in His Kingdom" (Matt.16:28).
Thirdly, I believe in His actual return in something of His spiritual Glory in its manifested state where He shall be seen by all. This will only be when the spiritual vibrations of the earth have been purified enough by the thoughts, actions and deeds of man as he follows the way God has laid down for him to follow. This wonderful event shall only happen when there are enough people who desire with all their heart to see and know Him for Himself, quite simply, out of the love in their hearts: "...Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Luke 13:35).
This happening is dependent upon man himself, and secular time has little or no part to play with regard to this supremely joyous and awesome event. In essence, this is not to do with dogma or doctrine; this is to do with real love, this is to do with human beings having hearts which are full of genuine, powerful, unconditional love, and therefore would not only welcome but yearn passionately to be with the Source of Love. Jesus Christ shall appear in form hitherto unimagined. But, before this happens, as the earth conditions become more spiritualised as time goes on, man shall witness many spiritual events, such as the more frequent appearances of the Bright Ones from the Christ Realms. Man shall work with those in the Spirit in a spirit of true co-operation, and thus further purify the conditions of the earth plane. Then, Christ shall come in a greater form that has hitherto been possible for humanity to witness, so "that in the fullness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ" (the Grand Consummation - Eph.1:10).
I agree with what you're saying about time, sis. I think dead souls are unseen by humans and figuratively sleeping, but of course they're always with God because all is out of God, through God, and into God (Romans 11:36). Even in our conscious state time can be distorted, and I think the dead will know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and therefore perceive no time until they're roused and immortalized regardless of how much time has passed while they're dead. So it will probably seem to those who die, when they are vivified, that no time has passed, but I don't believe the dead are in some other form of life. I think you're either dead or alive. We are living souls (Genesis 2:7). Scripture days souls die (Ezekiel 18:4,20). Satan says we don't (Genesis 3:4).
I think Matthew 16:28 refers to the vision they had on the mountain six days later. I don't believe our snatching away to meet Christ in the air or his return to Israel depends on man. I believe it's simply according to God's will.
Yes, Tom, it's all according to God's Will as He has preordained the results.
Quotelastpost
If he or she has been a faithful servant then he or she finds themselves taken to a beautiful Heavenly World to which they are accustomed spiritually; conversely, one continually committing evil, the constant violator of Divine Law, finds himself transported to a place worse than "life" (darkness or outer darkness) - he dies a physical death and now finds a far worse prospect, he is living a spiritual death - a second death, and here he must abide until the desire to rise out of the awful place he or she finds themselves in is strong enough to do so.
"Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy".
Do you mean that when one dies without God, he goes on in his sinfulness (but worse) until he is so tired/sick of it, he cries out to God our Saviour?
abigail
QuoteDo you mean that when one dies without God, he goes on in his sinfulness (but worse) until he is so tired/sick of it, he cries out to God our Saviour?
To be honest with you Abigail , this is exactly how I was so sin sick and miserable and lost I cried out to God in my sinful state begging for His help to change me from my own vileness towards Him , in my mid twenties
I believe its an awareness of our sinful state that always remains in the body of death , and was Pauls cries in Romans 7 of his condition and the old man of sin in each and everyone of us undergoes ''the body of death ''
If you read Rev 22 in the mindset of knowing that all of us that are flesh and blood that is outside the city /and prone to sin and futility and consider our moral bodies as good as dead already by faith in Jesus Christ [Abraham's seed / father of faith ] same as Abraham did in Hebrews 11
You will look at Rev 22 considering a different perception , the WORD OF GOD is always ready for the reader and is quickened by the Holy Spirit as Words of Life freely to those whom read the Book for all time I believe this is what was spoken of when its said the outward man is perishing/dead know nothing and the inward man is renewed day by day , there is the battle of dealing with the unholy nature born in everyone of the earthly realm [the flesh profits nothing ] and the Holy nature that becomes the focus Looking to the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the lack . We have so much more than that of the old times past and Paul says ,''without excuse ''
10
Then the angel told me, "Do not ·keep secret [L seal; contrast 10:4] the words of prophecy in this ·book [scroll], because the time is near for all this to happen. 11 Let whoever is doing ·evil [wrong; harm] continue to do evil [wrong; harm; Dan. 12:10Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand..]
Let whoever is ·unclean [vile; impure; filthy] continue to be ·unclean [vile; impure; filthy]. Let whoever is ·doing right [righteous; just] continue to do ·right [righteousness; justice]. Let whoever is holy continue to be holy."
12 "·Listen [L Look; Behold]! I am coming ·soon [quickly]!
·I will bring my reward with me [L and my reward is with me; Is. 40:10], and I will repay ·each one of you [L each person] for what you have done.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End [1:8; 21:6].
14 "·Blessed [Happy] are those who wash their robes [C an image of spiritual cleansing]
so that they will receive the ·right [power; authority] to eat the fruit from the tree of life and may ·go through [enter] the gates into the city. 15
Outside the city are the ·evil people [L dogs], those who do ·evil magic [sorcery], who ·sin sexually [fornicate], who murder, who worship idols, and who love lies and tell lies.
Who is the outward man corrupt /unholy and inward man incorruptible /holy cannot be corrupted , in all of us
We look to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith
Without faith its impossible to please God
those whom are faithless are the robber to Gods glory in the earth as it is in heaven
Two thieves on the Cross with Jesus Christ in the middle of the two , one is confessing his sin and speaking truth Jesus you are innocent , asking Jesus to remember him when He come into His Kingdom and the Word of the Lord is favorable toward Him , the other thief never admits to wrong and ask for the sign , If you are the Son of God get yourself and me down from here , there is never a mention of this thief again
The meaning to me is this , the old man perishes in his sins and the new man being remembered in Christ , the new member of His Body of believers
Quote from: Tom on April 19, 2015, 05:23:33 PM
I think Matthew 16:28 refers to the vision they had on the mountain six days later. I don't believe our snatching away to meet Christ in the air or his return to Israel depends on man. I believe it's simply according to God's will.
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." two thieves on the cross to me ..
I do believe its the Wisdom of God and those given His Wisdom to know His will that flourishes with living things of Life and the wisdom of men that perishes with the using and comes to nothing Tom , just my thoughts .
Quote
Do you mean that when one dies without God, he goes on in his sinfulness (but worse) until he is so tired/sick of it, he cries out to God our Saviour?
Dear Abigail,
You may very well put it like that.
I'm restricted to stating a concept only, the Holy Spirit is essential to bring God's truth where the letter ends.
I believe that the Israelites had adopted a particular viewpoint of the afterlife, and Divine Spirit communion uses what is in the mind of the one who receives the message. It is pertinent for the cultural and spiritual state at the time. It is never more than can be taken in as it would be useless in its aim.
My view is that the Israelites were influenced by the eschatological notions of those around them and with whom they will have had dealings in trade etc. Sheol, in my mind took on some Greek characteristics of Hades (two states, Tartarus and Elysium type concepts) around New Testament times but that's another story.
I accept and follow Jesus Christ as my Saviour, and as you know, He said that anyone who believes in Him will never see death - and I take Him at His word. Continually sinning against the Christ brings the soul into a filthy and degenerated second death state as mentioned above - it simply cannot reside in purified spiritual conditions - and as "no eye hath seen" those purified spiritual conditions, we know for certain that those conditions are removed from anything the material earth conditions present to us. The sinner was spirtually dead in the flesh and they are spirtually dead again once the flesh has been dropped.
I believe that God speaks His truth to individuals in a unique way - it is truth, but it is truth from God's Spirit to that one person. Each person is unique and therefore their understanding is also unique. I hope this makes sense.
When the huge and immense Wheel of Truth turns, there is far too much for any of God's creatures to take in, and when one of His children wants to know something of Him with the deepest of desires, then He will throw off that truth to the individual - it is revelation for that one, to satisfy that need - it is between the individual child of God and God. It's something that cannot be given away to someone else as it wasn't meant for someone else.
I believe this is very much the case with the Seer in Revelation. What that Seer put down in script for others was but the outer truths given by God or Christ to him - the unique knowledge given to the Seer for him alone was far too personal and sacred to be given to others for whom it was never meant.
My personal belief is that there is not a state of non-consciousness, although a soul can habituate itself to a comatose state for a while - to me it goes against the grain of Christ and the Christ Spirit. It's like someone coming up to me and saying: "Excuse me but you are not alive because I do not believe you can be". I find such a belief "unnatural" (if I can use that word without it picking up too many New Testament attachments) and rather pointless - the Christ Life is important to Christ and He does not want a single second of it wasted.
I believe (and I can't really say it any other way, apologies) that that notion is a literalistic dogma created by sincere people who want to stick to literalistic interpretation of words which are meant to be taken in a spiritual way. But then that's another story for which, no doubt, many threads have been created.
Peace and again Peace.
:thumbsup: Rose. two camps......the rock as a pillow for his head..and Jacobs ladder..........the wrestling all night with the
angel...til victory is won and we are BLESSED. Rev. the camp of the Holy city He loves
this child[saviour] shall be for a sign that is spoken against....the rising and falling of many in Israel
....and this...the soul that is sinning..it shall die[old outer man that perish] who? is written in the dust? but our old fleshly man.
the new spirit man in Christ rises..the old man of sin in us all falls.
the earth shall bring forth briars and thorns=sin in our flesh-messengers of satan..that we be not overly exalted due
to the revelation. we shall judge angels..the fallen=thorns/sin in our flesh that is condemned.......messengers of death/condemnation
the corrupt image all men bear......
WHO? WILL DELIVER US FROM THIS BODY UNDERGOING THIS DEATH? Thanks be to Jesus Christ..the Saviour of all men
fire comes out of the midst[kingdom of heaven in your midst] and consumes the briars and thorns.
I don't believe Christ said, "shall never die." I think that's simply the way the King James translates "for the eon" which refers to the next eon, the Millennium, when believers will not die. Christ used the phrase "for the eon" many times in scripture, but I think it's misleading to translate it "never." An eon is a period of time with a beginning and an end. An eon is not endless time or no time. The King James chooses to translate it as both. That's one of the reasons I don't read the King James anymore. I think it's important to read an accurate translation to get the truth. I read the King James for many years, but I learned that the ancient text doesn't actually say some things that are in the King James. I know some people think the King James is the inspired written word of God. I believe the ancient original scripture was the inspired written word of God, but everything we have now is translation from imperfect copies. I don't believe there is an infallible translation because something is always lost in translation, but I think we need to find what we think is the most accurate translation by comparing it with the ancient text. I switched to Young's Literal Translation when I became aware of problems with the King James Version, and then I switched to the Concordant Version when I became aware of a few problems with Young's Literal Translation. There are a few things about the Concordant Version that bug me too, but I haven't found anything that distorts doctrine. That's why I read it now, and I have to speak up when folks quote the King James about things that I think do distort doctrine. Most of us are here because we know orthodox theology distorts the evangel. I realize the debate about whether we're dead or alive when we're dead doesn't really affect the good news that Christ's blood on the cross reconciles all on earth and in the heavens, but the concept of the inherent immortality of the soul affects the understanding of resurrection. So it is something people are curious about because I think the state of death is misunderstood due to that concept. I personally think it's simple because I believe you're either dead or alive, but I understand why other folks disagree. I'm just offering my perspective.
I believe, when Christ said the following, he meant that even though believers may die, they will be made alive and not die again in the next eon.
"I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living. And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon." (John 11:25,26)
I don't believe that means that believers who die are still alive.
See the attachment for a comparison of the Concordant Version, the King James Version, Young's Literal Translation, an ultra-literal translation, and the Greek text.
[attachment deleted by admin]
(Col. 1:18) who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead
It says that Christ was "the firstborn from the dead". My understanding of this is, Christ was the first one that rose from the grave.
If this is true then it was after the resurrection of Christ that people went to be with the Lord, is this right? If this is true then Moses and Elijah really wasn't with Christ in the transfiguration?
Anyone got any thoughts on this?
CHB
That was a vision (Matthew 17:9).
vision is to see....that vision was a spiritual reality.....not given to those without eyes to see or ears to hear.
if God gives us a vision..it is more real than any veil /or illusion of this world. my :2c:
people forget..the Lamb was slaughtered before the founding of this world. before Abraham..I was........
I liken it to those who are in the eternal and thier manifestation in the stream of time...a time warp if you will percieve of us
that have not entered the eternal/immortal TODAY of Heaven.
John 17;5 and now Father,glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began....
Jesus is the pattern son......in His image we are ....about His death..He spoke like this.........I am returning unto the father..and more then
that...He said..from now on call no man your father..for your father is in Heaven. THE SPIRIT RETURNS UNTO GOD WHO GIVE IT......
. and the flesh returns unto the dust of the earth from which it come.
the little children were partakers of flesh and blood..and likewise He partook...............He is the way...the truth..the life!!!!!!!
There's no mention of the word "vision" in Luke or Mark. There is a mention of two males "Who appeared in glory" named Moses and Elijah and who were seen / beheld (eido).
Peter, who was awake (after sleeping, so this was no vision during sleep) when he saw and heard Moses and Elijah, apparently frightened and not knowing what to say decided they were real enough to warrant making them some shelter (not knowing spirits do not need material shelter). That certainly does not sound like whatever a "vision" that is not a spectacle to the eyesight is meant to mean.
The word attributed to Matthew:
Transliteration:
horama {hor'-am-ah}
Primary Definition: "that which is seen, spectacle"
Word Origin:
from 3708*
*3708 Transliteration:
horao {hor-ah'-o}
Word Origin:
properly, to stare at [cf 3700]
Definition:
1. to see with the eyes
2. to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4. to see, to look to
1. to take heed, beware
2. to care for, pay heed to
5. I was seen, showed myself, appeared For Synonyms see entry 5822
Besides, it would not be unusual to attribute a word which is connected with supernatural witnessing to seeing a supernatural sight - indeed it would be a horama, there's no reason to believe otherwise - but that in no way means Moses and Elijah were not the cause of themselves being witnessed.
Indeed, seeing spirits is using harama-type sight - it is seeing them supernaturally, they are spirits after all.
And if this was not really Moses and Elijah "discussing His forthcoming decease that he should accomplish in Jerusalem", then what would be the point of God or Jesus pretending it was them, as if they were imitations of Moses and Elijah - that simply is not very credible at all, very non-Divine-like, to use cheap imitations!
This was really the two spirits of Moses and Elijah. When a spirit has been in God's Greater World of Spirit for as long as these two holy men, they would no longer resemble their earthly bodies, they would have become so spiritualised that their forms would have gained more omnipresent fluidity.
In order for them to be recognisable by humans (which was clearly a major point of the disciples being especially picked for this spectacle) the spirit must reduce its vibrations to those near earth density. We then see these two showing some of their spiritual glory before disappearing again.
And furthermore, advanced spirits such as these would not even need to make a personal appearance, they could be developed enough to build up images of themselves on earth from deep within the Divine Sphere of Christ should they wish to do so, then yes, that really would be a vision too.
A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive. Think seriously: Why would this spectacle appear in three of the four gospel-records if the people talking to Jesus Christ were just "nothings" that did not really exist? We can certainly start inventing reasons, but in my book if Jesus talks about something as serious as His forthcoming death, He is going to do it with serious living people* and not mere images without real personalities!
* Using the term "people" to include the spirits of individuals who have departed the fleshly tabernacle.
Peace in the Spirit
"A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive," but it doesn't mean they are alive either. I think they were dead and are still dead just like everybody else who has died, except Christ, but will be immortalized in the future, believers first when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
Quote from: Tom on April 20, 2015, 12:58:51 AM
"A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive," but it doesn't mean they are alive either. I think they were dead and are still dead just like everybody else who has died, except Christ, but will be immortalized in the future, believers first when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
Hi Tom
I dont think you believe that all things are being gathered into Christ and that all things come out of Him yet ??
Moses and Elijah represent the Law & prophets , the transfiguration was showing us that they were gathered in Christ when Jesus stood alone
Jesus represents the Wisdom and Power of God showing the old testament prophecy being fulfilled
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--
all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. predicted prophesied Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. this happened at Christ death when the Flesh of Jesus Christ being the veil was torn from top to bottom , the way truth and life had been heaven opened and access to the Father by Jesus [Hebrews 10;20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh
Matt 27 ,, The Death of Jesus
...52
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
54Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"... many say this is made up but its not spurious its man trying to suppress the faith of some
CLV
50 Now Jesus, again crying with a loud voice, lets out the spirit.
51 And lo! the curtain of the temple is rent in two from above to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks are rent,
52
and the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the reposing saints were roused,
53 and, coming out of the tombs after His rousing, they entered into the holy city and are disclosed to many.54 Now the centurion and those with him who are keeping Jesus, perceiving the quake and the occurrences, were tremendously afraid, saying, "Truly this was God's Son!"
I think all comes out of the Father through Christ to us. I don't know which verses you're talking about Rose, but here's a link to the Concordant Version if you want to look them up. http://concordant.org/online/index.html
Maybe you meant these verses.
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
Quote from: rosered on April 20, 2015, 01:22:35 AM
Quote from: Tom on April 20, 2015, 12:58:51 AM
"A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive," but it doesn't mean they are alive either. I think they were dead and are still dead just like everybody else who has died, except Christ, but will be immortalized in the future, believers first when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air, and unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
Hi Tom
I dont think you believe that all things are being gathered into Christ and that all things come out of Him yet ??
Moses and Elijah represent the Law & prophets , the transfiguration was showing us that they were gathered in Christ when Jesus stood alone
Jesus represents the Wisdom and Power of God showing the old testament prophecy being fulfilled
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
predicted prophesied Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
this happened at Christ death when the Flesh of Jesus Christ being the veil was torn from top to bottom , the way truth and life had been heaven opened and access to the Father by Jesus [Hebrews 10;20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh
Matt 27 ,, The Death of Jesus
...52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
54Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"...
many say this is made up but its not spurious its man trying to suppress the faith of some
CLV
50 Now Jesus, again crying with a loud voice, lets out the spirit.
51 And lo! the curtain of the temple is rent in two from above to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks are rent,
52 and the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the reposing saints were roused,
53 and, coming out of the tombs after His rousing, they entered into the holy city and are disclosed to many.
54 Now the centurion and those with him who are keeping Jesus, perceiving the quake and the occurrences, were tremendously afraid, saying, "Truly this was God's Son!"
" the transfiguration " was a vision. Also at the time you speak of no one had been converted as of yet. The people who were roused also died again, I believe that rousing was a sign. :2c:
Quote from: lastpost on April 20, 2015, 12:23:34 AM
There's no mention of the word "vision" in Luke or Mark. There is a mention of two males "Who appeared in glory" named Moses and Elijah and who were seen / beheld (eido).
Peter, who was awake (after sleeping, so this was no vision during sleep) when he saw and heard Moses and Elijah, apparently frightened and not knowing what to say decided they were real enough to warrant making them some shelter (not knowing spirits do not need material shelter). That certainly does not sound like whatever a "vision" that is not a spectacle to the eyesight is meant to mean.
The word attributed to Matthew:
Transliteration:
horama {hor'-am-ah}
Primary Definition: "that which is seen, spectacle"
Word Origin:
from 3708*
*3708 Transliteration:
horao {hor-ah'-o}
Word Origin:
properly, to stare at [cf 3700]
Definition:
1. to see with the eyes
2. to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4. to see, to look to
1. to take heed, beware
2. to care for, pay heed to
5. I was seen, showed myself, appeared For Synonyms see entry 5822
Besides, it would not be unusual to attribute a word which is connected with supernatural witnessing to seeing a supernatural sight - indeed it would be a horama, there's no reason to believe otherwise - but that in no way means Moses and Elijah were not the cause of themselves being witnessed.
Indeed, seeing spirits is using harama-type sight - it is seeing them supernaturally, they are spirits after all.
And if this was not really Moses and Elijah "discussing His forthcoming decease that he should accomplish in Jerusalem", then what would be the point of God or Jesus pretending it was them, as if they were imitations of Moses and Elijah - that simply is not very credible at all, very non-Divine-like, to use cheap imitations!
This was really the two spirits of Moses and Elijah. When a spirit has been in God's Greater World of Spirit for as long as these two holy men, they would no longer resemble their earthly bodies, they would have become so spiritualised that their forms would have gained more omnipresent fluidity.
In order for them to be recognisable by humans (which was clearly a major point of the disciples being especially picked for this spectacle) the spirit must reduce its vibrations to those near earth density. We then see these two showing some of their spiritual glory before disappearing again.
And furthermore, advanced spirits such as these would not even need to make a personal appearance, they could be developed enough to build up images of themselves on earth from deep within the Divine Sphere of Christ should they wish to do so, then yes, that really would be a vision too.
A vision does not mean the people being seen are not alive. Think seriously: Why would this spectacle appear in three of the four gospel-records if the people talking to Jesus Christ were just "nothings" that did not really exist? We can certainly start inventing reasons, but in my book if Jesus talks about something as serious as His forthcoming death, He is going to do it with serious living people* and not mere images without real personalities!
* Using the term "people" to include the spirits of individuals who have departed the fleshly tabernacle.
Peace in the Spirit
No offence, but you seem to know a lot about "spirits" and the "spirit world." I don't "see" where the Definition:
1. to see with the eyes
2. to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4. to see, to look to
1. to take heed, beware
2. to care for, pay heed to
Is something other than a vision.
:HeartThrob: :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 20, 2015, 02:13:40 PM
No offence, but you seem to know a lot about "spirits" and the "spirit world." I don't "see" where the Definition:
1. to see with the eyes
2. to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4. to see, to look to
1. to take heed, beware
2. to care for, pay heed to
Is something other than a vision.
:HeartThrob: :2c:
No offence taken Micah, but if you would read what you have quoted me saying (and no offense!), you will see that I have agreed the definition of vision is absolutely acceptable...
Quote
Besides, it would not be unusual to attribute a word which is connected with supernatural witnessing to seeing a supernatural sight - indeed it would be a horama, there's no reason to believe otherwise - but that in no way means Moses and Elijah were not the cause of themselves being witnessed.
Indeed, seeing spirits is using harama-type sight - it is seeing them supernaturally, they are spirits after all.
Spirits are not made of three-dimensional material atoms - in my opinion...
Quote from: lastpost on April 20, 2015, 03:26:44 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 20, 2015, 02:13:40 PM
No offence, but you seem to know a lot about "spirits" and the "spirit world." I don't "see" where the Definition:
1. to see with the eyes
2. to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4. to see, to look to
1. to take heed, beware
2. to care for, pay heed to
Is something other than a vision.
:HeartThrob: :2c:
No offence taken Micah, but if you would read what you have quoted me saying (and no offense!), you will see that I have agreed the definition of vision is absolutely acceptable...
Quote
Besides, it would not be unusual to attribute a word which is connected with supernatural witnessing to seeing a supernatural sight - indeed it would be a horama, there's no reason to believe otherwise - but that in no way means Moses and Elijah were not the cause of themselves being witnessed.
Indeed, seeing spirits is using harama-type sight - it is seeing them supernaturally, they are spirits after all.
Spirits are not made of three-dimensional material atoms - in my opinion...
God is spirit, in my opinion there is no dimension to spirit. :2c:
Quote" the transfiguration " was a vision. Also at the time you speak of no one had been converted as of yet. The people who were roused also died again, I believe that rousing was a sign. :2c:
Hi Micah , I agree they were seeing a vision of glory with eyes of perceiving" become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand":
For me I do not think that those risen ones were returning in the flesh and blood bodies to a literal city of Jerusalem , but were the first fruits company going home !! as the Cross of Jesus Christ proves that Jesus Christ has the keys of hell/ graves unseen and death , and those freed from death were the promise of the Father showing His truth , those two Moses and Elijah represent the freed from under the Law of sin being death /Moses and prophets /Elijah
When Michael disputed over the body of Moses /those under the Law in Jude we see its the Lord that rebukes satan / adversary
and those who died in Faith not receiving the promises in Hebrews 11 the heavenly Jerusalem
This was the need for the new ambassadors of Christ to say with urgency and in many places its near and at hand =in power and they that are alive will see Him soon , This was Jesus promise to them , behold I return quickly ... THEY has no idea the meaning a 1000 years is a day unto the Lord and the Lord is not slack concerning His promises but patient that all come to repentance , Peter understood by the Spirit speaking to let us be informed and there is a spiritual meaning to this "phrase"
I really do not think most people realize the Power of Jesus Christ cross and how it was a pivotal point =the center point of any rotational system , a wheel within a wheel
a turning around a shadow of turning point from darkness /ignorance to coming to the Light and Knowledge of God , a beginning of the new and living way preparing us for knowing God and His will for all
I have the keys to hell and death Rev 1 17When I saw Him,
I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One;
and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore,
and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
19"Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
Satan lost His power to accuse before God night / those under law and Day/ those under grace
starting with Moses body the body of believers under the Law and ministration of death
the One we saw Saul under and Christ returned to Him and gave him the gift of Life/ Light the knowing Gods plans and mysteries of the ages
and He was a witness and wrote it down for us , His new name was Paul and He become a LIVING STONE IN GODS KINGDOM from a heart of stone dead letters /dead men
, he was a partaker of it while flesh and blood , but He was a new creature in Christ and living and walking in the SPIRIT and explained and told us how to as well ... [the inward man renewed day by day light getting brighter and brighter and being able to see more clearly ]
This is just my understanding and trying to explain it , It is hard to know what to say , but we keep on trying as the Spirit leads us to do so
Saul /Paul was struck with blindness on the brightness of the Lords coming to him and the old man of sin , him being a judge and killing off the new babes in Christ was something he was convicted for and was humbled by CHRIST PRESENCE , This is the Lords way is to humble us and change us
for the letter of the law killers of wrath to peaceable , loving and forgiving reconciliation members of His body and of His ministry
as Paul preached and the Spirit blessed and those given ears to hear what the Spirit is saying though Paul and all of those chosen and given the gifts of Life to us and we share this with one and other in Love and not by force as it was done before Christ came the first time
His body of believers eat this Life and sustain the Spiritual man within ,bread of heaven and drinking His blood is our Life in Him , there is life in the blood
Quote from: rosered on April 20, 2015, 04:21:01 PM
, he was a partaker of it while flesh and blood , but He was a new creature in Christ and living and walking in the SPIRIT and explained and told us how to as well ... [the inward man renewed day by day light getting brighter and brighter and being able to see more clearly ]
This is just my understanding and trying to explain it , It is hard to know what to say , but we keep on trying as the Spirit leads us to do so
His body of believers eat this Life and sustain the Spiritual man within ,bread of heaven and drinking His blood is our Life in Him , there is life in the blood
I see
In the inner chamber of the heart
Resides Truth of a Purity that cannot be outside
as it ceases to be Pure,
Remaining there, secret, one with HIM alone
In the courtyard, in the outer chamber
Truth is dropped as the heart yearns to Give
It is of the Blood of the Giver
Quote from: lastpost on April 20, 2015, 07:26:09 PM
Quote from: rosered on April 20, 2015, 04:21:01 PM
, he was a partaker of it while flesh and blood , but He was a new creature in Christ and living and walking in the SPIRIT and explained and told us how to as well ... [the inward man renewed day by day light getting brighter and brighter and being able to see more clearly ]
This is just my understanding and trying to explain it , It is hard to know what to say , but we keep on trying as the Spirit leads us to do so
His body of believers eat this Life and sustain the Spiritual man within ,bread of heaven and drinking His blood is our Life in Him , there is life in the blood
I see
In the inner chamber of the heart
Resides Truth of a Purity that cannot be outside
as it ceases to be Pure,
Remaining there, secret, one with HIM alone
In the courtyard, in the outer chamber
Truth is dropped as the heart yearns to Give
It is of the Blood of the Giver
In the hearts of men , but more than that , the Lord Himself said dont look for Him in the dessert or secret chamber/ heart
He will come as lightning out of the east and shone to the west
Matt 24
I am convinced its such an individual seeking of God the Holy FATHER seeking those to worship Him in Spirit and Truth that it is only done on a personal level and no one can say for sure not even the Lord Himself nor the angels they will be gathered one by one according to This scripture
the lost sheep of Israel gathered one by one , this to me is also the fulfilling of the Gentiles come in /all other nations that hear His voice and believe and will live also
Paul mentioned no difference between the jew and gentile Roman 10 ...11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."Its the calling that makes the hope of our election sure this is the time to me . calling on the name of the Lord as those do daily
he Deliverance of Israel
...11When its limbs are dry, they are broken off; Women come and make a fire with them, For they are not a people of discernment, Therefore their Maker will not have compassion on them. And their Creator will not be gracious to them.
12
In that day the LORD will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel. 13
It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem. Now Jesus appeared in Jerusalem and said this to them who heard O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which kill the prophets, and stone them that are sent to you; how often would
I have gathered your children together, as a hen does gather her brood under her wings, and you would not!
so Jesus spoke to the samaritan woman at the well in John 4 and said , you worship what you know not ...21Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23"
But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.... Jesus Christ was declaring the salvaion of all and who will call on the name of the Lord to be saved
here we see its not anything but in SPIRIT AND TRUTH and its always and every where .... not contained but only shown in Spirit and truth is the only way the father is glorified and its not very far from anyone of us Acts 17
Matt 24
26 "If people tell you, '[L Look,] ·the Christ [L he] is in the ·desert [wilderness],' don't go there. If they say, '[L Look,] he is ·in the inner room [or hiding here; in this secret place],' don't believe it. 27 When the Son of Man comes [Dan. 7:13–14], he will be like lightning flashing from the east to the west [C he will be seen by everyone]. 28 Wherever the ·dead body [carcass] is, there the vultures will gather.
29 "Soon after the ·trouble [tribulation; distress] of those days,
'the sun will grow dark,
and the moon will not give its light.
The stars will fall from ·the sky [heaven].
And the ·powers of the heavens [celestial bodies] will be shaken [Is. 13:10; 34:4; cf. Ezek. 32:7–8; Joel 2:10, 31].'
30
"At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in ·the sky [or heaven]. Then all the ·peoples [tribes] of the world will ·cry [mourn]. They will see the Son of Man coming on ·clouds in the sky [or the clouds of heaven] with great power and glory. 31 He will use a loud trumpet to send his angels, and they will gather his ·chosen people [elect] ·from every part of the world [L from the four winds, from one end of the sky/heavens to another].
32 "Learn a ·lesson [parable; analogy] from the fig tree: When its branches ·become green and soft [become tender; sprout] and new leaves appear, you know summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things happening, you will know that ·the time [or he] is near, ·ready to come [right at the door]. 34 I tell you the truth, all these things will happen ·while the people of this time are still living [before this generation passes away; C either the generation that sees the destruction of Jerusalem (ad 70), or a future generation of the end times]. 35 ·Earth and sky will be destroyed [T Heaven and earth will pass away], but the words I have said will never ·be destroyed [pass away].
the fig tree is represented of Israel being destroyed in Jerusalem for everyone to observe even to this day we know its not where the Lord is, GOD IS not in one place But poured out on all flesh and not far from any of us in Spirit and truth we worship GOD , that is anyone born again believer
our hearts are full because the Spirit and truth have come to those who believe and obey His WORD OF TRUTH
I think the parable of the sheep and the goats is commonly misunderstood to be about the judgment of individual sinners before the great white throne, but it is actually about the nations being judged for their treatment of Israel a thousand years before the great white throne judgment. The reason I bring this up is because this parable has been used in an attempt to verify dead souls being alive in the lake of fire or Gehenna to be corrected or chastened. I believe mortals will be dead in both even though the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,14) because Gehenna will simply be used to burn the corpses of executed criminals as it was in the past, and scripture says the lake of fire is the second death.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh" (Isaiah
66:23 & 24).
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I also think the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is commonly understood as a teaching on death when it is actually a case of Christ using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html
There's a lot of information out there that attempts to support the doctrine of the inherent immortality of the soul, but I believe immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church in an attempt to verify its doctrine of immediate and endless torture in fire forever. I know there are many people on this forum who believe in universal reconciliation but also believe in immortality of the soul. This isn't the first time I've seen this information debated. I believe all mankind will eventually be given immortality, but Christ is the only one who has it now. I believe that the ecclesia, the body of Christ, will be immortalized when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air.
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
I believe that those who are judged before the great white throne and cast into the lake of fire, which the inspired written word of God says is the second death, will eventually be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:26). I think it's hard for people to let go of tradition which most of us were probably brought up with in church. Most of us here have had to at least let go of torture in fire forever which is why we're here, but there are other things that I've come to believe are simply tradition of man that also invalidate the word of God. Immortality of the soul is one of them, and the Trinity is another. But I try not to dwell on these much on this forum because everybody seems to get upset about these issues. I have my own personal beliefs like everybody else does. I don't try to hammer anybody with mine. I just try to understand scripture the best I can, and, if something seems to contradict scripture, I let it go even if I suffer persecution from fellow believers for doing so. Persecution is something we've all experienced if we've shared universal reconciliation with fellow believers who haven't yet received that revelation. I just think you can believe whatever you want to based on your own interpretation of scripture, but I believe what I do based on my own study. I don't put anybody down for their beliefs, but I'm always willing to share my perspective if people are respectful and share theirs in the spirit of God's love. I think we're all here to share God's word and God's love. So, if you want to believe that you're alive when you're dead, go for it, but I have to disagree respectfully. And, as has been said before, this stuff doesn't really affect the evangel or universal reconciliation which is mostly what this site is supposed to be about I think.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html
I know it's hard to let go of loved ones who have died, but I don't think it helps to allow ourselves to be deceived into thinking they're actually still alive while they're dead. They're alive in our memories, and I believe they'll be alive again when scripture says we'll all be immortalized. But right now I believe only Christ is immortalized. I know the following scripture has been debated before as to who exactly it's about, but I believe it's about Christ because he's the only one who was mortal who is now immortal until we're snatched away and meet him in the air.
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
I think the Trinity and immortality of the soul both deny the resurrection because, if Christ didn't really die according to what scripture says death is, knowing nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), then the Father didn't really bring him back to life. And I think this all goes back to the serpents's lie to Eve in the garden.
"But the serpent said to the woman: Not to die shall you be dying." (Genesis 3:4)
I think it's all about the tradition of church doctrine perpetuating Satan's deception that we don't die, and God doesn't really have the power to bring the dead back to life. But I say it shouldn't be so incredible that God really brings the dead who are really dead back to life because he obviously has the power to create life itself. So I'm sorry, my brothers and sisters here on the forum, I love you with the love of God, but I have to refuse to continue to go along with what I was taught in church about immortality of the soul because I think it's a distortion of what true immortality is described to be in the inspired written word of God and because I think it's a thinly veiled deception to dishonor the power of God. I think we may be immortalized in spiritual bodies without a soul even being involved because scripture says the soul "is in the blood" and "is its blood" (Leviticus 17:11,14).
"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:42-50)
I'm sorry if I offended anybody by mentioning the Trinity, but I think scripture is clear that God is one not three in one.
"Now concerning the dead, that they are being roused; did you not read in the scroll of Moses, at the thorn bush, how God spoke to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You, then, are much deceived." And, approaching, one of the scribes, hearing them discussing, having perceived that He answered them ideally, inquires of Him, "What is the foremost precept of all?" Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord. And, You shall be loving the Lord your God out of your whole heart, and out of your whole soul, and out of your whole comprehension, and out of your whole strength. This is the foremost precept. And the second is like it: 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'" (Mark 12:26-31)
I included the beginning of that last quote because it's been used in an attempt to verify immortality of the soul, and it immediately precedes the text that should make it clear that God is one not three. The point is that, in order to be "roused," the dead must first be sleeping, not immediately passed from one form of life to another. Christ himself referred to death figuratively as "sleep."
"He said these things, and after this He is saying to them, "Lazarus, our friend, has found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of sleep." The disciples, then, said to Him, "Lord, if he has repose, he shall be saved." Now Jesus had made a declaration concerning his death, yet they suppose that He is saying it concerning the repose of sleep. Jesus, then, said to them with boldness then, "Lazarus died."" (John 11:11-14)
That should make it clear that Christ's people, the Jews, didn't think the dead were alive somewhere else but were figuratively asleep in the literal death state. I don't believe that death changed to a continuation of life as a result of Christ's resurrection. I think that is a misunderstanding of scripture that's propagated by church doctrine.
The thing about the Trinity is not only does it dishonor the Father, but it gives the false impression that Christ didn't really die and therefore wasn't really brought back to life which again goes right back to the lie in the garden (Genesis 3:4).
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)
I'm trying to present all this information without being offensive, but I realize that I'm probably upsetting some people. So I'm going to end this now. I'm sorry to have offended anybody. God bless you all.
What I was getting at in my earlier post was, if Christ was the first on who rose from the dead, as it says in, (Col. 1:18) who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. How could Moses and Elijah, Samuel and others have been first or rose before Christ? Even those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus crucifixion, they were resurrected before Christ.
CHB
I hear ya, and I agree. I also think somebody can be resurrected and not be vivified, in other words immortalized. I think only Christ was resurrected and immortalized so far.
Quote from: CHB on April 20, 2015, 08:47:14 PM
What I was getting at in my earlier post was, if Christ was the first on who rose from the dead, as it says in, (Col. 1:18) who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. How could Moses and Elijah, Samuel and others have been first or rose before Christ? Even those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus crucifixion, they were resurrected before Christ.
CHB
:iagree: Moses, Elijah, Samuel, David have not been converted. :2c:
I think I have seen helpful thoughts given by ew, rosered, shelia that 'The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.'
Add to this: "Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian".
The method of the Earth "time" of this little Earth, only came into being when the world was created through Christ.
The efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time - and was already in effect from the foundation of the world - it is only limited in man's mind by his thinking - man's thinking which seeks to limit the Lord God of all to man's own time, space and causation.
The Christ Manifestation as man, His Life and Death and Resurrection are for the benefit of humanity that they can grasp and understand a little something of the wondrous Love of our God, that He should be remembered by forgetful children who are quick to turn their hearts to stone.
With the Christ Spirit, one's heart can never turn back to stone.
Promising that with experience of the sacrifical Love that the Christ Spirit brings, one can know from experience that Christ's deep, deep sacrifical Love...
Always was before the world was created,
Always was while He walked in a body of flesh,
Always was once He had given up His Spirit on the Cross
Always will be and never will stop...
That's a burning, yearning deep sacrifical Love...constant, always, never failing, never stopping...
To even touch the hem of His Garment should convince any man or woman that the Christ Life cannot have an ending, it simply cannot cease - once the Christ Life has been breathed, the cold hard enemies the mind throws up are exorcised forever, never to return because the child is grafted to the Christ Life, real Life, living Life, ceaseless Life - and only the dead bury the dead.
To me only the vision was showing us what to expect , the coming of those risen when Christ freed them from the hold of death
I do not think this was before hand , Just showing , that is what visions do show what is going to happen shortly
Quote from: lastpost on April 21, 2015, 12:04:35 AM
I think I have seen helpful thoughts given by ew, rosered, shelia that 'The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.'
Add to this: "Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian".
The method of the Earth "time" of this little Earth, only came into being when the world was created through Christ.
The efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time - and was already in effect from the foundation of the world - it is only limited in man's mind by his thinking - man's thinking which seeks to limit the Lord God of all to man's own time, space and causation.
The Christ Manifestation as man, His Life and Death and Resurrection are for the benefit of humanity that they can grasp and understand a little something of the wondrous Love of our God, that He should be remembered by forgetful children who are quick to turn their hearts to stone.
With the Christ Spirit, one's heart can never turn back to stone.
Promising that with experience of the sacrifical Love that the Christ Spirit brings, one can know from experience that Christ's deep, deep sacrifical Love...
Always was before the world was created,
Always was while He walked in a body of flesh,
Always was once He had given up His Spirit on the Cross
Always will be and never will stop...
That's a burning, yearning deep sacrifical Love...constant, always, never failing, never stopping...
To even touch the hem of His Garment should convince any man or woman that the Christ Life cannot have an ending, it simply cannot cease - once the Christ Life has been breathed, the cold hard enemies the mind throws up are exorcised forever, never to return because the child is grafted to the Christ Life, real Life, living Life, ceaseless Life - and only the dead bury the dead.
:goodpost:
Yes indeed its an endless Life :thumbsup:
John 8 the greatI AM THAT I AM !!! Before Abraham Was, I Am
...55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." THE bread and wine being the same bread of Heaven and Blood in Christ back than ....
Hebrews 7 he Priest Melchizedek
7 Melchizedek [C a priest and king in the time of Abraham; Gen. 14:17–24; Heb. 5:6, 10; 6:20] was the king of Salem [C another name for Jerusalem, meaning "peace"; v. 2] and a priest for God Most High. He met Abraham when Abraham was coming back after ·defeating [L the slaughter of] the kings [Gen. 14:17–19]. When they met, Melchizedek blessed Abraham,
2 and Abraham ·gave [L apportioned/divided to] him a ·tenth [tithe] ·of everything he had brought back from the battle [L of everything]. First, Melchizedek's name means "king of ·goodness [righteousness; justice]," and he is king of Salem [C another name for Jerusalem], which means "king of peace."
3
·No one knows who Melchizedek's father or mother was [L ...without father, without mother], ·where he came from [L without genealogy], ·when he was born, or when he died [L having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; C something unstated was assumed not to exist]. Melchizedek is like the Son of God; he continues being a priest forever [C Melchizedek's unmentioned genealogy in Genesis is, by analogy, like Jesus' eternal Sonship and priesthood].
4 You can see how great Melchizedek was. Abraham, the ·great father [patriarch], gave him a tenth of ·everything that he won in battle [the spoils/booty/plunder]. 5 Now the law ·says [authorizes; commands] that those ·in the tribe [L of the sons/descendants] of Levi who become priests must collect a ·tenth [tithe] from the people—their ·own people [L brothers (and sisters)]—even though ·the priests and the people [L they] ·are from the family [are also descendants; L have come from the loins/body] of Abraham.
6 [L But] Melchizedek was not ·from the tribe of Levi [L descended from them; v. 3; C he was not from the Levitical line of priests], but he collected a ·tenth [tithe] from Abraham. And he blessed Abraham, the man who had God's promises [Gen. 12:1–3]. 7 Now ·everyone knows [it is indisputable] that the ·more important person blesses the less important person [L lesser/inferior is blessed by the greater/superior]. 8 ·Priests receive a tenth, even though they are only men who live and then die [L In the one case, mortal men receive a tithe,...].
·But Melchizedek, who received a tenth from Abraham, continues living, as the Scripture says [L ...but in the other case, the one (receives the tithe) who is declared (by Scripture) to be alive]. 9 We might even say that Levi, who receives a ·tenth [tithe], also paid it when Abraham paid Melchizedek a tenth. 10 Levi was not yet born, but he was in the ·body [loins] of his ancestor when Melchizedek met Abraham [C the Levitical priesthood is considered inferior to Melchizedek's (and Christ's) priesthood, since Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek through his ancestor Abraham].
Just awesome !! :HeartThrob:
I personally have no problem with the continuity of life, it is all Christ's life which He has saved from itself. I truly do not believe this is all dependent upon a beautiful human being passing away, which was necessary of course, as I wrote above, but that was a manifestation of what Christ is always doing and has always done - it is symbolical of Christ dying for His children all the time, from the time they were created. Christ's Love never stops and never started to become sacrificial at a certain stage because it always was and is sacrificial.
Sacrifical Love cannot stop being sacrifical Love - that is what it is, and that is what Christ is - Beautiful! Wonderful! Unthinkable! Oh Love of Christ, Love of Christ, Love of Christ - .......
Quote from: lastpost on April 21, 2015, 12:33:12 AM
I personally have no problem with the continuity of life, it is all Christ's life which He has saved from itself. I truly do not believe this is all dependent upon a beautiful human being passing away, which was necessary of course, as I wrote above, but that was a manifestation of what Christ is always doing and has always done - it is symbolical of Christ dying for His children all the time, from the time they were created. Christ's Love never stops and never started to become sacrificial at a certain stage because it always was and is sacrificial.
Sacrifical Love cannot stop being sacrifical Love - that is what it is, and that is what Christ is - Beautiful! Wonderful! Unthinkable! Oh Love of Christ, Love of Christ, Love of Christ - .......
Amen lastpost! Every truth is bound up in Christ Himself, being the very Truth Himself, and I love how your perspective on this is rooted in His reality.
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)I love the above passage, as it shows that we
were raised with Christ, having died, and our life is hidden in Him because He
is our life, and that when He appears, we must appear also!
:banana: :banana: :banana: Thank God for the gift of eloquence!
"If, then, ye were raised with the Christ.." Col 3:1 and "did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus" Eph 2:6 are two instances where a different word [Strong's #4891-"rouse in company with")] is used from other "raise, raised"-Strong's #1453(waken one's faculties) and #450(stand,lift up)- And we know there are according to the Word two types of "death".. the one that is carnality/figurative, and the other which is a lack of life/living, no breath, etc.
old testament believers,
"....sleep with the fathers" "sleep in the dust" "lest I sleep the sleep of death" ps 13:3, all Old Testament but is carried over into the New, 1 Thess 4 - "those who sleep in Christ" and 1 Cor 15 "we shall not all sleep" -
"it is given unto men once to die and then the judgment" judgment is collective.. both at His return when the nations are divided as to goats and sheep, when He comes with fire and angels.. And the WTJ is collective not individual at each person's death.. is punishment or reward given at death, before judgment/trial/"decision"-strong's 2920-krisis-decision
"Some will wake to the resurrection of life, and some to the resurrection of krisis"/judgment/decision.. the resurrection of judgment...
From Rev 20 -
"and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
If the saints live on after their death and before resurrection, what have they all been doing? Some for almost 2000 years now.. imo, it sounds very disorderly for such an otherwise orderly universe..
From John 6 - #1453(waken one's faculties) and #450(stand,lift up)
39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;
40 and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.'
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
54 he who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, hath life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day;
Also interesting, "sleep"
Romans 13:11 - "it is high time to awake out of sleep" Strong's #5258-spiritual torpor
and 1 Thess 5:6 - "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober." Strong's #2518-lie down, rest, fall asleep
1 Thess 4:14 "sleep in Christ" Strong's #2837-put to sleep, from #2749-lie outstretched (also used for appointed)
:2c: :Peace2: :smile:
:thumbsup: the Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst=camp of the Holy city He loves= those just passing through.........
look at Jerusalem in the earth....a sign of the restoration/establishing..is not the little nation of Israel[as a physical sign in the earth]
surrounded by her enemies. Thou dwells in the midst of deception..........because the wicked compass about the righteous...therefore doth
not sound judgement go forth. satan released and goes forth=the falling away of truth] and decieves all the nations...Gog and Mag
and surrounds [the camp] of the city He loves= those who are seeking the city not made with human hands=Jesus return/deliverance
and the lifting up what was/is temporal to the immortal/incorrupt permanat realm.12 foundations/worlds in one eternal city..not dust of earth
but precious stones[living stones raised up]
it's been 2000 yrs since He ascended......what day is today?
Quote from: sheila on April 21, 2015, 09:58:25 PM
:thumbsup: the Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst=camp of the Holy city He loves= those just passing through.........
look at Jerusalem in the earth....a sign of the restoration/establishing..is not the little nation of Israel[as a physical sign in the earth]
surrounded by her enemies. Thou dwells in the midst of deception..........because the wicked compass about the righteous...therefore doth
not sound judgement go forth. satan released and goes forth=the falling away of truth] and decieves all the nations...Gog and Mag
and surrounds [the camp] of the city He loves= those who are seeking the city not made with human hands=Jesus return/deliverance
and the lifting up what was/is temporal to the immortal/incorrupt permanat realm.12 foundations/worlds in one eternal city..not dust of earth
but precious stones[living stones raised up]
it's been 2000 yrs since He ascended......what day is today?
The year's of our Lord A.D.? :smile:
..how blest we are to know it is God's will "that none should perish". I see cemeteries as gravestones as heads of the beds.. Seeds, God's beautiful garden. We cannot conceive of loved ones who have left us, as being gone.. perished.. This is like knowing that all atheists, deep within, know there is God.. It's just something that's known.
I think of true death/dying as total not being-ness.. to perish. But we don't "die".. we rest (whether in sleep or somewhere restful) and then we are raised..
Quote from: sheila on April 21, 2015, 09:58:25 PM
one eternal city..not dust of earth
but precious stones[living stones raised up]
:banana: :banana: how beautiful! :dsunny:
Quote from: lastpost on April 21, 2015, 12:04:35 AM
The efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time - and was already in effect from the foundation of the world - it is only limited in man's mind by his thinking - man's thinking which seeks to limit the Lord God of all to man's own time, space and causation.
I've always wondered if Moses and Elijah when seen at Jesus' transfiguration, if they came (in) from beyond time.. :smile: ..so both pre and post the resurrections :mrflo:
Or please may I put it another way, yes, please...
As love-thoughts thrown off from God, through His Christ
who willingly died and rose for each one before birth
to accompany each caretaker
who grabbed for power and opposed God's Will
and dragged their charges [nature] with them groaning
becoming the vaguest shadow of former Purity
The battlefield of life is unreal shadow
the Devil of lies imitates life to fool man
at the last moment he is content with the unreal
Christ is needed to overcome
thus the Cross with its Power
so life ever turns from unreal to real
so Blood gives consciousness to the race
to rise and meet the Lord as He approaches
I am not worthy Lord
As your child emerges into your Love
So Love fulfils itself
Now - Now is the time, unbroken eternity
To learn the simple things
So remembrance does not blot the joy
That the hungry were not fed
Peace and again Peace
:girlheart: you speak so well..what I know in my spirit......
Thank you Sheila. It would sound like idle tales to most people to tell them that I'm just a sinner trying to pass on what I have learnt from SPIRIT, coming to know Christ and His Love from Spirit before even before looking for Him in the Sacred Record left for mankind, and finding Him there too yet finding an awful lot of strange and disturbing things said about Him by His representatives - disturbing as it feels to me that they degrade Him and it hinders Him being known by sensible sentient people who look at the fruits and decide it's not for them. So, really, I can say that, in my opinion, while I'm very imperfect and a sinner, what I say is from Spirit, so if it resonates with ones spirit, then that's the reason and I've managed to pass on something, thank God.
Rev. 13:8 (Emp. Diaglott) And all who dwell on the Earth shall worship him, whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the scroll of the life of that lamb who was killed."
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.(ASV)
:Peace2:
My :2c: I am 70 yrs. old with prostate cancer and if that does not cause my death something will cause me to quit this breath of life [which some contend is spirit] Alive= H2421 chay=to live. When I quit that breath my body(flesh-soil)will go back to the dust as with all flesh. I, that's me, see the word spirit in Ecc. 12:7 is the very breath I began with, yes in a sense it is spirit for He is the Father of "spirits." (Heb. 12:9)
Ecc 3:19 For the destiny of the sons of humanity And the destiny of the beast, It is one destiny for them; As death is for this one, so is death for that one, And one spirit is for all; There is no advantage for the human over the beast, For the whole is vanity."Ecc 3:20 All are going to one place; All have come from the soil, and all return to the soil."Ecc 3:21 Who is knowing about the spirit of the sons of humanity, Whether it is ascending above, And the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending below to the earth? Ecc 3:22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than that he rejoices in his works Since that is his portion; For who can bring him to see what shall come after him?
Ecc 9:4 Indeed for anyone who is joined with all the living there is trust; For it is better for a living cur than a dead lion. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
But this I know Gal 2:20 With Christ have I been crucified, yet I am living; no longer I, but living in me is Christ. Now that which I am now living in flesh, I am living in faith that is of the Son of God, Who loves me, and gives Himself up for me."
Here we speculate and interpret.... 2Co 5:6 Being, then, courageous always, and aware that, being at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord"
2Co 5:7 (for by faith are we walking, not by perception),
2Co 5:8 yet we are encouraged, and are delighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord."
He is Risen! :dsunny:
Hebrews
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Quote from: Abigail on April 19, 2015, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: lastpost on April 18, 2015, 10:32:08 PM
I believe it is also harmful to be anticipating catastrophe
:iagree: When I grew up, I always was anticipating a catastrophe
Dear Abigail,
I wonder if I might give an opinion about a subtle point concerning anticipating or foretelling the calamities, the tribulations and the catastrophes:
The mind of the body needs to grasp what happens as a consequence of these things, and that is the linking up a person with the One - the only One - who when the time comes, is able to provide the help. It helps in a measure the release of the Divine within, a degree of emancipation from the stranglehold that the lesser self has on the spirit.
From the spiritual viewpoint, focussing on foretelling the coming of trouble
itself: this concentrates the mind of the body on these things and therefore
it weakens the individual instead of strengthening, because the focus is on
the fear of the shadows rather than on grasping the underlying shaking free of the spirit from the suffocation of the baser self bound to the world.
Wisdom concerns the things which are
of God. Concentrating on plagues, famines, storms and earthquakes is concentrating on knowledge of the things of
the earth. Probing beneath the surface of earthly things is revealing
earthly knowledge - and only in a measure at that - however it is
not revealing wisdom, and wisdom is of God - and as we love the Master Jesus, we should always keep our thoughts on the highest and best.
I hope this subtle point has been brought out.
Finally, amongst all the trouble going on at this moment, may we prayerfully think of those left behind who have lost loved ones in the devastation of the recent Nepalese disaster. Thank you so much.
Quote from: marie glen on April 21, 2015, 10:53:42 PM
Quote from: lastpost on April 21, 2015, 12:04:35 AM
The efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time - and was already in effect from the foundation of the world - it is only limited in man's mind by his thinking - man's thinking which seeks to limit the Lord God of all to man's own time, space and causation.
I've always wondered if Moses and Elijah when seen at Jesus' transfiguration, if they came (in) from beyond time.. :smile: ..so both pre and post the resurrections :mrflo:
Not at all an unreasonable theory or hypothysis. In fact, I think it quite likely, certainly possible.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 04, 2015, 01:33:06 AM
Quote from: marie glen on April 21, 2015, 10:53:42 PM
Quote from: lastpost on April 21, 2015, 12:04:35 AM
The efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time - and was already in effect from the foundation of the world - it is only limited in man's mind by his thinking - man's thinking which seeks to limit the Lord God of all to man's own time, space and causation.
I've always wondered if Moses and Elijah when seen at Jesus' transfiguration, if they came (in) from beyond time.. :smile: ..so both pre and post the resurrections :mrflo:
Not at all an unreasonable theory or hypothysis. In fact, I think it quite likely, certainly possible.
Hi ew et al,
May I just say that when I was referring to the efficacy of Christ's Sacrifice, I was really meaning Christ in His omnipresent spiritual form as being the Essence and totality of Sacrificial Love and Wisdom, i.e. that Christ, the Beginning and the End, was, is and always will be, the Living Sacrifice - that is what Christ is, and such a Being does not change, even when uniting Himself with the Godhead.
I was meaning the Spiritual Christ in a pre-earth sense of which most are familiar...
"...the
Lamb slain from the
foundation [katabole: to conceive, laying down (of), founding] of the
world [kosmos]" Revelation 13:8
...namely the Word who was with GOD from the so-named beginning...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" John 1
I was trying to express that Christ has always been the combined union of sacrificial death and raised life - that is what Christ
is, that is what Divine Love
is - He would, does, and will, die for each and every one of His children over and over again - and I actually believe that He does this because His love is a true, pure and perfect Love - He
is Love - and He ceaselessly gives HIMSELF in sacrifice for His children.
[Does not that thought cause the heart to cry out in love to the Saviour? Shall not more reverence and humility be laid upon us over and over again as Christ reveals Himself more and yet more deeply over the coming ages, as we are able to take it in?]
When each one of His little ones was birthed or about to be birthed, Christ saw the whole journey back to restored perfection, and His spiritual Heart of Love stopped out of the deepest and purest love for each one. He died and revived there and then for each one.
However, I am impelled to make somethng of a distinction between this reference to the omnipresent Spiritual Christ and His Manifestation in Jesus, born in Bethlehem in Judea.
The effect of His death as the Manifestation in Christ Jesus on the Cross 2,000 years ago, must not be underestimated, as this was simply an unthinkable blessing for young humanity.
Indeed, to the Cross He went, burdened with the sins of mankind. That deep step was cut by Him so that those who have lost their way might see the gleam of that shining step hewn out of the mountainside, hasten their footsteps and climb in turn. Christ died a terrible death so that we would remember Him; simply passing away naturally would not have had such an everlasting and deep influence.
It is probable that we would not have heard of Him had He not died on the Cross, nor would we be communicating as civilised people, for had Christ not gone to the Cross, we would be lower than the beasts of the field - but of course that is hypothetical because the perfect Divine Plan could never fail.
It was absolutely essential for that most gracious Sacrifice to take place in order that the influence that Christ Jesus would leave upon this world should resound throughout the generations, and thereby affect the hearts, minds and spirits of mankind from shore to shore.
Without the Crucifixion, the teachings and example of Jesus Christ would not have had the deep and everlasting effect that they have had.
Today, we have the Saviour, we have the Holy Spirit of God in Christ to redeem all mankind - and glory to Him, we need no other but Him. Christ, the Alpha and Omega, is All-knowledge, All-wisdom, All-Power, and man can knock and ask at the Door.
Peace ✞
The WORD is TRUTH
Truth did not begin, therefore there is no new truth, only that which is revealed.
"...and there is not an entirely new thing under the sun"
As the child of GOD unfolds so is gained clearer vision, and the area for Christ-action is extended.
It is a duty to enter into the Realms of the Spirit to be with GOD, therefore the whole being must be prepared by consecration and prayer.
With GOD the protection against false teachers is assured.
The cause of GOD and every man can greatly benefit when there are three souls together in perfect communion.
Ecclesiastes 4:12
"Though one may be overpowered,
Two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken"
Leaning on external help is of no real benefit, only being guided by the Spirit within can Truth be revealed.
In Reality, the Spirit within cannot be influenced by the mind of man.
Enter the love released from the Christ within. The passion of giving will manifest and understanding will flood.
Peace ✞
I believe perhaps the class graduated and I was held behind. No problem. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lastpost on May 05, 2015, 01:02:07 AM
The WORD is TRUTH
Truth did not begin, therefore there is no new truth, only that which is revealed.
"...and there is not an entirely new thing under the sun"
As the child of GOD unfolds so is gained clearer vision, and the area for Christ-action is extended.
It is a duty to enter into the Realms of the Spirit to be with GOD, therefore the whole being must be prepared by consecration and prayer.
With GOD the protection against false teachers is assured.
The cause of GOD and every man can greatly benefit when there are three souls together in perfect communion.
Ecclesiastes 4:12
"Though one may be overpowered,
Two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken"
Leaning on external help is of no real benefit, only being guided by the Spirit within can Truth be revealed.
In Reality, the Spirit within cannot be influenced by the mind of man.
Enter the love released from the Christ within. The passion of giving will manifest and understanding will flood.
Peace ✞
On the other hand, all truth is "new"...... for the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword. :o)
Absolutely.
There is no truth whether past, present or future, of which All-Truth is unaware...
"Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please" Isaiah 46:9-10
Truth gives relative truth to each one, according to their need...
"I have yet many things to say to you, but ye are not able to bear them now"
All-Truth is too vast for us to take in...
"...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things" 1 John 3:20
When a child of God receives Divine truth, all they behold is made new by Him - the truth has altered their old understanding and perception to something new.
Yet, that truth has always been alive in the Living Truth...
"For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it completely" Psalm 139:4
Peace ✞
:thumbsup:
Yes it is , sure is new to the new believer too :dsunny: I learn something new all the time about the truth ...
Example ..w hen first starting
I thought we were either or , all good , or all evil ... when the Lord divides us .. I now Know it is HIM whom will set apart from a whole and HE changes us :HeartThrob:
I know now also . we all start off as both good and evil mix , it makes much more sense and all included , instead of that "self righteous " attitude taken when you think
your saved and everyone else is doomed , and you are in constant fear that you will loose "your place " at any time in the Lord ..
As being " no rest for the wicked " ' deceiving your own heart thinking you are in good shape and that is everyone elses problem to get "it right " by the works of the Law , it is very confusing to step into "religious territory " looking for GOD ..
And things just not setting right and feeling right when you listen .
Until I realized it is the Lord whom saves us all , and I mean all and we are His help meet .. as a loving union , part of His own body the hands and feet according to Paul expounding on this in 1Corth 12 His own glorified Body . deception was inevitable and a sure thing
you could bet your life on it and loose it for sure .
Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
Isa 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
Jos 1:2 `Moses my servant is dead, and now, rise, pass over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel.
Quote from: lastpost on May 04, 2015, 07:38:58 PM
Hi ew et al,
May I just say that when I was referring to the efficacy of Christ's Sacrifice, I was really meaning Christ in His omnipresent spiritual form as being the Essence and totality of Sacrificial Love and Wisdom, i.e. that Christ, the Beginning and the End, was, is and always will be, the Living Sacrifice - that is what Christ is, and such a Being does not change, even when uniting Himself with the Godhead.
I was meaning the Spiritual Christ in a pre-earth sense of which most are familiar...
"...the Lamb slain from the foundation [katabole: to conceive, laying down (of), founding] of the world [kosmos]" Revelation 13:8
...namely the Word who was with GOD from the so-named beginning...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" John 1
I was trying to express that Christ has always been the combined union of sacrificial death and raised life - that is what Christ is, that is what Divine Love is - He would, does, and will, die for each and every one of His children over and over again - and I actually believe that He does this because His love is a true, pure and perfect Love - He is Love - and He ceaselessly gives HIMSELF in sacrifice for His children.
[Does not that thought cause the heart to cry out in love to the Saviour? Shall not more reverence and humility be laid upon us over and over again as Christ reveals Himself more and yet more deeply over the coming ages, as we are able to take it in?]
When each one of His little ones was birthed or about to be birthed, Christ saw the whole journey back to restored perfection, and His spiritual Heart of Love stopped out of the deepest and purest love for each one. He died and revived there and then for each one.
However, I am impelled to make somethng of a distinction between this reference to the omnipresent Spiritual Christ and His Manifestation in Jesus, born in Bethlehem in Judea.
The effect of His death as the Manifestation in Christ Jesus on the Cross 2,000 years ago, must not be underestimated, as this was simply an unthinkable blessing for young humanity.
Indeed, to the Cross He went, burdened with the sins of mankind. That deep step was cut by Him so that those who have lost their way might see the gleam of that shining step hewn out of the mountainside, hasten their footsteps and climb in turn. Christ died a terrible death so that we would remember Him; simply passing away naturally would not have had such an everlasting and deep influence.
It is probable that we would not have heard of Him had He not died on the Cross, nor would we be communicating as civilised people, for had Christ not gone to the Cross, we would be lower than the beasts of the field - but of course that is hypothetical because the perfect Divine Plan could never fail.
It was absolutely essential for that most gracious Sacrifice to take place in order that the influence that Christ Jesus would leave upon this world should resound throughout the generations, and thereby affect the hearts, minds and spirits of mankind from shore to shore.
Without the Crucifixion, the teachings and example of Jesus Christ would not have had the deep and everlasting effect that they have had.
Today, we have the Saviour, we have the Holy Spirit of God in Christ to redeem all mankind - and glory to Him, we need no other but Him. Christ, the Alpha and Omega, is All-knowledge, All-wisdom, All-Power, and man can knock and ask at the Door.
Peace ✞
:iagree: I agree! I think of it as Jesus on the cross (His love expressed) as a strong enough `symbol` to pierce every psyche.. ultimately reaching every hardened heart.. I believe every heart will be naturally softened by that strong love, the image of His mistreated bloody form hanging upon the cross, hanging, because of His and the Father's so strong and self sacrificial LOVE.. "If I be lifted up from the earth" Jesus said, "I will draw all to me".
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 05, 2015, 04:29:14 PM
Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
Isa 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
Jos 1:2 `Moses my servant is dead, and now, rise, pass over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel.
This is all well and good Micah ,
but it was the time of those still held in bondage of sin and still under the law , all the prophets spoke of the warning of destruction and the good things to come , that being JESUS CHRIST coming to save the world
It was not until , I knew , By Jesus own words telling us the Kingdom suffered much violence , by men taking it be force , until Jesus Come on the scene to show them the only way to please God would be by his own sacrifice " of Himself " gift of grace , open show of it though the Lamb had been slain from the foundation of the world ,, that was no longer a hidden thing , but an open ACT of Him laying down His own life , and no one took it
from Him , We know Noah received grace and truth and Life and so did Abraham , David and many , many did , but the open show changed the course , that suffering though the violence would not be the requirement now , for all to enter now as they would come needing help and mercy
Remember Jesus telling the sons of thunder they did not know what manner of spirit they were of ? as they wanted to bring fire down and destroy the city for not receiving Jesus Christ .......
It was the old way , by force and violence , but God always sent a prophet to warn them first to repent or they would suffer for their rebellion
But JESUS COME TO SAVE THE WORLD not destroy it , HIS WAY IS, BY LOVE , MERCY AND GREAT GRACE ,, the non violence to enter the gates to the Kingdom of God , the realm of the Spirit and Truth though His gifts of Himself and His presence within them
His FATHERS WORK and His work ," together as" ONE " , and to their own Glory !!! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on May 05, 2015, 05:07:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 05, 2015, 04:29:14 PM
Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
Isa 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
Jos 1:2 `Moses my servant is dead, and now, rise, pass over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel.
This is all well and good Micah ,
but it was the time of those still held in bondage of sin and still under the law , all the prophets spoke of the warning of destruction and the good things to come , that being JESUS CHRIST coming to save the world
It was not until , I knew , By Jesus own words telling us the Kingdom suffered much violence , by men taking it be force , until Jesus Come on the scene to show them the only way to please God would be by his own sacrifice " of Himself " gift of grace , open show of it though the Lamb had been slain from the foundation of the world ,, that was no longer a hidden thing , but an open ACT of Him laying down His own life , and no one took it
from Him , We know Noah received grace and truth and Life and so did Abraham , David and many , many did , but the open show changed the course , that suffering though the violence would not be the requirement now , for all to enter now as they would come needing help and mercy
Remember Jesus telling the sons of thunder they did not know what manner of spirit they were of ? as they wanted to bring fire down and destroy the city for not receiving Jesus Christ .......
It was the old way , by force and violence , but God always sent a prophet to warn them first to repent or they would suffer for their rebellion
But JESUS COME TO SAVE THE WORLD not destroy it , HIS WAY IS, BY LOVE , MERCY AND GREAT GRACE ,, the non violence to enter the gates to the Kingdom of God , the realm of the Spirit and Truth though His gifts of Himself and His presence within them
His FATHERS WORK and His work ," together as" ONE " , and to their own Glory !!! :HeartThrob:
I believe this for then, now, and will be......Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
Isa 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
Dear Micah , you are welcome to stay under the law all you want brother :thumbsup:
God has set both ways to bring about life and death and inherit ''all things '' though Jesus Christ
HEBREWS 8 The New Covenant
...12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
the old heavens and earth were the old testament , the new heavens and earth are in Christ Jesus .. the LIGHT OF DAY
the old testament is being fulfilled in Jesus Christ when the new comes for us individually and according to the desire of God to give the increase
the glass darkly we look though is the shadow of the good things to come in the LIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE OF JESUS CHRIST
the old testament and covenant is that shadow and the light of the moon .... the promise of Jesus Christ to come . Rev 12
WE LOVE THEM ALL :HeartThrob:
the Sun and the Day are the new covenant being done perfectly by His Spirit & truth :dsunny:
Quote
Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
Isa 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
I think it might help to first picture All-Truth as being One with the Supreme Being, GOD, and that He existed before this tiny earth was brought into being for the raising up of man.
All-Truth has always been aware of every future creation (manifestation of His Mind) to come into Creation [only man's limitations would assume that GOD could not know what He would create].
The things He manifested (created new) were hidden from man because they were in un-manifested form (they had not been created in Creation), but they were always known in His Divine Being which is SPIRIT - yet unknown to man.
And I firmly believe nobody will become omniscient once alive in God's Greater World - meaning that there are many, many more 'new' things in store for each one [Thank GOD].
Quote from: lastpost on May 05, 2015, 07:28:15 PM
Quote
Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
Isa 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
I think it might help to first picture All-Truth as being One with the Supreme Being, GOD, and that He existed before this tiny earth was brought into being for the raising up of man.
All-Truth has always been aware of every future creation (manifestation of His Mind) to come into Creation [only man's limitations would assume that GOD could not know what He would create].
The things He manifested (created new) were hidden from man because they were in un-manifested form (they had not been created in Creation), but they were always known in His Divine Being which is SPIRIT - yet unknown to man.
And I firmly believe nobody will become omniscient once alive in God's Greater World - meaning that there are many, many more 'new' things in store for each one [Thank GOD].
:iagree: Amen , I do believe that last post made by me was a bit harsh , sorry Micah , I was locked up tight under the law till the Lord comes to release that hold of death on every last one of us , knowing I could do nothing in my own power nor blood to fulfill Gods will desire .. we can only share our own experiences and that does not make any sense to any one till they experience them for themselves......
Its not until the Lamb of God opens the seals of the book do any of us even have a clue to what the mystery is ,of Gods plan until , He desires you to Know Him... on the level He Alone has given ..
but struggle is the only thing that we remember after coming out of from under the law and so true the on going Victory is won in and though Jesus Christ our everything !! :HeartThrob:
I think the bottom line is "what happens when you die" is you're oblivious, figuratively sleeping, unseen until the resurrection when Christ will call you in a changed spiritual body, immortalized, to meet him in the air.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:42-55)
Hi Tom I do believe they do RISE IN CHRIST into the knowledge of God by the Spirit of truth
tell the world about this power of God though Jesus Christ !
it is true we are not the God of the dead but the LIVING FOR ALL LIVE TO HIM !!
Matt 10.
...7"And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
' 8"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. 9"Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,
The beast seat is the one who stays in the darkness this outer darkness is void and with out God or Christ in its kingdom , for me this is exactly what we experiences before the Lord come to save us from ourselves
Everyone born is like a beast in the sense of it runs on instinct to kill its prey or fight to survive , many scriptures speaks of mankind being like the beasts in nature
And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
can a natural beast repent of its deeds ? its very nature ? or is the scriptures showing us our own carnal nature is like a beast before Him ?
I believe we are most ignorant and dead to God in the beastly carnal nature first ...
every last one of us before the conception and new birthing of the sons of God to Gods glory
Revelation 16: 10-11
We can look upon the natural truths and see the Spiritual truths now also
Quote from: lastpost on May 03, 2015, 11:23:56 PM
Quote from: Abigail on April 19, 2015, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: lastpost on April 18, 2015, 10:32:08 PM
I believe it is also harmful to be anticipating catastrophe
:iagree: When I grew up, I always was anticipating a catastrophe
Dear Abigail,
I wonder if I might give an opinion about a subtle point concerning anticipating or foretelling the calamities, the tribulations and the catastrophes:
The mind of the body needs to grasp what happens as a consequence of these things, and that is the linking up a person with the One - the only One - who when the time comes, is able to provide the help. It helps in a measure the release of the Divine within, a degree of emancipation from the stranglehold that the lesser self has on the spirit.
From the spiritual viewpoint, focussing on foretelling the coming of trouble itself: this concentrates the mind of the body on these things and therefore it weakens the individual instead of strengthening, because the focus is on the fear of the shadows rather than on grasping the underlying shaking free of the spirit from the suffocation of the baser self bound to the world.
Wisdom concerns the things which are of God. Concentrating on plagues, famines, storms and earthquakes is concentrating on knowledge of the things of the earth. Probing beneath the surface of earthly things is revealing earthly knowledge - and only in a measure at that - however it is not revealing wisdom, and wisdom is of God - and as we love the Master Jesus, we should always keep our thoughts on the highest and best.
I hope this subtle point has been brought out.
Finally, amongst all the trouble going on at this moment, may we prayerfully think of those left behind who have lost loved ones in the devastation of the recent Nepalese disaster. Thank you so much.
Lastpost, as I understand you well, you're saying to focus on our Saviour instead of on our fears?
I must honestly say this is the greatest struggle in my life. I have a tendency to think God is indifferent (I think this comes from free-will-teaching & faith movement: save yourself by believing right!) Yet recently I find myself being afraid God may allow terrible things to happen in our lifes to teach us. I feel like I'm too much viewing God from a distance instead of relating to Him and talking to Him about everything.
Quote
Lastpost, as I understand you well, you're saying to focus on our Saviour instead of on our fears?
I must honestly say this is the greatest struggle in my life. I have a tendency to think God is indifferent (I think this comes from free-will-teaching & faith movement: save yourself by believing right!) Yet recently I find myself being afraid God may allow terrible things to happen in our lifes to teach us. I feel like I'm too much viewing God from a distance instead of relating to Him and talking to Him about everything.
Dear Abigail,
I believe that this is about the Love of God and the need for fear to be replaced by it. I hope you can bear with me a while...
The churches that I hear people talking about on this forum do not exist where I have spent most of my life and I am not familiar with them, and in all honesty, I do not think I would have ever found them appealing, although I did once or twice go to a little Pentecostal church, but the people were so very strange with no answers, and I do not ever remember feeling a presence of Christ there. However, I have been studying the effect of manmade teachings on people here and I see how deeply they affect a person, even many years after they have rejected a particular form of teaching. And I see that your families and friends are often tied up in this church life so it is also a cultural matter, which makes it more difficult.
Yes, in my opinion, studying Christ will help you realise the Love of God. From my own experience I can say that Christ is living inside, and yet it is possible not give Him the freedom and release that He is only too willing to give.
I realise that people harmed by churches have had a sense of fear instilled into them concerning God. This is all down to man and his mind being influenced one way or another by what I will call 'the shadows', which refers to anything which hinders the Love of God.
Abigail, I have never had a fear of God, such an idea is alien to my experience. I spent a large portion of my life being taught that God is Love, and my meditation and underlying awareness is founded on that. It would simply be impossible for me to see God as being anything but Love. So you can perhaps imagine how heart-breaking for me it can be hearing people continue to attribute to God any bad quality and yet being unable to escape from feeling it, when I know it does not really exist in Him.
I am not saying that fear does not play an essential part in a sinner coming to repentance for violating the laws of Love. But what I have found impossible to convey to ex-church people is that the God who is Love plays no part in creating fear.
Ah, yes, I know all about the Old Testament God and what the Bible says about Him. But I view the Bible differently. I see it as the enfoldment of God to a wayward mankind, and having come to a certain level of revelation, so He unfolds Himself some more (a pattern which I believe continues long after so called death).
Goodness, what those people got up to - pure evil! What exactly would they listen to? If you walked up to people in Old Testament days who were sacrificing their children in a vile and horrific manner to some god, and you said to them: "God is Love, you should not be doing that" - such a people would think you were insane, they would not even have a clue as to what Love is (or they would not be doing what they were doing).
Anyway, the point is, the God of the Old Testament was God the Ruler. And not wanting to jump the gun, so to speak, I believe that God uses man to carry out His plans, and in the gathering together of old records, a lot of which had never been written down over the years but had existed in the minds of tribes and national story tellers, so the kernel of truth remained at the centre of man's gloss. But there is always a spiritual meaning if not a localised direct and literal truth. I have said this is my opinion but I have very good reasons for it. [And regardless of what people may say, ultimately, man makes his decisions in the final count, based upon his Reason, whether it be sound reason or not].
Then, to cut a long story short, Abigail, we have the Loving Saviour of mankind, the Gentle Shepherd, making His appearance. Love Incarnate no less!
Now He was to change things forever concerning peoples' notion about God. The Christ of God, in whom dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily, was Himself gentleness, tenderness, purity and kindness. He taught about having to learn how to have the innocence of a little child. Jesus as much said to His disciples, look at Me, I have spent days and nights with you, teaching you about God, and if you have seen Me then you have seen your Father God - this is really what your God is like, like Me.
Jesus emanated Divine Love from His very Presence in human form - yet a man was He, not seeking to bring any advantage that others did not have. He was to show man how to live - the pure, sinless life, full of the most powerful temptations that no others would be asked to face, and yet overcoming them all. He showed man what was possible, and He did not condemn a Trier who failed but held out His loving arms, asking them to arise and try again, assuring them in such a caring manner that if only they had the faith they could do it.
When Christ lived amongst men, it was the greatest and most splendid instance of the highest selflessness and tenacity of purpose. With man, Jesus lived a life of work most practical and earnest, and for Truth He died a death which was pure self-sacrifice.
Try as man may, he will not find a Person as pure and loving and who lived such a perfect life as Jesus Christ - and He lived more simply too. With Jesus, there were no strange manmade doctrines, they all came soon after He had departed. Soon the minds of men were to start complicating things. Men who were receiving messages from the Spirit, men who had received instruction from the Master Christ Himself, even these men were not totally free from the need to create doctrines based upon their old ways, the brainwashing culture which Christ had come to set them free from - man seems to need to add gloss to Truth because it seems too simple.
I need not say anything about how bizarre and distributed today's religious doctrines have got to, as you mention these as the cause of your problem.
Man should get back to Jesus Christ, and so we shall, if you are still reading this, that is. Christ introduced a new form of spiritual teaching, or rather one which was alien to His hearers. He taught the obedient will and the humble heart. He taught the turning of the other cheek, the forgiveness not just of one's friends but rather shockingly to some, the forgiveness of one's enemies.
Christ comprehensively refuted the strangulating doctrines that man had put on the laws, and in so doing laid the groundwork to spiritualise it and refine it, He instilled into it a new spiritual life and power, and upon the people He breathed new life and renewed their dynamism - the external show, the tradition, He replaced all this with the focus on the humble heart, with the spirit of affection - and for all this, He was crucified through the jealousy and fear of the priests.
What Jesus changed concerning the outlook of people towards their God, was the replacement of attrition with contrition. Now He taught about a God who was Love, not a God who was to be feared. This was such a hard concept for those to whom He spoke to grasp. Yes, they could understand God the Ruler, the almighty God Jehovah who demanded their goods and trinkets in order to escape a fate worse than a thousand deaths. And the priests made sure they kept the fear energised in the people. But a God of Love...so Jesus was limited to how far He could take them regarding knowing about the Love of God.
And so it is today - it is possible to know a God who is Love and have Christ live inside of you - but not the God of the letter portrayed in Christianity today, please note . You see, while I am interested in all this study about various translations of words (well, I started learning about 'aion' a quarter of a century ago), I say with all honesty, ultimately it is irrelevant because all that a person needs to do is believe that God is Love, study the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, and then read between the lines in the sacred records collected together by inspired men in the first millennium (again, making their ultimate decision based on human Reason, inspired by God and angels no doubt, but still Reason being the final judge).
Jesus the Healer went about healing people - that they came to Him was enough, He would heal them in body and mind. Yes, He preached repentance, but this was because He knew what the violation of the laws of Love - the laws that He Himself had brought into being at Creation - what such violation brings upon the soul.
And this is a point I want to try to get over - whatever repercussions come to the soul when they oppose the law of Love - this is not the Supreme Being, the God who is Love, Himself imposing such repercussions. What is happening is that the laws that are in operation since the beginning of Creation are taking effect - they cannot be circumvented. If someone intentionally harms another innocent human being, then they will literally reap what they have sown - as a man sows, so indeed does he reap - whatever is meted out, so it is metered back.
Of course repentance and expiation must be taken into account but that is another huge subject, but please let me express my opinion, God is Love and His love never stops being poured out upon His child, no matter how wayward. But the angels He sends to help mankind are not there to take away the results of a person's wickedness, they are there to help that soul face the truth of their wicked ways and repent.
My heart goes out to you. I have tried to take this beyond traditional Christian teaching without it sounding too far removed, and to help you come to a place where the God who is Love has been brought out of the pages of the Holy Book by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, a place where the history of His unfolding Divine Love can be sensed at least, a place where the Spirit arises and the letter retreats, a place where you need not fear the legalists quoting words which were meant for hearts far more hardened than your obviously gentle heart, a place where the mind of man cannot affect the Spirit of Christ within you.
And on that theme, I suppose I ought to try, in all humility I hope, to give my testimony of the Christ within, so that you know it is possible. When the love of Christ arises within, and you meet that love, it is like nothing else known, it is like a force of sweet yet overpowering...energy, that is full of passion, but this passion wants to give itself away, and it drives you crazy because you have no idea how to give it away, after all it is inside of you, powerful, the love of Christ - it gives, gives, gives, gives, and gives again, it never stops trying to give itself away! And you are in the middle of it all not knowing how to fulfil the overwhelming desire. That is essentially why I came back to this forum - it was a couple of these experiences that urged me back here, because in all honesty, I was beginning to give up any hope that people would ever understand what I might try to say, and the things I heard about God, well, I tell you the truth, they hurt, and I would rather not hear.
I could say a lot more but it might sound too strange just coming out of the blue, so to speak, so I'll leave it at that. Pray to the Father God, meditate on the Christ within, take some moments to consciously do this as a separate moment of the day, free from being involved in action. When Jesus was healing, I believe that He was not thinking of worldly things, His Mind was on the healing. I promise you, Christ is the answer to everything, Christ, Christ, Christ...let Christ guide you, the Christ-Spirit is Holy, is Spirit.
I hope this helps in some way.
Peace ✞
QuoteMy :2c: I am 70 yrs. old with prostate cancer and if that does not cause my death something will cause me to quit this breath of life [which some contend is spirit] Alive= H2421 chay=to live. When I quit that breath my body(flesh-soil)will go back to the dust as with all flesh. I, that's me, see the word spirit in Ecc. 12:7 is the very breath I began with, yes in a sense it is spirit for He is the Father of "spirits." (Heb. 12:9)
Feeling really sorry for you. It might already be too late, but anyway, here are a couple of interesting links you should watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl8Y8I_TsjI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEQFno794s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHnO02G3qww
But it maybe already too late for you.
I know im going to get into trouble for this, but i would like you to contact me. There is something that i can do for you, but i cannot mention it here or i will get into trouble. Please contact me at
Joneshenry@hotmail.com
Quote from: Abigail on May 05, 2015, 10:40:39 PM
When I grew up, I always was anticipating a catastrophe
I have a tendency to think God is indifferent ... find myself being afraid God may allow terrible things to happen in our lifes to teach us.
When I was growing up, and even later.. I was always expecting "the axe to fall".. (haven't heard that saying for a long time)
I hope you don't mind my saying, but I think of those as threats.. threatening spirits.. and I think you are right about relating more to the Lord and talking to Him more, about everything.. Another way of saying this might be that we need to dwell under the shadow of the Almighty and abide under His wing..
..and with these threats, I believe that if we "resist the devil, he will flee from us"
I actually think it's a miracle any of us are alive and breathing, for the enemy (Satan&co) would very much like to see us not living :smile:
And I think they come around and try to talk us into all kinds of things, like various illnesses, etc. It's just a theory of mine.
I once upon a time battled deep dark depression, and one of the things the Lord taught me was, not only to be renewed in the spirit of my mind via the word and its abiding in me, and my abiding in it, but also to monitor my thoughts, and every negative one, toss out, cross it out with a big X and replace it with a positive thought of praise and thanksgiving..
"whatsoever things are lovely, and of good report, think on these things".. away with you threat in the name of Jesus.. away with you fear, in the name of Jesus.. for "Jesus is Lord'.. and "the Lord is righteous He has cut asunder the cords of the wicked.." .."God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.." If demons hear the word of God (even in our mind?) they flee.. but they'll lurk! We need to put on and keep snug, the full armor of God.. "above all, the large covering shield of faith".. and when we pray, praise and, or give thanks, and abide in Him, i believe the Spirit of the LORD shines through us (like light) becoming a mighty covering shield..
All the best! and God bless!! :gsmile: :Pray:
Quote from: JonesHenry on May 06, 2015, 07:43:53 AM
QuoteMy :2c: I am 70 yrs. old with prostate cancer and if that does not cause my death something will cause me to quit this breath of life [which some contend is spirit] Alive= H2421 chay=to live. When I quit that breath my body(flesh-soil)will go back to the dust as with all flesh. I, that's me, see the word spirit in Ecc. 12:7 is the very breath I began with, yes in a sense it is spirit for He is the Father of "spirits." (Heb. 12:9)
Feeling really sorry for you. It might already be too late, but anyway, here are a couple of interesting links you should watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl8Y8I_TsjI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEQFno794s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHnO02G3qww
But it maybe already too late for you.
I know im going to get into trouble for this, but i would like you to contact me. There is something that i can do for you, but i cannot mention it here or i will get into trouble. Please contact me at
Joneshenry@hotmail.com
No worries here my friend, but thank you for your thoughts. HE IS RISEN :dsunny:
Lastpost and Marie Glen! I missed your posts, yet today I discovered the 'show new replies to your posts' button and there I found your very encouraging posts. Probably the right timing though.
Lastpost, it's not too strange at all, my spirit says yes all the time to your writing. I know what you're saying is so true. You know what I don't understand? I've experienced God's love, that is, he showed me his love on several occasions very clearly. I wonder why I still hold that distrust in my heart. :dunno2:
I long so much to be founded it that LOVE, in Him. I'd love to be filled with love that drives away all fear. To be free to love. I'd also love to be able to read the bible with eyes opened wide by the Spirit. I've had those moments, yet often my eyes seem to be closed and then it's a totally different book and I lay it aside.
Dear Abigail,
If I may say so, your heart and motives and honesty are as good as it gets. It seems to me that habits of thought and belief created from theological conviction which has run so deep over the years, are all that hinders you from being free from complete trust and faith in God - and I promise you God is synonymous with Love.
Following the Saviour Christ alone lets one become intimate with Him - for there are no secrets in Divine Love, and when one realises that He is hearing every whisper of one's heart, one knows He is Love - and He shows us the Father.
It will happen Abigail. Habits have a way of springing back on oneself like a rubber band. Once they are smoothed out, all will be well and you will never look back. Yet sometimes we must have patience while all things are worked out as the spirit within desires. I hope this helps somewhat.
May He grant you His Peace and His Joy in all its fullness!
One quits breathing the "breath of life".
Now comes the speculation and interpretation. I'm settled with the returning to the very soil from whence one came. The rest is the expectation and hope.
1Co 15:21 for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
A brilliant Pastor, whom I know, told a group of us, when were studying scripture, that, in this life, we live in time and space, but, when we die, we are no longer subject to time and space, but enter into the world of Eternity, with God. Up to about 2 weeks ago, I envisioned being saved by my faith, and that Jesus death and Resurrection had made me righteous. And, I believe I will be, but perhaps there will be a bit more. I did not believe that anything happened after death that could change our outcome. But now, I do. A bit of retro for me, from my 47 years as a Catholic, with Purgatory.
So, a 'cleansing', if needed, in some way, and then, onto Heaven? (Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. Matthew 5:26) Perhaps, simply seeing God, face to face, will, somehow, be a transforming event, which will 'cleanse' us?
Just some thoughts of the afterlife, now, in light of my belief in UR, which I have been exposed to for only about 4 months or so....in a tight nutshell.
:2c:
All of those thoughts are creditable. We see thru a glass darkly, but there are indications as I read the scriptures that overcomers will awaken to immediate and full joy. Some believers may need a little cleaning off of wood hay and stubble- maybe a lil touch up- as in saved but as thru fire(1 Cor 3). Since His eyes are as flames and His face like the sun shining in its strength- I think the idea of just being in His presence as transforming all as very likely- it is in fact what I believe the lake of fire is- standing in the midst of the great congregation before the Lord and all His holy messengers(angels and saints)- "Know you not you will judge the world?"
I mean, "He makes His messengers winds, His ministers flames of fire", so imagine it-
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Isnt it interesting how those verses end? And the chapter begins with 'we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses'....
It ends with- "Our God is a consuming fire"
I think Hebrews 12 is the lake of fire described in detail, but thats just one man's opinion.
"Know ye not you will judge angels?" "And the courts were seated and the books were opened and they were judged by the things written in the books"- What books?
The book of their own consciences.
"Their conscience either accusing or excusing them on the day when God judges the secrets mens hearts through Jesus Christ"(Rom 2)
Standing before the Lord, in the presence of the great congregation, every conscience will be laid bare by the fire in His eyes and the sword of His mouth until every knee bows and every tongue confesses and death is done away because sin is done away :o)
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2015, 02:53:44 AM
One quits breathing the "breath of life".
Now comes the speculation and interpretation. I'm settled with the returning to the very soil from whence one came. The rest is the expectation and hope.
1Co 15:21 for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
You do make me smile Micah, I understand you.
These words: "expectation" and "hope" are charged with meaning.
I hope I am forgiven if I stand on the rooftops and proclaim in faith the complete expectation and hope of the certainty of life after death of which the reappearance after death of the Lord Jesus Christ, and of the involvement of His Spirit in my life, assures me.
I am happy to do this - but please understand that I also believe that regret of the deepest kind will be mine if I do not proclaim it now, for I shall see that I did not do it when I could see it.
Till then, Peace and Joy
long time ago...I thought my life come from this body......I actually thought I was alive because of my body.....
........but in time...He showed me...that my body appeared alive[no life in it of itself/just dust] because of the
spirit of life that was in it. take the spirit of life out of the body...the body[dust] returns to it's dust state......
but the spirit..when it leaves the body returns unto the Father..is still alive and conscious.
example...the wind picks up the dust and clothes itself with it...and you behold a dust devil..moving around as
if it is alive. What you see dust/flesh has no life in it. But the life/spirit that is unseen is the real life
substitute the wind for spirit/breath and our body of dust
:thumbsup:
Hebrews 9 The Blood of Christ
11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,
a he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.
12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves;
but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtainingb eternal redemption.
13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God,
cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
:dsunny:
Thats a good one :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 04, 2015, 08:05:01 PM
All of those thoughts are creditable. We see thru a glass darkly, but there are indications as I read the scriptures that overcomers will awaken to immediate and full joy. Some believers may need a little cleaning off of wood hay and stubble- maybe a lil touch up- as in saved but as thru fire(1 Cor 3). Since His eyes are as flames and His face like the sun shining in its strength- I think the idea of just being in His presence as transforming all as very likely- it is in fact what I believe the lake of fire is- standing in the midst of the great congregation before the Lord and all His holy messengers(angels and saints)- "Know you not you will judge the world?"
Yes, eaglesway, this is what I picture, as well. Thank you.
Hoping I won't need the 'touch up'. :Gcry:
:iagree:
Arent we all.
As I see it, the touch up is not about perfect conduct. James said we all stumble in many ways. It is about humility and honesty.
"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
As long as we stay humble we have all the touch up we need, the blood of Jesus :o)